No Breaks For Vets In The Iraq War [Pic]

Submitted by: [email protected] 5 years ago in

If an Iraqi War vet can"t get a chance, what are the odds for a slob like myself?
There are 131 comments:
Male 10,855
Lastly as MeGrendel pointed out the UN is the most corrupt and incompetent organization on the planet. Which goes to show that generally more govt equals more problems misery for everyone all around. While you scoff at the legitimacy of the US govt, most UN resolutions barely have, if any, weight thrown behind them. Meanwhile when the SCOTUS makes a decision, it is a binding decision with the full weight of the govt behind it.
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Male 10,855
[quote]that`s a jurisdiction in which torture, kidnapping and drone strikes on its own citizens have been declared `legal`, which tells you everything you need to know about the legitimacy of that legal system. Most tellingly though, if Obama had broken even US law, why wasn`t he impeached for doing so? Are you guys having trouble finding him or something? He`s in that big house painted white on Pennsylvania Avenue.[/quote]

Because apparently niether the Supreme Court nor Congress can summon the balls necessary to curtail his power, which is frightening IMO. You`re absolutely right Obama should be and Bush should`ve been impeached for their gross transgressions against the constitution.
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Male 1,243
What more would you expect from a nation that heralds the religion of money?
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Male 7,378
Male 15,832
He should have sent some money home.
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Male 8,415
MacGuffin-"Nick Clegg, Deputy Prime Minister of the UK,"

Nick Clegg, Deputy Prime Minister of the UK`s opinion on the matter means exactly....dick.

MacGuffin-"US law is irrelevant in determining the legality of wars"

For wars involving the US, it certainly does.

MacGuffin-"If a conflict between nations has a UN sanction, it`s legal."

Incorrect. Your sadly misplaced belief in the corrupt organization called the UN is humerous. They do not run the world, nor do they have any legal premise on which to authorize, forbid or limit war.

dm2754-"looks like i win this argument and you now bore me. so later "

Aw man, just LOVE that `logic`. "I win because I SAY I win and I`m going to put my hands over my ears and yell `LA LA LA CAN`T HEAR YOU` until you leave."
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Female 2,602
[quote]The president still must have authorization from the US congress, to deploy forces in another country.[/quote]

US law is irrelevant in determining the legality of wars: wars occur between nation states, often surprisingly without the US even being party to them. If a conflict between nations has a UN sanction, it`s legal. Whether the parties to it cleared their actions domestically is an entirely different and irrelevant matter.

And frankly, even if you were talking only about the limited scope of US law, that`s a jurisdiction in which torture, kidnapping and drone strikes on its own citizens have been declared `legal`, which tells you everything you need to know about the legitimacy of that legal system. Most tellingly though, if Obama had broken even US law, why wasn`t he impeached for doing so? Are you guys having trouble finding him or something? He`s in that big house painted white on Pennsylvania Avenue.
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Male 1,582
I read the title as "No Breaks For Veterinarians In The Iraq War"
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Male 10,855
[quote] not a single foreign army have occupied the libyan territory.[/quote]

Sorry but a no fly zone IS an act of war. It is a violation of the target country`s sovereignty.
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Male 10,855
[quote] And Cajun247 Lybia in not in the middle east.[/quote]

Your condescending remark is duly noted. Secondly intervention IS war.
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Male 10,855
[quote] As pf said, the intervention/war/killings in Libya weren`t illegal, they were sanctioned under UN Resolutions 1970 & 1973[/quote]

