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Date: 11/20/11 03:30 PM

89 Responses to Is The Religious Mind Morally Compromised?

  1. Profile photo of kitteh9lives
    kitteh9lives Female 70 & Over
    8033 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 3:10 pm
    Link: Is The Religious Mind Morally Compromised? - Using a simple experiment, Dan Barker tests if the religious mindset is morally compromised.
  2. Profile photo of Rick_S
    Rick_S Male 40-49
    3275 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 3:41 pm
    Anyone got a fireproof suit I can borrow. The flame wars are gonna start again.
  3. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 3:48 pm
    Quality, level-headed, logical discussion. Of course, faith had nothing to do with quality, level-headed, logic, so, you know... Plus, all anyone has to say is, "The new testament changed everything!" They just refuse to give up the Old Testament when it comes to justifying bigotry they want to keep. But, again, like I said, there`s no arguing faith.
  4. Profile photo of snakecharmer
    snakecharmer Male 18-29
    321 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 3:49 pm
    BAD RELIGION! BAD! Religion is bad, mm-kay.

    Just because some people who religious so happen to be idiots does not mean that religion wholly bad. There are also some morally bankrupt aithiests out there too, but I believe the main flaw in this guy`s argument is the comparison of God to man. It is the question "Why would God do this or that" that discredits his whole argument.
  5. Profile photo of Golden1
    Golden1 Female 18-29
    123 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 3:50 pm
    Title needs more of the word "is".
  6. Profile photo of zeebeedee
    zeebeedee Male 50-59
    614 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 4:21 pm
    God is perfect, that`s why he NEEDS to be worshiped.
  7. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 4:32 pm
    False analogy of differing perspective.

    Father takes child home, against his will. Fine.
    Stranger takes child home, against his will. Kidnapping.

    Difference: Guardianship.

    A surgeon may replace a heart.
    An unqualified 12 year old may not.

    Difference: Knowledge.

    "It`s the exact same! They`re moral monsters!"

    God is allowed to transport souls, from one place to another, with the benefit of omniscience and guardianship.
    If Man, any man, including Danesh, had those properties of God, he too would be exempt.

    If there`s a God, his properties demonstrate him to be not guilty.

    If there is not a God, the properties are equally absent, and thus he is.

    This will never be a valid argument. It will only ever be an argument, preached loudly, to the choir.
  8. Profile photo of LuckyDave
    LuckyDave Male 18-29
    675 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 4:58 pm
    This man used the Bible for one of two reasons:

    1) He is stupid and has never read the Qur`an which is filled with this kind of meaningless violence, simply because your fellow man doesn`t worship the same God you do.

    2) He is a coward and uses the Bible as an example because the Christians won`t send him death threats, the Muslims will.

    The Bible was written by man, not God. People blame stuff on God all the time, that doesn`t mean that he did it.

    How about some religious equality here? Why not have a zinger for atheists? Perhaps a joke about a Jew here or there? What about a picture of Muhammad F*cking a goat with his face showing? A Buddhist looking at a worm and using a Star Wars joke about his father? Point out holes in the logic of each religious belief/disbelief for a change. Or are those who choose content for I-A-B so anti-Christian that they have to post everything that takes a shot at said belief?
  9. Profile photo of meneado
    meneado Male 18-29
    152 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 5:05 pm
    my dad beat me after showing him this.
    i was shocked, he was mad, he called it liberal nonsense, threw my computer on the ground and i need to move out after thanksgiving. but this guy is so right. damn it.
  10. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36186 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 5:06 pm

    Silly comparison. The rules of man are not the rules of gods.
    But it`s all just superstition anyway so I guess it doesn`t matter.
  11. Profile photo of Baphxiii
    Baphxiii Male 40-49
    91 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 5:21 pm
    Great vid. When are you religious nutters going to wake up and understand your "beliefs" are nothing more than superstition and mythology. No god has ever been real, nor will any god be real.
  12. Profile photo of DSDavis008
    DSDavis008 Male 13-17
    68 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 5:23 pm
    I think the idea is that there are no reasons to justify things like torture and senseless murder, and if a being does them he is not moral. The rules may be different for god, but morality isn`t unless you want to open the door to moral relativism.
  13. Profile photo of PacoP42
    PacoP42 Male 13-17
    1064 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 5:46 pm
    LuckyDave, sorry to tell you but christianity is the most practiced religion in the world. And calling this guy a coward because he chose to go against this group, but not buddhists? It`s not about that you dumb twit
  14. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 5:49 pm
    Baalthazaq, are you saying that a guardian can torture, maim and kill based on his guardianship, and that all`s okay? That morality is irrelevant to guardians, based solely on guardianship? So, I may beat my child all I want, based on my position as guardian? If morality is to provide us all guidance, it must, by definition, govern the actions of our gods as well. If it doesn`t, if they`re exempt, the code of morality has no value. Man will not follow "do as I say, not as I do". Never.

