Health Care Bill: Double Counting Doubles Crisis

Submitted by: ozzymandiaas 5 years ago in

More scary government accounting shenanigans in the Health Care Bill.
There are 78 comments:
Male 15,832
@jendrian, it`s kind hard to "administer" money years after someone else had promised to give it away.
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Male 2,516
@OldOllie: that graph just means your government is pretty dumb at administering money. Like I said before, if other governments, less rich (like Morocco) manage, so can the US.
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Male 15,832

I`ll be dead. Go f*** yourselves. (And this doesn`t even count Obamacare.)
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Male 2,516
Don`t bother patchgrabber, OldOllie honestly pays attention to Rush Limbaugh, if you try to go back a few posts you`ll see me quoting and linking to both news reporting and scientific research from several countries, but no he`s still sold on the usual false arguments.
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Male 5,811
[quote]they have the US health care system to fall back on when their system can`t provide lifesaving treatments.[/quote]
Source, or conservative clap-trap?
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Male 5,811
So to sum it all up: Americans won`t change to another healthcare system unless it`s perfect, even though they export their sick on neighbouring countries, treat their ERs like a GPs office (I wonder how much that costs you in tax, ollie), and let the HMOs make healthcare artificially expensive.

Then we usually reach the end of the shrubbery maze when an American inevitably mentions waiting times. What they fail to realize is that most countries with public health care also have a private option (2-tier). For example I recently needed a CT scan and was able to get one in a few days, providing I pay for myself. Also, governments like Japan`s provide incentives for doctors to stay in the public sphere, so the conservative slippery-slope argument about a doctor`s mass exodus to private sector is hogwash.
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Female 90
OldOllie

What about Australia`s system? Medicare? It words, and we certainly do not fall back on other countries for procedures.

I`m actually a uni student (and hence not making very much) who requires constant medication, that without I could fall into a life threatening condition. Without Medicare I would actually not have the funds to even buy it, let alone the money for docs appointments or tests! With it, it`s subsidised from some $100 a week (Almost more then my rent!) to around $10.

Is this on other peoples dime? Yes. But you know what? I will graduate in 3 years and start work and be putting a dratload of taxes back into the system, so I`m going to take it.

TL;DR it drating works. Magic and miracles yo.
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Male 2,516
@auburnjunky
Taxes and death are all that`s guaranteed in life.
Get used to it.
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Male 10,339
"then all it needs is a small kick"

A small kick in this case, is taking people`s money when they don`t want to give it.
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Male 2,516
I give up OldOllie, no amount of studies or evidence will show you countries with socialized health care are not "doomed to fail".

And by the way, if socialized health care is like a perpetual motion machine, then all it needs is a small kick every number of ticks to keep it running perfect. Where`s the fault in that?
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Male 15,832
[quote]socialized health care seems to work.[/quote]
Any perpetual motion machine seems to work...till it stops. ALL government-run health care systems are doomed to failure, and most of them are showing telltale signs of it now. The ONLY reason Canada`s system "seems to work" is they have the US health care system to fall back on when their system can`t provide lifesaving treatments. Once we adopt a similar system to theirs, they will have no place to go when their NHS puts them on a 6-month waiting list for cancer surgery. They will simply have to go home, take a pain pill, and die.
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Male 2,516
According to the WHO (pages 15 and 18, for graphs if you`re lazy) socialized health care seems to work.
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Male 2,516
@OldOllie: Funny, the study I linked to concluded the diametric opposite of your point:

[quote]The fact that other countries are reducing these preventable deaths more rapidly, yet spending far less, indicates that policy, goals and efforts to improve health systems make a difference. [/quote]
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Male 15,832
No, no type of GOVERNMENT health care works. The more government intervention you have in the market, the worse it gets till you get complete government control in which case it fails completely. Just get the government the hell out of health care altogether.
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Male 15,832
@jendrian I`m not defending the US healthcare system. In fact, it`s a total clusterdrat. The problem, though is not a lack of government intervention. It`s the government that has it all screwed up. For instance, in WWII FDR instituted wage and price controls, which meant that for companies to be able to retain good employees, they could not give them raises. Then someone came up with the idea of employer-paid health insurance which totally screwed up the market ever since. Now if your employer doesn`t provide health insurance, your well and truly hosed, because the government pretty much killed that market. Also, read on...
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Male 2,516
@OldOllie, I don`t know what the hell you`re doing then, so in your view no type of health care works? That`s all I could gather from your posts.
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Male 15,832
Health insurance is WAY too expensive. One reason is that the government lets insurance companies and lobbyists write minimum requirements for policies which drive up the cost to the point that many can`t afford it. Then government prohibits the sale of health insurance across state lines, so you`re forced to pay for a bunch of crap that you don`t want. For instance, free or very low-cost office visits encourages people to go to the doctor for colds, hangnails, sunburns, headaches, bellyaches, etc., whereas if they had to pay $50 out-of-pocket, they would probably stay home. For some reason, paying $50 for an office visit is unacceptable, but having your employer pay $1000/mo for your insurance so you can go to the doctor whenever you want for $5 is just fine. (cont.)
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Male 15,832

