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Date: 04/24/12 05:50 PM

118 Responses to Can Real Christians Believe in Evolution?

  1. Profile photo of kitteh9lives
    kitteh9lives Female 70 & Over
    8044 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 2:36 pm
    Link: Can Real Christians Believe in Evolution? - Or are these insurmountable doctrinal problems for believers who support the evolution of mankind?
  2. Profile photo of mervviscious
    mervviscious Male 40-49
    1793 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 6:31 pm
    Then I choose science...
  3. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36866 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 6:35 pm

  4. Profile photo of Rick_S
    Rick_S Male 40-49
    3291 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 6:38 pm
    OK, folks. Let`s restate this simple fact, yet again. Evolution does not speak to how life got here, just to what happens to it afterwards. You can believe in the story of Adam an Eve in a literal sense, and believe that evolution has taken over since then. The two are not mutually exclusive.

    The confusion comes in because science believes that life started almost by accident, and that it has evolved from a single celled creature to what we have today. Note that evolution isn`t what started life. Evolution says that life changes over time to better fit it`s environment. If life doesn`t exist, it can`t evolve.

    So, you can be a creationist, who accepts the Word of God, and still accept that evolution happens.
  5. Profile photo of Rick_S
    Rick_S Male 40-49
    3291 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 6:43 pm
    I`ve often wondered about the scientific explanation, myself. As I understand it, life started just one time, and we all evolved out of that one, first, creature. But who`s to say that life didn`t start several times? That life isn`t starting right now? We still have extremes of heat and pressure at the depth of the oceans. We still have bogs that get struck by lightning. Life created today may not life until tomorrow, but isn`t it possible that there is more than one origin of life, from a scientific point of view? Perhaps the insects are one origin, and the rest are another? I know there`s probably evidence that this last statement isn`t the case, but I can`t image that in the 4 billion years Earth has been around that life only got started this one time. It must have happened over and over again, and is probably still happening on a regular basis.
  6. Profile photo of Tekinette
    Tekinette Male 30-39
    273 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 6:51 pm
    I`m not a religious person but I believe religion should be about spirituality, developing your inner life, learning aspects of life such as love, compassion, tolerance, concern for others etc...

    You don`t need to be religious to believe in this but it may help spread those values, at least I believe that was the main idea but it feels like it`s doing the opposite.
  7. Profile photo of Tekinette
    Tekinette Male 30-39
    273 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 7:04 pm
    And to answer the video : A "real" christian shouldn`t even ask himself what he can or cannot believe in. I`d rather be stupid than close-minded.
  8. Profile photo of collegebound
    collegebound Male 18-29
    3745 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 7:42 pm
    "Can Real Christians Believe in Evolution?"

    well we already believe that Adam and Eve came from dirt and a rib bone...i dont see why not...

    i believe in evolution up to a certain extent...i dont believe that humans came from monkeys...to me that is just asinine...
  9. Profile photo of Fancysucksss
    Fancysucksss Male 18-29
    1048 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 7:47 pm
    @tekinette. You said what I believe exactly. I think spirituality and science can go hand in hand with eachother. This will be our next step..I hope
  10. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 7:48 pm
    "i dont believe that humans came from monkeys...to me that is just asinine..."

    Evolution doesn`t say that. It says we have a common ancestor and diverged. If you can watch how monkeys look and act and not see incredible similarities to humans, then you are an incredibly unobservant person. Not to mention the fact that our dna is 98% identical to monkeys.
  11. Profile photo of number1man
    number1man Male 13-17
    240 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 7:56 pm
    Comment of the day to Gerry1of1
    "Tuesday, April 24, 2012 6:35:45 PM


    "
  12. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 7:58 pm
    If you think a "Real Christian" is someone who takes scripture literally, then obviously they cannot.

    However, there are about as many definitions of "Real Christian" as there are Christians.

    Really, this just brings up the old "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

    Tl;dr version:

    F*cking troll.
  13. Profile photo of lawndartsftw
    lawndartsftw Male 40-49
    1811 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 7:58 pm
    Real Christians have no problem with evolution, and they also accept that the Bible is Divinely inspired, understand the various contexts of the Bible, and do not see a conceptual conflict between the Bible and evolution. Of course, that doesnt suit the agendas of some, so they conveniently ignore this and hold up the radical fundamentalist fringe minority as representative of all Christians. But, w/e, I aint even mad...
  14. Profile photo of lawndartsftw
    lawndartsftw Male 40-49
    1811 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 8:00 pm
    Also, obvious trolling is obvious.....
  15. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 8:04 pm
    I don`t believe in creation, nor do I give a dry fap what anyone else believes. What the hell does it matter to you what other people believe? Why are all you liberal atheists so full of hate and venom for people who believe differently from you? Seriously, what`s the f***ing difference?
  16. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 8:07 pm
    I find this video silly. If a Christian wants to believe in evolution, that`s great news to me. This video is obviously designed to convince liberal Christians to abandon their faith, but at the same time they`re making an argument that could push some Christians to be even more hardline.

    Atheists, the problem isn`t Christianity or any of the other main religions. The problem stems from what people do with that religion. As Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
  17. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 8:09 pm
    "i believe in evolution up to a certain extent...i dont believe that humans came from monkeys...to me that is just asinine..."