The president still must have authorization from the US congress, to deploy forces in another country.
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Male 2,419
That makes me all the more angry with the people who misled/ decieved/took advantage of the human desire to do the right thing. And i feel all the more sympathy for those who were led astray and now have to deal with the consequences of that. That to me is the real crime. i hope that you can find some valua in this, i`d regret to think you set your standards so high that the world is filled with evil people.
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Male 2,419
But i can`t walk past my conviction, that not all humans are bad, that sometimes behind a bad action there is good intention, that sometimes people who do want to do the right thing are led astray by people who have a differnt agenda. and following that line of thought i can`t condem all soldiers as war criminals. That would place a burden of ethical and logical reasoning/insight on someone that very few in history have been able to bear. i`ve failed that myself on one sad occasion were i beat a guy to pulp becuase the situation and the girl in question sugested that he was violating her rights, only afterwards did i find out she was a manipulative vengefull "person" trust me, i never felt so low in my live.
maybe it`s becuase i`ve been wrong before, or maybe becuase i`m an idealst but i refuse to accept that noone has good intentions, even if they partook in a war that was funded on deceptive or manipulated evidence.
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Male 2,419
@MacGuffin, I agree with you in so far that yess the irag war was illegal, "justified" by sugestions of WMD`s and the argument of democrazy which they didn`t care about the 20/30 years before they entered, hell there is enough to sugest (to some) that Sadam was put in place and kept in place becuase it did serve the needs of a certian country. i also think the bush administration violated human rights, disregarded Un resolutions, that innocent civilians suffered when they shouldn`t have. i can see your point and i accept that.
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Male 3,310
I don`t understand? This "homeowner" signed up for a job that wouldn`t be able to pay the mortgage they agreed to?
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Male 32
@piperfawn. youre right, we should have never gone to war with iraq because of false promises. we should have gone to war with him because of his attempted genocide. hmmm still a war
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Male 5,141
is yes
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Male 5,141
turdburglar not all are criminals or have commited crimes but what you think of the soldiers that have directly see the situation and the crimes committed by others soldiers and didn`t have denounced the facts? Aren`t they also guilty? ( I really think that all knew what really happened there)
I may be wrong but seem also that lot of prisoners in your country have joined the army with the promise to be clear of their sentences?
I`m from Italy and as you can see my english suck a lot cause i`m a self learner. My country joined the Iraq war with few mens in 2003 till 2006. This created a large debate in our public opinion. If you ask my personal opinion was an error and also if our soldiers weren`t supoposed to partecipate directly in to the fights but they where deployed just to create some military logistic base in the middle of nowhere i think that was an error for my country to partecipate in that illegal war. You ask me if also soldiers of my country are guilty? My opinion
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Male 4,891
@piperfawn - I thought I rembered from a post a ways back you saying you where british, but I`m gussing I am wrong about that. As for troops being responsible for their own actions, I agree with that, if they are rapeing, murdering, etc...but the blanket statement was made that ALL troops that where sent to Iraq, where automaticly war criminals/murderers. That is what I was disagree with. I have never entertained the idea of joining the military, so it would be easy for me to agree with you. But so many joined before 9/11 and Iraq, with the promise of 4 years in, then they could be done and have college paid and much more. But their commits where extended by the govt and sent over seas. I just find it dumb to just say that all service men are war criminal/murderers.
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Male 1,252
Reanimate Andrew Jackson! Tell the (3rd?) national to go drat themselves!
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Male 5,141
Me and MacGuffin prefere to make love (togheter) not war. :-P
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Male 9
freedom isnt free cowboy
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Male 5,141
And Cajun247 Lybia in not in the middle east. America if you want to spread war all over the world at least study a bit of geography pls.
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Female 2,602
[quote]...and yet we`re bound for yet another ill-advised, poorly justified, elective, and expensive war in the Middle East. Obama`s action in Libya was illegal, Bush`s wars were only unjustified.[/quote]

As pf said, the intervention/war/killings in Libya weren`t illegal, they were sanctioned under UN Resolutions 1970 & 1973.
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Male 5,141
Cajun247 not true. also if i don`t agree in any form of ,ilitary intervention in foreign country. The "war" in Libya was an intervention not a war and was an U.N resolution( the war in Iraq was an unilater decision taken against international and U.N will). Not a single damn soldier have entered the lybian territory, not a single foreign army have occupied the libyan territory.
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Male 10,855
...and yet we`re bound for yet another ill-advised, poorly justified, elective, and expensive war in the Middle East. Obama`s action in Libya was illegal, Bush`s wars were only unjustified.
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Male 5,141
turdburglar wich country?
And yes i totaly agree with MacGuffin receiving an order from a superior don`t give you any excuse to commit criminals acts. This was sentenced after the WW2 and is the most logical thing in the universe, everyone is responsible of their actions, we are not robots and we must face the consewquences of our actions. The fact that someone say that lot of americans soldiers are gone to war for financial problems is just a stupid excuse. You can solve your problem working as an honest civilian, no need to go around the world killing to solve your damn finacial situation, go to cultivate tomatoes, this would be a finest and more respectable way to realize your self. If a thief and murderer tell you he havew committed crimes to solve their financial problems you will be ready to excuse him?
For your info i`ve readed all discussion before to post my comments.
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Male 15,175
That`s right, your country expects you to die in a foreign sandbox without the benefit of beer nor bacon to ease your passing, yet won`t save you from the economy that they scuppered with their own largesse. Just be glad your parents have you for father`s day, and aren`t left cuddling a dusty folded flag. Don`t be dumb. Don`t sign up.
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Male 4,891
@macG - I do admire your honesty there. Still, commitments should be kept, and "I changed my mind" dosen`t cut it in the real world.
As for "Nobody joins up "for the benefits", unless they`re an idiot, because there aren`t any."...
That may be true over there, our govt. offers some pretty tempting bennies to join. College alone can be enuf for someone with no prospects, living in a poor family.
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Male 4,142
any one what to talk about the evil of Abraham Lincoln and his crimes against humanity?
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Male 4,142
@MeGrendel
you have made no ponits
you have contradicted yourself.
all you have is you silly faith
and petty jabs
looks like i win this argument and you now bore me. so later

>>What gives you the right to continue to exist?

like i have said the ability to kill. duh
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Male 523
@MacGuffin
"I`m not proud of it, but that`s at least the honest truth. Nobody joins up "for the benefits", unless they`re an idiot, because there aren`t any. The money`s crap, and your career is likely to end whilst you`re still young but too old to start a new career, during one of the many funding cuts, leaving you out of a job and with no marketable skills. That`s why so many ex-service personnel end up on the streets or in prison. "

Maybe in your country. I know plenty of people that have gone through college and gotten good jobs because of military benefits.
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Male 10,855
[quote] Because I don`t want to die or get shot[/quote]

Then you`re no better than the terrorist.
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Male 523
@piperfawn
Our current president isn`t much better homeboy, he has continued all of Bush`s evils.
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Male 4,891
@piperfawn - If you are gonna comment on what he said, maybe you should read the whole conversation, and not just take a bit out of context. Start at the part with macguffin saying that ALL troops are "war criminals"...then read from there. And also...if you are gonna show those pics, remember that your country was supplying troops too.
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Female 2,602
1) I was young and stupid, and didn`t fully appreciate all of the implications of my decision at the time.

