Rockin' in the free world since 2005.

[Total: 23    Average: 2.9/5]
78 Comments - View/Add
Hits: 5882
Rating: 2.9
Category:
Date: 04/15/12 05:00 AM

78 Responses to Health Care Bill: Double Counting Doubles Crisis

  1. Profile photo of ozzymandiaas
    ozzymandiaas Male 30-39
    3 posts
    April 14, 2012 at 3:13 pm
    Link: Health Care Bill: Double Counting Doubles Crisis - More scary government accounting shenanigans in the Health Care Bill.
  2. Profile photo of Student_Law
    Student_Law Male 30-39
    1010 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 5:36 am
    I guess they are taking the money from whoever made this video. Usually, that`s why they are made.
  3. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 5:49 am
    Boy, I`m glad I live in Canada.
  4. Profile photo of Ajikan
    Ajikan Male 18-29
    1526 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 6:50 am
    His blue sketches were not even close to what he ended up drawing. He might as well have just drawn boxes for where to draw.
  5. Profile photo of mcboozerilla
    mcboozerilla Male 30-39
    646 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 7:05 am
    Maybe the moderators aren`t informed enough to be putting up vids about economics or the health care bill.
  6. Profile photo of ChrisP12
    ChrisP12 Male 40-49
    186 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 7:59 am
    It`s all moot anyway. Hears how I think it`s going to play out; The Supreme Court will find the individual mandate unconstitutional (as they should),this will energize the left in this country and be the cause de Jure that may push Obama over the finish line in November. He`ll have the senate but not the house making the congressional races in 2014 the battle royal.
  7. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31799 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 8:08 am
    vv @mcbooze: lolz! You should talk! Thinking the deficit is HALF of what the White House says it is!

    This is informative, but probably too cerebral for the typical IABer. But yes, Obama promised to both cut AND expand without costing ANY more money OR reducing services! Amazing! Also: impossible.
  8. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 9:01 am
    "this will energize the left in this country and be the cause de Jure that may push Obama over the finish line in November."

    No. It will make Obama unelectable. Who wants a president who wants to make laws that are unconstitutional?
  9. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 10:05 am
    Why would the mandate for health care be unconstitutional when we already are mandated to fund social security, unemployment insurance and medicare programs out of our paycheck? Same thing. People just take this stuff for granted and don`t realize it`s all the same kind of laws.

    Plus, the guy who wrote the book the video is based on is Koch Bros affiliated so I wouldn`t believe anything in it. the GOP can`t run their own campaigns without going into the red, why would I trust them with MY money?
  10. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 10:07 am
    Commerce clause says you can`t force people to make a purchase. The health care plan does just that.
  11. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2346 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 10:37 am
    until republicans can own up to their two wars costing over 3 trillion dollars in 10 years they have NOTHING to say here or about gov spending.

    we got nothing out of those wars but more debt and a global meltdown.

    GOP you can sit down now and stfu.

    no seriously, 3 trillion dollars. stfu.
  12. Profile photo of Paot666
    Paot666 Male 18-29
    18 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 10:49 am
    Ok I live in Canada, and I do have to say free health care really is fantastic. But I do not think that bringing free health to the US at this time, where everyone is feeling the affects of recession is the best idea. I think your government should be focusing more on trying to get that fixed before introducing free health care issue.
  13. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 11:09 am
    "until republicans can own up to their two wars costing over 3 trillion dollars in 10 years they have NOTHING to say here or about gov spending."

    Obama has wasted 4 trillion in 3 years.

    Your argument is invalid.
  14. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 12:02 pm
    I have two words for this guy:

    Europe & Canada.

    If they can find a way to successfully fund healthcare for every single one of their citizens, why can`t you? Looks to me like this guy`s just look for excuses.
  15. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 12:28 pm
    "If they can find a way to successfully fund healthcare for every single one of their citizens, why can`t you?"

    NOT SUCCESSFUL!

    Europe is going bankrupt. One of the reasons is government funded healthcare.

    Canada`s healthcare is so pooty, that for major treatments, people come here!

