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Date: 02/20/12 12:05 PM

58 Responses to Has The U.S.A. Fallen Deep Into A Fascist System?

  1. Profile photo of kitteh9lives
    kitteh9lives Female 70 & Over
    8044 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 11:27 am
    Link: Has The U.S.A. Fallen Deep Into A Fascist System? - R. Paul warns that America is slipping into a 21st century fascist system with a broken government ruled by big business
  2. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 12:19 pm
    meh...
  3. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 12:35 pm
    More scaremongering will not cure scaremongering from the other side.
  4. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 12:41 pm
    I don`t think facism is the right way to put it, but our system is definitely extremely corrupt. It doesn`t feel like any politician actually cares about the citizens of the country, only what lines their pocketbooks.
  5. Profile photo of nettech98
    nettech98 Male 50-59
    1043 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 12:54 pm
    When I look up fascism, I don`t see a fit with the definition and what`s going on in this country...
  6. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 1:14 pm
    1. Tax the rich in brackets, up to 80% on personal income above $10M
    2. Tax the corporations based on gross income, not net revenue
    3. Tax the churches
    4. Cut military by 70% with the exception of R&D
    5. Split the political parties. It is a stupid, almost non-existent vote of either conservative or ultra conservative.
    6. Ban private donations to politicians.
    7. Remove all of congress and replace it.
    8. Bind politicians to campaign promises under threat of impeachment and reward for satisfying public need.

    Now get to it.

    Problem?
  7. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 1:18 pm
    Where is the Supreme Court when we need them?
  8. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 1:23 pm
    1. Tax the rich in brackets, up to 80% on personal income above $10M Bad idea
    2. Tax the corporations based on gross income, not net revenue + #1 makes that double taxation. Even worse idea.
    3. Tax the churches Ironically something I do agree with.
    4. Cut military by 70% with the exception of R&D Just cut it along with Medicare, Medicaid, and OASDI.
    5. Split the political parties. It is a stupid, almost non-existent vote of either conservative or ultra conservative. ...or you can just quit voting for the party.
    6. Ban private donations to politicians. That won`t solve anything.
    7. Remove all of congress and replace it. By revolution or election?
  9. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 1:25 pm
    8. Bind politicians to campaign promises under threat of impeachment and reward for satisfying public need. Oh yeah THAT will get bad incumbents out, not. "Public need" is POLITICALLY HARD to define.
  10. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 1:33 pm
    "Bad idea"
    Why? I think 80% is a bit much but it`s already extremely low.

    "+ #1 makes that double taxation. Even worse idea."
    I don`t think that means double taxation. It just means proper taxation.

    "Just cut it along with Medicare, Medicaid, and OASDI."
    I don`t agree with those 3 cuts, unless there`s a true public option/universal health care for people unable to afford insurance. In which case, go ahead and cut them.

    "That won`t solve anything."
    How not?
  11. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 1:45 pm
    @nettech98
    Oxford dictionary definition of Fascism: an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization

    Seems like an almost perfect fit to me
  12. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36865 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 2:20 pm

    Steps to a solution... Corporations are NOT people. BAN donations to politicians in any form from anyone other than an actual private citizen. Stop letting lobbyists and corporations purchase politicians.

    And get rid of the Senate...it`s pointless and just slows down the political process.

    Also, Americans need to grow up and stop expecting the gov`ment to provide all their needs.
  13. Profile photo of shamrock1014
    shamrock1014 Male 40-49
    313 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 2:25 pm
    I have to laugh at those who say cut the military.
  14. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 2:41 pm
    "I have to laugh at those who say cut the military."

    Why? We already spend way way way way too much on military (about 43% of military spending in the whole world is done by the USA alone). We don`t want it cut completely, just to a reasonable amount.
  15. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 2:49 pm
    Why? I think 80% is a bit much but it`s already extremely low.

    As it should be anything beyond. The higher the tax rate is above 15% the less revenue will be obtained. The higher the tax rate the less people are willing to work because more will simply be taken away. It`s called the Laffer curve.

    I don`t think that means double taxation. It just means proper taxation.
    Either the company will have to surrender that money or they shift those costs onto the consumer. Both of which already face some form of taxation on income.

    I don`t agree with those 3 cuts, unless there`s a true public option/universal health care for people unable to afford insurance. In which case, go ahead and cut them.

    The solution isn`t universal healthcare it`s ending the distortions created by state level regulations AND federal level.
  16. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 2:54 pm
    On top of which certain people do not coverage their entire lives why should they be entitled to or be compelled to buy it? Finally these programs take money out of everyone`s paycheck and gives it to old people who are well to do anyways.

