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Category: Misc
Date: 02/26/12 08:22 AM

152 Responses to God And Free Will: Why Is There Evil?

  1. Profile photo of Dead_mind
    Dead_mind Male 18-29
    303 posts
    February 21, 2012 at 8:21 pm
    Link: God And Free Will: Why Is There Evil? - Apparently, we have more free will then the ``thing`` that created us.
  2. Profile photo of YANKmyDOODLE
    YANKmyDOODLE Male 30-39
    771 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 8:44 am
    god discriminates who gets into heaven.. last time i checked, discrimination was evil
  3. Profile photo of LordJim
    LordJim Male 60-69
    6952 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 8:53 am
    Spesking as an atheist I found that to be rather smug and superficial.
  4. Profile photo of DeutschDude9
    DeutschDude9 Male 18-29
    473 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 9:03 am
    I bow before robot god.
  5. Profile photo of YANKmyDOODLE
    YANKmyDOODLE Male 30-39
    771 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 9:05 am
    @LordJim it`s not smug or superficial to debate somebody as long as you aren`t putting them down for their beliefs. it`s just a video about the god paradox which has been an age old question.
  6. Profile photo of DuckBoy87
    DuckBoy87 Male 18-29
    3238 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 9:09 am
    I stopped half way through because I believe that if God existed, he COULD do evil.
    Examples: the great flood, the ten signs unto Pharoh to release the Jews...
    Even though those two examples have noble intentions, they are still malicious. Therefore I can only conclude that God can do evil, making his point moot.
  7. Profile photo of elderban
    elderban Male 30-39
    390 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 9:10 am
    The answer is simple. In looking for free will, robots created man. Our God is a robot.
  8. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 9:10 am
    "god discriminates who gets into heaven.. last time i checked, discrimination was evil"

    Everything "god" does has an adverse and selfish reason to it. God is more evil than the deity "He" is supposed to abolish.

    Now Satan, he dont give a damn. He sits back and watches the world tear itself apart. While god takes in the forgivable murders, rapists, genocidal megalomaniacs, Satan takes in the unforgivable sacrileges, Gays, witches and the retarded.

    I think Satan just takes in us Juggalos, so its one hell of a party...just saying...

    Though, I dont believe in any of that, but your local boy-rapeing priest does!!!
  9. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 9:38 am
    "Therefore I can only conclude that God can do evil, making his point moot."

    Except that Christians (and I`m sure those of other religions) say their god is good, doesn`t do evil, things like that. So his point isn`t moot, because the vast majority of Christians believe that.
  10. Profile photo of cobrakiller
    cobrakiller Male 18-29
    7470 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 9:39 am
    Okay, not a believer here, but I think I will play devils advocate .

    If God were to take a choice away from us , then we do not truly have free will.

    The other question about God not having the ability to choose evil is weird. It isnt that God doesnt have the choice to do evil, it is more that by the nature of God, anything it does is considered good. So therefore anything it does cannot be evil.

    So it wouldnt be that we have more free will than God, it is just that no matter what God does, it will be the good choice.
  11. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14621 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 9:41 am
    Every argument regarding god is answered by Jews/ Christians/ Muslims is answered by `because` or `shut up`.

    Religious people, you can`t explain that. By your own logic; ergo there atheism is right.
  12. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 9:42 am
    @Steelgrid - When I was a Christian I was terrified of hell, afraid of doing anything wrong in case I`d go there. Now that I know it`s fiction, I feel like hell seems like a much better place than heaven if everyone who doesn`t believe in god goes there. There are so many great and intelligent people supposedly going to hell. I`d rather be with them than with the people who harmed others "in the name of god" but chose the right god to believe in. Just my feelings ^^
  13. Profile photo of collegebound
    collegebound Male 18-29
    3745 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 9:48 am
    i dont believe that we have more free will than god...i just believe he has alot more common sense...

    YANKmyDOODLE: i being a christian i dont really thing he does discriminate. i believe that when we die we go to BOTH heaven and hell but the greater part of our conscience goes to one or the other. dont see how heaven would be so perfect otherwise...

    Draculya: i`ve never once answered like that when someone asks me a question pertaining to religion. my answer is "He`s God...he can do what ever he wants..." personally i don`t understand why that is so hard for other people to understand...
  14. Profile photo of randomxnp
    randomxnp Male 30-39
    1293 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 9:51 am
    This is not very good. I am an atheist, but even I see the gaping hole in the argument. No-one has claimed God cannot do evil. Christians claim God does not do evil, which is a different thing entirely.

    I would also, of course, point out that their holy text, the Bible, contains many claims of God doing things I would call evil. The fact that God did them means that Christians would perhaps claim that they are not evil, but that does not make it so.
  15. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 9:56 am
    DuckBoy: God doesn`t do evil, but he has punished the sinful. Mankind brought sin into the world, not God.

    Once again atheists are trying to impose their humanist rules upon God, which might as well be like an ant imposing `antiest` (just made that word up) laws upon a human.

    At least God cares about us enough that he sent his son to down here to die for our sins and free us. What have you ever done for an ant colony ?

    It`s hubris, false pride, that let`s anyone believe they are better than God.
  16. Profile photo of Rick_S
    Rick_S Male 40-49
    3282 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:01 am
    There is a fault in this persons argument. It`s logical. You can`t argue logically when it comes to religion. A quicker "believer" might have said, "We simply can`t understand God`s ways, not being equal to God. There are things we simply won`t ever be able to understand about God."
  17. Profile photo of collegebound
    collegebound Male 18-29
    3745 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:01 am
    CrakrJak: you should read the first book of the bible again...the snake? you know...the one who suggested adam and eve eat the forbidden fruit in the first place? pretty sure that was god`s creation...pretty sure that god made HUMANS last...

  18. Profile photo of collegebound
    collegebound Male 18-29
    3745 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:03 am
    CrakrJak: and lets not forget that story of the bears who tore those children into "forty and two peices"...God allowed that to happen. that was just plain wrong.
  19. Profile photo of collegebound
    collegebound Male 18-29
    3745 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:07 am
    "that was just plain wrong."

    or you can call it extreme. whatever helps you sleep at night.
  20. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:13 am
    It`s hubris, false pride, that let`s anyone believe they are better than God.

    No, it`s the fact that I`m not a petulant, psychotic megalomaniac who demands obedience to my every whim and who leaps to killing as my favoured response to not getting it, or maybe just because I feel like it at the time.

    So yes, I do think that I would be better than your god as described in your bible, if they exist as described there.

    Go eat your own ants. A tyrant is not above the judgement of the people under them. Might does not automatically make right.
  21. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:13 am
    Lillian: When I was a Christian I was terrified of hell, afraid of doing anything wrong in case I`d go there.

    Really ? Didn`t Psalm 23 comfort you in the least ? Didn`t knowing that Jesus took away your sins and wrote your name in the book of life, which no one can erase, not assure you that you would go to heaven regardless ?

    If not then perhaps you weren`t taught Christian doctrine or weren`t really a Christian at all.

