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Date: 04/18/12 10:49 AM

230 Responses to Recently Seen On A Church Bulletin Board [Pic]

  1. Profile photo of eugenius
    eugenius Male 30-39
    1620 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 10:51 am
    Link: Recently Seen On A Church Bulletin Board - What do you think about `Not wishing to be responsible for their actions,` I-A-B? Good point or grasping for straws?
  2. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 10:55 am
    Troll.
  3. Profile photo of tvremote
    tvremote Male 18-29
    447 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 10:56 am
    LOL classic IAB baiting material. Its hilarious how every time I come back to this site after a few weeks hiatus there are posts like this. What a terrible website.
  4. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36662 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 10:56 am

    I don`t have a facepalm picture BIG enough for this.

    Darwin did not invent atheism.
    Athiests are 100% responsible. They can`t blame anything on gods or demons, it`s all their own behavior.
  5. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 10:57 am
    Good point actually, but the second half of the `note` is so stupid it completely negates any validity, eh?
  6. Profile photo of whapitoot
    whapitoot Male 18-29
    81 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 10:58 am
    Darwin wasn`t an athiest.
  7. Profile photo of dudeman1st
    dudeman1st Male 30-39
    1354 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 10:59 am
    Atheism is a lack of belief. /thread
  8. Profile photo of lostinkorea
    lostinkorea Female 30-39
    3727 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:00 am
    "who do not wish to be responsible for their own actions"...FFS! 30 years eh?? Charles created atheism????...

    So much to say but not going to go there. Let`s just see CrkJak defend this idiotic post.
  9. Profile photo of skytz1337
    skytz1337 Male 18-29
    687 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:02 am
    i don`t know where to start to describe how stupid is this
  10. Profile photo of LuckyDave
    LuckyDave Male 18-29
    675 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:02 am
    Why the hell was this even posted? This is an attempt at trolling and nothing more.
  11. Profile photo of Burton_Ian
    Burton_Ian Male 18-29
    815 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:07 am
    None of that was necessarily true, and much of it was absolutely not true.
  12. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:08 am
    "Good point actually, but the second half of the `note` is so stupid it completely negates any validity, eh?"

    The first sentence is pretty accurate.

    The rest, not so much.
  13. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:10 am
  14. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:11 am
    Atheism is a lack of belief. /thread

    No, actually @dudeman1st, agnosticism is a `lack of belief`. Atheists are CERTAIN there is NO God. By definition, ok?
    If you are a `atheist` who isn`t sure God exists or not, you`re in fact NOT an atheist.

    Darwin wasn`t an athiest.
    @whapitoot is correct, he was devoutely religious. He was genuinely amazed that his `evolutionary theory` was seen as `anti-religion`.

    This is an attempt at trolling and nothing more.
    @LuckyDave is correct! Our twice a week IAB trolling for anti-Christianity! yay!
  15. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    596 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:15 am
    >>>Athiests are 100% responsible.<<<

    Depends on how you define the word "responsible."
  16. Profile photo of lostinkorea
    lostinkorea Female 30-39
    3727 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:17 am
    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/lucretius/

    Also:

    He asserted that although gods do exist, they have no influence on the lives of humans and the universe was not designed by a deity but was the result of random natural events.
    Lucretius believed that the source of human unhappiness was in our fear of the gods and of death.
  17. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:17 am
    "No, actually @dudeman1st, agnosticism is a `lack of belief`. Atheists are CERTAIN there is NO God. By definition, ok? If you are a `atheist` who isn`t sure God exists or not, you`re in fact NOT an atheist."

    That is not true.

    Agnosticism is a lack of CERTAINTY.

    Gnosticism is having CERTAINTY.

    Atheism is a lack of BELIEF.

    Theism is having a BELIEF in an active deity.

    Deism is having a BELIEF in a passive deity.

    There are gnostic theists, agnostic theists, gnostic deists, agnostic deists, agnostic atheists, and gnostic atheists.

  18. Profile photo of ledzeppeloyd
    ledzeppeloyd Male 18-29
    2385 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:21 am
    i feel like there should be a troll face underneath it
  19. Profile photo of TKD_Master
    TKD_Master Male 18-29
    4794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:23 am
    Cajun said it best.
  20. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:29 am
    @skine: the dictionary disagrees:

    Gnosticism: the thought and practice especially of various cults of late pre-Christian and early Christian centuries distinguished by the conviction that matter is evil and that emancipation comes through gnosis.

    Gnosis: : esoteric knowledge of spiritual truth held by the ancient Gnostics to be essential to salvation.

    Therefor: The Gnostic religions promote salvation through knowledge, as opposed to religions that promote salvation through faith.

    K?
  21. Profile photo of BrimstoneOne
    BrimstoneOne Male 30-39
    2229 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:36 am
    "Atheism" is not a religion. Religion requires it followers to subvert, or suspend logic and reason (or a least the major "western" religions do).

    God gave Man logic and reason; to fore go their use, is to Fore go god`s designs. Fore God created Man, and Man created God in his image.
  22. Profile photo of jav805
    jav805 Male 18-29
    104 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:41 am
    I`m certain that christians blame a lot of their wrongdoings on god..."God made me kill my family for they sinned."
  23. Profile photo of Edgarska19
    Edgarska19 Male 18-29
    1045 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:43 am
    The only truth is in the first line.
    I seriously can`t tell if they`re trolling or being serious.
  24. Profile photo of LordJim
    LordJim Male 60-69
    6944 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:48 am
    5Cats,

    You could hardly be more wrong. Darwin started out religious but lost his faith during his studies, losing it completely following the death of his daughter. He would walk his wife to church but would not enter himself. He declined to describe himself as an atheist, partly out of regard for his religious wife, but was certainly an agnostic atheist.
  25. Profile photo of onoffonoffon
    onoffonoffon Male 30-39
    2348 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:48 am
    Illogical arguments don`t work well against the logical unless they are so profoundly idiotic that the logical person is blindsided, aka the haymaker. Lead with the left and hook with the right. It hurts when it happens, you suddenly realize that all hope is lost.......
  26. Profile photo of shaustin
    shaustin Male 18-29
    143 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 12:00 pm
    lol catholic church: y try and argue with atheism when you can just plug your ears and bash it
  27. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3908 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 12:08 pm
    Atheism is NOT a religion. In order to have a religion you have to have a God or gods that you worship...
  28. Profile photo of notorious98
    notorious98 Male 30-39
    151 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 12:14 pm
    @jav805

    There are certain people who do that, but they can hardly be considered Christian. And very few of them actually blame God as opposed to the temptation of evil (Satan). If they admit that they sinned, they obviously aren`t blaming anyone besides themselves. Otherwise, they aren`t "blaming" or admitting any wrongdoing in the slightest. They`re just passing the buck, which is extremely unchristian-like.

    @BrimstoneOne

    Atheism is as much a religion as any other religion. First, there are churches dedicated to this belief structure that get away with not paying taxes. That, in and of itself, makes it a religion. Second, it`s based upon a belief structure of some kind. Most atheists like to quote science to back up their belief that there is no God. The only problem is that due to science`s inability to create matter inside of a vacuum, it makes it just as illogical to believe the universe could have been created that way as it is that a
  29. Profile photo of notorious98
    notorious98 Male 30-39
    151 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 12:16 pm
    @whodat6484

    Dictionaries would disagree with your definition of "religion".
  30. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 12:34 pm
    @5cats: gnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive, you can have an agnostic atheist who doesn`t believe in God but is not certain i.e. lacks the KNOWLEDGE of God`s existence. I happen to be one, since I don`t believe in God but since I can`t irrefutably prove there is no God, I am thus far agnostic.

    @notorious: I`d like a source for atheists getting tax breaks, because I think you`re full of sh|t. Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position.
  31. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 12:47 pm
    True @patchy, you`re Agnostic. But that does indeed EX-clude both Deism and Atheism in your beliefs! (they`re polar opposites btw)

    Deism: A certianty that God exists.
    Atheism: A certianty that God DOES NOT exist.

    A Theist (mono- or pan- or poly-) also believes in God(s) for sure!
  32. Profile photo of notorious98
    notorious98 Male 30-39
    151 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 12:50 pm
    @patchgrabber

    Firstchurchofatheism.com Pay attention to the news sometime, the initial lawsuit against the government for receiving taxes breaks was well over a decade ago.

    And, like I said, dictionaries would disagree with your definition of "religion". Ignorance of the meaning of the word just makes you look stupid.

    According to dictionary.com, the 2nd definition of religion is "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects." The 3rd definition is "the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs or practices." Once again, according to dictionary.com, Atheism is "the doctrine or belief that there is no God." That fits into the definition of religion which makes it a religion.
  33. Profile photo of bataleon27
    bataleon27 Male 18-29
    1178 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 12:56 pm
    so much fail...
  34. Profile photo of kairobert
    kairobert Male 18-29
    1623 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 1:01 pm
    I don`t see how you can be responsible if you believe you are being judged. You can (according to religion) be held responsible but never be responsible.

    The true test of character is what one would do if one knew no one would ever know.
  35. Profile photo of fancythat
    fancythat Male 30-39
    1950 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 1:04 pm
    Stating one`s lack of belief in God is a person describing their personal belief.

    Stating why someone else does not believe in the notion of a God is irresponsible if you don`t include the views of the person you`re attempting to describe.
  36. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 1:07 pm
    @5cats: Deism is belief in God, not certainty. You`re confusing them up, This table should help:



    @notorious: I can find other dictionary definitions such as: World English Dictionary - rejection of belief in God or gods.
    Merriam-Webster - a disbelief in the existence of deity

    That isn`t religion, so we can cherry-pick dictiionaries all we want, but atheism is NOT religion. I don`t believe in a God. I don`t have a doctrine or set of principles.

