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Category: Misc
Date: 12/10/11 02:00 PM

91 Responses to Turn About Is Fair Play [Pic]

  1. Profile photo of kitteh9lives
    kitteh9lives Female 70 & Over
    8044 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 11:03 am
    Link: Turn About Is Fair Play - In stereotypes and sexism.
  2. Profile photo of andynaylor
    andynaylor Male 18-29
    239 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 2:11 pm
    ahhh, it`s funny coz it`s true... besides who let her out of the kitchen long enough to be able to type that?
  3. Profile photo of JaundiceCake
    JaundiceCake Female 18-29
    674 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 2:12 pm
    What`s the point of this pic? To stir up aggressive debates about sexism? It`s not clever or funny or entertaining.
  4. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36660 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    This was clever, funny, and entertaining.
  5. Profile photo of Smutleybutt
    Smutleybutt Male 18-29
    1377 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 2:33 pm
    I Agree with Gerry 100%!
    Ah and andynaylor is right too!
    Could it be that Jaundice is a frustrated feminist and it`s her time of the month?
  6. Profile photo of Locke357
    Locke357 Male 18-29
    128 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 2:34 pm
    valid point is valid
  7. Profile photo of Crabes
    Crabes Male 30-39
    1285 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 2:37 pm

  8. Profile photo of ruthless1990
    ruthless1990 Female 18-29
    3001 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 3:11 pm
    hah!
  9. Profile photo of reefaleaf420
    reefaleaf420 Male 18-29
    89 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 3:24 pm
    #agreedwithgerry. this is one of the best i-am-bored posts lately
  10. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 3:26 pm
    The commenter is holding a Blue Tip Siamese!!! I miss my cat =(
  11. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 3:26 pm
    "What`s the point of this pic? To stir up aggressive debates about sexism? It`s not clever or funny or entertaining."

    Ahhh is somebody a little ragey because its true....awwww
  12. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 3:39 pm
    That`s a burn
  13. Profile photo of ScottSerious
    ScottSerious Male 18-29
    5316 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 3:46 pm
    ha
  14. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 3:48 pm
    It`s not clever or funny or entertaining.
    That`s your opinion, and your opinion is worthless. Now go make me dinner.
  15. Profile photo of Thetas
    Thetas Male 18-29
    1540 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 4:06 pm
    Haha. Anonymous commenter on Facebook, you made my day.
  16. Profile photo of jacos27
    jacos27 Male 18-29
    246 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 4:08 pm
    I love this. I`m not sexist in anyway. And i usually don`t like those make me a sammich jokes but seriously, this was funny.
  17. Profile photo of jinxiejae
    jinxiejae Female 30-39
    2927 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 4:22 pm
    touche
  18. Profile photo of GuiStuie
    GuiStuie Male 30-39
    119 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 4:36 pm
    This is so drating true. Home wives drating turn me on.
  19. Profile photo of Listypoos
    Listypoos Male 40-49
    3069 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 5:05 pm
    @JaundiceCake

    There is something about a woman in dungarees and lumberjack shirt that most feminists just love...me...I like the ones in doc martins and trained in tuperware destruction, a woman who thinks she`s the best, with power tools, bare hands, strap-ons:) A feminist who`s been trained to ignore men, ignore equality, to live off feminist propoganda, to eat things that would make a hetrosexual non-feminist woman puke. To Kill periods! Hey any feminist that looks like rambo but was trained like a gloria steinem...


    That even things up for you? Sorry.. it was an obvious opportunity for sarcasm but you did invite it with your comment.
  20. Profile photo of GothPirate
    GothPirate Female 18-29
    121 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 5:12 pm
    I don`t get it. I don`t understand why admiring military men is the same as stereotyping women. But hey, the internet doesn`t have to make sense for people to agree with it right?
  21. Profile photo of Aeladil
    Aeladil Female 18-29
    513 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 5:29 pm
    If I had a man like she was talking about, I`d be the woman like he is talking about.
  22. Profile photo of FaLa620
    FaLa620 Male 30-39
    80 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 6:14 pm
    "I don`t get it. I don`t understand why admiring military men is the same as stereotyping women. But hey, the internet doesn`t have to make sense for people to agree with it right?"