    John 10:28-30 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.
  22. Profile photo of bophus
    bophus Male 30-39
    474 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:18 am
    Person #1 - Can can god do this and why can god do that?
    Person #2 - Because he is god

    me - because is not an answer and is a cop out. simple answers are easy for small minds to comprehend. not saying all religious people are small minded, but the ones who are have an easier time arguing with those who do not believe because of this answer.
  23. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:20 am
    collegebound: You`re forgetting the part of the bear story where those `children` were taunting and throwing rocks at the old man. Their sinning brought the bears upon them, not God. The wages of sin are death.
  24. Profile photo of collegebound
    collegebound Male 18-29
    3745 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:21 am
    CrakrJak: "Really ? Didn`t Psalm 23 comfort you in the least ? Didn`t knowing that Jesus took away your sins and wrote your name in the book of life, which no one can erase, not assure you that you would go to heaven regardless ?"

    those things dont give you an excuse to continue to do things that go against God...you should still do your best to be a good human being. if you have not realized that then maybe YOU aren`t a true christian...cant help buy notice too that you have completely ignored my earlier comments.
  25. Profile photo of collegebound
    collegebound Male 18-29
    3745 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:24 am
    CrakrJak: so if i sleep with a prostitute i deserve to be put to death? if i play a harmless prank on someone who just happens to be a preacher i deserve death? you must be an extremist...the man who was being taunted cursed the children. god sent the bears. they brought nothing upon themselves. an old man was angry at children and couldn`t just let it alone. god, instead of just refusing his request, killed the children in his favor. end of story.
  26. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:25 am
    Angilion: I do think that I would be better than your god...

    So you, a mortal being, frail and without power believes he`s better than the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing God ?

    So be it, that`s your mistake. Maybe one day you come to the realization that you aren`t better than the ruler of the universe. I hope you will.
  27. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:32 am
    CrakrJak, keep in mind your branch of Christianity isn`t the only branch. I was under the belief that you didn`t just have to be a Christian to go to heaven, but also a good person in general. There are gay people who are christians, and they`re still told they`re going to hell. I didn`t think any "sin" was greater than any other "sin" so if it applied to those gay christians, it had to apply to me as well, and if I "sinned", I very well could be going to hell too.
  28. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:32 am
    And yet somehow life went on.

    If you are a Christian (which I am) and aren`t willing to look at your faith and the beliefs of others through a critical lens you are missing out on the opportunity to expand your understanding of the universe, your faith and God.

    If you are an atheist and you aren`t willing to look at your belief and the faith of others through a critical lens, you are missing out on the opportunity to expand your understanding of the universe, humanity and morality.

    Seriously, approach somebody else`s faith with an open mind rather than a "your an idiot" mentality and you might learn something that actually compliments your own beliefs. More importantly, you might find a point of commonality and become a more tolerant (read: better) person.
  29. Profile photo of Buiadh
    Buiadh Male 30-39
    6739 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:34 am
    According to the Old Testament, the Judeo-Christian God is a terrible person, from a humanist point of view. Respect me and my laws or you will be condemned to an eternity of torture. Hardly the loving God that Christians like to worship these days is it? A few hundred years ago people whorshipped not out of love for their God, but out of fear.

    To say God cannot do evil is false.

    Which I realise makes this video pretty obsolete.
  30. Profile photo of ExtraCredit
    ExtraCredit Male 50-59
    451 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:35 am
    George Carlin: If God is all-powerful, can he make a rock so big that even he can`t lift it?

  31. Profile photo of Buiadh
    Buiadh Male 30-39
    6739 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:36 am
    @Kilgore89

    "...morality."

    Again, see my below post. How can the bible teach morality? The bible teaches a totalitarian viewpoint.

    How can people respect that?
  32. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:37 am
    @Buiadh

    According to the New Testament, God then had a kid and realised that a little bit of tolerance goes a long way. Religious texts don`t all apply at the same time, they`re teleological. The more recent stuff overrides the older things because people (including God) change and come to better understandings.

    It`s kind of like at the beginning of "The Hobbit", Bilbo doesn`t want anything to do with adventuring but by the time we get to "Lord of the Rings", Bilbo wants to go adventuring like an adventuring maniac.

    Old Testament = The Hobbit
    New Testament = The Lord of the Rings

    (Yes, I did just make that comparison)
  33. Profile photo of collegebound
    collegebound Male 18-29
    3745 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:37 am
    Kilgore89: dont bother...they dont want to hear it.
  34. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:39 am
    Kilgore89, your god is fallible, then?
  35. Profile photo of LordJim
    LordJim Male 60-69
    6952 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:39 am
    @YANKmyDOODLE,
    Yeh, I don`t disagree with his point, but the format of the imaginary opponent is smug.
  36. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:41 am
    collegebound: All have sinned and com short of the glory of God. We are saved by his grace, that doesn`t mean we will get many rewards in heaven by being a sinful believer. We are to lay up our treasures into heaven by our good works here on earth.

    We all deserve death and our earthly bodies will die, it`s what happens to our eternal souls that is the most important. I don`t fear the death of my body, it`s inevitable anyway. If you are motivated by fear then you can be easily controlled. What hope can you have, That you will live a long life ? and then what ?
  37. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:42 am
    Relative morality. It`s just one way of understanding how to be "a good person". To my knowledge, there is no single definition of what is "good". The Bible is just a guide to show us how we can individually try to figure out what "good" is and try to live that way. That being said it`s certainly not the only way to establish what is "good"; it`s just what works for some people.

    Organised religion in many cases loses this and instead tries to impose absolutes. The Bible and "Christianity" are not the same thing. I guess the best way to look at The Bible or any other religious text is as a tool. You can use a tool in lots of different ways, some people are just dicks about it. :P
  38. Profile photo of collegebound
    collegebound Male 18-29
    3745 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:46 am
    CrakrJak: for anyone who lives their life in fear of that then they should probably find a new religion or belief to cling to first and foremost. secondly anyone who is afraid of death can live a long life with the hope of Translation. where god takes your body and soul into heaven.

    then again you could always just repent for your sins/actions and you wont have to fear anything but death really...ive already stated my beliefs on the afterlife...
  39. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:47 am
    @Lillian

    Genesis 8:21 and the Lord said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of humankind... nor will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done"

    God flooded the Earth, had Noah save the animals and then God went "Oh poo, that was a bad idea. I guess I won`t do that again".

    So yes he is fallible and most tolerant Christians accept this. Fallibility doesn`t equate to invalidity. Scientists have been wrong but that doesn`t mean that the entire practice of science is wrong. Politicians have been wrong, but that doesn`t mean that the entire practice of government is wrong.
  40. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:50 am
    Oh, and if we follow the story through, God then made a rainbow which essentially his reminded to mankind that "I`m not perfect, you`re not perfect, let`s just all agree to do our best okay?"
  41. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:51 am
    Lillian: No sin is greater than another, it`s all sin. Is one ketchup stain worse than another ?

