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Category: Science
Date: 11/17/11 08:24 AM

186 Responses to Atheism: A Persuasive Argument?

  1. Profile photo of Buiadh
    Buiadh Male 30-39
    6739 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:25 am
    Link: Atheism: A Persuasive Argument? - Christians, does thinking like this shake your belief?
  2. Profile photo of Victim
    Victim Male 70 & Over
    219 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:31 am
    this made me a lot less bored
  3. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:37 am
    I was just having this exact same conversation with my grandmother the other night... She kept saying "Well our bible tells us..." and I kept saying "Well THEIR book tells THEM..."

    No success... generation gap I suppose
  4. Profile photo of Aints
    Aints Male 18-29
    153 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:40 am
    I don`t really know why people even have these arguments... If you believe or not, keep that mess personal. But I will put the smack down on someone trying to preach to me, literally smack them, in their mouth.
  5. Profile photo of Justin9235
    Justin9235 Male 18-29
    1582 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:40 am
    That`s how I view Christianity.. good speech.
  6. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:41 am
    Wow, another video designed to make people with faith look unreasonable, irrational and stupid. Loaded terms like "indoctrination" are pure atheist rhetoric intended to portray organized religion as something only the weak-minded believe in.

    No, something like this does NOT shake my faith, because by definition, faith is not something to be argued or disproved by academic discourse. Faith is something that you believe, not something you know.

    Furthermore, MOST (but not all) people in western society are tolerant of other faiths and don`t actually believe that somebody will go to hell for following the "wrong" religion. MOST religious people believe that so long as you live a good life and follow your belief, God will accept you regardless of what faith you hold. MOST of us do not try to impose our belief system on others, it would be nice if atheists would do the same.

    "To look out at this kind of creation and not believe in God
  7. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:42 am
    One cannot argue against faith. One can point out, again and again and again, with complete and irrefutable logic, the fallacy of faith (as this video brilliantly does), but, by its very nature, true faith is unshakable, it is unquestioning, it doesn`t seek truth, but rather seeks only self-validation, on that which validates the held faith. It is blind to all else. By it`s nature. As such, arguing against it is pointless. Yet, in this case, it was beautifully done. And bravo for it, because, maybe it`ll cause someone to actually *think* before drinking the Kool-Aid. Maybe. :-)
  8. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:43 am
    @Aints out of curiosity, would you smack someone trying to preach atheism in their mouth too? 8-)
  9. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:45 am
    Kilgore89, interesting that you say that MOST of you don`t try to impose your belief system on others. Do they allow gay marriage in Canada? We sure don`t here. I wonder why that is? Or, hey, what about anti-abortionists trying to force women who`ve been raped/molested to carry to full term the babies that resulted from such attacks. You can claim a kind and benevolent god all you want, and that`s fine, but, let`s not pretend that you (as a whole) keep your faith to yourself and don`t try to shove it down my throat. Because that`s a lie. And easily disproved.
  10. Profile photo of panzerlancer
    panzerlancer Male 18-29
    130 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:48 am
    i lol at religion
  11. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:48 am
    Kilgore89:
    "MOST religious people believe that so long as you live a good life and follow your belief, God will accept you regardless of what faith you hold."
    --------------------
    Seeing how the Bible you follow say the exact opposite of that, I`d have to assume that you`ll be going to Hell for spreading such blasphemous lies.

    Luckily, as an Atheist, I don`t have to worry about any of that stuff. Folks like you, on the other hand, are pretty much doomed to burn in a fiery Hell for all eternity, just for waking up in the morning. Good luck with that.
  12. Profile photo of morimacil123
    morimacil123 Male 18-29
    171 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:49 am
    "Wow, another video designed to make people with faith look unreasonable, irrational and stupid. "

    "something like this does NOT shake my faith, because by definition, faith is not something to be argued or disproved by academic discourse. Faith is something that you believe, not something you know. "

    I find your arguments strange. You start off saying atheists are trying to make you look irrational and unreasonable, and then you go on to say that faith isnt something rational, and cant be argued by reason, so also unreasonable.

    Faith IS irrational and unreasonable by its very definition, as you correctly say.
    So why is it so bad if atheists make that clear?

    Furthermore, he isnt trying to change anyone`s mind, or convert anyone, he is just trying to explain to a believer the way an atheist thinks, in terms they can relate to.
  13. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36647 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:49 am

    Science flies you to the moon.
    Religion flies you into buildings.
  14. Profile photo of Aints
    Aints Male 18-29
    153 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:50 am
    What the Bible says about YOU if you claim you are a Christian.
    1. You HAVE to believe (as fact) that if you do not believe in Jesus you are going to hell. Why? Because that is what the bible says.
    2. You must believe what the Bible says. Why? Because that is what the fu## the Bible says.
    3. You MUST spread the word of Jesus Christ, that is your duty as a Christian of the Bible. Why? You know the answer.
    4. If you question the above facts, you are disobeying God and "are lukewarm" (hint, bible verse) and must leave the Body Of Christ.


  15. Profile photo of unmercyfuldu
    unmercyfuldu Male 18-29
    762 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:51 am
    You cannot reason someone out of something they did not us reason to reach.
  16. Profile photo of chance13
    chance13 Male 40-49
    219 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:52 am
    Another academic attempt to dissuade those with faith...honestly, this won`t shake anyone`s faith unless they had none to begin with...wouldn`t your time be better spent focusing on some of the actual problems of society rather than making attacks at other folk`s faith?
  17. Profile photo of bliznik
    bliznik Male 30-39
    836 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:56 am
    Umm...not at all. A few things here: (1) Christianity never states that unbelievers go to hell. Unbelievers merely aren`t "saved." Unbelievers are then judged upon the day of Judgment, (2) while children can be indoctrinated into one religion, adults can choose other religions after performing an objective analysis regarding whether they resonate with that religion, (3) one of the fundamental differences between Christianity and other religions is that, according to Christianity, the Lord FORGIVES and GRACES those who accept and believe in Him, and people do good works as a result of their love of God, not as a prerequisite to getting into Heaven, and (4) to state that any God, Allah or otherwise, could give an omnipotent sign that could convince EVERYONE is ridiculous. Every religious text gives instances of miracles being performed, and of skeptics remaining skeptical. Such is the way of free will.
  18. Profile photo of simbha
    simbha Male 30-39
    412 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:00 am
    Kilgore89: MOST of us do not try to impose our belief system on others, it would be nice if atheists would do the same.

    Most individuals don`t do this, but the society as a whole has elements of a Judeo-Christian belief system. In fact, some of the hot button issues in our society today are grounded in one side having a particular interpretation of Judeo-Christian beliefs.

    Beyond the Ten Commandments (some of which, such as the rejection of lying or stealing, are common to most societies), many people...

    ... support the teaching of creatonism or `intelligent design` in science classrooms. Neither is science.

    and

    ... advocate the control of a woman`s body through a rejection of abortion, on Biblical grounds.

    If theists (and that is not limited to Christians) wish to have a conversation about issues unrelating to any religious belief system (including atheism), that`s fine. But, that`s simply not the case.
  19. Profile photo of AGit
    AGit Male 30-39
    995 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:04 am
    "MOST religious people believe that so long as you live a good life and follow your belief, God will accept you regardless of what faith you hold"

    So... what`s the point of being a Christian?
  20. Profile photo of bliznik
    bliznik Male 30-39
    836 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:10 am
    @Aints, lots of false assumptions there. Lemme point out a few:

    1. You HAVE to believe (as fact) that if you do not believe in Jesus you are going to hell. Why? Because that is what the bible says.
    Nope, you don`t. The Christian Bible states that if you don`t believe in Jesus you are saved, and it also states that if you have heard the gospel, understand the gospel, and THEN reject the gospel, you will be condemned. (I`d argue that very few people have heard and understood the entire gospel, even many Christians)

    2. You must believe what the Bible says. Why? Because that is what the fu## the Bible says.
    Umm, no, you can reject it if you want to. Everyone has choice. You just also have to accept the consequences of your actions.

    3. You MUST spread the word of Jesus Christ, that is your duty as a Christian of the Bible. Why? You know the answer.
    Again, no. You SHOULD if you truly love God and love your neighbors, but you don`t have
  21. Profile photo of TheLargeOne
    TheLargeOne Male 30-39
    103 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:11 am
    @bliznik: You said it yourself. Religious TEXTS give instances of miracles being performed. I`m sorry, if a book tells me that the oceans are made of syrup, I`m not just going to believe it. I want to see for myself that the ocean is made of syrup, not just believe something blindly
  22. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:13 am
    And yet Christianity is the largest single growing religion in the world. 1.9 billion - 2.1 billion people, 33% of the world`s population.

