The Religious Right`s Biggest Dilemma [Pic]

Submitted by: eugenius 5 years ago in

Check and mate.
There are 117 comments:
Male 542
What kind of tumbler-esque stupidity is this?
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Male 2
Duh of course you would,what a stupid question
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Male 41,539
@mcboozerilla... agrees with me? WOW!

I do understand that "it`s her body" but also, the male is supposed to PAY for 18 years? And he has NO rights at all?

I say we take a page from Islam: If a man knocks up a woman, he must pay the woman the price of the abortion and THAT is all. She can abort, or not! HER choice!

Of course I`m "paraphrasing" Islam here, they do NOT allow abortions!
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Male 646
imnakdjumpme, the father of a baby has every right to be considered. It isn`t only the "woman`s body" in play. Grow a pair, ffs.
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Male 598
5Cats, Not that you have one, but your husband has no rights to your body unless you say he does. A man should not dictate what a woman does with her body, even if he knocked her up.
Nor should a man pretend to understand what its like to make the decision to carry one or not.
One day i would like to think that abortion will be very restricted because it wont be an issue with better access to contraception, education, and easier adoption practices, but dont think there wouldnt be horrible repercussions if they banned abortion tomorrow. dumpsters will be full by sundown...
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Male 17,511
madest: Even Stephen Colbert wouldn`t run that story and he`s the biggest idiot pretending to do news on the planet.

Quit citing blogs that endless re-link to themselves, otherwise you`re showing your IQ, Nil.
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Male 5,811
@Penguinato: While you are right that latino and black teens have higher pregnancy rates than white teens, this is usually only found in states that don`t have comprehensive sex education programs. States with good sex ed programs have lower rates of teen pregnancy across the racial board. Those states with abstinence only programs have the highest rates of teen pregnancy. It`s not new and it`s not an issue that can be distilled to race or income. It`s about education, plain and simple.
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Male 7,378
Yeah Darwin was full-a-crap. Climate scientists are full-a-crap. Now researchers linking republicans, racism and low IQ are full-a-crap. You gotta do better than that because you`re not proving the researchers wrong with vapid comments.

Besides, do you really think FoxNews would run this story? Your showing your IQ if you do.
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Male 1,293
Someone has no idea what religious people believe, so posts this crap.

No religious person refuses to support the rights of a gay person fully. What they disagree about is what those rights are.
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Male 17,511
madest: Your linking to a blog whose only sources are other links within the blog, that link to further links within the blog.

4 layers in, clicking through their own internal citations, and I could find NO externally cited research.

Congratulations, I believe you may have found the black hole of perpetually endless internal link blogs that build one lie upon another and another and another.
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Female 31
@evanbartlett

Thank you, it makes me happy to know that someone gets it.
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Male 559
"A person`s lifestyle is ultimately chosen by themselves. "

Which is the very reason why being gay isn`t a lifestyle. Going to bars, walking in political parades, living in a massive city and having indiscriminate sex is a lifestyle. Being married with children, living in the suburbs and working 50 hour weeks is a lifestyle. But having a sexual attraction to one`s own gender is not a lifestyle. BTW: The former represents my brother, the latter is me. He`s straight. I`m gay.
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Male 294
That`s a good question, the problem is that if someone actually didn`t believe in gay rights, they`d likely be of the mindset that being gay is a learned behavior, which would mean to them a fetus couldn`t be gay until it learned to be so. Crazy.

@patchgrabber: That graph isn`t surprising as it doesn`t seem to take into account the larger variance in wealth here, the degree to which they don`t have in europe from what I understand.

I don`t mean to insult anyone, but I`d really like to know the percentages for, say, blacks and latinos vs. whites, or even better, I`d like to know the percentages based upon income. I think that would shed some light on the disparity.

I`m not sure what I`m talking about here, or what you`re even arguing about that led to you putting that up. Hell, I don`t even know why I said anything. I think I had a reason, but I forget now, or I might have been confused because the graph is right above my comment box.
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Female 4,528
boooyah!
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Male 599
Oh look out, guys. Madest is back with his research.
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Male 7,378
"Once again you trash intolerance while simultaneously lumping all republicans into one intolerable group. You are the unknowing example of your own hatred".
------------
I was merely citing research.
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Male 1,071
Just give yourself an extra 5 seconds to pull out, that`s what I`ve been doing for 15 years! Works every time!