  16. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 12:37 pm
    If this is news to you, you shouldn`t be allowed to run loose in Wal-mart let alone vote.

    Those of us who watch Fox News and listen to Rush Limbaugh have known all this for 2 years.
  17. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 12:52 pm
    Boy, I`m glad I live in Canada.
    Yeah, I`m glad you do, too, but you obviously haven`t thought this through. It we adopt a Canadian-style government health care system, where are you going to go to keep from dying on a waiting list?

    The next time you`re on our side of the border, stop by ANY hospital and count the Canadian license plates in the parking lot. If we go to a socialist health care system, these people are going to die.
  18. Profile photo of drworm2002
    drworm2002 Male 30-39
    662 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 1:15 pm
    auburnjunky...some of that money was Bush`s Policys
  19. Profile photo of Student_Law
    Student_Law Male 30-39
    1010 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 1:17 pm
    Forget the whole "Europe/Canada vs US" healthcare debate, because it`s not what it`s about. Nobody wins. It`s as simple as perception of freedom.

    In short terms, a European considers guaranteed healthcare for everyone to be "freedom" but Americans see no freedom in that. On the contrary, they believe that forcing people to buy healthcare, or anything, sucks. They see it as someone is trying to sell them a bag of poo, and it stinks too. It`s just that. Perception of freedom. It`s why we have Europe and the US, so the people can live wherever they like. Which is good to.
  20. Profile photo of ledzeppeloyd
    ledzeppeloyd Male 18-29
    2385 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 1:28 pm
    @auburnjunkie: AMEN, people are complaining about the deficit but GOD FORBID we`d cut anything from the war budget
  21. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 1:59 pm
    Waiting lines from the "pooty" health care in Canada

    Something tells me you`ve never been to Canada? I`ve gone to the clinics and hospitals here, and never waited longer than an hour. Sure there`s problems, but it`s nothing like Rush Limbaugh and Fox news has told OldOllie.

    NHS in the UK

    Health care in France

    Yeah, it seems like big trouble over here and there. Yes those are all clips by Michael Moore`s Sicko, I make no apology about that.
  22. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31799 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 2:10 pm
    auburnjunky...some of that money was Bush`s Policys
    @drworm2002: And some of the wars still going on are Obama`s fault too. Gitmo still open, Afghanistan still rages, new countries invaded...

    FYI Everyone: Canada`s helthcare system is BAD! Sure, catastrophic events are covered, that part is good! But you still have to buy: Dental Insurance AND Health Insurance to get anything better than the basic, dead minimum assistance, or you`ll end up paying for it yourself! Or travel to the USA to get it!

    Or you can wait 3 YEARS for surgery... exaggeration? Not even close.
  23. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 2:11 pm
    @auburnjunky; oh you mean those few cases you can count with one hand and still have fingers left?

    Zeus forbid you have to wait 10 min for treatment, because you are so so so important
  24. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 2:12 pm
    @5Cats: It`s not perfect, but it`s better than no treatment ;-)
  25. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31799 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 2:14 pm
    LOLZ! @jendrain! OMG That is so funny!

    Yes those are all clips by Michael Moore`s Sicko

    Your sarcasm is absolutely amazing!
    Wait, what? NOT sarcasm? You really believe it?
    You O KNOW that "Sicko" is a work of fiction, right? That it`s banned in Cuba because that `wonderful hospital` they show is NOT open to the public but is for Politicians Only?
    That the list of "factual errors" in Sicko would take several pages of IAB posts?

    idk what`s FUNNIER: You being sarcastic or you swallowing that kool-aid... dear Heaven!
  26. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 2:17 pm
    @5Cats: Also banned in Cuba: jeans. Just saying
  27. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31799 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 2:20 pm
    @Jendrian: Reality Check this is the Manitoba Government`s OWN DATA! 12 WEEKS or longer to get an MRI.