    Now ask yourself why ? Why are people converting even at the risk of their own lives (apostasy is a crime in some nations) ? Maybe it`s because the message of Christ is so compelling, so full of truth, wisdom, peace, and hope that it`s preferable to the alternatives.
  23. Profile photo of Aints
    Aints Male 18-29
    153 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:18 am
    @bliznik Well well... Not being "saved" *sniff.. Don`t you have to believe in Jesus to be saved? So, like I said, if you are not "saved" (if you want to put it that way) you are going to hell...
    Matthew 23:33 - Hell
    2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 - Hell
    John 14:6 - "Through me"
    Romans 10:9 - "saved"

  24. Profile photo of NILE12
    NILE12 Male 18-29
    157 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:18 am
    I don`t really think he`s trying to make an argument right there.
  25. Profile photo of morimacil123
    morimacil123 Male 18-29
    171 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:22 am
    "MOST religious people believe that so long as you live a good life and follow your belief, God will accept you regardless of what faith you hold"

    It is true that ironically, most religious people dont truly believe in what the bible(or their specific holy book) says, but instead believe in pretty much what they want to believe, whether it is in agreement with their holy book or not.

    For example, Deuteronomy 23:19-20, Leviticus 25:35-37, and Exodus 22:25 state that you shall not lend money to a fellow christian.
    Most christians choose not to follow that belief, because it would be a conflicting interest with their intent to make easy money.

    So yeah, most christians believe that if you follow a set of moral principles which is their own, (but some of it might be loosely based on some parts of the bible), you will go to heaven.
  26. Profile photo of Aints
    Aints Male 18-29
    153 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:22 am
    @bliznik

    Matthew 28:19 Spread the word
    1 Corinthians 11:1-2 command
    Mark 16:15-16 Go spread that ish

    Should I keep going?
  27. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:24 am
    CrakrJak:
    "And yet Christianity is the largest single growing religion in the world. 1.9 billion - 2.1 billion people, 33% of the world`s population.

    Now ask yourself why ? Why are people converting even at the risk of their own lives (apostasy is a crime in some nations) ? Maybe it`s because the message of Christ is so compelling, so full of truth, wisdom, peace, and hope that it`s preferable to the alternatives."
    ----------------

    Actually, I think it has more to do with the rules. Things like the "Clown car vagina" Dugger woman, who has 20 little mindless drones to further her religious propaganda far outweighs the one, "science and logic" based child that I raised.
  28. Profile photo of chickiesue86
    chickiesue86 Male 70 & Over
    273 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:25 am
    really like sam harris. there are soooo many very sarcastic things you can say in argument for atheism, but all it does it make religious people feel even more defensive and not open up. he refrains from speaking in a way that turns people off, and instead of attacking people he finds ways to broaden his audience. we need that.
  29. Profile photo of morimacil123
    morimacil123 Male 18-29
    171 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:26 am
    And yet Christianity is the largest single growing religion in the world. 1.9 billion - 2.1 billion people, 33% of the world`s population.

    "Now ask yourself why ? Why are people converting even at the risk of their own lives (apostasy is a crime in some nations) ? Maybe it`s because the message of Christ is so compelling, so full of truth, wisdom, peace, and hope that it`s preferable to the alternatives. "

    Its most likely because thats what they are being taught.

    In the western world, most kids grow up believing in santa claus, a jolly fat man with a white beard that lives in the north pole and performs miracles once a year.
    Do they believe in santa, the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, and so on because their messages are so full of truth, wisdom and peace?
    Probably not. They probably believe in santa, the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, and so on because their parents told them they exist, and they believe their parents.
  30. Profile photo of Buiadh
    Buiadh Male 30-39
    6739 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:36 am
    Christianity of for the weak of will, CrakrJak, that is why it is so compelling.
  31. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:38 am
    And let`s not pretend Christians don`t force their beliefs down our throats on a daily basis. Some here have already mentioned the schools, government policies etc. There is also a ton of propaganda in our society. We are buried in it. Did you know that the Catholic Church, in an attempt to convert "Lost Atheists", bought the domain atheist.ca and had it redirect to a Catholic website?
  32. Profile photo of PhotoKing
    PhotoKing Male 30-39
    526 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:53 am
    they say christianity is huge and growing, but it`s not. the fact that there are over 33,000 different version of that religion, each with it`s own rules and stories. you can`t call them all christians, you have to call them by their version. which is a different religion.

    and while some will argue that if they all believe in jesus in some way, then it can be called christianity. yet, i don`t think catholics consider mormons christians. and they don`t like protestant either. yet they are all of one religion, and yet they aren`t at the same time. they are all the same until they need to group themselves up into a nice package.
  33. Profile photo of Webz
    Webz Male 18-29
    542 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:55 am
    I would love to see William Lane Craig`s response. He`s a very good philosopher and has debated and defeated many atheist philosophers. I have heard him give lectures on historic proof and reasons why Christianity is the `correct` religion and he also discusses the issue of an omnipotent God and why he doesn`t just make himself clearly known to the population of earth (or at least how he`s trying).

    It`s very interesting stuff but obviously I-Am-Athiest wouldn`t care to link to one of those videos.
  34. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14620 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:57 am
    "And yet Christianity is the largest single growing religion in the world."
    Because Christians converted most of the world at swordpoint, tortured apostates and because Catholics turn women into breeding stock by denying them control over their own bodies.
    Christianity (all denominations combined) is the world’s slowest growing major religion. It’s barely keeping pace with population growth.
    Islam: 1.84%
    The Bahai Faith: 1.70%
    Sikhism:1.62%
    Jainism: 1.57%
    Hinduism: 1.52%
    Christianity: 1.38%
    Source: foreignpolicy.com
    "Why are people converting...? Maybe it`s because the message of Christ is so compelling, so full of truth, wisdom, peace, and hope that it`s preferable to the alternatives."
    Maybe it`s because life under Sharia sucks, because Christianity has aggressive missionaries, or because the figures are all messed up and there are less conversions that you are led to believe.
  35. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:09 am
    Buiadh: `...weak of will` really ? There is a converted Christian preacher in Iran right now facing the death penalty if he doesn`t convert back to islam.

    There are Christian preachers in India, China, Indonesia and Egypt facing similar threats on a daily basis, `weak of will`, hardly!
  36. Profile photo of Aints
    Aints Male 18-29
    153 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:10 am
    Fact, 74% of Christians own 2 or more cats.

    Fact, Around 1/3 of Christians drive a Focus.

    Fact, If you mess with men who are bald, God will send down bears to kill children. (Lick that up, no really that happened, lmao)

    Fact, 25% of donations to the church are sent to Snapple.
  37. Profile photo of Buiadh
    Buiadh Male 30-39
    6739 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:12 am
    @Crakr, I mean it in the sense that some people feel the need to find a justification for their life, they find thay`re unable to exist without calming their fears about purpose and life after death. These people turn to religion.

    I singled out Christianity in my last post simply because of the video in question. I`d band all religions in the same bracket, being a regigious fundamentalist does not make you strong willed, it means you`ve been successfully brain washed.
  38. Profile photo of nosecret
    nosecret Male 18-29
    62 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:15 am
    im going to love, forgive, and serve everyone as I have been instructed. im such an evil christian!! heheh
  39. Profile photo of collegebound
    collegebound Male 18-29
    3745 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:22 am
    Aints: Fact. your "facts" are bullpoo...including the bible one...

    God didnt send down anything...2 bears came from the woods...bears cant fly you silly...
  40. Profile photo of bliznik
    bliznik Male 30-39
    836 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:24 am
    @Aints
    Matthew 23:33 - Yes, if you follow the principles that support killing Jesus, you will go to Hell

    2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 - If you are not educated on the gospel you will be JUDGED (not necessarily condemned), but if you are educated and CHOOSE to follow Satan, then you will be condemned

    John 14:6 - Yes, Jesus is a gatekeeper of heaven. He has the power to forgive unbelievers, like he forgave those who crucified him because THEY DID NOT KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING.

    Romans 10:9 - yes, if you believe you are saved. That doesn`t necessarily mean that if you do not believe, you are not saved.

    Matthew 28:19 - This command was given to just his disciples, not of all Christians.

    1 Corinthians 11:1-2 - Umm, yeah, you should praise people who do good works. Even atheists praise people who do good works.

    Mark 16:15-16 - Again, this command was given to the disciples. Not all Christians.

    So, again, where is your evidence? =/
  41. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:26 am
    "Maybe it`s because the message of Christ is so compelling, so full of truth, wisdom, peace, and hope that it`s preferable to the alternatives. "

    When I was a Christian, I was terrified of even thinking the wrong thing. I was raised in a mostly secular home and I rarely went to church, just the bits I knew about the religion scared me. I believed it was true, sure, but I always felt awful when I heard someone wasn`t a Christian because I hated that they`d be punished for something that`s not their fault. It was a lot easier for me to obtain "truth, wisdom, peace, and hope" once I finally left the religion at 16 because I stopped being terrified of the thought police. What made me start really questioning my religion was having to read parts of the Bible for my English lit class. Reading the stories for myself made me realize how completely ridiculous they are xD
  42. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:28 am
    "Now ask yourself why ? Why are people converting even at the risk of their own lives (apostasy is a crime in some nations) ? Maybe it`s because the message of Christ is so compelling, so full of truth, wisdom, peace, and hope that it`s preferable to the alternatives. "

    People people like yourself are to ignorant to take responsibility of your own action. You sleep comfortably in the thought that if you do something wrong, its not your fault, Satan made you do it. It dooenst matter if a family member has been pious then dies slowly in a fire, its just testing the faith.