    These don`t lend credence to atheism being a religion
  37. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 1:13 pm
    @notorious: That website sounded like hokum to me. It`s just about "Ordaining atheists" so they can do things religious people do like marry people, which is ALREADY unnecessary. That whole website sounds like a cash scam.
  38. Profile photo of faaaaq
    faaaaq Male 18-29
    693 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 1:19 pm
    ..what? no...lol. the theists are the ones who dont want to be responsible for their actions...
  39. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 1:27 pm
    @5cats: That should have read "Theism" not "Deism", sorry.
  40. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 1:27 pm
    @patchy: That chart you present doesn`t mean much. To cross reference them in that way isn`t accurate, IMO.
    Remember, the opposite of "athist" is DEIST, not "theist" but most folks cannot tell the difference. You can though, iirc.
    But both Deists and Atheists are BY DEFINITION Gnostics.
    Dictionaries! They serve a purpose!

    FOUR Beliefs:
    Atheist: No God(s)
    Deist: Yes God(s)
    Theist: God(s) and we must worship them!
    Agnostics: May, may not be God(s)
  41. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 1:30 pm
    "That should have read "Theism" not "Deism", sorry."
    No worries, it`s still clear what you mean.

    Technically "Deism" is a form of Theism, or vice-versa? lolz! I don`t think there`s any "PolyDeists" out there though... and "PolyAtheist" is redundant.
  42. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 1:38 pm
    @5cats: Gnosticism is about knowledge or certainty, not belief. Belief does not in itself contain certainty. The difference between faith and belief is likelihood of truth. LIKELIHOOD, not certainty. So theism and atheism in their own right are not gnostic or agnostic.

    I`ll tell you why your definition is faulty: If you ask your version of an agnostic person whether they believe in God(s) or not, they would have to say either "no" or "I don`t know", which is basically a "no", because it`s not a "yes". So in that case, all people you deem agnostic are actually atheist.
  43. Profile photo of 8BitHero
    8BitHero Male 18-29
    5414 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 1:38 pm
    Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.
  44. Profile photo of talon0325
    talon0325 Male 40-49
    382 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 1:42 pm
    So ,,, Then I am not totally responsible for my actions, It is God that made me do it. Lots of lunatics out there in jail for that belief. I would rather belive that I am the one responsible for my actions , and therefore bear the consequences. Maybe God can go to work for me so I can pay my bills. How about the loonies in the east? Their God want`s them to kill all non believers. Who then is responsible for their actions?
  45. Profile photo of xiquiripat
    xiquiripat Male 18-29
    2422 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 1:43 pm
    Why should the rest of us trust people who`s ideas about morality are dependent on the assumption of judgment and not basic human decency?
  46. Profile photo of CaptKangaroo
    CaptKangaroo Male 50-59
    2343 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 1:43 pm
    I think the author of that sign got it bass ackwards...
  47. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 1:43 pm
    @5cats: And "deism" IS a form of theism, one that rejects the need for organized religion. Rather, they think that observation of our world will prove that a God or creator exists. So in terms of whether a God or Gods exist or not, the correct term would be "theist" and "atheist".
  48. Profile photo of kangoala
    kangoala Male 18-29
    702 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 1:52 pm
    I would have made the argument that BELIEVING in god/s is an excuse for not taking responsibility. "god made me this way. I can`t help that my purpose is mean and vindictive..."
    Check and Mate.
  49. Profile photo of SnoopyBG
    SnoopyBG Male 18-29
    653 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 1:57 pm
    So, a country of religious people needs no laws and courts?
  50. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 2:00 pm
    It can be confusing, I readily agree @patchy! Especially with words that look & sound so much alike, yet have vastly different meanings!

    But I think I`ll stick with the Dictionary, thanks.
    Theological Dictionary NOT unbiased, eh?
    Dictionary Dot Com Seems cut & dried to me!

    agnosticism [(ag- nos -tuh-siz-uhm)">

    A denial of knowledge about whether there is or is not a God. An agnostic insists that it is impossible to prove that there is no God and impossible to prove that there is one.
  51. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 2:03 pm
    @kangoala: But religious folks think they have `freewill` so they`re still responsible, eh?
    *moves King 3 squares at once*
    It`s not cheating, God said I can do it!
  52. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 2:39 pm
    To be an athiest is to deny religion and god. FAIL!!
  53. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2345 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 2:46 pm
    Darwin certainly did not start athesim...what a load of BS.

    there have been on-believers and believers in other deities since well before Christianity.

    also, it is not and cannot be a religion. for it to be they would have to have a belief in a God of some sort or higher power.

    while they may be organized and attend meetings together that just makes them a club with some really cranky members in it.

  54. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3908 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 3:00 pm
    @notorious98 - Sorry buddy, you`re just picking & choosing parts of the definition that fit your argument and discarding the rest. That proves your ignorance to me, you only hear what you want to hear and ignore the rest...
  55. Profile photo of Neoptolemos
    Neoptolemos Male 30-39
    625 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 3:12 pm
    Sorry OP, I won`t bite.

    I have had it with these motherf#*king partisan/religious posts on this motherf*#king weblog!
  56. Profile photo of KAKABAKA
    KAKABAKA Male 30-39
    402 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 3:12 pm
    ??????
  57. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 3:16 pm
    "Once again, according to dictionary.com, Atheism is "the doctrine or belief that there is no God." That fits into the definition of religion which makes it a religion."

    Atheism is a single lack of belief. It`s not a "fundamental set of beliefs" like your definition of religion says. Would you say that all the people who don`t believe global warming is happening are a religion? The religion of global warming deniers? It`s a singular belief that people believe, thus it`s a religion? Sorry but it doesn`t work that way. Religions have a set of beliefs, not a singular belief. Even if someone believes in a god, but does not believe in any aspect of that god other than it exists, they aren`t in a religion.
  58. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 3:24 pm
    Another flamebaiting article...
  59. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 3:30 pm
    @LillianDulci
    No, atheism is the belief that there is no divine being or beings. You`re confusing atheism with agnosticism. From dictionary.com, religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe. Atheists generally believe that there is no God, the universe has no true purpose, and was caused by natural elements such as the big bang.(I`m not including evolution since it is accepted by many religious folk of varying beliefs these days, not to mention that it has scientific backing, and, thus, shouldn`t be a belief specific to any religion) These are a set of beliefs concerning the origin of the universe. Therefore, atheism IS a religion. Agnosticism is the only real way to not have a religion. It`s possible to not have a DEFINED religion, but most people have some sort of religion.
  60. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 3:32 pm
    @Lillian
    Just because Atheism isn`t an organized religion(which it will be before all is said and done), doesn`t mean it`s not a religion in general. I`m a deist, and I don`t attend any church or submit to any specific religious doctrine, but I still have a set of beliefs that cause me to be labeled as a `deist`. Atheism isn`t that different.
  61. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 3:33 pm
    There is absolutely nothing true in that sign. Not a single word. The definition of atheism is wrong, the motivation for it is wrong, the origin of it is wrong and the classification of it is wrong.

    They`re just projecting themselves onto atheism. Either they`re genuinely incapable of thinking in any other way and genuinely think atheists are just like them or they`re lying for the purposes of propaganda.
  62. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 3:38 pm
    Just because Atheism isn`t an organized religion(which it will be before all is said and done), doesn`t mean it`s not a religion in general.

    It`s not lack of organisation that makes atheism not a religion. It`s the lack of religion that makes atheism not a religion. Atheism has no faith in anything and no belief in a higher power. Atheism is the absence of religion. To call it a religion is stupid. It`s like calling not playing football a sport. It`s so spectacularly self-contradicting that only a theist could believe it.

    I still have a set of beliefs that cause me to be labeled as a `deist`. Atheism isn`t that different.

    You have a set of religious beliefs and faith in a higher power.

    Atheism has neither.

    "not that different"? How much more different could it be?
  63. Profile photo of imnakdjumpme
    imnakdjumpme Male 18-29
    598 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 3:41 pm
    Athiesm is the absence of belief. That is all.
    You can be anything BUT religious and still carry the "athiest" title.
    And it is based on evidence and lack of evidence, not faith, like some would contend.
  64. Profile photo of imnakdjumpme
    imnakdjumpme Male 18-29
    598 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 3:53 pm
    Also, who is really trying to pass off responsibility for their actions, when it is the premise of christianity that you can be forgiven by your celestial daddy, for something you did to someone else. Wouldnt it be nice to not have to own up to people in this life? im jealous of people that can skirt around responsibility and still tell themselves its okay. Dont worry about the victim, at least they made peace with an irrelevant creation in their head!
  65. Profile photo of msieg007
    msieg007 Male 18-29
    2035 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 4:00 pm
    And now I`m going to type a super ridiculously huge post on here that you`re probably not going to read and will *definitely* not change your opinion in any shadow of a way. First and foremost, you`re wrong. You`re also an idiot. I look down on you and I pity you because what you believe clearly makes you less intelligent than I am. Some might say I`m pretentious, but the truth is that I`m drating awesome (and honestly, a bit delusional). Once again, the level of your intelligence is absurd. Ad hominem attack. Ad hominem attack. And another ad hominem attack for good measure. Still reading? You`re probably just looking for the smallest detail that you can take completely out of context for your rebuttal. And I`ll call you out on taking it out of context, even though that`s probably what I`ve been doing this whole time. Internet debates are like the Korean War. Nobody won and it was largely a waste of time and other resources. Nearing the total now so this sentence is going to end abrup
  66. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 4:00 pm
    "You`re confusing atheism with agnosticism. "

    This has been explained previously in this post, next.

    "Atheists generally believe that there is no God, the universe has no true purpose, and was caused by natural elements such as the big bang."

    The only thing mentioned here that`s an actual aspect of atheism is the lack of belief in a god. The other two things you mentioned may be common of atheists but it`s not a "rule of atheism" that every atheist has to believe they`re true. The only thing you know 100% for sure when you know an atheist is that they lack a belief in a god.