    Well for those of us who aren`t in the military, and aren`t in any way like what she`s describing, that sort of thinking is stereotyping too. She`s basically saying that any man who isn`t a killing machine isn`t worth her time. A man doesn`t have to be a tough guy to be a man, in fact some of the most manly guys out there are the ones who aren`t tough guys. Expecting guys to be GI Joe is just as bad as expecting girls to be Barbie. I don`t see what`s not to get.
  23. Profile photo of JUGGALETTEx0
    JUGGALETTEx0 Female 18-29
    1380 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 6:24 pm
    Pshhh....the kitchen isn`t the only place to wear an apron...
  24. Profile photo of Naitsirhc88
    Naitsirhc88 Male 18-29
    392 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 7:17 pm
    Every man wants a woman who is June Cleaver in the kitchen, but Jena Jamison in the sack. Is that too much to ask for? I don`t think so. And if she dressed like I Dream of Jeanie that wouldn`t be too bad either.
  25. Profile photo of GothicQueen
    GothicQueen Male 13-17
    4376 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 8:15 pm
    I see what he did there XD
  26. Profile photo of xelous
    xelous Male 18-29
    2513 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 8:37 pm
    @Juggalette... indeed.
    For a short time anyways.

  27. Profile photo of I-IS-BORED
    I-IS-BORED Male 18-29
    2419 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 9:33 pm
    @FaLa620
    part of being a barbie is they don`t know they`re a barbie
  28. Profile photo of lostinkorea
    lostinkorea Female 30-39
    3727 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 9:36 pm
    Smutleybutt
    Male, 18-29, Southern US
    166 Posts Saturday, December 10, 2011 2:33:40 PM
    I Agree with Gerry 100%!
    Ah and andynaylor is right too!
    Could it be that Jaundice is a frustrated feminist and it`s her time of the month?
    ______

    Could it be that you`ve never had a girlfriend other than your right hand??
  29. Profile photo of lostinkorea
    lostinkorea Female 30-39
    3727 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 9:40 pm
    Why is it that you guys like pathetic and subservient women? Can`t really handle a real woman? I`ve always wondered that....

    Kinda like the guys that take advantage of passed out women, the ones that can`t get any otherwise...

    JUST SAYIN`
  30. Profile photo of Chaosmaster
    Chaosmaster Male 30-39
    234 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 9:41 pm
    My dad served 21 years in the army. He is now the family cook because no one in the house can cook as well as he can. He`s not, nor was he ever, a killer. I consider her words stereotyping.
  31. Profile photo of britt566
    britt566 Female 18-29
    2290 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 9:56 pm
    "If I had a man like she was talking about, I`d be the woman like he is talking about."

    *High five*
  32. Profile photo of mykunter
    mykunter Male 40-49
    2424 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 10:05 pm
    Win
  33. Profile photo of bianchi
    bianchi Female 18-29
    606 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 10:11 pm
    @lostinkorea: Haha I f`ing love you!
  34. Profile photo of Locke357
    Locke357 Male 18-29
    128 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 10:15 pm
    I don`t get why the [email protected] are raging about this . . . it`s simply contrasting two stereotypes. But of course, it`s only sexist if men do it.
  35. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 10:18 pm
    lostinkorea:

    Are you really so insanely sexist that you genuinely regard objecting to sexist stereotyping as being like rape?

    Because right now you look like a bottom-feeding lowlife hypocritical bigot.
  36. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 10:21 pm
    Locker357:

    They don`t like men who are uppity enough to object to sexist stereotyping. They`re sexist hypocrites - that`s why they`re feminists. Feminism is always sexist and almost always hypocritical (some feminists are honestly sexist).
  37. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 10:23 pm
    A addition to that last post. Feminism is always sexist, but not all feminists are. Some are misguided and have been conned by other feminists into thinking that sexism is sexual equality. It`s a profoundly irrational idea, but some people do fall for it.
  38. Profile photo of YANKmyDOODLE
    YANKmyDOODLE Male 30-39
    771 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 10:29 pm
    dumb broads are dumb
  39. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 10:34 pm
    I don`t get it. I don`t understand why admiring military men is the same as stereotyping women. But hey, the internet doesn`t have to make sense for people to agree with it right?

    Try it this way around: I don`t understand why admiring domestic women is the same as stereotyping men. Etc.

    It`s not about a particular personal preference. It`s about gendered roles and stereotyping. If someone regards either preference as equally reasonable, fine. If someone sees one as an offensive stereotype and the other as sexy, not fine.

