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Category: Science
Date: 12/28/11 02:20 PM

144 Responses to America`s Science Decline – Neil deGrasse Tyson

  1. Profile photo of kitteh9lives
    kitteh9lives Female 70 & Over
    8044 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 2:07 pm
    Link: America`s Science Decline - Neil deGrasse Tyson - Peer reviewed science research being done in the U.S. has gone down drastically since 2000 compared to other countries
  2. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36643 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 2:27 pm

    Research in the U.S. is limited to capitalist need. There has to be a foreseeable profit within a short time frame or we don`t do it.

    U.S.A. ... I`m glad I got to see it when it was still great. Sad I have to witness the decline.
  3. Profile photo of Buiadh
    Buiadh Male 30-39
    6739 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 2:59 pm
    Well said Gerry.
  4. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 3:15 pm
    Very sad, but what`s even sadder is, it`s not very surprising. According to a recent poll 43% of Americans believe that "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so."

    Sorry, but these kinda things don`t bode well for a country`s scientific output.
  5. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 3:18 pm
    It`s not the U.S.`s fault. It just got out of the shower and the water was a little cold.
  6. Profile photo of EricWRN
    EricWRN Male 30-39
    590 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 3:43 pm
    Yes of course someone was going to blame religion, because of that`s the popular and trendy thing to do, but religion has lost subscribers in the US in the last 10 years so clearly it`s not religion that`s making us less scientific. Shouldn`t we be more scientific because we`re less religious than 10 years ago, right??? I mean everybody knows that when you stop believing in God you instantaneously become a brilliant astrophysicist.
  7. Profile photo of Spaztazoid
    Spaztazoid Female 18-29
    152 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 3:51 pm
    Speaking of peer reviewed, where are the references for these numbers?
  8. Profile photo of yoda141
    yoda141 Male 18-29
    266 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 4:05 pm
    Well.. at least my country grew a little.
  9. Profile photo of BlankTom
    BlankTom Male 30-39
    1674 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 5:26 pm
    interesting - according to a recent poll 100% of Americans surveyed said that davymid is an idiot.
  10. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 5:35 pm
    davymid: Belief in God has little to do with scientific innovation davy. Many Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, and Europeans have active religious lives. Your correlation fails.

    Also your current country shrinks down to nearly nothing, so physician heal thyself first.
  11. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 5:38 pm
    Hey, I`m not "blaming religion", just pointing out the stats. And I`m certainly not doing so because it`s a "popular and trendy thing to do", I`m doing so because I care passionately about the subject and thing it`s damn important. Sure, religion is a large part of it, but so is a general decline in effective scientific teaching in schools, less university graduates in sciences etc. And no, I`m not US-bashing, my home country of the UK is suffering from exactly the same "dumbing-down" in many ways.

    Besides, although there may be less "religious subscribers", some studies (published in the journal Science) show that the percentage of people in the US who accept the idea of evolution has declined from 45% in 1985 to 40% in 2005.
  12. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 5:39 pm
    All this despite vast advances in genetics over the same period. Something`s wrong with that picture, is all I`m pointing out.
  13. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 5:53 pm
    davymid: Once again you contradict yourself with, I`m not "blaming religion" and then say Sure, religion is a large part of it

    We get it, you`re an atheist that believes that religious worship is antithetical to science. But, you do "US bash" on a regular basis here on IAB, as well as, "Christian Bash" regularly. Both seem to be the center of blame for the world`s problems in your ethos.
  14. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14620 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 6:21 pm
    America does not need science. In the future, you`ll pray away all your ailments like cancer (or pay the North Asians for your meds).
  15. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 6:29 pm
    Draculya: Bad troll, bad! Now get back to your bridge.
  16. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 6:41 pm
    "Belief in God has little to do with scientific innovation"

    Belief in god has had a LOT to do with stifling scientific innovation.
  17. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 6:48 pm
    Otto: Newton and Einstein both believed in God, many other famous scientists have as well.

    So you`re talking out of your proverbial ass.
  18. Profile photo of Angelmassb
    Angelmassb Male 18-29
    15511 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 6:56 pm
    Is anyone surprised by this?
  19. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 7:06 pm
    Crakr: You are seriously saying religion, which is the belief in god, has not stifled science, and continues to do so? Just because some scientists have believed in god does not refute my point in any way.
  20. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36643 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 7:25 pm

    So the predictions for Africa aren`t good then...
  21. Profile photo of grindinblade
    grindinblade Male 18-29
    234 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 7:37 pm
    @CrakrJak Einstein didn`t believe in God as you are trying to make it seem. He said he doesn`t believe in an intervening God (ie the Christian view), calling it a childish belief. He was agnostic and believed that although we can observe the laws of physics we know little about what causes them and why they arose. He contends this may be caused by God, but it is impossible to know. "I believe in Spinoza`s God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."
  22. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 7:58 pm
    "Newton and Einstein both believed in God"

    It`s likely that Newton was a deist, but I`m not sure there`s any conclusive evidence on that.

    However, Einstein rejected both the concepts of a personal god and an afterlife. Wikipedia entry.
  23. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 8:07 pm
    "Yes of course someone was going to blame religion, because of that`s the popular and trendy thing to do, but religion has lost subscribers in the US in the last 10 years so clearly it`s not religion that`s making us less scientific. Shouldn`t we be more scientific because we`re less religious than 10 years ago, right??? I mean everybody knows that when you stop believing in God you instantaneously become a brilliant astrophysicist. "

    First, I agree that not all religion is anti-science.

    And indeed, then number of non-religious people in the US may be increasing.

    However, there`s also a trend where the number of fundamentalist and literalistic religious followers in the US is rising.

    THESE are the people who deny science when the facts disagree with their 2000 year old book.
  24. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2345 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 8:19 pm
    GOPers can deny deny deny but this is clearly due to them and their 10 year battle on science starting with Bush Jr.

    go ahead republicans, deny it all you like, but Bush cut fundiing and outlawed about everything science that he could.

    your extreme religious BS was welded as a weapon against the very thing that made America great, innovation.

    so thank you aholes, you ruined us financially and put us behind the rest of the world in so many ways in just 10 years...you aholes.

  25. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2345 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 8:22 pm
    CrakrJak

    if the shoe fits buddy.

    I am a believer in God, but you and what passes for Chrtistians these days remind me much more of what passed for them in the middle ages. That is, closed minded fools that HATE everything different than them and hate even more anything to do with science.

  26. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 9:01 pm
    that`s fuxing stupid
  27. Profile photo of Tatung42
    Tatung42 Male 30-39
    46 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 9:26 pm
    I don’t now how it is in other countries, but the problem in the U.S. is that most of research that happens at universities is funding by government funds and not from the private sector corporations that ultimately apply the finding of research in the real world.

    The result is that there is a big disconnect between what is going on at universities and what industry actually needs.

    In my field (hydrogeology), it is pretty frustrating when I try to use the most cutting edge technology, but then ultimately revert back to using 20 year old technology, which actually works.
  28. Profile photo of eovogt
    eovogt Male 18-29
    197 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 9:47 pm
    This is because America is spending way too much on war then spending money practically
  29. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 10:40 pm
    This is because America is spending way too much on war then spending money practically
    You say that, but Saddam Hussein had WMDs capable of crippling America in direct mass bio-nuclear-chemical-warfare missile attacks. After all, he was behind 9-11, the bastard. We`ll find those WMDs eventually! Right? Wasn’t that the rallying call?

    *OR*, maybe America could have spent those billions or Trillions of dollars on something worthwhile, like science education, healthcare, tax reductions for the people who need it (hint: Not drating oil companies), etc, back home. Just pointing out there’s a problem here.