2) It seemed exciting.

3) As an admittedly very poor third, it seemed like an honourable profession.


I`m not proud of it, but that`s at least the honest truth. Nobody joins up "for the benefits", unless they`re an idiot, because there aren`t any. The money`s crap, and your career is likely to end whilst you`re still young but too old to start a new career, during one of the many funding cuts, leaving you out of a job and with no marketable skills. That`s why so many ex-service personnel end up on the streets or in prison.
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Female 2,602
[quote]I believe that it is a pretty dam dirty thing to join the service for the bennies, then bail on your commitments, squad mates, and country the second poo hits the fan. I don`t care what happened to Ben Griffin. I understand that he wouldn`t want to go because he didn`t believe in the war, but he had no right to bail. Both you and him should be ashamed of yourself. If you join for the bennifits, you should also have to honor the commitment, even if you disagree.[/quote]

As I said, don`t expect me to have an opinion on your beliefs. For the record, though, I didn`t join up "for the bennifits" (or even the benefits). I joined up because:

...
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Female 2,602
And that`s before we even get to the many incidents involving `contractors` such as Blackwater. Interesting to note that the Geneva Conventions you mentioned earlier also doesn`t afford those `uninformed` contractors any recognition or protection under international the laws of conflict. Yet they still got away with murder. Literally. Over and over again.
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Female 2,602
[quote] @MacGuffin - All this rape, torture, imprisonment and murder you speak of were the actions of a few here and there who did so illegally, you`re right about that. What you`re doing though is trying to lump everyone into that category which is absurd. The way you tell it makes it look like every US Marine, soldier & sailor was running around Iraq with d*cks out killing and raping everything with a hole and a heartbeat.[/quote]

The `only a few bad apples` defence doesn`t cut it, wd. The civilian casualties of the US purges in Falluja alone make what`s going on in Syria today look like minor incidents by comparison. The abuses in Abu Ghraib were widespread, and sanctioned at a high level. And there were so many photographs of rape and killing in US custody that Obama had to go back on his word to publish them, because revealing the extent of the atrocities committed by many in the US military would "risk American lives".

...
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Male 523
@piperfawn
Our current president isn`t much better homeboy, he has continued all of Bush`s evils.
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Male 50
@piperfawn

Killing some one with a sniper rifle is worse than killing some one by hiding behind a family.

If I were a soldier, the sad truth is that I would gun down everything in front of me if a terrorist held a woman and said to drop my gun.

Why?

Very simple answer, really? Because I don`t want to die or get shot
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Male 5,141
an error occurred.
He can`t cause on march this year he have been sentenced as...


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Female 9
So by his reckoning he should get a bail out for his services to the people of his country.
So firefighters should get one also then - they put their lives on the line to save their countrymen.
What about policemen? Doctors? Nurses? They all put themselves out for their country and all put themselves in danger from time to time.
No, we all chose our career paths, we all got paid for our services. If you bail out some for their services to their country where exactly do you draw the line.
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Male 5,141
whodat6484 "What I saw in Afghanistan was a bunch of f*cking cowards (Taliban) who hide behind women & children"
And i see coward americans troops who hide behind drones and kill whit "intelligent"???? missiles people that have nothing to do with politics business.
"Iraqis were gassed, kidnapped, tortured and killed by other Iraqis." And suddenly all is changed ...cause they where gassed, kidnaped, tortured and killed by..amurikans.

Saddam was a really bad person for sure but please stop playng the part of the angels, history have allready written the real sentence. Was an illegal invasion an illegal war perpetrated with lies all done for the godamn money interests and a massive slaughter of civilians and innocent people. Ask Bush to take an airplain and come to Europe. He can`t cause on march this year he have been sentenced as...

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Male 1,243
Why should `people like them` be treated any differently? He made the choice to join the forces and I presume like everyone else got a salary. Nobody should loose their home, but a sense of entitlement like this is quite sickening.
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Male 140
corporate cannonfodder believes he/she actually fought for freedom... a clear case of nieveity in the extreme!
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Male 4,891
@macguffin - Yes, I am entitled to believe what ever I wan`t. And I believe that it is a pretty dam dirty thing to join the service for the bennies, then bail on your commitments, squad mates, and country the second poo hits the fan. I don`t care what happened to Ben Griffin. I understand that he wouldn`t want to go because he didn`t believe in the war, but he had no right to bail. Both you and him should be ashamed of yourself. If you join for the bennifits, you should also have to honor the commitment, even if you disagree.
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Male 3,908
@MacGuffin - All this rape, torture, imprisonment and murder you speak of were the actions of a few here and there who did so illegally, you`re right about that. What you`re doing though is trying to lump everyone into that category which is absurd. The way you tell it makes it look like every US Marine, soldier & sailor was running around Iraq with d*cks out killing and raping everything with a hole and a heartbeat.
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Female 2,602
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Female 2,602
[quote]I find it hard to believe that you would refuse to go if ordered. You would abandon your squad mates, and the job you swore to do when you signed up? If that is the case, why did you join in the first place. Once you are in, you can`t just change your mind. The punishment for that is pretty severe. You would be a trator to your mates and country.[/quote]


