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Date: 08/26/12 04:50 PM

55 Responses to Can Companys MAKE You Campaign For Candidate?[Pic+

  1. Profile photo of ScottSerious
    ScottSerious Male 18-29
    5316 posts
    August 26, 2012 at 5:06 pm
    my dad gets a letter from his union all the time on what props to vote for and what candidate to vote for.
  2. Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    August 26, 2012 at 5:17 pm
    The political philosophy at work in this dispute is fascinating, truly. But I won`t bore you with that.
  3. Profile photo of OutWest
    OutWest Male 50-59
    546 posts
    August 26, 2012 at 5:46 pm
    LOL.... and Unions?
    Can my Union take money from my dues and give it to political causes, candidates or parties that I don`t support? Using my money to cancel my own vote? Without my approval?

    YES!

  4. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    August 26, 2012 at 5:51 pm
    If it isn`t part of their contract, then no the corporation can`t force them to do it to remain employed. It would be a breach of contract.
  5. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    August 26, 2012 at 5:56 pm
    No, they can`t. Unions can`t either. Any attempt by either to try is illegitimate.
  6. Profile photo of keith2
    keith2 Male 30-39
    2591 posts
    August 26, 2012 at 7:48 pm
    If you take a job at one of the auto plants here in Detroit, prepare for a week-long paid orientation (more like indoctrination). This is where you stay there all day (full 8 hours) in a large group while the UAW talking heads make you watch videos about how great unions are and how awful republicans are. They try and get people to join something called "V-Cap" which is basically just giving up some of your check along with union dues to further help the democratic agenda they`re desperately trying to push. You get to wear a nice cheap chinese made jacket with V-cap stitched on it, so we can tell who the idiots are right off rip. I hear Wal-Mart does something similar, just the polar opposite political ideology. Both suck for doing so.
  7. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    August 26, 2012 at 8:32 pm
    "the commissioners contend that the United Public Workers union (UPW) was within its legal right to require employees to "provide support for Hawaii Fist Congressional District candidate Colleen Hanabusa`s candidacy in a special congressional election on May 22, 2010."

    This case was about a UNION, not a company, compelling their members to campaign for them. I believe this case will be overturned, if for nothing else than it violates the employees own 1st amendment rights.
  8. Profile photo of BostonKaiser
    BostonKaiser Male 40-49
    1185 posts
    August 26, 2012 at 10:38 pm
    companies
  9. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36874 posts
    August 26, 2012 at 10:52 pm

    Unions do endorse candidates. Their paid workforce does the work of endorsing their chosen candidate. Could a secretary for the Teamsters refuse to type up copy for a pro-political ad? She`s a secretary! Do your damn job.
  10. Profile photo of gothmo
    gothmo Female 18-29
    1324 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 1:14 am
    Come on, companys? That hurts to type...
  11. Profile photo of dirtysteve00
    dirtysteve00 Male 30-39
    373 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 5:59 am
    Big difference between endorse and compel.

    The idea of compelling anyone to vote for any political persuasion is frightening.
  12. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 6:30 am
    You can voluntarily leave employment at any time (in the vast majority of cases at least). So no - neither a Union nor a company can FORCE you to campaign.
  13. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 6:33 am
    This case was about a UNION, not a company, compelling their members to campaign for them. I believe this case will be overturned, if for nothing else than it violates the employees own 1st amendment rights.>>>

    I could get a job at Obama Headquarters, refuse to do a dang thing that helps, sit back and collect my check. When the pink slip comes I will just plead free speech.