    I know there are some sects that will say that gays (and others) are going to hell, like those WBC idiots, but that is NOT what the bible says. Many people live in sin, gays, drunks, prostitutes, etc... others sin occasionally, one sinner is no worse or better than the other in God`s eyes. The church lady that chastises her whole community is no different than the drug dealer down the street, both are sinful. The only difference is that the church lady should know better.
  42. Profile photo of Samsquanch
    Samsquanch Male 30-39
    792 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:54 am
    Now consider a God whose consciousness and thought are far greater than our own. An eternal will that extends beyond the nature of mankind. We are not chosen to be created, but created by just the very nature of this God`s being...much like how bacteria thrives within us, but we are not necessarily responsible for the creation of the bacteria.
    Our own consciousness and thought are a byproduct of this "God"...an awareness of the energy of the universe, and when we pass this awareness transcends the corporeal world into the cosmos. The chemical processes that create our life also provide a connection into this cosmos to provide awareness and intelligence. But, because of the nature of our chemical bodies, we are incapable of becoming fully aware of our spiritual universe.
  43. Profile photo of Samsquanch
    Samsquanch Male 30-39
    792 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:56 am
    Every few millenia, a human comes around who`s more in-tune with the nature of the universe...an "elevated being" as we meagre minds like to conceive it. Abraham, Buddah, Muhammad, Jesus...all elevated thinkers, or "Ascended Masters" who are aware of the capabilities and the will of the universe.
  44. Profile photo of Buiadh
    Buiadh Male 30-39
    6739 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:56 am
    @Crakr

    So the difference between two ketchup stains is the same as the difference between making a likeness of God and killing someone?
  45. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:00 am
    Kilgore89: God didn`t make a mistake by flooding the earth, sorry you`re wrong there. It was part of God`s plan to cleanse the earth of sin at that time. God can see all of past, present, and future at once. The rainbow was a symbol of God`s promise, not an apology.
  46. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:01 am
    So you, a mortal being, frail and without power believes he`s better than the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing God ?

    No. I think I am better than the character described in your bible, who you think is your all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing god.

    I think that because they are a drating horrible person, a blood-drenched psycho nutjob mass murderering terrorist who kills for trivial deviations from obedience or even for being somewhere near someone who deviated from utter obedience in trivial ways.

    I`m not special for that. Almost every human is a better person than the character in your bible described as being god. They are that bad.
  47. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:05 am
    Buiadh: I believe you are taking the "graven images" part of the 10 commandments a bit far, but if you do worship the image, and not God, then you are idol worshiping. Christians have many symbols we look to, but we don`t worship them as God himself.

    As I said before one sin (stain) is no different than another. One might be easier to hide from others perhaps, but it`s still sin and is not hidden from God.
  48. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:06 am
    @CrakrJak

    That`s one interpretation. The way I`ve always read the story is that you are right and the plan was to cleanse the Earth of sin, but after the fact God decided that he was a bit too heavy-handed and that there were perhaps better ways to deal with sin. (Such as sending his son to give us some examples of how to be good people). The rainbow wasn`t an apology, but rather an admittance of going to far and a promise to try to be more constructive about how to deal with sin in the future.

    Just my protestant-based, non-traditional, literary-student interpretation of a book that is pretty heavy on metaphor.
  49. Profile photo of TheOrigin
    TheOrigin Male 18-29
    500 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:07 am
    Ah yes, apologetics. Bypassing logical fallacies, moving along.
  50. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:09 am
    Angilion: That`s your choice, I won`t chastise you on it, but I will pray for you.
  51. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:10 am
    Oh, and I guess I should point out that I don`t interpret an all-knowing God as literally being able to see all of time. Merely that he knows everything that currently is and that has passed and is able to act based on that knowledge.
  52. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:12 am
    "That`s your choice, I won`t chastise you on it, but I will pray for you."

    l.o.l
  53. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:16 am
    Kilgore89: I believe it, the flood, was about timing. It simply wasn`t Christ`s time to come to earth yet, heck the temple in Jerusalem hadn`t even been built yet, Moses hadn`t yet been born, etc...

    God is all knowing, he doesn`t have to learn anything, he already knew it.
  54. Profile photo of Buiadh
    Buiadh Male 30-39
    6739 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:16 am
    I agree with Lillian.
  55. Profile photo of TheShgn2
    TheShgn2 Male 13-17
    626 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:17 am
    God is probably just an alien who visited the Earth a long time ago. It would be like going back in time and showing someone an iPhone or a airplane; they would either burn you at the stake for witchcraft, or declare you a god.
  56. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:17 am
    Lillian: Why did you seem to find that funny ?
  57. Profile photo of Buiadh
    Buiadh Male 30-39
    6739 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:19 am
    @Crakr

    Gonna assume that it`s the typical Christian patronising tone that did it. It did it for me anyhow.
  58. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:21 am
    Angilion: That`s your choice, I won`t chastise you on it, but I will pray for you.

    No you won`t, for two reasons.

    Firstly, by praying for me to return to obedience to your tyrant you are insulting me for the purposes of your religion. That`s not something you do *for* me. It`s something you do *at* me.

    Secondly, your praying at me has nothing to do with me. It`s just an irrelevant insult I don`t care about. Your praying at me isn`t about me at all. It`s about you. So you are praying for yourself.
  59. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2345 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:23 am
    it is not hard at all to explain how God could give free will...in order to give free will you do not put a set of predisposed intrusions on a person that would prevent them from following any path they chose to.

    the big thing I keep seeing with atheist is the "why" question over and over.

    why is there evil if God is good, why is there this, why is there that...it is almost as if they cannot accept that man has evil in him, that is purely generated by man.

    also, and this is important to remember, God never said he is all good, in fact he said he CREATED MAN I HIS IMAGE.

    which of course means any emotion that we have, we got from him. we are capable of doing evil, so is God...and in fact God has done things listed in the bible anyone would consider evil. he killed the first born of every Egyptian...innocent children.
    he used a flood to wipe out man 1.0...and then felt bad for doing it.

  60. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2345 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:27 am
    and again to illustate the point, God CAN do evil.
    Jesus may not be able to but God certainly can and has.

    wiping out man with a flood, killing innocent babies...those things would be considered evil or bad.

    if we are created in his image and we have all the same emotions and feelings as him as implied by the statement that we are in fact created in his image then of course we are capable of evil because God is as well.

    God however,is God and thus is allowed to pretty much be whatever the heck he wants to be.
  61. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:27 am
    Angilion: No, I will be praying to God, not you, get over yourself. Secondly, you`re taking it as an insult, which is not my sentiment.

    God still loves you even if you don`t love him.
  62. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:34 am
    jamie: You`re taking the "Created in his image" thing way too far. I could create an image of Jesus, but it is not Jesus. We are not equal to God, far from it. We are of such small minds that we cannot perceive what it is like to be God.
  63. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:35 am
    @CrakrJak - What Buiadh said :P
  64. Profile photo of Buiadh
    Buiadh Male 30-39
    6739 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:36 am
    "God still loves you even if you don`t love him."