    As for knowledge, that characteristic didn`t enter into the analogy in the video.
  15. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 5:56 pm
    Religion is amoral. Genuinely, completely amoral.

    That doesn`t mean that all theists are amoral. Some are, some aren`t. The point is that religion itself is amoral.

    I think this quote sums it up neatly:

    I believe in morality, which is doing what is right regardless of what I am told...not in religion, which is doing what I am told regardless of what is right.
  16. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 5:59 pm
    He`s leaving out the part where God blesses Job for his faithfulness, God returned to Job twice what he lost, made his doubting friends ask forgiveness from Job, and gave Job 7 sons and 3 daughters and a long prosperous life.

    The Lesson of Job is patience and faithfulness no matter what calamities befall you in life.
  17. Profile photo of bliznik
    bliznik Male 30-39
    786 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 6:02 pm
    Erm, this would be a very powerful argument if he was actually telling the truth. He twisted the story of Job. In the story of Job, SATAN was the one that hurt Job, not God. God ALLOWED Satan to do those things to Job (as God still allows Satan to do things to humans), but God didn`t actually perform any of those acts.

    The point of the story of Job is that even if Satan hurts you, tortures you, kills your family, etc., if you continue to live a good morally upright and spiritual life and don`t BLAME others for all of the evil that happens in your life, you will be rewarded in the end.

    Yet another weak straw-man argument COMPLETELY FABRICATED FROM THIN AIR by an atheist.
  18. Profile photo of BrimstoneOne
    BrimstoneOne Male 30-39
    2229 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 6:04 pm
    Who created God(s)? If Man created God(s), then who created us? If we came the genus of Sapien (The same one that includes chimps, gorillas and other Apes) We, who call ourselves Homo Sapien, How can we as a species be so ego, that EVERYTHING is about or for us?

    Knowledge IS liberty and freedom, when those whom are hobbled to/in ignorance suppress knowledge. Create fear, control and obedience to "tradition". Thus the enslavement of the mind and soul happens.

    I speak out not against any particular set of beliefs. I speak out against ANYONE who seeks to control and enslave. Those who control your access to information, dream themselves your master.
  19. Profile photo of deathcab4aj
    deathcab4aj Female 30-39
    167 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 6:15 pm
    Nice try. Taken out of context. This guys fails to realize or mention that God wasn`t doing those things to Job simply because the Devil told him to do it, but to prove a point for the larger good of humanity. Anyone who has ever fought in a war would know that sometimes innocent people get hurt for a cause greater than themselves.
  20. Profile photo of LuckyDave
    LuckyDave Male 18-29
    675 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 6:30 pm
    Paco if you can`t read I don`t think its a good idea to point fingers. I recall posting one of two reasons that he would be using the Bible for such an example when there are worse examples out there. Either he`s fearful of repercussions, or he`s stupid for not doing more research. If either theory is incorrect, he`s neither stupid or a coward, but if they are I would only be pointing out the obvious. On the other hand, I called the I-A-B staff, not the guy in the video, for being biased, and the suggestion of Buddhism was an example of what they could use. Now, seeing as you called me out for something I didn`t say, I do believe you fall under the category of stupid; especially since the material you reference is on the same page as your reply.
  21. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10443 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 6:49 pm
    It is not a perfect analogy, admittedly, but his point is still made.

    Although IMO there are many other, better reasons for not believing in god.
  22. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10443 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 6:56 pm
    1) He is stupid and has never read the Qur`an which is filled with this kind of meaningless violence, simply because your fellow man doesn`t worship the same God you do.

    2) He is a coward and uses the Bible as an example because the Christians won`t send him death threats, the Muslims will.
    or... OR...
    3) Chrisitans hold more influence than muslims in the world, and therefore the most good can be made of deconverting them
    4) There are mostly christians in that room
    5) The bible is an easy thing to pick apart

    How about that huh? There seems to be plenty of reasons now.