    "I still have a set of beliefs that cause me to be labeled as a `deist`. "
    You have a set of beliefs, atheists have a single "belief" that`s actually a lack of belief. There`s a difference.
  67. Profile photo of keith2
    keith2 Male 30-39
    2588 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 4:10 pm
    I have no damn idea why I have this Webster`s dictionary (1993) at my work desk, but here`s what it has to say about that thing called "religion." Re-li-gion - n - supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice. 1. a - state of a religious (a nun in her 20th year of ~) b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment of devotion to religious faith or observance. 2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 3 archaiac : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
  68. Profile photo of Spear
    Spear Male 18-29
    36 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 4:18 pm
    still waiting for CrakrJak`s fundie ass to show up...
  69. Profile photo of clickclack
    clickclack Male 18-29
    15 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 4:29 pm
    In my opinion, being an atheist doesn`t mean that you are less responsible for your actions, actually, quite the opposite. Atheists don`t have the luxury of a "god" to forgive us for our mistakes. Also, being an atheist implies not believing in an after life, so we have to do right in the only life we have. No do-overs. No forgiveness other than the forgiveness that we earn from our fellow human beings.
  70. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 4:34 pm
    Athiesm is the absence of belief. That is all.
    @imnaked: That`s not what the Dictionary says. What you describe is "agnosticism", I`ve given links already.

    The definition of atheism is wrong
    @Angilion: Again, not according to the Dictionary. It is in fact correct.
  71. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 4:39 pm
    "This has been explained previously in this post,"
    @LillianDulci: Yes, by ME! lolz! YOU still don`t use the terms properly, clinging to your misconceptions over the actual English language.

    "2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs,"
    @keith2: See? It CAN be called a "religion", sort of, but people who believe "Church = Big Building" will have a lot of trouble understanding that.

    VV @clickclack: Actually I agree with that. Well said!
  72. Profile photo of bumbleBB
    bumbleBB Female 18-29
    1113 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 4:42 pm
    I`m an atheist working at Christian long term care facility. Do I lie to my residents when they ask me about god? No. Are they shocked when I say I don`t believe there is a god? Yes. Why? Because I`m a good person. I believe in having a responsibility to others and society. I don`t feel that I have judgement coming and I`m not afraid that I`ll end up in hell. My decision to be good comes from my personal moral beliefs. Beliefs that each of us (unless you`re a sociopath) possess. Is it better to be good under the fear that I will someday face horrible consequences if I fail to abide by "the rules", or is it better that I choose (through truly unadulterated, fearless, free will.) to be good because I feel a responsibility to not cause harm, and try to improve the lives of others, which improves my own.
  73. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 4:42 pm
    5Cats, not by you, by patchgrabber. He even posted a handy chart!
  74. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 4:57 pm
    The Darwin sentence made me lol.
  75. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 5:20 pm
    Dictionary > chart made by who knows whom.
  76. Profile photo of PirateNinja
    PirateNinja Female 13-17
    121 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 5:24 pm
    Agreed BumbleBB! I try to explain this to people all the time and sometimes they get it but others just can`t seem to grasp that concept. :3
  77. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 5:36 pm
    @clickclack I agree. However, there are also Atheists who use their belief in no divinity to justify doing evil things too, just like there are Christians who use their god`s `forgiving` attitude to justify evil. If you ask me, religion and beliefs aren`t something that define people. More often than not, people define religions and beliefs.
  78. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 5:39 pm
    Also, I wouldn`t be surprised if this picture were fake, judging by some other pictures of this nature posted on this site.
  79. Profile photo of Quik2TheStab
    Quik2TheStab Male 18-29
    661 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 5:40 pm
    Seems legit.
  80. Profile photo of TrustusJones
    TrustusJones Male 30-39
    61 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 5:41 pm
    The author is just a tad misguided...just a little. As long as the person is happy with their own beliefs they should be okay. I doubt they were trying to be harmful to anyone.
  81. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 5:49 pm
    "I`m an atheist working at Christian long term care facility. Do I lie to my residents when they ask me about god? No. Are they shocked when I say I don`t believe there is a god? Yes. Why? Because I`m a good person. I believe in having a responsibility to others and society. I don`t feel that I have judgement coming and I`m not afraid that I`ll end up in hell. My decision to be good comes from my personal moral beliefs. Beliefs that each of us (unless you`re a sociopath) possess. Is it better to be good under the fear that I will someday face horrible consequences if I fail to abide by "the rules", or is it better that I choose (through truly unadulterated, fearless, free will.) to be good because I feel a responsibility to not cause harm, and try to improve the lives of others, which improves my own."

    Perfectly expresses how I feel about being an atheist. Thank you.
  82. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 5:52 pm
    @LillianDulci Also, I would like to point out that your "set of beliefs" argument isn`t really valid. A single belief could still be considered a "set of beliefs". Your personal set of beliefs is just 1 belief. However, you still hold this belief, and, therefore, have a religion. It is possible to not have a set of beliefs, but, by subscribing to the belief(or disbelief, if that`s how you want to phrase it) that there is no divine creator, you have, in a general sense, attributed a religion to yourself. Why are you so militantly against accepting this notion? Is it perhaps because part of your pretentious attitude is based on setting yourself apart from others and that possibly being able to be labeled as having a religion somehow damages this sense of superiority?
  83. Profile photo of eovogt
    eovogt Male 18-29
    197 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 6:07 pm
    I Lol.
  84. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 6:25 pm
    Wow! You learn something every day.
  85. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 6:25 pm
    LoL is a terrible game. You shouldn`t lol anymore.
  86. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 6:34 pm
    "However, you still hold this belief, and, therefore, have a religion."
    This doesn`t work. Why?
    Disbelief in global warming = religion!
    Disbelief in unicorns = religion!
    Belief that there is life living on some planet besides Earth = religion!
    Disbelief in the big bang theory = religion!
    Belief in gravity = religion!

    See where I`m going with this? There`s more to religion than having a single belief. Even the definition of religion says it`s a set of beliefs. How is it possible for atheism to be a religion when atheists can have vastly differing belief systems without having any kind of conflict, just as long as they don`t believe in a god?
  87. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 6:38 pm
    "Is it perhaps because part of your pretentious attitude is based on setting yourself apart from others and that possibly being able to be labeled as having a religion somehow damages this sense of superiority?"
    Do you view having a religion so lowly that you have to say atheism is a religion to justify your own beliefs? Saying that atheism is a religion is saying that every single person has to have a religion which is a concept invented by humans and not something inherent to our species. I could invent something like "Shumvuflum" which defines people who believe in unicorns. I believe in pink unicorns, I`m a pinkunicornist, my neighbor believes in short unicorns, he`s a shorticornist. You`re an acornist because you don`t believe in unicorns, so you`re a shumvuflum now? Even though I just made up this word? Because you don`t believe in my made up crap, you`re now going to be labeled by a made up word for something you don`t believe in? o.o
  88. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 6:39 pm
    @LillianDulci
    You really need to real ALL of my posts. (If you did and are intentionally ignoring things, then shame on you!)
    The dictionary defines religion as:
    "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe"
    Global warming is unrelated to the creation of the universe. Therefore belief or disbelief in it is unrelated to religion.

    "How is it possible for atheism to be a religion when atheists can have vastly differing belief systems without having any kind of conflict, just as long as they don`t believe in a god?"
    By this logic, you shouldn`t consider Christianity a religion either.
  89. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 6:41 pm
    @LillianDulci
    Once again, you are cherry picking things I`ve said. I NEVER said everyone has to have a religion. Plenty don`t! Atheists BELIEVE that there is no divinity. That is why I can define atheists as having a religion. Also, unicorns have nothing to do with the existence or creation of the universe.
  90. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 6:55 pm
    "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe"

    If this is your chosen definition of religion, how does atheism fall into this category? Atheism says nothing about the cause of the universe, the nature of the universe, or the purpose of the universe whatsoever. Atheism is simply a disbelief in a god. Any other beliefs differ on the individual.

    "I NEVER said everyone has to have a religion."

    You implied it, by saying atheism is a religion. Agnostic atheists (read: the vast majority of atheists whether they feel the need to add the agnostic part or not) are still atheists. All infants are born atheists, so you`re saying all infants have a religion before they can even be taught religion.
  91. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 6:56 pm
    "Also, unicorns have nothing to do with the existence or creation of the universe."

    I didn`t say they did, I made up my own term and decided, because you don`t believe in unicorns, you are now defined by my made up term completely against your will whether you think it fits your disbelief in unicorns or not.
  92. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:02 pm
    @LillianDulci
    I got that definition from the dictionary. I did not make it up. It is very obvious how Atheism falls into that category: By disbelieving in a divinity, atheists believe that the cause of the universe is something purely natural and most disbelieve in a true purpose of the universe. A key word in that definition is `OR`, meaning that only one of those requirements really needs to be fulfilled. You`re right, agnostic atheists are still ATHEISTS, just as agnostic theists are still theists. They still believe that there is no deity.

    "All infants are born atheists, so you`re saying all infants have a religion before they can even be taught religion."
    Wrong. Infants are born with no beliefs either way. It is most likely impossible for them to comprehend the idea of the origin of the universe.
  93. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:03 pm
    "
    I didn`t say they did, I made up my own term and decided, because you don`t believe in unicorns, you are now defined by my made up term completely against your will whether you think it fits your disbelief in unicorns or not."

    That`s completely fine. That doesn`t make that term a religion though.
  94. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:16 pm
    "By disbelieving in a divinity, atheists believe that the cause of the universe is something purely natural and most disbelieve in a true purpose of the universe. A key word in that definition is `OR`, meaning that only one of those requirements really needs to be fulfilled. "

    Nope.

    atheists believe that the cause of the universe is something purely natural :
    You are asserting that this is something all atheists believe, when all you know about all atheists is that they don`t believe in a god. It`s perfectly possible for an atheist to believe a green space alien caused the universe to "happen", for example. There`s no set belief all atheists have in regards to the universe "happening".

    most disbelieve in a true purpose of the universe :
    Most != all. It`d have to be something all atheists believe for it to be an aspect of atheism. The only thing you can say 100% all atheists have is a disbelief in a god.
  95. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:20 pm
    "Infants are born with no beliefs either way. It is most likely impossible for them to comprehend the idea of the origin of the universe."

