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Date: 05/31/12 04:19 PM

129 Responses to Is It Murder? [Pic+]

  1. Profile photo of kitteh9lives
    kitteh9lives Female 70 & Over
    8033 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 4:12 pm
    Link: Is It Murder? - A pregnant woman attempted suicide. She survived the attempt but the baby died, is it murder?
  2. Profile photo of bloomi
    bloomi Male 18-29
    148 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 4:26 pm
    In my opinion the baby is not `alive` until it has been born. As such it is not murder if a pregnant woman commits suicide.
  3. Profile photo of CRA-Z_HEART
    CRA-Z_HEART Male 18-29
    138 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 4:34 pm
    Well it should only matter if they actually survive the suicide.
    If they both die, why waste the time deciding if shes guilty of murdering her unborn child? You can`t punish someone who`s already dead.
  4. Profile photo of icklevamp
    icklevamp Female 18-29
    375 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 4:39 pm
    I`m anti abortion, but if you don`t class abortion as murder then how can you class this as it?
  5. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 4:41 pm
    Well it should only matter if they actually survive the suicide.
    If they both die, why waste the time deciding if shes guilty of murdering her unborn child? You can`t punish someone who`s already dead.

    As far as I know, even the US justice system has never tried to prosecute a corpse.
  6. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 4:42 pm
    totally made a dumb post: lets see if anyone caught it.
  7. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 4:43 pm
    totally made a dumb post: lets see if anyone caught it.

    You know what, since you realised it was dumb on your own, I`m going to let you off. ;)
  8. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 4:44 pm
    33 weeks pregnant? Isn`t that almost full term? So yeah, i would say that`s murder - how could you think otherwise?
  9. Profile photo of Xenophonix
    Xenophonix Female 18-29
    195 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 4:46 pm
    The problem with cases like these is the obvious confliction of two human`s rights. It`s a slippery slope calling it murder, at what point do you tie a woman up and force her to carry the baby to term and give birth? Just my opinion, but until the baby is born, I believe the women`s right to control over her own body always come before the baby.

    It`s a tragic case yes, but it seems cruel to charge her with murder after what she`s been through...
  10. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 4:50 pm
    "It`s a tragic case yes, but it seems cruel to charge her with murder after what she`s been through..."

    I`m sorry, what was the ordeal she has been through? Her boyfriend dumped her?
  11. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36208 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    Best quote in the whole article, "I know a lot of women who, but for the grace of God, could be in her position. Good women. Wonderful, talented, intelligent women. Great mothers."
    Great women don`t do this.
    Especially great `mothers` don`t.
  12. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 4:50 pm
    33 weeks pregnant? Isn`t that almost full term? So yeah, i would say that`s murder - how could you think otherwise?

    It still makes me uncomfortable as a legal premise. Where does it stop? There was a historical case I read about from the early nineties, where a late term pregnant woman in the US found out that she had cancer, and her oncologist advised her to start chemotherapy right away. Her obstetrician, on the other hand, got a court order preventing her from getting the treatment that may have saved her life. She died in the end, waiting for the treatment that could have saved her life. That, to me, is murder - of a fully grown woman by a medical professional, rather than of an unborn foetus by a mother.
  13. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 4:52 pm
    You`d probably follow the same guidelines for when you consider the murder of a pregnant woman double-homicide. It would have to be after a certain period of time.
  14. Profile photo of Xenophonix
    Xenophonix Female 18-29
    195 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 4:54 pm
    Blanktom - she tried to _kill_ herself! You don`t take rat poison and expect to live. No matter what has happened to you, you have to be in a dark place to try to kill yourself...
  15. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 4:57 pm
    @MacGuffin, I think that was an episode of House... j/k.

    But seriously, Slippery Slope is a fallacy for a reason. These are two different cases. If someone intentionally tries to kill themselves and their child and they survive and their child dies, that`s a pretty open and shut case. It doesn`t set a president for what you`re talking about.
  16. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 4:59 pm
    @Xenophonix just like someone who shoots up a school and then turns the gun on themselves. They should be absolved of all the murders too?
  17. Profile photo of swoop408
    swoop408 Male 18-29
    1754 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:00 pm
    Lol no its not murder. Stupid.
  18. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:01 pm
    and Hitler for that matter. Maybe he`s not such a bad guy after all - he was just in a dark place
  19. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:02 pm
    Godwin`s Law ftw
  20. Profile photo of swoop408
    swoop408 Male 18-29
    1754 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:03 pm
    Oh and with no surprise the right wing "Christians" are the most unforgiving and want this woman`s head. Way to follow Jesus, folks. Hahaha!
  21. Profile photo of swoop408
    swoop408 Male 18-29
    1754 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:04 pm
    Comparing a pregnant woman with obvious psychological problems that tried up commit suicide to Hitler -- seems legit.
  22. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:06 pm
    lol, gerry... it angers me how liberal and one sided that article was. This is not an abortion case. I don`t know any legitimate Pro-Choice movement that advocates abortion during the second half of the third trimester.
  23. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:08 pm
    Slippery Slope is a fallacy for a reason. These are two different cases.

    You`ve got a fair point. If this were a woman driving a car with a six-month old baby in it, and she deliberately tried to commit suicide by driving the car into a tree, and she failed to kill herself but succeeded in killing the child, I doubt many people would have any problem with putting her on trial for culpable homicide (in the UK) or 2nd degree murder (in the US) at least. It complicates matters a bit, though, when you`re talking about a foetus. If you want to say that it`s murder because the child couldn`t be legally aborted, that`s one thing; but then is it less of a culpable act if the unborn foetus *is* at a stage where it could be aborted? Does that mean murderers that attempt to kill pregnant women with foetuses below the abortion threshold can`t be tried with murder? It`s definitely not a simple cut-and-dried issue.
  24. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:18 pm
    @MacGuffin It`s not just because the baby was at a stage where it couldn`t legally be aborted. It has to do with *why* the baby couldn`t legally be aborted. I don`t really know the statistics, but I know for sure that if a baby is born at 33 weeks it has a very good chance of surviving (at least in the US and most developed countries). I wouldn`t be surprised if it`s a fairly high percentage. So what`s the difference between the life of a premature baby born at 33 weeks and a fetus still in the womb at 33 weeks?
  25. Profile photo of DuckBoy87
    DuckBoy87 Male 18-29
    3149 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:22 pm
    It`s a slippery slope to call it murder.