    *Wipes a tear*

    That`s precious!
  65. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:42 am
    lolz religion on here :)
  66. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32813 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:55 am
    It won`t work for me, which is probably for the best given the nature of the commenting...
  67. Profile photo of Buiadh
    Buiadh Male 30-39
    6739 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 12:01 pm
    Truth hurts eh, 5Cats?
  68. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 12:03 pm
    Angilion: No, I will be praying to God, not you, get over yourself.

    Since I didn`t say you were praying to me, your reply is bizarre and misrepresents what I wrote.

    Secondly, you`re taking it as an insult, which is not my sentiment.

    It is an insult. If you think otherwise, you are wrong.

    If, for example, I was to pray to Nudd to make you a Briton or to regard you as a Briton because Britons are superior and everyone who isn`t a Briton needs redemption, that would be an insult even if I genuinely believed I was doing you a favour.
  69. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 12:15 pm
    Angilion: You clearly said, It`s something you do *at* me. Which is fallacious.

    You speak as if my private prayer is an attack on you. Are you that easily offended that no one can think or pray for good things for you ?

    If, for example, I was to pray to Nudd to make you a Briton...

    Honestly, I wouldn`t care and wouldn`t take it as insulting. Disingenuous maybe but not insulting.

  70. Profile photo of maggierose78
    maggierose78 Female 18-29
    688 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 12:16 pm
    Why argue on the internet? Isn`t it rather redundant?

    You are an idiot for believing in this religion mess!
    You are going to hell!
    There is no hell!
    Yes there is!
    Darwin says this...
    God says this...
    Evolution
    Creation
    Religion causes war
    Sin causes war
    Religion is the devil
    Satan is the devil
    I don`t believe in satan
    You just said that religion was the devil

    It is redundant. What do you expect to prove? I have never understood that.
  71. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 12:19 pm
    Angilion: Oh by the way, because your comment of "Britons are superior and everyone who isn`t a Briton needs redemption".

    I never said, Christians were superior. In fact I said we are all sinners, that means me too. I don`t consider myself "Superior" to anyone else, so please don`t go there.
  72. Profile photo of Justahuman
    Justahuman Male 18-29
    109 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 12:37 pm
    Angellion-Christians believes that the lord Jesus died for EVERYONES sins.Even though i go to church every sunday then bible group after,and usually every Wed i go to bible study,Does this mean i think my god loves me more than he loves you? am i superior to you in the eyes of God? NO!!! of course not, we are equals in the eyes of God.The lord died for you like he did for me.
  73. Profile photo of Justahuman
    Justahuman Male 18-29
    109 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 12:40 pm
    Angilion-When someone says they are gonna pray for you its not out of pity for you,its out of love and goodwill.

    @LillianDulci-You said something that i thought was interesting about you would rather go to hell than heaven cause there are "inteligent" ppl in hell.Do i need to buy you a dictionary so we can look up the difference in meaning of heaven and hell? I guess you like doin what the cool kids are doing xD.To me it seems to be illogical to choose eternal torment over Eternal happiness and knowledge.And do you really think god is ok with ppl killing in his name? Personally i think hell is overflowing with those types,But then again i leave that to god its not my place to even ponder peoples judgment after they die since i am a christian i have sin, and i belong in hell as much as anyone.
  74. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 12:44 pm
    Justahuman, nice assumptions man. My feelings are, if someone can be an extremely good person. The picture of perfect, really. And still go to hell because they don`t believe in a being who hasn`t provided any true proof of its existence. Well, eternal torment or not, I`d still rather not dedicate my life to such a cruel being. I`d rather be with the other good people who simply didn`t believe in a specific god. Eternal torment in hell or eternal "life" in heaven, neither seem truly appealing to me. Though it`s impossible to comprehend eternity.
  75. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 12:45 pm
    And I didn`t mean just people murdering other in the name of god. Even something like denying people equal rights, even if it doesn`t physically harm them, in the name of a god is awful.
  76. Profile photo of YANKmyDOODLE
    YANKmyDOODLE Male 30-39
    771 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 12:48 pm
    @maggierose78 that is spot on. no religious person should pray (or equivalent) for other people or get them to convert etc. that is up to them to do if they please. no atheist should call people stupid for believing in god, unless it causes them to be a bad person. the only thing that matters is that you be good.
  77. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 12:56 pm
    Lol Angilion. I think you`re reading too much into it. He didn`t suggest that he was praying to turn you into a Christian. He only suggested that he would pray to God to watch over you even though you`re not a Christian.

    It`s like praying to God to end war or famine. There`s not a qualifier on that such as "end famine but only for Christians", it`s "end famine for everybody regardless of their belief".

    Sometimes when people do things, it`s selfless. I doubt that scientists develop cures for disease in order to convince people to believe in science. Basically a Christian praying for a non-Christian is the equivalent of saying "Hey there God, I know this guy who doesn`t believe in you, but he`s still pretty decent and tries to be a good person. Maybe you could overlook the whole atheist thing and take care of him too."

    Quite frankly I think it`s silly to get upset at somebody for wanting things to go well for you.
  78. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 12:56 pm
    "To me it seems to be illogical to choose eternal torment over Eternal happiness and knowledge."

    To me it is illogical and immoral to eternally torment someone for a finite crime, especially a thought crime like denying Jesus is god.

    Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
    Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
    Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"

    Annie Dillard, "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek"

  79. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 12:59 pm
    Lillian, only backwards extremist Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell. Most Christian beliefs (or at least the protestant ones) believe in a God who lets everyone into heaven so long as they did everything they could to live a good life. What you believe doesn`t matter so long as it leads you to be a good person.

    It`s just the loudmouth Christians who cling to medieval understandings of faith who actually pray to convert people.

    On a completely unrelated note, I think bras for cows is a great idea. I`m offended by the sight of a naked udder!
  80. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 1:04 pm
    @maggierose78

    I can`t speak for everyone else, but I join in to try and show that some of us Christians are open-minded, believe in scientific facts such as evolution and don`t hate non-Christians. I completely accept that just about everyone is going to ignore me, but if I can convince even one person to approach faith with a degree of tolerance and adopt a "I disagree with you but I don`t think you`re an idiot" position, then I`ve made the world better by a single person.

    In short, I like these debates because it gives me a chance to promote tolerance instead of constant disagreement.

    Also, cow bra.
  81. Profile photo of maggierose78
    maggierose78 Female 18-29
    688 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 1:07 pm
    Kilgore, you have a weird sense of humor, I like that, but I believe that is a bull.
  82. Profile photo of PinkRhoid
    PinkRhoid Male 18-29
    1239 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 1:11 pm
    only backwards extremist Christians believe that non-Christians go to hell.