    Collegebound ought to live up to his name.
  18. Profile photo of ExtraCredit
    ExtraCredit Male 50-59
    451 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 8:21 pm
    Free your mind. Do not believe this convoluted circular logic. What evidence is there that the bible is the divinely inspired word of god? Because it`s what your parents told you, and the book says it`s a sin to not honor thy mother and thy father.

    Self-serving hogwash.
  19. Profile photo of Sigon
    Sigon Male 18-29
    129 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 8:23 pm
    I`m a Christian and I believe wholeheartedly that evolution is the tool by which God created all life....It started and teh Molecular level and extrapolated outwards... what Some christians don`t understand is that the Bible is a collection of stories about people`s faith and beliefs, they are not 100% fact but instead interpretations of how men experienced events in their lives. Christianity cannot simply disprove Science, just like Science cannot disprove God...
  20. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 8:36 pm
    Why are all you liberal atheists so full of hate and venom for people who believe differently from you?
    It`s not because of what they believe, but because of what they do with those beliefs. Like trying to have them taught as fact in public schools. Or use them as excuses for violence and oppression against others. Or to block scientific and societal progress.

    People are free to believe whatever they want. When those beliefs start having an objectively negative impact on the world, others have a right to be upset.
  21. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 8:42 pm
    "Why are all you liberal atheists so full of hate and venom for people who believe differently from you?"

    It is not hate to disagree with someone or their beliefs. Beliefs are very important, beliefs inform our actions, where we come from and how we got here are questions we should try and answer. When the answer is `god did it` we stop looking for the real answer.
  22. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 8:44 pm
    @Rick_S: Scientists have certainly speculated the possibility that there has been more than one abiogenesis event. However, every *known* organism can be traced back to a common ancestor. Every animal, plant, and bacteria that we know about stems from a common source. That`s not to say multiple abiogenesis events are impossible, just that we simply don`t know of any others.

    When you consider that the total weight of all the bacteria that lives underground is estimated to be much higher than the total weight of all life that exists on the surface, we could catalog countless billions of distinct species and probably not have scratched the surface of the total. Somewhere in all those little bacteria might be some with no relation to the rest of us, a "terrestrial alien" of sorts. But it could be a long time before it`s found, if it`s there.
  23. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 8:47 pm
    "Why are all you liberal atheists so full of hate and venom for people who believe differently from you?"

    You`re as much of a troll as the video itself.
  24. Profile photo of thatjimguy
    thatjimguy Male 30-39
    458 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 9:10 pm
    At BYU (Mormon college), we tackled this. There are certainly two different camps when it comes down to the literalness of it all. But there is (at least with Mormons), an ability to accept both. Science and Mormonism is quite compatible.

    That being said, to answer the very good question of "If you think it`s all metaphor, why be a part of it?"

    Because some people do need hope for something better. It is hard to follow the good road alone. It can be used as a tool for light as well as darkness, but I see no reason to blame the tool as I would the wielder of the tool. It is a community center to promote well being and love. (Regardless of what some of you may believe by the bad examples on TV and the net you insist are exact copies of all of us)

    I invite you all to get on the net and contact a Missionary and come to our church, if anything, just to see what it is for yourself first hand and not by anyone elses account.
  25. Profile photo of lawndartsftw
    lawndartsftw Male 40-49
    1811 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 9:21 pm
    ...the Bible has more than metaphor, if memory serves my correctly. Just sayin`....
  26. Profile photo of lawndartsftw
    lawndartsftw Male 40-49
    1811 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 9:29 pm
    "They should be openly mocked. They should be treated with contempt in public" - Richard Dawkins, referring to Christians. If you follow this man`s advice, and act on this, how are you bringing about a better society, and how can you expect anyone who doesnt think like you to listen to anything you have to say ?? Openness and dialogue seem to be a more effective, and civil, strategy, rather than the arrogance suggested by Mr. Dawkins, imo.....
  27. Profile photo of Chaosmaster
    Chaosmaster Male 30-39
    234 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 9:34 pm
    First, grouping all Christians together is a prejudice as grouping all blacks together is racist.

    Second, this is the all or nothing argument. If you believe in evolution, you must believe that humans evolved from monkeys. If you don`t believe that humans evolved from monkeys then you don`t believe in evolution.
  28. Profile photo of Giardia
    Giardia Male 30-39
    37 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 9:49 pm
    It seems simple to me. GOD created the universe, intending on perfection. EVIL GOD sneaking about in the background screws up GOD`s creation by throwing entropy into the mix.

    Hilarity ensues. Along with flame comments in 3, 2, 1.