Except that one time...that abortion costed me a months rent :(
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Male 5,811
[quote]who opposes "abstinace education"? The abortionists, that`s who![/quote]
Abstinence education has been proven to be just as effective at preventing sexual behaviour as no education at all.

Source: Christopher Trenholm, et al., “Impacts of Four Title V, Section 510 Abstinence Education Programs,” Mathematica Policy Research Inc., April 2007



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Male 5,811
@5cats: Are you seriously starting up with this Skinner Box garbage again? Those experiments were proven to not be valid [quote]in situ[/quote]. And as to your question of whether there is a "heterosexual gene", if you had read my earlier comments you would see that it is possibly just one expression of a polymorphic gene.
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Male 3,431
O.M.F.G.

It takes intelligence to recognize intelligence, but any idiot can recognize this as genius.
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Male 41,539
[quote]"We are unfashioned creatures, but half made-up."[/quote]
Can`t argue with that! Mary Shelly was ahead of her time, no doubt.
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Male 599
Also, I want to quote Mary Shelly`s Frankenstein to finish my semi-rant off:
"We are unfashioned creatures, but half made-up."
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Male 599
That being said, there are certain characteristics and personality types that are counter-productive to this over-arching goal to make human life meaningful, and this whole "It`s not my fault" and "I can just make my problems go away" mindset is one of humanity`s biggest opponents, in my opinion.
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Male 41,539
[quote]A person`s lifestyle is ultimately chosen by themselves.[/quote]
Exactly @ivran! What you DO speaks volumems about who you are.
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Male 41,539
A Canadian doctor had many patients who were RAPED by men when they were boys. They grew up believing they were "gay" because of that. So they lived the gay lifestyle, and were immensely unhappy.
Given therapy, they came to undestand that being raped didn`t "make them gay" and they converted to a heterosexual lifestyle. Not all of them, but about 70-80%.
He published a paper on his findings... and was mercylessly attacked!
Not on the merits of his work, oh no! But on his "homophobia".
This is the same guy who removed homosexuality from the mental illness list BTW. Obviously NOT a "homophobe".
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Male 599
have a hell of a time doing it, too.
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Male 599
Fetuses that get aborted are probably better of dying(If that`s what even happens) a painless death than being raised by parent(s) that don`t care about their well-being and not mature enough to take responsibility for their actions anyways.

Also, I don`t really buy into the whole "you are born gay" thing. I`m not saying homosexuality is a choice, but I find it hard to believe that a baby boy has a biological longing for wanger straight out his momma. I think personality is partially influenced by genes, but the rest of it is influenced by a person`s surroundings. These are just influences though. A person`s lifestyle is ultimately chosen by themselves. People refuse to even consider this idea though because people these days refuse to take responsibility for anything(take a look at politics) I don`t believe in right or wrong - morality is all relative any way. I believe that humanity`s sole purpose for existence is to survive and keep progressing, discovering, and
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Male 41,539
[quote]abstinence taught that it is the best way to prevent pregnancy and STDs[/quote]

@otto: but it IS the best way, correct?
The why do groups like Planned Parenthood completely oppose teaching it EVEN with other forms of birth control?

[quote]If sexual attraction is learned then it could be unlearned...[/quote]
And I know of tons of research that shows this exact thing. Much of it done by the very man who championed "gay rights" and had it removed from the list of "mental illnesses"! But it`s BANNED from the MSM because it "must be homophobic" eh?
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Male 438
"That`s the same thing."

My point was that there may not be one gene, it could be a combination of genes and variables and still not be a choice. If sexual attraction is learned then it could be unlearned...I know of no evidence that supports this view.

"HA! I`ve seen it first hand. ALL references to "abstinance" are utterly rejected by the pro-abortion crowd."

Yaeah and I have seen first hand abstinence taught that it is the best way to prevent pregnancy and STDs, and then other options given,(condoms, the pill, ect.) and the pros and cons of each discussed.

You are lumping all those you disagree with in one pile.



