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Date: 07/21/12 10:50 AM

45 Responses to Britain maimed, tortured or killed 90,000 Kenyans

  1. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 18, 2012 at 12:56 am
    Link: Britain maimed, tortured or killed 90,000 Kenyans - ...during the `50s Mau Mau rebellion. And today`s government still refuses to pay compensation to the victims.
  2. Profile photo of beternal
    beternal Male 18-29
    2589 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 1:02 am
    Yeah it happened... but it`s on par with America not clearing all those unexploded bombs out of Vietnam
  3. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 11:09 am

    >>>Yeah it happened... but it`s on par with America not clearing all those unexploded bombs out of Vietnam<<<


    Nice to know that ad hominem tu quoque isn`t exclusively an American thing. What America may have done during the Vietnam War is irrelevant to this issue.
  4. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2346 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 11:40 am
    I lived and worked in Kenya (Nairobi, Eldoret and Kisumu) for a few years, the Mau Mau (which means run, run) happened and yes the British did horrible things but even before the rebellion happened the did far worse things.

    then, when England had no money let after WWII they started dumping their colonies and in 1963 they dumped Kenya, overnight and left them with no experience on how to run an organized Western Style government and ZERO dollars to do it on.

    you know what happened from there...
  5. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3907 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 11:45 am
    @beternal - Really?! The level of stupidity in your comment is astounding!!!
  6. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 12:37 pm
    Everyone seems to be a victim in today`s society. Everyone wants their hands on some free stuff they deserve because of what happened way back when.

    Let me tell you, there is not enough money in the world to "pay for" all the injustice that has occurred in the world. Moreover, why would money even right this wrong? It`s just money. It`s almost insulting....imagine if you rape somebody and then offer them a thousand bucks after it`s all done to make it right. It`s just weird.
  7. Profile photo of drawman61
    drawman61 Male 50-59
    7707 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 12:49 pm
    We`re paying for it big-time. They can come and live here, claim benefits, cars, houses the lot.
  8. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    Moreover, why would money even right this wrong? It`s just money.
    Who said it would right this wrong?

    It would make the victims` lives easier now. And it would punish the society that wronged them. Nobody is suggesting it would make the past right.

    Similarly, the reparations paid after the World Wars of the twentieth century didn`t make the wartime actions of those that paid them right. It doesn`t mean the reparations were a bad idea.
  9. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 1:12 pm

    We`re paying for it big-time. They can come and live here, claim benefits, cars, houses the lot.
    No, they can`t. Kenyans have no de facto right of residence in the EU.
  10. Profile photo of swoop408
    swoop408 Male 18-29
    1754 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 1:17 pm
    Oh England...ya bastards!
  11. Profile photo of paddy215
    paddy215 Male 18-29
    1677 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 1:29 pm
    If Britain admitted financial responsibility for the horrible atrocities the nation has committed in the past they could borrow every pound, euro, dollar, lira, yen etc.. in the world and still be billions short.
  12. Profile photo of Evil_Eye
    Evil_Eye Male 18-29
    1443 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 1:57 pm
    Oh we have a much longer and more bloody history then this. It is not like we don`t do anything to try and make amends...

    Aim some of that billion towards the victems?
  13. Profile photo of boogarcym
    boogarcym Male 40-49
    316 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 2:05 pm
    England <> Britain
  14. Profile photo of randomxnp
    randomxnp Male 30-39
    1293 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 2:20 pm
    MacGuffin

    Who said they had any rights to do so? Since when did that stop anyone.

    The Mau Mau were violent communist-inspired rebels who had little popular support yet caused a lot of death and suffering. who have they compensated? No communists have ever paid for the tens of millions killed and billions harmed by this horrific, inhuman ideology.

    One can have sympathy for those who suffered, and can condemn acts that were carried out, but must recognise the necessity of defeating the Mau Mau and the far greater harm caused by the rebels.
  15. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    Who said they had any rights to do so? Since when did that stop anyone.
    It would help a great deal if you spoke more clearly. I`ve literally no idea who you mean by "they" and "do so" in the sentence above.

    ...
  16. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 2:46 pm

    The Mau Mau were violent communist-inspired rebels who had little popular support yet caused a lot of death and suffering. who have they compensated? No communists have ever paid for the tens of millions killed and billions harmed by this horrific, inhuman ideology.
    And none of the people seeking compensation in this court case were members of the Mau Mau. One of them was a 15 year old girl that was repeatedly raped. Another was a man that had his penis cut off.