It`s a free forum, and you`re entitled to believe anything you like in it. Just don`t expect me to necessarily have an opinion on it. And as for severe punishment for refusing to participate, read the link on Ben Griffin that I provided earlier. You`ll see that, rather than being reprimanded, he was given an honourable discharge and a glowing recommendation by his commanding officers for refusing to participate. It gives me hope that true bravery isn`t dead, at several levels of the UK military. It`s a shame that more weren`t brave enough to follow his, and his commanding officer`s, fine examples.
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Female 2,602
>>>Was not illegal. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. What did I tell you about your willfull ignorance?<<<


As I said, if you can ever think of anything other than mere sarcasm to back up your beliefs, I`ll be happy to debate with you. Until then, you`re not worth my time. I`ll just leave it to Nick Clegg, Deputy Prime Minister of the UK, to give you an independent opinion on whether it was an illegal war or not.
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Male 4,891
@macguffin...Also, I find it hard to believe that you would refuse to go if ordered. You would abandon your squad mates, and the job you swore to do when you signed up? If that is the case, why did you join in the first place. Once you are in, you can`t just change your mind. The punishment for that is pretty severe. You would be a trator to your mates and country.
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Male 8,415
dm2754-""my point is declarations of war have no meanings at all"

That is asanine. That`s like saying `speed limits have no meaning at all` or `the word `is` has no meaning at all`.

dm2754-"Osmas is just a good/meaningless as GW`s"

Incorrect. The Declarations by the US Congress have behind them the rule of law and our founding documents.

dm2754-"what do you think give any country the RIGHT to be a country and make any laws?"

What gives you the right to continue to exist?

MacGuffin-"I wouldn`t have gone to Iraq to fight in an illegal war."

Was not illegal. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. What did I tell you about your willfull ignorance?
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Female 2,602
[quote]@macguffin - It just does not make sence to blame the troops for the failures of the leaders. The armed forces prey on the poor, by offering huge incentives for joining. For many, it may be the only way to get a college ed., to have a decent carrer, or just get out of the bad area they may have been born into. I don`t think they join cause they want to be shipped over seas, possibly die, then return to be called criminal by people like you.[/quote]

Sorry, that doesn`t cut it. "I was only obeying orders" hasn`t worked as an excuse since Nuremberg, and of all the other excuses for engaging in war crimes I`ve encountered, I think citing personal financial gain has to be one of the most piss poor ones I`ve heard. It`s like a murderer saying that they only killed for the money rather than out of personal malice - it doesn`t make their crime any better, and in many ways makes it worse.
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Female 2,602
[quote]That`s no Kool-Aid, it`s taken from the Geneva Convention.[/quote]

You mean Conventions - there are four of them. And it`s the interpretation of those conventions that I`m talking about, not the abstract wording. A main premise of the conventions concerns protecting civilians, but that didn`t stop US troops from arbitrarily imprisoning, raping, torturing and killing many civilians during their time in Iraq, whilst engaged in an illegal war.
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Male 4,891
@macguffin - It just does not make sence to blame the troops for the failures of the leaders. The armed forces prey on the poor, by offering huge incentives for joining. For many, it may be the only way to get a college ed., to have a decent carrer, or just get out of the bad area they may have been born into. I don`t think they join cause they want to be shipped over seas, possibly die, then return to be called criminal by people like you.
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Male 523
Hey markust, as much as I like to call you a self-righteous non-nice individual. I just want you to know that when compared to MacGuffin, you are as humble as Sonia from Crime and Punishment.
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Female 2,602
[quote]@macguffin - ">Do you call your service men war criminals too?<

Yes I do. And I`m a former squaddie myself. They`re slightly less culpable than the US troops"
Just what makes your troops less culpable than the US troops?[/quote]

Perhaps if you hadn`t selectively snipped my post you wouldn`t need to ask, because I explained exactly why I consider US troops in my full post that you edited:

"Yes I do. And I`m a former squaddie myself. They`re slightly less culpable than the US troops, who seemed to get caught raping schoolgirls and torturing old men to death in custody every five minutes during the occupation, but British troops still nonetheless partook in an illegal war, and that therefore makes them war criminals too."

And in answer to your question, no, I wouldn`t have gone to Iraq to fight in an illegal war. And I was lucky enough to be a squaddie during the 90`s, when I wasn`t faced with the prospect.
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Male 3,908
That`s no Kool-Aid, it`s taken from the Geneva Convention.
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Male 4,891
@macguffin - ">Do you call your service men war criminals too?<

Yes I do. And I`m a former squaddie myself. They`re slightly less culpable than the US troops"
Just what makes your troops less culpable than the US troops? Also...If you are a former squaddie, aren`t you a "war criminal" too. Or is it ok because you may not have went to Iraq? If you where ordered to go, you rilly believe that you wouldn`t have? Blanket statements like "all soldiers are war criminals" are kinda stupid. (Unless it`s funny...i.e. dumb blond jokes, etc.)
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Female 2,602
>>>They`re always "innocent villages" after they`re shot.
Before that they`re shooting at the troops.
But it`s a much better news story and plays better on Al Jazeera with the "innocent spin". And you can always find some widow to cry for the camera.<<<


Oh really? How about these Iraqi citizens and these US personnel? Sorry it`s not Al Jazeera reporting it so that you can wallow in denial, but the New York Times.
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Male 523
@markust
"I think there should be a draft for anyone who talks like this."