    And every problem has a solution, but the solution to this problem isn’t “Let’s have more religion!
  30. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 10:40 pm
    ust looked this fact up, not because of politics, but because I like playing Battlefield 3 on the xbox. Did you know that a single Javelin missile costs upwards of $40,000 dollars? I didn`t. And I fire dozens of those bastards in every game I play, and not a single f*ck is given. But that`s just a game.

    Look, I just want the species to survive. That’s all. We’ve come this far. It would be deep, lasting shame to have our species wiped out because we decided to follow some Bronze-Age book of fables over proven, rational, provable, scientific advancement.

    Evolution is real, dickheads. It happens, get over it. America is becoming stupider than I ever thought it would. And the sooner America rejects those ‘tards who deny basic goddam life and earth science, the sooner they’ll start to catch back up with China.
  31. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 11:02 pm
    "the problem in the U.S. is that most of research that happens at universities is funding by government funds"

    Actually, that`s not that big of a problem.

    The issue there is the extent that the government has cut back on funds.

    But also, in terms of private sector research, it`s easily shifted over the last few decades from viewing R&D as an investment to viewing R&D as a cost - and not only a cost but a risky one. After all, there`s always a chance that your R&D will yield nothing you can use.

    And in addition, the patent system isn`t helping the business environment. Just in terms of the cell phone market, each company (Apple, RIM, HTC, Samsung, Motorola, Google, etc) have about an even split of patents so that none of them can sue the other. So essentially, it`s impossible to enter the market unless you are already in the market.
  32. Profile photo of paperduck
    paperduck Male 18-29
    1745 posts
    December 28, 2011 at 11:30 pm
    as a scientist, i can tell you that most of the research done in china is absolutely worthless.
  33. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 1:07 am
    Skine: In your own link, "...there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views." - Albert Einstein

    "God is a mystery. But a comprehensible mystery. I have nothing but awe when I observe the laws of nature. There are not laws without a lawgiver..." - Albert Einstein

    And Einstein rejected the idea that there is a conflict between science and religion.

    He wasn`t an atheist and rejected that label, nor did he believe in a `personal God`, but he was still a deist.
  34. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 1:13 am
    Otto: Religion does not stifle creativity, curiosity, imagination, or science. That atheist libel has been used for over a century now, and this last century has been the most creative in the history of mankind, and there are more churches now then there were then.
  35. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 1:58 am
    jamie: The only thing GW Bush did was ban stem cells from aborted fetuses. Which as it turns out, we now can create better stem cells from adults anyways.

    Also, science funding increased every year while GW Bush was in office.

    Your libel against Christians is complete unprovable crap. Christians don`t hate science, they hate atheists and liberals pushing their BS ideologies into schools against the parent`s wishes. That is why parochial schools continue to grow, and the kids educated in them get better test scores than those in public schools.
  36. Profile photo of Baelzar
    Baelzar Male 40-49
    1399 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 2:04 am
    Two words: Teacher`s Unions.

    It ain`t about the kids anymore.
  37. Profile photo of xiquiripat
    xiquiripat Male 18-29
    2422 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 2:23 am
    "this last century has been the most creative in the history of mankind"

    It`s also been the most bloody. What`s your point?

    Christians don`t hate science, they hate atheists and liberals pushing their BS ideologies into schools against the parent`s wishes.

    Those atheist and liberal parents hate Christians pushing THEIR BS ideologies into schools against their wishes too.
  38. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 2:32 am
    xiquiripat: It`s also been the most bloody. What`s your point?

    Actually, in terms of percentage of global population, both the 19th and 18th centuries were much bloodier than the 20th century. The innovations of antibiotics and vaccinations alone have saved more people than were killed in all the 20th century wars.
  39. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 2:44 am
    xiquiripat: Also, if liberals and atheists don`t like what is being taught in public schools, they can make the decision to enroll their kids in other schools or home school them, just as many conservative parents do, Instead of filing stupid lawsuits all the time.
  40. Profile photo of Saxonius
    Saxonius Male 30-39
    7 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 3:42 am
    CrakrJaK: Christians don`t hate science
    I respectfully beg to differ. What you really meant was that Christians don`t hate the technologies the scientific process has brought them. FYI science is not about the invention of fancy gadgets it is about discovering the fundamental processes that underlie our perceived reality. And this is exactly what you and your fellow believers of all kinds deeply reject.
    Furthermore is totally beside the point whether Einstein or some other scientist was a believer. No one in a physics seminar studies his views on skydaddy. His legacy are equations which shattered old beliefs and not some personal opinions on philosophy and religion.
  41. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 6:13 am
    CrakrJak, I`m an atheist (which simply means that I don`t believe in god(s), not that I`m anti-god), and I`m certainly not against any single faith, or you, or any other religious adherent, but, for you to seriously state that Christians have (as a voting movement) done anything other than send backwards education, science, knowledge of provable, observable, repeatable laws of the world, you`re kidding yourself. State all of the skewed half-truths you want. The proof is in the pudding.
  42. Profile photo of QualityJay
    QualityJay Male 18-29
    303 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 6:20 am
    Baelzar speaks truth. I say give people school choice and make it easier to fire teachers for doing a sh.it job like they did with me in highschool. College was a difficult reality check.
  43. Profile photo of QualityJay
    QualityJay Male 18-29
    303 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 6:23 am
    saxonius. your prejudice of Christians is showing. But we are a minority on the net. what can I say? one more thing:
    Down with science! The earth is flat! Dinosaurs never existed! medicine is evil!.... lol
  44. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 6:26 am
    @davymid

    You seem to conveniently overlook the fact that the UK participated in both wars too. Your bias shines bright.
  45. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 6:39 am
    McGovern1981, the UK has participated in Iraq and Afghanistan with about as much effort and conviction as the US has concerned itself with the plight of endangered animal around the coral reefs of Australia. If you want to go after davymid for bias, at least gig him on something in his posts that was gig-worthy.

    Now, sure, perhaps I`m biased, too, as I happen to agree with davymid wholeheartedly. But, even still, I think I know a good rebut when I see one. And yours, IMHO, fell far short in this case.
  46. Profile photo of Saxonius
    Saxonius Male 30-39
    7 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 6:55 am
    @QualityJay: You`re almost right. But I`ve no prejudice against Unitarians. They are harmless. It`s the Evangelicals, Baptists, Catholics, Pentecostals, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Mennonites, Methodists, Charismatics, Neo-Charismatics, Adventists, Mormons(not sure whether it`s OK to include them)and so on that make my heart fill with sweet delicious prejudice.
  47. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 7:01 am
    @SmagBoy1

    As of June 2010 UK costs exceeded £20bn for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars combined.The UK lost about 179 servicemen and women. Not as much as the US yes but that`s particapating pretty actively if you ask me.
  48. Profile photo of QualityJay
    QualityJay Male 18-29
    303 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 7:36 am
    Saxonius: I got news for you. Christians are harmless. And Unitarians are not Christians.

    Jamie: I assume by GOPers you mean christians. What "everything science" did Bush outlaw? Besides stem cell research...

    We put us behind the rest of the world in 10 years? The nation has become LESS religious, not moreso. your argument is invalid.
  49. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 8:19 am
    @Davymid I`m disappointed in you, you should play better games. Those FPSs are all the same.

    @Crackr Your ignorance may be a reflection of the video content.