    How about some religious equality here? ...
    I-A-B so anti-Christian that they have to post everything that takes a shot at said belief?
    I would like that... although good luck trying to go after atheism.
  23. Profile photo of mostly_mike
    mostly_mike Male 18-29
    1 post
    November 20, 2011 at 7:51 pm
    I joined I-A-B simply to give my take on Christianity vs. Atheism. As a Christian, if I am right, when all is said and done then I will go to Heaven. If I am wrong, then oh well. For an Atheist, in the end times, if they are right, then oh well. If they are wrong, then they will go to Hell. Just my simple thoughts, comments on this statement are welcome.
  24. Profile photo of patridiot
    patridiot Male 30-39
    118 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 8:31 pm
    I can`t help but to believe that the christians will be too morally compromised to understand what this man is saying.
  25. Profile photo of Boredhero78
    Boredhero78 Male 18-29
    108 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 8:32 pm
    So if atheists get their way and religious people renounce their faith, do we all really think the world will be a better place? Sure,you may get the pleasure of no longer being annoyed by religion but is that really worth the reality of BILLIONS of people losing the foundation of their moral standards? It`s true, the religious mind becomes clouded to issues like gay marriage and abortion through faith, but it`s that same faith that causes the mind to reconsider murder when pushed to the limit. Be honest,how many people do you think wouldn`t care about killing someone who really pissed them off if there isn`t any punishment past what a man can deliver? I`d be willing to bet that most of the time when someone decides not to pull the trigger, especially a religious person, it`s because the idea of hell creeps into their mind. That may sound silly to some of ya`ll but that`s the fact of the matter. Religion keeps people in line. Silly or not, it has to stick around.
  26. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 8:33 pm
    @mostly_mike - I thought the same thing, when I was a 13 year old Christian kid. I know there`s an actual term for that "argument" but it`s late and I can`t think of it right now. That "argument" fails on many counts though. First of all, if you`re wrong and let`s say... Muslim`s are right... well you were worshiping a false god and will be punished. Why don`t you become a Muslim, then? Better to be safe, right? Same can be said for any other religion that has a punishment for not believing. Plus, people actually have to believe something to be part of a religion. If someone believes the Bible is a bunch of fairy tales, would your god seriously be fooled by that person claiming that they`re a Christian when they believe it`s false, just in case they`re wrong? :P
  27. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 8:39 pm
    @mostly_mike
    There`s just one problem... There are, literally, thousands
    of christian groups who call the other groups as "False"

    What makes you think you are right and others are not? And that`s
    just christianity, there are waaaay more religions who could be
    right.

    The important word here is "could"... While you, or others,
    could be right, we Atheist/Deists think a) There`s no good reason
    to believe in a religion/god, b) Life is too short to waste it
    trying to meet some mystical creature`s possible demands (If it
    actually exist, though), c) Only humans can and/or should make
    their rules by which we must go on in life... Among other reasons
  28. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 8:42 pm
    @Boredhero78
    Sadly, some stupid and moronic people do really need an
    invisible dad to be afraid of. But most sane people, in
    case of losing their fate, would only gain a sense of
    freedom and human-solidarity and compromise to others.

    Atheism is not a lack of morality, it`s actually getting a
    logical mindset that allows people to live in society, respecting
    and caring for the individuals and the whole system
  29. Profile photo of LuckyDave
    LuckyDave Male 18-29
    675 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 8:49 pm
    LazyMe if it wasn`t for the fact that he said "Especially this book, the Bible" I don`t think I would have made such a comparison, though you are correct on adding hypotheses.

    As far as your second statement, I know, but I can dream can`t I?
  30. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31766 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 8:54 pm
    @iceblack: don`t lump us Deists in with them thar Atheists! Darn it! ;-)

    Look at this!

    Can`t we all just get along? No? Oh heck...
  31. Profile photo of xiquiripat
    xiquiripat Male 18-29
    2423 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 8:55 pm
    That`s why Marcion said the creator God of the Hebrew Bible was actually an evil, stupid, and petty being compared to the unknown God of the spirit realm who sent Christ to redeem man from GOD. Needless to say the Church suppressed that heresy with a vengeance and Christians have lived with an unhappy contradiction between the God of love and mercy and the hateful, jealous God of the Bible ever since.
  32. Profile photo of logie2007
    logie2007 Male 13-17
    34 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 8:57 pm
    US

    1 Posts Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:51:23 PM
    I joined I-A-B simply to give my take on Christianity vs. Atheism. As a Christian, if I am right, when all is said and done then I will go to Heaven. If I am wrong, then oh well. For an Atheist, in the end times, if they are right, then oh well. If they are wrong, then they will go to Hell. Just my simple thoughts, comments on this statement are welcome. - Do you think your God would you be okay with you using him as a safety net?
  33. Profile photo of wake_n_bake
    wake_n_bake Male 18-29
    663 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 8:59 pm
    "how many people do you think wouldn`t care about killing someone who really pissed them off if there isn`t any punishment past what a man can deliver? I`d be willing to bet that most of the time when someone decides not to pull the trigger, especially a religious person, it`s because the idea of hell creeps into their mind."

    People seem to have a hard time understanding this, but most people won`t kill someone else not because of hell, but because most sane people have a natural gut feeling that killing is wrong, and wouldn`t be able to live with the knowledge that they caused so much pain for someone else and their loved ones.
  34. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 8:59 pm
    @5Cats
    I categorize Deists and Atheist in the same group because
    we don`t live by some deity`s morality, Deist are something
    like "practical atheists", they will act and live as if there
    was no god to do something for them... Just that

    Oh, hey... I posted that lol
  35. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10443 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 9:00 pm
    1) He is stupid and has never read the Qur`an which is filled with this kind of meaningless violence, simply because your fellow man doesn`t worship the same God you do.

    2) He is a coward and uses the Bible as an example because the Christians won`t send him death threats, the Muslims will.
    or... OR...
    3) Chrisitans hold more influence than muslims in the world, and therefore the most good can be made of deconverting them
    4) There are mostly christians in that room
    5) The bible is an easy thing to pick apart

    How about that huh? There seems to be plenty of reasons now.