    Infants have no beliefs, thus they default to atheism. Atheism says nothing about the origin of the universe even though you keep claiming it does.

    "That`s completely fine. That doesn`t make that term a religion though."
    I never said it did. I said everyone who believes in unicorns falls into the category of shumvuflum. Your disbelief in unicorns makes you fall into the category of shumvuflum as well because it`s a "belief system" about unicorns. Surely you can see where this kind of logic is flawed. You never even heard of shumvuflum until I invented it like an hour ago, there`s no way you can fall into such a category about a belief system that you don`t even have @_@
  96. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:27 pm
    Also, I wouldn`t be surprised if this picture were fake
    It`s the interweb @eddy666, the default position is "fake" until proven otherwise...

    Atheism says nothing about the cause of the universe,
    WRONG! @LillianDulci: Atheists say that God DID NOT creat the univese. Therefor they DO have an belief in how it was (or was not) created!

    "I NEVER said everyone has to have a religion."
    But actually everyone DOES have a "belief about religion" don`t they? If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice!

    I notice how @Lillian is trying to distract from her vastly imperfect "definitions" without admitting she was misteaken... (that`s a joke there, from the other thread...)
  97. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:32 pm
    "I notice how @Lillian is trying to distract from her vastly imperfect "definitions" without admitting she was misteaken... (that`s a joke there, from the other thread...) " Ha, I get it, but I wouldn`t have if you hadn`t pointed it out.
  98. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:33 pm
    @5Cats: It`s rare that I agree with you (like, six-total-solar-eclipses-in-a-year rare), so when I do, I like to make the most of it.

    You are spot on regarding gnosticism. You rock, dude. (Elaine Pagels`s *The Gnostic Gospels* was one of my more important textbooks in my undergrad days.)
  99. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:35 pm
    "Infants have no beliefs, thus they default to atheism." how does this make sense? They could just as easily default to Scientology.

    From wikipedia: "atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities" - So atheists have a belief! They hold the belief that there are no deities. If you don`t know or don`t care whether there are deities or not then you are purely agnostic.(not any of those half-breeds you talk about)
  100. Profile photo of Gauddith
    Gauddith Female 18-29
    231 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:39 pm
    The fact that they attribute Atheism to Darwin, and call it a religion shows they have no idea what the hell it is. Darwin was not the first Atheist, that can be attributed to the cavemen who didn`t bother concocting gods to solve their problems. And calling Atheism a religion is the very same as calling a bicycle a motorized vehicle.

    Also eddy pro trolling, but "No beliefs either way" Is Atheism. If you don`t think there is a god, or isn`t; then you are, go figure, an Atheist.
  101. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:39 pm
    "Atheists say that God DID NOT creat the univese. "
    No, atheists say that there`s no god. That says nothing about the universe, because atheists can have vastly different beliefs on how the universe came to be. Atheism is a disbelief in a god and nothing more. You believing a god caused the universe does not mean atheists disbelieving in a god means they`re talking about universe. They`re not saying anything about the universe at all.

    "I notice how @Lillian is trying to distract from her vastly imperfect "definitions" without admitting she was misteaken... (that`s a joke there, from the other thread...) "
    I`m not distracting from anything, eddy`s definition of religion doesn`t even fit atheism. And it`s really funny to see religious people trying to tell atheists what they believe.
  102. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:40 pm
    And @Lillian: You are on a roll, here. Love reading your posts. You have one keen intellect there, missy. (Oh, and the unicorns bit made me chortle; you didn`t even break your stride.)
  103. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:44 pm
    "So atheists have a belief! They hold the belief that there are no deities. If you don`t know or don`t care whether there are deities or not then you are purely agnostic.(not any of those half-breeds you talk about)"

    Since wikipedia is valid, here`s a very clear definition from dictionary.com : "disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings. "
    Infants fall into this category. Anyone with a disbelief in a god falls into this category, really. Most atheists are agnostic atheists because we are human and admit we can be wrong about things. Most religious people are agnostic as well, whether they will openly admit it or not. Most atheists I know don`t say there`s absolutely no possibility that there`s any sort of god out there. Most just say it`s so unlikely that there`s no reason to believe it`s true until proven otherwise. I don`t think there`s anyone who`s simply "agnostic". People tend to lean to one side.
  104. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:47 pm
    "And @Lillian: You are on a roll, here. Love reading your posts. You have one keen intellect there, missy. (Oh, and the unicorns bit made me chortle; you didn`t even break your stride.)"

    Thank you my furry friend \o/ I like using unicorn examples and it may have a little bit to do with how my two favorite singers are basically unicorns.
  105. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:50 pm
    P.S. @Lillian: I`m an acornist ~munches on an acorn in midsentence~ but it has nothing to do with unicorns or my lack of belief in them. =^.^=
  106. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:52 pm
    "Infants have no beliefs, thus they default to atheism." how does this make sense? They could just as easily default to Scientology.
    It`s not about defaulting to anything. Have to agree with Lillian here. Atheism is the default position. Vanilla. Blank. Children aren`t born believing in Santa Claus, or the Tooth Fairy, or the Easter Bunny. They learn those beliefs through their parents and their society. If they weren`t taught about those things, they would be completely atheist as regards to any of those things.

    Just as, (entirely analogous), a child is not "born" a theist, whether it be a Christian, a Muslim, a Hindu, heck, a believer in Odin and Thor if he had been born in Scandanavia 1000 years ago. Those things are taught.

    A child is an atheist by default. It`s the starting condition. Simple as that.
  107. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:57 pm
    @LillianDulci Wikipedia is valid, as it cites its information and clearly states when information is not backed up by an external source. Also, by disbelieving in a supreme creator, you are believing that there is NO deity. Infants cannot comprehend the notion of a deity or even the creation of the universe, so I don`t really think it`s fair to attribute a religion to them(Although, arguing that infants being atheist is an interesting and valid argument), and has no bearing on the current argument, which is kind of dumb, I admit, but is fun because you don`t like the possibility of being able to be labeled as having a religion. :)
  108. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 7:58 pm
    "atheists can have vastly different beliefs on how the universe came to be"
    Once again, this is no different than modern Christianity.
  109. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:07 pm
    @LillianDulci I think you`re misunderstanding my arguments. I`m not arguing what atheism is or is not. I`m arguing that it is valid for a person to label atheism as a religion since Atheism has a specific belief pertaining to(not necessarily fully explaining) the creation and purpose of the universe. Pure agnosticism does not have any specific belief, and thus, is exempt-able from a religion, although, I admit, it is arguable that this too is a religion, especially if you broadly define religion as a simple attribute to an individual.
  110. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:13 pm
    "Also, by disbelieving in a supreme creator, you are believing that there is NO deity. Infants cannot comprehend the notion of a deity"
    This is a consequence of theism/deism, not atheism. Because theism/deism exists and says there is a deity, atheists "say" there`s no deity. But in reality, atheism is the disbelief in a god, thus infants fall into the category. Infants would still be atheists even if every person on the planet was an atheist and there was no reason to define people as atheists because there`s no one saying there`s any deity.

    "or even the creation of the universe"
    Once again, atheism has nothing to do with the universe.

    "so I don`t really think it`s fair to attribute a religion to them"

    I don`t think it`s fair to attribute a religion to them either. But atheism isn`t a religion, even by your own definition of religion, so I don`t see the problem. :P
  111. Profile photo of falloutchik
    falloutchik Female 18-29
    78 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:13 pm
    slanderous. would be the equivalent of posting the statement that Christians are those who wish to join part of cult-like structure in order to build a false sense of the colloquial "better than you attitude" and to be provided culturally credible excuse for violence, denying others rights, and foremost a smug attitude. In no way do I believe this - good portion of my family is Christian, but this is really nothing more than a mixture of bullying and name calling
  112. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:16 pm
    "Once again, this is no different than modern Christianity."
    That`s why there`s many different sects of Christianity, all of which are religions relating to each other but not exactly the same. There`s no different sects of atheism, because the ONLY thing ALL atheists have in common is the disbelief in a god.

    "I`m arguing that it is valid for a person to label atheism as a religion since Atheism has a specific belief pertaining to(not necessarily fully explaining) the creation and purpose of the universe."
    As I`ve said numerous times already, atheism says NOTHING about how the universe came to be. There`s no "belief" that`s true to every single atheist EXCEPT the disbelief in a god. There`s no belief in the "creation of the universe" that every atheist believes in. There`s no belief of the "purpose of the universe" that every atheist believes in. You are attributing many things to atheism when they have absolutely nothi
  113. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:18 pm
    nothing to do with atheism.*

    IAB and its "1000 character limit but really your post has to be under 950 characters or it`s cut off"...
  114. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:21 pm
    @LillianDulci
    Alright enough with the infant thing, I admitted your argument was valid in that respect, but I still don`t think this has any bearing on the current topic.

    "Once again, atheism has nothing to do with the universe."
    Yes, atheism is the disbelief in a deity, and, thus, pertains to the creation of the universe.

    Think of it like this:
    Religion is an attribute of sorts - it`s defined as a set of beliefs pertaining to blah blah blah(I`m tired of repeating this).
    Let`s go back to your example of disbelieving in gods, but believing that aliens created the universe(although in this case it is arguable that aliens are a deity of sorts since they could create the whole universe). These 2 things are your only beliefs concerning this matter - they are your own personal set of beliefs. However, since you still meet the definition of atheism by disbelieving in a god, you are still an atheist. Since there is currently no term to define the yo
  115. Profile photo of notorious98
    notorious98 Male 30-39
    151 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:23 pm
    @patchgrabber

    Whether or not you believe it is a cash scam doesn`t change the fact that it exists and doesn`t have to pay taxes. Just like other organized religions.