    I found this very disturbing. If the US is declining in science, then it is rapidly loosing its edge. It`s out researched by europe, outproduced by China, it doesn`t have oil, what`s left? A military? There`s no use in that.
  50. Profile photo of Mr_Pedo_Bear
    Mr_Pedo_Bear Male 70 & Over
    997 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 8:41 am
    @SmagBoy1 Relative to our size as a country UK has participated and pretty wholeheartedly in the wars or Iraq and Afghanistan. Also the biggest contribution of anyone who is not USA. Appreciate you not belittle my countries contribution whether entry was right or wrong!
  51. Profile photo of Mr_Pedo_Bear
    Mr_Pedo_Bear Male 70 & Over
    997 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 8:45 am
    Yes, those who say that science flourished under religions like Islam and Christianity can never provide any causal link or give any reason why religion would help with scientific progress.

    Arguing the other makes more sense because their very premises are irreconcilable. The basis of science and the scientific process is evidence and research. Religion is based on fiction and imagination. Faith is inherently without any evidence or explanation. Science has its foundations in explanations and empiricism.

    Historically too, science is known for debunking religions nonsense every step of the way. Religious clergymen have for centuries contributed in no significant way, or have their good deeds nullified by the ignorance they spread.
    Religion thus inhibits rational thought and logic, effectively holding back science
    http://www.nobeliefs.com/comment
  52. Profile photo of AtheistAlien
    AtheistAlien Male 30-39
    809 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 8:55 am
    Lets just get rid of religion. They are the ones that are hindering science in America.
  53. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 9:00 am
    Crakr:

    "Religion does not stifle creativity, curiosity, imagination, or science."

    When a large portion of the US denies evolution, and believes in a young earth creation which is taught by some religions, that has the effect of stifling science. Those people push to have intelligent design taught as if it is just as factual as evolution even though there is NO proof for intellegent design. There are smart people who are studying fairy tales and zombies as if they are real when they could be studying science, and those people encourage others to to the same.
  54. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 9:05 am
    Saxonius, jamie, SmagBoy: None of you have given any specifics as to what science has been `lost` or `set back`, vague general references and blaming Christians for everything isn`t proving anything.

    All the knowledge we`ve ever gained is still out there and easily accessible (with the exception of maybe the top secret classified parts, like building missiles and nuclear bombs).

    No science has been lost, no books have been burned, no scientists executed, no universities destroyed, at least not in America. Just don`t ask us to fund things that are morally reprehensible or speculative `junk science`.

    Crappy science has even been used to wrongly convict people in court,Link, it`s important that science research is done right and that it`s not biased. No field of science should be so certain, of it`s conclusions, that it can escape skepticism.
  55. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 9:18 am
    Otto: Is science so rigid and inflexible now that it can`t withstand competing ideas ?

    The history of science is littered with competing ideas, it has furthered science as a whole and made it better. Science has seen lots of popular trends over the centuries, many of them were disproved and others confirmed.

    Unfortunately today, science only progresses one coffin at a time, mainly because of the stubbornness of a few at the top that won`t allow competing ideas.
  56. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 9:37 am
    None of you have given any specifics as to what science has been `lost` or `set back`
    You incredible fool. Take another look at the video.
  57. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 9:41 am
    Crakr:

    If you think Intellegent Design in anyway "competes" with evolution you are delusional. There is NO proof for it. If anyone who thinks Intellegent Design should be taken seriously all they have to do is offer some PROOF that can be tested and verified, short of that it is just conjecture and in no way is a "competing idea"

    "Science has seen lots of popular trends over the centuries, many of them were disproved and others confirmed."

    Name one "trend" in science that was disproved
    by religion or anyone outside of science, or even one scientist that used his belief in a higher power to prove something is true.
  58. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 9:46 am
    "No field of science should be so certain, of it`s conclusions, that it can escape skepticism."

    I absolutely agree with this, and science has a built in mechanism to be skeptical of itself.

    Now would you say the same thing of religion?

    "No religion should be so certain of it`s conclusions that it should escape skepticism"
  59. Profile photo of furryblob
    furryblob Male 18-29
    574 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 10:22 am
    Not really surprising when young Earth creationists are pushing science out of the classroom in favour for Intellegent Design and such. Soon the bible might be the only textbook allowed in schools.
  60. Profile photo of Baelzar
    Baelzar Male 40-49
    1399 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 11:28 am
    Religion is a huge straw man in this argument. I`m an atheist, and I`m telling you religion is not the cause of this - none of you have given an OUNCE of proof to the contrary.

    It`s math. Chemistry. Physics. You cannot be a scientist without a fundamental understanding of these things, and our educational "system" is broken.
  61. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7552 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 11:40 am
    The USA has been battling to keep ID or creationism out of its classrooms- but even basic science is taught by those who think the bible is factual, No wonder- I would be interested to see how it breaks down state by state as some areas are worse than others. If the 45% I have read about that do not accept evolution actually exist they must be gathered together in a few areas.
  62. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 1:24 pm
    madduck: Education quality in America breaks down along which states are poorer (worse grades) and which are richer (better grades), If it`s broken down by counties, then it`s evident that the inner cities, even in the rich states, are doing horribly. Parochial schools do better overall, no matter what state they are located in.
  63. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 1:27 pm
    "Religion does not stifle creativity, curiosity, imagination, or science."

    I agree that it is not necessarily the case that religions stifle these things.

    However, it necessarily takes a religion - or another strongly held ideology - in order to stifle them.

    In the US, this comes predominantly from the extreme fundamental religious culture that has currently taken hold in large areas of the country.

    Just looking at the number of people who think that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old should make it blatantly obvious that science is being stifled.
  64. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 1:35 pm
    "Is science so rigid and inflexible now that it can`t withstand competing ideas?"

    Science is many things, but it isn`t rigid and inflexible.

    Its weakness, though, is that it expects disproven and inherently unprovable ideas to be abandoned, or at least relegated to the world outside of science classrooms and the scientific community.

    Science can`t deal with ID, for example, since it is inherently unprovable (shy of the creator stepping forward), and inherently is not disprovable. I suppose that you could say that science is too inflexible if it can`t allow for such things, but that would be fairly silly, since including such things would discredit all science has achieved.
  65. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 1:36 pm
    otto: science has a built in mechanism to be skeptical of itself.

    Then it`s broken, we`ve had two climategate scandals now, involving the IPCC, and the mainstream science community keeps making lame excuses for their dishonest data manipulation.

    What will physicists do if they can`t find the Higgs-Boson, after they spent $9 billion dollars on building the Large Hadron Collider ?

    At what point do we say enough is enough, when billion dollar projects lead to little if any positive results ?

    Don`t get me wrong, I`m not against spending money on scientific research, but let`s apply it smartly instead of wasting it.
  66. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 1:51 pm
    "Then it`s broken, we`ve had two climategate scandals now, involving the IPCC, and the mainstream science community keeps making lame excuses for their dishonest data manipulation."

    So I see you`ve taken Fox News at face value.

    Both "Climategate" scandals boiled down to absolutely no dishonesty, nor data manipulation.

    At best, it showed that some climate science researchers are annoyed at people who don`t agree with them.
  67. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 1:58 pm
    And it`s asinine to think that scientific results are or should be practical and immediately useful.

    The basic premise of science is that expanding our knowledge in all directions may lead to potential benefits, by increasing our understanding of the universe. Hell, some of the math done by Ancient Greeks wasn`t useful to mankind until the 1950`s. That doesn`t mean that the Greeks were wasting their time and money, though.

    As far as the LHC goes, EVEN IF it fails, particle accelerators are still useful. Hence why Fermi is still up and running even after the LHC was built.

    But your attitude is exactly why the US is waning in terms of science; if we don`t see an obvious, immediate, tangible benefit, we view it as a cost instead of an investment.
  68. Profile photo of Saxonius
    Saxonius Male 30-39
    7 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 2:02 pm
    CrakrJak:it`s important that science research is done right and that it`s not biased. No field of science should be so certain, of it`s conclusions, that it can escape skepticism.