    That being said, I don`t approve of abortion as a way of contraception.
    I do approve of abortion if 1) the mother`s life is endangered by giving birth, 2) the child has a severe defect, including autism and down`s syndrome, or 3) the child is a rape baby.
  26. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:26 pm
    @MacGuffin It`s not just because the baby was at a stage where it couldn`t legally be aborted. It has to do with *why* the baby couldn`t legally be aborted. I don`t really know the statistics, but I know for sure that if a baby is born at 33 weeks it has a very good chance of surviving

    So would you feel differently about it if the foetus had been at 23 weeks and didn`t survive a mother`s suicide attempt?
  27. Profile photo of Xenophonix
    Xenophonix Female 18-29
    195 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:27 pm
    The difference is that the rights of the baby in the womb directly impact on the rights of the woman. You can`t give any treatment to an unborn baby without affecting the woman in some way. The choice is, do the rights of the unborn baby override the rights of the woman to have control of her own body? This includes whether she has the right to try to kill herself or not just because she happens to be pregnant.

    Either way, I suspect her prime motive was to kill herself and the child dying was a consequence, not that she was trying to kill the child directly. This makes the world of difference in a law court apparently.
  28. Profile photo of miasmaat
    miasmaat Female 18-29
    298 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:29 pm
    Here`s the rub though... Suicide is NEVER condoned by the people who would consider a group of cells a person from the first moment of division. These people tend to be religiously motivated (translate - stupid and irrational) and they generally don`t respect the notion of mental disorder either.
    If anyone gave a real crap about this woman, someone would have noticed her devolving mental state.
    I think it is about as rational to throw a suicidally depressed person in jail for being self absorbed as it is to throw a teenager in jail for use of a recreational drug.
    Why not just sentence them to death for homosexuality?! Its all on the same spectrum of religiously motivated societal controls.
    More to the point - what do you want to do? Strap every woman who wants an abortion to a bed for nine months until the baby can be forcibly taken from her? Make her into a mere extended fetal sac?! Them`s Nazi Ideas, folks!
  29. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:35 pm
    @MacGuffin Yes, i would feel differently.

    @Xenophonix Her intention was to kill *Both* herself and the child. It says so in the article. I do believe you give up the right to kill your children when you become pregnant. Do you think women have a right to smoke crack throughout their pregnancy?
  30. Profile photo of Baelzar
    Baelzar Male 40-49
    1399 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:35 pm
    If the gods wanted abortion to be illegal, they would have made us to lay eggs rather than incubating the fetus INSIDE the body for 9+ months.

    Sorry, religious folks. Serious design flaw. One of many.
  31. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:38 pm
    This includes whether she has the right to try to kill herself or not just because she happens to be pregnant.

    Just to be clear, in law, nobody has a "right to try and kill themselves". It used to be criminal offence to try and kill yourself in most states, and it`s now considered a common law offence (which can prevent your surviving spouse, for example, from claiming on a life insurance policy).

    I think you`re right about her level of culpability being lower if she didn`t intend to kill the child, and its death was simply an unavoidable consequence of her decision to kill herself. In her suicide note, though, she did allegedly state that she was "taking the baby with her", which suggests a greater degree of intent. So, we`re back to "does a foetus have the same rights as a person"? And if so, does it only have them because of its stage of development?
  32. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:44 pm
    @MacGuffin the child was doing no harm to the mother. It didn`t infringe on any of her right or health or anything. It was at a point in it`s development that it could have survived outside of the uterus. The mother`s intent was to kill herself *and* take the child with her.

    I really don`t see why this wouldn`t be tried as murder. Maybe she would be remanded to a psychiatric hospital or something depending on her condition
  33. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:50 pm
    @MacGuffin Yes, i would feel differently.

    I find it a tricky one to call, and I`m honestly not 100% sure how I feel about this issue.

    I`m pro-choice, so I`ve no qualms about a woman`s right to choose what happens within her own body, but I also agree with term limits on abortion for many of the same reasons you state (that foetuses are developed enough to survive outside the womb by 33 weeks). I think, considering the issue, it`d all need to come down to context and intent for me. If the suicidal person wasn`t of sound mind, that`d be one thing (for example, those common law statutes that prevent life insurance payouts in the case of suicide often will pay out if the suicidal person can be shown to not have been of sound mind when they committed the act). If they were of sound mind, and a foetus died as a result if their act, they`d need to be culpable. Just as a person that attacked a pregnant woman and killed her unborn child would be.
  34. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:50 pm
    if i were a defense lawyer on Law and Order, i would argue temporary insanity. Say that she was somehow driven to psychosis because of a hormone imbalance brought on by the pregnancy.