    Do you know how many MRI machines are in Minot North Dakota? 4!!! Wait time: 2 hours.
    MINOT!!!
    Yeah, Canada`s healthcare is soooo good...
  28. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 2:21 pm
    Also according to Reuters, it`s not "only open to presidents and magistrates", it is in fact the major hospital of Cuba, where obviously they treat the higher officials of the country, but not exclusively.
  29. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 2:26 pm
    reality check for 5Cats: sure the ones that got the MRI got it lightning fast compared to the 5,490 people per month who got a scan in Manitoba within 3 months of wait.

    Yeah I guess poor people don`t matter.
  30. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3876 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 2:28 pm
    "Those of us who watch Fox News and listen to Rush Limbaugh have known all this for 2 years."

    All this does is make you uber-partisan. Hearing one side of a story by people pushing a partisan agenda is not getting all the facts.
  31. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 2:41 pm
    "Yes those are all clips by Michael Moore`s Sicko, I make no apology about that."

    Then they are fake.
  32. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31799 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 2:47 pm
    For instance, Japan and the United States have 35.3 and 19.5 MRI units per million population, respectively, whereas Canada has only 4.6. (Stein 2005).
    The wait times for the most elective category varied from 28 days to three years,
    Will link the report next post.

    @jendrian, you dance around the issue, but the fact is: poor Manitobans wait a LONG time for basic medical services. Rich ones drive to North Dakota which has 3X as many MRIs as Manitoba, despite having half the population.
    There is a border town that has 80% Canadian customers for it`s private MRI company.

    So the terrible wait lists would be even worse if cross-border medical treatments were unavailable!

    The poor wait in pain and the rich go south, HOW is that `better`?
  33. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31799 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 2:50 pm
    Longwoods

    @jendrian: the fact remains that Canadians STILL have to buy insurance to get `decent` medical and dental coverage. Even you can`t deny that: you have insurance, right?
  34. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 2:54 pm
    lol, US health care is so bad they`re going to Mexico for treatment.
  35. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 3:03 pm
    @Jendrian: You link is to a CBS news story. Invalid.

    Cite independent, unbiased studies as 5cats has done, or you lose sir.
  36. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 3:06 pm
    @5Cats: No, I do not have extra insurance other than the one provided by the provincial government.

    I`m not dancing around the issue of wait times, I`m outright telling you it`s not that bad. My wife had to get an MRI in Alberta, they told her a week, they attended her in a week. We`ve gone to clinics in Vancouver several times and waited no longer than 30 min for check-ups.

    Not bad for an MRI. It must be nice being so rich you don`t care that other people need treatment more urgently than you do.

    Also, as I already posted before, the instances of the rich going south for treatment, you can count them with your hands and have fingers left.

    I guess it`s ok for you that hundreds of thousands of people die in the US for refusal of medical treatment, just so the rich in Canada can have access to quick medical treatment.
  37. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 3:07 pm
    @auburnjunkie, to you the only "unbiased" sources are the ones that support your statements.

    I`m guessing they paid all those people to appear to receive treatment in Mexico?
  38. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 3:17 pm
    "The poor wait in pain and the rich go south, HOW is that `better`?"

    At least the poor are able to get treatment without being denied or going into debt. There`s been 2 times in my lifetime where my mom almost died because she couldn`t afford treatment. Both times she waited so long until she could hardly function before going to the hospital, and both times she ended up having further complications that cost even more because of waiting so long. The first time she had to file for bankruptcy, luckily the second time wasn`t as expensive (but she needs a follow up surgery that she can`t afford or else the issue will never go away). The 2nd time was this winter when she went to the hospital with her heartbeat at 270 BPM and it`s amazing that she`s still alive today considering how close she was to dying. I can pretty much guarantee that in places where they don`t have to care about the cost, the doctors would`ve treated her without waiting that long.
  39. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 3:20 pm
    All this does is make you uber-partisan.
    If knowing facts makes one "uber-partisan," I guess I`m guilty.

    So tell me, what does being a gullible, closed-minded, left-wing-media-consuming, Kool-ade-drinking liberal ignoramus make you?
  40. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31799 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 3:21 pm
    hundreds of thousands of people die in the US for refusal of medical treatment
    Yeah, your credibility is slipping there cousin...

    iirc: Grafton ND (pop: 4,400) has an MRI company. It does about 4,000 MRI per year. About 80% is Canadians, thats... 3000 Cross-Border visits! From ONE SMALL COMPANY.
    Say, how many fingers DO you have?