    By the way is there a union employees union??? Is suspect that they are union members. If the employees of the union refuse to do their job at the union, won`t the union have to picket the union.
  14. Profile photo of pumba62
    pumba62 Male 40-49
    1018 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 7:29 am
    nobody can force you to do something that is done in private
  15. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 7:29 am
    You can voluntarily leave employment at any time
    Well that`s easy to say if you don`t need the job or the medical benefits that go with it. In this economy just leaving a good-paying job isn`t a simple snap decision. Technically you`re right but don`t kid yourself that there is a fair choice to be made here.
  16. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 8:13 am
    >>>Well that`s easy to say if you don`t need the job or the medical benefits that go with it. In this economy just leaving a good-paying job isn`t a simple snap decision. Technically you`re right but don`t kid yourself that there is a fair choice to be made here.<<<

    That`s right and no company should ask its employees, those people that get paid from company funds, to do anything that promotes the company in any way, unless the employee just happens to want to that day. It is just not fair...sniff..
  17. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 8:17 am
    >>>>Well that`s easy to say if you don`t need the job or the medical benefits that go with it. In this economy just leaving a good-paying job isn`t a simple snap decision. Technically you`re right but don`t kid yourself that there is a fair choice to be made here.<<<

    On the other hand I recall that one of the reasons we started having unions was the old "company store" system. You remember when employees got paid with credits to the company store. They could only spend their wages at the store, were everything cost twice as much, but it was ok because credit was easy as long as you were an employee. See how far unions have taken us, see healthcare.
  18. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 8:38 am
    @dang007: Unless campaigning was in the job description, I don`t see how I should be coerced by my employer to do this. Also, membership in the union shouldn`t mean I have to do this either.
  19. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 8:40 am
    @patchgrabber: Technically you`re right but don`t kid yourself that there is a fair choice to be made here.
    There`s no "technically" about it. I didn`t say it was an easy decision, but you cannot be FORCED by a company to do something.
  20. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 9:28 am
    >>>@dang007: Unless campaigning was in the job description, I don`t see how I should be coerced by my employer to do this. Also, membership in the union shouldn`t mean I have to do this either.<<<

    Job description. What job description? A company hires you to work for its benefit while you are being paid. That`s the job description of every job.
  21. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 9:31 am
    There`s no "technically" about it.
    So you`re not technically correct? I don`t know what you`re arguing with me about here. And yes, companies can coerce. From Tom Ferguson:
    "American history is replete with examples of business groups and individual firms retaining vast armies of military and paramilitary forces for long periods of time. In the nineteenth century many railroads kept private armies. The Pennsylvania Coal and Iron Police ran their own Obrigkeitsstaat for decades. General Motors maintained the Black Legion; Ford sported a veritable Freikorps recruited by the notorious Henry Bennett; and any number of detective agencies, goon squads, “special consultants,” and wiretappers have also been active...Force on such a scale potentially menaces competitors, buyers, and suppliers almost as much as it does workers."
  22. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 9:33 am
    @patchgrabber: And yes, companies can coerce
    I agree - companies can COERCE. Yet, as I have continued to state, companies cannot FORCE. Please do not forget, I am defending; this is an argument you started with me.
  23. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 9:36 am
    I agree - companies can COERCE
    From Merriam-Webster:
    coerce: Definition of COERCE

    1: to restrain or dominate by force
    2: to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing>
    3: to achieve by force or threat <coerce compliance>
  24. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 9:39 am
    @patchgrabber: I`m glad you referenced the dictionary. I expect that everyone (except you apparently) understands that by FORCE, I mean physically compel.

    I will try to be more specific for you in the future.
  25. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 9:44 am
    @HA: And so the example of railroad companies having private armies which they used to force people to do things isn`t physical force by a company then?
  26. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 9:45 am
    @patchgrabber: And so the example of railroad companies having private armies which they used to force people to do things isn`t physical force by a company then?
    I think you understand that this does not happen and that we currently have a voluntary system of employment.

    Also, you have consistently used the "no references to the past because that was then and this is now" argument against me (previous debates). I expect you to follow your own expectations of others.

    By this standard, your argument is null.
  27. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 9:48 am
    > Forced - Coerce<

    You guys are splitting a hair to fine to begin with.