    Trying to have a rational discussion about religion or politics is like trying to force water and oxygen to combine in an orderly and non-explosive fashion.
  29. Profile photo of eddy666
    eddy666 Male 30-39
    523 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 10:03 pm
    I`m going to start keeping count of religious flame-baiting articles on this site. I`ll be nice and start with this one: That`s 1.
  30. Profile photo of Stonardsftw
    Stonardsftw Male 18-29
    321 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 10:06 pm
    @Chaosmaster

    Except humans didn`t evolve from monkeys. They evolved from creatures more comparable to monkeys than humans, but not monkeys.
  31. Profile photo of bridog6996
    bridog6996 Male 18-29
    571 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 10:32 pm
    We didn`t evolve from monkeys. That`s inaccurate, because it`s only one very small part of the whole story. All life on this planet evolved from extremely basic single-cell organisms.
  32. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3929 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 10:39 pm
    "i believe in evolution up to a certain extent...i dont believe that humans came from monkeys...to me that is just asinine..."

    That is asinine. We didn`t evolve from monkeys. We share a common ancestor with gorillas and chimpanzees. I really hope you are collegebound like your name says because you have a lot to learn.
  33. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 11:22 pm
    I don`t think christians that think about this problem even a little bit can have a symbiosis of the scientific consensus and the religious dogma, for example:
    So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.
    Thinking about this even just a little bit yields Adam, Eve, and consequentially god looking like this:

    Or if we`re to consider that maybe he created man much after, then Adam, Eve and god look like this:

    While there`s nothing really wrong with god looking like that, saying that evolution is god`s tool for our creation is greatly understating the extent of the theory of evolution. Quite frankly, the Ancient Astronaut theory makes more sense (and has more proof) than christianity.
  34. Profile photo of som-tam
    som-tam Male 18-29
    714 posts
    April 24, 2012 at 11:41 pm
    didn`t watch it all but it seems clear that this guy has no real intent to understand the `old` testament. His argument would be ripped to pieces by anyone who has a basic understanding of theology.
    The old testament is more like the collective stories and mythology of a group of people over centuries, it was the only historical record at the time of paul so he took it to be real. if you are christian you can look at this as god, being all knowing, telling paul what to write by using his own understanding of the world (contructivism).
  35. Profile photo of Buiadh
    Buiadh Male 30-39
    6739 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 12:19 am
    Can someone paraphrase this for me please?
  36. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 12:39 am
    "Second, this is the all or nothing argument. If you believe in evolution, you must believe that humans evolved from monkeys. If you don`t believe that humans evolved from monkeys then you don`t believe in evolution."

    I would accept the argument that, if one thinks that evolution claims humans evolved from monkeys, then it doesn`t really matter his opinion on evolution, as he obviously doesn`t understand evolution.

    It`s as silly an argument as the crockoduck.
  37. Profile photo of Buiadh
    Buiadh Male 30-39
    6739 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 12:39 am
    @OldOllie - I`d say you`re the most "full of hate" person on this board. You`re always bilious.
  38. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 12:46 am
    @Buladh: According to the narrator, if liberal christians deny the bible as the literal word of god, then Adam and Eve must be a metaphor, hence also original sin (as it is tied to Adam and Eve), and without original sin there`s no reason to accept jesus as your saviour, etc. In this case, evolution makes sense to believers, but the religion based around the metaphorical bible shouldn`t.

    If they do accept it as the literal word of god, then evolution cannot coexist with their beliefs, as just about everything in the theory of evolution has some stark contradiction in the bible.
  39. Profile photo of Buiadh
    Buiadh Male 30-39
    6739 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 12:52 am
    @Jendrian - Gotcha, thanks!
  40. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 12:54 am
    The only qualifier to be a `Real Christian` is if you`ve asked Jesus Christ to be your personal Lord and Savior. That`s it.

    Anyone else`s interpretation of what a `Real Christian` is, is just their opinion.
  41. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 12:58 am


    I accept Jesus as my lord and saviour. Look at how passionate he is about whatever he was doing right there. Oh Jesus... you are great.
  42. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 1:28 am
    @CrakrJak: I`m sorry I mock you so much, it`s just that the whole "accepting jesus is the only requirement to get into heaven" line is a rather annoying one, because it is the new word for "god" that people use nowadays to escape the arguments against god and the bible.

    Here`s my question to you, and this is from true, honest ignorance from my part regarding christianity: if accepting Jesus as your saviour is the only requirement, then what is the bible? Where does the moral code of christianity lie, if your only requirement to be saved is to believe Jesus died for your sins?

    And finally, and I hope you don`t mind my intrusion, doesn`t it seem awfully convenient to you that the religion, which started with sacrificing 2 lambs/day to be saved, morphed into "all you need to do is believe in Jesus" as means to gain numbers?
  43. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 1:51 am
    jendrian: The moral code of Christianity lay in the New Testament. The Old testament is history, prophecy, the first covenant between man and God.

    "The greatest commandment being, `Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these."

    It`s not easy to live according to them, trust me, I`m no saint. But it`s a lot easier than 613 Jewish laws. Jesus came to simplify the whole mess and to be our sacrifice, to pay for our sins.
  44. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 2:46 am
    See, that`s where I find that the logic doesn`t follow. I`ve heard before that the moral code is in the bible, but the bible is so extensive and there`s a lot of "morals" there that don`t fit the world we live in today, and various parts of the christian moral code of a few hundred years ago would land you in jail today by the civil code of the state you live in.

    In brief, it seems to me more like everyone is just following their own morals, and pairing that up with the story of the bible, of which you seem to think the only mandatory part is the one that says salvation lies in the belief of Jesus.