    @whodat6484

    Picking and choosing? Not quite. Blowing your ideas out of the water? Definitely. Linking an opinionated article written by an atheist with the same thought process as yourself doesn`t make your thought process fact. Linking indisputable evidence from a source that specializes in defining words based on common vernacular carries much more weight. Let`s put it this way, my evidence would be much more accepted by a wider audience than your own. Yours is purely for people who think as narrowly as you do.
  116. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:23 pm
    "because the ONLY thing ALL atheists have in common is the disbelief in a god. " And the only thing all Christians have in common is the belief in god and the belief in the general story of Jesus Christ
  117. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:24 pm
    your specific set of beliefs, it is easier to define what you believe as a subclass of atheism. So, when responding to what is your religion(or set of beliefs) you could either respond with your specific set or with just atheism, or with both. (Sorry accidentally deleted this)
  118. Profile photo of notorious98
    notorious98 Male 30-39
    151 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:27 pm
    @Patchgrabber

    Sorry, didn`t see your earlier post. So, let me get this straight. Believe in God = religion. Don`t believe in God =/ religion. If atheists don`t have a set of beliefs, but do have one belief (there is no God, which is a belief just as much as believing there is one) and Christians have one belief (there is a God), explain the difference.
  119. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:33 pm
    If you don`t think there is a god, or isn`t; then you are, go figure, an AGNOSTIC.
    Fixed it @Gauddith! Go find a Dictionary young fellow! Because Atheist = NO God period.

    atheists say that there`s no god.
    Finally @LillianDulci admits I`m correct! lolz! So if God created the universe, but Atheists believe there IS NO God, obviously that`s ENTIRELY unrelated...

    Atheism is the default position. Vanilla. Blank.
    Noooo @davymid: that`s Agnosticism: Atheists have a very firm and fixed belief in the NON-existance of God(s). Not knowing either way is Agnostic. @Squirrelz says so! (Thx @Squirrelz!)

    Distracting the discussion with the beliefs of BABIES? Cheap @LillianDulci, just... gaudy!
  120. Profile photo of RobSwindol
    RobSwindol Male 30-39
    2514 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:37 pm
    I`m atheist, and I certainly believe that I am responsible for my own actions. If I kill someone, I will go to jail just like a dumb ass christian will.
  121. Profile photo of Xerasia
    Xerasia Female 18-29
    1181 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:37 pm
    crap. i expect to be held responsible for my actions, but by real people, not some made-up fairy tale bullsh*t.
  122. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:42 pm
    @LillianDulci: A "set of beliefs about the nature of religion" can just as easily be called a "philosophy", don`t get your panties in a twist over it!
    You are certainly willing to ignore Dictionary Definitions elsewhere, why get all "perfectly proper language" over this?

    Ha, I get it, but I wouldn`t have if you hadn`t pointed it out.
    Ha! thx @eddy666, that`s why I had to point it out, it`s meaningless unless you`ve seen the `misteak` thread.

    You are spot on regarding gnosticism.
    Thanks @Squirrelz! It`s good to know I have the Dictionary AND the small rodent lobby on my side ;-)
  123. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:50 pm
    5Cats, we`re being caught in semantics here. Gnosticism means something very different depending on the terms we`re using it.

    Just as "Conservatism" could (depending on your definition), mean supporting sticking to the old ways, or American Conservatism as a political movement, or even for that matter conservation in the environmental sense.

    Same word, used in many different ways.

    As others have pointed out, "A/Theism" describes a belief. "A/Gnosticism" describes certain knowledge.

    Here it is again. Not to say that your definition is wrong, just pointing out that this is one way to portray it:



    Made that one myself.
  124. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:51 pm
    Now, most atheists I know (including myself) would declare themselves as "agnostic atheists". That is to say (and pay attention here); I don`t believe in a god. Any god. Any form of the supernatural. But, as a professional scientist, I cannot be sure that such an assertion is true. As such, I`m an agnostic atheist.

    Counterpoint however, most theists I know are Gnostic Theists. That is to say, their position is "I believe in God, and I know that He exists" (always their particular God, but that`s another debate).

    Thus the distinction between Gnosticism and Theism. Hey, it helps if you went to Hogwarts as I did (or any other private British School) and learned Latin and Greek for 3 years. F*cking ultimate waste of time, but you`d understand the root of common English words.

    F*ck Dictionary.com, whoever made that one.
  125. Profile photo of Fancysucksss
    Fancysucksss Male 18-29
    1048 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:52 pm
    Way to stick to the facts. The super retarded facts
  126. Profile photo of TheGuySmiley
    TheGuySmiley Male 18-29
    1243 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 8:59 pm
    we all know it`s a religion, it even has its first church
  127. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 9:04 pm
    It`s a lovely graphic there @davymid! @Patchy put up a similar one.

    What`s the difference between "Agnostic Atheist" and "Agnostic Theist" exactly?
    Nothing, that`s what. Leaning one way or the other doesn`t make a hoot of difference, they both believe God may OR MAY NOT exist. Same... thing...

    So there`s really only 3 types: Gnostic Atheist, Gnostic Theist AND Agnostic.

    God is like being pregnant. You ARE, you are NOT or you don`t know yet. No fouth state exists. "I think I`m not" and "I think I might be" are the same thing, correct?

    That`s what the Dictionaries (all the ones I`ve found thus far) ALL say! About Theism, Atheism and Agnosticism, not pregnancy...

    Dictionary > personal opinion on the meaning of words
  128. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 9:05 pm
    @5cats: I already showed you that your version of an agnostic cannot be anything other than an atheist. You are correct that an agnostic person doesn`t think you cannot prove or disprove a deity, but the way I`m using agnostic is completely valid, i.e. difference between belief and knowledge.

    @notorious: Oh, so the ONLY thing you need to have a religion is the belief? I guess religious folks can dispense with all the symbols, holy books, anectodal stories, prophets and other things that make a religion what it is. For that matter, I`m pretty sure most of us believe air exists, so does that make everyone who believes that part of a religion? Your reasoning is laughable.
  129. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 9:09 pm
    God is like being pregnant. You ARE, you are NOT or you don`t know yet. No fouth state exists
    No, because by your own definition the third option would mean you could NEVER know if you were pregnant or not. You need to understand the difference between belief and knowledge to get what we`re saying. I`m an agnostic atheist. I don`t believe God exists, but I don`t know for sure, so I can`t disprove God. However, that DOES NOT rule out the possibility that God *might* be provable or disprovable. If He showed up tomorrow I`d no longer be an agnostic atheist, but a gnostic theist.
  130. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 9:14 pm
    @patchy: By definition:
    Atheist = NO God(s). There`s just no way around that.
    Not knowing, not sure = Agnostic.
    Theist = Belief IN a God or Gods, depending on the type of -theism it is.

    You can repeat it all you like, but:
    Dictionary STILL > personal opinion.

    If you start talking about `forms of worship` that`s a whole different kettle of worms, eh?
  131. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 9:18 pm
    5cats: Here`s a quote from a REFERENCE, a book by George Smith (1979). Atheism: The Case Against God. p. 10-11. "Properly considered, agnosticism is not a third alternative to theism and atheism because it is concerned with a different aspect of religious belief. Theism and atheism refer to the presence or absence of belief in a god; agnosticism refers to the impossibility of knowledge with regard to a god or supernatural being. The term agnostic does not, in itself, indicate whether or not one believes in a god. Agnosticism can be either theistic or atheistic."
  132. Profile photo of Roland
    Roland Male 30-39
    298 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 9:33 pm
    Poor Darwin. The guy develops a theory of the adaptations of organisms and Christians have been character assassinating him ever since.
  133. Profile photo of carmanut
    carmanut Male 18-29
    76 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 9:42 pm
    Really? The reason I don`t care for a God is because I want to be an amoral non-nice individual? Not a chance...sign on a bulletin board!

    I don`t care for a God because I don`t want my rules of morality and conduct to be what some poohead decided centuries, millenia, or however long ago. My morality is my own.

    If anything, people who subscribe to religions are the ones who want to be less responsible. "The Devil made me do it!" "I punished that slut because God commanded it!" That`s what religion is for.
  134. Profile photo of photomstr
    photomstr Male 50-59
    766 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 9:45 pm
    You wanna suck what? Atheists believe in nothing at all. We have NO religion. We are not superstitious nor do we require a crutch to help us comprehend our enormous universe. We can accept what we know as well as what we don`t know. We know right from wrong . . . unlike many religious people!
  135. Profile photo of photomstr
    photomstr Male 50-59
    766 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 9:47 pm
    nice troll iab
  136. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 9:51 pm
    @Roland Nope, only a few uneducated Christians. Darwin was actually buried at a church! Fun fact, Darwin was not actually an atheist, but, rather an agnostic.
    "I have never been an atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. – I think that generally ... an agnostic would be the most correct description of my state of mind."
  137. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 9:53 pm
    @carmanut
    I believe in God but don`t believe that he interferes with the affairs of the universe. What is the point of my religion?
  138. Profile photo of jkfld
    jkfld Male 30-39
    138 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 10:02 pm
    "And it`s really funny to see religious people trying to tell atheists what they believe."

    Seriously. The desperation is palpable.
  139. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 10:04 pm
    "And it`s really funny to see religious people trying to tell atheists what they believe."