    How about some religious equality here? ...
    I-A-B so anti-Christian that they have to post everything that takes a shot at said belief?
    I would like that... although good luck trying to go after atheism.
  36. Profile photo of MightyPeanut
    MightyPeanut Male 30-39
    411 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 9:07 pm
    that`s why they`re called a "flock"...they`re all sheep.
  37. Profile photo of thelonious
    thelonious Male 40-49
    3278 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 9:08 pm
    Well that was constructive. Guess what? God supposedly flooded the entire planet. If you want to be dumb enough to use the recorded actions of God against God go all out. You`ll be convincing no one and playing philosophical masturbation for your own fun.
  38. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 9:27 pm
    Sophistry. He makes the mistake of judging God by the same moral standards that we judge fellow men. Theology 101: Man does not judge (or test) God because the moral realm God lives in is, ultimately, beyond our understanding (i.e., "The Lord works in mysterious ways").
  39. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3876 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 9:27 pm
    I wasn`t going to comment here but I am really baffled by people like Boredhero78 who think morals only come from religion. I was raised by fiscal conservatives. What I wasn`t raised with is religion. I`ve sat through only about five church services in my life. Where I got my morals is the same place most everyone does - from my parents. Saying you have to be religious to have morals is just a manipulation technique to get people to join the church. Same as the whole ridiculous notion of hell.
  40. Profile photo of activitie
    activitie Male 18-29
    18 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 9:53 pm
    Morality is created by people, the culture then dictates what is moral to the majority. That is why what is considered immoral in some cultures (i.e. polygamy) is considered moral in others.
  41. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 10:16 pm
    How about some religious equality here? Why not have a zinger for atheists? Perhaps a joke about a Jew here or there? What about a picture of Muhammad F*cking a goat with his face showing? A Buddhist looking at a worm and using a Star Wars joke about his father? Point out holes in the logic of each religious belief/disbelief for a change. Or are those who choose content for I-A-B so anti-Christian that they have to post everything that takes a shot at said belief?... I called the I-A-B staff, not the guy in the video, for being biased
    Look, I-A-B is mostly user submissions, from the content that is out there on the intertubes. The vast majority of IABers are in the "western" world, so the religion that affects us most is Christianity. From gay-bashing, to abortion, to capital punishment, etc, it stems from Biblical teachings. There`s more of that kinda content because it`s relevent and interesting to our userbase.
  42. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 10:24 pm
    By all means, trawl the internet. If you can find a "zinger for atheists", or an amusing video about Buddhism, or for that matter a "a picture of Muhammad F*cking a goat", then go ahead and submit it. If it`s interesting`, relevant and relieving of boredom, it`ll be posted. Truth is, there just isn`t that kind of content out there. We`d love to find it if it was.

    Also, LuckyDave, I note that you`ve submitted exactly one item to IAB in your 3 years as a member. Go out there dude, find the awesome boredom-relieving stuff and submit it.

    p.s. among the 12 or so people that run IAB on a daily basis, we have a strongly theistic Muslim, a hardcore Young-Earth Creationist Christian minister, a PhD atheist anti-theistic scientist (yes, that`s me, and no, I didn`t approve this post) and everything else in between.

    I`d call that fairly balanced.
  43. Profile photo of Stand4Christ
    Stand4Christ Male 18-29
    35 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 10:34 pm
    I was going to say something, but I think its already been said. The only thing I would add is that the only reason his argument MIGHT work (an it really doesn`t) is that the "indictment" is taken out of context, and he twists the words to his own usefulness. Come to think of it, with all the mistakes in his argument, how in the heck did he get behind a podium?
  44. Profile photo of Anthony91
    Anthony91 Male 18-29
    1 post
    November 20, 2011 at 10:44 pm
    My question to every one is this, because when I read Job it very much frightened me. Because This man brings up a great point, if the Bible depicts God as loving why would He let this happen, why would He let satan be able to effect Jobs life. Now for my question, did God let satan hurt Job because he is evil or did God let this happen simply because He doesn`t ow us any protection because we are the ones who broke his law on His earth? I hope this comes out right, but from my understanding God still isn`t the one who hurt job, it was still satan. Because if you read a lil earlier satan says "God you`ve put a protection around Job thats why he loves you, if you take that away and let dissaster come upon him he will hate you and turn away!" And God said " He will still love me even if he loses everything." so yes every thing was taken but his life, and still Job loved God. And Job got everything back plus more. Tell me if that made sense lol
  45. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 10:57 pm
    God is held to a much lower standard of morality than even the worst criminals on earth.
  46. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 10:57 pm
    @Anthony91 and everybody
    Here`s every argument you`ll find on the internet:

    -Atheist: God is immoral, read the bible
    -Theist: God`s morality is beyond comprehension, we can`t judge it
    -A: But this verse contradicts this other
    -T: God works in mysterious ways and/or "x" verse is meant to be interpreted, not literally
    -A: ok, But god did these horrible things
    -T: That`s the old testament, god did those things to educate people and then made the new testament (You can also add a little "meant to be interpreted" here too)
    -A: But the 10 commandments are in the old testament, you can`t pick what you want and what you don`t
    -T: ... ... ... Oh god, why are you attacking me!? Respect my right to be a close minded prick! (But DO NOT abort, be gay or do anything I think is immoral or I`ll stop talking to you and possibly take a bunch of my friends to yell at your funeral)
    -A: (Insert Face palm)
  47. Profile photo of uptheante
    uptheante Male 30-39
    11 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 3:27 am
    This is really directed at an atheist’s perspective on life, as I`m curious of their logic around their consciousness ceasing to exist when they die. As we are conscious beings with awareness, surely it is illogical having the belief that the conscious part of you will cease to exist after death. Why do we have the drive to experience things, have children and live life to the fullest? When at death`s door you will never have any conscious awareness of these past actions. Sure, passing your genes onto your children leaves a physical part of you behind, but in the end, if your conscious part is not included, then it`s an illogical and unbeneficial action for your life to do.
  48. Profile photo of Oster
    Oster Male 40-49
    104 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 5:08 am
    @uptheante

    Consciousness only works because we have a working brain. Brain stops working, no consciousness. What`s illogical about that?

    The second part is the existential dilemma: "What`s the point of living if you`re just going to die and all you`ve done will be forgotten?" Well, what`s the point of dying if you haven`t really lived?

    It is what it is, and whether you don`t like or can`t conceive of not being conscious doesn`t matter in the least, except that not wanting to die tends to prolong our lives long enough to produce offspring.
  49. Profile photo of Crabes
    Crabes Male 30-39
    1285 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 5:27 am
    maybe someday religious people will really open their eyes...

    as an agnostic, i dont really know what happens when you die but one thing is for sure, YOU are NOT important. We are part of a whole, we die because life need material to make better humans (or better creature). Just have fun, live you life to the fullest and forget about this religious non-sense
  50. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5385 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 5:38 am
    I think he should probably read the whole book of Job. Job remained faithful, and got everything and more back in the end.

  51. Profile photo of Kaylen226
    Kaylen226 Female 18-29
    114 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 5:38 am
    He does have a good point. This is not an attack against religion or those who believe in religion. This is about opening their eyes to understand the contradiction that religion clouds their judgement. If you are too blind to see past that and are dumb enough to feel attacked, then you are just helping prove his point. He is trying to have a discussion and explain himself whereas people who are offended by his interpretation of the Bible will not be able to see past their judgement of him instead of understanding like their religion teaches. This is about philosophical understandings of how religion works. You do not have to be against religion or against God. He is simply questioning the God of the Bible. He may very well believe God exists, but that the one depicted in the Bible is not to be trusted without first questioning relevancy. Blind religion is not the same as educated religion.
  52. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5385 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 5:45 am
    The thing is, I come to this site very often. There are quite a few anti-theists here, and that doesn`t bother me, anymore. My faith is unshakeable; and for reasons someone who is blind to faith will never see.

    I could say that religion lead me to help people, but an anti-theist would not see that.

    I could say that I witnessed miracles, but an anti-theist would call me delusional.

    I could say that I wasn`t raised Christian, but an anti-theist would call me a liar.

    I could say a lot of things, but it is pointless. I am going to convince you about as much as you are going to convince me. I just wish that whoever has this raging hatred for everything holy would realize that it hurts people. I don`t care about "balance" or "fairness". Because, the truth is, there is never a justifiable cause for hurting someone. I really don`t care what moral background you have it is quite simple:

    Making fun of someone makes you a bully,
  53. Profile photo of Wundt
    Wundt Male 40-49
    410 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 5:45 am
    Nicely done Iceblack... except you forgot Pascal`s Wager, that is easily the most common (and most impotent) response theists give.
  54. Profile photo of Calderis
    Calderis Male 18-29
    326 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 5:54 am
    uptheante: You`re assuming that the intellectual awareness of which you speak is something beyond an evolved level of intelligence, a.k.a. a soul. If you look at the emotional and intellectual level of gorilla`s and chimp`s who have been taught ASL, it`s amazing how our perceived uniqueness is simply an advanced form of animal intellect. The drives of which you speak are nothing more then the need to procreate and survive experienced by all creatures. We`ve just changed our environment enough around us that those goals are expressed differently. The psychological incapacity to accept nothingness after death is the reason that your questions exist.
    It is far more likely that when we die, we cease to exist, than that some portion of us manages to live on despite any lack of proof to support it.
  55. Profile photo of BoredFrank
    BoredFrank Male 40-49
    2197 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 6:15 am
    Wow, looks like the video hit a few sore spots. Sucks to realize you`re full of crap, doesn`t it, religious types?
  56. Profile photo of EgalM
    EgalM Male 30-39
    1707 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 6:16 am
    You guys are hilarious, almost all of our morals came from the Bible. Yes, we have changed them over time, but still, that is where they originated.