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Male 31
except fetuses aren`t gay
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Male 41,539
[quote]1. I said genetic OR proven it is not a choice.[/quote]

Um, respectfully @otto? That`s the same thing. It`s GENETIC what colour your eyes are. You can TEST it before you are born, ok?
Other than that? It`s CHOICE. Perhaps highly influenced by genetics? Sure! But choice nonetheless!

[quote]They don`t oppose abstinance education....they oppose ONLY teaching abstinance, there is a big difference.[/quote]

HA! I`ve seen it first hand. ALL references to "abstinance" are utterly rejected by the pro-abortion crowd. Not "only"... ANYTHING!

Black market? lolz! With the government writing the cheques, the abortionists in Canada have been making a killing!
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Male 438
"AND: who opposes "abstinace education"? The abortionists, that`s who!"

5cats, really? they don`t oppose abstinance education....they oppose ONLY teaching abstinance, there is a big difference.

And abortion is not much of a money maker, the abortionists would be better of pushing for it to be illegal so they could then charge black market prices.
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Male 438
5cats.

1. I said genetic OR proven it is not a choice.

2. The basic definition you provided would not define homosexuality as disease.....but hypothetically even if it did, what is your point?

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Male 41,539
[quote]I bet that would open a flood gate of rape accusations.[/quote]
Yup! No doubt it would.
[quote]practices safe sex with her husband[/quote]
Does the husband have any say in the matter? No? Next question.
[quote]but its the pro-lifers that keep that from happening.[/quote]
I respectfully disagree. The "pro-homosexualists" have been campaigning since the 70`s to FORCE schools to teach "lifestyle education" ok? I`ve seen this first hand! To blame one side for intolerance when the other side is pushing "other agendas" isn`t fair.
AND: who opposes "abstinace education"? The abortionists, that`s who!
[quote]NOBODY wants to see abortions happen.[/quote]
Except those who make $$$ off it, that`s who!
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Male 735
sure thing! who doesn`t love gay babies!
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Male 598
5cats, so its okay to give a woman the choice to kill the fetus if it wasnt her choice to have sex? I bet that would open a flood gate of rape accusations.
I find it hypocritical and misguided to say i will only listen to the woman`s opinion and ALLOW her to make the choice, if she is the victim of rape.
Basically you are saying a fetus is more important than the woman bearing it, unless she was a victim first.
Also, if a woman practices safe sex with her husband, but the contraception fails, why should she be punished and also potentially hurt the kid due to them not being ready?
We could drop the issue almost completely if we actually had real sex education, but its the pro-lifers that keep that from happening.
NOBODY wants to see abortions happen.
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Male 41,539
*opens can of worms*
@otto: IF homosexuality were proven to be genetic? It would be a "disease" since it would preclude DNA replication.

NOTE!!!! I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS! Flame me NOT!

Christians and Muslims (notice how NO ONE blames Muslims for THEIR attitude?) would still consider it a "sin" to be overcome I`d guess. Jews are much more accepting of homosexuality, it should be noted.

[quote]...um...it`s a child, right ?? A child is a person, last time I checked.....[/quote]
Sorry @lawndarts, sadly no. In Canada if you stab a 9 months pregnant lady and "kill" her fetus, you`re ONLY guilty of stabbing, NOT murder. It`s a fact.
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Male 438
5cats,

Exactly, maybe god wants gay people, so my question is will those christians who pretend to know god says "homosexuality is bad", admit they are wrong when a `gay gene` is shown to exist or is is proven that sexual orientation is not a choice.
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Female 20
YUP!
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Male 41,539
Consider this: Is there a "heterosexual gene"? Where is it?
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Male 41,539
[quote]but infinite ways genes/factors react that lead to an orientation.[/quote]
Well, not "inifinte" @leesah! lolz! See that`s a... oh nevermind! There`s LOTS of factors in "who`s a homosexual" that is 100% correct!

[quote]Look at the big brain on leesah![/quote]
OOO! Here comes @madest with the insult parade! What`s the matter @madest? Can`t `girls` be smart too? Sexist pig!
[quote]they`ll discover a retard gene linked to republicanism[/quote]
Aaaand: the "retard" insult! Oh my, nothing new under the sun is there...
[/quote]I`ll personally fund those abortions.[/quote]
Translation: "I want to murder those who disagree with me" Correct @madest?