If there were a like button I would click it for this.
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Male 4,142
@MeGrendel
youre almost there. my point is declarations of war have no meanings at all. it just a pece of paper. Osmas is just a good/meaningless as GW`s

so, then what do you think give any country the RIGHT to be a country and make any laws?
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Male 3,908
@MeGrendel - Glad you brought that up because I`ve tried explaining to people why, technically, all these rules of war they like to bring up don`t apply if you`re fighting an insurgency where there is no clearly identifiable uniformed service.

It only applies if they are "commanded by a person who is responsible for his subordinates, have a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance, carry arms openly, and conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war."

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Female 2,602
[quote]all these rules of war they like to bring up don`t apply if you`re fighting an insurgency where there is no clearly identifiable uniformed service.

It only applies if they are "commanded by a person who is responsible for his subordinates, have a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance, carry arms openly, and conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war." [/quote]

Yeah, don`t drink the Kool Aid that draft-dodging practised liars like Bush and Cheney sold the US military to make you feel better about killing women and children. Those same people also had the gall to try and convince the US public that torture was legal, remember.

If there were a competent international authority to prosecute them, those who fed you the nonsense above and sent you off into cities like Fallujah in Iraq to cause chaos amongst the civilian population, would be on trial under international law for clear war crimes.
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Male 39,531

They`re always "innocent villages" after they`re shot.
Before that they`re shooting at the troops.
But it`s a much better news story and plays better on Al Jazeera with the "innocent spin". And you can always find some widow to cry for the camera.
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Male 3,908
If an "innocent Iraqi civilian" picks up a weapon and shoots at you they`re no longer a "civilian" they`re an "enemy combatant" so that argument of yours is straight up bullsh*t. Like I said, you didn`t actually see what goes on so you have no room to talk. The ROE while I was there was pretty strict for the most part. You don`t shoot until someone shoots at you first, there were plenty of times where we came across armed, military aged adults and would call it in. 99% of the time we`d get a response saying "Keep an eye o them, you`re only cleared to engage if they shoot first."
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Male 3,908
@MeGrendel - Glad you brought that up because I`ve tried explaining to people why, technically, all these rules of war they like to bring up don`t apply if you`re fighting an insurgency where there is no clearly identifiable uniformed service.

It only applies if they are "commanded by a person who is responsible for his subordinates, have a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance, carry arms openly, and conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war."

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Female 2,602
[quote]I guess you think it`s ok that he would kidnap & kill any Iraqi citizen & his family for saying something bad about him. Iraqis were gassed, kidnapped, tortured and killed by other Iraqis.[/quote]

What, you mean as opposed to the kidnapping of European citizens and others that the US engaged in, in Iraq as well as elsewhere? You mean as opposed to the illegal killings of Iraqi civilians that the US military carried out? You mean as opposed to the torture that Iraqi civilians were subject to by cowards wearing the exact same uniform as you?

Don`t make me laugh. Saddam Hussein wasn`t a saint by any means, but none of his actions justify or excuse the US`s equally-evil acts against the Iraqi population.
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Male 8,415
MacGuffin-"Because it would contain more substance than mere sarcasm."

If you`d like to receive more substance than mere sarcasm, then I suggest your comments should contain more reason than mere ignorance can entertain.
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Male 3,908
@MacGuffin - and I guess you missed the other part of my original comment where I said about Iraq & Saddam:

"I guess you think it`s ok that he would kidnap & kill any Iraqi citizen & his family for saying something bad about him. Iraqis were gassed, kidnapped, tortured and killed by other Iraqis."

WMD`s or not, what was going on there with Saddam was just as bad as what the Taliban were doing in Afghanistan.
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Female 1,478
Nice! And if they took the paint off, I`d keep putting it up until the house sold.
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Female 2,602
[quote]If someone said anything intelligent to you, how could you tell?[/quote]

Because it would contain more substance than mere sarcasm.
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Male 1,008
"That`s more like it, yusuk. We really aren`t meant to be on the same side, ideologically-speaking. Let`s agree to temporary truces during Ireland games only. "

Agreed and Agreed
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Male 8,415
dm2754-"so you`re saying...

That you have a reading comprehension problem.

I`ll make it simple for you.

UN Sanctioning is not required to declare a state of war.
Most countries have ESTABLISHED rules and precedent about declaring war.
Osama Bin Ladin had no standing with any country with warrented him having the ablity to declare war, so his `declaration of war` had no more meaning than your declaration of war on Dunkin Donuts.

MacGuffin-"I`ve said all I had to say to you,"

Surrender noted.

MacGuffin-"and I noticed you had nothing intelligent to say in response."

If someone said anything intelligent to you, how could you tell?
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Female 2,602
[quote]@MacGuffin - Yeah, I guess explaining that innocent villagers were being forced by members of the Taliban to help them or they would be killed isn`t an intelligent response[/quote]

Hey, weren`t the Taliban in Afghanistan, genius? And haven`t I exclusively been talking about the illegality of the Iraq war? And isn`t this thread *about* the Iraq war?
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Male 3,908
@MacGuffin - Yeah, I guess explaining that innocent villagers were being forced by members of the Taliban to help them or they would be killed isn`t an intelligent response.