    Religion as a whole, but especially a "Do good or be damned" religions were built on a foundry of control. There is absolutely 0, none zero, nil...NOTHING, No proof any "Miracle" in the bible actually happened. All you have is a book full of children`s stories..


    drating sheep
  43. Profile photo of Kreaol
    Kreaol Male 18-29
    52 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:30 am
    Would be interested to here what the previous person had said, but disregarding: There are plenty of fundamental issues between Islam and Christianity, but we won`t go there. I just have one note I would like to give in response to the "compassion" he asked for:

    If a god (or God) showed a sign to that guy AND the crowd right then and there, and heck even caught it on CAMERA, here is EXACTLY what would happen:

    1. People in the crowd my become christian`s (or Muslim`s in this case).
    2. People watching the video later would discount the video as nothing more then video effects
    3. The "sign" would later be even rejected by (some/most/all) the people who witnessed it, as that is human nature: Grand things become less grand overtime unless it is experienced again.
  44. Profile photo of bliznik
    bliznik Male 30-39
    836 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:32 am
    @morimacil123 - That`s a very good point. When you`re young, you pretty much have to believe what your parents tell/teach you, but when you`re old, you have the power to analyze, think, react, and choose what to believe. An adult has the choice to continue to believe in Santa Claus, or to reject Santa. Adult Christians also have that choice. Adults of other beliefs also have the choice to accept Christianity or to reject it. All about free will here.

    @TheLargeOne - I wholeheartedly agree. I find blind faith appalling and ridiculous, especially when applied to Christianity. Even the disciples didn`t have blind faith, they questioned Jesus ALL THE FRIGGIN` TIME. Faith in anything...in a wife, or your parents, or your friends, or even in scientific principles, is built over a long period of time after its principles have held true for you. You should only believe in that which you have personally experienced.
  45. Profile photo of Kreaol
    Kreaol Male 18-29
    52 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:32 am
    @Steelgrid

    You have summarized my point very nicely. Even though we still today have things science cannot explain, science simply says "we will explain it someday". In short, even if you saw a miracle in front of your eyes, you would say "science will explain eventually".
  46. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:33 am
    ....and before you try to flame me, you know you will, I want any of you religious defenders to put down your book. Dont talk about it, dont open it, now without that little pack of paper...Show....Me....Proof.

    I can show you phisical evidence of many (not all) things that you dont even believe exsits. I can give you physical proof of things that are called "Blasphoumous". Lets see you prove one thing. One tiny thing. A real angel? An actual sightining of God? Maybe a real demon or Satan doing his work? I mean if he is so evil, why hide?

    Again, dont reference your book. Bring something real or STFU!!!
  47. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:36 am
    "You have summarized my point very nicely. Even though we still today have things science cannot explain, science simply says "we will explain it someday". In short, even if you saw a miracle in front of your eyes, you would say "science will explain eventually".
    "

    Thing is. Not a single miracle has EVER been documented. Not a single provable instance of a god handled miracle. If I saw a "Miracle" happen in front of me, I wouldnt call it a miracle, I would call it what it is. Considering a Miracle has NEVER been proven to happen, Im sure that whatever happens in front of me with be the result of a chain of events that lead to that moment. I dont veil myself behind such ignorance that I see frogs and fish raining from the sky and think im cursed...No, I know that it would be the result of a weather anomaly.

    drating sheep
  48. Profile photo of Aints
    Aints Male 18-29
    153 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:38 am
    @bliznik Now hold on one second here buddy, you`re not sucking me into a "debate" with your ending "So, again, where is your evidence? =/" I never said " I will now provide evidence to my case.. ". I was just pointing out what the Bible says and I`m sure thousands, maybe millions would agree with my interpretation. You are trying to go all "I win" on me, when honestly I don`t care, well, never cared. So, sorry is has come to this.
  49. Profile photo of Aints
    Aints Male 18-29
    153 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:39 am
    And I don`t believe in God, but I do believe in this..
    Deuteronomy 25:11-1
  50. Profile photo of Kreaol
    Kreaol Male 18-29
    52 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:39 am
    Ok: I can show you your physical proof as soon as you show me yours. Don`t open your textbook or ask your professor on HIS thoughts. Instead, show me physical proof of how matter came into being. Simple, plain, matter.

    You can`t have nothing without nothing in the first place, so where did nothing come from?
  51. Profile photo of Aints
    Aints Male 18-29
    153 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:39 am
    Deuteronomy 25:11-12
  52. Profile photo of bliznik
    bliznik Male 30-39
    836 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:41 am
    @Steelgrid

    "People people like yourself are to ignorant to take responsibility of your own action...its not your fault, Satan made you do it."
    Umm, no, you can choose to follow Satan (destroy other people, other relationships, spread hate, etc.) if you wish. Satan may TEMPT Christians, but a Christian choosing to actually act on such temptations is at fault.

    "Religion as a whole, but especially a `Do good or be damned` religions were built on a foundry of control."
    True, but Christianity isn`t built on that. Christianity is built upon embracing God, loving God, and ultimately spreading the good works of God as a result of your love.

    "There is absolutely 0, none zero, nil...NOTHING, No proof any `Miracle` in the bible actually happened."
    By that same argument, Alexander the Great never existed, b/c there is no "proof." We only know he existed b/c of anecdotal evidence...stories...that he did what
  53. Profile photo of Apexs
    Apexs Male 30-39
    355 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:41 am
    @ Kilgore89 - The speaker is not talking about most religions; he is talking about the religion set forth by the other speaker. He is in whole referring to Christianity and the majority of Christianity (not religion) states with out a doubt that if you are not a Christian and you do not follow X sect of Christianity you will in fact burn in hell.
  54. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:43 am
    You see Kraeol, you attempt to try to defend your ghost by saying that science cant explain everything. Your pittiful religion TRIED to explain everything with a ghost and has consistently been proved WRONG as science advances. Or do you forget that the church KILLED the man that tried to say the earth was round. The church excommunicated the man who PROVED the earth was not the center of the universe. The church murdered the man that found out the Earth revolves around the sun. OH the church was wrong that heaven was in the sky and hell was in lava. Now they are considered "metaphorical references". You stupid drats dont even know what to believe. So do not try to defend something that hasnt even figured out what rules to believe and what rules to call blasphemous.
  55. Profile photo of Burton_Ian
    Burton_Ian Male 18-29
    815 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:44 am
    Hmmmm.... easily, regect the model of religious exclusivism and adopt religious plurualism... done
    Regect the objective dogma in light of the subjective experience.

    Ha I actually just wrote an 8 pg paper on this subject this morning.
  56. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:46 am
    "(destroy other people, other relationships, spread hate, etc.)"

    Hey sheep, Sata was never documented as doing any of these things. BUT!!!!! Your god has done ALL of these things.

    Destroy other People - Sodom, Flooding the earth

    Destroy Relationship - "God hates fag" `Nuff said

    Spread Hate - God hates fags, the crusades, Westboro

    Hell by your own words, Satan is more loving than your god. At least he doenst REQUIRE faith. At least he doesnt spread diseases to test your faith.

    I think you are worshiping the wrong diety.
  57. Profile photo of bliznik
    bliznik Male 30-39
    836 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:46 am
    @Aints My apologies if you thought I was "baiting you." I thought you were trying to prove a point that the Bible says those things. I just don`t see it. I know that people have twisted the Bible`s words to say those things (mainly extremist Christians or Atheists who debate with those extremist Christians), but I just wanted to try to point out that those interpretations don`t come from the Bible. They come from people professing themselves to be Christian, who use the Bible to further a separate own agenda.

    Nice one on the Deuteronomy quote. The old testament Deuteronomy laws WERE ridiculous and WERE overriden by the coming of Christ tho`, according to the New Testament.
  58. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:49 am
    By that same argument, Alexander the Great never existed, b/c there is no "proof." We only know he existed b/c of anecdotal evidence...stories...that he did what

    You`re conflating anecdotal with empirical
  59. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:49 am
    "Ok: I can show you your physical proof as soon as you show me yours. Don`t open your textbook or ask your professor on HIS thoughts. Instead, show me physical proof of how matter came into being. Simple, plain, matter.

    You can`t have nothing without nothing in the first place, so where did nothing come from?"

    Haha you idiot, done and done.

    -Dog breeding, 3 generation can change a dog`s coat color. Change the enviroment, and the next generation is born maybe with longer nails. Small step toword proving evolution.

    The earth really is round. Dont forget your religion had to be PROVEN WRONG that th earth is not flat.

    oh look, heaven really isnt in the sky...Oh but that was just a metaphorical phrase right?

    Oh damn, weather is real!!!! Its not a curse to be flooded, or a curse to have locusts and drought.

    Oh damn women can do math without witchcraft!!!