    His reply was a way of showing that by reversing the stereotype as a rhetorical device.

    Also, an attraction to *killers* is not fine. It`s rather strange and disturbing. It wasn`t soldiers she was getting all excited about, it was *killers*. Her term.
  40. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 10, 2011 at 10:39 pm
    Every man wants a woman who is June Cleaver in the kitchen, but Jena Jamison in the sack.

    No.

    For a start, a fair few men are gay. Of those who aren`t, you`ll find what they consider attractive varies wildly. Because individuals are different. When you lump a few billion people together as one person because they have the same type of genitals, you are being an idiot and your opinion is both less important and more annoying than the yapping of a lap dog.

    My, I`m in a fine mood tonight.
  41. Profile photo of jib
    jib Male 18-29
    314 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 12:50 am
    jesus guys this was a supposed to be a funny post shut up and laugh
  42. Profile photo of ippa
    ippa Female 18-29
    143 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 2:02 am
    Angilion, word.
  43. Profile photo of Atrayu4u
    Atrayu4u Female 18-29
    1478 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 4:39 am
    I can`t express to you all how much I hate the Twitter "#whatever" in Facebook posts.
  44. Profile photo of Smutleybutt
    Smutleybutt Male 18-29
    1377 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 4:45 am
    @lostinkorea
    1) I am married (7 years now thankyou with 2 kids)
    2) Any women offended by this post need to rethink their feelings and let some humor into their lives (it`s a JOKE!)
    3) A WOMAN POSTED IT IDJUTS. GET OVER YOURSELVES, SHE DID!
    AND 4)

  45. Profile photo of Smutleybutt
    Smutleybutt Male 18-29
    1377 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 4:48 am
    AND lostinkorea
    Reread what Angilion said about 100 times. Catch a clue.
  46. Profile photo of Crabes
    Crabes Male 30-39
    1285 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 6:58 am
    @lostinkorea

  47. Profile photo of Armauld
    Armauld Female 30-39
    107 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 11:35 am
    Oh goodness, first of all I have no real problem with the post, but everyone is patting Angillon on the back, and I do disagree with some (but not all) of his statements.
    I agree with him that saying half of humanity is all the same is sheer stupidity.
    I don`t agree that all feminists are either sexist or misguided.
    I think that it`s fair to fight for rights and equality that women worldwide do not have. This isn`t sexism, this is trying to bring all people up to the same level and ensuring better quality of life for all (not to bring men down).
    I also notice that, while angillon has no problem jumping all over anyone who makes an unfair comment about men, he (I`m assuming angillon is a he, that may be unfair of me) jumps all over them, while simultaneously ignoring the dozens of sexist comments about women.
  48. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 2:09 pm
    Get back to the kitchen and leave the computer alone
  49. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 3:46 pm
    I don`t agree that all feminists are either sexist or misguided.
    I think that it`s fair to fight for rights and equality

    And there`s the bit that proves you are either sexist or misguided.

    Feminism is a biological group advocacy ideology. It does not have, never has had and never can have anything to do with equality.

    In order to advocate for one sex, you *must* consider sex to be the defining feature of a person. You can`t advocate for female people without defining everyone on the basis of whether they are female or Other. If you don`t define people that way, you can`t advocate that way. Obviously.

    So feminism requires defining everyone by their sex as a first step in everything. That is sexism.

    More to come...
  50. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 3:46 pm

    It also requires judging people by their sex. Or, more accurately, a collection of sexist stereotypes that followers believe apply to the chosen sex and the excluded sex. You can`t decide that only one sex deserves consideration without judging people that way, obviously.

    That is also sexist.

    And that applies to ALL strains of feminism, right from the most moderate to the most extreme. Those things are inherent in feminism and cannot be removed from it any more than, for example, pro-"white" racism could be removed from whitism.
  51. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32794 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 3:47 pm
    My, I`m in a fine mood tonight.
    I noticed that @Angilion! I just told my cat "Angilion haz an angry!" lolz!

    For IAB`s consideration:

    http://tinyurl.com/d9z8ea8

    Dave Sim`s "Fourteen Impossible Things to Believe Before Breakfast That Make You a Good Feminist"
  52. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 3:51 pm
    I also notice that, while angillon has no problem jumping all over anyone who makes an unfair comment about men, he (I`m assuming angillon is a he, that may be unfair of me) jumps all over them, while simultaneously ignoring the dozens of sexist comments about women.

    i) You obviously haven`t been here long enough to see me doing that.

    ii) Just a couple of posts before yours, I wrote this:

    When you lump a few billion people together as one person because they have the same type of genitals, you are being an idiot and your opinion is both less important and more annoying than the yapping of a lap dog.