    Sorry but I would estimate that about 90% of the people I have ever known who are Christian believe just that. That would mean people who believe as you do are the exception not the rule. I for one am with you in that if God exists and is truly fair than that is the only logical way to be fair. Simply put I would love to believe in God and that there is more to it all but for whatever reason I simply can`t accept it, not truly, and I refuse to lie and claim faith I simply do not have like so many do. I would find it pretty unfair that I was made this way and then punished eternally for being incapable of faith without honesty.
  83. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 1:12 pm
    Yeah, I just noticed the horns. So to top it all off, the cow is a crossdresser. See, if we weren`t debating religion on the internet, I would never have known about sexually deviant bovine.
  84. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 1:12 pm
    Kilgore89, if that`s the case, then I have nothing to worry about. No reason to believe your god exists, since there`s no true evidence, and when I die, according to you, as long as I lead a good life then I`ll go to heaven. I`m fine with that. But my point was toward the gods that supposedly sentence people to hell for simply not believing. If that`s the case (and there are many people who believe that) then I`d rather be in hell with the "bad" people for eternity than to be in heaven with the morons for eternity.
  85. Profile photo of maggierose78
    maggierose78 Female 18-29
    688 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 1:14 pm
    Kilgore, I use to argue (and sometimes I still do) on the Internet. I am a Christian and I do not like it when people bash my religion, especially when I mention something about God in a positive light. I will get 30 or so posts from people telling me that my beliefs are stupid. I felt like it was my job to win God`s battles for him. I have since come to realize that he does not need me to win his battles for him.
    About the internet arguing thing, most people are just drawing facts from the internet. Most of the facts that they draw from are from bias websites that have the specific purpose in mind to promote and disprove a particular belief or religion. One person said this, and someone chose to believe it. They posted it online, and so on and so on and so on. It is like that rumor game that they use to play in school. The teacher tells one person something and by the time it gets to the last person it is something completely different.

    That is why facts on the n
  86. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 1:19 pm
    @PinkRhoid

    You should move out of the US. Us Canadians are much more religiously liberal... well, I guess we`re just more liberal in general.

    Anyways, I hope that more people eventually come to my understanding of God as being tolerant of all those who try to live good lives. I am disgusted at the notion of a God who discriminates against people who are doing what they believe is right.

    I also have the utmost respect for people who say things like "I wish I could believe in God but..." and are able to express a personal reason because it is clear that they have at least made the effort to understand before dismissing.

    If you`ve ever seen Ricky Gervais talk about religion you`ll know what I mean. He says that he doesn`t believe in God because it makes no sense to him. He also though points out that he wishes he could. Even more important, he argues that there is nothing wrong with believing because religion encourages people to be bet
  87. Profile photo of maggierose78
    maggierose78 Female 18-29
    688 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 1:19 pm
    facts on the net really need to be studied, and not quickly quoted to prove a point.

    Plus why argue on the internet. I am certain that 99% of the people arguing here would not dare say half the things that they write on here to someone who opposes their belief system. If you are not willing to say it in real life, why say it on the net.
  88. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 1:26 pm
    Well Lillian, I suppose that technically if God discriminates against people who don`t believe in him then I`ll be joining you in hell myself since that`s not the God I believe in.

    Here`s why I don`t believe in a discriminatory God. I look at Christianity and all the different interpretations. Even if one of them is 100% "right" about God, that means all the other ones are "wrong" and would therefore go to hell. Then I consider all the people who are non-Christian. Since God doesn`t talk directly to everyone, that means only those who by fluke stumble into the "right" belief get to go to heaven and the other 99% of the people on Earth go to hell.

    According to the Bible, God is supposed to love us all. Also, hell is eternal punishment. Therefore it is a logical inconsistency for a God of love to send most of the people he loves to hell. Therefore, God must be merciful and tolerant otherwise he defeats his whole purpose.
  89. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 1:36 pm
    And yeah maggie, you`re definitely right about the fact that people always say things on the internet they never would to your fact. You`re also right that most of the arguments are just regurgitated from biased webpages. It`s sad that people can`t use thier own arguments.

    I think you`ve hit the nail on the head too since I do tend to get my back up against the wall when people attack Christianity. That being said, I don`t see it as God`s work to try and dissuade the intolerance, I just see it as something that I can do to make the world a better place.

    Since it`s predominantly extremists who make their voices heard most, the cycle of discrimination and intolerance just keeps going. My hope is that by taking a few minutes out of my day here and there to spread some tolerance, those of us who are reasonable in our approaches to differences can make a positive difference.
  90. Profile photo of maggierose78
    maggierose78 Female 18-29
    688 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 1:47 pm
    I do not know who goes to hell or who goes to heaven, and I do not pretend to know. The only thing that I know that is true is that if you believe in God, and you do your best to do his will, everything else will just fall away. It does not matter about all of the little religious practices and differences in beliefs (I am speaking about Christian Denominations and their differences, I do not even begin to try to understand the various religions and beliefs). I just believe that a basic belief in God is all you need, the little details are inconsequential. I firmly believe that Jesus is the only son of God, and I am trying my best to live in a way that he would want me to live.
    I also know that I can never live up to God`s standards, but Jesus died so I wouldn`t have to. I do not understand it all, but I do believe it. If you do not believe that then fine, but it does not hurt for me to say that this is what I believe.
  91. Profile photo of Discobiscuit
    Discobiscuit Male 18-29
    542 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 1:47 pm
    Jolly good sport this is!
  92. Profile photo of aalleexx
    aalleexx Male 40-49
    7 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 2:28 pm
    Huh? So the narrator refutes an argument, and then uses exactly the same argument in the other direction? Certainly demonstrates that fanatics of any persuasion fail at the reaoned argument test.
  93. Profile photo of Croc_Dad
    Croc_Dad Male 18-29
    20 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 2:31 pm
    "Than", not "then". -_-
  94. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3336 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 2:55 pm
    Christian "god" can and does do evil. just read the book
  95. Profile photo of JimmyJohhns
    JimmyJohhns Male 18-29
    1 post
    February 26, 2012 at 5:54 pm
    So if im understanding this correctly, we are to have no meaningful choices as all choices result in the same good, whether we chose waffles or pancakes we end up fed. As to us having more freedom then the first cause; well a computer programmer can make entities that can do things he will not, or at least i haven`t heard of anyone from rockstar games killing hookers and stealing police cars.
  96. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32813 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 6:10 pm
    So I had this dream (at night) a while back.

    In this dream was a book. In that book was a LONG discussion between God (the Being who created the Universe) and the main charecter.
    In that dream book I learned a LOT about my beliefs and such.

    God created this universe (he`d made lots more before this one) AND He made Rules for Himself to follow too.

    If you look at things that way, that God has to follow His Own Rules too, things make a bit more sense. Not religions, but things in general, eh?

    As for `eternal damnation` I think that`s bogus.
  97. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32813 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 6:19 pm
    Free Will: every living thing has it.
    The Future: It doesn`t exist yet. God has a REALLY good idea of how it will turn out, BUT He doesn`t (or chooses not to) control it.
    Omnipotence: God created everything, case closed.
    Omniscience: He knows everything that currently IS. He has a very good idea what will happen in the future.
    The Soul: Many living things have one. It can die or be born inside a living thing too, so be good! That`s the #1 way to take care of your soul (or grow one if you don`t have one already).
    "Created `Man` in His own image": God wants intelligent life to make MORE life! From scratch, like He did. Any idiot can `clone` something DUH! But to make new life (with a soul in it) IS the ulitmate reason God created the universe in the first place.
    Evolution: The way God helps us be better than we were 1000 years ago.

