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Category: Science
Date: 07/18/12 09:10 AM

32 Responses to More 4-Dimension Objects: The Klein Bottle

  1. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 12:49 am
    Link: More 4-Dimension Objects: The Klein Bottle - This is a Klein Bottle: a 4-D object that is `non-orientable.` It is to 4-D what a Mobius Strip is to 3-D.
  2. Profile photo of JaLacaob
    JaLacaob Male 18-29
    1647 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 9:22 am

    Forgive my physics stupidity, but how can they represent a 4D model in a 3D engine? How can they represent a 4D object in our 3D perception?
  3. Profile photo of klaxor
    klaxor Male 18-29
    646 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 9:22 am
    BORING

    It looks like a pooty french horn
  4. Profile photo of Angelmassb
    Angelmassb Male 18-29
    15511 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 9:28 am
    The 3D shadow of a 4D object
  5. Profile photo of JaLacaob
    JaLacaob Male 18-29
    1647 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 9:34 am

    Moments later, after doing some googling, I found some.. stuff. http://eusebeia.dyndns.org/4d/cubinder

    However, while I get the `idea`, I still think it`s ridiculous to try and present a 4D object in only 3 dimensions... I`m all for breaching new territory in science, but seriously, it`s kind of like trying to show color to a blind person. The blind person is never going to see what you want them to see, just as we are not going to be able to see 4D in our 3D world, currently.
  6. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 9:37 am

    >>>Forgive my physics stupidity, but how can they represent a 4D model in a 3D engine? How can they represent a 4D object in our 3D perception?<<<


    In the same way that you can represent a 3-dimensional object like a cube in 2D by projecting it onto a 2D surface:



    You can also project a 4D object like a Klein bottle or the tesseract that I posted about the other week onto three dimensional space. When you do, you see the 3D `shadow` of that 4D object. That`s what you`re seeing in this video: the shadow of a Klein bottle in 3D as it rotates in a fourth spatial dimension.
  7. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 9:38 am

    A Klein Bottle has some remarkable properties. Like a Mobius strip, it only has one edge. But unlike a Mobius strip it has no boundary, and doesn`t intersect itself (although 3D projections of it appear to, just as the squares that make up a cube appear to overlap when projected onto 2D).
  8. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7559 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 9:58 am
    FFS - I am honestly not an idiot- but I think visually and this gives me a headache!!
  9. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 10:04 am

    It gets interesting when you consider that the Universe itself is also an object that (from our 3D perspective at least) has only one surface and no known boundary.
  10. Profile photo of Mikeoxsbiggg
    Mikeoxsbiggg Male 30-39
    1502 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 10:26 am
    You can accually buy one. It`s glass and 3d. Looks good on my mantle. Here. Acme Klein
  11. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14621 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 10:49 am
    They`re a biatch to use. You get an air-lock that prevents the wine from pouring.
  12. Profile photo of mamba
    mamba Male 18-29
    628 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 11:26 am
    Most certainly a very awesome shape, although not very interesting if you don`t know much about maths.
  13. Profile photo of TheGuySmiley
    TheGuySmiley Male 18-29
    1243 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 3:46 pm
    where can we get the 4d glasses?
  14. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 4:43 pm
    Ugh. No. Just... no.

    A Klein bottle is *not* 4D, it`s a 3D object with a single contiguous surface and no edges. Basically, it`s the 3D equivalent of a Möbius strip.

    They`re quite interesting in and of themselves, you don`t need to make up stuff about them being 4D somehow.

    Wikipedia: Klein bottle
  15. Profile photo of JaLacaob
    JaLacaob Male 18-29
    1647 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 6:54 pm
    MacGuffin: I disagree. That only works, again, because our brains work in a `three dimensional world`, but the cube representing a 3D object on a 2D plane isn`t `3D` either, and so if you have someone who doesn`t understand the third dimension, that is not going to be sufficient to teach it.
  16. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 10:35 pm
    I still count the hole in the side as an edge.
  17. Profile photo of robosnitz
    robosnitz Male 40-49
    2737 posts
    July 19, 2012 at 12:13 am
    Looks like a failed attempt at a bong.
  18. Profile photo of taylor_stone
    taylor_stone Male 30-39
    2688 posts
    July 19, 2012 at 3:14 am
    Someone has a failed interpretation of what 4D means... This is a 3D object that doubles back the envelopes itself on one end... As previously stated, it`s nothing more than a 3D version of a Möbius Strip.
  19. Profile photo of kingdomCome
    kingdomCome Male 18-29
    338 posts
    July 19, 2012 at 5:46 am
    So many people confusing a concept with a nice glass trinket for keeping wine badly
  20. Profile photo of doug1963aaa
    doug1963aaa Male 40-49
    347 posts
    July 19, 2012 at 8:02 am
    This is not a 4-d representation. The Klein Bottle is a surface that only appears to not intersect itself in 4-space. What you are seeing is a 3-d Klein Bottle being rotated in 4-space and being projected into 2-space. The tell-tale is when the object appears to flatten itself during rotation.
  21. Profile photo of ssalty
    ssalty Male 60-69
    228 posts
    July 19, 2012 at 8:41 am
    BZZZT! but thanks for playing. Now go away.
  22. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 19, 2012 at 10:20 am

    MacGuffin: I disagree. That only works, again, because our brains work in a `three dimensional world`, but the cube representing a 3D object on a 2D plane isn`t `3D` either, and so if you have someone who doesn`t understand the third dimension, that is not going to be sufficient to teach it.
    Whether you "disagree" or not isn`t relevant. I wasn`t trying to convince you of anything, I was merely stating a mathematical fact that exists whether you`re aware of it and recognise it or not. It`s not a matter of opinion.