    (iirc: which town it is, not the company or the numbers, those are accurate).

    Not bad for an MRI. It must be nice being so rich you don`t care that other people need treatment more urgently than you do.

    That makes ZERO sense! If the `rich` go south, the `poor` get care faster! There`s no one `waiting` for months in the USA, so a Canuk going to Fargo delays... no one! AND speeds up Canada`s system. FFS.
  41. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 3:27 pm
    you`re going to have to show some evidence of that, wikipedia cites sources, I`ve been looking for a little while for this fantastic Grafton company you talk about, which rich canadians are happy to pay for, but alas no luck.

    Also, LilianDulci`s account completely disagrees with your last statement.
  42. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 3:33 pm
    @5Cats: My number was spot on, I had just guessed it was 100 thousand people, turns out I was right.
  43. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 3:42 pm
    lol, US health care is so bad they`re going to Mexico for treatment.
    This is true. The Mexican health care industry is subject to MUCH LESS regulation than the US health care industry, and consequently many treatments are much less expensive.

    So, are you saying that imposing even more government control than we already have is going to make things more like Mexico where they have almost no government control? The fact is, many Americans are going to Mexico and Costa Rica for medical treatment because they have less regulated health care industries, and subsequently better quality care for the money. In fact, many US insurance companies will pay for your airfare to Costa Rica, put you up in a 4-star hotel, and waive your deductible if you go there for treatment. WE ought to be trying to be MORE like them, not less.

    Check it out. http://medicalretreatabroad.com/
  44. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 3:45 pm
    Finally found something : seems more like the DMS Imaging Centre of Grafton isn`t getting enough US patients that can afford its treatment, so -in the language of the magazine that published this- the centre is just "trolling" Manitoba patients to go hire their services.
  45. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 3:51 pm
    @OldOllie: Nope, what I`m saying is that if Canada, Mexico and Europe can manage to get decent medical care for *all* of their citizens, so can the US.

    By the way, I lived in Mexico for 25 years, I had 2 kinds of government health care: military (because of my dad) which covered literally everything, and social security.

    Mexican health care is a whole other story, there are several different kinds of health care: military, state employer social, national social and private (partial and full). Costs vary (including the socialized health care has a cost) from 20 MXN/mo (less than 2 dollars) for basic treatment to thousands of dollars a month for full private care.

    There is regulation but our government doesn`t seem as moved by medical and insurance companies as in the US, that`s why we have very cheap treatment.
  46. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31799 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 5:18 pm
    Well @jendrian, I give you high marks for: a)trying and b) being polite about it! Both are rare at IAB!

    Fist off: "deaths deemed preventable" is NOT the same as "people who die because they have no medical care" ok? Even France has 65/100K and they`re the best in the world! Yes the USA has a higher rate, combined with a HUGE population (3rd in the world eh?) to make it sound bad.

    Second: 1997. Living here, I know for a fact that company was set up, very close to the border, expressly because we had 3 (THREE!) MRI machines in all of Manitoba at that time. ND, at the time, had 7, plus this one.
    15 years ago, and they`re still in business! Still have 80% Canadian clients. The title of the article and what the article says are completely different things, eh?

    Actually, you`ve supported what I`ve been saying, thx!
  47. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 5:26 pm
    Nope, what I`m saying is that if Canada, Mexico and Europe can manage to get decent medical care for *all* of their citizens, so can the US.
    Of course, the operative word in the above is "if." IF they could, you would have a point. The problem is, they can`t. People are going without care, and/or the systems are going broke.

    If you want a fair comparison between government-regulated health care and free-market health care, go out and compare the prices of cataract surgery ($3000-5000 per eye) which is paid for by a 3rd party (insurance, Medicare, or Medicaid) vs. lasik vision correction ($700-1100 per eye) which is paid for by the patient.
  48. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 5:37 pm
    @5Cats: I fail to see the difference between: "experts think death could`ve been prevented with treatment" (deaths deemed preventable) and "people who definitely died because they lacked the treatment".