You come off as the "crazy cat lady" type to me so there`s really no point in arguing with you anyway. It`s obvious you enjoy being such a miserable person.
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Female 2,602
[quote]MacGuffin, you should never drink alone, it makes you nasty![/quote]

That`s more like it, yusuk. We really aren`t meant to be on the same side, ideologically-speaking. Let`s agree to temporary truces during Ireland games only. ;-)
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Female 2,602
[quote]@MacGuffin - Hahaha, wow, you`re hilarious. Keep it coming, this is getting pretty entertaining![/quote]

No thanks. I`ve said all I had to say to you, and I noticed you had nothing intelligent to say in response. If anyone else feels compelled to try and argue that the war in Iraq wasn`t illegal, or that you and others weren`t cowardly war criminals for partaking in it, I`ll be happy to argue otherwise. Other than that, your pathetic response above doesn`t warrant further comment.
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Male 1,008
MacGuffin, you should never drink alone, it makes you nasty!

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Male 3,908
@MacGuffin - Hahaha, wow, you`re hilarious. Keep it coming, this is getting pretty entertaining!
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Female 2,602
[quote]@MacGuffin - So I`m a war criminal[/quote]

If you were there, then yes, you are.
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Male 4,142
@eGrendel
>>Hate to break it to you, but UN Sanction is not required.


so you`re saying that Osama bin Laden was with in his legal rights to start a war with the USA.
if he was still alive Osama would thank you for your support
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Male 3,908
@MacGuffin - So I`m a war criminal, huh? You have no room to comment on something you haven`t witnessed with your own eyes. What I saw in Afghanistan was a bunch of f*cking cowards (Taliban) who hide behind women & children (usually their own wives & children) and dare you to go after them so if an innocent person is accidentally killed it makes you look bad in the news. Have you ever gone into a village full of poor & starving families who tell you they`re being forced by the Taliban to store weapons and turn over what little crops they are growing to them or they`ll come through and wipe out your entire village? Probably not, huh?

Iraq, yeah I was there too, and the world is a better place without Saddam. I guess you think it`s ok that he would kidnap & kill any Iraqi citizen & his family for saying something bad about him. Iraqis were gassed, kidnapped, tortured and killed by other Iraqis.
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Female 2,602
[quote]I`ll agree the leaders of both our nations lied to us, but also to the troops they sent their. But you cannot pass the blame on to soldiers who literally have no say in where they go. You as a voter have more say so. Does that make you a War Criminal?[/quote]

Most people who voted for Bliar (no spelling error), disagreed with the Iraq War. A million of them marched against it. They are not culpable, no.

In answer to your other point ("soldiers who literally have no say in where they go"), I`ll ask you a question in return. Do you think those soldiers that gassed Jews were personally culpable? Or is the argument that they were only obeying orders just a ridiculous fallacy in their case alone?

Some service people did refuse to fight in the illegal war in Iraq: they are the real heroes to me. The other criminals that did choose to obey illegal orders will probably never be brought to justice, but that doesn`t make them any less culpable.
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Female 2,602
All these j3rks coming back with a sense of entitlement like the douche in the OP of this thread, I`ve no time for them whatsoever.
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Female 2,602
>Do you call your service men war criminals too?<


Yes I do. And I`m a former squaddie myself. They`re slightly less culpable than the US troops, who seemed to get caught raping schoolgirls and torturing old men to death in custody every five minutes during the occupation, but British troops still nonetheless partook in an illegal war, and that therefore makes them war criminals too. Make no mistake about it, if the coalition had lost, and there had been a reckoning the likes of which were seen at Nuremberg, then several people now wearing military uniforms would be serving life sentences or dangling at the end of a rope for their actions in Iraq. The real heroes are those few brave service people who refused to fight in such an obviously-illegal war, such as
Ben Griffin. That takes real courage.

...
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Male 39,531

MacGuffin [quote]"Partaking in an illegal war based on falsehoods about WMDs," [/quote]
I`ll agree the leaders of both our nations lied to us, but also to the troops they sent their. But you cannot pass the blame on to soldiers who literally have no say in where they go. You as a voter have more say so. Does that make you a War Criminal?
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Male 95
MacGuffin, please don`t forget all of us tax paying Americans who helped fund the murder of civilians, and torture of detainers. I wish I was being sarcastic...

Furthermore, regardless of whether a war is legal or illegal, a house payment is a house payment. Just because you were over seas putting panties on prisoner heads and taking pictures of it doesn`t mean you get a free pass on a house.
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Male 8,415
MacGuffin-"It was an illegal war, entered into without UN sanction."

Hate to break it to you, but UN Sanction is not required. The US is not subserviant to the UN.