    Companies do not nor can they legally FORCE you to do anything, unless you include contract enforcement. You are not required to be an employee OR a customer (at least not yet) of any company. The things patchgrabber refers to did happen in the past, but any rational review of the actions taken at the time under current law would find them unlawful. Companies have one recourse if you do not do what they want, outside a contract, fire you. You have a similar option, quit.
  28. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 9:56 am
    Also, you have consistently used the "no references to the past because that was then and this is now"
    But it is relevant in the context of our argument. You say that it is impossible for a company to force you to do something, you didn`t specify that in our time it`s impossible. I have shown that in any accumulation of money, authority and power lead to coercion, whether it be government or not. Just because the railroad companies did this in the past doesn`t mean it`s invalid as an example of a company using force.
  29. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 9:58 am
    Companies do not nor can they legally FORCE you to do anything,
    The word "legally" is just you splitting hairs now. Whether legal or not, the argument was whether they CAN.
  30. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 9:59 am
    Companies have one recourse if you do not do what they want, outside a contract, fire you.

    Actually no they can`t. They`d have to show how you were failing to meet standards laid out in the contract. Now if the contract said "the company reserves the right terminate our contractual relationship at any time for any reason" then it wouldn`t be outside of the contract.
  31. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 10:06 am
    On the other hand, most companies would hurt their own PR if they did exercise this right. While their newest members may not be fortunate their senior members wouldn`t be hard pressed to find a job elsewhere.
  32. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 10:34 am
    @patchgrabber: You say that it is impossible for a company to force you to do something, you didn`t specify that in our time it`s impossible.
    Is that really going to be the argument you use? I`m very certain that everyone here understands that we are speaking about the current environment.

    Afterall, is in not scientific to make assessments based on the scope of your inquiry? This article is "current" and was not written during the timeframe you reference.

    What`s amazing me is that you actually agreed with me to begin with, and are now arguing with me. You admitted that in the strict sense of the word, a company cannot force you because you can leave. Based on this, it is fair to assess that the employee makes a choice to stay because the pros are better than the cons. Hence, they are not forced. This does not imply that they were not coerced.
  33. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2345 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 10:50 am
    hmm let`s see, if it wasn`t part of the description of the job when you were hired you cannot be made to do something outside of the job you were hired for that is completely unrelated to your job.

    this election comittie is NOT a court of law and I promise you when this hits a real court the lawsuit will be big, nasty and not go the GOPs way.

    btw, how many of you still want to be part of the GOP...I mean really, when a party resorts to FORCING their employees to work for a political candidate against their will or get fired there is NO WAY anyone with a brain can support such a fanatical and rights abusing party.
  34. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 10:54 am
    @jamie76: when a party resorts to FORCING their employees to work for a political candidate against their will or get fired there is NO WAY anyone with a brain can support such a fanatical and rights abusing party
    When a president resorts to using military assets to assassinate a US citizen, then there is NO WAY any person with reasonable intelligence can support him; it is such a blatant abuse of rights.

    See, we can all do it.
  35. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2345 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 10:55 am
    GOP

    the party of forced labor.

    only a matter of time before they stopped the pretense and admitted to being the right wing facist we have always known them to be.

    first, they ruled companies are PEOPLE (WTF???) and now they ruled those people can force you to do their bidding even if it is unrelated to your job.

    this of course won`t stand for long, the GOP is pretty much done at this point.
  36. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2345 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 10:56 am
    HumanAction

    and you are talking about what exactly?

    oh that`s right you are just making crap up.

    NEXT
  37. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 10:58 am
    @jamie76: Anwar al-Awlaki

    I see you`ve done your homework. NEXT.
  38. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 10:58 am
    @HA: My initial agreement was that they cannot force you to stay employed, but then the argument was shifted to whether a corporation can force you to do "something" as you put it. I would still maintain that *current* usage of PMCs by NGOs includes use of force in other countries under the ostensible role of "security." But if you want to maintain that in the US a company cannot force you to do something, I would still debate that, however that would be a more philosophical debate on what constitutes force, and how it is applied. I don`t really have the time today for any more debating, so I will just say that companies are, at least in the US, as you suggest, not necessarily able to physically force you to do something against your will.
  39. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 11:01 am
    @patchgrabber: however that would be a more philosophical debate on what constitutes force, and how it is applied
    I can agree with that notion, as we likely do not agree on the definition of `force` or what constitutes `force` in this case.
  40. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 11:03 am
    >>>Actually no they can`t. They`d have to show how you were failing to meet standards laid out in the contract. Now if the contract said "the company reserves the right terminate our contractual relationship at any time for any reason" then it wouldn`t be outside of the contract.<<<