    That`s "jumping all over them".

    So maybe it`s not a matter of you not being here long enough. Maybe it`s a matter of only seeing what you can fit into your prejudices.

    You`re a feminist. If it`s not explicitly ONLY about women, you`re unlikely to see it. If it`s sexual equality, you don`t li
  53. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 3:53 pm
    I can`t express to you all how much I hate the Twitter "#whatever" in Facebook posts.

    I avoid all such irritations by not using either.
  54. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 4:00 pm
    Oh, and before anyone comes in with "I`m a feminist and I love a man" arguments, that doesn`t prove me wrong.

    How you treat the tiny handful of men you know is personal.

    How you advocate men in general be treated (or, if you`re a more moderate feminist, simply ignored) is political.

    Political and personal are not the same things. A feminist might (or might not) treat some men as equals of women on a personal scale, but they absolutely cannot do so on a social and political scale (as I described in the last couple of posts).
  55. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 4:05 pm
    Damn! I`ve just clicked on an ad here for something that looked interesting - an ad showing electric cars from BMW. I wanted to find out some more.

    So, the ad went to BMW and some more information and more adverts, right?

    Wrong. It went to a scam site.


    The ad shows 2 cars, the slogan FUR OKOZENTRIKER and the tagline BMW i. BORN ELECTRIC.

    I`m fairly safe because I use NoScript and I`m too cynical to fall for most scams. But other people could be caught by the scam or infected by malware if it feeds any (as some scam sites do).
  56. Profile photo of britt566
    britt566 Female 18-29
    2290 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 5:55 pm
    Angilion, in other words "I`m right. You`re wrong. F*ck you!"

    right?
  57. Profile photo of Armauld
    Armauld Female 30-39
    107 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 6:22 pm
    Angillon, I did mention that I agree with a number of your points. If I have in any way misjudged you I am sincerely sorry.

    Here`s the problem as I see it:
    The world lumps people into genders and defines people by it. Worldwide there are atrocities commited against women. Women are raped, tortured, murdered, married off as children to old men, burned alive so that a man can get a new dowry etc, etc, etc.

    While many atrocities are not gender-specific, there are rarely, if ever, atrocities committed against men alone. So some cultures have judged women as deserving of this kind of treatment.

    I would like to stop this from happening, so I do advocate EQUAL rights for women. However, I would like to see all pain and inequality stopped, be it against man, woman, or child. Maybe I need to start calling myself a humanitarian instead, but when it comes to the genders I do think that worldwide women need more help than men at this point.
  58. Profile photo of Swaywithme
    Swaywithme Female 18-29
    3696 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 7:25 pm
    Honestly, I don`t see a problem with either of these things. There`s nothing wrong with being attracted to the hyped up version of `masculinity` and there`s nothing wrong with desiring a partner that enjoys being a homemaker. If you`re offended by that, then don`t date those types of people.

    I`m that type of girl. I enjoy cleaning my house, I like to bake and I love to cook. I grew up in a household with men who work very physically demanding jobs. I liked to look after them when they came home because I appreciated how hard they worked for the family.

    It`s supposed to be about equality and choice. I would happily choose to be a stay-at home mother but that would be a choice between my husband and I respect a man that would wish the same for himself. That is what equality is supposed to be about.
  59. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 7:25 pm
    Here`s the problem as I see it:

    That`s the key phrase - as you see it.

    What you see is a carefully biased presentation of carefully selected parts of reality.

    For example, when the Taliban were ruling Afghanistan, they were brutal to pretty much everyone. Including men. For example, they issued a general kill order for all men in an area of Afghanistan. Anyone male between 15 and 70 to be killed. But you won`t have seen that, as it wasn`t in the mainstream media. Men were beaten, tortured, killed for things such as not having a good enough beard. But you won`t have seen that either.