    Thank you for describing the scientific process. Science isn`t a static thing. It`s constantly moving and revising itself. It`s welcoming constructive criticism i.e. you have to back your critic by reproducible arguments. But for someone who adheres to one of the thousands of Christian creeds there`s absolutely no way one could constructively criticize the existence of god or depending one`s denomination other things (e.g. divinity of Christ, ordination of women, the trinity and so on). Such criticisms would put one immediately outside of Christianity or a certain Christian group.
  69. Profile photo of mikeygryph
    mikeygryph Male 18-29
    10 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 2:12 pm
    CrakerJack: Don`t get me wrong, I`m not against spending money on scientific research, but let`s apply it smartly instead of wasting it.

    "Today we still yearn to know why we are here and where we came from. Humanity`s deepest desire for
    knowledge is justification enough for our continuing quest. And our goal is nothing less than a complete description of the universe we live in."

    Then maybe we should not spend any money on the regions contributing nothing to the advancement of humanity as denoted on this map, and let them die off since most of them can`t even sustain themselves. At the same time, take all the religious fundamentalist that are working to derail and decrease the output America and other countries have been giving in the advancement of science and humanity and put them in those regions.

    It would be the best option for humanity and this planet as a whole; least environmental stress and maximum output of scientific progress.
  70. Profile photo of steve41high
    steve41high Male 18-29
    1153 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 2:45 pm
    US science research has gone down incase they accidentally stumble upon even more evidence that climate change has/is/will occur and might actually have to do something about it
  71. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 3:01 pm
    skine: Then why has their original data set failed to produce the dramatic `hockey stick` graphs they published ? Why did they use terms in their e-mails like "hide the decline", "deleting e-mails", and "using tricks". Real scientists do not hide their data, delete their e-mails to avoid freedom of information requests, or use tricks to manipulate the results.
  72. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 3:05 pm
    In case you want to know more about where I`m getting my information, Forbes
  73. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 3:59 pm
    CrakrJak, for the love of god, stop being an idiot. Like any group, scientists develop their own jargon. In fact, you will see terms such as "trick" used commonly throughout peer-reviewed papers.

    Your scientific illiteracy does not discredit the research and consensus of the entire scientific community.
  74. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 4:55 pm
    CrakrJak, I wasn`t specific because, as I said, there is no point in being so. If I mention anything dealing with human reproduction (which is a vast swath of research with tons of different topics and areas of study), climate change, biology, pretty much anything dealing with life on the planet that`s been scientifically demonstrated to be over a few thousand years old, I guess I`m getting into morally reprehensible `junk science`. Bush limited funding in all of those areas, and, in several areas where he didn`t limit funding, he did so against the party. When the argument against fact is "it`s junk", what`s the point of even having a discussion?
  75. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 5:03 pm
    Ms. Pedo Bear, while I`ll agree that the UK has participated, I argue that your saying they`ve done so "wholeheartedly" is pure hyperbole. I mean no belittlement, and I`m certainly not questioning the capability or skills of your country`s military. I was speaking about the realities of relative cost and resources. That`s all I was saying. You know, percentage of GDP, etc.? And I certainly don`t mean to belittle any contribution, even the smallest one. But, if something is small, relatively-speaking, is it wrong to respectfully say so?
  76. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 6:04 pm
    Crakr:

    Science is not perfect, it is however the best way we humans have found to verify what is true and what is false. It is ironic and intellectually dishonest that you criticize science for being imperfect but defend religion when there has never been any verifiable proof of the rediculous claims of religion or more specific to you, Christianity. You can claim the skeptical mechanism of science is broken but at least it has one, religion does not even make the attempt.

  77. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 6:07 pm
    Yaezakura: That has to be one of the lamest excuses I`ve ever heard for the climategate scandals.

    Seriously, `jargon`, is what you`re going with ? LOL

    Btw, I graduated college with a science degree, and if you even bothered to read up on some recent `climate news` you`d realize that more and more scientists are jumping ship away from `Global Warming`, there is no consensus now, and there never was, that was a big whopper of a lie told by Al Gore.

    But go ahead and continue to be scare mongered into believing their BS.
  78. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 6:32 pm
    Otto: Science demands solid proof, of itself. If that `proof` turns out to be manipulated for political gain or financial gain, then it`s worthless.

    Faith doesn`t need proof, that`s why it`s called faith. You`re trying to say Christianity doesn`t help the world, and I`ve proved, even to Davymid, that Christianity does benefit the world, in many ways.

    The science of evolution led to a political campaign of eugenics and social darwinism, in the early 1900s, that eventually justified fascist and communist regimes that killed tens of millions of people, began the second world war and the cold war after that.
  79. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 7:15 pm
    Here is a good video explaining the two sentences out of the multitude of emails that seemed even somewhat questionable.

    Essentially, for "Mike`s nature trick" which "hides the decline," IN CONTEXT, they`re talking about tree rings disagreeing with actual measured temperatures. The tree rings seemed to show a decline in temperature, while thermometers seemed to show an increase.

    As for the other comment, it was the opinion of a single person, that he had already fleshed out in a peer-reviewed paper.
  80. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 7:26 pm
    "The science of evolution led to a political campaign of eugenics and social darwinism "

    No.

    That`s blatantly false.

    I`ll agree that people used the term "Social Darwinism" to justify their actions and beliefs.

    I won`t agree that Darwin`s discovery of natural selection CAUSED eugenics or genocide.

    And I think this is where the argument ends, and with you losing it by default, according to Godwin`s Law.
  81. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 8:48 pm
    What will physicists do if they can`t find the Higgs-Boson, after they spent $9 billion dollars on building the Large Hadron Collider ?

    At what point do we say enough is enough, when billion dollar projects lead to little if any positive results ?

    Don`t get me wrong, I`m not against spending money on scientific research, but let`s apply it smartly instead of wasting it.

    Since you so clearly demonstrate your total lack of understanding of even the most highly publicised scientific work currently being carried out, you are obviously not competent to judge what scientific work should be funded.

    The purpose of scientific research is *not* immediate production of products. That`s what R&D departments of businesses are for.
  82. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 8:48 pm

    With your attitude, we wouldn`t even have electricity, let alone all the things that use it. That`s just the most famous example of pure research without any preconceived practical purpose. Almost everything we have has its roots in blue sky research.
  83. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 8:53 pm
    Just in case there`s anyone reading this who doesn`t know and can learn:

    i) The LHC isn`t just looking for the Higgs boson. There are a multitude of experiments going on there and even the ones involving the Higgs boson are looking for knowledge, not the Higgs boson per se.

    ii) If they don`t find it, they will have found the hugely important knowledge that it doesn`t exist, which has major implications for understanding how all matter works. They know the circumstances under which it might exist. The LHC is the only piece of kit capable of testing all those circumstances. So it can deliver a definitive answer.

    Now...does anyone really think that knowing how matter works on a fundamental level cannot possibly ever lead to anything useful?
  84. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 8:57 pm
    CrakrJak, let me be absolutely clear on this: The world is getting hotter. There is no debate. It is a fact. Climate change is happening, as it has happened in the past and will happen for as long as the earth exists into the future.

    What is debatable is exactly how much humans are contributing to the change. How much of the change is entirely natural and beyond our control? How much is directly caused by our actions? These things aren`t yet known, and what large swaths of research are attempting to figure out.

    That doesn`t, however, mean nothing should be done in the meantime. Research into alternative sources of energy is essential regardless, as fossil fuels are a finite resource with greater demand every day. And sustainable practices in industries such as foresting and fishing ensure those industries actually have a future.
  85. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 10:07 pm
    A word to the wise: I stopped debating with Crakrjak a while ago. He "schooled" me, in his mind, on my own scientific expertise of oil and gas exploration (PhD Geoscientist here, currently Director in my organisation), by posting some random sh*t about waterfalls from Wikipedia. Full link HERE, for those with the inclination to read it.