    And even if we were talking about actual Mau Mau members, would that mean they shouldn`t be entitled to compensation too? What about members of the French Resistance that were tortured during WWII? Or is it only white `terrorists` that we uphold the human rights of?
  17. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 3:06 pm
    @randomxnp: By your logic, any ideology that undertakes a war to assert itself over the currently used one is horrible and inhumane.

    Think of all the poor souls lost in the revolutionary war, all for the sake of cruel and unfeeling democracy.
  18. Profile photo of xiquiripat
    xiquiripat Male 18-29
    2423 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 6:24 pm
    Empires are a source of suffering and moral rot and the resistances they create are rarely any better. At least if the British had invested in Kenya in the way they did with India something good could have come of it.
  19. Profile photo of Angelmassb
    Angelmassb Male 18-29
    15511 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 7:05 pm
    But of course, nothing happens because "It`s a First World thing"
  20. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14544 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 8:31 pm
    meh. Forgive and forget.
  21. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36182 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 9:53 pm

    Bygones.
  22. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    July 21, 2012 at 10:33 pm
    The British Empire killed and tortured a lot of people they considered `heathens`, back in the day, in many locations. India, China, Africa, Australia and the Americas, natives of most all those `colonies` were treated badly.

    But you don`t see the others suing England for reparations.
  23. Profile photo of Listypoos
    Listypoos Male 40-49
    3069 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 1:07 am
    yeah we did awful poo... and still do - but did anyone really think we built the largest empire that civilisation has ever known (by land area) by holding coffee mornings and sit-down meetings? No... we went wherever we could and either lied, cheated, or killed little brown folks for it.

    Should we try and take back some moral highground by apologizing and making reparations? Of course. It would set an example that few other countries would be willing to follow, but an example that at least would do some repair to our reputation.

    These days the Mau Mau (as they were then) would be labelled terrorists... because it`s us they were rebelling against. Take a look at Libya though... where we classed violent protesters as freedom fighters so we could justify bombing them and overthrowing the government we didn`t like - that`s how it works like it or not... those we like are freedom fighters, those we don`t like are terrorists.
  24. Profile photo of Hedkwab
    Hedkwab Male 18-29
    340 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 3:09 am
    White Guilt spreads to Europe!
  25. Profile photo of randomxnp
    randomxnp Male 30-39
    1293 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 5:03 am
    MacGuffin

    The point is that your comment is unbalanced. I agreed that the British did some terrible things there. I don`t know the source of your 90,000 figure, so its accuracy cannot be judged in any way.

    However the choice was never between British rule and paradise on Earth. the choice was not between British resistance to the Mau Mau, with many innocent casualties, and peace and puppies for everyone.

    That is the problem with taking cases like this and blaming one party. The alternative would often have been far, far worse.

    The point I made about the communists is that the alternative would, we know, have been far better in every case, in addition to the saving of the lives the communists destroyed. It is relevant to this case because the Mau Mau were inspired partly by communism, and looking at the history of much of Africa the alternative to what actually occurred was probably communism.
  26. Profile photo of photomstr
    photomstr Male 50-59
    766 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 5:23 am
    That was 50 yrs ago. Does anybody really care? War sux but man has been doing it since he first got off of all fours and learned to walk. We are the only species smart enough to screw each other over. Some accomplishment to be proud of eh? This is just another grab for free money by a failed government lacking the balls to actually improve their own lot in life. Don`t believe reparations would actually get to people that need it . . .
  27. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 5:54 am

    Bygones
    So, by the same token you Americans should stop bitching about 911, al Quaida in general, present-day Iran just because they stormed your embassy 30 years ago, and not to mention all those millions of convicted citizens you should let out of prison immediately.......because all that stuff they did is in the past, right?
  28. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 5:55 am

    The British Empire killed and tortured a lot of people they considered `heathens`, back in the day, in many locations. India, China, Africa, Australia and the Americas, natives of most all those `colonies` were treated badly.