Also, malpractice lawsuits with unlimited damage awards force doctors to practice "defensive medicine" so if they ever get a bad result, even if it`s through no fault of their own, they can say in court "I did EVERYTHING I possibly could have." It used to be that if you sprained your ankle, you put some ice on it, took some aspirin, and wrapped it up in an Ace bandage. Now people go the emergency room and get an MRI. Why, because when you sprain your ankle, there`s about a 1 in a million chance that you develop a blood clot that could travel to your heart. Why should a doctor or a hospital risk a $multimillion lawsuit when they can actually make money by billing the insurance company $2000-3000 for the MRI?
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Male 2,516
lol @5Cats, ignoring the fact that the people that did the study did not ignore all those variables.
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Male 2,516
Here`s the whole article if anyone`s interested, it`s a pretty interesting read. The actual number quoted in the article is "75 000 to 101 000" of preventable deaths in the US.

In the words of senior vice-president of the Commonwealth fund Cathy Schoen:

[quote">The fact that other countries are reducing these preventable deaths more rapidly, yet spending far less, indicates that policy, goals and efforts to improve health systems make a difference.[/quote">.

Read that OldOllie? It`s not a miserable failure, it`s not FUBAR, it`s actually working, in spite of the inevitable mistakes.
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Male 37,778
Oooo, I thought you were extrapolating your 100K die from before...
My bad!

However: it`s still a tremendously flawed item. Pseudo-science; picking & choosing statistics will get you any result you like! Ignoring dozens of other variables will get the same pseudo-results also.
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Male 2,516
@5Cats: I`m just going to assume your reading comprehension skills failed you this time, as quoting reuters:

[quote]If the U.S. health care system performed as well as those of those top three countries, there would be 101,000 fewer deaths in the United States per year, according to researchers writing in the journal Health Affairs.[/quote]

That is, if the US health-care performed with the rates France and/or the UK operate with for 3 years, there would be 101 000 fewer deaths per year.

Namely, not a rate of zero, and precisely what my comment was trying to express (303 000 success stories of socialized health care).
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Male 37,778
[quote]In fact, according to reuters, had the US implemented socialized medicine at some point in the past 3 years, I could quote you 303 000 beautiful stories of it succeeding[/quote]
@jendrian: You`ve misunderstood the statistics involved in your example.
Please don`t get mad as I explain. Also, there`s actual math wizards at IAB who know more then I do, but even I know this:

If as you suggest 300,00 lives `would be saved` had the the USA implimented socialized medicine 3 years ago, their `fail rate` would be ZERO!
However, France`s `fail rate` is 65/100K of population, best in the world!
Therefor, your expectations are... optimistic? That`s a nice word, right?

This `fail rate` also doesn`t take into account a TON of other variables, so it`s a "loose guide" at best, eh?
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Male 2,516
@OldOllie: wow, I guess because a few things go wrong here and there the whole system is rubbish and is "FUBAR" and has failed miserably.

Do I need to quote life expectancies to you? Do I really need to link you to the numerous videos of people being drugged up and kicked out of hospitals in the US because of lack of insurance? Do I need to have you read LillianDulci`s post about her mom filing bankruptcy for treatment?

For every horror story you can encounter of "the horrors of socialized medicine", I can find you a good 10 000 beautiful stories where it has saved lives.

In fact, according to reuters, had the US implemented socialized medicine at some point in the past 3 years, I could quote you 303 000 beautiful stories of it succeeding
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Male 15,832
[quote]@OldOllie, we agree then: if the US made an effort to try and find out how other countries have managed universal health care, you could probably implement it.[/quote]
jendrian, please accept my humble apologies for not making myself more clear. We have watched other countries implement universal health care, and we have watched it fail miserably despite the pathetic denials of those poor bastards whose health care systems are now totally FUBAR.