    Oh damn black people ARE the same.....

    Need I go
  60. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1610 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:51 am
    "By that same argument, Alexander the Great never existed, b/c there is no "proof." We only know he existed b/c of anecdotal evidence...stories...that he did what"

    Alexandria
  61. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:51 am
    Every example and more that I just gave were ALL considered wrong, blasphoumous, or even completely against the church. So tell me, you want to try that again? Where is your burning bush. Where is your virgin-raping god? Where is your faith that relies on your god sacrificing his own son to save his own creation from his own wrath?!?!? Just plain ignorant sheep.
  62. Profile photo of PirateNinja
    PirateNinja Female 13-17
    121 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:52 am
    I would just like to point out that nowhere in his discussion does the speaker try to convince Christians that Christianity is the wrong religion. He is simply trying to give some insight into how non-christians, atheists, and other secularists view Christianity and ask that they stop trying to convert us.

    The implied slight on Christianity comes completely from the title and the tagline of the post.
  63. Profile photo of Kreaol
    Kreaol Male 18-29
    52 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:52 am
    @Steelgrid

    Hmmm, please don`t confuse the past "church" and "christians" with what Jesus taught. Doing something or believing something in the NAME of something else does not inherently make that belief wrong/stupid/pigheaded.

    I could account for multiple entries in the past where someone said "I am an athiest" or "I am a muslim" or "I am an American" and then murdered people. Does that mean all athiests/muslims/american`s are murderers? No, it just means that someone branded themselves as something and performed an action under that branding and pinned their personal belief to something that had nothing to do with with that personal belief.
  64. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:53 am
    HA! Yeah, I love the idea that God is "trying" to show Himself to the world. Whatever. If there was a God with even an ounce of compassion, He`d just show himself. If He`s all-powerful, He could EASILY do that in such a way as there would be NO QUESTION about whether or not it was fake. You know why He doesn`t do that, though? Theists claim is so we can exercise our "fee will". Fine. All I know is that if I had the ability to prove to my children, beyond a shadow of a doubt, without question, and in an all-powerful way, exactly how to do something, such that there could be no refuting it, I damned sure drating would. I wouldn`t play with them like so many toys, daring them to get it right. Then again, I`m not God.
  65. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:53 am
    ""By that same argument, Alexander the Great never existed, b/c there is no "proof." We only know he existed b/c of anecdotal evidence...stories...that he did what"

    Alexandria"

    His casket was found, DNA reviewed against possible brood, and even a cause of death has been found....NEXT!!!!

    this isnt about someone who was alive and dead. Something that can rot. If god and satan are there, then they can be shown and proven. So no, your example is not the same thing.
  66. Profile photo of Apexs
    Apexs Male 30-39
    355 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:55 am
    @Kreaol - matter is for one thing, solid, liquid, and gas. anyway, matter is made up of atoms and molecules. a atom is a basic unit that consists of a dense central nucleus surrounded by a cloud of negatively charged electrons. I can keep braking each step down for you if you like but we all know where is is going.

  67. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:55 am
    "Hmmm, please don`t confuse the past "church" and "christians" with what Jesus taught. Doing something or believing something in the NAME of something else does not inherently make that belief wrong/stupid/pigheaded.
    "

    Ohhhhhhh so you are a fair-weather christian. You only believe the things that benefit you without any thought to what your religion was founded on.

    How about you figure out what to believe, either the teachings of MAN, which is what your are preaching, or the teaching of the original GOD< which according to your own bible, had to rape someone to even have a son.....

    So again Kraeol, try agin
  68. Profile photo of Kreaol
    Kreaol Male 18-29
    52 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:55 am
    "Dog breeding, 3 generation can change a dog`s coat color. Change the enviroment, and the next generation is born maybe with longer nails. Small step toword proving evolution. "

    I intended for you to go further. I was not bringing up evolution. Think back to the "big bang": I stated the coming to being of matter itself, not matter building on matter.
  69. Profile photo of Kreaol
    Kreaol Male 18-29
    52 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:59 am
    I will essentially end my conversation here. Do note that I did not need to open my Bible to explain things as was asked, yet the Bible and its contents was brought to question multiple times anyways. Disregarding, I will end with one of my favorite over-heard quotes:

    "To give knowledge to him who seeks it not, is only to give him more fodder for misinterpretation."
  70. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:00 am
    Steelgrid: unbelievers will unbelieve, a miracle could land on your face and you wouldn`t believe.

    In your mind you can`t believe otherwise it might mean that science can`t explain it all, that there might be mysteries that will never be explained and that scares you.
  71. Profile photo of pakalolo
    pakalolo Male 30-39
    19 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:00 am
    THERE IS NO GOD... I CAN PROVE IT. "HEY GOD, IF YOURE REAL STIKE ME DEAD NOW!!!!! RIGHT NOW!! I MEAN IT!!" IM STILL HERE... NOW TO FIND THOSE UNICORNS
  72. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:03 am
    In your mind you can`t believe otherwise it might mean that science can`t explain it all, that there might be mysteries that will never be explained and that scares you.

    Ad hominem
  73. Profile photo of Buiadh
    Buiadh Male 30-39
    6739 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:04 am
    Actually Crakr the opposite is true, Science can NOT explain everything and often has to use theories to explain things. These theories are made my very intelligent people.

    Your average weak willed Theist doesn`t like holes and what-ifs in their beliefs so they fill them with magic. It`s like filling a Sudoku puzzle using only the number 1.
  74. Profile photo of SlothOfDoom
    SlothOfDoom Male 30-39
    2033 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:04 am
    Something can`t come from nothing. Except god, because drat you I say so.
  75. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:07 am
    Crackr, you are late to the ignorant comment of "If a miracle happened in front of you, you wouldnt believe it"

    You couldnt explain to me a real miracle anyway. You really cant. Hell YOU cant even accept a miracle if it happened.

    Dont believe me, allow me to reference the church calling a picture a woman took of a possible angel from a plane BLASPHEMOUS!!! They did that because no one in their right mind believes that people have wings.

    Really, why would I want to see a miracle. Why would I want to see a rapist god do magic tricks for his creation?

    Take away the word faith, and you people have nothing. At least I dont have to have faith to know how to grow food. At least I dont need faith to make people do something responsible. At least I dont need faith to explain something terrible to feel comfortable. At least when something goes right, I know who to thank. Oh, and they say you are welcome. I dont have to imagine it.

  76. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:08 am
    "THERE IS NO GOD... I CAN PROVE IT. "HEY GOD, IF YOURE REAL STIKE ME DEAD NOW!!!!! RIGHT NOW!! I MEAN IT!!" IM STILL HERE... NOW TO FIND THOSE UNICORNS"

    Hey Crackr and all you other Zeolots. You cant prove your god real, nothing you do will ever prove him real. But this dude just disproved it. Look, its right in front of your face. Just like you say I wouldnt be able to accept miracle, well you sheep cant accept FACT!!!
  77. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:09 am
    I can`t handle this guy`s eyebrow.
  78. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:10 am
    "I will essentially end my conversation here. Do note that I did not need to open my Bible to explain things as was asked, "

    you didnt explain anything? Nothing? Prove your god? Nope. Prove your miracles? Nope. But alas i povide proof of something that your religion says doesnt happen....NEXT!!!
  79. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:15 am
    "I intended for you to go further. I was not bringing up evolution. Think back to the "big bang": I stated the coming to being of matter itself, not matter building on matter."

    Why go back to the big bang? We are talking about god that may or may not exsist NOW. Why go back to the big bang, I dont believe it, it cannot be proven, so why go back there? What I am looking for is something write now. Right here. I dont even need to see your god, show me one or the other of the opposing army. Show me an angel, a demon, a weapon?

    You. HAVE. NOTHING!!
  80. Profile photo of Burton_Ian
    Burton_Ian Male 18-29
    815 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:23 am
    CrakrJack is close to the truth; move away from the militant atheist towards the secular humanist. While it isn`t as fun to troll, life has meaning/being beyond nihilistic self-interest. No rational being would deny that science explains HOW things work; but the metaphysical, the why, is the domain of the philosopher and theist.

    If you find no meaning in any of that, so be it. However it is foolish to wholeheartedly believe that all things are black and white, that all things must be verifiable before a truth-value can be assigned, because you will fall into the folly of the late William Clifford.

    By accepting other beings that exist, you must also accept that there is a subjective. Unless you are a solipsist, others experiences are vastly different than yours, and as you are speaking in terms of different frameworks cannot be said to be contradictory (Wittenstein).
  81. Profile photo of RyanHake
    RyanHake Male 18-29
    2690 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:26 am
    Steelgrid you might as well give up now, you`re not getting anywhere with your insults and commentary on other user`s thoughts on this at all. We get it, you`re Athiest so you think you`re the hottest poo in the pile! Nobody has proved God doesn`t exist and nobody has proved that he does. Get over yourself, you`re giving the Athiests that aren`t non-nice individuals a bad rep.
  82. Profile photo of bliznik
    bliznik Male 30-39
    836 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:28 am
    @Steelgrid - Huh? When was Alexander the Great`s body found? Did I miss one of the greatest historical findings of the 20th century?!