You are vile @madest, truely the scum of the Earth. That you believe yourself to be "intelectually superior" is even worse.
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Male 41,539
[quote]However there are many Christians who do "pretend to know".[/quote]
Double truth @otto! I am a Deist, and there`s LOTS of "Christians" who do pretend to know what God thinks, wants, plans or intends.
I`d agree, anyone who claims to "know what God wants" is: trying to get your money, an idiot, both.
So the print-shop explosion is just... stupid! On so many levels! WE cannot possibly figure God out, so we should (IF we`re Christians, Jews, Muslims & etc) TRY to do our best without judging others in the process.
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Male 41,539
@imnakd: Did I say rape? Did I say statuatory rape? NOT!

IF a woman is raped then 95% of "pro-lifers" believe she should be allowed to choose abortion. I get that from pro-abortionist literature btw. idk if it`s even remotely accurate BUT I`d bet most `lifers` will and do make exception for rape.

You do get to choose! You choose to have sex? You get preggers? Well you made your choice eh?
Someone rapes you? Well you truely had NO choice therefor you can choose to carry the baby or not.
NOTE: less than 0.01% of all `rapes` end in pregnancy. No I cannot quote a source, but think about it!
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Male 438
"We cannot pretend to know why there `humans` exist."

5cats,

If I rememeber correctly you are a `deist` and therefore this statement you make is correct in that context. However there are many Christians who do "pretend to know".
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Male 598
5cats, any woman can choose to abort for any reason.
Especially if the parents dont like each other and will resent their child.
Also, 5cats, are you really willing to tell a woman that was raped that she has to carry a baby for 9 months and then have it? what if she is 12 years old?
Honestly think about if you had to do that and you were not allowed to make the choice yourself.
What is more traumatic and unreasonable?

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Male 41,539
[quote]you couldn`t simply choose to be gay any more than you could choose to increase your height by eight inches [/quote]

@BoredFrank that is the STUPIDEST thing I`ve read here, aside from @madest of course.

[quote]is suggesting people choose to forsake something they are attracted to...[/quote]
Nooo @PinkRhoid. You LEARN your sexual attraction, over time, not all at once @PsychGeek! You don`t start out "hetero" OR "homo" OK?

[quote]it doesn`t matter what so ever if you are born gay or not.[/quote]
CORRECT! @carnageehw! (welcome to IAB eh?) But the supporters of "homosexualism"? THEY think it is! So they push this fake `science` to try to... idk! It`s just stupid and counter productive to their cause!

[quote]I`m just anti-bad-logic.[/quote]

Thank you @DrProfessor!
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Male 41,539
@otto: Strawman. There`s all manner of EVIL in the world, pedophiles, torturers, sociopaths and WORSE!
We cannot pretend to know why there `humans` exist. Anyone who claims "God made them" is right... and wrong too! Destiny vs freewill?

[quote] So the question posed is nonsense to anyone who leans left of center.[/quote]
LOOKIE! @madest said something stupid!

>Gender selection abortions @madest? OK or not?
>The baby is disabled, OK to abort or not?
>The baby is blind, OK to abort or not?
>The mother wants revenge on the baby-daddy, OK to abort or not?

ALL those questions are EASY for us "righties" to answer, how about YOU @madest? How about the rest of IAB`s lefties?

@Patchy: look up "Skinner Box" on Wiki for a start.
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Male 438
"The conclusion being, will the government force women to have children that have tested positive for a `gay gene`?"

CJ: I think that is a valid question, but it is somewhat moot in that the gov`t has never forced a women to have a child based on minority status.

Here is another one.

Will Christians and churches finally admit that god made gay people and therefore admit that their holy book is wrong and was not divinely inspired?
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Male 25,416
wow
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Male 5,811
[quote]#2: Heterosexuality has been proven to be "learned" [/quote]
Source.
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Male 7,378
The people who aren`t homophobic are probably pro-choice. So the question posed is nonsense to anyone who leans left of center.
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Male 41,539
[quote]Are gay people born gay, or are they born with no preference, just the propensity to BECOME gay?[/quote]

@auburnjunky: this is exactly correct! However MOST folks are too dumb to figure out the difference.

Listen up everyone: #1: There is NO "gay DNA" yet discouvered!
#2: Heterosexuality has been proven to be "learned"

@eugenius: "check and mate"? More like dumb and dumberer! It`s NO dilemma for "right wing" people: gay humans are equal to other humans, abortion = murder MOST of the time. Easy peasy!