    You can project a 3D object onto a 2D surface, and you can project a 4D object into 3D space. Whether you understand/agree with these undisputed concepts or not is immaterial. You might as well disagree with gravity.
  23. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 19, 2012 at 10:40 am

    This is not a 4-d representation.
    Nobody said that it was. It`s a 3D projection of a 4D object.

    The Klein Bottle is a surface that only appears to not intersect itself in 4-space.
    It doesn`t just appear not to self-intersect. It really doesn`t intersect itself in 4D. Just as the squares that comprise the 2D projection of a 3D cube I showed below really are clearly separated once you can see the object they represent in full 3D.

    ...
  24. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 19, 2012 at 10:40 am

    What you are seeing is a 3-d Klein Bottle being rotated in 4-space and being projected into 2-space. The tell-tale is when the object appears to flatten itself during rotation.
    That`s incorrect. It`s a 3D projection of a 4D Klein Bottle. If you look at the video carefully you`ll see that the bottle never completely "flattens". Only parts of it appear to as those parts briefly sit at right angles to two or more of the three dimensions that make up 3D space. Those parts which appear flat at any one time, are actually sitting at 90 degrees perpendicular to at least two of the axes that make up 3D space at those points. We get the same view at those moments as a 2D being would get of a flat square seen edge-on.
  25. Profile photo of keith2
    keith2 Male 30-39
    2588 posts
    July 19, 2012 at 2:51 pm
    When I imagine a 4th dimension to space, I`ve imagined myself sprinting in one direction, looking as if I`ve stayed in the same position in 3d space but becoming ever smaller as if I`ve ran a 1/4 mile away.
  26. Profile photo of keith2
    keith2 Male 30-39
    2588 posts
    July 19, 2012 at 2:52 pm
    Up, down, left, right, forward, backwards... in, out.
  27. Profile photo of doug1963aaa
    doug1963aaa Male 40-49
    347 posts
    July 19, 2012 at 3:41 pm
    @MacGuffin--a 4-d Klein Surface would not show an intersection and would rotate without any flattening.

    This is a matter of some expertise for me.
  28. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    July 19, 2012 at 11:14 pm
    Yeah, I uhhh... have *no* idea what`s going on here.

    ~looks for this thread`s exit~
  29. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 4:17 am
    @MacGuffin: I don`t know why you keep insisting that Klein bottles are 4D objects when they are clearly NOT.

    Seriously, no part of a Klein bottle needs to project into the 4th dimension for it to be a Klein bottle, therefore it is, by definition, *not* a 4D object.

    Hell, you can *buy* Klein bottles!
    http://www.kleinbottle.com/

    Since we cannot build 4D objects, doesn`t that prove to you that they`re *not* 4D?!?

    (Or do you have some strange definition of 4D that most of us don`t use?)
  30. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 1:26 pm

    @MacGuffin--a 4-d Klein Surface would not show an intersection and would rotate without any flattening.

    This is a matter of some expertise for me.
    Again, this is a *3D projection* of a 4D Klein Bottle. Nobody is saying that it is the 4D object itself. If it was, we`d be unable to perceive it, since we live in 3D.

    I guess it`s not that much of an area of expertise for you, or you`d be able to understand that simple concept.
  31. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 1:37 pm

    >>>@MacGuffin: I don`t know why you keep insisting that Klein bottles are 4D objects when they are clearly NOT.

    ...

    Hell, you can *buy* Klein bottles!
    http://www.kleinbottle.com/ <<<


    Well, if you can *buy* 3D projections of the real thing on the internet and everything, that *must* prove that the 4D object that said 3D projection is a projection of can`t exist.

    Read this, then realise how mistaken you are. To quote:

    "While the Möbius strip can be embedded in three-dimensional Euclidean space R3, the Klein bottle cannot. It can be embedded in R4, however."

    As I said, this *is* a 3D projection of such an embedding in R4 - that`s how the object is shown to pass through itself. That only happens in 4D.
  32. Profile photo of doug1963aaa
    doug1963aaa Male 40-49
    347 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 6:54 pm
    @MacGuffin: I have written software that allows one to visualise true 4-d objects in 3-d using 3-d glasses. I have spent a good amount of time over the last 30 years working on it, and I have gained a solid understanding of 4-d geometry in the process.

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