    Ah, sorry, I didn`t realize you were seeking proof of God and Satan. I thought you were seeking proof of Jesus. Anyhow...yeah, you`re not going to find that. Just like you`re not going to find a disproof either.

    By definition, religious Gods are intangible and work through the world in "mysterious ways" that can`t be explained or understood. How the heck could you ever prove such a thing, or disprove such a thing, within the confines of scientific evidence and thought?! That just makes no sense...

    What Sam Harris did wasn`t "disprove" the existence of God. What he did was poke holes in a strawman argument in favor of Christianity. And he poked holes in the argument that HE created very well, as he should. Good debators always create weak strawman arguments to attack.
  83. Profile photo of Scuzoid
    Scuzoid Male 30-39
    1268 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:33 am
    "CrakrJack is close to the truth;"

    "a miracle could land on your face and you wouldn`t believe."

    I`m sorry, but no. Crakr trolls just as frequently as any athiest here. I mean, really crakr? You pose this scenario on the INTERNET where the vast majority of people here can be classified as "comic book geeks." Give us Superman, and watch atheism all but disappear. Until then, it`s the most logical determination.
  84. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:35 am
    Nah Bliznik, I never said Jesus didnt exist. Never had i said that. I believe he existed and was a very charismatic phsyco that made alot of people believe that somehow he was the son of god. Never said he didnt exist.

    Religious god are intangible because a MAN wrote down that it was. The works dont have to be explained. But its not so hard to be like "HELLO EVERYBODY!!" That doesnt take science. that doesnt take religion. it takes a simple "Oh i want my creation to know they are being watched"...

    As far as alexander, i was thinking tutakamun....

    In either case, still not the same thing, A human can completely dissapear leaving no trace ecxept words. A god can show up, and put all aarguments to rest....

    So, try again
  85. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:41 am
    "Steelgrid you might as well give up now, you`re not getting anywhere with your insults and commentary on other user`s thoughts on this at all. We get it, you`re Athiest so you think you`re the hottest poo in the pile! Nobody has proved God doesn`t exist and nobody has proved that he does. Get over yourself, you`re giving the Athiests that aren`t non-nice individuals a bad rep.
    "

    Actually Ryan, you are wrong. I am not atheist. I do practice a religion. But at least i worship what I can see. At least I know the REAL history of my religion and how it started. Also, how have i implied that im the "hottest poo in the pile?"

    What because i bring points that no one has the fvucking BALLS to say out loud? That has nothing to do with, how did you put it, "Getting over myself". Its not about me.

    Funny how your pittiful little post is all you have to fall back on when you have no real point to make.
  86. Profile photo of Burton_Ian
    Burton_Ian Male 18-29
    815 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:42 am
    Alright Scuzoid, I do give you that his use of metaphor was... a bit lackluster. Nonetheless, I stand by everything else I asserted.
  87. Profile photo of bliznik
    bliznik Male 30-39
    836 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:46 am
    @Steelgrid Not sure if a God could show up and put all arguments to rest if that God gave humans free will to believe or disbelieve what they want.

    I mean, let`s say for instance you had omnipotent power and all, and created a bunch of life forms with free will. You then send somebody down with a message to love one another, perform a bunch of "miracles" that defy scientific reasoning at the time to help support your cause, and everyone who witnessed those "miracles" follows those teachings, but everyone who did not witness those "miracles" calls shenanigans. Would you want to keep going around the world you created, performing miracles, time and time again, over and over again?

    Well, if I were a God, I wouldn`t. *shrug*

    I mean, saying, "IF GOD REALLY CAN DO MIRACLES, HE WOULD SHOW UP AND DO A MIRACLE!" is just as silly as me saying, "IF YOU ARE REALLY A BILLIONAIRE, YOU WILL BUY ME A CAR." I just don`t se
  88. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:46 am
    Let me just leave one last point for you people to digest. "IF" your god, and your god being the only god exists. "IF" he was the bringer of rightiousness, dont you think he would come down, prove ONE religion and at the minimum get his creation to stop killing each other over who is right or who is wrong.

    Or your god is as evil as I know he is and enjoys the killings and sufferings of his creation while satan gives the non-believers a warm embrace when they realize the evils of god.

    Its in your bible, if you want to preach it, you better read it.
  89. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:50 am
    "I mean, saying, "IF GOD REALLY CAN DO MIRACLES, HE WOULD SHOW UP AND DO A MIRACLE!" is just as silly as me saying, "IF YOU ARE REALLY A BILLIONAIRE, YOU WILL BUY ME A CAR." I just don`t se"

    No, it isnt.. Your God is not MAN!!!! it doenst set god back 200k to buy me a lambo. Money is a digit that is finite. To showw your creations that you are real is not that hard. So no, again your point has NOTHING to do with what you are trying to prove.

    NEXT!!!
  90. Profile photo of Aints
    Aints Male 18-29
    153 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:54 am
    "You can`t prove God" "Well you can`t disprove God". We all win. But lets all throw in some big words, history, science and some magic and we have ourselves a classic debate that will last for all history (depending on what you believe). So lets all be the "rational, logical, loving humans" we are and remember that 2012 is the true end.
  91. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 11:59 am
    I think it`s funny when atheists try to prove Christianity is an oppressive religion by quoting selective passages in the Bible. First off, there are examples in the Bible of God doing something (i.e. flooding the world) and then later saying "oh poo, that was a bad idea, remember when I told you to do XYZ? Yeah, forget that".

    Secondly, and more importantly, let`s not confuse the vocal minority of Christians with the silent majority. What I mean is that for every batpoo crazy preacher saying that we need to make dancing in Bomont illegal, there are 10 more preaching that we need to get along with other religions BECAUSE they follow a different path to God.

    For the vast majority of western religious leaders, including and especially the much demonised Christian faiths, there is a rapidly growing emphasis on interpreting the Bible in a way that reflects the world we live in. The Bible is a set of stories that tells us how we can come to understand God, not
  92. Profile photo of osteenq
    osteenq Male 40-49
    65 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:00 pm
    Every religious person alive today is already an atheist when it comes to the thousands of gods that came before theirs. They just can`t come to grips with the fact that there`s no difference between their deity and an Aphrodite or a Humbaba.
  93. Profile photo of morimacil123
    morimacil123 Male 18-29
    171 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:03 pm
    His argument doesnt shake my faith.
    He says that there is no reason to believe one book over another, the coran over the bible, and so on. Well that is just plain wrong.
    There are plenty of reasons for me to believe in my god rather than others. For one, he is tasty. Second, pirates are cool. And third, any evidence which disproves his existence has clearly been manipulated by his noodly appendage.
    Also, my god has bigger balls than yours. Meatballs that is.

    So thats why this argument doesnt shake my faith at all in the flying sphagetti monster.
  94. Profile photo of TommyG232
    TommyG232 Male 13-17
    18 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:06 pm
    -The idea that people go to hell if they sin has no textual basis in the Christian Gospels. The idea of hell was made up by people hundreds of years after Christ died.
    -Jesus does refers to a "kingdom of god" describe it as the heaven many people see in movies.
    -Instead, his kingdom is really a Way Of Life,
    in which everyone understands that all human beings across the world and across cultures are family, and should be treated as such.

    -The Christian God is a god of absolute forgiveness and mercy. Jesus gave us the message that had nothing to fear anymore. Judaism at his time had perverted the Jewish tradition by making about simply the letter of the law instead of the message.
    -This perversion also took place in the Christian churches by the idea of a hell to keep people scared.

    -Jesus would have never believed anything that this man said about people being punished for not believing. For Jesus, it doesn`t matter if you know who he is,
  95. Profile photo of morimacil123
    morimacil123 Male 18-29
    171 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:06 pm
    "You can`t prove God"

    Actually, you can prove that the flying sphagetti monster exists, but its just that everytime you do the experiment, he will meddle with the results so that they are inconclusive with his noodly appendage.
  96. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:06 pm
    Furthermore, many Christians (Canada has loads of examples) are inviting Jews, Muslims and atheists to engage in discussion so we can learn from other belief systems ways in which we are similar, and how we can improve the religion.

    The whole point of religion is that it is relevant to our daily lives. We openly condemn events in our history where people have killed in the name of God as a horrible misinterpretation of religious teachings. Christian ministers openly preach that it is wrong to discriminate against people on the basis of religion and sexuality. In Canada, we not only have same sex marriages in the church, but we have gay ministers performing them.

    I think it`s funny when atheists pick and choose only the negative things that have been done by Christians and staunchly refuse to accept any positive things. They decry us as oppressive, but when we recognise it and try to change our practices, they tell us we`re not truly following our faith.
  97. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:13 pm
    "You can`t prove God exists"

    That`s the whole point. You can`t prove it scientifically (yet). It`s just something you know. For example when talking about his experience in space, astronaut and scientist John Glenn said "To look out at this kind of creation and not believe in God is to me impossible".