I have to go, finish comments later...
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Male 41,539
What crap.
How can it "be gay" when inside the mother? Just plain stupid. And so predictable from the left to boot.
Going to read predictable comments now.

Prediction: @madest will say something stupid...
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Male 5,811
Although I suppose if it was a polymorphic gene, there could be other factors regulating the expression of that gene, so like I had said before, your explanation is plausible.
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Male 31
@Crakrjak
Dealing with liberal ideal if the government force them to test for a "gay gene" and it turned out positive then a liberal government would allow the abortion because the fetus is not considered to have any rights until it is living on its own, and until then it is part of the mother, therefore she decides whether to have an abortion or not. I think that answers you question.
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Male 1,810
"I Do Not Want This Child..is acceptable justification for an abortion"

...um...it`s a child, right ?? A child is a person, last time I checked.....
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Male 5,811
[quote]No, more that there are multiple genes playing off each other as well as non-genetic factors that regulate orientation in general, not just homosexuality. There is definitely no single "homosexual gene" or a certain combo of genes that definitely express homosexuality, but infinite ways genes/factors react that lead to an orientation.[/quote]
As I had said previously, you`re describing a multifactorial genetic condition. These are often triggered later in life, so I don`t necessarily agree with it. I have first-hand experience with multifactorial genetic conditions, and I would say that instead of multiple genes contributing to homosexuality [quote]in utero[/quote], it is likely a polymorphic gene inherited from the mother.
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Male 216
Well played...
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Male 594
I agree with leesah cause she is sexah
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Male 1,239
[quote]@CJ, That would be fine. If they discover that gene in all likelihood they`ll discover a retard gene linked to republicanism and I`ll personally fund those abortions.[/quote]

Once again you trash intolerance while simultaneously lumping all republicans into one intolerable group. You are the unknowing example of your own hatred. Trashing all republicans because of a group of nutters is no different than trashing all blacks because some steal.

OldOllie and CJ, of course if such a gene were identifiable it would be up for even more heated debate. I`m sure it would happen anyways but the only people who see being gay as a defect or as bad are against abortion anyways which really brings us back to the whole purpose of the post in the first place. One way or the other people have no need to discriminate except for religious and/or selfish reasons.
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Male 17,511
madest: Hateful much ?

After you unrepentantly deleted one of the posts that I submitted, was caught in the act, and the submission reposted, you`ve been churlish and petulant in the extreme, toward me.

I simply posed a question. A question they may, in the future, have a societal impact. The conclusion being, will the government force women to have children that have tested positive for a `gay gene`? Which liberal ideal is stronger in the eyes of the law, Abortion on demand or gay rights?

Since it`s obvious that you can`t discuss the matter in a mature way, perhaps you shouldn`t participate in it at all.
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Male 1,249
haha PinkRhoid I know I am a huge AFX fan just made me think of that song
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Male 1,239
[quote]@CJ, That would be fine. If they discover that gene in all likelihood they`ll discover a retard gene linked to republicanism and I`ll personally fund those abortions.[/quote]

Once again you trash intolerance while simultaneously lumping all republicans into one intolerable group. You are the unknowing example of your own hatred. Trashing all republicans because of a group of nutters is no different than trashing all blacks because some steal.

OldOllie and CJ, of course if such a gene were identifiable it would be up for even more heated debate. I`m sure it would happen anyways but the only people who see being gay as a defect or as bad are against abortion anyways which really brings us back to the whole purpose of the post in the first place. One way or the other people have no need to discriminate except for religious and/or selfish reasons.
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Female 1,566
"Should that be acceptable justification for abortion?"

I Do Not Want This Child is acceptable justification for an abortion, WHY you don`t want the child is nobody`s business.
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Male 15,832
Here`s a better question.

What if we are able to identify the "gay" gene, i.e., prenatal testing can determine if a child is going to grow up to be gay?

Should that be acceptable justification for abortion?
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Male 7,378
Look at the big brain on leesah!

@CJ, That would be fine. If they discover that gene in all likelihood they`ll discover a retard gene linked to republicanism and I`ll personally fund those abortions.
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Male 598
diylobotomy, You`re wrong! i used a rolled up hustler as a sex toy for my pregnant wife one time.
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Female 1,566
"a `homosexual gene(s)` could be regulated in this fashion."