    No joke either. I would actually believe that.
  35. Profile photo of Xenophonix
    Xenophonix Female 18-29
    195 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:51 pm
    Apologies macguffin - I live in the uk, totally legal to try and kill yourself here :)
  36. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:53 pm
    @MacGuffin; I agree with making sure they were of sound mind and body. But you would have to hold the mother to the same standards you would a person going on a shooting spree or a mother her drowns her children.
  37. Profile photo of xiquiripat
    xiquiripat Male 18-29
    2423 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:54 pm
    Huh. Difficult to say. A lot of bioethics in a case like this. In the words of Oliver Wendel Holmes: "Hard cases make bad law". In this case the reverse is also true.
  38. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 5:59 pm
    A "baby" didn`t die. A fetus was aborted due to the attempt. Now, if we want to make that a crime, fine. But there was no "baby" in this situation.
  39. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:00 pm
    Apologies macguffin - I live in the uk, totally legal to try and kill yourself here :)

    So do I. And I used to work in the Police Service here. Whilst it`s not been a criminal offence to try and kill yourself since 1961 in England and Wales (and it never has been an offence to do so in Scotland), there are still civil laws covering it that cover issues like payouts in the case of life insurance policies. And you certainly don`t have a legal right to "try and kill yourself" here any more than in the US, as several people that have been actively prevented from travelling to the Dignitas assisted-suicide clinic in Switzerland will be able to tell you.
  40. Profile photo of unicornsss
    unicornsss Female 13-17
    8 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:03 pm
    Maybeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
  41. Profile photo of Xenophonix
    Xenophonix Female 18-29
    195 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:05 pm
    Yes macguffin, I`m not talking about assisted suicide, that is illegal because the person who helped kill you is guilty. You cannot be charged for any offence here in the uk for trying to or succeeding to take your own life. So says the suicide act of 1961. But we`re getting off the subject..
  42. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:05 pm
    A Better Article

    The BABY survived for 3 days after being delivered. Does that change anyone`s opinion?
  43. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:08 pm
    A "baby" didn`t die. A fetus was aborted due to the attempt. Now, if we want to make that a crime, fine. But there was no "baby" in this situation.

    For me, there`s an important difference between a foetus "being aborted" (which is dispassionate act conducted by medical professionals, and happens in a controlled clinical setting), and a pregnancy being terminated by some other deliberate act. That`s why there`s (correctly in my opinion) scope for charging someone that assaults a pregnant woman to the loss of her unborn child with murder. It`s not about whether the unborn child was viable or not in that instance. It`s about the intention of the perpetrator to do harm.
  44. Profile photo of DShephard
    DShephard Male 18-29
    1595 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:11 pm
    I have to agree with MacGuffin here.
    She makes a dang good point.
  45. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:15 pm
    Yes macguffin, I`m not talking about assisted suicide, that is illegal because the person who helped kill you is guilty. You cannot be charged for any offence here in the uk for trying to or succeeding to take your own life. So says the suicide act of 1961. But we`re getting off the subject..

    I didn`t say it was illegal to kill yourself, or that you could be charged with an offence for attempting to do so. Nor did I bring up the possibility of other people being prosecuted for assisting a suicidal person. I simply said that you don`t have a "right to try and end your own life", which is what you had asserted. The lack of such a `right` is the whole entire basis on which the state has legally prevented people from travelling when it has determined the intent to commit suicide exists. If there were such a right to kill yourself, under what basis do you think the state would be able to confiscate otherwise law-abiding people`s passports?
  46. Profile photo of TKD_Master
    TKD_Master Male 18-29
    4794 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:16 pm
    No, it`s a successful abortion.
  47. Profile photo of Xenophonix
    Xenophonix Female 18-29
    195 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:19 pm
    Macguffin, you absolutely _do_ have the right to kill yourself. It is only illegal if someone helps you. As I said before, the charges in assisted suicide are against the person helping you kill yourself, not the person Wanting to die.

    Our suicide act:
    1 Suicide to cease to be a crime.

    The rule of law whereby it is a crime for a person to commit suicide is hereby abrogated.
    2 Criminal liability for complicity in another’s suicide.

    (1)A person who aids, abets, counsels or procures the suicide of another, or an attempt by another to commit suicide, shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.
  48. Profile photo of LuckyDave
    LuckyDave Male 18-29
    675 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:25 pm
    At best she`s a victim of manslaughter (fetuslaughter?). But to be fair, if abortion is legal then these people charging her should not have a single leg to stand on. If abortion were illegal, then yes, they have a point; but since it is this woman should be released immediately and her criminal record wiped. She attempted to kill herself, maybe charge her with attempted suicide, but the ability to have an abortion should wash her hands of any crime implied or otherwise. In a clinical abortion the end product is the same, a fetus is killed, the only difference is that there is more paperwork and $500 shelled out.
  49. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:25 pm
    @Xenophonix how is it that it`s righteous to kill yourself but illegal for someone to assist you? Seems a little bit odd to me.
  50. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:26 pm
    @LuckyDave where is it legal to have an abortion at 33 weeks?
  51. Profile photo of Xenophonix
    Xenophonix Female 18-29
    195 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:29 pm
    BlankTom - it`s a safeguard against someone being coerced into committing suicide by another. It also has to do with our "duties as doctors" rules that under oath, doctors are not allowed to administer treatment with the intention of ending a life. The reason people are prevented to go oversees to commit suicide with dignitas is that there will be someone by definition killing you, which is illegal under uk law.
  52. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:29 pm
    Macguffin, you absolutely _do_ have the right to kill yourself. It is only illegal if someone helps you.

    I notice that you used the word "right" in your first sentence, but "illegal" in your second, whilst directly comparing the two entirely different concepts, which suggests you`re confusing the two, wilfully or not.

    I can assure you, you don`t have a "right to kill yourself", despite it not being "illegal" to do so. Try telling your GP that you intend to kill yourself tomorrow, and that it`s your right to do so: you`ll find yourself in a secure mental hospital for your own protection before you can say "but it`s my right!". Attempt and fail suicide, and there`s a fair chance the same thing will happen to you. Try and starve yourself to death: you`ll find yourself under involuntary feeding in that same mental health facility.
  53. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:30 pm
    From BlankTom`s article: "She is being prosecuted under laws originally intended to punish third parties who attack pregnant women and injure or kill fetuses."