    Christianity, like every other religion is two things. An attempt to understand how to find God; and in light of the fact that there is a God, a way to understand what that implies for our day-to-day lives.

  98. Profile photo of Steelgrid
    Steelgrid Male 30-39
    2700 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:14 pm
    "the coran over the bible"

    Quran
  99. Profile photo of morimacil123
    morimacil123 Male 18-29
    171 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:18 pm
    "The Christian God is a god of absolute forgiveness and mercy. Jesus gave us the message that had nothing to fear anymore. "
    No. In some parts of the bible (mostly the new testament), he is described as a forgiving god.
    In pretty much the whole of the old testament though, he is not even close to forgiving and/or mercifull.

    "-The idea that people go to hell if they sin has no textual basis in the Christian Gospels."
    Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Revelations 20:12 And I saw the dead stand before God; and the books were opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life
  100. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:28 pm
    @morimacil123

    You need to recognize that the "Old Testament" was written chronologically before the "New Testament" by a few hundred years. Also, it`s by and large Hebrew (read: Jewish) tradition. The gospels are written by this little obscure sect of Judaism called Christians that believe the teachings of God have changed from the vengeful past. Christianity is built on the New Testament God of forgiveness. Also, the Revelation of St. John the Divine is an opium inspired prophetic vision, not the word of God.

    This is what I was talking about when I said that I think it`s funny when people try to prove Christianity is wrong by using misinterpretation of individual passages. There is so much context surrounding the Bible that you need to understand it. That`s what a minister is for. The Bible is filled with metaphor and parables steeped in the daily realities of life thousands of years ago. Christians have, shockingly changed since then.
  101. Profile photo of morimacil123
    morimacil123 Male 18-29
    171 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:30 pm

    At this point, most of us are completely dumbfounded.
    We can understand that you believe in something because a book told you so.
    But if you dont actually believe everything the book says, and are able to use critical thinking skills on parts of the book... Then why do you believe in any part of the book at all?
    If you are able to use critical thinking on the parts of the book that say you should stone gays, and girls who have sex before mariage, and have slaves, and so on, why cant you use that critical thinking on the other parts of the book?
    Furthermore, shouldnt the simple fact that the book is wrong about some things shake your belief in the book as a whole about being written by some omnipotent all knowing god?

    Blind faith in something because its in a book, we dont agree with, but we can understand. Critical thinking on parts of the book you dont agree with, and blind faith in the rest? That just appears like hypocrisy to us.
  102. Profile photo of morimacil123
    morimacil123 Male 18-29
    171 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:30 pm
    "I think it`s funny when atheists pick and choose only the negative things that have been done by Christians and staunchly refuse to accept any positive things. They decry us as oppressive, but when we recognise it and try to change our practices, they tell us we`re not truly following our faith."

    Well yeah, its because its really hard to understand for someone with no faith.
    Its already pretty hard for us to put ourselves in your shoes, and accept that you believe something that incredible just because a book written thousands of years ago tells you so.

    But then once you accept that this book is flawed, that its wrong to promote hatred of gays, that its wrong to promote slavery and sexism, and so on...

  103. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:30 pm
    "First off, there are examples in the Bible of God doing something (i.e. flooding the world) and then later saying "oh poo, that was a bad idea, remember when I told you to do XYZ? Yeah, forget that". "

    So... admitting that your god isn`t omniscient?
  104. Profile photo of morimacil123
    morimacil123 Male 18-29
    171 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:35 pm
    "believe the teachings of God have changed from the vengeful past. "
    Why would god change if he was all knowing, omnipresent and omnipotent in the first place?

    God suddenly realizing his mistakes and deciding to change and improve himself doesnt really seem very omnipotent to me.


    "Also, the Revelation of St. John the Divine is an opium inspired prophetic vision, not the word of God. "
    Dont you this vision of things somewhat strange?
    That one passage written in a thousand year old book is the ravings of a lunatic, but the others, in the exact same book, that also talk about things just as crazy and impossible to prove, those are totally legit?
  105. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:38 pm
    Omniscient and infallible are not the same thing.

    Genesis 8:21 (God is talking to Noah about the flood)
    "and the lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man`s sake... neither will I again smite any more every thing living as I have done".

    One of the first stories in the Bible after God is done creating the world is Noah`s Ark in which God floods the world, kills everything and realises after the fact that this, perhaps, was a mistake. God himself makes it pretty damn clear right in the beginning that he`s not infallible, but then of course neither are people.

    We`re willing to accept that God isn`t perfect, God is willing to accept that he`s not perfect. It seems to be the atheists who aren`t willing to let it go that Christians aren`t perfect.
  106. Profile photo of morimacil123
    morimacil123 Male 18-29
    171 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:43 pm
    "Omniscient and infallible are not the same thing. "
    By definition, if you are omniscient, you know everything.
    Thus if you were about to flood the world, and you were omniscient, you would know whether or not it is a mistake before doing it.
    You would know that you would later regret doing it. So you could just avoid doing it in the first place.

  107. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:53 pm
    Again, it`s funny to me that you`re trying to use the Bible out of context to prove that God doesn`t exist.

    I`ll say this again, the text of the Bible was written by men. The choice of which writings to include and exclude was made by men. Both of these things were done in terms of what was socially and politically relevant a thousand years ago.

    The inclusion of Revelation doesn`t complicate the rest of the Bible to me at all. It was chosen at the time as a great way to provide some teleology and some incentive (fire and brimstone) for non-Christians 1000 years ago to convert. This was done at a time before the feeble, fallible humans realized that tolerance and acceptance of others was kind of an important thing.

    Looking forward, a great deal of the current Christian discussion is how to reconcile this historical reality with our modern sensibilities. What some guys decided was "The Bible" 1000 years ago that perhaps isn`t relevent today in no
  108. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 12:54 pm
    in no way shakes my belief in God. It only confirms to me that people are infallible and perhaps a set of guidelines helping us learn how we can be better people is maybe a good thing.
  109. Profile photo of Justahuman
    Justahuman Male 18-29
    109 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:02 pm
    I am Christian,and this does not shake my beliefs on bit...if you think this would then thats just sad, it only makes my faith that much stronger.He thinks god has to do something to save non belivers?!?!? read the bible he already did!!! hes waiting for you to put down your pride and accept what he has already given.Is it harder to be christian and adopt a strict moral code and devote your life to something greater than yourself?or to believe in the world and be like the world,making fun of and trying desperately to disprove something that shouldn`t even bother you?
    have a problem with the bible? then read it with your heart and soul weigh the differences make your own decisions,don`t listen to people like this guy.Think for yourself.
  110. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:08 pm
    Here`s the last thing I`ll leave behind for this discussion. I can absolutely understand why people wouldn`t believe in God. It makes perfect sense to me that you accept the many arguments that there is no God. There`s nothing wrong with not believing and I have never tried to convince anybody that there IS a God because I don`t have that proof. If you can`t believe, that`s fine with me and I don`t think less of you for it. I won`t try and convince you otherwise, but I will always argue that my belief does not in-and-of-itself make me an ignorant person.

    What I don`t understand, is why so many atheists (not all) can`t accept that there are people who believe. I also don`t understand why so many atheists think it is their personal duty to show believers why their faith is wrong. You can`t change somebody`s belief, but you can accept that theirs is different than yours. If I`m not supposed to force you to follow my belief, you shouldn`t force me to follow yours.
  111. Profile photo of Rick_S
    Rick_S Male 40-49
    3281 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:08 pm
    "I`ll say this again, the text of the Bible was written by men. The choice of which writings to include and exclude was made by men. Both of these things were done in terms of what was socially and politically relevant a thousand years ago."

    This is not what I was taught. I was taught that the Bible represents the Word of God, and was written by God, using the hand of Man.

    I`ve often asked, "What makes you so sure you`re right, and everyone else is wrong." You can`t say, "Because the Bible tells me so," because Jews can say, "The torah tells me so," and Muslims can say "The Qur`an tells me so," and Buddhist`s have their book, and Hindus have theirs and so on and so on.

    To tell me I`m wrong because your book tells you I`m wrong is so beyond ridiculous, because there are many, many more books than yours that say YOU`RE wrong.
  112. Profile photo of Rick_S
    Rick_S Male 40-49
    3281 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:10 pm
    "I will always argue that my belief does not in-and-of-itself make me an ignorant person."

    Depends on the beliefs in question.

    "What I don`t understand, is why so many atheists (not all) can`t accept that there are people who believe. I also don`t understand why so many atheists think it is their personal duty to show believers why their faith is wrong."