    Why is it that only that part, of the entire book, is important? Surely other sections of the holy book present other arguments by which one may enter the kingdom of heaven, and other ways in which you can be denied. Why is it that only that one phrase is required?
  45. Profile photo of Samsquanch
    Samsquanch Male 30-39
    792 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 3:56 am
    Wow. Tell that to the hundreds of millions of Catholics.
  46. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 5:19 am
    "So when I meet somebody who claims to be religious, my first impulse is: “I don’t believe you. I don’t believe you until you tell me do you really believe — for example, if they say they are Catholic — do you really believe that when a priest blesses a wafer it turns into the body of Christ? Are you seriously telling me you believe that? Are you seriously saying that wine turns into blood?” Mock them! Ridicule them! In public!
    Don’t fall for the convention that we’re all too polite to talk about religion. Religion is not off the table. Religion is not off limits.
    Religion makes specific claims about the universe which need to be substantiated and need to be challenged and, if necessary, need to be ridiculed with contempt.
    "

    Richard Dawkins at the Rally of Reason. I was surprised it was quite that militant, even with proper context added. The `in public` is delivered with comic timing btw. I agree duff think
  47. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 5:24 am
    I agree duff "thinking" needs to be challenged strongly, but the ridicule and contempt doesn`t sit well.
  48. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 5:28 am
    @samsquanch indeed
  49. Profile photo of Nickel2
    Nickel2 Male 50-59
    5879 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 5:52 am
    If the human race stops sinning (after the example of Adam and Eve), it will cease to exist within 100 years. The creation of human life therefore will have become a pointless exercise. No-one left to pray in churches! Imagine the disappointment of having no-one to sing your praises. It appears therefore that `sin` is pre-programmed into the human race from the very onset. If you do not sin, then Jesus`s life and death will have been a waste of time, and perhaps should not have been started in the first place.
  50. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 6:05 am
    @MattPrince,

    I agree Dawkins was a bit harsh but the point I think he was trying to get across was religion should not be this `sacred cow` (excuse the pun) that cannot be talked about. This idea that all beliefs are equal and should be respected is rediculous. A belief is an acceptance of a claim and claims can be accepted for good and bad reasons. Those reasons, no matter the subject, should be discussed.
  51. Profile photo of DromEd
    DromEd Male 40-49
    1945 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 6:12 am
    Wow. Tiny little human thinks he`s got it all figured out.

    I laugh and grieve at the same time for people like this guy. Ever look up in the sky? The vastness of the universe is beyond staggering. We exist in such a finite state. To think that in that short of a time anybody could be so enlightened so sure of his tiny intellect to utterly dismiss the possibility of a God.

    The argument that why are religions different...why is there war..poverty....why would God let this happen? The intelligent answer is, I don`t know. I don`t presume to know what God knows. So I do what I can. Love the world around me and try to love my brother and forgive those who would do me wrong the best I can.

  52. Profile photo of bacon_pie
    bacon_pie Male 30-39
    3061 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 6:31 am
    I`m a Christian and I believe in evolution to an extent.
  53. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3929 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 6:31 am
    People cherry picking Richard Dawkins comments so they can attack him. Where have I seen that before? Cherry picking quotes so you can attack people?
  54. Profile photo of BoredFrank
    BoredFrank Male 40-49
    2374 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 6:43 am
    Religion is just a crutch for weak-minded silly people too timid or stupid to face a cold hard truth.
  55. Profile photo of artmunki
    artmunki Male 30-39
    176 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 6:45 am
    Evolution, like almost all extant accepted scientific theories*, is not a question of belief; nor does it have anything to do with belief. If you `believe` otherwise, chances are you don`t actually understand the theory properly.

    * except high-end theoretical physics - that`s probably the only field of true science that really does require some question of belief (but not Belief).
  56. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 6:46 am
    @markust

    It is kind of like cherry picking scripture, Everyone talks about Sodom and Gamorrah and how rightious Lot was but it was pointed out to me recently that if you keep reading past where my Sunday school teachers always stopped, Lot gets so drunk he has incestuous sex with his daughters, TWICE.
  57. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33142 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 6:46 am
    *comes in late*
    Why is it that only that part, of the entire book, is important?
    @jendrian: Some argue that only the 4 Gospels are needed, that ALL the writings of Paul are not `required` but simply advice. I suppose Revelations is needed too, or it`s just a warning?
    So: The Torah (Old Testament) is a history now, and Christians who pick & choose passages from it are... suspicious.
    The Gospels tell of Christ`s life & teachings.
    The Letters of Paul are `advice`.

    Since I`m a Deist, ALL that stuff is suspect! I just believe in God the Creator.