Here are some horror stories from the UK. There are probably just as many from any other country that has been foolish enough to destroy their health care system by handing it over to a "people`s committee."

Click here for a list of Google search results. http://tinyurl.com/7rbgjbv

After clicking each link, search the page (<Ctrl>F) for the term "Great Moments" and read the post immediately following.
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Male 37,778
@Jendrian: My joke: (which I made up myself but it`s not really `origional`)

A Canadian man goes to the doctor. The doctor runs some tests and says:
D: I have good news and bad news. Which do you want to hear first?
M: Hit me with the bad news.
D: You have cancer and only 3 months to live, tops!
M: OMG! That`s terrible! What possible good news could there be after hearing that?
D: Well, there`s a simple operation to cure you, it`s 99% effective and since you`re Canadian, it`s absolutely free!
M: WOW! That`s terrific! How soon can I get the operation?
(doctor consults his schedual)
D: You`re in luck! I have an opening in early December!
(lolz!)
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Male 2,516
5Cats, like I said at the beginning: some treatment > no treatment always
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Male 25,416
Cool drawing...
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Male 37,778
[quote]Also, thanks for not going childish on me.[/quote]
You`re welcome. I notice @OldOllie`s been polite as well! Good manners often brings the same in response.

Only the title of that article suggests they "drummed up demand". Manitobans were already driving to Fargo in swarms, Grafton is almost 2 hours closer.

The NDP vowed to "put them out of business" by makihng our wait times lower. They haven`t, our wait times are shorter now BUT even the NDP admits that if many patients didn`t travel to North Dakota for MRIs it would be longer!

This is only one example, MRIs. Literally every test or procedure you can imagine has long wait times in Canada. AND you`re likely to get "extra billed" for lots of them, not free!

I said right off that if you have a BIG medical problem, it`s good to be Canadian. But otherwise...
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Male 2,516
@OldOllie, we agree then: if the US made an effort to try and find out how other countries have managed universal health care, you could probably implement it.
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Male 2,516
@5Cats: I fail to see the difference between: "experts think death could`ve been prevented with treatment" (deaths deemed preventable) and "people who definitely died because they lacked the treatment".

I agree though that the DMS Imaging Centre was put there specifically to meet demand from Manitoba, demand they apparently created (according to the only article I could find).

Point remains, it`s not like the canadian system is perfect, it could be (much) better, same as the NHS in England and the several mexican versions of it, as long as there`s people dying there`s room for improvement.

The point is that even then, it`s not as bad as you try to make it seem, and the fact that the US "exports sick people" to other countries for treatment is an indictment of how much better you have it in Canada, even if for MRIs in Manitoba you may need to wait long.

Also, thanks for not going childish on me.
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Male 15,832
[quote]Nope, what I`m saying is that if Canada, Mexico and Europe can manage to get decent medical care for *all* of their citizens, so can the US.[/quote]
Of course, the operative word in the above is "if." IF they could, you would have a point. The problem is, they can`t. People are going without care, and/or the systems are going broke.

If you want a fair comparison between government-regulated health care and free-market health care, go out and compare the prices of cataract surgery ($3000-5000 per eye) which is paid for by a 3rd party (insurance, Medicare, or Medicaid) vs. lasik vision correction ($700-1100 per eye) which is paid for by the patient.
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Male 37,778
Well @jendrian, I give you high marks for: a)trying and b) being polite about it! Both are rare at IAB!

Fist off: "deaths deemed preventable" is NOT the same as "people who die because they have no medical care" ok? Even France has 65/100K and they`re the best in the world! Yes the USA has a higher rate, combined with a HUGE population (3rd in the world eh?) to make it sound bad.

Second: 1997. Living here, I know for a fact that company was set up, very close to the border, expressly because we had 3 (THREE!) MRI machines in all of Manitoba at that time. ND, at the time, had 7, plus this one.
15 years ago, and they`re still in business! Still have 80% Canadian clients. The title of the article and what the article says are completely different things, eh?

Actually, you`ve supported what I`ve been saying, thx!
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Male 2,516
@OldOllie: Nope, what I`m saying is that if Canada, Mexico and Europe can manage to get decent medical care for *all* of their citizens, so can the US.