    Same reason there are Christians that feel it`s their personal duty to show non-believers their lack of faith is wrong. People like to be right--it makes them feel good about themselves.
  113. Profile photo of number1man
    number1man Male 13-17
    240 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:11 pm
    and Boom goes the dynamite. this is exactly how i feel
  114. Profile photo of PirateWillis
    PirateWillis Male 18-29
    143 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:17 pm
    I still don`t understand how this makes atheism appealing. Think of it like gambling in this case. Ok, one religion is right, which one is it? No one knows for sure, but if you choose not to believe you go to hell. If you believe in one, you might be right you might be wrong. But there is a possibility of being right. I`ll take my chances on religion, and keep to myself, while i hope everyone else keeps to themselves.
  115. Profile photo of Turducken
    Turducken Male 18-29
    62 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:19 pm
    *sees title* oh man there`s gonna be paragraphs. *scrolls down* yup...
  116. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:26 pm
    During university, the friends I spent every day with consisted of myself (an Anglican), a Roman Catholic, a Jew, a Muslim, a Jehovah`s Witness and several atheists. This was a wonderful experience and we would often speak about our beliefs because let`s face it, how often do you get that many people of differing beliefs all getting along. Mostly, we were interested in how each other`s belief system worked and why we were all so accepting of each other.

    What we discovered is that regardless of our faiths, we had all learned through our belief system that each person needs to find their own understanding of a universal "truth" that affected how we live our lives. For all of us, it boiled down to how to live good lives. Some understood this through God, others through personal moral codes. What was important to all of us was that we were able to recognize that we were all looking for the same thing, just following different books and practices to get there.
  117. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:29 pm
    The moral of the story is that I wish the internet was just as understanding as my friends were.
  118. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:38 pm
    "What I don`t understand, is why so many atheists (not all) can`t accept that there are people who believe. I also don`t understand why so many atheists think it is their personal duty to show believers why their faith is wrong."

    I don`t really care if people believe in a god. I feel they`re wasting their time, but people waste their time in many ways. It just so happens that believing in a god often comes with more beliefs and people who hold those beliefs try to push those beliefs on others. When religious people stop trying to use their religion to justify laws then I`ll truly stop caring.

    As for the 2nd part. Have you ever been in a public place and had someone preach at you? People of nearly any faith do that kind of crap. Why should atheists be quiet when religious people aren`t? We don`t want to hear religious bullpoo all day just like you don`t want to hear that there is no god.
  119. Profile photo of SapphireHart
    SapphireHart Female 18-29
    412 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:41 pm
    In answer to the above question...no.
  120. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:41 pm
    Actually, I can honestly say that I`ve never been in a public place and had anybody preach at me aside from atheists. And seriously, we don`t all try to force out beliefs on people. Again, there are gay ministers in the Christian church performing gay marriages. They don`t get media coverage though because a tolerant Christian preaching that we all get along doesn`t sell newspapers or boost tv ratings nearly as much as an extremist who says stupid, ignorant things.

    The media would like you to believe that all religious people are crazy nutjobs, but the truth is that this is not the case.
  121. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:44 pm
    Oh, and again, most of us don`t care if you think there`s no God. We`d just like you to respect our right to believe there is.
  122. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:44 pm
    "Think of it like gambling in this case. Ok, one religion is right, which one is it? No one knows for sure, but if you choose not to believe you go to hell. If you believe in one, you might be right you might be wrong. But there is a possibility of being right. I`ll take my chances on religion, and keep to myself, while i hope everyone else keeps to themselves."

    But how can you choose when every religion seems wrong to you? Just choose one and pretend to believe it anyway? I think any god would see through such a lie. I`m an atheist but I actually have a religion . There`s no god and no hell for people who don`t believe. I followed the teachings before I even classified myself as a Buddhist, and I became one because it`s nice to know like-minded people. I don`t believe anything bad will happen to me if I decide to stop considering myself a Buddhist in the future. I don`t think anyone`s wrong for not choosing any religion.
  123. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:47 pm
    "Actually, I can honestly say that I`ve never been in a public place and had anybody preach at me aside from atheists."
    Not even on a college campus? Man you`re lucky. We get tons and tons of people from all religions spouting their nonsense and handing out mini-holy books (which I promptly recycle or throw in the garbage if I can`t avoid being handed one). I`ve only ever seen one atheist do it, and they were just standing peacefully to the side, not shouting anything, holding up a sign. I consider that more than fair.
  124. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:47 pm
    "And seriously, we don`t all try to force out beliefs on people."
    Not all, sure. But a large amount of people do. That`s why the majority of the US doesn`t allow gay marriage, for example.
  125. Profile photo of elhowell
    elhowell Male 18-29
    168 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:51 pm
    Right Eyebrow. Is he doing that on purpose?
  126. Profile photo of SarahofBorg
    SarahofBorg Female 18-29
    3564 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:56 pm
    So Pirate, you`d rather take a gamble and randomly pick one religion out of thousands rather than disregard all of them? How do you make that decision? How do you decide one religion is more likely to be correct than another? They`re all the damn same. All religions consist of at least one guy saying he knows for sure how the universe works and everyone else who doesn`t believe him is wrong and will suffer as a result. And if you do follow and believe that guy, than you will suffer less than everyone else because you`re both right. Or you`re both wrong and will suffer just the same.
  127. Profile photo of SarahofBorg
    SarahofBorg Female 18-29
    3564 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 1:59 pm
    Oh and I don`t care how nice can civil you are, if you choose to believe in a religion you choose to believe you are superior to everyone else who doesn`t follow your beliefs. In the very least, you choose to believe that everyone who doesn`t agree with you will suffer unless they change and become like you. You know better than they do because you know what`s right and they don`t. God, Allah, Jesus, etc told you what`s right and what`s wrong. You couldn`t have figured it out yourself, after all. How could anybody know right and wrong if they don`t have faith? That`s what you choose to believe.
  128. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 2:04 pm
    Even in the 17th century in Dante`s "Divine Comedy" which is clearly steeped in religion, he clearly is struggling with the fact that non-Christians for some reason don`t go to hell. In his depiction of hell, non-Christians who were devout in their other beliefs and led good lives because of it are technically in hell, but they do not suffer and are not punished because they were able to find peace and kindness in their own ways.

    I think you`ll find that as Christianity is progressing and evolving, we are as a whole becoming more accepting of people even if we think their views are wrong. One of the prayers in the Anglican Church includes a line that "God is steadfast in love and infinite in mercy, he invites sinners to his table". This, to those of us who are forward thinking absolutely means that God is not going to punish you for not picking the "right" religion. There are still people too set in their ways to change, but things are steadily
  129. Profile photo of Loxen
    Loxen Female 30-39
    1387 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 2:08 pm
    I lack the ability to be religious. Believe me, I`ve tried. I actually like the mythology, and its very intriguing, so its not that I "hate" anything on principal. I grew up around religion so it wasn`t alien to me.
    I`ve tried "talking to God" "opening my heart", "looking for signs" etc etc. All I got? Silence. NOTHING. No vibes, no glow, no spirit food.
    Nothing is there. I am incapable of putting faith in a void of nothing. My brain just won`t do it. There is no choice involved. So if God exists, why would he make me this way?
    There is no choice. There is no option. I`m not deciding not to believe. I TRIED to.

    If God made me, then he automatically condemned me at conception by making my brain this way. How is is that fair, and how could I even worship such a deity (if he exists), if he does messed up things like that?
  130. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 2:17 pm
    @Loxen

    "God is all things to all people". My interpretation of this line is that God provides each individual with what they need to live thier life. This is different for everyone and I would argue is the basis upon which we can accept multiple understandings of the world.

    If there is a God and you tried to believe in him but simply couldn`t, all that means is that what you need isn`t faith in a divine being. You are going to find the understanding you need in your life through some other means.

    Does this mean that you`re going to hell? Absolutely not! It just means that some extremists might not like you. Most believers are not radicals and quite frankly, while I believe in God, my God won`t send you to hell for not believing, nor does he get upset that I drink coffee during the service. All that matters to my God is that you live a good life in whatever way is best for you.
  131. Profile photo of snakecharmer
    snakecharmer Male 18-29
    321 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 3:20 pm
    Eh, heard that argument so many times before. Just a bunch of what ifs. Nothing will ever shake my faith. It seems like there should be something else more interesting to waste my time with.
  132. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 3:37 pm
    God is what you need him to be.

    The "good book" says what you need it to say.

    Leave people alone and be spiritual anyway you want.

    That means no flying into buildings, no suicide bombers, no protesting funerals... etc etc etc...
  133. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 3:46 pm
    Or, as Stephen Roberts summed it up:

    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  134. Profile photo of Edgarska19
    Edgarska19 Male 18-29
    1045 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 4:40 pm
    @davymid
    or like Dr. House said:
    "If you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people."
  135. Profile photo of nogroupthink
    nogroupthink Male 30-39
    45 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 4:46 pm
    holy jesus 135 comments
  136. Profile photo of bliznik
    bliznik Male 30-39
    836 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 4:46 pm
    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"

    I def understand that quote and agree with that sentiment. Everyone has the free will to choose what they want to believe in and what they do not want to believe in.

    The reason, I think, this forum has so many comments and responses is because of the straw-man argument. An atheist saying, "All Christians believe in X, and let me tell you why X is wrong." But X is only what the atheist THINKS all Christians believe in, and then the atheist attacks that straw man argument with a fervor and a fury.