    In the mainstream media, I saw just 1 reference to a man being killed by the Taliban and that was only as an example of how a woman was the victim of the Taliban - she lost her husband. His life was treated as having no meaning in itself, because he was only a man. The only value his life had was its value to a woman.
  60. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 7:29 pm
    Then you got the photo editing in which male victims were erased. Can`t have anyone getting the idea that reality is more complicated than male abusers and female victims - they might start advocating sexual equality and human rights instead of feminism.

    Ironically, the source of news I found that was least biased against men was the Revolutionary Afghan Women`s Army, an organisation that completely excluded men other than as wallets and bullet-stoppers for women.

    If women suffer, it`s news.

    If men suffer, nobody cares. So you don`t see it. It doesn`t conform to the deliberate bias, so it`s ignored.
  61. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 7:45 pm
    so I do advocate EQUAL rights for women

    Which means all women getting the same rights as each other.

    If it meant women getting the same rights as men, then (a) it wouldn`t be only about women and (b) advocacy of it couldn`t exist in most of the world because it`s already that way. Name one right that Canadian men have that Canadian women don`t.

    Maybe I need to start calling myself a humanitarian instead, but when it comes to the genders I do think that worldwide women need more help than men at this point.

    Maybe so, but that doesn`t justify sexism everywhere in everything, adopted as the basic framework for everything, i.e. it doesn`t justify feminism.

    I think that help should be based on need, not on sex. I think that rights should be based on being a person, not on what kind of genitals you have. Etc.
  62. Profile photo of lukeforv123
    lukeforv123 Male 18-29
    1058 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 9:26 pm
    What a dumb bitch
  63. Profile photo of Armauld
    Armauld Female 30-39
    107 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 10:11 pm
    Angillon, once again, many of your points are spot on, however there is a hint of semantics in there as well.

    When I said I advocated EQUAL rights for women I did not mean in relation to other women, I meant equal rights for men and women (and all races, religions etc.) world wide, just general equal rights for all human beings.

    If you read between the lines in my posts you may have picked up that I wasn`t really talking about the western world. I think there are still things that are unfair to both genders in the west, but it sort of is a new world order that we are living in and it`s going to take time to sort things out so that they are even for everyone.

    By the way, yes, the way news is covered everywhere is askew and more emphasis is put on sensationalism than giving a balanced view of what really happened.

    A bigger deal is made when a boy is molested than a girl.

  64. Profile photo of Armauld
    Armauld Female 30-39
    107 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 10:18 pm
    When a man murders his wife and child(ren)(at least in North America) it makes the news, but barely (unless the woman is pregnant, for some reason). When a woman murders her children here it becomes a three-year-long sensation. So I think the media is to blame (as they are with the reporting of mens` deaths in Afghanistan.

    I may be misinterpreting you, but it seems that you are saying that any recognition of gender is sexist. We should all just be treated as humans. Ideally, I completely agree, the problem is that the rest of the world still catagorizes us and discriminates. I did point out that there are many atrocities commited based on things besides gender, but it does seem that where men have it bad, women generally have it worse. Also, helping women seems to be an amazing way of helping the whole society because it improves sanitation, child nutrition and birth control.
  65. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 10:20 pm
    When I said I advocated EQUAL rights for women I did not mean in relation to other women, I meant equal rights for men and women (and all races, religions etc.) world wide, just general equal rights for all human beings.

    But that doesn`t actually make any sense.

    "women" and "all human beings" don`t have the same meaning at all, except to someone who thinks that only women are human beings, i.e. that children and men aren`t human beings. Which isn`t what you think.

    It`s not semantics, or at least not a pointless exercise in semantics. Words mean things. When they`re used to shape societies and politics, the meaning of them is very important. There is a difference between advocating for a group and advocating for equality.
  66. Profile photo of Armauld
    Armauld Female 30-39
    107 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 10:22 pm
    I guess in the end, there`s more than enough world problems for everyone to pick an area that they feel needs improvement and work on it. Mine may be on womens` issues. Yours could be on any thing that is near and dear to your own heart. I`m just happy to see people trying to make the world a better place for everyone in it.
  67. Profile photo of Armauld
    Armauld Female 30-39
    107 posts
    December 11, 2011 at 10:25 pm
    "There is a difference between advocating for a group and advocating for equality". True.

    However, certain groups have been systematically denied equal rights. I would like to work on bringing these groups up to par with everyone else. I honestly don`t want more rights for anyone.
  68. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 6:21 pm
    I guess in the end, there`s more than enough world problems for everyone to pick an area that they feel needs improvement and work on it.