    I`ve studied Christianity though, and YES all you need is to accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour AND try to not sin. "Church" is anyplace a few Christians gather, not a big bloody Catherdial.
    & etc.
  58. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 6:54 am
  59. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33142 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 6:59 am
    @MacGovern are you TRYING to get banned again? Oy!
  60. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 7:07 am
    Hey it`s safe for work lol! They could be grooming each other.......
  61. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 7:10 am
    This video is idiotic. Jesus uses metaphors all the time in the new testament. If you explain ANY difficult concept to someone else that is learning the subject for the first time you use metaphors to relate the subject to something they are familiar with. It usually the students that take a statement such as "Y is like X" and convert it to "Y IS X" fail every time.
  62. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33142 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 7:24 am
    vv Tiger hunting?
    (It`s not `safe for work` @MacGovern! lolz! Perhaps for you...)
  63. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 7:25 am
    @dang007,

    The problem is there is no way to say for sure what is and is not metaphor in the bible. When a teacher is teaching and uses a metaphor they explain that it is a metaphor.
  64. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 7:36 am
    @ollie: Nice troll, bro. No one said anything about "liberal" atheists, you added that one because every conversation has to be partisan to you.

    To all saying we evolved from monkeys, get a clue.

    Evolution is fact. Hell, it`s even observable on a micro level. Abiogenesis? Not proven, exactly, but highly probable. The Miller-Urey experiment demonstrated that amino acids can form in conditions similar to an early earth, and Sidney Fox was able to create protobionts from thermal energy combined with inorganic molecules. These are precursors to the first form of actual life.
  65. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 7:47 am
    >>>The problem is there is no way to say for sure what is and is not metaphor in the bible. When a teacher is teaching and uses a metaphor they explain that it is a metaphor.<<<

    Not always it is often obvious because of the context and to the culture at the time. That is why we must understand the culture in which Jesus lived in order to better understand what he is teaching. In addition, he was speaking to people in their time with their level of understanding but ALSO to us in our time with our level of understanding. While they could interpret some things literally due to their understanding of the world we can interpret some things metaphorically with our somewhat better understanding of the world. In either case the point Jesus was making is the same.
  66. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 7:51 am
    In addition, he was speaking to people in their time with their level of understanding but ALSO to us in our time with our level of understanding.
    orly? So Jesus knew what our level of understanding would be, but didn`t bother to clarify? He could have at least pointed out how the Jonah and the whale thing was about the constellation Cetus.
  67. Profile photo of 8BitHero
    8BitHero Male 18-29
    5414 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 7:54 am
    @Samsquanch
    Yes but religious people don`t like the believe in facts but rather stupid fairy tales with evidence of actually happening. No matter how times you tell them, "you`re wrong", they`ll try to find a way around it.
  68. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 8:05 am
    "Not always it is often obvious because of the context and to the culture at the time."

    @deng007

    Only it is not obvious, if you ask 10 theologians about the same bible passage you will get many different answers. Believers and `experts` don`t agree at all so how can you claim it is obvious?
  69. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14656 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 8:07 am
    McGov`s back!
  70. Profile photo of OutWest
    OutWest Male 50-59
    546 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 8:22 am
    .... another I am an atheist and you are a dumb christian topic? Really?

  71. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 8:38 am
    @Outwest: you seem surprised. Anti-religion posts live rent-free here.
  72. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 10:21 am
    >>>Only it is not obvious, if you ask 10 theologians about the same bible passage you will get many different answers. Believers and `experts` don`t agree at all so how can you claim it is obvious?<<<

    I didn`t say it was obvious. I did indicate that someone using an analogy does not ALWAYS explicitly state that this is an analogy. I will point out that what may have been obvious at the time might not be obvious now, thus the big disagreement. The fact that not all Christians agree 100% in lock step about every detail does not mean the fundamental tenants of their belief is false, as the video tries to argue.

  73. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 10:23 am
    Finally, if you went back in time to try and explain ANY concept to people largely without your knowledge you would be hard pressed to do much but focus on your MAIN message and use the understanding of the world the people of that time had to get that message across. Even using their inaccurate understanding of the physics of the universe to make your point.

    If you look carefully, that is what Jesus is doing, or at least that`s my belief, focusing on the main point, and using their own stories and beliefs to make that point in many different ways.
  74. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 12:10 pm
    I still don`t believe all you need to do is "accept Jesus as your lord and saviour" to be a christian. Again, what`s with the rest of the religion then? What`s with the 10 commandments? And the deadly sins, and the cherry picking of the bible.

    Seriously, how can christians pick one passage as the way to heaven, when there are several others that indicate alternative paths that are a lot harder (like burning 2 lambs/day for god, or giving him 7 kids for good crops...)

    And since it seems to have been missed it, I present you god`s probable look, according to christians who think evolution and christianity can coexist:

    Didn`t he say he created Adam and Eve, the first humans, in his own image? It`s either that or

    So where do we draw the lines? Even theologians don`t ag
  75. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 12:16 pm
    ... even theologians don`t agree.

    I just don`t buy it, either religious people are willfully ignorant, or they`re simply not doing it right, I mean, the holy text says several super-mega-important commands, but they just pick that one to follow.