    You can deny it all you want, I know that makes it easier, but older generations had more believers. That is where most laws and morals came from.

    You wanna know where the issues really come from, the people who think the people two thousand years ago thought like they do right now. For that matter, I hear most Americans claim the founding fathers think just like they do now, which is a silly concept. Completely different time periods which produce entirely different people with different world views. Doesn`t take that long for things to change.
  57. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 6:47 am
    EgalM, a lot of moral came from fairy tales as well. That doesn`t mean we should worship them and pretend they are true.

    The guy in the video makes a valid point. The God of the Bible is an evil, blood thirsty killer. Why do you pretend to love him and that he loves you?
  58. Profile photo of uptheante
    uptheante Male 30-39
    11 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 7:17 am
    @Oster

    I was pointing out the fact that it`s not logical for us to be aware of our existence, if our consciousness is going to cease to exist when we die.
    "Brain stops working, no consciousness." - not entirely true:

    Brain dead consciousness evidence

    "Well, what`s the point of dying if you haven`t really lived?" - that`s my point. You are aware that you need to live and survive, yet you also conclude that by ceasing to exist through death, your attempt at surviving was useless and of no benefit. So what purpose does consciousness provide? With that belief, none at all.
  59. Profile photo of uptheante
    uptheante Male 30-39
    11 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 7:27 am
    @Calderis

    I`m not assuming anything. I`m concluding that having an awareness of our existence poses no benefit to our survival as a species. Ceasing to exist at death makes all survival instincts and the need to procreate irrelevant and illogical. Passing on genes doesn`t prolong your existence or even help it, because you become `no more` when you cease to exist.
  60. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14544 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 7:28 am
    Theism is more likely to result in the undermining of morals than improving them.

    Why? Because along with an (outdated) moral code, it imposes an imperative that supersedes conventional community consensus morals.
  61. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 7:50 am
    @Mostly_mike: You`re describing Pascal`s Wager, and it is not a valid supposition when you factor in multiple religions as lillian said.

    I also don`t see how a religious person could technically act morally. If your system of "morals" is based on eternal punishment or eternal happiness, then there is no morality there. I don`t see how you can threaten an eternity of pain and suffering and still claim morals. One could attempt to say the same of society and its laws prohibiting socially "amoral" actions, but there is no reward for obeying the law beyond not going to jail.
  62. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1614 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 7:56 am
    He`s leaving out the part where God blesses Job for his faithfulness, God returned to Job twice what he lost, made his doubting friends ask forgiveness from Job, and gave Job 7 sons and 3 daughters and a long prosperous life.

    I remember you telling me about a relative of yours, I believe it was your great grandfather, who was native american, and how after losing his family and way of life he was able to grow up in our industrialized world and experience things he wouldn`t have had the opportunity to otherwise. My response would have been the same as it is to this statement. How does any of what they experienced later make the trauma they had to endure OK. If someone killed your sister, brother, son, mother, and then however much time later someone came and gave you a new one, would you just think, "Oh, awesome, no harm done then"?
  63. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1614 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 8:19 am
    Anyway, my point is, what if THEY (Job/your relative) didn`t see it that way. What if no subsequent actions/gifts by anyone were able to make up for the loss they experienced? Would you still approve? If your answer is yes, how is that moral?
  64. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 10:30 am
    I`m concluding that having an awareness of our existence poses no benefit to our survival as a species.

    I counter that with the argument that it is a necessary part of intelligence, which has huge benefits to our survival as a species.

    Ceasing to exist at death makes all survival instincts and the need to procreate irrelevant and illogical.

    Which doesn`t stop them existing.

    Passing on genes doesn`t prolong your existence or even help it, because you become `no more` when you cease to exist.

    True, but also irrelevant. Procreation is a biological urge - logic and reason are irrelevant to it.

    Logic and reason does explain why people often want to do things that will result in them being remembered after they die, though. It also explains tombs, gravestones and genealogy, for the same reason.
  65. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 10:37 am
    You guys are hilarious, almost all of our morals came from the Bible. Yes, we have changed them over time, but still, that is where they originated.

    I`d like to see you explain how that applies to the morals we have in common with societies that aren`t Christian or Jewish, including those that existed before Christianity existed and were completely uninfluenced by Judaism. Ancient Rome would be a good example, as quite a lot is known about it.

    Rape, slavery, torture and murder are all portrayed as being moral acts in your bible. Do you regard those things as being morally good? If not, why not?

    The only "moral" things I can think of that came from Judaism/Christianity are killing people for doing any work on a particular day of the week and killing people for having homosexual sex. Neither of which I regard as being morally good. Quite the opposite.
  66. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 10:42 am
    God is held to a much lower standard of morality than even the worst criminals on earth.