    But you`re not picking an area. You`re picking a group of people. That`s a completely different thing.

    However, certain groups have been systematically denied equal rights. I would like to work on bringing these groups up to par with everyone else. I honestly don`t want more rights for anyone.

    Then why advocate social and political consideration only for people in one group? That`s counter-equality, so it`s counter-productive to your stated goal.

    I think my position can be summarised like this:

    Equality is the means as well as the end. The *only* way to get equality is equality. You can`t use sexism to get sexual equality, or any other kind of irrational discrimination to end that kind of irrational discrimination.
  69. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 6:28 pm
    Also, helping women seems to be an amazing way of helping the whole society because it improves sanitation, child nutrition and birth control.

    I deliberately didn`t reply to this yesterday because, to use the lovely phrase from the net, it gives me rage.

    Claiming that defining people by their sex and denying help to those who need it but are of the "wrong" sex is an amazing way to help everybody is so profoundly sexist, patronising and offensive that I`m finding it difficult to make a rational reply.

    I`ll use the technique in the screenshot that started this thread - illustrating that a casually accepted prejudice is prejudice by showing the same prejudice against a different group.
  70. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 6:34 pm
    N.B. The following is NOT, REPEAT NOT, my opinion. I am arguing AGAINST this opinion.

    Helping only men and denying all help to women, regardless of how much they need it, is an amazing way of helping the whole society because it improves farming, sanitation, child nutrition, birth control and healthcare.

    Farming: Obviously, as that`s the main help needed for long-term usefulness.

    Sanitation: Water and waste management is part of farming, but has obvious beneficial effects on sanitation.

    Child nutrition: When a man can farm, he can feed his children better.

    Birth control: Applies to all adults. When a man has a stable life, he`s more likely to use it.

    Healthcare: Condoms reduce the spread of STDs. Also, the food and sanitation benefits from farming have massive healthcare benefits.

    As you can see, your statements can be applied to "justify" the same sexism you`re advocating, but against women. With suppor
  71. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 6:34 pm
    Gah, cut off early as usual.

    ....with supporting argument, which you didn`t have.
  72. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 6:36 pm
    So, does this mean that only men should be helped, that only men should be given consideration on a social and political scale, that only men should be considered when making laws, domestic policy and foreign aid?

    Hell no. That would be as bad as what you`re advocating, in fact it would be the same thing <---- THIS IS MY POINT HERE.
  73. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 6:43 pm
    I`ve argued with some genuinely sexist people over the years. Not fools aping some internet meme about sandwiches and kitchens, which they don`t mean. Not ordinary feminists, sexist though they are. Not advocates of old gendered roles and bullpoo stereotypes, sexist though they are. Really, seriously sexist people.

    Far and away the most common factor in their sexism was sexism. The anti-female sexists cited anti-male sexism as "justification". The anti-male sexists cited anti-female sexism as "justification".
  74. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 6:46 pm


    Sexism breeds sexism. When you raise generations of male people and tell them they don`t matter because they`re the wrong sex, it *will* cause anti-female sexism. And yes, that is what you`re telling them when you advocate that social and political consideration be given to female people only, that aid be given to female people only. Even if you think that it will help men as a side-effect, like peasants being given leftovers from the Lady of the manor`s dining.


    The only route to sexual equality is sexual equality. Sexism causes sexism, simple as that.

    but it does seem that where men have it bad, women generally have it worse.

    If that`s true and not just a false impression created by the deliberate bias of the media, sexual equality would fix it. Giving help on the basis of need, not sex, would fix it. Sexism fixes nothing. It just makes more suffering.
  75. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 6:48 pm
    OK, got all that off my chest. Not that I expect people to have read the wall of text. I needed to vent.

    There are very few things I`m passionate about, but sexual equality is one of them. It`s not just a good idea, it`s sanity.
  76. Profile photo of Armauld
    Armauld Female 30-39
    107 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 7:15 pm
    Here`s what I think of your arguments (and I`m just an uneducated dumbass so it`s only a personal opinion):

    Your arguments seem to make complete sense in theory. In theory it would be lovely if we were all treated equally and if there`s a problem area in the world, the rest of the world should rush in and try to make it better for everyone.