    Crakrjak is an ultimate dick, and I don`t say that lightly. There are very few people that I would openly point to and say: "There be a Dick".

    Realise, that people like him are the reason the US is f*cked. I wish it were different, I really do.
  86. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 10:16 pm
    The science of evolution led to a political campaign of eugenics and social darwinism, in the early 1900s, that eventually justified fascist and communist regimes that killed tens of millions of people, began the second world war and the cold war after that.
    And the science of germ theory led to innoculations and the science of nuclear physics led to power our homes. You really can`t help the sh*t that comes out of your mouth, can you Crackjak?
  87. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 29, 2011 at 11:48 pm
    Skine: In The Name Of Darwin

    Educate yourself.

    Angilion: I know the LHC has many other projects, but it`s main impetus is and remains for now, the Higgs-Boson.

    One positive thing that has come of it is the CLOUD experiment that found a positive link between galactic cosmic rays and cloud formation, which likely has a significant influence on Earth`s climate.

    What that means is that the AGW climate models are wrong and that our own sun has a much more significant role in regulating Earth`s climate than was initially thought.

    Yaezakura: I`ll refer you to the above mentioned experiment and this Link
  88. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 12:57 am
    Davymid: I know you`re mad about that fracking debate we had, but calling me a `dick` just because I disproved your assertion that drilling into the Marcellus shale was "shallow", near the water table, as you claimed, is beyond the pale.

    8,900 ft below the surface, could never be called "shallow" drilling.

    Calling me a `dick` because I happened to prove you wrong, really reflects on your character, more than mine, and classifies you as a douche, in my book.

    I had held you in higher regard than most of the liberal douches here, but not now.

    You might think that an oil field geologist would be thrilled at the prospect of finding more oil, but not you, your liberal ideology gets in the way of that. In short you`re a hypocrite making a living off the `evil` oil industry that your liberal ilk despise.
  89. Profile photo of PierreJeanFR
    PierreJeanFR Male 40-49
    1360 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 4:20 am
    Crakrjakass: breathe on exhaust pipe fumes and leave us alone.
  90. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 9:40 am
    Crakr:

    Name one positive social outcome that comes from Christianity that cannot be ALSO acheived by secular means.
  91. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 9:46 am
    Trolls are easy to spot.
  92. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 10:09 am
    Crakr: "The science of evolution led to a political campaign of eugenics and social darwinism, in the early 1900s, that eventually justified fascist and communist regimes that killed tens of millions of people, began the second world war and the cold war after that."


    You are so full of it. Science did not cause those things to happen. People falsely APPLIED those findings to wrongly JUSTIFY the genocide, ect. and you making this assertion does not change the truth of the findings, you are again intellectually dishonest.

    "Faith doesn`t need proof, that`s why it`s called faith."

    If you truly believe this BS, you have just justified believing anything you want to as long as it is done in "faith" and shows why we have a long way to go to evolve. Believing ANYTHING without good reason is the definition of being willfully ignorant, it allows you and your ilk to claim "truth" where there is none.
  93. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 11:34 am
    "Skine: In The Name Of Darwin

    Educate yourself."

    Read what I posted again.
  94. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 2:50 pm
    I graduated college with a science degree
    You`ve mentioned this before, CJ, but never got back to me when I asked - what was the subject of your degree?

    Because you have in the past demonstrated an appalling knowledge and understanding of relatively simple calculus, far below what would be considered mandatory for any applied or pure science degree in any tertiary education centre of any notable level in any developed country.

    So I can only assume it was a degree subject that requires little to no maths. Which rules out physics, chemistry, biology, every branch of engineering, geology, meteorology, archaeology, mathematics (obviously), statistics, astronomy, oceanography, climatology, vulcanology, pharmacology, zoology... pretty much every degree programme that might qualify you in any of the science debates that surface here.

    So when you mention that you have a science degree, what weight should I give that?
  95. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 4:31 pm
    Otto: Those same scientists that promoted Darwin promoted eugenics, they didn`t even make an attempt to stop it, until it was too late to do so. You say, "People falsely APPLIED those findings", that only became a `consensus` among scientists AFTER the holocaust. Even then, eugenics policies, in many countries, continued into the 1970s.

    Now they`ve switched from trying to improve human evolution, to environmental activism with the same rabid fervor and the same "falsely applying findings", to affect societal change.
  96. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 4:58 pm
    CrakrJak, racism and the ideas of racial purity and superiority long out-date the Theory of Evolution. It may have given some people a flimsy veneer of legitimacy, but it certainly didn`t cause those things to happen, any more than the Theory of Gravity causes bombs to be dropped. And people misusing science does not put the science itself at fault.

    By the way, there were multiple investigations into those emails, by outside authorities. They found absolutely no wrong-doing or fraud. It really was scientists just talking to each other the way scientists do. Their personal emails were never meant to be read by people unfamiliar with the internal lingo.

    Your mindset is a bit like walking in on a group of kids talking about playing some shooting game, not hearing the part about it being a game, and wanting them all arrested for having killed people. It doesn`t matter that no wrong-doing occurred, you just want to punish them based on the snippet you heard.
  97. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 5:38 pm
    Bob: Not that it`s any of your business but I took Trigonometry, Discrete Mathematics, Probability and Statistics, Differential Equations, and Yes, Calculus. Along with other math related courses.

    To be honest though, I`ve never had the need to really use calculus outside of college, that`s been 20+ years. So forgive me if I seem to have lost some of my functions.
  98. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 6:26 pm
    Yaezakura: the Theory of Gravity causes bombs to be dropped.

    I didn`t say the science "caused" the problem, I said it was used to justify it.

    The scientists that did the first investigation into those e-mails were in league with the people that wrote them, which is like asking the police to investigate themselves. Since then, many scientists have jumped off the AGW bandwagon.

    The bigger problem is that the more the AGW scare mongers cry "The sky is falling", in the face of cooling temps, the more science itself looses credibility with the public.
  99. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 7:58 pm
    Crakr: Evolution is the study of NATURAL selection, eugenics is UNNATURAL selection. Yes science has been used in immoral ways, since it is a product of man it is fallible, just like religion. The difference is science has a self-correcting mechanism that religion does not have. The christian Bible still justifies, rape, incest, murder, slavery, ect.... christians just ignore those passages now or rationalize them out of being taught, but that is OK with you because "faith does not require proof". Religion has started more wars and killed more people by far than anything that can be attributed to science.

    How conflict of morals are resolved.

    Secular mode for settling moral disputes...discussion, debate and evidence.

    Religions mode for settling moral disputes...conquest, conflict, coercion and conversion.
  100. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 11:14 pm
    CJ: Calling me a `dick` because I happened to prove you wrong, really reflects on your character
    First off, let’s get this out of the way. I don’t think you’re a dick because you proved me wrong. You didn’t. You googled some random bullcum about waterfall caprocks being ultramafic and then (in your mind) schooled me on my lack of knowledge on my own area of expertise, as you know so much more than I do on the subject. Again, I’ll point out. I have a PhD in Earth Science (Geophysics), specializing in hydrocarbon exploration. I could go on about my peer-reviewed publications, leading training courses for new Graduate recruits, years of working finding oil for one of the largest multinational oil companies in the world etc, but you get the point.
  101. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 11:14 pm
    No, Crackrjak. I called you a dick because you’re a dick. Nothing to do with liberal ideologies, atheism, or anything in between. You’re just a dick.