    And behaves worse than them. The most chilling portrayal of a violent, megalomanical, sociopathic gang leader is just a faint shadow of the god depicted in the Abrahamic religions.
  67. Profile photo of ticketfan
    ticketfan Male 40-49
    28 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 1:14 pm
    @elkingo "Because, the truth is, there is never a justifiable cause for hurting someone."

    So then, you agree that God did an amoral thing when he did all that stuff to Job?
  68. Profile photo of LordJim
    LordJim Male 60-69
    6650 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 1:55 pm
    <i>Making fun of someone makes you a bully</i>

    Making fun of someone <i>weaker</i> than you makes you a bully. In most places religious folks still have the whip hand.

  69. Profile photo of LordJim
    LordJim Male 60-69
    6650 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 2:09 pm
    `You guys are hilarious, almost all of our morals came from the Bible. Yes, we have changed them over time, but still, that is where they originated.`

    No, mostly we evolved them. Otherwise the species would never have made it to the bronze age.
  70. Profile photo of LastJuggalo
    LastJuggalo Female 18-29
    212 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 3:59 pm
    Why cant religion be personal and private. Like your favorite color dildo. I in fact would rather know about your favorite sexual position than what ancient, archaic ritual you participate in December.
  71. Profile photo of Boredhero78
    Boredhero78 Male 18-29
    108 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 4:47 pm
    Markust123
    "but I am really baffled by people like Boredhero78 who think morals only come from religion."
    At what point did I say morals only come from religion? I was making a point about the people whose morals DO come from religion. You can`t possibly believe that the sudden loss of those morals won`t spike crime to its all time record.
  72. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5385 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 6:24 pm
    @ticketfan "So then, you agree that God did an amoral thing when he did all that stuff to Job?"

    Here goes, although, anti-theists will not accept this reasoning.

    Job never disobeyed God. He remained faithful. You see, to a believer of God, we do not question God`s actions because he is acting in our best interest. Life, to a believer is meaningless. In other words, when someone dies, our grief is based more on our attachment to that person, that our "feeling sorry" that they died. Job`s family went to be with the Lord. Job never once was upset that he was left alone, and he followed God`s judgement, morality, leadership, and wisdom -- Job had faith.

    God rewarded that faith in the end, by blessing Job with more than he ever had before. After Job left this life he went to be with 3x the size of the family he had before God and Satan intervened. (Re-read the book of Job -- God didn`t "smite" Job`s family; rather He allowed it to h
  73. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5385 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 6:26 pm
    allowed it to happen.) -- Dunno why that part got cut off.. it had me at 880ish characters.
  74. Profile photo of SarahofBorg
    SarahofBorg Female 18-29
    3564 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 7:02 pm
    God makes people suffer everyday, and everyone blames the devil for it. Last I checked, God made the Devil and he`s doing only what God wants after all. God is infallible and would not create evil if it had no purpose, because that would be evil of God to do. Causing pointless suffering is immoral, but it`s OK because it`s what God wants. It`s the same reason terrorists murder people: because they think that`s what God wants and if God wants it that means it`s OK.
  75. Profile photo of Justahuman
    Justahuman Male 18-29
    109 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 7:33 pm
    This old man is poison.Read the bible......Job was wrecked by satan not God.God was testing the faith of one of his most righteous followers.The passage ends with Job 1:20-21

    At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:

    “Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
    and naked I will depart.
    The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
    may the name of the LORD be praised.”

  76. Profile photo of Justahuman
    Justahuman Male 18-29
    109 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 7:36 pm
    Btw....trying to prove god doesn`t exist using the old testament=Weaksauce oldest trick in the book
  77. Profile photo of Talcho
    Talcho Male 18-29
    49 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 8:32 pm
    Elkingo the point of the comparison was not to dismiss the "lesson" of Job but to show how when given two similar examples a religiously minded person will defend the morals of the bible vs any other despite the events being the same.

    If I killed your mother I would be monster, if God killed your mother he is trying to teach you something, and that`s ok.
  78. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5385 posts
    November 21, 2011 at 9:50 pm
    No Talco, it isn`t the same thing at all.
  79. Profile photo of uptheante
    uptheante Male 30-39
    11 posts
    November 22, 2011 at 4:02 pm
    @angilion

    I counter that with the argument that it is a necessary part of intelligence, which has huge benefits to our survival as a species."

    Let us assume, for example, that a comet hits the Earth and all life is annihilated. It is very hard to accept, but if consciousness is nothing more than a physical phenomena, if there is no non-physical life after death, the most logical conclusion is that the complete annihilation of humankind is of absolutely no consequence to humankind. The moment after the total destruction of humankind there is no humankind left to be affected. Indeed, there is no humankind around that is conscious of the fact that the comet struck the earth.
  80. Profile photo of uptheante
    uptheante Male 30-39
    11 posts
    November 22, 2011 at 4:03 pm
    @angilion

    "Which doesn`t stop them existing."

    But you cease to be, so having them continue existing is of no consequence to you.