    However, it seems like you are ignoring reality and living in a simpler, theoretical world. The truth is that there are groups of people who have been and are being discriminated against. If no one fights for these groups of people, their lives WILL NOT get better. Certain ethnic groups have been "cleansed" womens` rights have been crushed, religious people have been persecuted. So we are not starting on an even playing field here.

    To quote you, "sexism breeds sexism" so, surely centuries of sexism that women have faced has earned us a little time to focus on our own needs, or does it only apply t
  77. Profile photo of Armauld
    Armauld Female 30-39
    107 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 7:23 pm
    Or does this argument only apply to men? The truly sexist men out there aren`t sexist because I`d like to fight infanticide in little girls, or see women having the right to education and birth control. They are sexist because they are bitter that they aren`t allowed to own and abuse women any more. There are white people who are bitter because they can`t own slaves any more, should we blame black people for that?

    And no, as biased and silly as the media can be, women do have it worse. They just made it a law in Pakistan (and by just I`m talking the last few days) that you are no longer allowed to throw acid in a woman`s face because she doesn`t want to marry you. In the next few years there will be a crisis in Asia because China and India have aborted or killed off all of their baby girls. Who are the boys that are now nearly grown going to marry? The list of atrocities that are committed against women are nearly endless.
  78. Profile photo of Armauld
    Armauld Female 30-39
    107 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 7:31 pm
    I choose to go over to a third world country and teach basic health to women, (I`ve done volunteer work in Guyana and Haiti, so this isn`t just theoretical), if you or any man wants to go over and teach farming practices to the men, fantastic! There is only one of me, so there`s only so much I can accomplish (and honestly, my area(s) of expertise don`t apply that much to mens` work, so there would be little value in me spending my time there).

    Once we level the playing field a bit, then we can raise everyone up together but I think it`s patently unfair to ignore the horrible amount of dangerous, violent sexism that already exists in the world and then complain when someone wants to stop it.
  79. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 8:24 pm
    Once we level the playing field a bit, then we can raise everyone up together but I think it`s patently unfair to ignore the horrible amount of dangerous, violent sexism that already exists in the world and then complain when someone wants to stop it.

    And I think it`s unfair to use it as an excuse for more sexism.

    We have fundamentally different points of view, with no common ground.

    Helping people based on need also works against any irrational discrimination, because if it causes more need in a particular group then they`ll get more help.

    So your objection to my position has no real basis. You just prefer sexism.
  80. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 8:30 pm
    if you or any man wants to go over and teach farming practices to the men, fantastic!

    My point of view really is totally alien to you, isn`t it?

    I went out of my way to SHOUT IN BIG CAPITAL LETTERS that IT WAS NOT MY POINT OF VIEW.

    And yet you still think it`s my point of view, because all you can see is your own point of view. You can swap the sexes round, but that`s still the same point of view. And it`s your point of view, not mine. My point of view is not the same.

    I`m running out of ways to say that.
  81. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 9:50 pm
    Having thought it over, I am being a too harsh.

    We have very different ideas about what should be done, but you`re not advocating sexism everywhere all the time. You think it`s a good thing for an indefinite amount of time, but apparently only in some parts of the world. You`ve probably seen too much bad stuff firsthand, given where you`ve been, and that`ll affect anyone`s point of view.
  82. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 9:53 pm
    I have a monthly donation to a charity that mainly does aid to help people not need aid any more. e.g. a civil war ends and people can return to their land, but they can`t farm it without the essentials. Give them seeds, tools, animals, irrigation systems and education and they can get back on their feet.

    The thing that struck me was that they helped according to need. One of the people in one of their leaflets was a youngish man! I`d never seen a youngish man in a charity leaflet before, only women, children and elderly people. He got help farming, like I referred to above. So did one of the women in the leaflet, as she was also a small-scale farmer. A teacher got stuff for her school. Etc.

    Help according to need. That`s what I support.
  83. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 10:02 pm
    To quote you, "sexism breeds sexism"

    Or does this argument only apply to men?

    No, because (rather obviously, I would have thought), I don`t think women are superior to men.

    As I said before:

    Far and away the most common factor in their sexism was sexism. The anti-female sexists cited anti-male sexism as "justification". The anti-male sexists cited anti-female sexism as "justification".

    It doesn`t just apply to men. There are men who will see antimale sexism as justification for antifemale sexism. There are women who will see antifemale sexism as justification for antimale sexism. There are men who will see antifemale sexism as justification for antimale sexism.