    No one is doing that here. You need to work on reading comprehension.
  140. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3889 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 10:07 pm
    Is this on the wall in the Special Ed class?
  141. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 10:27 pm
    @markust123 Aww, come on, mate, you really have to bring special needs children into this?
  142. Profile photo of PoopNoodle
    PoopNoodle Male 40-49
    400 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:17 pm
    I never understood that about religion. They think that good people don`t do bad things because they`re scared they`ll go to hell. Personally, I try to be a good person because it makes me feel good.
  143. Profile photo of PoopNoodle
    PoopNoodle Male 40-49
    400 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:18 pm
    Janvi043
    Female, 18-29, Western US


    And why don`t the mods get rid of this skank? I can`t stand spammers.....
  144. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:26 pm
    Its the writing on the wall
  145. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:34 pm
    Janvi043
    Female, 18-29, Western US

    And why don`t the mods get rid of this skank? I can`t stand spammers.....
    Hey, the reason you don`t see much spam on I-A-B is because us Mods are all over it like a fat kid on cake. Bots/spammers have an extremely limited lifespan on here. As was this case. Trust me, I ban many dozens of spammers every week.
  146. Profile photo of ExtraCredit
    ExtraCredit Male 50-59
    451 posts
    April 18, 2012 at 11:45 pm
    My favorite oxymoron: biblical scholar
  147. Profile photo of sapling
    sapling Female 18-29
    54 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 12:23 am
    "To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity for thought." ~Henri Poincare
  148. Profile photo of TrustusJones
    TrustusJones Male 30-39
    61 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 12:50 am
    Show me the perfect being. I bet he/she/it will clear this up for all of us. Until then, we`ll just have to try and play nice. I`m just happy to live with the freedom to make up my own mind and have acceptance for the beliefs of others. Sure, any belief sounds dumb at times, but it helps people feel whole. Yes, even not believing.
  149. Profile photo of Tobunshi
    Tobunshi Male 18-29
    678 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 2:19 am
    I think doing good things because it`s good is more responsible than doing good things because GOD.
  150. Profile photo of Giardia
    Giardia Male 30-39
    37 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 3:35 am
    Yep, seems legit.
  151. Profile photo of kingdomCome
    kingdomCome Male 18-29
    338 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 3:45 am
    @sapling, obviously Henri Poincare was a complete moron then. Doubt is the father of thought....*can`t be bothered looking up a decent reference for Cartesian doubt
  152. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 3:53 am
    The definition of atheism is wrong

    @Angilion: Again, not according to the Dictionary. It is in fact correct.

    What is this Dictionary you`re holding up? You make it sound like your holy book, all the more so because you capitalise it.

    I don`t care if you`ve found a dictionary that has an incorrect definition of `atheism` in it and you`ve chosen to regard that as your divine book of truth because it suits you to do so.

    Any decent dictionary will contain the correct definition.

    Any look at etymology will show the correct definition.

    Any look at history will show the correct definition.

    Any look at atheist material will show the correct definition.

    Your theist redefinition of `atheism` is either an inability to understand anyone who doesn`t think in a religious way or propaganda to drag atheism down to the level of just another religion. It is not reality.
  153. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 4:02 am
    WRONG! @LillianDulci: Atheists say that God DID NOT creat the univese. Therefor they DO have an belief in how it was (or was not) created!

    Wrong again.

    I don`t know how the universe was created. I don`t know *if* the universe was created. That might sound implausible - the universe exists, so it must have been created, right? Not necessarily. If time is a function of the universe, then there can`t be any such thing as before the universe existed. Which means that there can`t be any such thing as the universe not existing. Which means that the universe has always existed.

    So not only do I not have any beliefs about how the universe was created, I don`t even have any belief about IF the universe was created.

    You`re desperately trying to pretend that atheists are theists. Why are you doing that?
  154. Profile photo of Stonardsftw
    Stonardsftw Male 18-29
    321 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 4:08 am
    Is that lack of belief in the Greek Gods a form of religion? Is the lack of belief in the magical tree daddy in Avatar a form of religion?
  155. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 4:20 am
    What`s the difference between "Agnostic Atheist" and "Agnostic Theist" exactly?
    Nothing, that`s what. Leaning one way or the other doesn`t make a hoot of difference, they both believe God may OR MAY NOT exist. Same... thing...

    Only if you haven`t understood the basic concepts. An agnostic theist believes that their preferred god(s) exist. An agnostic atheist does not believe that any gods exist. You couldn`t be more wrong if you tried.

    Theism is about religious beliefs, about religious faith. It has nothing to do with knowledge.

    Gnosticism is about knowledge. It has nothing to do with religious faith.

    The only way a person could fail to see the difference between the two is if they think that their faith is knowledge. If that`s true for you, as it appears to be, you will have made yourself incapable of understanding even what the words mean.
  156. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 4:20 am

    An agnostic does not declare something to be objectively true if they can`t objectively prove it. That`s the idea that the word `agnosticism` was created to describe. It is not a religious term and it applies to everything, not just religion. Don`t bother pulling out your Dictionary in which you`ve written a different definition - I don`t share your faith in your holy book.

    An agnostic theist believes in their god(s) and religion because they have religious faith (theist) and acknowledges that they can`t objectively prove the existence of their preferred god(s) or the truth of their preferred religion (agnostic).

    An agnostic atheist acknowledges that they can`t objectively prove the existence or non-existence of any god (agnostic) and doesn`t believe in them anyway because they don`t have religious faith (atheist).
  157. Profile photo of slut_etta
    slut_etta Female 50-59
    3849 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 5:38 am
    its interesting to me that while i try my best to be respectful to others` religious beliefs, my own lack of religion is met with contempt and derision.

    that, i think, is the most infuriating part of the argument, the fact that one side can be mature and respectful while the other side, generally the religious, degenerates into fist thumping toddler tantrum behavior.

    what would jesus do, indeed!
  158. Profile photo of EgalM
    EgalM Male 30-39
    1707 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 7:15 am
    I`d prefer it if people would figure out how to co-exist, instead of this non-stop nonsense of just trying to be right. You can`t prove the Big Bang or God, so why even bother, put that effort where it will do some good.
  159. Profile photo of chickiesue86
    chickiesue86 Male 70 & Over
    273 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 7:17 am
    atheists take more responsibility for their actions than christians because they don`t rely on a martyr to forgive mankinds sins.
  160. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 7:32 am
    Don`t bother pulling out your Dictionary
    Oh right @Angilion, because Heaven forbid we should all speak the same language.

    How about this: you go about your day being WRONG on your definitions of words, and I`ll just smile quietly because I`m CORRECT!

    It may well be that, over time, if enough people decide to change the meaning of those words, that the English language will adapt and change. Hasn`t happened yet though, so until then I continue to be correct.

    What about Occam`s Razor? I thought you liked Occam @Angilion.
  161. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 7:35 am
    You can`t prove the Big Bang or God, so why even bother, put that effort where it will do some good.
    That`s ridiculous, if people had thought like that we wouldn`t have planes, spacecraft, nuclear power, etc. Not to mention the discourse furthers philosophical and cultural evolution.

    "Ah, but a man`s reach should exceed his grasp -- or what`s a heaven for?" -Robert Browning
  162. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 7:38 am
    @5cats: Your online dictionaries don`t necessarily hold the weight you assign them. Any idiot with a domain can start an online dictionary, as is evidenced by your reference to the Theologian`s dictionary. There`s no review process and they aren`t even published. I`ve provided a book reference supporting my point, not some online webpage that has no verifiable legitimacy.
  163. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 7:54 am
    @Patchy: The Big Fat Dictionary I keep close by (because I cannot spell for beans) says the exact same thing. Things.
    Every on-line dictionary also says the same things.
    Merriam Webster read the comments, they argue the very same thing!
    Cambridge
    YourDictionary
    Wiki Too!

    Dictionary > One book reference
  164. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 7:56 am
    Don`t bother pulling out your Dictionary

    Oh right @Angilion, because Heaven forbid we should all speak the same language.

    I wasn`t refering to a dictionary. I was referring to your Dictionary. Not the same thing at all. A dictionary defines words. Your Dictionary defines what you want words to mean.

    I could reference a dozen dictionaries that contain the correct definition. It`s about your Dictionary, not a dictionary.

    It may well be that, over time, if enough people decide to change the meaning of those words, that the English language will adapt and change.

    It`s true that the campaigning that you and others are doing to change the meaning of the words `atheism` and `agnosticism` is having some success. A large number of people don`t know the correct meaning of the words, thanks to people like you.
  165. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:01 am
    I can only assume that you`re trying to utterly suppress the concepts of atheism and agnosticism by redefining English to remove any word to describe them. There must be a reason for your campaign of redefinitions and that`s the only one I can think of. Doubleplusgood Newspeak, citizen!

    Of course, it will still be possible to be an agnostic atheist, but if you succeed in removing any words to talk about it you will have a great deal of success in suppressing it. By redefining both agnosticism and atheism, you will suppress both.

    If that`s not your intention, then why are you doing it?
  166. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:07 am
    Here, for example, is the OED:

    OED summary definition

    Since you like Wikipedia, here`s the page on atheism:

    Wikipedia page

    [quote">Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[/quote">

    You`re just plain wrong in promoting a redefinition for religious-political purposes.
  167. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:09 am
    Oxford

    idk why people get so upset over it. If you LIKE to call yourself an "atheist" even though your philosophy is different, be my guest!

    Just don`t `wonder why` people don`t understand you: it`s because you aren`t being accurate.
  168. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:12 am
    "I could reference a dozen dictionaries that contain the correct definition."
    O really? @Angilion?
    Or are you looking up a different word?

    Atheist =/= Atheism
  169. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:17 am
    @5cats: So what makes your book better than my book? Please enlighten me. But since you like wikipedia, you might want to check out their page on agnosticism, where they outline my definition of agnostic as being theistic and atheistic.
  170. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:18 am
    @5cats: Another thing: all your dictionary definitions are just about atheism, not agnosticism. What point are you trying to make by saying that atheists don`t believe in a deity?
  171. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:27 am
    "an agnostic is someone who is undecided about the existence of a deity or deities, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively"
    From your link @patchy: exactly what I`ve been saying all along. 3 (three) divisions, not 4.

    Saying "Gnostic Atheist" or "Gnostic Theist"? The `gnostic` is redundant, ok? An athist KNOWS there is NO God(s), a thiest KNOWS there IS a God(s).
    Ditto for `A/A` and `A/T` in both cases the "Agnostic" is the important part. There is no difference at all between them, unless you go by `degrees` of not knowing.

    Question: Does God(s) Exist?
    Gnostic Atheist: NO!
    Gnostic Theist: YES!
    Agnostic Atheist: I don`t know
    Agnostic Theist: I don`t know

    See?

  172. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:33 am
    @5cats: You`re completely disregarding the part about belief and knowledge, and since you keep moving the goalposts, your argument is illogical and invalid.
  173. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:47 am
    And as I`ve already shown:

    "Question: Does God(s) Exist?
    Gnostic Atheist: NO!
    Gnostic Theist: YES!
    Agnostic Atheist: I don`t know
    Agnostic Theist: I don`t know"

    The gnostic part isn`t redundant, because you seem to think that belief = certainty when it doesn`t. Saying I believe something doesn`t axiomatically mean I`m certain.
  174. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:47 am
    I`ve moved the goalposts?