    I agree though that the DMS Imaging Centre was put there specifically to meet demand from Manitoba, demand they apparently created (according to the only article I could find).

    Point remains, it`s not like the canadian system is perfect, it could be (much) better, same as the NHS in England and the several mexican versions of it, as long as there`s people dying there`s room for improvement.

    The point is that even then, it`s not as bad as you try to make it seem, and the fact that the US "exports sick people" to other countries for treatment is an indictment of how much better you have it in Canada, even if for MRIs in Manitoba you may need to wait long.

    Also, thanks for not going childish on me.
  49. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 5:39 pm
    @OldOllie, we agree then: if the US made an effort to try and find out how other countries have managed universal health care, you could probably implement it.
  50. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31799 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 6:09 pm
    Also, thanks for not going childish on me.
    You`re welcome. I notice @OldOllie`s been polite as well! Good manners often brings the same in response.

    Only the title of that article suggests they "drummed up demand". Manitobans were already driving to Fargo in swarms, Grafton is almost 2 hours closer.

    The NDP vowed to "put them out of business" by makihng our wait times lower. They haven`t, our wait times are shorter now BUT even the NDP admits that if many patients didn`t travel to North Dakota for MRIs it would be longer!

    This is only one example, MRIs. Literally every test or procedure you can imagine has long wait times in Canada. AND you`re likely to get "extra billed" for lots of them, not free!

    I said right off that if you have a BIG medical problem, it`s good to be Canadian. But otherwise...
  51. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25408 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 6:22 pm
    Cool drawing...
  52. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 6:28 pm
    5Cats, like I said at the beginning: some treatment > no treatment always
  53. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31799 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 6:51 pm
    @Jendrian: My joke: (which I made up myself but it`s not really `origional`)

    A Canadian man goes to the doctor. The doctor runs some tests and says:
    D: I have good news and bad news. Which do you want to hear first?
    M: Hit me with the bad news.
    D: You have cancer and only 3 months to live, tops!
    M: OMG! That`s terrible! What possible good news could there be after hearing that?
    D: Well, there`s a simple operation to cure you, it`s 99% effective and since you`re Canadian, it`s absolutely free!
    M: WOW! That`s terrific! How soon can I get the operation?
    (doctor consults his schedual)
    D: You`re in luck! I have an opening in early December!
    (lolz!)
  54. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 8:23 pm
    @OldOllie, we agree then: if the US made an effort to try and find out how other countries have managed universal health care, you could probably implement it.
    jendrian, please accept my humble apologies for not making myself more clear. We have watched other countries implement universal health care, and we have watched it fail miserably despite the pathetic denials of those poor bastards whose health care systems are now totally FUBAR.

    Here are some horror stories from the UK. There are probably just as many from any other country that has been foolish enough to destroy their health care system by handing it over to a "people`s committee."

    Click here for a list of Google search results. http://tinyurl.com/7rbgjbv

    After clicking each link, search the page (<Ctrl>F) for the term "Great Moments" and read the post immediately following.
  55. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 8:47 pm
    @OldOllie: wow, I guess because a few things go wrong here and there the whole system is rubbish and is "FUBAR" and has failed miserably.

    Do I need to quote life expectancies to you? Do I really need to link you to the numerous videos of people being drugged up and kicked out of hospitals in the US because of lack of insurance? Do I need to have you read LillianDulci`s post about her mom filing bankruptcy for treatment?

    For every horror story you can encounter of "the horrors of socialized medicine", I can find you a good 10 000 beautiful stories where it has saved lives.