    --Called it
  54. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3876 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:31 pm
    As a man unless you are the father you have zero say in what she does with her body. That being said I would have waited a few weeks and given the kid up for adoption. The fact that she didn`t points to her being mentally disturbed. Because of that I`m going to back away slowly from this post.
  55. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:36 pm
    I think an important point is that she was fully aware of, and potentially counting on, the impending termination of the fetus. She wrote her boyfriend "...and I`m taking this baby with me." as in... "F*ck you, I`m going to kill both myself AND this baby." Which shows intent both to harm herself and to harm the fetus. It`s legal to harm yourself, but it`s not legal to intentionally harm a pregnant woman`s fetus (after a certain point in the pregnancy).

    The question is, is it still illegal to harm the fetus if the pregnant woman in question is yourself?
  56. Profile photo of Xenophonix
    Xenophonix Female 18-29
    195 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:36 pm
    Macguffin - There is a _law_ which you can detain people under the mental health act for if someone has a mental illness which causes a lack of mental capacity for them to make informed choices - ie: they are crazy therefore they are not in the right mind to make an informed decision about suicide. Yes, most patients who want to commit suicide are mentally unsound and therefore should be detained in their own best interests. People still have the right to kill themselves though. In my last post I was saying you have the _right_ to kill yourself, but it is illegal to do so with assistance. I am not confusing right and law - patients who are detained from committing suicide are detained under lawful proceedings.
  57. Profile photo of mar95789
    mar95789 Female 18-29
    193 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:41 pm
    Yes
  58. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:46 pm
    Something tells me you wont ever get it, Xeno, no matter how much anyone explains the differences between "rights" (which enable you to do things) and "laws" (which dictate your responsibilities). All I can say is, I`ve got experience of working in the Police Service in the UK, and you haven`t. There are cases on file of people having their passports confiscated to prevent them from exercising that "right" you would like to believe they have to commit suicide, despite them not having committed any offence that would warrant such a seizure or travel restriction. Even when they`ve not otherwise been detained under the Mental Health Act or considered incapable of making their own decisions. Believe it or don`t, it wont make it stop being true.
  59. Profile photo of Xenophonix
    Xenophonix Female 18-29
    195 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:54 pm
    Macguffin, I`m tired and this is off the subject so I`ll try and put myself across simply. I am a GP. Laws are things made that stop people exacting their rights because it may harm themselves or others. You have a right to kill yourself. There are certain laws that can take away this right - for example in assisted suicide or where you lack mental capacity to make an informed decision. But the fact remains that outside these laws, there is nothing preventing your right to kill yourself. I don`t know whether in the police you are trained to see things as more black and White for ease of admin, but the fact remains that if I wanted to take an overdose tonight and I did not tell anyone then I am perfectly within my rights to do so and it would be perfectly legal.

    You are confusing the cases where law has taken away my rights for safety reasons.
  60. Profile photo of emmettyville
    emmettyville Female 40-49
    4345 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 6:58 pm
    if abortion is legal, then, no.
    if it`s not, then yes.
    is it morally wrong? that all depends on your views, doesn`t it.
  61. Profile photo of Insomniac89
    Insomniac89 Male 18-29
    42 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 7:14 pm
    Nope, just abortion.
  62. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 7:17 pm
    >Macguffin, I`m tired...You have a right to kill yourself. <

    I`m not really bothered about you being tired, tbh.

    Nobody argued that those people who had their passports confiscated were mentally incapable of making an informed decision to end their own life. Their passports were confiscated on the simple basis that they didn`t have a right to do so, and on no other grounds.

    It honestly worries me that there`s a GP who thinks suicide is "a right". I wouldn`t plan on keeping your registration with the GMC if you were foolish enough to express that uninformed opinion to your peers.

    To close, here is a recent case that highlights the actual rights people have (from Ireland, not the UK), just for you. I wont comment on this topic further, as I`m quite certain you`ll continue to believe whatever you want in any case.
  63. Profile photo of Xenophonix
    Xenophonix Female 18-29
    195 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 7:31 pm
    Macguffin, I`m not trying to offend you, and it is interesting that you have leapt to insulting me, but you are confusing me when you repeatedly say about people having their passports confiscated because they want to go to dignitas - an assisted suicide centre. The passports were confiscated because assisted suicide is illegal, not because she doesn`t have a right to kill herself...

    Perhaps we are at odds because you are using legal cases to defend rightful causes, it even says in the article that you posted that The gardia
  64. Profile photo of Xenophonix
    Xenophonix Female 18-29
    195 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 7:33 pm
    Were threatening legal action.

    The right to die debate is only about assisted suicide, not killing yourself!
  65. Profile photo of FeelTheRide
    FeelTheRide Female 18-29
    515 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 7:39 pm
    If that baby would have been born at 33 weeks it probably would have survived. Very sad. I`m very pro choice; but this just seems wrong.
  66. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 7:45 pm
    @FeelTheRide the baby *was* born. IT survived for 3 days before it died due to the poison. The article "somehow" manages to leave that important bit of information out.
  67. Profile photo of Ajikan
    Ajikan Male 18-29
    1526 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 7:55 pm
    Since they were conjoined.
    I say the baby committed suicide successfully. The child and the mother was one organism at the time she drank poison.
    I view abortion the same way I view getting a haircut or cutting your nails.

    (Scenario where I would consider it murder:)If she drank poison then breastfeed the baby, that would be murder since they are no longer conjoined. Unless she decided to keep it leached on her umbilical cord, and it was functioning. To my knowledge it dries out if you don`t cut it off.
  68. Profile photo of leesah
    leesah Female 18-29
    1566 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 8:02 pm
    "You have a right to kill yourself."