    By saying the same thing consistantly.
    By backing up my claims with evidence.
    By pointing out that YOUR evidence support MY claim.

    Yeah, no.
  175. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:50 am
    @5cats: You`re moving the goalposts by claiming your book is better than my book, without any justification.
  176. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:52 am
    @5cats: Let`s take your oxford definition for example: It never says that atheists are *certain*, only that they *believe*. Why do you have such a hard time differentiating between belief and certainty?
  177. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:52 am
    Fine then, but be sure to call yourself an "Agnostic Atheist" all the time to avoid confusion, ok?

    Because Atheist is NOT the same as Agnostic Atheist.

    It IS redundant, apply Occam`s Razor to simplify and clarify. 3 accurate terms is better than 4 accurate terms (when 2 of the terms mean the same damn thing!).

    Your book? That`s moving the goalposts? Oy vey! Have you proved MY books to be wrong yet? Are YOU moving the posts too? Cheesus!
  178. Profile photo of Satkela
    Satkela Female 18-29
    583 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 9:13 am
    I don`t know if that is an Atheist reasoning behind their non-belief but there are some pretty religious Atheist out there...
  179. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 9:27 am
    If atheism is a religion than off is a channel on tv.
  180. Profile photo of WalkinAftr12
    WalkinAftr12 Female 18-29
    169 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 9:28 am
    If anything, aren`t atheists more responsible for their actions because they don`t have any invisible deity telling them what to do?
  181. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 9:33 am
    agnostic/gnostic = knowledge of god as in "I know there is a god" or "I do not know if god exists or not."

    Atheist/theist = belief of god as in "I believe in god" or "I do not believe in god".
  182. Profile photo of mjy34222
    mjy34222 Male 50-59
    26 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 9:42 am
    "What my own views may be is a question of no consequence to any one but myself. But, as you ask, I may state that my judgment often fluctuates. … In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an Atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. I think that generally (and more and more as I grow older), but not always, that an Agnostic would be the more correct description of my state of mind."
    Darwin
  183. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 10:35 am
    @5cats: I`m not moving the goalposts, I`m asserting my position with a reference. You are refuting my claim that agnosticism is about knowledge. Here`s a dictionary source for you. Agnosticism is the denial of proof of absolute KNOWLEDGE. Let`s go further and define belief from your beloved dictionary. It is an OPINION or CONVICTION. This doesn`t mean you think something is necessarily true, just that you believe it.
  184. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 10:37 am
    @5cats: So yes, I am an agnostic atheist. You also conveniently don`t address my claim that your third option agnostic is actually an atheist. I`m showing you that your definition is faulty.
  185. Profile photo of Bountykat
    Bountykat Female 18-29
    399 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 12:03 pm
    Wait, there is no God and thus no Satan to blame for my actions, but I do not blame myself either...Then...who do I magically peg as the root of these actions? Who do I suppose takes responsibility...??
  186. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 12:07 pm
    my claim that your third option agnostic is actually an atheist

    When have you claimed that? Except in this latest posting? Yes Agnostic beliefs CAN BE what you say. But it can also be used the other way too.

    So the dictionaries all over the world are wrong. Fine, you`re right and the whole world is teh stupid...

    a religious orientation of doubt;
    Oh my, your source confirms MY side, again! You do know what a ";" is used for, eh?
    atheist (someone who does not believe in the existence of a god)
    Your source ALSO confims my definition of Atheist...

    You`re really floundering on the whole `belief` definition...
    "a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith"
    Tenet: "any opinion, principle, doctrine, dogma, etc., especially one held as true by members"

    Shall we argue about what the word "is" is? ala: Slick Willy Clinton?
  187. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 12:34 pm
    @5cats: I know my definition of atheist matches yours, that`s not what I`m arguing.
    When have you claimed that? Except in this latest posting?
    Back on what is now page 6:
    I`ll tell you why your definition is faulty: If you ask your version of an agnostic person whether they believe in God(s) or not, they would have to say either "no" or "I don`t know", which is basically a "no", because it`s not a "yes". So in that case, all people you deem agnostic are actually atheist.

    I`m not saying that an agnostic can`t be what you claim it is, because many people that don`t know just say they`re agnostic. But that doesn`t mean that my interpretation isn`t valid, because it is. The dictionary says an atheist is one who rejects belief in a deity. Ok, that`s fine. It also says agnosticism is the denial of proof of knowledge. So my interpretation works. Does every belief a person holds carry with it certainty of truth?
  188. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 12:59 pm
    I think we`re both arguing here but either of our interpretations of agnosticism can be valid. The word is used in different contexts, and could either describe a person unsure about the existence of God(s), or regarding the certainty of someone`s beliefs.
  189. Profile photo of ak2nc1
    ak2nc1 Female 18-29
    867 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 2:05 pm
    I just knew when I saw this post, that every comment would be a soapboxy 3 page rebuttle. Jesus just keep the heavy stuff of IAB I`m tired of all these asshats farting out `look at me I`m smart` babble
  190. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 2:18 pm
    @ak2nc1: Thank you for your $0.02.

    @Patchy: Agnosticism =/= Agnostic.
    Of course, the `philosophy` of Agnosticism is what you say, `things CANNOT be known 100% for sure` or something like that. Wait, how do they KNOW that nothing can be known...
    ...
    Nevermind!
    In context of religion, an Agnostic Person doesn`t know if God exists or not, at least not for sure.
    Agnostic Atheist = Agnostic Theist.
    Same thing!

    But thanks for being polite this whole time! You too @Angilion!
  191. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 3:12 pm
    "Agnostic Atheist = Agnostic Theist.
    Same thing! "
    How is this even close to being true?

    A gnostic atheist thinks without a doubt there`s no god.

    An agnostic atheist also thinks there`s no god, but admits that humans are fallible and there`s a teeny tiny possibility that they`re wrong.

    An agnostic theist thinks there is a god, but admits that humans are fallible and there`s a teeny tiny possibility that they`re wrong.

    So how does "believes in no god but there`s a teeny tiny chance they`re wrong" = "believes in a god but there`s a teeny tiny chance they`re wrong"?

    They aren`t the same. Both aren`t like "well it`s 50/50 either way", they both believe either there is or isn`t a god, they just aren`t 100% certain than they`re correct. An agnostic atheist is basically the same as a gnostic atheist other than the gnostic atheist claims to be certain.
  192. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 3:19 pm
    Take for example your average atheist. You`ll find that most atheists are agnostic atheists because we realize there`s a tiny chance that we`re wrong. Some think it`s such a miniscule chance that there`s no reason to repeatedly say "oh I might be wrong but I think there`s no god". They simply think there`s no god.

    Now take for example a realistic Christian, or how most religious people probably are even if they don`t admit it. They`re an agnostic theist. They believe in a god but a tiny part of them realizes they might be wrong. They still go to church, worship, pray, etc. They`re just realistic and realize there`s a tiny chance that they`re wrong.

    How are these two people exactly the same as you claim? They`re not.
  193. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 4:07 pm
    idk why people get so upset over it. If you LIKE to call yourself an "atheist" even though your philosophy is different, be my guest!

    Just don`t `wonder why` people don`t understand you: it`s because you aren`t being accurate.

    You`ve just quoted a link to the correct definition of `atheist` and you`re claiming that it supports your incorrect redefinition of the word.

    Did you not notice or did you just assume nobody would even look at the link you gave?
  194. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 4:20 pm
    an agnostic is someone who is undecided about the existence of a deity or deities

    Completely wrong in several ways.

    An agnostic is a person who doesn`t state something is objectively true unless it can be objectively proven true.

    That it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts and in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism.

    Thomas Huxley, 1889. He invented the word `agnosticism`.

    (a)gnosticism is about knowledge.
    (a)theism is about faith in gods.

    Knowledge and faith are not the same thing. So (a)gnosticsm and (a)theism are not different positions on the same subject. They are positions on different subjects.
  195. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 4:23 pm
    There is no difference at all between them, unless you go by `degrees` of not knowing.

    Question: Does God(s) Exist?
    Gnostic Atheist: NO!
    Gnostic Theist: YES!
    Agnostic Atheist: I don`t know
    Agnostic Theist: I don`t know

    See?

    I see that you`re ignoring key words.

    Agnostic atheist: I don`t know (agnostic) and I don`t have faith (atheist).

    Agnostic theist: I don`t know (agnostic) and I do have faith (theist).

    Not having faith and having faith are not the same thing, so those two positions are not the same position.
  196. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 4:27 pm
    More accurately:

    Agnostic atheist: I can`t objectively prove either the existence or non-existence of gods and so I won`t call either an objective truth. I don`t have faith in their existence.

    Agnostic theist: I can`t objectively prove either the existence or non-existence of gods and so I won`t call either an objective truth. I do have faith in the existence of <insert whatever god or gods they have faith in>.

    Do you see the difference between the two positions?
  197. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 4:47 pm
    An agnostic atheist also thinks there`s no god, but admits that humans are fallible and there`s a teeny tiny possibility that they`re wrong.

    I wouldn`t go that far. I don`t give much thought as to whether or not there are any gods. It`s not that I am almost sure that there aren`t any. It`s that I don`t know and have no way of finding out. It`s an irrelevant question. I`m an atheist because it`s the default position - if there`s no evidence for something, there`s no sensible reason to believe it`s true. May as well believe that aeroplanes are held up by undetectable magic pixies, or that our far ancestors came down out of the trees because Wooshasa the famous holovid star from Intergalactic Channel 19 started a fad by tempting one down with a piece of wasni fruit to make a cute photo opportunity. Maybe it happened. Who knows? Who cares? Why believe it?
  198. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 5:07 pm
    Angilion, I should`ve been more clear, but I was trying to give examples of how each of those people might think. I was not trying to claim that every single person in each of the categories thinks the exact same way. That`s why I put "an ____" instead of "____s"
  199. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 6:16 pm
    @Angilion: I`ve put up 4-5 links, they ALL say the same thing. If one is different, please enlighten.
    I say again:
    Agnostic =/= Agnosticism. They`re two entirely different words, with different meanings! DUH! THEY ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE ffs...