No, more that there are multiple genes playing off each other as well as non-genetic factors that regulate orientation in general, not just homosexuality. There is definitely no single "homosexual gene" or a certain combo of genes that definitely express homosexuality, but infinite ways genes/factors react that lead to an orientation.
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Male 17,511
If the fetus you abort would be gay, isn`t that discrimination ?

Women get tests now to see if their child will have birth defects and if so they do likely abort them.

What if they started testing for the so called `gay gene`, if there even is one, and women decided to abort them ?
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Female 1,566
"It`s still hard to believe gay people are simply choosing against their own nature and desires."

Everything I`ve been arguing here leads to "definitely not a choice". So IDK where you`re going with this, it sounds like you`re on the same page as me, it`s a naturally influenced attraction that you`re neither born with nor consciously choose to have.
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Male 5,811
@psychgeek: There is some credence to @leesah`s claim. She`s talking about gene promoters, which can be upregulated or downregulated by teratogenic factors. Following this path of reasoning, she (I think) is asserting that a `homosexual gene(s)` could be regulated in this fashion.

It`s a plausible explanation, however if there are multiple genes interacting, they usually have a late onset and need to be activated by some teratogenic trigger, so I`m not convinced that a `homosexual gene` would have this association to multifactorial genetic conditions.
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Female 1,566
"Please, do tell me how your environmental factors explains these biological differences."

I`ll reiterate. See: epigenetics. Check out some of the twin studies. The genetic makeup of monozygotic twins at three years old is found to be identical. At forty years old, the twins genetic makeup has changed drastically as they make decisions independent of each other and live their lives. Thus, the environmental/etc factors are influencing the biological differences! It`s an interesting field to study, perhaps you should do some research for personal interest and gain the same infinite wisdom you believe I possess. :]
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Male 1,832
What a stupid question. Everyone knows that people only become gay from looking at gay porn. Fetuses can`t look at porn.
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Male 1,239
The only real arguments against it are religious or that it`s unnatural because it doesn`t lead to procreation. Religion, as any non-bigoted person can agree shouldn`t have bearing on those of different beliefs. As for unnatural, driving isn`t natural, or eating for pleasure, or blowjobs but people do those things and no one except oppressive religious people try to ban them.
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Female 1,798
@ leesah:

then please, in your infinite wisdom, explain to me how it is that, when faced with a crowd of people, a lesbian will pick out more faces of women than of men? and why is it that fMRI studies show that the brain chemistry of a gay man, when aroused, works the exact same way as a heterosexual woman when she`s aroused?

Please, do tell me how your environmental factors explains these biological differences. kthanks!
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Male 1,239
Perhaps whether they are born with it in the literal sense is inappropriate.
The simple fact that they prefer the same sex at all lends to the idea of less choice and more natural attraction. Your point could be used to argue whether it is natural or influenced to prefer blondes or brunettes but in the end the person isn`t simply picking one, he is naturally attracted to one over the other. A bad analogy as plenty have no preference but fill it in with any features typically sought over another and I hope the point is clear. It`s still hard to believe gay people are simply choosing against their own nature and desires.
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Female 1,566
"Especially if it were determined during the parents life through genetics that would beyond a shadow of a doubt be "born with it"."

It`s not like the parents are passing down genes saying THIS HAPPENED TO ME SO NOW YOU`RE DEF GONNA BE GAY. Factors in their life will cause certain genes/etc to express more or less "potently" in the offspring. So they may be born more inclined to find homosexuality appealing, but there are infinite more factors that will continue to impress upon the child until an age is reached where they decidedly "know" what orientation they are.
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Male 40,476
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Male 1,239
Also, that`s "now" not "know" pardon my grammar fail and rapid short posts.
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Male 1,239
I`m not sure how milkweed and Aphex Twin lead someone to thoughts of mass murder, necrophilia, mutilation, and HuMoo but I suggest seeking professional help. Aphex twin is weird but not like that.
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Male 1,239
Know that I think about it, maybe it`s Maybellene.
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Male 1,239
[quote] is most probably decided by environmental and psychological factors in early childhood (and perhaps during the parent`s life)[/quote]

Interesting point but the fact is that is still an indication of factors outside control and therefore not a choice. Especially if it were determined during the parents life through genetics that would beyond a shadow of a doubt be "born with it".
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Male 1,249
I see PinkRhoid`s avatar and post about milkweed and all I can think about is The Milk Mans Wife`s Tits
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Male 1,510
lol, comparing murder to gay rights. How cute.
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Male 3,894
This argument doesn`t really hold any weight. While the religious right denies certain rights to gay people (which is something that bothers me deeply), their pro-life stance only concerns the right to life, and the point at which a bundle of cells becomes legally `alive`.