    How not?
    Bribery is already banned, this amounts to suppressing political speech.
  17. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 2:58 pm
    And get rid of the Senate...it`s pointless and just slows down the political process.

    I disagree in most cases it should come to a grinding halt like SOPA, PIPA, and most military spending bills.
  18. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 3:01 pm
    I have to laugh at those who say cut the military.

    I laugh at hawks who say they`re concerned about our nation`s security while advocating more involvement and spending.
  19. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 3:03 pm
    Also, Americans need to grow up and stop expecting the gov`ment to provide all their needs.

    They can start by not holding their politicians to high esteem.
  20. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 3:15 pm
    "The higher the tax rate is above 15% the less revenue will be obtained. The higher the tax rate the less people are willing to work because more will simply be taken away. It`s called the Laffer curve. "

    What? That`s not true at all. People are going to willingly stop making money or to make less money just because they`re being taxed? Maybe if they`re so poor that it costs more to work than to not work, but for your average millionaire+, that`s definitely not the case.
  21. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 3:17 pm
    "Bribery is already banned, this amounts to suppressing political speech. "

    Bribery is banned? Well, it`s definitely not enforced at all. Our politicians almost always do what`s in the favor of the businesses "contributing" to them rather than what`s actually good for the country.
  22. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 3:25 pm
    Must I remind everyone that this news report comes courtesy of the Kremlin and is Putin backed Russia Times.

    Propaganda is propaganda. Make a note of the hacks and charlatans that make their voices heard via the RT news network.
  23. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 3:29 pm
    People are going to willingly stop making money or to make less money just because they`re being taxed?

    That`s the truth.

    Maybe if they`re so poor that it costs more to work than to not work, but for your average millionaire+, that`s definitely not the case.

    There is a huge block of former Soviet Satellite nations competing for business via their tax rates. Then there`s Blackwater (an organization I not fond of mind you) that moved their HQ to Mexico. On top of which there was a decrease in people trying to shelter their money in offshore bank accounts after tax rates were decreased.
  24. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 3:34 pm
    Well, it`s definitely not enforced at all. Our politicians almost always do what`s in the favor of the businesses "contributing" to them rather than what`s actually good for the country.

    No one is allowed to buy votes, not even corporations. But if you`re worried about the entore corporate world indirectly lobbying against individual liberty that`s a misguided blanket condmenation as well. An example of this is Microsoft, Google, Firefox all of them lobbied AGAINST SOPA and PIPA while the Hollywood corporate bloc was lobbying for them. There are other brilliant examples too (unfortunately not all are successful). But if you really want to compete against such corporate malfeasance form a PAC.
  25. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2345 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 3:42 pm
    the US finally died in 2000 when the supreme court, with no such authority to do so, appointed a president.

    from there the gov to this day went on a rights raiding party that culminated with the American people truly losing their freedom with the passing of the NDAA.

    the NDAA should have been enough to start a revolt but Americans are fat and ignorant and apathetic to such a degree that we just sit by and allow this crap to happen and when a few do stand up against it, most side with big business and snuggle up to corrupt officials.

    if you find yourself against movements like OWS, you are the type of American I am talking about.

    you do not have to agree with their methods but their message is spot on, big business has bought this country and taken over and it has to stop.

    when the time comes to truly raise up and make the changes that need to be made, which side will you be on...the people`s or big gov/business?
  26. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2345 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 3:44 pm
    Cajun247

    you are splitting hairs here bud.

    Google et al, have all lobbied against the American people at times and just because their interest aligned with the people`s on SOPA does not mean that big mega corps give a rats ass about the people at all.

  27. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 3:49 pm
    jamie: That doesn`t mean no American corporation stands to lose when big business colludes with the government.
  28. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 3:59 pm
    At the advent of modern refrigation in America there was a tremendous upheaval by companies that imported ice from the Arctic. They lobbied heavily to stunt the new technology`s marketability saying "it`s not God`s ice". Then there was maturation of automated computation technology where mainframes would replace warehouses full of people for the exact same role. The car replaced horses and left the streets cleaner blacksmith organizations lobbied. Simply put corporations tend to lobby when they`re afraid of losing business.
  29. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 5:37 pm
    Beyond making $10M a year, one can enjoy an effectively limitless lifestyle. At that amount of wealth, every comfort and luxury available to anyone is open to you. I don`t see any reason to make more, other than just to save it, which doesn`t do anyone any good. People have the right not to be philanthropists.