    On the subject of qualifications and Crackrjak’s scientific credentials (since he posits himself as an all-knowing authority on science, from Climatology to Evolution to Geology) leads me into my next point.
  102. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 11:14 pm
    I graduated college with a science degree
    Dat so? Your Myspace page (Google is a wonderful thing, it’s right there on hit #5, you should think about taking that sh*t down) tells us that you graduated with a Associate Degree a Community College, majoring in Computer Programming with a minor in Business Systems. That’s the equivalent to what we in the UK have, but we call it a Higher National Diploma (HND). According to your Myspace page, it took you 7-8 years to earn that Diploma which is meant to take 2 years. Just pointing that out, it’s important in context.
  103. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 11:15 pm
    Those same scientists that promoted Darwin promoted eugenics... Now they`ve switched from trying to improve human evolution, to environmental activism with the same rabid fervor and the same "falsely applying findings", to affect societal change.

    Finally, look, this is the part where I usually get all huggy and say that you’re a great guy, and that I’m just trying to help etc. But in this case, no. Because you’re a dick. And I don’t hug dicks.

    Did you seriously just go from: Scientists who accept Evolution (hint: every professional scientist in the world who’s not a 15th Century f*cking alchemist) was promoting selected genocide, and then jumped the shark to say “they’ve found a knew agenda now, those pesky scientists (ALWAYS with their agendas!) on how now they’re all about Climate Change”
  104. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 30, 2011 at 11:38 pm
    Back on-topic, America is dumbing-down, which was the point Neil deGrasse Tyson was trying to make in this video. I’m pointing out that people like you are the reason it’s happening, Crakrjak. Dicks like you spout (with authority) that Evolution simply doesn`t happen, Islam is the great evil in the world, Climate Change is just a pinko Commie lie, the Baby Jesus will come to save us all, etcetera et f*cking cetera.

    There are millions of people like you in America, and you will have your comeuppance, but by that time it will be too late. The votes will be cast.

    And it’s a great shame, it really is, because there are so many smart people there, and I`m privileged to count some of them as good friends.
  105. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 31, 2011 at 12:04 am
    davymid: I did prove you wrong and you just couldn`t stand the thought of it. 8900 ft. below ground is NOT shallow drilling and nowhere near the damn water table. Screw your PHD if you can`t understand something that f*cking simple !

    I called you a douche because you’re a douche. You lost an argument, so to save face, in your mind, you revert to personal attack and insults.

    Unlike a lot of people, I didn`t get college grants or loans, I had to work to pay for my college education. Sometimes that meant dropping out and working full-time to save up the necessary funds. The benefit of that hard work was that I graduated with no debts. My education was also accredited for full transfer credit, which I had planned on doing. After my mother was diagnosed with cancer and had to quit her job, I had to provide the income to replace hers.

    So you can go take your criticism of my education and GO BLOW IT OUT YOUR ASS ! Mr. PHD Know-it-all douchebag.
  106. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 31, 2011 at 12:50 am
    davymid: My point was that over-educated idiots, much like yourself, misused science to justify murder, sterilization, and torture.

    Atheist liberals have had the agenda of wresting control out of the hands of the general populace, for over a hundred years, because, as you`ve condescendingly demonstrated in your own words, You believe that only people like you can save the world before it`s too late.

    You are deluded into believing you`re superior, part of a privileged, highly educated, elite class, and that everyone else are just morons, f*cking the world up.

    So, take your elitist atheist crusade to rule the world, in utopian feudal socialism, and keep it in Canada.

    Americans don`t want your socialist tyranny, nor will we forget the history of elitist usurpers, misusing science to support class bigotry and eugenics.
  107. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 31, 2011 at 1:17 am
    Otto: The Christian Bible, The New Testament, DOES NOT justify rape, incest, murder, or slavery, That is a libel atheists have used for over a century now.

    science`s real `self-correcting mechanism` is when old elitist scientists die and the younger ones are allowed to do their research without their elders prejudiced bias. Competing ideas are stiffed right now, shunned, and blackballed. Promising discoveries have been discarded and people`s careers ended in the name of `consensus`.

    If these elite scientists do this to their own colleagues imagine what they`d do if they ever got political control, then again I don`t have to imagine it, history has proven that course of elitist tyranny to be detrimental to all of society.
  108. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    December 31, 2011 at 2:44 am
    Not that it`s any of your business
    If your degree is none of our business, why did you mention it? Don`t wave credentials if you don`t want people to know about them, and don`t expect people to accept it unquestioningly when you make the very vague claim that you have a "science degree", which could mean anything from particle physics to psychology.
    Also, you still haven`t said what you majored in.

    Differential Equations, and Yes, Calculus
    Then you clearly were not paying attention in these two courses, because that was the exact topic of our discussion.
  109. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 31, 2011 at 9:03 am
    Bob: Which discussion was that ?, I seriously can`t recall discussing mathematics with you in the recent past. Like I said, it`s been 20+ years, calculus is just not used in my daily life, sorry.

    If anything statistics has come in more handy than any other math course, makes it easier to decipher some of the BS percentages claimed in infographics and the news these days.

    I mean really, outside of rocket science, radioactive decay, chemical reaction rates, etc.. It`s mainly continuous math involving rates of change that few people use daily. I understand it`s concept and use, I`ve just lost memory of the functions.

    It`s not like most people look at a football kickoff and think of the rate of change in the acceleration of the ball until it reaches equilibrium with gravity, do they ? do you ?
  110. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    December 31, 2011 at 11:10 am
    Crakr: "The Christian Bible, The New Testament, DOES NOT justify rape, incest, murder, or slavery, That is a libel atheists have used for over a century now."

    I was raised christian, went to a christian school for over 10 years so I have read a few Bibles in my time, EVERY Christian Bible had a New and Old Testament, christians used those texts to justify slavery in this country, you are again being dishonest, stating the truth is not libel. Slavery was practiced at the time of Jesus but he never condemned it. If he was so wise, (which he wasn`t) you would think he could have said "don`t own people" once, just once. By not talking about a common the immoral practice he implicitly condoned it.
  111. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 31, 2011 at 3:41 pm
    The Christian Bible, The New Testament, DOES NOT justify rape, incest, murder, or slavery, That is a libel atheists have used for over a century now.

    I`m wondering if I will ever see a limit to the stuff you`re willing to make up on an ad hoc basis to suit whatever you`re saying at that particular time. I haven`t seen one yet, but I am curious as to whether there`s a limit to how far you`ll go.

    The Christian bible includes what Christians call the old testament. If you don`t know that, what do you know? You`re completely ignorant of science and you`re completely ignorant of reality (*) - can you really be that ignorant of your own religion as well?



    * You deny the existence of a natural process that affects everyone every day and which humans have used as a tool for millenium - that`s ignorance of reality.
  112. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 31, 2011 at 3:41 pm

    The new testament of the Christian bible doesn`t condemn homosexual acts. Since you`re currently claiming to ignore the old testament, does that mean you`ve changed your mind about homosexuality?

    The new testament of the Christian bible doesn`t claim the Earth is <10,000 years old. Since you`re currently claiming to ignore the old testament, does that mean you`ve changed your mind about the age of the Earth?

    Etc, etc.

    You don`t ignore the old testament. You just make up whatever fits with whatever you`re saying at any particular time. There`s no consistency in your position - you freely contradict yourself. You appear to be a troll.
  113. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 31, 2011 at 4:00 pm
    science`s real `self-correcting mechanism` is when old elitist scientists die and the younger ones are allowed to do their research without their elders prejudiced bias. Competing ideas are stiffed right now, shunned, and blackballed. Promising discoveries have been discarded and people`s careers ended in the name of `consensus`.