    You do not have a civil right to kill yourself. You have a human right to kill yourself. Human rights have nothing to do at all with law but civil rights ARE effected by law. So you`re both right but you`re right in different contexts and neither one of you are willing to get on the same page.
  69. Profile photo of FeelTheRide
    FeelTheRide Female 18-29
    515 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 8:12 pm
    @BlankTom; let me rephrase: If the baby had been born under normal circumstances (minus the poison) it would have survived. Should have clarified that in the first place.
  70. Profile photo of Xenophonix
    Xenophonix Female 18-29
    195 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 8:15 pm
    Leesah - thankyou so much for your post! It all becomes clear, I was absolutely talking about human rights, perhaps if you had come along earlier, an argument could have been spared ;) I guess we are both right in our own way :/
  71. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 8:22 pm
    An Even Better Article
    So the *real* story is that she was seeing a married man and is carrying her child. She got distraught when he told her that he wouldn`t leave his wife to setup a family with her.

    So she writes a suicide note to her "boyfriend" telling him that she plans on "taking this baby with me". And what does she do after taking the poison???? Surprise, surprise contacts some of her close friend to tell them what she did.

    She gets rushed to the hospital and they save her life and successfully deliver her baby. Three days later, the baby dies as a result of the poisoning.
  72. Profile photo of chunkymonkie
    chunkymonkie Male 13-17
    670 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 8:27 pm
    Attempting suicide but not succeeding is the most pathetic thing ever.
  73. Profile photo of thesandwich
    thesandwich Male 18-29
    150 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 8:30 pm
    Now she did write in the note that she intended to take herself and the baby. And her (attempted) method was to drink a fatal amount of rat poison.

    Does anyone actually think she was of sound mind and body when she made this decision? Yes a note does indicate premeditation, but there is premeditation in school shootings and I don`t anyone would argue the attackers were of sound mind and body.

    All and all this is truly an awful thing, a woman was left to her own with a child she could not care for and was so depressed about it she attempted to take her own life. At the most the woman deserves mental help, sadly not many people see that there is more than one victim here.
  74. Profile photo of intrigid
    intrigid Male 18-29
    914 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 8:36 pm
    To answer the question, no, it`s not murder.

    And regardless of what any law says, as far as I`m concerned, you have the right to kill yourself. To suggest otherwise is to argue that you are someone else`s property. To me that is morally unfathomable.
  75. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 8:39 pm
    @thesandwich the reason it was only an "attempt" was because she called her friend after taking the poison and then was rushed to the hospital.

    Do you think someone who takes poison then immediately after confesses to someone dear to them is *really* trying to commit suicide?
  76. Profile photo of EmagehtmaI
    EmagehtmaI Male 18-29
    187 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 8:41 pm
    Didn`t read the article, but how far along is she? Abortion arguments aside, I think it would probably be a safe bet to say that if she was past the stage where she could legally obtain an abortion, then she should be held accountable for the life of her infant (involuntary manslaughter, at least). If she was still in the stage where she could legally obtain an abortion, then (even though I personally don`t believe in abortions, yet I still believe in a woman`s right to choose) she should not be charged.
  77. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 8:43 pm
    "Didn`t read the article, but how far along is she? Abortion arguments aside, I think it would probably be a safe bet to say that if she was past the stage where she could legally obtain an abortion, then she should be held accountable for the life of her infant (involuntary manslaughter, at least). If she was still in the stage where she could legally obtain an abortion, then (even though I personally don`t believe in abortions, yet I still believe in a woman`s right to choose) she should not be charged."

    I didn`t read your post but i`m assuming you asked me what color my shoes are. They are brown.
  78. Profile photo of EmagehtmaI
    EmagehtmaI Male 18-29
    187 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 8:45 pm
    Never mind. Thirty-three weeks pregnant? Heck, my sister went into labor at 35 weeks, and babies have survived at... 22 weeks? Twenty-four? Yeah, at 33 weeks pregnant, she should definitely be charged with SOMETHING.
  79. Profile photo of Metalcraze
    Metalcraze Male 18-29
    101 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 9:27 pm
    Children aren`t even safe in the womb,humanity is nothing but monsters.
  80. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 9:28 pm
    Alright people, this is homicide of some sort. The baby was born and then died due to the rat poisoning. The fetus was developed enough to survive outside of the womb. I`d say that`s a definition of `the beginning of life` that everyone here should be able to agree on. I don`t really think this is up to debate. The reasons for her `attempted suicide` are stupid too. Maybe forced sterilization isn`t such a bad thing... (I kid, I kid) If she truly wanted to die, I don`t know that she would have called folks.
  81. Profile photo of lostinkorea
    lostinkorea Female 30-39
    3727 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 9:53 pm
    @Metalcraze: I concur, nothing has value anymore and it`s only going to get worse. If she wants to die then put her on death row.
  82. Profile photo of leesah
    leesah Female 18-29
    1566 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 9:55 pm
    "I`d say that`s a definition of `the beginning of life` that everyone here should be able to agree on."

    30 weeks is my personal cut off point. 23 weeks is technically how early a baby can "survive" outside of the womb, if you count being hooked up to machines that are essentially acting like an artificial womb while the baby finishes developing "surviving".
  83. Profile photo of thesandwich
    thesandwich Male 18-29
    150 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 10:20 pm
    -BlankTom: so drinking rat poison was just for fun of the taste and a stomach pump? Not everyone who attempts continues to fruition. And many who attempt don`t succeed on the first try, they call those attempts "hesitation marks".

    If anything atleast after ingesting the poison she had a moment of clarity to realize that she didn`t want to die. But at the time she was so distraught that she downed some.