They would respond that a gay person has a right to life just like any other person, to which their right to marriage is irrelevant.

That being said, I`m pro-choice and pro-gay-marriage.

I`m just anti-bad-logic.
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Male 1,239
Any religious stance on the matter belongs within the involved institutions. Their opinions should have no sway on public matters and matters of the state. The fact that marriage "is a religious ceremony" (while it is contested that marriage existed long before Christianity) lost its sway as soon as we accepted the practice as a legal matter most prominently for tax purposes. This is completely aside from the fact that like all other religious people there are gay people who toss out the inconvenient parts of religions they don`t like (just like shellfish, cloths of two fabrics, the entire old testament really) and feel that getting a religious marriage is just fine with God and they are just as entitled to that belief as anyone else to theirs. When are people going to grow up and let people live their lives as they want? I see a bigger need to fight fast food than to fight people with different opinions.
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Female 1,566
"they`re born gay, homosexuality is not a choice"

It`s hilarious how you can conclude that being gay is something you are absolutely born with simply because it is not a choice. This is not a two choice question. Being gay is not a choice nor are you born that way. Sexual orientation (homo and hetero and etc) is most probably decided by environmental and psychological factors in early childhood (and perhaps during the parent`s life). See: epigenetics.
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Male 3,445
"queer as a football bat"

Interesting expression.
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Male 438
Carnageehw:

The arguement goes to the religious position on the matter.

If god made people gay he is responsible for their situation and since he has laws against it and will damn them to an eternity of torture that makes god an immoral prick.

If gay people choose to be gay than it is their own fault they will be tortured forever.
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Male 771
@clockwork208 what the hell of importance happens in portland?
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Male 835
Gay isn`t milkweed, he`s right. Topic closed.
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Male 1,239
Not saying gay is milkweed btw, just that no one would willingly stop one thing they want for another they don`t really care for.
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Male 1,239
To accept the theory of choice one is suggesting people choose to forsake something they are attracted to for something they aren`t? Throw on the fact that they face ostracism, criticism, hatred, and a lack of equal rights. That`s not very good motivation on an already illogical choice. Seems pretty obvious to me.
There are teens that say they are gay/bi for attention but they don`t act beyond experimenting and grow out of it because, well, it wasn`t really what they wanted.

I don`t know many people who swear off cake for milkweed for the fun of it, do you?
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Male 2
The "born gay" vs "not born gay" argument is the most pointless of all time. It makes the debate stupid since it doesn`t matter what so ever if you are born gay or not. Be with who you want, no one else should care.
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Female 1,798
@ auburnjunky:

they`re born gay, homosexuality is not a choice (and pretty much the entire scientific community agrees with this).

To illustrate my point--did you ever wake up one morning and decide "you know what? i think i`ll like tits and pus*y today." No, you didn`t. You always liked them, and you consciously realized it somewhere between the ages of 3-6. Homosexuals are no different, it just takes some of them longer to consciously realize it.
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Male 835
LOOK AT THIS. If you are a man and do not want this, then you are queer as a football bat. I cannot believe that you CHOSE to not want this. I just don`t buy it. Yes, you were born as gay as your uncles feathered hatband. So move up here to Portland where nobody gives a sweet f*ck that you`re gay because we have much, much more important things to worry about.