    But you don`t see the others suing England for reparations.
    And what is your point?
  29. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 6:14 am
    I work for a lady who worked in Kenya and lived through MauMau. it was pretty grim by all accounts- terrible violence all round. Many Africans were butchered by other tribes or factions, and many were in daily fear for their lives. Not in any way saying what we did was right, but there are two sides to this, and by the mores of the time the British actions were not quite so bad. Another era- one we should learn from and not repeat- but people thought differently then...
  30. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 6:48 am

    ...by the mores of the time the British actions were not quite so bad...
    Come off it, madduck. The mass rape of 15-year-old girls and the widespread mutilation of men by cutting off their genitals is bad by anybody`s mores, however many people supported it and looked the other way at the time it was happening. Was the Holocaust right because it was deemed acceptable by the mores of the Third Reich?
  31. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 6:51 am

    >>>The point is that your comment is unbalanced. I agreed that the British did some terrible things there. I don`t know the source of your 90,000 figure, so its accuracy cannot be judged in any way.<<<

    The figure I used comes from this BBC article, which in turn quotes The Kenya Human Rights Commission:

    "The Kenya Human Rights Commission has said 90,000 Kenyans were executed, tortured or maimed during the crackdown, and 160,000 were detained in appalling conditions.

    David Anderson, professor of African Politics at Oxford University, says he estimates the death toll in the conflict to have been as high as 25,000."

    So now you know the source.
  32. Profile photo of Grumpdock
    Grumpdock Male 13-17
    317 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 11:15 am
    Yes, big powerful empires/superpowers throughout history tend to do morally objectionable sh*t. Please tell us more admiral obvious.

    Kenya is a better country today because of us.
  33. Profile photo of klaxor
    klaxor Male 18-29
    646 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 11:53 am
    "Kenya is a better country today because of us."

    Well that`s some dumb poo to say
  34. Profile photo of klaxor
    klaxor Male 18-29
    646 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 11:54 am
    no no no... I said S.H.I.T...
  35. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 12:25 pm
    I know mcGuffin- but I know at some point during that time a compound on her parents farm was got at and most in it were killed- and very nastily- children too. She will not go into details as she found some of the bodies and it still upsets her- but her father had given his workers guns to protect themselves, sadly they did not get a chance to use them. I am not excusing it at all- just pointing out that the British responded to an uprising in kind- and then some. No- the Holocaust was not right either- but when we look at historical events we need to look at them in context. Why did Hilter get to the point where he could enact the Holocaust- because he was seem by the German people as a hero. I repeat- what we did was not right- but we need to look at the whole picture in context- obviously it was a nasty dirty time- if not it would not have been kept so quiet. Africa was brutal- still is in places- and sadly things like this are all too common.
  36. Profile photo of robosnitz
    robosnitz Male 40-49
    2737 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 12:31 pm
    Britain has it`s own problems with the bad teeth,and keeping the royal family happy.
  37. Profile photo of klaxor
    klaxor Male 18-29
    646 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 1:22 pm
    Any argument against paying back these 3 people is invalid as long as the queen keeps wearing the crown jewels, many of which came from mines that belonged to colonized countries.
  38. Profile photo of tsiemens
    tsiemens Male 30-39
    515 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 1:55 pm
    How does Obama feel about this?
  39. Profile photo of collegebound
    collegebound Male 18-29
    3745 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 3:42 pm
    kinda like how the US still hasn`t paid reparations to african americans? don`t poo talk about other countries. apparently we`ve gotten past that so get past this too...
  40. Profile photo of alpensepp
    alpensepp Male 70 & Over
    1364 posts
    July 22, 2012 at 3:53 pm
    the only ones who ever paid for the genocide they comitted are the evil germans.
  41. Profile photo of 8BitHero
    8BitHero Male 18-29
    5414 posts
    July 23, 2012 at 8:31 am
    What a scumbag government.
  42. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    July 23, 2012 at 8:46 am
    UK likes to dish it out but can`t take it when they get they`re own medicine. Why don`t you guys tell us what you sprayed jewish refugees down with after WW2 while you`re at it. Then give the queen another raise and give the prince the highest military rank possible! Wonder what that pays?
  43. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    July 23, 2012 at 8:50 am
    kinda like how the US still hasn`t paid reparations to african americans?

    For something that happen generations ago? Besides it`s called welfare. I guess I got a check coming from the UK too then....
  44. Profile photo of collegebound
    collegebound Male 18-29
    3745 posts
    July 24, 2012 at 5:33 am
    McGovern1981: what are you getting at? this happened years ago as well...that just makes it worse :| its something that was supposed to have been done a long time ago but they haven`t and obviously won`t do.

    all im saying is that dont go trying to drill holes in other peoples boats when you yourself dont even have all your leaks checked out.
  45. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    July 24, 2012 at 6:05 am
    @college

    1950s and 1960s means people that it happened to may still be alive tell me when you were a slave? Are you a vampire?

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