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Male 4,142
funny
if you leve the O out of country IMB changes it to mean personry
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Male 4,142
yes, i know about "AUTHORIZED PARTY" BS. and that way his Declaration of war was turned down by the UN
but you still don`t get. i don`t know what to tell you. let me bottom line it for is the simplest way i can.
government are put into power because they killed people to be in power. because the have the power to kill anyone they want thanks to armies. they get to decide what is legal and what is Criminal.
like your mean personry. they where not elected. they strated be killing the poeple and taking thier land then out the "old king" and killed any one that disageered with their Manifest Destiny
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Male 83
Assistance to veterans with or without VA guaranteed home loans 1-877-827-3702
National Call Center for Homeless veterans - 1-877-424-3838 - veterans that may be facing homelessness as a result of losing their home.
Other assistance for delinquent veteran borrowers - 1-888-995-4673 and If VA is not able to help, the HOPE NOW Alliance may be of assistance
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Male 83
Banks - Too big to fail

Middle Class - Even bigger.... but, hey, y`know... personal responsibility, you took the risks, economic crisis, blah blah blah.
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Male 4,891
@macguffin - I could not disagree with you more. I didn`t agree with the invasion of Iraq either, but I draw a seperation between the troops and the greedy politicians who sent them over there. Your country had troops there too, though not nearly as many. Do you call your service men war criminals too? Or just American troops?
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Female 2,602
[quote]@macguffin...That`s a bit much don`t ya think. Every vet is a war criminal? Hardly think that is fair.[/quote]

Everyone that partook in the Iraq war is a war criminal. It was an illegal war, entered into without UN sanction. I make no apology for calling them what they are.
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Male 8,415
Yes, of course, let`s look at some of these amazing athletes.

dm2754-"all i can tell you is to read more "

I`d suggest the same to you. Start under the legal implications header.

Then refer to your article concerning AUTHORIZED PARTY (which Ladin was not).
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Female 2,602
[quote]@ MacGuffin - thank you. Idiotic coments like calling servicemen "war criminals" always makes the rest of us look smart by comparison. I do so hope you enjoy your security, freedom and liberties that were purchased for you by the sacrifices of past War Criminals. Have a nice day.[/quote]

Dream on. Partaking in an illegal war based on falsehoods about WMDs, and in which members of the civil population of Iraq were literally tortured to death by your "servicemen" under the orders of your war criminal politicians did nothing for my freedom or my security. Quite the reverse, in fact. I can`t go on a plane without a virtual strip search these days, and there`s more chance of a terrorist atrocity on my streets than ever owing to the hatred your cowardly soldiers and politicians have dredged up. I hope that all the `heroes` that willingly partook in that illegal war end up homeless and destitute: it`s no better than they deserve.
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Male 4,891
@dm2754 - You have some issues to work out man. Go work them out some where else. You made your point in the first comment. There is no need to fill up comments section with your ignorance.
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Male 505
[quote]authorized party of a national government[/quote]

Did Bin Laden fall into this category?
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Male 2,419
@dm2754
I understand your argument: if there were no soldiers there would be no war. and i`d get on my knees and bow down to any god if s/he/it could make that happen. But the reality is that humans do nasty things to each other. that`s why we need laws and cops (unfortunatly) and sometimes bigger groups of humans do bad things to other humans, then you need more cops or an army. if you look at our history, then you will encounter times when the need for soldiers was justified to protect: life, freedom, property etc etc.
let me put it this way. if i killed a man for his money, i would be a murderer, if i killed a man becuase he was trying to rape a little girl... what would i be then? Again, i hate violence, but we live in a sick sad world, that sometimes forces us to do sick sad things.
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Male 3,908
Believe it or not there actually are clauses in things such as mortgages, leases, cell phone contracts, etc, that are there specifically for those in the military if they are deployed with short notice and have no time to tie up loose ends before leaving. I know this for a fact because right after 9/11 we had our sh*t picked and were on standby to leave, we got word where we were going less than 72 hrs before getting on the plane. Upon returning from our first deployment the majority of us had to deal with penalties and late-fees that had piled up on things like cell phone bills, car payments, etc, but after filing some paperwork and making phone calls all of those problems were fixed.

@irunfast86 - You`re absolutely right! All that combat pay & tax free $$ adds up quick, especially if you have nowhere to spend it so we all came back with big-a$$ bank accounts. I saw guys blow through $20-$30,000 like it was nothing.
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Male 4,142
@MeGrendel
dam you just don`t get do you. must be the rossy glass you wear.
all i can tell you is to read more
start here
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Male 4,142
@MrOrange
Wow you make some good points. I too am a pacifist but I have always thought highly of the polish in WWII for what they did and how they died.
With my people be on the receiving end of the worst genocide in the history of mankind. I often think but the "choice" of going to war. But I see it as this: if there where no soldiers would there have been genocide in the first place? I don’t care what Politician gave the order it was soldiers who did the work.
So the question are all soldiers evil? That depends on how you define "soldier".
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Male 8,415
dm2754-"who makes the Law?"

In this coiuntry, legally elected representatives. ie: Politicians. (Of course, I wouldn`t say I`m exactly happy with the crap their passing at the moment.)

dm2754-"Osama bin Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden was a soldier and he filled out the proper paperwork to start a war."

Yes, his fatwa was legally binding..only on its author. (That is the legal precedent. Fatwas are not legally binding to anyone.)