    In case you haven`t noticed sometimes things get over-dramatized in the brain but once that actual consequences are in front of someone there is a moment of clarity. Like at all the highschool kids thinking not getting invited to the party is the end of the world only to realize it`s not (not the greatest analogy, but there isn`t a good one to compare to suicide).

    Look, there are two victims in this story, one is dead and the other severely distraught from (and during) the whole ordeal. Unless you think the actual intent was only to kill the fetus whi
  84. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 10:50 pm
    "You do not have a civil right to kill yourself. You have a human right to kill yourself."

    Ninth amendment, one of my favorites, known as the "covered our asses" amendment:

    "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

    Which translates to:
    "Just because we didn`t specifically spell out a right here doesn`t mean that you don`t have it."

    So if it`s generally agreed upon that you have a human right to suicide, it can be argued that it`s in the Constitution.
  85. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 11:03 pm
    @DrProfessor They were talking about laws in the UK, not the US.
  86. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    May 31, 2012 at 11:24 pm
    @eddy666--they were earlier, but I don`t think the person I was quoting was actually referencing UK civil rights. That said, this occurred in Indiana, so UK law is completely irrelevant to begin with.

    If we`re going to argue over whether this woman had the right to dispatch of herself (along with her fetus), we should do so in the framework of the legal system she is subject to.
  87. Profile photo of leesah
    leesah Female 18-29
    1566 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 12:34 am
    "So if it`s generally agreed upon that you have a human right to suicide, it can be argued that it`s in the Constitution."

    By definition of a human right it ignores government and law completely. You have it because you are a human. It doesn`t care whether or not its in anyone`s Constitution.
  88. Profile photo of casidhe
    casidhe Female 40-49
    62 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 1:53 am
    This is so sad. Nobody normally behaves this way.The fact she behaved in such an extreme way causing harm to herself and death to her unborn child indicates that for her the circumstances of her life were beyond her capacity to endure rationally. She deserves our deepest compassion.
  89. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 2:02 am
    You do not have a civil right...You have a human right to kill yourself.

    I don`t know about specific laws in the US (I`m sure a US lawyer will be along to advise - *shouts for Maddux*). In the UK, though, the term "Human Rights" refers specifically to those rights that you acquire through three related pieces of legislation: 1) the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that was written at the end of WW2 (and which is an international law), 2) The European Convention on Human Rights, and 3) The UK`s Human Rights Act 1998.

    Whilst each of these pieces of legislation asserts a "right to life", none of them asserts any `right to take your own life`.

    Just because a given act wont cause you to be criminally prosecuted, doesn`t mean you have the de facto `right` to commit that act, or that the authorities wont stop you if they find you`re planning to commit that act should they discover your plans in advance or in progress.
  90. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 2:05 am
    So if it`s generally agreed upon that you have a human right to suicide, it can be argued that it`s in the Constitution.

    If.
  91. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 2:41 am
    Another salutory piece of case law here. The 16-year-old woman involved even used the phrase "I know my rights" when confronted with the possibility of the state intervening in her desire to die. As it turns out, she didn`t `know her rights` nearly as well as she thought.
  92. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 3:28 am
    Who wants a baby that comes pre-tattooed?
  93. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 4:04 am
    @thesandwich it`s a cry for attention and a way of "getting even" with her boyfriend. I would bet that the only reason he stayed with her for as long as he did was because she threatened to kill herself if he left. So when he did leave, she did the "i`ll show him - he`ll be sorry if i *try* and kill myself." I`ve known too many people like her that this makes me sick.
  94. Profile photo of 8BitHero
    8BitHero Male 18-29
    5414 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 4:29 am
    Also,
    is it a murder if you have multiple personalities and one of them is suicidal and the other isn`t?
  95. Profile photo of Xenophonix
    Xenophonix Female 18-29
    195 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 4:34 am
    Macguffin - I see where we were disagreeing now - Evey case you have submitted in defence of your argument has the mental capacity act or the assisted suicide illegality to explain it. The last case of the 16 year old you posted was an example of her being forcefully kept alive because, and I quote, "she could not think logically because of her (mental) condition.

    The law does not stop people from committing suicide, in fact the Suicide Act 1961 decriminalized suicide and attempted suicide. However, this does not extend to giving "claim right" to commit suicide (i.e. expect others to provide). As a result, this decriminalization should be interpreted as "liberty right", people cannot be stopped from committing suicide but one cannot demand a suicide.

    I give you the quote above from the ministry of ethics. Do not confuse assisted suicide and mental health issues for people having no right in this area. If you can give me one example where someo
  96. Profile photo of Xenophonix
    Xenophonix Female 18-29
    195 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 4:36 am
    One was prevented from killing themselves where mental capacity or them demanding assisted suicides involved, I will bow down and admit that you are right.
  97. Profile photo of Byfield
    Byfield Male 18-29
    464 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 4:50 am
    Yes, she murdered the baby, but I would call it manslaughter. However, I do not think it warrants a heavy sentence: More just a criminal record and a black mark to her name.
  98. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 4:56 am
    Since merely expressing the desire to kill yourself in the absence of terminal illness is usually cited as sufficient evidence of a diminished mental capacity, regardless of other factors, it`s a moot point. Provided the authorities can find a doctor willing to sign a mental incapacity form (and they always can), you`ll be prevented from committing suicide if you express an intention to do so, or your plans are discovered in advance.

    The only case I can think of that came close to challenging this legal precedent in recent times, was this one. In that case, the person had already committed the act, and it became an issue of whether to provide non-consensual treatment after the fact, rather than about prevention. Personally, I think the Coroner would have backed the doctor faced with that dilemma, whatever they had assessed the victim`s mental state to be.
  99. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 4:58 am
    Also,
    is it a murder if you have multiple personalities and one of them is suicidal and the other isn`t?