    Actually, yes they can. No contract who is going to stop them.
  41. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 11:06 am
    <<<<The word "legally" is just you splitting hairs now. Whether legal or not, the argument was whether they CAN.>>>>

    And I can call a can of beans caviar it doesn`t make it so. Can a company build a privet army, break the law and send you to their private brain washing camp. Well I guess they could, but then I guess we were talking about a decision of a governmental board, not hypothetical questions such as whether the aliens want our brains or our water.
  42. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 11:08 am
    >>>hmm let`s see, if it wasn`t part of the description of the job when you were hired you cannot be made to do something outside of the job you were hired for that is completely unrelated to your job. <<<

    No they can make you thanks for making my point and Human Actions point. You can always quit.
  43. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 11:13 am
    Germany,1938 did the same thing.Welcome your new masters.
  44. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 11:25 am
    No contract who is going to stop them.

    Since when is one`s obligation to a contract something outside of what`s in it?
  45. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 11:32 am
    @Cajun247 Again you miss my point.

    If you have a contract then the company and you have the right to use the courts to compel the other party to do what is required by the contract. If there is NO contract a company can not compel you to work, nor can you prevent a company from requiring you to perform a given task as part of your job. Thus in the absence of a contract a company can not "force" you to do something, nor must they retain your employment if you refuse to perform a task.
  46. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 11:34 am
    must they retain your employment if you refuse to perform a task.

    But isn`t employment a contractual relationship?
  47. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 11:37 am
    >>>But isn`t employment a contractual relationship?<<<

    Now you are just sh///tttn me right?
  48. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 11:49 am
    Now you are just sh///tttn me right?

    What do YOU think employment is?
  49. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 11:53 am
    Actually, I agree with you both @dang007, and @Cajun247.

    Employment, to me, is contractual in nature regardless of a physical contract (there are verbal contracts afterall). However, without a clear and concise physical contract, employment is "at will."

    That being said, even "at will" employment favors the employee. Afterall, and employee can quit (terminate the contract) for any reason while the employer cannot. Consider this: an employee can quit a job because the boss is black. However, an employer cannot fire someone (terminate the contract) because they are black.

    What I`m getting at is that, at the end of the day, the employee has the ultimate power - they can leave for any reason. With this in mind, I cannot conceive (barring criminal action) how a business could force an employee to perform an action against their will.
  50. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 12:25 pm
    @HumanAction

    That sums it up nicely. I`m employed at FedEx, it may not be explicitly called a contract, but me and FedEx have our own copy of the "agreement" between us.
  51. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 3:55 pm
    Okay, I realize *this* case was about a union, but doesn`t the question still stand. By the same logic covered here, couldn`t a company (an independent entity with rights under Citizen`s United) compel its employees to campaign for a candidate?
  52. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 3:58 pm
    And I don`t have an agenda here, I`m genuinely asking! Also, I apologize for the misspelling of "companys" if, in fact, my submission was spelled that way (and I have a feeling it was)! And if so, dang, I`m ashamed. :-(
  53. Profile photo of OutWest
    OutWest Male 50-59
    546 posts
    August 27, 2012 at 5:02 pm
    I`ve never had a private employer ask me to campaign or support any politician. Usually politics, like religion is not typically discussed at work by management to employee.

    This is a trojan horse to imply that private business is playing dirty pool. When in fact Unions come closer to the deep end of that pool than any employer I`ve ever worked for.
  54. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14657 posts
    August 28, 2012 at 12:58 am
    I would not want belligerent volunteers on a campaign. It is easier to do harm to a campaign than good.

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