I could just as easily say `I declare war on the planet Rayon` and it would have just as much legality as Ladin`s `"Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places`.
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Male 4,142
@jamie76
I think "faaaaq" would appreciate you not peeing on him. I’m sure he would rather "Stop, Drop, and Roll"
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Male 4,142
@MeGrendel
who makes the Law?
the poeple that killed a can kill the most.
Osama bin Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden was a soldier and he filled out the proper paperwork to start a war I.E. A declaration of war so everything he did would nice and legal.
look it in the 911 report
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Male 2,841
So I guess military service entitles people to a free ride nowadays.
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Male 4,142
This man started an legal war. He used terrorist tactics to over throw the government. It is unknown how many people he killed. He believed it was okay to keep sub-humans as slaves. He committed genocide. Who was he?

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Male 2,345
faaaaq

you are an idiot of the highest order and i know for a fact that you do not known anyone that served in iraq.

you have no idea what issues those people and their families face and how they lose so much and YES they are forced.

the joined voluntarily but that does not mean they can refuse to go to war.

also many of them joined because there are no jobs anywhere else.

based on what you posted here, I would not piss on your chest to put you on if you caught on fire.
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Male 8,415
dm2754-"macguffin is right if you look at it this way."

Only if `this way` is with your head up your posterior.

dm2754-"soldiers make war."

Soldiers fight war. Politicians MAKE war.

dm2754-"war is murder."

That is not an equivalency.

dm2754-"murder is criminal."

Only when defined as murder in a court of law.

Let me guess: Logic is not one of your strongpoints. Every step of your `logic` failed.
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Male 2,419
I don`t mind the question: "how much one gets paid to kill another human bieng" becuase that *is* the job you singed up for, therefore it is a legitimate question. But calling every vet a war criminal? sorry Macguffin, i`m a pacifist myself. but what about counterterrorism? what about the polish soldiers who rode on horse with sword against german tanks in WWII? infact how about any vet that served in WWII? and yeah i include german soldiers in that as wel as desertion or refusal ment a bullet. how about conscripted soldiers? I seriously dislike war. but imho you can`t condem everyone who fought in one.
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Male 4,142
>> freedom and liberties that were purchased for >>you by the sacrifices of past War Criminals

ha ha ha that is so funny
its so cute that you still think that.
have you writen you litter to santa claus yet?
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Male 658
I appreciate your service, but it does not entitle you to a free ride.
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Male 8,415
tedgp-"a single person who was forced to go to war 3 times under penalty of imprisonment"

You DO realize that the US Military is an entirely volunteer force, right?

MacGuffin-"war criminal."

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Male 4,142
@turdburglar
macguffin is right if you look at it this way.
soldiers make war.
war is murder.
murder is criminal.
killing people for money is a bad thing
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Male 39,531

@ MacGuffin - thank you. Idiotic coments like calling servicemen "war criminals" always makes the rest of us look smart by comparison. I do so hope you enjoy your security, freedom and liberties that were purchased for you by the sacrifices of past War Criminals. Have a nice day.
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Male 4,142
@markust123
being a Soldier is just being a fry cook it a drating job. A soldier`s job it to kill. sure they don`t get paid by the kill witch is becuse some never get the chance to kill some one that they nevery mert or that has wornged them in any way.
every war is only about one thing, that is rich men paying poor men to kill for them so they can get richer.
you`re over 40 grow up and see things the way they really are
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Male 1,821
Certain people posting on this may want to consider suicide.


(hint: Calling our soldiers war criminals is an indication that you may need to consider it. I`m not sayin, I`m jus sayin)
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Male 4,891
@macguffin...That`s a bit much don`t ya think. Every vet is a war criminal? Hardly think that is fair.
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Male 4,844
"How much do you get paid for killing you fallow man thses days any way?"

I think there should be a draft for anyone who talks like this.
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Male 694
he was not FORCED to go to war 3 times... also, lostinkorea and irunfast86 are both correct. this dumbdrat doesn get any sympathy no does he deserve any from me. he drated up, he should have planned better. there is no "oh, youre a soldier? here, lets let you scoot by all the laws and poo that the lesser peons of america have to follow"
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Female 5
Big Opportunity for every one U can make money form Google JUST VISIT HERE
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Male 4,844
Instead of foreclosure why the hell don`t the banks refinance the mortgages with a lower fixed percentage? For the most part it is the adjustable rates that screw people. Well to be fair it was the idiots who signed up for adjustable rates that screwed themselves.
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Female 3,726
And all the tax free money that I earned from combat pay has gone into a savings account and is untouched. If your house in is foreclosure, ask yourself why? I understand life happens but don`t blame other people.
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Male 4,142
well you should have got a real job.
how much do you get paid for killing you fallow man thses days any way?
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Female 2,602
My heart bleeds, war criminal.
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Female 3,726
That`s why you don`t get out, without a plan.

Budget, plan, budget, plan, make smart decisions! Any questions?
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Male 403
My brother and sister-in-law both did three tours each and they struggle with money. It`s because they spend it like water. They do a tour, act like they won the lottery for a couple months, then are broke again. Cry me a river.
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Male 3,285
Comparing a single person who was forced to go to war 3 times under penalty of imprisonment, to a major conglomerate that holds the wealth of millions of people doesnt work.

Good try though modbot.
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Female 256
Link: No Breaks For Vets In The Iraq War [Pic] [Rate Link] - If an Iraqi War vet can`t get a chance, what are the odds for a slob like myself?
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