    In fact, according to reuters, had the US implemented socialized medicine at some point in the past 3 years, I could quote you 303 000 beautiful stories of it succeeding
  56. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31799 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 9:00 pm
    In fact, according to reuters, had the US implemented socialized medicine at some point in the past 3 years, I could quote you 303 000 beautiful stories of it succeeding
    @jendrian: You`ve misunderstood the statistics involved in your example.
    Please don`t get mad as I explain. Also, there`s actual math wizards at IAB who know more then I do, but even I know this:

    If as you suggest 300,00 lives `would be saved` had the the USA implimented socialized medicine 3 years ago, their `fail rate` would be ZERO!
    However, France`s `fail rate` is 65/100K of population, best in the world!
    Therefor, your expectations are... optimistic? That`s a nice word, right?

    This `fail rate` also doesn`t take into account a TON of other variables, so it`s a "loose guide" at best, eh?
  57. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 9:23 pm
    @5Cats: I`m just going to assume your reading comprehension skills failed you this time, as quoting reuters:

    If the U.S. health care system performed as well as those of those top three countries, there would be 101,000 fewer deaths in the United States per year, according to researchers writing in the journal Health Affairs.

    That is, if the US health-care performed with the rates France and/or the UK operate with for 3 years, there would be 101 000 fewer deaths per year.

    Namely, not a rate of zero, and precisely what my comment was trying to express (303 000 success stories of socialized health care).
  58. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31799 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 9:44 pm
    Oooo, I thought you were extrapolating your 100K die from before...
    My bad!

    However: it`s still a tremendously flawed item. Pseudo-science; picking & choosing statistics will get you any result you like! Ignoring dozens of other variables will get the same pseudo-results also.
  59. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 9:45 pm
    Here`s the whole article if anyone`s interested, it`s a pretty interesting read. The actual number quoted in the article is "75 000 to 101 000" of preventable deaths in the US.

    In the words of senior vice-president of the Commonwealth fund Cathy Schoen:

    [quote">The fact that other countries are reducing these preventable deaths more rapidly, yet spending far less, indicates that policy, goals and efforts to improve health systems make a difference.[/quote">.

    Read that OldOllie? It`s not a miserable failure, it`s not FUBAR, it`s actually working, in spite of the inevitable mistakes.
  60. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 9:46 pm
    lol @5Cats, ignoring the fact that the people that did the study did not ignore all those variables.
  61. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 9:48 pm

    Also, malpractice lawsuits with unlimited damage awards force doctors to practice "defensive medicine" so if they ever get a bad result, even if it`s through no fault of their own, they can say in court "I did EVERYTHING I possibly could have." It used to be that if you sprained your ankle, you put some ice on it, took some aspirin, and wrapped it up in an Ace bandage. Now people go the emergency room and get an MRI. Why, because when you sprain your ankle, there`s about a 1 in a million chance that you develop a blood clot that could travel to your heart. Why should a doctor or a hospital risk a $multimillion lawsuit when they can actually make money by billing the insurance company $2000-3000 for the MRI?
  62. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 9:48 pm
    Health insurance is WAY too expensive. One reason is that the government lets insurance companies and lobbyists write minimum requirements for policies which drive up the cost to the point that many can`t afford it. Then government prohibits the sale of health insurance across state lines, so you`re forced to pay for a bunch of crap that you don`t want. For instance, free or very low-cost office visits encourages people to go to the doctor for colds, hangnails, sunburns, headaches, bellyaches, etc., whereas if they had to pay $50 out-of-pocket, they would probably stay home. For some reason, paying $50 for an office visit is unacceptable, but having your employer pay $1000/mo for your insurance so you can go to the doctor whenever you want for $5 is just fine. (cont.)
  63. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 9:54 pm
    @OldOllie, I don`t know what the hell you`re doing then, so in your view no type of health care works? That`s all I could gather from your posts.
  64. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 9:56 pm
    @jendrian I`m not defending the US healthcare system. In fact, it`s a total clusterdrat. The problem, though is not a lack of government intervention. It`s the government that has it all screwed up. For instance, in WWII FDR instituted wage and price controls, which meant that for companies to be able to retain good employees, they could not give them raises. Then someone came up with the idea of employer-paid health insurance which totally screwed up the market ever since. Now if your employer doesn`t provide health insurance, your well and truly hosed, because the government pretty much killed that market. Also, read on...
  65. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 9:58 pm
    No, no type of GOVERNMENT health care works. The more government intervention you have in the market, the worse it gets till you get complete government control in which case it fails completely. Just get the government the hell out of health care altogether.
  66. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 10:03 pm
    @OldOllie: Funny, the study I linked to concluded the diametric opposite of your point:

    The fact that other countries are reducing these preventable deaths more rapidly, yet spending far less, indicates that policy, goals and efforts to improve health systems make a difference.
  67. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 10:22 pm
    According to the WHO (pages 15 and 18, for graphs if you`re lazy) socialized health care seems to work.
  68. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 11:02 pm
    socialized health care seems to work.
    Any perpetual motion machine seems to work...till it stops. ALL government-run health care systems are doomed to failure, and most of them are showing telltale signs of it now. The ONLY reason Canada`s system "seems to work" is they have the US health care system to fall back on when their system can`t provide lifesaving treatments. Once we adopt a similar system to theirs, they will have no place to go when their NHS puts them on a 6-month waiting list for cancer surgery. They will simply have to go home, take a pain pill, and die.
  69. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 15, 2012 at 11:12 pm
    I give up OldOllie, no amount of studies or evidence will show you countries with socialized health care are not "doomed to fail".

    And by the way, if socialized health care is like a perpetual motion machine, then all it needs is a small kick every number of ticks to keep it running perfect. Where`s the fault in that?
  70. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 16, 2012 at 12:30 am
    "then all it needs is a small kick"

    A small kick in this case, is taking people`s money when they don`t want to give it.
  71. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 16, 2012 at 12:50 am
    @auburnjunky
    Taxes and death are all that`s guaranteed in life.
    Get used to it.
  72. Profile photo of LilyLily
    LilyLily Female 18-29
    90 posts
    April 16, 2012 at 6:36 am
    OldOllie

    What about Australia`s system? Medicare? It words, and we certainly do not fall back on other countries for procedures.

    I`m actually a uni student (and hence not making very much) who requires constant medication, that without I could fall into a life threatening condition. Without Medicare I would actually not have the funds to even buy it, let alone the money for docs appointments or tests! With it, it`s subsidised from some $100 a week (Almost more then my rent!) to around $10.

    Is this on other peoples dime? Yes. But you know what? I will graduate in 3 years and start work and be putting a dratload of taxes back into the system, so I`m going to take it.

    TL;DR it drating works. Magic and miracles yo.
  73. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 16, 2012 at 7:17 am
    So to sum it all up: Americans won`t change to another healthcare system unless it`s perfect, even though they export their sick on neighbouring countries, treat their ERs like a GPs office (I wonder how much that costs you in tax, ollie), and let the HMOs make healthcare artificially expensive.

    Then we usually reach the end of the shrubbery maze when an American inevitably mentions waiting times. What they fail to realize is that most countries with public health care also have a private option (2-tier). For example I recently needed a CT scan and was able to get one in a few days, providing I pay for myself. Also, governments like Japan`s provide incentives for doctors to stay in the public sphere, so the conservative slippery-slope argument about a doctor`s mass exodus to private sector is hogwash.
  74. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 16, 2012 at 7:18 am
    they have the US health care system to fall back on when their system can`t provide lifesaving treatments.
    Source, or conservative clap-trap?
  75. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 16, 2012 at 1:09 pm
    Don`t bother patchgrabber, OldOllie honestly pays attention to Rush Limbaugh, if you try to go back a few posts you`ll see me quoting and linking to both news reporting and scientific research from several countries, but no he`s still sold on the usual false arguments.
  76. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    April 16, 2012 at 11:19 pm

    I`ll be dead. Go f*** yourselves. (And this doesn`t even count Obamacare.)
  77. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 17, 2012 at 12:07 pm
    @OldOllie: that graph just means your government is pretty dumb at administering money. Like I said before, if other governments, less rich (like Morocco) manage, so can the US.
  78. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    April 17, 2012 at 8:12 pm
    @jendrian, it`s kind hard to "administer" money years after someone else had promised to give it away.

Leave a Reply