    Sorry DromEd, but if questioning god is beyond your intelligence level, you should probably spend more time thinking, because the fact that god seems to have chosen earth, and only earth to manifest his powers in the vastness of the universe is an argument against your creed.
  76. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 12:28 pm
    @jendrian: If you continue, this is your fate:

  77. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 12:37 pm
    @patchgrabber: don`t worry, I got that under control, I`m holding the sides of my head really hard and repeating to myself: "most people are not dumb... look at all we`ve accomplished"
  78. Profile photo of drawman61
    drawman61 Male 50-59
    7752 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 12:46 pm
    Scientology was started by a science-fiction novelist in the last 50+ years but people believe and give their money to it. So what chance have you got of changing the belief of people following one that happened to start 2000 years ago?
  79. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 12:51 pm
    @drawman61: Good point, but I`m pretty sure even if we didn`t immediately succeed, we`ve made some people think.

    I remember when I outed myself to my very catholic family, most of my family members called me "the heretic" (instead of my name) for about 3-4 years, but 6 years later about half of them are confessed atheists, and the rest barely agnostic. So even if there`s no short-term gain, making people think about possibilities outside of their spiritual comfort is always a good thing.

    At least that`s what I think, and that`s why I keep arguing against religions, and specially against churches.

    I must admit though, the hardest hard-headed people I`ve ever argued with are christians and muslims, every other religious person is a lot more open to debate.
  80. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 1:06 pm
    jendrian: You`re over complicating a simple act of faith.

    One of the thieves that was crucified next to Jesus, called him `Lord` and asked Jesus to remember him in his kingdom. Jesus said to him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

    That all it took, a proclamation of faith and contrition and he was saved.

    I believe your confusing salvation with opinions on how a Christian should behave after salvation. Christian behavior effects our testimony. a Christian with a poor testimony is not likely to draw others to Christ, and may even dissuade others. That is why we Christians should follow Christ`s commandments and not be pushy or judgmental.
  81. Profile photo of krw888
    krw888 Male 50-59
    174 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 1:21 pm
    The Catholic church supports the theory of evolution, (although it didn`t from the beginning).
    Christians can believe in the bible without taking every word literally.
  82. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 1:23 pm
    @CrakrJak, again, I`m not overcomplicating it, you`re oversimplifying it.
  83. Profile photo of Zach82
    Zach82 Male 30-39
    319 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 3:12 pm
    This guy does not represent mainstream Christianity. Just sayin`.
  84. Profile photo of SapphireHart
    SapphireHart Female 18-29
    412 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 3:54 pm
    Quick answer: Yes we can, and no there`s not. End of question.
  85. Profile photo of bridog6996
    bridog6996 Male 18-29
    571 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 4:03 pm
    Bible stories were passed by word of mouth for centuries before anything was ever written down. Have you ever played a game of "telephone?" In the space of a minute or two, the story changes completely as people don`t remember things, and add or subtract parts from the story either accidentally or on purpose. Now imagine a game of telephone lasting for centuries, and you have the Bible.
  86. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 4:04 pm
    @CrakrJak, here`s my point, John 3:16 surely says what you imply, but on Luke 10:25-37 he instructs that unless you love god and your neighbours, you will not see heaven. Then on Luke 18:18-30, he says you must sell everything and be his disciple, otherwise you definitely will not get into heaven, and how to be his disciple is described on Luke 14:25-35, which comes of the cost of abandoning everything, including your entire family (he explicitly says you must hate your children...).

    And it doesn`t end there, in Matthew 5:17-20 Jesus says that in order to get into heaven, you must be more righteous than the teachers of law, then in Matthew 18:1-5 he describes that unless you become like a child (whatever that means, it is utterly unexplained), you won`t see heaven.

    And these are all enclosed by Jesus himself with: "truly I tell you, unless ... you will certainly not see the kingdom of heaven/god"
  87. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 4:07 pm
    so how can you say that the very, only one thing that will guarantee you entrance to heaven, is John 3:16, or belief in Jesus as your saviour?, as that is but one lonely quote in a gargantuan book of instructions, and claim that all other instructions are merely opinions about behaviour?

    That to me is cherry picking for the sake of simplicity, instead of me deliberately trying to complicate the whole deal.
  88. Profile photo of DromEd
    DromEd Male 40-49
    1945 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 4:08 pm
    Sorry DromEd, but if questioning god is beyond your intelligence level, you should probably spend more time thinking, because the fact that god seems to have chosen earth, and only earth to manifest his powers in the vastness of the universe is an argument against your creed.

    To question God is not the issue. People of faith sometimes have doubt. What I question is how such finite beings such as ourselves can be so sure that there is no God. That your "faith" in the fact that there is no God is stronger than the faith of mine is that there is. You`re 25 years old or so and you`re so sure that you`ve solved the question that has been asked by man for thousands of years. And I never once said that Earth is the only place God rolls so to speak. God`s everywhere brother.
  89. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 4:19 pm
    if god exists and IS nature, then nature must have consciousness
    if god exists, is nature but has no consciousness, then there`s no point in adoration, and this, is what scientists refer to when they talk of "god". Except for Newton, he was crazy.

    And finally, the one other possibility: there is no god. It`s simple, elegant, and it works, in fact, much better than the other possibilities. Nature is nature, and we`re just a happy accident. Of that, there`s a lot of proof.
  90. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 4:20 pm
    fundamental problem : belief

    a theory only stands up until disproven, there is no belief.
  91. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 4:21 pm
    @DromEd: That is because I was raised catholic, and have been taught to think about, at least the catholic religion, for at least 20 years (I am 26, good guess), and granted at 6 I did not have a refined idea of god, but just as at 18 I did not have a refined idea of calculus, over time I got better at it, so much in fact have I studied theology that this mere, finite individual, has come to the conclusion that the whole idea of god is a human construct.