    "True, but also irrelevant. Procreation is a biological urge - logic and reason are irrelevant to it."

    Yet you say the `reason` for a biological urge is for preocreation! therefore, all this urge is accomplishing, is to create human beings waiting their turn to cease existing. If each and every human being ceases to be in the end, then the feeling of continuity that pervades the human race is false.

    Well that is if you believe life is destroyed after physical death.
  81. Profile photo of uptheante
    uptheante Male 30-39
    11 posts
    November 22, 2011 at 4:04 pm
    @angilion

    "Logic and reason does explain why people often want to do things that will result in them being remembered after they die, though. It also explains tombs, gravestones and genealogy, for the same reason."

    So what is that logic? You can make the distinction that while human being cannot have a present and a future if they do not exist, they somehow can have a past. It is clear that the present and future of this person is bound to the existence of this person, but so to is the person`s past. It is a misconception to equate the fact that there is a "history" of human beings that is set in the "past", with the statement that a human being that no longer exists has a "past". We can say that the being existed over a finite period that is apparent to those who currently exist, or that there is a “history” set in the past that is the sum of all lifetimes. But a person who no longer exists has no “past”
  82. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 22, 2011 at 5:13 pm
    The moment after the total destruction of humankind there is no humankind left to be affected. Indeed, there is no humankind around that is conscious of the fact that the comet struck the earth.

    Yes. And?

  83. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 22, 2011 at 5:16 pm
    "True, but also irrelevant. Procreation is a biological urge - logic and reason are irrelevant to it."

    Yet you say the `reason` for a biological urge is for preocreation!

    No, I don`t. But I applaud the accuracy and understanding you show by putting marking the word that way, i.e. as not actually being a reason.

    therefore, all this urge is accomplishing, is to create human beings waiting their turn to cease existing.

    Yes.

    If each and every human being ceases to be in the end, then the feeling of continuity that pervades the human race is false.

    Yes.

    Scary idea, isn`t it?
  84. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 22, 2011 at 5:26 pm
    So what is that logic?

    It isn`t logical. Logic and reason can explain why people do it, but it isn`t itself logical.

    It`s an attempt to have some form of immortality.

    Your counter-argument is excellent. It`s refreshing to see a theist who actually thinks.

    You can make the distinction that while human being cannot have a present and a future if they do not exist, they somehow can have a past.

    You`re right - they don`t have a past. But other people who still exist have a perception of their past. Fake immortality is reassuring to many people.
  85. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 22, 2011 at 5:31 pm
    To clarify:

    Person who is living:

    If I am remembered after my death, I won`t truly die. Not really.

    If I know who my ancestors were, then they`re sort of still alive in some way and that proves that it can be done, so my descendents might do the same thing for me.

    It`s nonsense when it`s written down and people don`t think it that clearly, but it`s there. You`ve probably heard talk about people living in other people`s memories.
  86. Profile photo of uptheante
    uptheante Male 30-39
    11 posts
    November 22, 2011 at 6:46 pm
    @Angilion

    So in conclusion, as you agree that human beings are just waiting to cease existing and the feeling of continuity that pervades the human race is false, why is there this biological urge to survive and have offspring?

    Life has meaning and content and we have this internal urge to experience this life to the fullest, yet agreeing that consciousness inevitably ceases to exist at death, makes this statement fallible, yet clearly it is not.
  87. Profile photo of itslukey
    itslukey Male 18-29
    1 post
    November 22, 2011 at 8:46 pm
    He is totally wrong!
    Satan said Job only served God because he blessed him, God said that is not true Job served God because he wanted to not cause of "benefits". Satan tested Job not God. He.killed his family, home, livestock, and gave him leprosy.
    Even his wife said "curse God and die"! But he didn`t.
    And after God gave Job even more children and more livestock than he had before.
    It was a test of human faith and endurance not a cruel joke by God.
  88. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 23, 2011 at 4:50 pm
    So in conclusion, as you agree that human beings are just waiting to cease existing and the feeling of continuity that pervades the human race is false, why is there this biological urge to survive and have offspring?

    No reason. You`re presuming that there is a reason, which requires a god or gods creating everything, with a plan. You can`t logically use a conclusion as supporting argument for itself.

  89. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 23, 2011 at 4:57 pm
    Life has meaning and content and we have this internal urge to experience this life to the fullest, yet agreeing that consciousness inevitably ceases to exist at death, makes this statement fallible, yet clearly it is not.

    It`s incorrect on a large enough scale, but it`s perceived to be correct on an individual scale and it`s that perception that matters.

    To put it another way, my life has meaning and content to me because I think it does. On a global scale, or on a national scale, or on any scale larger than the relatively tiny number of people I know, my life is meaningless.

    For example, it`s almost certain that someone died in Carmona(a small town in Spain that I picked at random) this week. How did that affect you? A person you`d never heard of dying quietly in a town you never knew existed. Them and millions of others people you`ve never heard of dying in places you never knew existed. With no effect on you.

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