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Male 878
Hey Bill, how you doing? :)
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Male 694
being gay is NOT a choice. for the most part you are not BORN gay. If anything, you TURN gay over time, maybe from genetics or maybe from your environment, maybe both.

also, no. death to fags ;)
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Male 2,669
auburnjunky, you couldn`t simply choose to be gay any more than you could choose to increase your height by eight inches or choose to be female. Religious beliefs that state otherwise are just ludicrous.
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Male 1,239
I`ve also never discussed that with anyone, thanks internet anonymity.
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Male 1,239
As we progressed through middle school and then high school my friend Luke came out that he was gay. I never even gave it thought until many years later but when I remembered what we did that day as kids it struck me that without any real sexual knowledge or preference our bodies seemed to have their own ideas. I`m no psychologist and I don`t know if there were other mitigating factors in his private life but this has always made the choice/born argument simple for me.
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Male 1,239
I don`t really get what the big deal is. When I was little we kids started getting curious. Some played doctor, some tried kissing, and often it was two girls or two boys. I know a friend and I whipped our dicks out and comparing and tripping out because they were different as I am cut and he is not. Now we were both raised in normal, non-abusive, middle class homes with loving families and had no idea what we were doing one way or another except that you aren`t supposed to show other people. I didn`t get excited over it, simply interested in the differences but he got hard. We thought it pretty funny in the end but neither thought much of it. Then a few days later our girl buddy was over and we ended up doing another comparison. Within minutes I was `excited` even though we had no concept of sexuality but my friend did not. Again none of us new what to make of it except giggling and looking.
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Male 40,476

AJ [quote] "I could CHOOSE to be gay right now. I`m not gonna, but I could." [/quote]
No, you could choose to "act" gay. Just as I could choose to act straight, but I`d still be gay no matter how many lift kits I put on my truck.
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Male 10,338
Conceded JT. That makes sense.

I was thinking though.

Are gay people born gay, or are they born with no preference, just the propensity to BECOME gay?

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Male 2,552
The religious right doesn`t believe that gays are born gay. Argument is invalid.
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Male 3,372
@auburnjunky: "Gay people are born gay". True, in most cases anyway, but there`s a slight problem with "No such thing as a gay fetus." and "Fetus = not born."
See, if they`re born gay, then are they also "born" male or female?
The "hardwiring" as far as sexuality goes starts before they are born.
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Male 878
Religion can always fall back on "faith" saying that God doesn`t want to give us actual proof, because then we`d have no choice but to believe in God. So, it doesn`t matter what scientific argument you bring out, religious people just put their fingers in their ears and sing "La-la-la I know I am right, because my faith tells me so." Actually, I have no problem with religious people. What I can`t stand is the way they force their views on everyone else and want to limit freedom. Christian muslim, whatever.
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Male 10,338
Really Frank?

I could CHOOSE to be gay right now.

I`m not gonna, but I could.

Yes, some are born gay though.
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Male 2,669
Of course gay people are born gay. If that`s not true, then all people, gay and straight, choose their orientation. Which is bullpoo. But of course religious numbnuts can`t see that (because they`re STUPID), and so they carry on being huge effing idiots.
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Male 10,338
First of all, it isn`t a game.

Secondly, yes SOME are born gay, but there are some gay people who chose it.

A vast majority are born gay though.
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Female 87
Their answer being that being gay is a choice, and that the fetus isn`t gay until it chooses to be so later on. It`s a load of bullpoo, but that`s their reasoning. We`ve had checkmate on the game for awhile now (it`s called science), but we`re playing a game where the other team can`t see the pieces that we`ve got lined up to take them out and refuses to acknowledge it on that basis.
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Male 10,338
Fetus = not born.

Gay people are born gay.

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Male 10,338
Sorry. No such thing as a gay fetus.
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Male 2
This post is a good example as to why there is so much stupidity going on between the two sides. They don`t understand each other.

A key to good debate is understanding why the other person thinks the way they do. Right wing Christians think abortion is MURDER. They are against abortion, just like a left wing person is against shooting someone.

They also feel that being gay is wrong. That it`s a sin just like stealing or idolizing another god is a sin.

This post, to right wing Christians, is just like saying "You didn`t want to abort this fetus, so you should be okay with him stealing".

WE know it`s not. But to ignore the fact they don`t think the way you do is pointless.
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Male 239
This will simply spark the Nature Vs. Nurture Debate. The fetus isn`t gay it`s the way the child brought up (nurture) Vs. Gay is in the genes (nature).
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Male 3,745
this saying is old and my answer to that is this.

what do you think Stem Cell "Research" is for?
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Male 1,620
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