    No system is perfect and there is a degree of resistance to radical new ideas. But your hysterical conspiracy "theory" ravings are just that, nothing more. Ideas with no supporting evidence that you happen to agree with are not examples of real science being suppressed by the conspiracy.

    The Higgs` boson provides a good example. There`s a consensus that the Standard Model, including Higgs` addition to it, is correct. It`s called "standard" for a reason. If it`s proven that the Higgs` boson doesn`t exist, Higgs was wrong. Competing ideas are welcomed.
  114. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    December 31, 2011 at 4:01 pm
    "You don`t ignore the old testament. You just make up whatever fits with whatever you`re saying at any particular time. There`s no consistency in your position - you freely contradict yourself."

    Exactly....this is what all Christians do (and anyone who believes supernatural BS from 2000 year old books) , they just do it all a little differently and claim "truth" without any real justification for the claim. It is the reason I turned in my membership card a long time ago.
  115. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 31, 2011 at 4:49 pm
    Sorry, but I`m not going to write several posts of rebuttals to you guys` BS against Christians. It`s New Years Eve and I`m not going to waste it, you guys still wouldn`t believe it anyways.
  116. Profile photo of McDuff73
    McDuff73 Male 30-39
    870 posts
    December 31, 2011 at 8:55 pm
    so europe with all that socialism is leading the world in research!!
    lol in your face commy hating yanks
  117. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    December 31, 2011 at 9:52 pm
    Sorry, but I`m not going to write several posts of rebuttals to you guys` BS against Christians. It`s New Years Eve and I`m not going to waste it, you guys still wouldn`t believe it anyways.
    In other words, you have no defense to mount because there isn`t one to be mounted. The Bible outlines rules for slavery. The Bible encourages men to wait in the bushes along roads and pounce on women to "take them as their wives", which is a polite way of saying "rape them into submission". God tells his chosen people to slaughter everyone in every village they come across that refuses to instantly convert--except, of course, the virgin girls. What do you suppose happens to those girls next? Why, it`s that "take them as your wives" thing again. And something tells me no girl would willingly marry someone who just helped slaughter every person she`s ever known or loved.
  118. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    December 31, 2011 at 9:55 pm
    CrakrJak, you represent everything wrong with religion. You use it to justify your bigoted views while not even acknowledging the parts of it you don`t approve of.

    You make excuses. You lie. You evade questions. You do everything possible to avoid facing the truth of your own beliefs.

    And the sad thing is, I can`t even be mad at you for it, because it`s not your fault. You`re doing exactly what you were raised and indoctrinated to do. You follow blindly, and you defend the indefensible because without it you are nothing.
  119. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 31, 2011 at 11:18 pm
    Yaezakura: Since you are new here, I`ll let you in on my reputation here, and I`m sure Davymid will agree.

    I do NOT back down from a debate, can and have, on dozens of occasions, posted 5-6 1000 letter rebuttals with links, videos, graphs, and whatever else I deem necessary to support my assertions.

    In short, I don`t back away from a debate. Why do you think I have over 10,000 posts here on IAB ? Clue: It`s not because I`m shy.

    So now for the rebuttals to you BS, War is not pretty and the people the Jews fought were hedonistic idol worshipers, that sacrificed virgins and babies to their idol gods.

    Trying to compare the bronze age to modern times is utterly asinine. People then lived a brutal subsistence lifestyle, there were no police to call if you were in danger, war was up close and personal with swords and spears, you couldn`t be assured you`d be alive the next day.
  120. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 31, 2011 at 11:38 pm
    What hurts our sensibilities now, was very commonplace back then and if you think the Jews were brutal to their enemies, their enemies were much much more brutal, at least the Jews gave warning to their enemies, gave their people a chance to convert and live, their enemies gave no such quarter.

    The bible makes a differentiation between slaves and servants. Slaves are unwilling unpaid forced laborers, such as the Jews themselves were subjected to in Egypt in Moses` time. Servants were paid, treated a lot like family, they were clothed, housed, fed, and trained, a lot like apprentices were in medieval times.

    If you were young and poor and had no trade skills, you would sell yourself into servitude to help your family, then earn the money needed to pay back the debt all while learning a trade so that you could earn a living after the debt was paid back or time served.
  121. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    January 1, 2012 at 12:18 am
    Yaezakura: Since you are new here, I`ll let you in on my reputation here, and I`m sure Davymid will agree...I do NOT back down from a debate
    CJ, to be fair, Yaezakura`s been here since 1997 according to his profile, that hardly qualifies him as "new here".

    And Yaezakura, I do actually have to back CJ up on that particular fact. He`s not a cowardly troll who drops bombs and then pisses off elsewhere, he does respond even to old posts. We can argue until the cows come home about how f*cked up our differing world-views are (and we do), but CJ`s no fly-by-night troll. He sincerely believes the stuff he says and will defend it to his dying breath.

    He`s many things to many people, but he`s not a coward.

    Anyways, f*ck all that noise. HAPPY 2012 BITCHES!
  122. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    January 1, 2012 at 12:32 am
    Many young people today do pretty much same thing when they join the military, they serve for a period of 3 years or more, learn a trade, and gain employment more easily after they leave.

    As far as your crap about, "encourag(ing) men to wait in the bushes...and pounce on women to "take them as their wives". Judges 21:15-25 does not say that God told them to do that, does not mention rape at all, and it was NOT the Israelites that did it was the Benjamites that did that.

    Next, your claim of "God tells his chosen people to slaughter everyone in every village they come across that refuses to instantly convert" is another lie. In the book of Numbers the Midianites drew the Israelites into sinning and worshiping false gods, as a result the Israelites suffered a plague that killed 24,000 of their people (perhaps it was some sort of VD, just a guess), the Israelites cried to God for help and he told them to smite the Midianites...
  123. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    January 1, 2012 at 12:46 am
    The Israelites got their people together, purified themselves of the plague and raised an army to slaw the kings of Midian. The Israelites took home the usual spoils of war, which included the very women that gave them the plague in the first place, So Moses commanded that the Midianite women be slain that were not virgins so that the plague would not return. Moses also made the soldiers that returned purify themselves and all their spoils for 7 days before they could return to the Israelite camp.

    This was just a bronze age way to control the outbreak of a deadly form of plague/VD.
  124. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    January 1, 2012 at 12:48 am
    Happy New Years to you too Davymid.
  125. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    January 1, 2012 at 1:39 am
    CJ`s no fly-by-night troll. He sincerely believes the stuff he says and will defend it to his dying breath.

    That`s true. Even when it contradicts something he wrote before. And then he`ll defend that too, repeatedly contradicting himself in an eternal present without past. He acts like a troll, but he might just be another theist with an irrational position that doesn`t match either reality or itself.
  126. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    January 1, 2012 at 1:54 am
    What hurts our sensibilities now, was very commonplace back then and if you think the Jews were brutal to their enemies, their enemies were much much more brutal, at least the Jews gave warning to their enemies, gave their people a chance to convert and live, their enemies gave no such quarter.

    It was quite common to give enemies a chance to surrender utterly and without conditions, to become part of your empire. Many conquerors did that, not just Jews, because it`s often more efficient than war.

    Jewish accounts make Jews out to be less brutal than their enemies. Just like almost every other group`s accounts make them out to be less brutal than their enemies.

    Alexander of Macedon is a good example.

    Alexander the Great, bringer of civilisation.
    Alexander the Accursed, tyrant and destroyer.

    Depends who you ask. Both have truth in them.
  127. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    January 1, 2012 at 2:00 am
    The bible makes a differentiation between slaves and servants. Slaves are unwilling unpaid forced laborers, such as the Jews themselves were subjected to in Egypt in Moses` time. Servants were paid, treated a lot like family, they were clothed, housed, fed, and trained, a lot like apprentices were in medieval times.