    I could go on and on... lolz!
  98. Profile photo of thatjimguy
    thatjimguy Male 30-39
    459 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 6:55 pm
    taking things literally with religion causes much grief
  99. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 7:19 pm
    Ugh... what a messy comments section.

    Well luckily science already has a perfectly reasonable explanation for free will, so I`m just going to dismiss everything here...
  100. Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 7:32 pm
    5Cats, you seem to know the mind of God. How could you possibly know all that? How do you know the future doesn`t exist? How do you know God is Omnipotent/Omniscient? How do you know what the soul is? How do you know what God wants?

    Since those things are unknowable by their very definition, it seems that in reality you are projecting what you want your God to be. I think the reason you believe in His existence is because you want him to exist.

    I do not know if He exists, but I do know that your vision of God is false based on how your vision contradicts reality.
  101. Profile photo of thelonious
    thelonious Male 40-49
    3284 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 8:11 pm
    Is this the stupid "why aren`t we all still in the garden of perfect floking eden" argument that still doesn`t make any sense? Yeah, looks like it. Everything should be perfect all the time blug bluh bloo derp, otherwise, ergo, no god nice proof.
  102. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14621 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 8:12 pm
    Maggie, your beliefs are not stupid. They are carefully crafted lies spun and agrees upon by the Council of Nicea. It is Christians who are stupid for believing in those clever lies.
  103. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 9:14 pm
    The animation is nice, but there is STILL no god. Sorry.
  104. Profile photo of Chaosmaster
    Chaosmaster Male 30-39
    234 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 9:23 pm
    I had very different answers to his questions before I even heard the answers given.

    Can God do evil? Yes, but he chooses not to.
    Why is there evil? Because a person cannot be properly judged by their actions if their choices are limited to only good and neutral options.
  105. Profile photo of lordfoobar
    lordfoobar Male 30-39
    79 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:19 pm
    The error in this argumentative is the word "cannot". Any sane person would not hurt (i.e. molest, do harm) a child. It brings nothing good for both the offender and the offended child. And children do learn by mistakes and positive reinforcement. For example, learning to ride a bicycle means falling down until you get it right while encouraged by parent (or someone else); unless we have learning ports as in The Matrix, no one can learn somethings for another person, nor force/induce learning upon someone else. How would anyone learn.. to learn?

    Now, regarding letting evil being done, as @Chaosmaster said, there cannot be true a choice without "all" the choices (aka. if there are only positive outcomes, how can one really choose? A game like Chess could not exist, for example). So there must be a restoration (Revelation 21:1-5, see also Luke 16:19-31) and a judgement (John 5:29). You can`t introduce the freedom of choice without judgement and restoration.
  106. Profile photo of swoop408
    swoop408 Male 18-29
    1754 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:47 pm
    Luckily, God doesn`t exist. Btw, Christians borrowed all their beliefs and holidays from Pagans to begin with. Your religion is fake.
  107. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 10:49 pm
    Kilgore89, what you said is pretty close to how I`ve felt for a while. I don`t believe in any god, I don`t have any reason to, there`s no proof, etc. If on the off chance I`m somehow wrong, the only god I`d be willing to worship for eternity or whatever it is that gets done in heaven, is one who would accept people to heaven or w/e for being good people regardless of if they believed in his/her existence. Otherwise, I`d rather be in hell with all the good people who happened to not be of whatever religion ended up being right.
  108. Profile photo of xerch
    xerch Male 18-29
    195 posts
    February 26, 2012 at 11:51 pm
    Apparently, I know better the english language THAN the mods on IAB
  109. Profile photo of zombieraptur
    zombieraptur Male 18-29
    57 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 12:15 am
    I luv the internet. It converts one new person from religion to reality every few minutes.
  110. Profile photo of SoCal
    SoCal Male 18-29
    650 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 2:10 am
    I like the argument, If god is good and the devil is evil than why is god the only one that kills people in the bible and the devil doesn`t. Or something along those lines. you get the point
  111. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 2:28 am
    SoCal: God doesn`t kill people, sin kills people and the devil tempts people into sin and their doom.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
  112. Profile photo of YANKmyDOODLE
    YANKmyDOODLE Male 30-39
    771 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 3:30 am
    @CrakrJak sins don`t kill people, actions do. sins are only the representation of bad actions. that`s like saying guns kill people, when in reality people kill people.
  113. Profile photo of lordfoobar
    lordfoobar Male 30-39
    79 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 3:38 am
    @YANKmyDOODLE, just like spirits can be broken, spirits can be killed. Sins do kill spirits (as in spiritual death, etc.). For example, just like alcohol intoxicate and ultimately kill the body, sin does the same to the spirit. (Yes, I just compared beer with sins. :))

    A sin is an immoral act (thus action), BTW.
  114. Profile photo of Dutch-Master
    Dutch-Master Male 18-29
    52 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 3:59 am
    Everytime i read CrakrJak`s posts it reminds me how America probably is the most religious and probably dumbest nation in the western world.
  115. Profile photo of Izaq
    Izaq Male 30-39
    173 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 6:38 am
    "Sin kill people"
    It is always a very lucky coincidence when a tsunami or earth quake strikes that only sinners were there to be killed.

    CrakrJak - Thank you for reminding us that the world is so simple when you switch off your brain.
  116. Profile photo of collegebound
    collegebound Male 18-29
    3745 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 6:57 am
    Dutch-Master: makes me wish i wasn`t Christian almost...
  117. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 8:32 am
    God created evil, that is why it is there. Why did he create it? We`ll have to ask him when we see him I guess. LOL
  118. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 9:48 am
    Izaq: It amazes me when non-believers blame God for earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, etc.
  119. Profile photo of imnakdjumpme
    imnakdjumpme Male 18-29
    598 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 10:39 am
    if a god did set this whole thing up, i would never be able to love it. Lets create a bunch of sensitive, jealous animals together and allow them to experience constant pain and suffering so we can test them to see if they will love me? The christian/jewish/muslim God says to fear him and also love him. idk if that is possible to fear and love something at the same time, but i would question anyone that thinks we are such guinea pigs for someones master plan.
  120. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 11:01 am
    "Izaq: It amazes me when non-believers blame God for earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, etc."