    I didn`t say god wasn`t everywhere in the universe, I said he somehow picked this tiny little rock to present himself, and create everything around him (as described in the Genesis).

    See, I don`t believe the existence of god is not provable, it`s very easy in fact:

    If god exists and has influence in the universe, such influence is detectable as distinct from nature.
    If god exists and has no influence in the universe, then his existence is pointless.
  92. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 4:24 pm
    @jendrian. what if god is the sum of everything. that is equally elegant, if equally meaningless..
  93. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 4:25 pm
    :)
  94. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 4:26 pm
    @MattPrince: I also have a problem with parts of scientific theories, although they are a lot less apprehensive about it.

    For example, my biggest problem right now is with the proofs of quantum field theory, "the most scientifically proven physical theory to date", which in my studies I`ve found to be pretty much forced. It goes a little like this:

    QFT calculations give us this quantity as an infinity... but we know it`s not infinity, it must be X, so we must extract the physical quantities from the mathematical infinity, and make an experiment to try and get this quantity.

    So far so good! So to make the experiment, we`re going to have to pick a physical starting point Y, and if X ~ Y, then the theory is proven.

    This is just circular logic, "X must be Y because of QFT, so we`re going to blindly measure Y and use it to find X"
  95. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 4:29 pm
    @MattPrince: Exactly, you may define god as you will, but unless you water it down to the point of its existence being meaningless, it always comes out as false.
  96. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 4:33 pm
    in my books the proven bit is the weak link. its not really proven, its just best fit for now.
  97. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 4:51 pm
    @MattPrince maybe some books are more savvy about it, most of the ones I`ve been reading say QFT is sound, but the point remained: what do we consider proof?

    I certainly don`t consider most of the experiments I`ve read about so far on QFT proof, but I do believe the question of the existence of god has an answer which, by the way, has been given several times throughout the course of human history, and it`s a resounding no. From what I`ve seen, apologists offer nothing more than excuses, instead of evidence, towards the belief of the existence of god.
  98. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 5:14 pm
    that would b an ecumunical matter..




    g`night!
  99. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 5:44 pm
    jendrian: Jesus had 12 disciples, there is a big difference between being a disciple and being a Christian.

    As for being more righteous than the "Pharisees and the teachers of the law", the only way for that to happen is to have your sins completely forgiven and only Christ can do that.

    As for becoming "like little children", Christ is talking in a parable. You must be innocent like a child, so how does one become a child again? When you accept Jesus you are `Born Again` and innocent of your sins.

    This is really bush league criticism of Christianity, Jendrian. It`s stuff I`ve heard a dozen times or more and is easy to answer.

    Perhaps the nuns at your catholic school were a bit too much into discipline and ritual and not enough into answering what Jesus` parables meant.
  100. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33142 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 6:34 pm
    @jendrian: 10 Commandments: Old Testament
    7 Deadly Sins: Not in the Bible.

    "how can christians pick one passage as the way to heaven"
    Because Jesus said so? Is that a trick question, lolz!

    "@CrakrJak, again, I`m not overcomplicating it, you`re oversimplifying it."
    Actually, I think @Crakr`s answer is outstanding! Well said @CrakrJak!
  101. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33142 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 6:40 pm
    if god exists and IS nature, then nature must have consciousness
    Wait, what? You lost me there @jendrian!
    Nature is just the Laws of the Universe as was created by God. Nature isn`t a "thing" it`s a process, like evolution is!

    Perhaps the nuns at your catholic school were a bit too much into discipline and ritual
    You can bet the farm on that @Crakr & @jendrian! lolz!
  102. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 7:06 pm
    @CrakrJak, yeah I`m pretty sure you`ve heard some explanations that deal with the inconsistencies of the bible and assuming them as metaphor, I`ve heard that too. The nuns at my catholic school were the most loving people I`ve encountered, truly selfless and great educators.

    I would contest every one of your points as nothing more than choice in meaning of the parables, as I`ve been saying, all you`re doing is picking which parts of it you are to believe and how to interpret them.

    I don`t understand how that one interpretation is the one you decide to stick with, and apparently every other one that`s been fed to you as well must decidedly be false.

    I`m certain too that the interpretation of the phrases I cited is not the only one that makes sense, but again, it seems like nothing more than choice other than truth.
  103. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 7:07 pm
    @5Cats: 7 deadly sins ... or at least their basis, that is indeed the only reason I made that post.
  104. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 7:32 pm
    @OldOllie - I`d say you`re the most "full of hate" person on this board. You`re always bilious.
    @Buiadh Oh, I`m not claiming to be any kind of angel. I get pissed off, insulting, and even rude, but only over matters of CONSEQUENCE -- like liberals destroying our economy, education system, justice system, news media, individual liberty, and just about everything they control and their insatiable desire to control EVERYTHING. What I don`t understand, is why liberals get so upset over something that is of no consequence whatsoever.