By the way, I lived in Mexico for 25 years, I had 2 kinds of government health care: military (because of my dad) which covered literally everything, and social security.

Mexican health care is a whole other story, there are several different kinds of health care: military, state employer social, national social and private (partial and full). Costs vary (including the socialized health care has a cost) from 20 MXN/mo (less than 2 dollars) for basic treatment to thousands of dollars a month for full private care.

There is regulation but our government doesn`t seem as moved by medical and insurance companies as in the US, that`s why we have very cheap treatment.
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Male 2,516
Finally found something : seems more like the DMS Imaging Centre of Grafton isn`t getting enough US patients that can afford its treatment, so -in the language of the magazine that published this- the centre is just "trolling" Manitoba patients to go hire their services.
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Male 15,832
[quote]lol, US health care is so bad they`re going to Mexico for treatment.[/quote]
This is true. The Mexican health care industry is subject to MUCH LESS regulation than the US health care industry, and consequently many treatments are much less expensive.

So, are you saying that imposing even more government control than we already have is going to make things more like Mexico where they have almost no government control? The fact is, many Americans are going to Mexico and Costa Rica for medical treatment because they have less regulated health care industries, and subsequently better quality care for the money. In fact, many US insurance companies will pay for your airfare to Costa Rica, put you up in a 4-star hotel, and waive your deductible if you go there for treatment. WE ought to be trying to be MORE like them, not less.

Check it out. http://medicalretreatabroad.com/
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Male 2,516
@5Cats: My number was spot on, I had just guessed it was 100 thousand people, turns out I was right.
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Male 2,516
you`re going to have to show some evidence of that, wikipedia cites sources, I`ve been looking for a little while for this fantastic Grafton company you talk about, which rich canadians are happy to pay for, but alas no luck.

Also, LilianDulci`s account completely disagrees with your last statement.
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Male 37,778
[quote]hundreds of thousands of people die in the US for refusal of medical treatment[/quote]
Yeah, your credibility is slipping there cousin...

iirc: Grafton ND (pop: 4,400) has an MRI company. It does about 4,000 MRI per year. About 80% is Canadians, thats... 3000 Cross-Border visits! From ONE SMALL COMPANY.
Say, how many fingers DO you have?

(iirc: which town it is, not the company or the numbers, those are accurate).

[quote]Not bad for an MRI. It must be nice being so rich you don`t care that other people need treatment more urgently than you do.[/quote]

That makes ZERO sense! If the `rich` go south, the `poor` get care faster! There`s no one `waiting` for months in the USA, so a Canuk going to Fargo delays... no one! AND speeds up Canada`s system. FFS.
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Male 15,832
[quote]All this does is make you uber-partisan.[/quote]
If knowing facts makes one "uber-partisan," I guess I`m guilty.

So tell me, what does being a gullible, closed-minded, left-wing-media-consuming, Kool-ade-drinking liberal ignoramus make you?
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Female 2,674
"The poor wait in pain and the rich go south, HOW is that `better`?"

At least the poor are able to get treatment without being denied or going into debt. There`s been 2 times in my lifetime where my mom almost died because she couldn`t afford treatment. Both times she waited so long until she could hardly function before going to the hospital, and both times she ended up having further complications that cost even more because of waiting so long. The first time she had to file for bankruptcy, luckily the second time wasn`t as expensive (but she needs a follow up surgery that she can`t afford or else the issue will never go away). The 2nd time was this winter when she went to the hospital with her heartbeat at 270 BPM and it`s amazing that she`s still alive today considering how close she was to dying. I can pretty much guarantee that in places where they don`t have to care about the cost, the doctors would`ve treated her without waiting that long.
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Male 2,516
@auburnjunkie, to you the only "unbiased" sources are the ones that support your statements.

I`m guessing they paid all those people to appear to receive treatment in Mexico?
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Male 2,516
@5Cats: No, I do not have extra insurance other than the one provided by the provincial government.

I`m not dancing around the issue of wait times, I`m outright telling you it`s not that bad. My wife had to get an MRI in Alberta, they told her a week, they attended her in a week. We`ve gone to clinics in Vancouver several times and waited no longer than 30 min for check-ups.

Not bad for an MRI. It must be nice being so rich you don`t care that other people need treatment more urgently than you do.

Also, as I already posted before, the instances of the rich going south for treatment, you can count them with your hands and have fingers left.