    There are probably some women who will see antimale sexism as justification for antifemale sexism. I`ve never seen that, but there are probably some.
  84. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 11:13 pm
    There are white people who are bitter because they can`t own slaves any more, should we blame black people for that?

    That has no relevance to anything I`ve written, but I`ll answer it anyway.

    The blame for irrational prejudice lies with the people who have that irrational prejudice. People are responsible for themselves.

    Poverty causes burglary. That doesn`t mean that that victims of burglary are to blame for being burgled by someone who`s poorer than they are. It means that more poverty means more burglary. But it`s still burglars who are responsible for burglary.
  85. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 11:21 pm
    A general example:

    Humanity is split into group X and group Y, where each is effectively defined as being not the other group.

    There is irrational prejudice and discrimination against group X. People in group X know they are being unfairly treated solely for being in group X.

    Some of them will become irrationally prejudiced against "the other", i.e. not-X, i.e. group Y.

    There is irrational prejudice and discrimination against group Y. People in group Y know they are being unfairly treated solely for being in group Y.

    Some of them will become irrationally prejudiced against "the other", i.e. not-Y, i.e. group X.

    Does that mean people are not responsible for their prejudices? No.

    Does that mean that anti-X prejudice and discrimination causes anti-Y prejudice and discrimination and vice versa? Yes.

    It`s not about who started it, especially when all of the people who started it are long dead. I
  86. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 11:21 pm
    Cut off again:

    ...It`s about stopping it.
  87. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 12, 2011 at 11:29 pm
    Gah, this bit was supposed to be in the post after the one I put it in:

    Poverty causes burglary. That doesn`t mean that that victims of burglary are to blame for being burgled by someone who`s poorer than they are. It means that more poverty means more burglary. But it`s still burglars who are responsible for burglary.

    I`m writing >1000 character posts and then cutting and pasting into seperate posts. I got the cut point wrong.
  88. Profile photo of Armauld
    Armauld Female 30-39
    107 posts
    December 13, 2011 at 12:30 pm
    Making long comments on here is bloody annoying. :)

    It seems to me that you contradict yourself a little and when I respond to that contradiction you say I`m making no sense.

    For example, you wrote about speaking with real sexists (not the type of guy who makes bad jokes, but the type that gun down women in a gym or engineering class because they are so angry). It appeared to me that you were blaming their feelings/actions on women because, "sexism breeds sexism". My point was that these guys are the type of men who enjoy owning and probably abusing the women they own (who have absolutely no recourse but to be abused) and, I for one, will not go back to being owned just to avoid pissing these guys off (that was why I brought up the whole black/white slave thing).
  89. Profile photo of Armauld
    Armauld Female 30-39
    107 posts
    December 13, 2011 at 12:36 pm
    I also realize that you don`t want to go and teach farming or other things to men only because you feel you want to help everyone not just men or just women.

    My only point repeating the farming thing was because I can only do so much. There needs to be a division of labour. So if I`m off helping the ladies, I have no problem with someone also helping the men. That isn`t discrimination, it`s just splitting up the work. It doesn`t even have to be men helping men, if a woman with good knowledge of agricultural practices wants to go and help out, I`d be delighted (I`m just not that woman, I do know a lot about health and pregnancy though). One of the jobs I did in Guyana was help with immunizing children. I didn`t just immunize the girls. I genuinely would like to see better health for the whole community.
  90. Profile photo of Armauld
    Armauld Female 30-39
    107 posts
    December 13, 2011 at 12:45 pm
    I completely get your point about helping those who need the help and not worrying about what group they belong to (be it gender/ethnicity/religion etc.).

    But, like you also pointed out, I`ve seen a lot of crazy stuff in my life. It is my opinion that it is women that need the most help, I could be wrong about that.

    I guess the only thing that bothered me about your arguments (with the exception of some misunderstandings) is your dismissiveness of how badly women do have it out there. Just because the media sensationalizes some things does not mean that there isn`t very real suffering out there. The suffering, death, rape and torture that women go through in some of these cultures makes it hard to go with the, "lets just help everyone equally" argument. Even if your objective is to help everyone, ignoring reality isn`t (in my opinion) the best way to go about it.
  91. Profile photo of Armauld
    Armauld Female 30-39
    107 posts
    December 13, 2011 at 12:52 pm
    Oh, and there are TONS of pro-male sexist women. Good Lord, they are everywhere.

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