    And you`re begging the question: why the hell DOES it matter to you what anybody thinks about this?
  105. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 7:43 pm
    jendrian: I don`t understand how that one interpretation is the one you decide to stick with, and apparently every other one that`s been fed to you as well must decidedly be false.

    Because it`s the simplest and most direct explanation. The problem here is belief and since you don`t believe you see the trees and miss the forest. You complain about "Cherry picking", but that is exactly what you are doing. You`re getting stuck on the minutia and missing the concept.

    If I blindfolded you and led you to an elephant you`d swear it couldn`t be an elephant because it had a tail like a rat.
  106. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 7:53 pm
    @CrakrJak: No, on the contrary, I`m not siding with any definition, I`m leading you to the source and asking you why you choose one definition.

    I could remove your blindfold and show you there was no forest, and you`d still stick with the definition of "this one tree is enough to call it a forest".
  107. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 8:11 pm
    jendrian: You don`t believe in any definition, thus don`t even think the trees exist, let alone see the forest. You`ve dismissed it all, no explanation will suffice for you now.

    Good luck wandering in that desert with nothing to guide you, thinking that you`re nothing but an accident of nature. Sounds really lonely and depressing.
  108. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 8:22 pm
    @CrakrJak: No... it`s not like that, and I don`t appreciate the insulting tone. What I`m trying to do is understand all definitions and see why some people stick to one, and some stick to the other.

    It`s not that I don`t believe in any explanation of the tree that has pizza fruits, it`s that such a claim needs to be somewhat substantiated by something other than historical accounts that most people seem to agree with "in their own way".

    I don`t mean to insult or convert you, I only wish to understand, from your point of view, why you chose those definitions to stick with. The problem I have with your responses is that they are all "because I chose to", and that`s just not enough, it`s like I chose that picture of Jesus Ramirez, a football player, as the image of Jesus I wish to follow, to deliberately show how blank the statement is.
  109. Profile photo of clancy54
    clancy54 Male 18-29
    83 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 9:38 pm
    This video says that just by reading the bible and not taking every single thing literally, the other parts cannot be true. That`s like saying because you interpreted a part of any book differently than the talking group (read oppressive people who obviously have nothing better to do but try to belittle people) then you cannot believe in any other part of a book of non fiction.
  110. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 9:43 pm
    jendrian: Then you must have missed my "Because it`s the simplest and most direct explanation."

    You seem to want to complicate and make understanding it difficult. You`ve heard the phrase, "It`s so simple even a child could understand it" and that is how simple it should be. Jesus wasn`t like the pharisees, lawyers, that argue over every little thing. He doesn`t want us to be like that either.

    It`s not because I chose to, it`s because Jesus chose to make it that simple.
  111. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 9:59 pm
    I see... well, I guess I`m not getting anything other than: "because I chose to" from you.

    FYI, the simplest and most direct explanation would be to take the writing exactly for what the words in it express, instead of hypothetical explanations of metaphor, i.e., if god says: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.", the simplest and most direct explanation is that god gave the world his son so that you can never die.

    But that`s not directly what it means, right? You have to include interpretation to make it work, because we know no christian has ever managed to not die without external interpretation of what "perish" and "eternal life" mean.
  112. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3929 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 10:51 pm
    Somebody hit OldOllie. His needle is stuck on Liberal.
  113. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 11:17 pm
    the simplest thing would be for god to appear to us all and tell us how it is.

    Anything else is subject to interpretation.

    so simple a child will understand it? grow up ffs.
  114. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 25, 2012 at 11:20 pm
    jendrian: I never said, "because I chose to".

    I believe you`ve intentionally tried to obfuscate and twist the meaning of scripture. Despite your claim, you do not seem to want understanding, quite the reverse.

    Someone that seeks understand keeps an open mind, you`ve closed yours and become a pharisee to others.
  115. Profile photo of photomstr
    photomstr Male 50-59
    766 posts
    April 26, 2012 at 1:10 am
    these ancient superstitions could produce the fall of modern man . . .
  116. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    April 26, 2012 at 5:04 am
    It would be good to be able to see statistics showing how people changed religious beliefs, including defecting to aetheism from their birth religion, as the vast majority of religious people have accepted the religion they have been brought up to believe in. Indoctrinated from birth.
  117. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    April 26, 2012 at 6:10 am
    >>>>FYI, the simplest and most direct explanation would be to take the writing exactly for what the words in it express<<<

    But then that is exactly the opposite of what you seem to want to do. Take the Bible as a whole and explain what it expresses. God created the Universe, God created an intelligent being and attempted to have a relationship with them but could not because they behaved in an unholy way, God tried several ways to have a relationship with them (old testament), they would not change, God has a solution to this problem that solution is Christ.

    The words in the Bible express this quite clearly.
  118. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    April 26, 2012 at 12:14 pm
    "because they behaved in an unholy way" I think this was the crux of Jendrians point, the bible either says clearly what is unholy or it doesn`t, and it sounds like it does state clearly, and a lot of what its states is quite clearly rubbish, so you`ve opted for this nebulous `spirit of the thing` which is about as tangible as your god.

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