    If god didn`t do it, then who did? The devil? In which case god could stop it, unless the devil is more powerful than god. Or if you just say it`s something that happens naturally, technically your god still has the ability to stop it and choosing not to is pretty much as bad as causing it in the first place.
  121. Profile photo of tatripp
    tatripp Male 18-29
    1196 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 11:16 am
    This video makes a lot of assumptions, and you will miss them if you aren`t careful
  122. Profile photo of viperjason
    viperjason Male 18-29
    68 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 12:09 pm
    A) God can do evil and chooses not to.
    B) It is not Gods job to fix every evil in the world, otherwise man would be even lazier and would not learn from its mistakes.
    C) Earthquakes, Tsunamis, etc, are not in their nature evil. If God prevented them, then the knowledge that they afford would be lost upon everyone. So in that sense, earthquakes are good and so why would God stop them?
  123. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 12:19 pm
    "So in that sense, earthquakes are good and so why would God stop them?"

    Tell that to people who have lost family and friends due to natural disasters.
  124. Profile photo of viperjason
    viperjason Male 18-29
    68 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 12:27 pm
    @LillianDulci
    Stop being such a bleeding heart. Look at the event as a whole instead of a few well picked sob stories.
  125. Profile photo of imnakdjumpme
    imnakdjumpme Male 18-29
    598 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 1:17 pm
    A) God can do evil and chooses not to.
    by sitting there with indifference, he is doing evil, (if hes not indifferent, he is either enjoying our suffering or he created us so he could teach us a lesson, which makes the least sense)
    B) It is not Gods job to fix every evil in the world, otherwise man would be even lazier and would not learn from its mistakes.
    So he created us and now he allows evil to teach us a lesson? Was god really so lonely and resentful that he would need to create such a scenario?
    C) Earthquakes, Tsunamis, etc, are not in their nature evil. If God prevented them, then the knowledge that they afford would be lost upon everyone. So in that sense, earthquakes are good and so why would God stop them?
    So if natural disasters arent evil, then god made them and thus he kills millions of people a year to teach us a lesson. And tell me again, how that is not an evil thing to do?

    ur belief does not add up. only humans could have made this c
  126. Profile photo of viperjason
    viperjason Male 18-29
    68 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 2:20 pm
    @imnakdjumpme
    You view death as a bad thing?

    For every question you posed, you also provided your own answer. A father lets his child out into the world and will comfort the child when the child returns. The father feels the child`s pain and joy but will not intervene. For if the father intervened then the child would not be living their own life but their father`s. The father is not evil for doing nothing and is in fact doing good by letting his child chose their own path.
  127. Profile photo of imnakdjumpme
    imnakdjumpme Male 18-29
    598 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 2:53 pm
    viper,

    I see your point but the premise is off.
    It is more like if your father created a self-supporting torture device that he let loose on you until you die of old age or the torture device and doesnt do anything to intervene to help you learn some lesson, (or sometimes does help out if you pray hard enough or if he feels the need).
    Also, at least with a real dad, he wont be parenting you your whole life, or at least you have the choice to move out. Not with god though. God convicts you of things that you think in your head and wont leave you alone even after you die. what a horrible idea!
  128. Profile photo of cheeseb
    cheeseb Male 30-39
    254 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 2:59 pm
    There is a bigger paradox here, I feel
    1.God doesn`t want us to be robots
    2.God gives us free will
    3.God knows everything
    4.God knows how many will choose evil, even to the extreme of eternal damnation
    5.God says (by way of the Bible) that "narrow is the gate and few will enter" into salvation. Meaning the majority will face eternal damnation, apparently by their own choosing
    6.This is something God knows before he creates Man
    Claim: God sacrifices the majority of people to eternal damnation, so the few that are saved will be saved by their own choosing rather than being forced to choose. However, had God decided against the whole "free will" bit, everyone would experience salvation.

    I have a very hard time understanding how so many people claim such a fundamental adherence to something so convoluted (See Occam`s Razor and Copernicus`s explanation of the rotation of the heavenly bodies).

    When one supposes there is no go
  129. Profile photo of InTheNameOf
    InTheNameOf Male 30-39
    335 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 3:24 pm
    One persons evil is anothers good.
  130. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 6:06 pm
    Cheeseb:

    You make an excellent point. According to all the priests, pastors and reverands I have talked to, god can be understood only to the point that the theologan is able to rationalize the answer, then god becomes a mystery and unknowable....it is very convienient.
  131. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 8:19 pm
    imnakdjumpme:
    His premise was a bit off. It`s less like a father and a son than an inventor and his creation. God has created an enormously complex system. Is he morally responsible for the quirks and occurrences within that system? If a bolt breaks on your ball joint and your car veers off and hits a kid, is Ford responsible?
    I don`t think God really knows what earthquake is going to hit where, unless he causes it, and He doesn`t do that any more.
  132. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 8:26 pm

    There is NO paradox here, I feel
    1.God doesn`t want us to be robots
    2.God gives us free will
    3.God knows almost everything
    4.God has a good idea of how many will choose evil, even to the extreme of eternal damnation
    5.God says (by way of the Bible) that "narrow is the gate and few will enter" into salvation. Meaning the majority will face eternal damnation, by their own choosing.
    6.This is something God knows before he creates Man, as he knows the nature of Man.
    Claim: God sacrifices the majority of people to eternal damnation, so the few that are saved will be saved by their own choosing rather than being forced to choose. However, had God decided against the whole "free will" bit, everyone would be robots and God would spend eternity with boring automatons..

    Would you want to spend eternity with people who decided against you and went so far as to blame you for all their problems, whether or n
  133. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    February 27, 2012 at 8:28 pm
    Would you want to spend eternity with people who decided against you and went so far as to blame you for all their problems, whether or not you loved them? Would you allow your adult children to hang around if all they`ve done is disrespect you? Would you want to spend forever with that? Would you stop loving them? (The correct answer is no) Why should God be any different?
  134. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    February 28, 2012 at 2:52 am
    There is still no god. Check in later when reality stays the same.
  135. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    February 28, 2012 at 10:09 am
    "Would you want to spend eternity with people who decided against you and went so far as to blame you for all their problems, whether or not you loved them? Would you allow your adult children to hang around if all they`ve done is disrespect you? Would you want to spend forever with that? Would you stop loving them? (The correct answer is no) Why should God be any different?"

    If there was no proof of my actual existence I think I could deal with my creations doubt and not torture them forever, and I am a flawed human being. Apparently I am more moral than the god you describe. I also find it interesting that you say god does not cause earthquakes `anymore`. When did he stop, how do you know he stopped and why? I would like real answers with evidence not just conjecture.
  136. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    February 28, 2012 at 10:44 am
    Otto, I misspoke about the earthquakes. I have no proof, only conjecture (such is the case with all things God, where often the only proof is the bible which is usually dismissed as evidence). I withdraw the statement.

    As for you being more moral, is it immoral to punish one you love when they do something you set before them as wrong?
  137. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    February 28, 2012 at 11:26 am
    "As for you being more moral, is it immoral to punish one you love when they do something you set before them as wrong?"

    Yes it is immoral for a number of reasons.

    1. The crime is finite. The punishment is infinite. I would not, and COULD not lock my children (or even my worst enemy) in a torture chamber forever, period, I don`t care what the crime was.