I guess it`s ok for you that hundreds of thousands of people die in the US for refusal of medical treatment, just so the rich in Canada can have access to quick medical treatment.
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Male 10,339
@Jendrian: You link is to a CBS news story. Invalid.

Cite independent, unbiased studies as 5cats has done, or you lose sir.
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Male 2,516
lol, US health care is so bad they`re going to Mexico for treatment.
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Male 37,778
Longwoods

@jendrian: the fact remains that Canadians STILL have to buy insurance to get `decent` medical and dental coverage. Even you can`t deny that: you have insurance, right?
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Male 37,778
[quote]For instance, Japan and the United States have 35.3 and 19.5 MRI units per million population, respectively, whereas Canada has only 4.6. (Stein 2005).[/quote]
[quote]The wait times for the most elective category varied from 28 days to three years,[/quote]
Will link the report next post.

@jendrian, you dance around the issue, but the fact is: poor Manitobans wait a LONG time for basic medical services. Rich ones drive to North Dakota which has 3X as many MRIs as Manitoba, despite having half the population.
There is a border town that has 80% Canadian customers for it`s private MRI company.

So the terrible wait lists would be even worse if cross-border medical treatments were unavailable!

The poor wait in pain and the rich go south, HOW is that `better`?
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Male 10,339
"Yes those are all clips by Michael Moore`s Sicko, I make no apology about that."

Then they are fake.
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Male 4,395
"Those of us who watch Fox News and listen to Rush Limbaugh have known all this for 2 years."

All this does is make you uber-partisan. Hearing one side of a story by people pushing a partisan agenda is not getting all the facts.
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Male 2,516
reality check for 5Cats: sure the ones that got the MRI got it lightning fast compared to the 5,490 people per month who got a scan in Manitoba within 3 months of wait.

Yeah I guess poor people don`t matter.
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Male 2,516
Also according to Reuters, it`s not "only open to presidents and magistrates", it is in fact the major hospital of Cuba, where obviously they treat the higher officials of the country, but not exclusively.
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Male 37,778
@Jendrian: Reality Check this is the Manitoba Government`s OWN DATA! 12 WEEKS or longer to get an MRI.

Do you know how many MRI machines are in Minot North Dakota? 4!!! Wait time: 2 hours.
MINOT!!!
Yeah, Canada`s healthcare is soooo good...
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Male 2,516
@5Cats: Also banned in Cuba: jeans. Just saying
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Male 37,778
LOLZ! @jendrain! OMG That is so funny!

[quote]Yes those are all clips by Michael Moore`s Sicko[/quote]

Your sarcasm is absolutely amazing!
Wait, what? NOT sarcasm? You really believe it?
You O KNOW that "Sicko" is a work of fiction, right? That it`s banned in Cuba because that `wonderful hospital` they show is NOT open to the public but is for Politicians Only?
That the list of "factual errors" in Sicko would take several pages of IAB posts?

idk what`s FUNNIER: You being sarcastic or you swallowing that kool-aid... dear Heaven!
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Male 2,516
@5Cats: It`s not perfect, but it`s better than no treatment ;-)
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Male 2,516
@auburnjunky; oh you mean those few cases you can count with one hand and still have fingers left?

Zeus forbid you have to wait 10 min for treatment, because you are so so so important
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Male 37,778
[quote]auburnjunky...some of that money was Bush`s Policys[/quote]
@drworm2002: And some of the wars still going on are Obama`s fault too. Gitmo still open, Afghanistan still rages, new countries invaded...

FYI Everyone: Canada`s helthcare system is BAD! Sure, catastrophic events are covered, that part is good! But you still have to buy: Dental Insurance AND Health Insurance to get anything better than the basic, dead minimum assistance, or you`ll end up paying for it yourself! Or travel to the USA to get it!

Or you can wait 3 YEARS for surgery... exaggeration? Not even close.
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Male 2,516
Waiting lines from the "pooty" health care in Canada

Something tells me you`ve never been to Canada? I`ve gone to the clinics and hospitals here, and never waited longer than an hour. Sure there`s problems, but it`s nothing like Rush Limbaugh and Fox news has told OldOllie.