    No, that`s a hostage situation. You`d just shoot the hostage (and co-incidentally, the hostage-taker). :P
  100. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 5:10 am
    Yes, she murdered the baby, but I would call it manslaughter. However, I do not think it warrants a heavy sentence: More just a criminal record and a black mark to her name.

    If she murdered the baby, it can`t be manslaughter, and vice versa. It`s all about intent.

    My personal feeling, after considering the situation, is that it all boils down to whether she was mentally incapacitated. If she was, compulsory mental treatment to protect other innocent people that might be harmed by future suicide attempts seems appropriate. If not, unfortunately it appears to be a criminal offence on the scale of culpable homicide or murder, depending on the intent. For me, she declared her intent quite clearly when she wrote that she was "taking the baby with her" in her suicide note.
  101. Profile photo of ggolbez
    ggolbez Male 18-29
    1933 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 6:31 am
    If this is murder, then any sort of miscarriage is murder as well. Any situation in which the mother was not able to carry a child to term is considered murder.

    Frankly, I refuse to believe that.
  102. Profile photo of Whitemn
    Whitemn Male 18-29
    155 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 6:44 am
    Those that didn`t read the article, The state`s 1979 feticide law makes it a crime to do anything to an expectant mother that causes the death of her fetus, and Shuai did what she did knowing — intending — that it would kill her unborn child. She even wrote her former boyfriend a suicide note saying she was "taking this baby with me."

    So she knew willingly. Now should she get 45 to life for a mental issue, that`s another question entirely.
  103. Profile photo of darkmagic14n
    darkmagic14n Male 18-29
    1625 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 6:44 am
    If this is murder, then any sort of miscarriage is murder as well.

    by your logic, someone who shoots someone dead is as much a murderer as a doctor who loses a patient while trying to save his/her life
  104. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 6:58 am
    If this is murder, then any sort of miscarriage is murder as well. Any situation in which the mother was not able to carry a child to term is considered murder.

    Oh really? Perhaps you can elaborate on why those entirely different situations are so similar in your mind?
  105. Profile photo of Trillian42
    Trillian42 Female 18-29
    357 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 7:15 am
    Apologies if someone else has said this, but how do we know that she was trying to kill herself and not just her baby?
  106. Profile photo of darkmagic14n
    darkmagic14n Male 18-29
    1625 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 7:22 am
    Oh really? Perhaps you can elaborate on why those entirely different situations are so similar in your mind?

    explain how a miscarriage (an accidental death of a baby while the caretaker is being responsible, presumably) is the same as someone willingly/knowingly taking a baby`s life is similar.

    would it help if I changed the murderer to a doctor?

    a doctor willingly and knowingly gives a patient medicine he knows will kill the patient as opposed to a doctor who loses a patient while trying his hardest to keep the patient alive.
  107. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 7:40 am
    explain how a miscarriage (an accidental death of a baby while the caretaker is being responsible, presumably) is the same as someone willingly/knowingly taking a baby`s life is similar.

    would it help if I changed the murderer to a doctor?

    a doctor willingly and knowingly gives a patient medicine he knows will kill the patient as opposed to a doctor who loses a patient while trying his hardest to keep the patient alive.

    Somehow it doesn`t surprise me that you type without capitalisation. None of that made any sense whatsoever.
  108. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 7:44 am
    Apologies if someone else has said this, but how do we know that she was trying to kill herself and not just her baby?

    I guess because of the method; it could have been lethal to herself if she`d done it `properly`. If there were indications she wasn`t really at risk owing to some aspect of how she went about it, I suppose that`d be for a prosecution to highlight.
  109. Profile photo of darkmagic14n
    darkmagic14n Male 18-29
    1625 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 7:48 am
    None of that made any sense whatsoever.

    if you can`t comprehend said situation, then you`re not worth arguing with.

    my use of capitalization to start a sentence is irrelevant to said conversation. my sentences have proper grammar and punctuation and are thus legible.
  110. Profile photo of tedgp
    tedgp Male 30-39
    3287 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 8:27 am
    If that is murder then so is abortion.
  111. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 8:35 am
    @tedgp Right, and abortions aren`t given that late in development.
  112. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 8:46 am
    If that is murder then so is abortion.

    I like the way you guys like to keep making assertions like "if this is murder, then any sort of miscarriage is murder" and "if that is murder then so is abortion" without ever explaining what the hell either miscarriage or abortion have to do with this.
  113. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 8:47 am
    @MacGuffin
    "My personal feeling, after considering the situation, is that it all boils down to whether she was mentally incapacitated."

    May be different in UK law, but in the US, mental illness can always be claimed for just about any crime. It still goes to court, though. They would just send her to a mental institution (and hopefully a damn good one. This women seems to need serious help.) instead of jail.

    As for the claims of her craving attention and not wanting to kill herself, that`s going to require further evidence to determine, but I`d say that it`s definitely a possibility. If it`s revealed that she has talked about this plan before this incident actually happened, then I`d say that she probably never had the intention of following through with dying. If she was silent about it the whole time until it happened, then maybe she really DID want to die. In my opinion, I think this should go to court. Whether or not she has a mental issue can be dec
  114. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 8:49 am
    "I like the way you guys like to keep making assertions like "if this is murder, then any sort of miscarriage is murder" and "if that is murder then so is abortion" without ever explaining what the hell either miscarriage or abortion have to do with this."

    The abortion argument might be relevant if the baby were still early along in development. I don`t understand where these people are getting miscarriages from though.
  115. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 9:01 am
    May be different in UK law, but in the US, mental illness can always be claimed for just about any crime. It still goes to court, though. They would just send her to a mental institution (and hopefully a damn good one. This women seems to need serious help.) instead of jail.