    There can a difference between slaves and servants, but slaves are also servants. All slaves are servants, but not all servants are slaves.

    A reference to servants does not mean that they were employees who served for pay, freely. Slaves were frequently referred to as servants (because they were).

    Also, slaves could be "treated a lot like family, they were clothed, housed, fed, and trained" and they could even be paid. Which doesn`t mean they weren`t slaves.

    The Christian bible refers to *slaves*. You`re doing what you object to - applying modern morality to ancient times.
  128. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    January 1, 2012 at 6:39 am
    Angilion: No, The Jews had servants, not slaves.

    The Bible references the two with different words and the Jews themselves did not keep people in `slavery`.

    And as I said earlier, even today young people can choose to `serve` in the military, the Peace Corp, Americorp, etc and get clothed, housed, fed, and trained much like Jewish servants were back then.
  129. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    January 1, 2012 at 10:17 am
    It depends on which translation you use.

    For example, if we look at Exodus 21:20,

    New American Standard, The Message, English Standard, New Living Translation, Holman Christian Standard, Darby Translation and Douay-Rheims 1899 American versions use either slave or bondman.

    Amplified, King James/21st Century King James, American Standard and Young`s Literal Translation use servant.

    Wycliffe New Testament uses servant, but includes slave in parentheses.
  130. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    January 1, 2012 at 10:21 am
    Of course, that`s ignoring that Exodus 21:21, in most of the versions using "servant" state that " is his money."

    Which doesn`t make much sense in any context other than slavery.
  131. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    January 1, 2012 at 10:29 am
    (sorry for the triple post)

    Also, I the argument could easily be made that, just because God gave rules regarding the treatment of slaves, it doesn`t necessarily hold that the Jews owned slaves.

    However, why would God give the commandment in that case?
  132. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    January 1, 2012 at 10:38 am
    Crakr "the Jews themselves did not keep people in `slavery`."

    Here is Jewish Rabbi who would disagree....the only people who I have ever seen take your side are Christian Apologists like you. (next post)

  133. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    January 1, 2012 at 10:54 am
    Rabbi M.J. Raphall (circa 1861) justified human slavery on the basis of the 10th commandment. It places slaves
    "... under the same protection as any other species of lawful property...That the Ten Commandments are the word of G-d, and as such, of the very highest authority, is acknowledged by Christians as well as by Jews...How dare you, in the face of the sanction and protection afforded to slave property in the Ten Commandments--how dare you denounce slaveholding as a sin? When you remember that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Job--the men with whom the Almighty conversed, with whose names he emphatically connects his own most holy name, and to whom He vouchsafed to give the character of `perfect, upright, fearing G-d and eschewing evil` (Job 1:8)--that all these men were slaveholders, does it not strike you that you are guilty of something very little short of blasphemy?"
  134. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    January 2, 2012 at 4:05 am
    Otto: Very carefully examine the date ..1861.. The year the Civil War started. I could likely find another Rabbi with the opposite opinion that same year.

    But today, I doubt you could find even one Rabbi that would hold to Rabbi M.J. Raphall`s opinion.

    Skine: I see you avoided the previous verse or verses 26 and 27 that makes it clear that servants aren`t slaves.

    Exodus 21:
    20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
    26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye`s sake.
    27 And if he smite out his manservant`s tooth, or his maidservant`s tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth`s sake.

    Slaves on southern plantations, were never freed because of injuries, nor were masters punished for their deaths.
  135. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    January 2, 2012 at 9:05 am
    Crakr:

    I was using this to refute your statement "the Jews themselves did not keep people in `slavery`", not that Jews nowdays still think slavery is acceptable. Saying the `slaves` were really `servants` is wrong. My point on this was very apparent in that I used your quote to start with about jews not owning slaves, so trying to muddy the water by attempting to switch the talking point is deceptive, but seems to be a common theme with you.
  136. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    January 2, 2012 at 10:51 am
    Otto: You were the one that made the switch there buckaroo, by quoting an obscure Rabbi from 1861.

    Servant does not equal Slave, no matter how many times you say it, I`ve proved they weren`t by the different ways each are treated.
  137. Profile photo of Otto67
    Otto67 Male 40-49
    438 posts
    January 2, 2012 at 11:08 am
    Crakr: "Servant does not equal Slave, no matter how many times you say it, I`ve proved they weren`t by the different ways each are treated."

    If I accept your point that slaves were treated differently than servants does not prove there were not slaves and in fact proves that slaves existed. You have never proven your statement that
    "the Jews themselves did not keep people in `slavery`, you have only made the ASSERTION.
  138. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    January 2, 2012 at 8:07 pm
    "I see you avoided the previous verse or verses 26 and 27 that makes it clear that servants aren`t slaves.

    Exodus 21:
    20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
    26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye`s sake.
    27 And if he smite out his manservant`s tooth, or his maidservant`s tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth`s sake.

    Slaves on southern plantations, were never freed because of injuries, nor were masters punished for their deaths."

    Those verses don`t imply that they weren`t slaves.

    In fact, they strongly imply (if not outright state) that they were slaves. If they are not slaves, why would they need to be freed by their masters?

    Just because beating slaves was relatively common in the US, it doesn`t mean that all slaves are beaten regularly, or that that
  139. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    January 2, 2012 at 8:11 pm
    "Servant does not equal Slave, no matter how many times you say it"

    You`re right that servant != slave.

    *or that that was common practice among all slave holding civilizations.

    However, that`s not what we`re debating.

    The thing is, now that it is a commonly held belief that slavery is wrong, people have begun rewriting the Bible to make it look like God wasn`t endorsing slavery.
  140. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    January 2, 2012 at 10:45 pm
    Oh, and to go back a few pages:

    LHC confirms discovery of new particle.
  141. Profile photo of mcboozerilla
    mcboozerilla Male 30-39
    646 posts
    January 2, 2012 at 11:12 pm
    Where in Western Europe do you find creationism being taught in science classes or global warming deniers? Enough said.
  142. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    January 3, 2012 at 12:50 pm
    I`m irritated I missed this thread. From religious tangents to people claiming science would be better off if private companies funded things (LOL), I`ve definitely missed out here.
  143. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    January 4, 2012 at 3:48 pm
    This thread reminds me of a bumper sticker I once saw which read, "There was a time when religion ruled the world; it is called the Dark Ages."

    While religion doesn`t always hold back science, historically it`s certainly the #1 reason for science being held back, with a lack of funding being a distant #2. Galileo was censored and imprisoned for stating the truth that Earth is not the center of the universe.

    Heck, the Catholic church didn`t even want the Bible available in English, for crying out loud! These are not the defenders of truth, but the defenders of the status quo. The advancement of science is often seen by them as an attack on religion, and something to be fought against (look up the "Wedge Document").

    That aside, funding is currently a huge problem, mainly due to downplaying the importance of science education. So even indirectly, the attacks on science make education more difficult in other ways.
  144. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    January 4, 2012 at 4:09 pm
    Regarding the off-topic discussion of "slaves vs. servants", it should be noted that in the Old Testament, male Jews could only be in an indentured servitude for six years (unless he wants to remain a slave for life) and many references were made specifically regarding *Hebrew* servants (see Exodus 21:1-11). However, that same courtesy was *not* given to non-Hebrew and/or female slaves.

    The "heathens" however, can be bought and sold, and are yours forever. See Leviticus 25:39-55 (specifically 44-46).

    Note that this isn`t limited to the Old Testament either. The New Testament says, "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh." - 1 Peter 2:18 (One of several NT examples.)

    If that`s not slavery, I don`t know what is.

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