    2. This one you hit on by writing, "such is the case with all things God, where often the only proof is the bible which is usually dismissed as evidence"

    If it is of utmost importance that I (as god) get my message across to my children (their eternal soul) I would make sure there was absolutely no confusion as to my expectations. The Bible is one of THE most confusing and contradictory assembly of writings. It would be immoral to punish ANYONE for doubting its validity.
  138. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    February 28, 2012 at 5:24 pm
    I can`t disagree with part of that. I couldn`t do that either.
    I wouldn`t call it immoral though, just extreme and, it seems, cruel. I only see it from my point of view though. If God tricked people into hell, then yes, immoral. As it is though, it is all laid out. The terms and the consequences. You choose God, or hell.
  139. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    February 28, 2012 at 5:48 pm
    "As it is though, it is all laid out. The terms and the consequences. You choose God, or hell."

    You are under the assumption people can choose what to believe. I would argue people are given information and decide if that information is to be believed or not. Beliefs are not choices. I find UFO reports interesting and even in some cases compelling, yet without better evidence I do not `believe` UFO`s are extraterrestrial. I could be wrong but it sounds like you may be using a version of `Pascal`s wager`. In my opinion I do not find the god of the Bible worthy of worship as he is defined, even if it turned out to be true. Infinite hell is immoral, if I can understand that concept, it should be simple to an all powerfull creator.


    Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. - Thomas Jefferson

  140. Profile photo of VekTorVik
    VekTorVik Male 30-39
    2 posts
    February 28, 2012 at 8:51 pm
    I had to create an account to comment on this. I can`t believe someone has enough spare time to create a video of ramblings complaining about what they consider ramblings. And they were serious. To argue that babies dieing is inherently evil is not correct. It is called life. Bad things happen, that doesn`t make them evil. If you don`t believe in god it is not a problem, but to actually make a video of it. That is evangelism.
  141. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    February 28, 2012 at 10:12 pm
    VekToVik:

    I think the video would possibly make better sense if it used `suffering` instead of `evil`, so the question is why did god create needless suffering? Could he not have created man with free will without needless suffering? It is one thing for man to create his own suffering but there is plenty of suffering that is not man made. It is a philosophical question. Also I don`t see asking the question as evangelism as it does not provide an answer.
  142. Profile photo of TkA
    TkA Male 30-39
    115 posts
    February 28, 2012 at 10:36 pm
    evil came from knowledge.

    God will remove it from us at the time appointed.
  143. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    February 29, 2012 at 9:19 pm
    "You are under the assumption people can choose what to believe."
    This is lost on me. How are we not able to choose what we believe?

    re: Pascal`s wager: This seems logical. It isn`t what I prescribe to though. I`m of the opinion that you can`t half ass faith in God and Jesus that way and expect it to work. Going through the motions may very well, in some cases, blossom into full on Faith and "rebirth" into God, but I think the danger is greater, after a period of time, of deluding yourself into thinking it is enough.
  144. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    February 29, 2012 at 10:26 pm
    jadoig:

    I can`t decide I now believe I can become invisible, or that the sun rises in the west. They are not decisions. Now those are obvious but now take it to religion. Can you just change you mind and decide you believe in Islam? No you would need a reason to `believe`. Now you obviously have personal reasons you believe in Christian dogma, one cannot choose beliefs, one looks at information and forms beliefs off that information. I was raised in Christianity, I went to a Christian school and at one time I belived in it. Now I am an atheist, I did not decide to become an atheist, I started asking questions. I did not find my questions to be properly answered by the priests or other ministers. I looked elsewhere, I did not lose faith, I realized faith does not lead to truth, it leads to unquestioned answers and therefore cannot be trusted. Religion does not like questions.
  145. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    March 1, 2012 at 10:27 am
    This is interesting. I`ve done some reading and this particular topic is yet another wedge driven between theists and atheists (For the most part, from what I found).
    A common atheist viewpoint is that belief is not a choice but a logical conclusion based on evidence. I can understand that yet I don`t know if I agree. It seems to me that we can choose to believe whatever we want, however illogical. I can choose to believe in Santa if I want. That might make me an idiot, but that`s not the issue here.
  146. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    March 1, 2012 at 10:33 am
    I think the issue I`m having is with the seeming misplacement of the word believe. If you had said we can`t choose to know something, I would agree. I can`t choose whether or not I know something is green, it either is or isn`t.
    To recap: I think we CAN choose our beliefs. I do not think we can choose what is true or choose what we know. (But we can choose what we think is true, but then, isn`t that just a belief?)
  147. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    March 1, 2012 at 11:18 am
    "I can choose to believe in Santa if I want."

    You can choose to say you believe in Santa, and probably even tell yourself some rationalizations to convince yourself, like "Santa lives in our hearts". But a person cannot use reason and choose to believe an actual fat man lives at the North Pole and delivers presents to all the worlds children. If you could convince yourself of that you would be delusional and if you have enough delusions you are insane.
  148. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    March 1, 2012 at 11:37 am
    jadoig:

    Outside of your religious views,

    Name one belief you hold about the world that you conclude is true AND you did not use reason and logic to come to that conclusion. If you can name one explain your justification for believing it.
  149. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    March 1, 2012 at 4:32 pm
    Otto: My wife is not cheating on me. I have no evidence she is not, but I`m reasonably sure of what kind of person she is and, though I could be mistaken, she wouldn`t do that. I choose to believe she is faithful because I think I know her, and if she wasn`t, it would hurt and there would be a mess, and I love her. But I do NOT, without any uncertainty, know it.


    I agree, it would be insane to believe in santa, that was merely the first thing that popped into my head. swap it out with Sasquatch, UFO`s (Which ARE real, I see things in the sky I can`t identify all the time). The effect is the same.

    You didn`t comment on my replacing belief with knowledge. I wish you would. I think I`m on to something there.

  150. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    March 1, 2012 at 7:46 pm
    "I choose to believe she is faithful because I think I know her, and if she wasn`t, it would hurt and there would be a mess, and I love her. But I do NOT, without any uncertainty, know it."

    You have come to the conclusion your wife is faithful, I think righfully so. But you based that on reason and evidence, of course you can`t `know` 100% that she is faithful so it is a belief, and a reasonable one. SHe has shown herself to be truthfull and honest over a long period of time. Knowledge is information, belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true. When a claim is made by someone you have to decide if that claim is true, false or you do not have reasonable knowledge to accept the claim, it is undetermined. Making that decision is not a choice. I could choose to accept an undetermined claim as `true` but in reality I would be dishonest (with myself) in doing so.

  151. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    March 2, 2012 at 10:49 am
    I see what you`re saying. One thing catches me though. Perhaps I`m simply misunderstanding...

    "Making that decision is not a choice. I could
    choose to accept an undetermined claim as `true` but in reality I would be dishonest (with myself) in doing so. " Making the decision is not a choice, but the decision itself is (as is any decision) and regardless of whether or not you`re being honest, you still have that option, that choice.

    In that case, Otto, there is nothing, including my religious views, that I conclude is true AND I did not use reason and logic to come to that conclusion.

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