    IANAL, but I`m pretty sure it`s the same here in the UK, that you can apply "diminished responsibility" to just about any crime.

    The closest case to this one I can think of is a US woman that was sentenced to 8 years in a psychiatric facility, when she tried to commit suicide by crashing her car. She didn`t die, but three men in the car she crashed into did. I just re-checked, and it seems the woman - Jeanette Sliwinski - did just over three years in prison in that case. I don`t know how that came to be if she was originally sentenced to psychiatric treatment. Anyway, for me, whilst there are differences, this is about an equivalent crime.
  116. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 9:46 am
    @MacGuffin
    Yea, my point is it`s still worth discussing how this case should be treated. Should she be tried as a murderer or something like neglect? Hopefully, we will be fed some more evidence, as what we have now doesn`t make a whole lot clear.
  117. Profile photo of Student_Law
    Student_Law Male 30-39
    1010 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 10:48 am
    Her intent was not to kill the baby, it was to kill her self - though it also means killing the baby. Her intent was to kill both, in that manner.

    At the 33rd week the baby has a functioning brain, it can hear, smell and see. Babies who are born between 33rd and 36st week pregnancy are determined as "Pre- term". Babies born as early as 28th week have a fair chance of survival.
    This is important because she had another human being inside of her. That person is dead.

    She was in a crappy situation though and her suicide attempt clearly failed, and now she is on trial too, so her situation is unique. Also, the baby was, for the time, dependent on her body. It`s not like she shot the baby while holding up a liquor- store, or ran it over with the car.
  118. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 11:05 am
    @Student_Law
    No, her intent was clearly to kill both. She says so in the suicide note. That`s why this is even being considered as a murder case.
  119. Profile photo of leesah
    leesah Female 18-29
    1566 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 11:25 am
    "In the UK, though, the term "Human Rights" refers specifically to those rights that you acquire through three related pieces of legislation"

    I`m sorry, you seem to think human rights give a fxck about your country attempting to legislate them. They are universal. You have them because you are human, not because you follow UK law. They apply to me, you, the starving kid in Africa, the scientist from Russia who`s doing polar bear research in Antarctica, the Asian kid busting his balls in class, and the back of the wood rednecks in the South. I am absolutely astonished that you seem to have no grasp at all on the topic. Maybe it would be easier for you if we called them "natural rights", as some choose to do. You have the "natural right" to die as you please or to live as you please. You may or may not have the civil right to any depending on your location. "The fact that I was able to do it confirms my right to do so."
  120. Profile photo of leesah
    leesah Female 18-29
    1566 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 11:38 am
    How about a practical example. Say you`re a male and you decide to have children with your newlywed wife who already has two young kids from a previous marriage. It is your natural right to kill those two children because they are not biologically yours and you do not have to care for them as though they are. It is not, however, your civil right to do so. Civil rights are established by law. Natural rights are established by nature. They rarely coincide and neither may be governed by the other, that is, your natural right to kill those children may not be governed by their civil right to live, but their civil right to live may not be governed by your natural right to abandon all but your own biological offspring, which is where morals come into play which is why you don`t often see anyone going all male lion on their step-children.
  121. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 11:56 am
    I`m sorry, you seem to think human rights give a fxck about your country attempting to legislate them.

    Actually, I thought I`d been pretty clear in stating that they were based on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which is international law that the USA and others created and are signatories to, but do carry on with your rant: you seem to be enjoying it so much it`s a shame to let little things like facts get in the way.

    So anyway, back on topic, do tell me, where is this "human right to commit suicide" that you claimed exists recorded again?
  122. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 12:10 pm
    Should she be tried as a murderer or something like neglect?

    I suppose that would depend on whom you asked. She`ll probably be tried for whatever the equivalent of manslaughter (causing a death without malicious intent to do so) is in the US, purely because the burden of proof for that offence is lower than for murder, and the prosecution will weigh the possibility of getting a conviction for that lesser offence with the risk of their not quite being able to convince a jury to convict on a murder charge (and, for that matter, the risk of public outcry if she was convicted of outright murder). In my estimation, though, if you want to be able to charge a person that assaults a pregnant woman and causes her to lose her child with murder, then you need to consider this type of act in the same light, particularly with the weight of evidence concerning intent that the suicide note represents.
  123. Profile photo of 8BitHero
    8BitHero Male 18-29
    5414 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 12:12 pm
    Obviously if she wanted to kill herself it would would mean end of the support for the baby so it the baby would die in the process. The only difference here is that she killed the baby and lived..
  124. Profile photo of paddy215
    paddy215 Male 18-29
    1677 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 1:08 pm
    She deliberately killed her child in an unlawful manner. If someone else fed her the rat poison and the same thing happened would that person have murdered the baby?
  125. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 1:38 pm
    @paddy215 Depends on that persons intent.
  126. Profile photo of pigsnout5
    pigsnout5 Female 18-29
    546 posts
    June 1, 2012 at 6:41 pm
    yes it`s murder because the unborn child was an innocent. i say death penalty to her!!
  127. Profile photo of han5nah
    han5nah Female 13-17
    735 posts
    June 2, 2012 at 11:23 am
    It`s a baby, not a people. Sillies.
  128. Profile photo of Justin9235
    Justin9235 Male 18-29
    1582 posts
    June 4, 2012 at 7:55 am
    No. First off it was unintentional and therefore could only be perceived as manslaughter at best. Second, and most importantly, an unborn baby is not a person (I`m not having some moral or religious debate here. Legally speaking, an unborn child is not a person) and has no rights. Therefore it`s not legally murder to kill it.
  129. Profile photo of Hisky
    Hisky Male 18-29
    117 posts
    June 5, 2012 at 7:47 am
    Agreed. She was clearly mentally ill and so cannot be held responsible for the death of her child.

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