    Furthermore, I don`t know of any action one person could take that would be worth, say $50M, by which I mean it would be impossible to find someone else to do it better and more cheaply.

    I can understand and accept millionaires, but billionaires are a useless product of greed and are economically inefficient.

    So when I see:
    Bad idea
    I have to ask, why?

    And don`t give me the whole "they`ll move away" thing, because they won`t. The US would still be the best place to do business.
  30. Profile photo of -NOMAD-
    -NOMAD- Male 18-29
    23 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 5:39 pm
    "No one is allowed to buy votes, not even corporations"

    The bank bailouts are a prime example of this.
  31. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 5:43 pm
    2. Tax the corporations based on gross income, not net revenue
    The reason I said this one was to counter the person = corporation flaw in the system. If you think about what a blue-collar worker is taxed on, its gross income of course. After tax and all manner of personal expenses, (all of which might be necessary to continue existing), they end up in the red, whereas a company that breaks even exactly makes nothing and pays no tax.

    (That might not be *exactly* how it is, but it is how I see it, correct me if I`m wrong).

    So either tax corporations on gross income or make food, clothing, utilities, rent, transportation and education ALL tax deductible.

    (some of those may be tax deductible already, but you get the idea).
  32. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 5:50 pm
    4. Cut military by 70% with the exception of R&D
    This one should have been pretty obvious. As it is, there exists no threat to the US that justifies such ridiculous military spending. The US cannot be beaten in any conflict, except if most of the rest of the world allied together.

    ...or you can just quit voting for the party.
    Yes. Not voting. Then your voice will be heard! It seems a huge chunk of your country doesn`t agree with either party. Representation! Woohoo!

    Ban private donations to politicians. That won`t solve anything.
    Do you know what corruption is? Its a fairly strait-forward concept.

    Remove all of congress and replace it.
    By revolution or election?
    either.




  33. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 5:58 pm
    Bind politicians to campaign promises under threat of impeachment
    I thought this one would make sense. Are people expected to trust politicians? Are you on an honor system? If you are then its hilariously flawed.

    When a politician makes a promise, what binds them to that promise? If your answer is "the threat of not being elected again", then your system is ridiculously unbalanced in favor of politicians. The future career of one person is massively outweighed by the impact of a promise which affects an entire country.
    reward for satisfying public need. ... "Public need" is POLITICALLY HARD to define.
    Granted, that`s a new problem, but it would only be hard to define on issues where all sides of a decision are roughly equal. Most decisions running through politics now are pretty one-sided when it comes to "public good".
  34. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 5:59 pm
    I`m going to add another point, which I forgot before...

    9. Make all hospitals, prisons and universities public institutions.

    Let the flames continue!
  35. Profile photo of swoop408
    swoop408 Male 18-29
    1754 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 6:53 pm
    Ron Paul seems to make the most sense out of everyone running yet we`d rather have some religious nuthead or business slime ball as the front runners. The republican party is a goddamn laughing stock.
  36. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14654 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 8:45 pm
    That`s about the sum of it. Like all fascist goverments, it`s mostly foreigners that can see it. The citizens slip into it like a frog boiled slowly to death.
  37. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36865 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 8:53 pm

    The U.S. is on it`s deathbed. Only thing left is to pull the plug, which should happen at the next election.
  38. Profile photo of greenbasterd
    greenbasterd Male 18-29
    2377 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 9:16 pm
    "The citizens slip into it like a frog boiled slowly to death."

    no that old tail is false the frogs actually had there brains removed before the test. so they were brainless.. we cant say that about the U..... oh wait nm
  39. Profile photo of SilverThread
    SilverThread Male 30-39
    3431 posts
    February 20, 2012 at 9:23 pm
    If Ron Paul were an independent, I would vote for him without a doubt, but riding a Republican ticket is too unendearing to me.
  40. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 12:13 am
    I have to ask, why?

    And don`t give me the whole "they`ll move away" thing, because they won`t. The US would still be the best place to do business.

    At an 80% tax rate I guarantee you they will take their business elsewhere. That`s exactly what happens when you raise the tax rate any further beyond 15%.
  41. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 12:17 am
    When a politician makes a promise, what binds them to that promise? If your answer is "the threat of not being elected again", then your system is ridiculously unbalanced in favor of politicians. The future career of one person is massively outweighed by the impact of a promise which affects an entire country.