NHS in the UK

Health care in France

Yeah, it seems like big trouble over here and there. Yes those are all clips by Michael Moore`s Sicko, I make no apology about that.
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Male 2,384
@auburnjunkie: AMEN, people are complaining about the deficit but GOD FORBID we`d cut anything from the war budget
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Male 1,010
Forget the whole "Europe/Canada vs US" healthcare debate, because it`s not what it`s about. Nobody wins. It`s as simple as perception of freedom.

In short terms, a European considers guaranteed healthcare for everyone to be "freedom" but Americans see no freedom in that. On the contrary, they believe that forcing people to buy healthcare, or anything, sucks. They see it as someone is trying to sell them a bag of poo, and it stinks too. It`s just that. Perception of freedom. It`s why we have Europe and the US, so the people can live wherever they like. Which is good to.
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Male 662
auburnjunky...some of that money was Bush`s Policys
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Male 15,832
[quote]Boy, I`m glad I live in Canada.[/quote]
Yeah, I`m glad you do, too, but you obviously haven`t thought this through. It we adopt a Canadian-style government health care system, where are you going to go to keep from dying on a waiting list?

The next time you`re on our side of the border, stop by ANY hospital and count the Canadian license plates in the parking lot. If we go to a socialist health care system, these people are going to die.
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Male 15,832
If this is news to you, you shouldn`t be allowed to run loose in Wal-mart let alone vote.

Those of us who watch Fox News and listen to Rush Limbaugh have known all this for 2 years.
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Male 10,339
"If they can find a way to successfully fund healthcare for every single one of their citizens, why can`t you?"

NOT SUCCESSFUL!

Europe is going bankrupt. One of the reasons is government funded healthcare.

Canada`s healthcare is so pooty, that for major treatments, people come here!

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Male 2,516
I have two words for this guy:

Europe & Canada.

If they can find a way to successfully fund healthcare for every single one of their citizens, why can`t you? Looks to me like this guy`s just look for excuses.
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Male 10,339
"until republicans can own up to their two wars costing over 3 trillion dollars in 10 years they have NOTHING to say here or about gov spending."

Obama has wasted 4 trillion in 3 years.

Your argument is invalid.
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Male 18
Ok I live in Canada, and I do have to say free health care really is fantastic. But I do not think that bringing free health to the US at this time, where everyone is feeling the affects of recession is the best idea. I think your government should be focusing more on trying to get that fixed before introducing free health care issue.
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Male 2,345
until republicans can own up to their two wars costing over 3 trillion dollars in 10 years they have NOTHING to say here or about gov spending.

we got nothing out of those wars but more debt and a global meltdown.

GOP you can sit down now and stfu.

no seriously, 3 trillion dollars. stfu.
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Male 10,339
Commerce clause says you can`t force people to make a purchase. The health care plan does just that.
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Female 1,803
Why would the mandate for health care be unconstitutional when we already are mandated to fund social security, unemployment insurance and medicare programs out of our paycheck? Same thing. People just take this stuff for granted and don`t realize it`s all the same kind of laws.

Plus, the guy who wrote the book the video is based on is Koch Bros affiliated so I wouldn`t believe anything in it. the GOP can`t run their own campaigns without going into the red, why would I trust them with MY money?
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Male 10,339
"this will energize the left in this country and be the cause de Jure that may push Obama over the finish line in November."

No. It will make Obama unelectable. Who wants a president who wants to make laws that are unconstitutional?
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Male 37,778
vv @mcbooze: lolz! You should talk! Thinking the deficit is HALF of what the White House says it is!

This is informative, but probably too cerebral for the typical IABer. But yes, Obama promised to both cut AND expand without costing ANY more money OR reducing services! Amazing! Also: impossible.
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Male 186
It`s all moot anyway. Hears how I think it`s going to play out; The Supreme Court will find the individual mandate unconstitutional (as they should),this will energize the left in this country and be the cause de Jure that may push Obama over the finish line in November. He`ll have the senate but not the house making the congressional races in 2014 the battle royal.
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Male 646
Maybe the moderators aren`t informed enough to be putting up vids about economics or the health care bill.
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Male 1,526
His blue sketches were not even close to what he ended up drawing. He might as well have just drawn boxes for where to draw.
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Male 4,746
Boy, I`m glad I live in Canada.
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Male 1,010
I guess they are taking the money from whoever made this video. Usually, that`s why they are made.
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Male 3
Link: Health Care Bill: Double Counting Doubles Crisis [Rate Link] - More scary government accounting shenanigans in the Health Care Bill.
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