    Do you see the difference between the two positions?
    I see semantics. They both have the same answer, just different `spin`.

    So sorry, but when you tell me that EVRY DICTIONARY in the WHOLE WORLD is wrong, you need some rock-solid proof.
  200. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 7:11 pm
    "I don`t know and have no way of finding out. It`s an irrelevant question. I`m an atheist because it`s the default position" You sound more like an agnostic to me. You definitely aren`t a pure-bred atheist, if anything you`re a damn mutt!(jk about the mutt part)
  201. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 7:53 pm
    @Angilion: I`ve put up 4-5 links, they ALL say the same thing. If one is different, please enlighten.

    The link I referred to defined `atheist` as `a person who does not believe in any gods`.

    That`s what we`ve been telling you and you`ve been saying is wrong.

    So either all your links contradict your claims or your links don`t agree with each other.

    Agnostic =/= Agnosticism. They`re two entirely different words, with different meanings! DUH! THEY ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE ffs...

    Nobody is claiming that they are. You`re fighting a strawman. An agnostic is a person who follows the idea of agnosticism. I have no idea what you`re doing with this line of argument.

  202. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 7:58 pm
    "Do you see the difference between the two positions?"

    I see semantics. They both have the same answer, just different `spin`.

    Then you don`t understand a concept that`s fundamental to religion or lack thereof - faith. You`re claiming that having faith in something is the same as not having faith in it. You`re obviously wrong.

    So sorry, but when you tell me that EVRY DICTIONARY in the WHOLE WORLD is wrong, you need some rock-solid proof.

    You`re talking rubbish again. I`m not telling you that. Even the dictionaries you`ve provided links to aren`t telling you that, since *they don`t all use the same definition that you do*.

    You should understand what faith is, because you`re showing it. You`re defending your faith even in the face of direct evidence that it`s wrong, even when you`re referencing that evidence yourself. You`re very devout in your faith.
  203. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:04 pm
    "I don`t know and have no way of finding out. It`s an irrelevant question. I`m an atheist because it`s the default position" You sound more like an agnostic to me. You definitely aren`t a pure-bred atheist, if anything you`re a damn mutt!(jk about the mutt part)

    As I have said several times, with explanations, I am an agnostic atheist. I`ll summarise again, so you don`t have to read any of this thread:

    Gnostic theist: Claims to know for certain that their god(s) exist.

    Gnostic atheist: Claims to know for certain that no gods exist.

    Agnostic atheist: Does not claim to have objective proof of the existence or non-existence of gods, therefore doesn`t claim either position to be objective truth. Does not believe in any gods.

    Agnostic theist: Does not claim to have objective proof of the existence or non-existence of gods, therefore doesn`t claim either position to be objective truth. Does believe in a god or god
  204. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:07 pm
    @Angilion That was where the whole mutt joke came from...
  205. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:07 pm
    Bah, cut off by the "IAB can`t count" truncation.

    The last sentence should read "Does believe in a god or gods as an act of faith."
  206. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:21 pm
    Why complicate it? Why not just: atheist, theist, and agnostic? In fact, I think that`s all it is. Screw your agnostic theism and gnostic atheism. It`s one or the other or not at all. I don`t know any agnostic theists. All the believers I know do more than believe. They know in their hearts God is there.
  207. Profile photo of swoop408
    swoop408 Male 18-29
    1754 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:37 pm
    Responsible for my actions? And what actions are those? No, Atheism is not a religion. We don`t have hangouts, brunches, or cathedrals. We just go about our drating lives.
  208. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:48 pm
    swoop
    I think that sums it up right there!
  209. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:55 pm
    "Atheism is not a religion. We don`t have hangouts, brunches, or cathedrals."
    Because these things define religion? Also, `brunches` is not something that is specific to a religion, you big dummy. Lots of people eat brunch.
  210. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:57 pm
    @jadoig Most theist religions are actually supposed to be agnostic theists. One of the core principals of Christianity is faith, and, without having an agnostic viewpoint, having `faith` is impossible.
  211. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 8:58 pm
    @jadoig Just because you don`t know any agnostic theists or gnostic atheists doesn`t mean they don`t exist. I don`t know any police officers. I guess police aren`t real.
  212. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 9:10 pm
    "@jadoig Just because you don`t know any agnostic theists or gnostic atheists doesn`t mean they don`t exist. I don`t know any police officers. I guess police aren`t real."

    That`s just silly. You have other accounts of them and have seen pictures and news article with policement. This is the first I`ve heard of an agnostic theist.

  213. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 9:13 pm
    Also, The Silence scared the crap outta me. *shiver*

    *waves TARDIS pennant*
  214. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 9:15 pm
    The link I referred to defined `atheist` as `a person who does not believe in any gods`.
    Um, that would be all of my links, since that is what I`ve been saying from the start.
    Atheist = NO God(s)

    Why complicate it? Why not just: atheist, theist, and agnostic?
    Bless your heart @jadoig! YOU `get it`!

    @Angilion: Either God exists (by faith OR reason), God does not exist (by faith OR reason) OR you don`t know (by faith OR reason). There is no "4th state" for the existance of God. imho of course.
  215. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 9:18 pm
    @jadoig: Which "The Silence"?

    IMDB has a lot of titles.
  216. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 9:20 pm
    Wait, I guess it doesn`t matter, It`s just an adjective.
    big orange, small orange
    passive atheist, militant atheist
    lukewarm christian, devout christian

    Why differentiate? So you can tell the difference. People like to classify.
  217. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 9:21 pm
    LOL. They`re aliens from Dr. Who. Also Eddy666`s avatar.
  218. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 9:30 pm
    Oooo! ic. lolz! Thanks, I can sleep now ;-)
  219. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 9:46 pm
    @jadoig Oh, well, I`m telling you there are agnostic theists, then. :)
  220. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 9:49 pm
    Edddy. Very well. i`ll choose to believe you. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. It is not a 4th position on god by any means. Just a description of a variance of one of the three.
  221. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    April 19, 2012 at 9:58 pm
    I don`t believe in Agnostics.
  222. Profile photo of StSusieB
    StSusieB Female 18-29
    15 posts
    April 20, 2012 at 6:35 am
    I find the idea of Atheism being a "Popular *Religion*" to be hilarious.
  223. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    April 20, 2012 at 8:14 am
    5cats:

    There are people that believe there is a god but do not claim to know for sure.

    There are people who claim to know for sure there is a god and claim they know which god (knowledge).

    There are people that don`t believe in god but don`t claim to know for sure.

    There are people that claim there is no god and know it.

    When it comes to a Christian god I am a strict atheist, I don`t believe he exists and the dogma of the belief is so convaluded and contradictory that that god cannot exist (same goes for every other specific god that is worshipped). I am agnostic as far as the possibility of a deistic god.

  224. Profile photo of sapling
    sapling Female 18-29
    54 posts
    April 20, 2012 at 9:14 am
    @kingdomCome, to simply take the word "doubt" out of contex to make your argument doesn`t make for a very good argument. Notice that the quote I used referred to believing or doubting EVERYTHING. ALso, there are many other things besides doubt that "father" thought, curiosity being one of them. Please don`t start replying back and turning this into a whole huge argument. You have your opinion, you`re allowed to it, but if you`re going to make arguments, please make them logical. Thanks.
  225. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    April 20, 2012 at 1:44 pm
    vv That`s a fair description @Otto, specificly Atheist (Jehova) but overall possible Agnostic...

    @Zeegrr60: I believe in Gosticism! At least I think so...
  226. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 20, 2012 at 5:47 pm
    "The link I referred to defined `atheist` as `a person who does not believe in any gods`."

    Um, that would be all of my links, since that is what I`ve been saying from the start.

    No, it isn`t. That`s what I`ve been saying. You`ve been saying that an atheist is a person who believes there are no gods.

    It appears that you have not understood what you`ve read in dictionaries. Or what has been explained to you in great detail. You`re still thinking that two very different positions are the same position.

    @Angilion: Either God exists (by faith OR reason), God does not exist (by faith OR reason) OR you don`t know (by faith OR reason).

    Unless you believe that humans create or uncreate your god by either believing or not believing in them, what you`ve just written makes no sense.

    There is no "4th state" for the existance of God.

    There are only 2 states for that - e
  227. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 20, 2012 at 5:48 pm
    Cut off, as usual:

    There are only two states for the existence of your god (or any other god) - existence or non-existence.

    But that has nothing to do with what people think, unless you think that the existence or non-existence of gods depends on what people think.
  228. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    April 20, 2012 at 5:57 pm
    Why complicate it? Why not just: atheist, theist, and agnostic?

    Because they`re *about different things*. They`re not three different positions on the same thing.

    Why complicate it by giving a different meaning to a word that already exists, pretending that two different positions are the same position and pretending that faith and objective, provable knowledge are the same thing?

    Here are 4 *different* positions:

    Does not claim to know for sure about the existence of gods. Does not believe in them.

    Does not claim to know for sure about the existence of gods. Does believe in one or some of them, as an act of faith.

    Claims to know for sure that no gods exist.

    Claims to know for sure that one or some gods exist.

    4 different positions. Not 3.

    Agnostic (no knowledge) atheist (no belief).
    Agnostic (no knowledge) theist (belief).
    Gnostic (knowledge) atheist (no belief).
    Gnostic (kn
  229. Profile photo of Wendypants
    Wendypants Female 30-39
    2420 posts
    April 23, 2012 at 6:41 am
    That`s rich coming from people know for centuries to scream, "The devil made me do it!" to explain the horrible, horrible things they`d do.
  230. Profile photo of Wendypants
    Wendypants Female 30-39
    2420 posts
    April 23, 2012 at 6:41 am
    Sorry, *known*

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