    A politician`s goal is to win your vote and thus during a campaign he will advertise theirself to the masses. Their promises are nothing more than pandering.
  42. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 4:39 am
    That guy doesn`t know what Fascism is.
  43. Profile photo of EgalM
    EgalM Male 30-39
    1707 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 5:26 am
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

    Some of it certainly fits what`s been going on. It does seem like the split party system is on the way out, another term of Obama should get rid of it, least at his rate of giving in to both sides.
  44. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 7:10 am
    Some of it certainly fits what`s been going on.

    Some, yes. Such as militarism and nationalism, but ultimately there are more differences than similarities.
  45. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 7:18 am
    "At an 80% tax rate I guarantee you they will take their business elsewhere. That`s exactly what happens when you raise the tax rate any further beyond 15%."

    I`m sorry but this is still a complete and utter lie.
  46. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 8:09 am
    I`m sorry but this is still a complete and utter lie.

    Why? The Laffer Curve has been proven time and time again, unless you can absolutely prove something else is going on I will continue to be a disciple of Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich Hayek.
  47. Profile photo of furrything
    furrything Male 50-59
    1351 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 9:07 am
    Dress it up in semantics all you like...but the US is in VERY deep trouble. This guy is spot on.
  48. Profile photo of keith2
    keith2 Male 30-39
    2591 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 9:28 am
    You know, one of these days a facist dictator is going to get it right.. and there will be no uprising or revolution. Impossible.
  49. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 9:46 am
    Cajun247, 80% tax rate? Really? The worlds highest tax rate is Belgium. They`re at 54% and are rated as one of the happiest societies in the world. I suggest you and you teabag friends do a bit of travelling outside the US. There`s a lot of good out there in first world nations. Bridges that don`t collapse, state run prisons that have significantly fewer prisoners, education standards that exceed ours. This is no utopia.
  50. Profile photo of BBJellyFish
    BBJellyFish Male 18-29
    550 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 9:58 am
    Has the US fell into a fascist system? Yes. We don`t have a 6th Amendment Right anymore.
  51. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 12:55 pm
    madest

    Except countries like Belgium tend to have their own tax credits which offset those high tax rates. Then again making those available require more bureaucracies. Thus it`d be simpler if taxes were just low.
  52. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 2:58 pm
    Yeah that`s working well for us.
  53. Profile photo of InTheNameOf
    InTheNameOf Male 30-39
    335 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 5:02 pm
    NDAA quickly followed by SOPA/ACTA.

    The american plutocracy saw what happened in egypt / syria and that scared them. So they pass NDAA so they can remove leaders of a revolution. Then they want SOPA/ACTA so they can shut down social media sites that are used to coordinate protests.

    But will a revolution really happen in america? I am not so sure. Lots of people are angry (ex: occupy) but that is not nearly enough. The plutocracy is not stupid. They will keep most people just comfortable enough so they will not revolt. The trick is to squeeze as much as possible but not too much. And in the meantime to quietly bleed away as many freedoms as possible. It seems to be working.

    We are totally drated.
  54. Profile photo of InTheNameOf
    InTheNameOf Male 30-39
    335 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 5:15 pm
    Wow, after reading all the posts I have slightly more hope than I did before. If only this was a true representation of the entire country we might have half a chance.
  55. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 8:37 pm
    At an 80% tax rate I guarantee you they will take their business elsewhere.
    I was talking about personal income tax there.

    Imagine you are a millionaire making say... $50M a year, living here in the sates. Now imagine your government raises the income tax on everything you earn above $10M to 80%. Would your standard of living drop? Nope.

    What are your options? Move elsewhere? There are few places where you could go that would offer a better deal if you were to factor all the costs of moving and adjustment and living in a foreign land.

    I imagine very few people would sacrifice so much just for the knowledge of having money they will never spend in their accounts.

    When it comes to businesses it`s different, because they actually use the money (ideally), so I am not suggesting a 80% corporate rate.
  56. Profile photo of jeepjones
    jeepjones Male 30-39
    554 posts
    February 22, 2012 at 4:29 am
    Isn`t this "the american dream" ?
  57. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    February 22, 2012 at 6:16 am
    Thus it`d be simpler if taxes were just low.
    Tell that to California. Their citizens voted for tax cuts and won`t ever vote for tax increases and thus California is now broke.
  58. Profile photo of AvatarJohn
    AvatarJohn Male 30-39
    1059 posts
    February 22, 2012 at 11:44 am
    patchgrabber, get a clue. California has the highest taxes in the country. That`s why they`re going broke! Same goes for New York.

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