    Christianity and Christians have enough genuine flaws to attack without angry atheists needing to create straw-man arguments to make themselves feel superior to believers.
  137. Profile photo of nogroupthink
    nogroupthink Male 30-39
    45 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 4:48 pm
    Both sides are intolerant.
  138. Profile photo of CoyoteKing
    CoyoteKing Male 18-29
    2988 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 5:53 pm
    No one ever converted because they lost the argument.
  139. Profile photo of Kilgore89
    Kilgore89 Male 18-29
    194 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 5:55 pm
    @bliznik

    Thank you! You understand! I would like to add that even within Christianity we argue about beliefs. I`m not even talking about between different denominations, I mean that the old people and young people at my church don`t agree on a lot of things. Rest assured though, we`re working it out and although some people hold some pretty antiquated, offensive beliefs, we`re working it out and getting a lot more tolerant as a whole.
  140. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 6:49 pm
    Oh, and again, most of us don`t care if you think there`s no God.
    You should. Jesus instructs you to go forth and make disciples of all men. Matthew 28:19.
  141. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 7:08 pm
    What I don`t understand, is why so many atheists (not all) can`t accept that there are people who believe.

    It`s such a bizarre thing that it is difficult to accept. I know otherwise rational people who flush their reason down the loo to believe an apparently randomly selected self-contradicting bronze age superstition for no reason whatsoever and in the face of all evidence.

    If someone you knew, who was otherwise completely sane, was convinced that light in lightbulbs was made by the tiny pixies living in them *and shaped their whole life around things that other people told them the pixies said*, would you accept that as something that was fine and never needed commenting on?

    Or would you think they were mad?
  142. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 7:08 pm

    I also don`t understand why so many atheists think it is their personal duty to show believers why their faith is wrong.

    It`s not that many, not as a proportion of the number of atheists.

    But bear in mind my last post - if someone you knew was that mad, might you not try to do something?

    Also, there`s the fact that religion is bloody dangerous. Firstly because faith is inherently incompatible with rationality and secondly because almost all (all?) religions involve striving to obtain more power and that affects everyone, not just the believers in that religion. It`s no coincidence that the worst offenders in that respect are Christianity and Islam - they`ve obtained (and abused) obscene amounts of power because they were created to do so.
  143. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 7:45 pm
    Angilion: It`s not madness to have hope, faith, and morality.

    In fact, a person without hope, faith or morality is usually called a psychopath.
  144. Profile photo of defendors87
    defendors87 Male 18-29
    570 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 7:45 pm
    Oh man. If only there was a place between death and judgement where men wait for the millenium and judgement. A place where they can learn and repent and still accept the gospel or choose to reject it. If only a place like this existed...
  145. Profile photo of Bogster
    Bogster Male 40-49
    5 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:12 pm
    Missionaries are something of an oxymoron. They go to a place where the people have never heard of their god, introduce fear, guilt, self-doubt and shame and then offer their god as a solution to the problems they just created. This is really little more than emotional terrorism, not saving people.
  146. Profile photo of Stand4Christ
    Stand4Christ Male 18-29
    35 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:27 pm
    The argument is, unfortunately, based on misconceptions provided by Christians to the world, and based on those misconceptions, his argument is good. However, if those misconceptions are removed, the comparison to Islam is also removed, and the argument is no longer valid. I cannot begin to remove or contest those misconceptions here in this post, and currently do not have time to set up a web site to do so. Instead, I will point those curious in the proper direction. Please begin by reading Romans in the Bible, and pay special attention to Chapter 2. Second, move on to Hebrew, where you will find that faith is an integral part of Christianity, which goes to explain (in a very small part) why God will not simply make everyone believe. Third, to get a proper view of what Jesus is talking about, read the book Rediscovering the Kingdom, but Myles Munroe.
  147. Profile photo of Discobiscuit
    Discobiscuit Male 18-29
    542 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 8:29 pm
    Atheists, give me a brief summary of your manifesto. Why are you pushing this? If one is reasonably intelligent and has spirituality, then it`s safe to assume he is not bigoted and uses his/her faith for moral grounds. If one is straight up retarded and is a believer, this will only rile him/her up in denial and only serve to cause conflict.
    You want entertainment? Send this to all your creationist acquaintances. Meanwhile, I`m still bored.
  148. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:25 pm
    "In fact, a person without hope, faith or morality is usually called a psychopath."

    If you add faith back in, you still have a psychopath.
    If you add hope back in, you still have a psychopath.
    Morality is subjective, and whilst psychopaths are generally immoral, they are not necessarily Amoral, which is what you`re suggesting.



    You fundamentally don`t know what words mean. A psychopath`s main caveat is a lack of empathy. You add in Empathy, you don`t have a psychopath.
  149. Profile photo of Scuzoid
    Scuzoid Male 30-39
    1268 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:26 pm
    "You want entertainment?"

    Entertainment is clearly a motive for some, but it`s far from the only reason theist and atheist debate exists. I for one don`t find it remotely amusing when people talk about how much they love their god, I`m curious as I can not grasp the reasoning behind why a believer (Who may have been raised as such) comes into adulthood and chooses to make such an uneducated decision.

    Again, I assure you if Superman showed up and blew away a tsunami, the smartest thing I could do with my life is accept the fact that this is clearly divine intervention. But that doesn`t happen, so why exactly would someone choose to gospel about something that, essentially, doesn`t exist on our plane.

    I`m sure the evil version of me in an alternate dimension with a goatee is a dick, but I don`t really strive to be the exact opposite of him based on my KNOWLEDGE he "exists"
  150. Profile photo of snack1928
    snack1928 Male 18-29
    35 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:29 pm
    I wish people who want to bash Christianity would at least read the Bible, and study it, more than find a verse, take it out of context, and attempt to use that verse as a way to say the Bible is wrong, contradicts itself, etc...
    Also, @Discobiscuit, don`t be so narrow-minded. Your post implies that anyone who is a "believer" (believer in what? You`re a believer in something. Specify next time) is retarded. I`ll assume by "believer" you mean a religious person, and by that definition, you are calling the majority of the world retarded. Just think about that...
    I recommend, for anyone who wants to read up on Christianity, to read "Jesus Freaks" by dc talk, a band. It has true accounts of miracles that have happened to real people. So, the evidence is out there, one must look for it and not just dismiss it as religious babble or lies.
  151. Profile photo of Scuzoid
    Scuzoid Male 30-39
    1268 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:36 pm
    You have completely failed to grasp simple english when reading Disco`s post, Snack. From appearances, I`d say Disco is probably Mormon, but in either case, he said "Smart people of faith are nice people who don`t think they`re any better than anyone else. Dumb people will be dumb."
  152. Profile photo of NOCASH
    NOCASH Male 18-29
    423 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 9:41 pm
    Discobiscuit, the point as I understand it to be is that both religions or most any religions perceive themselves to be correct and others to be incorrect or fake. This doesnt bode well for religions in general since they usually just disagree with eachother all the time. kinda childish imo, but thats just me.
  153. Profile photo of OutWest
    OutWest Male 50-59
    546 posts
    November 17, 2011 at 10:05 pm
    Please be careful of those indoctrinating religions.

    Instead let us indoctrinate you to have a better life by thinking as we do.

    Of course when you are sheep, you believe everyone is a sheep too!

  154. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 12:08 am
    Atheists, give me a brief summary of your manifesto.
    Top Tip: there isn`t one. It`s kinda the point.
  155. Profile photo of morimacil123
    morimacil123 Male 18-29
    171 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 12:44 am
    "Please be careful of those indoctrinating religions. "
    Why do religious people always seem to take it the wrong way when you say religion indoctrinates people?
    Doctrine (Latin: doctrina) is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system. The Greek analogy is the etymology of catechism.
    Often doctrine specifically connotes a corpus of religious dogma as it is promulgated by a church, but not necessarily.


    If you are being taught something, by definition, you are being indoctrinated.
    It doesnt have to have a negative conotation.
    Yes, you are being told what to think, you are being indoctrinated by the bible. You accept that when you accept religion.

    No need to rage out at people because they use the proper words, and you misunderstand the meaning.
  156. Profile photo of Nageki
    Nageki Male 30-39
    110 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 12:48 am
    The thing is snack1928, most Christians don`t read the bible. Plus they don`t know it`s history, when it was actually put together (from many other "books", why do you think they call it the book of Genesis, etc.?) And the majority of those that do are either pastors (pretty much in their job description) or people who read verses to take them out of context. Ask them to back up their views about what the bible says and they`ll quote someone else/a verse out of context and don`t actually know what the bible is saying. PS, the bible was put together by a bunch of guys who wanted to be able to control what the bible told their flock (nice sheep reference huh?). These guys didn`t really have other`s well being in mind, they had their own agenda in mind. How is that "divine inspiration"? The bible DOES contradict itself many times, read it and you`ll see. A lot of those "miracles" that come about are misinterpreted happenstance occurrences and / or som
  157. Profile photo of Nageki
    Nageki Male 30-39
    110 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 12:50 am
    (continued)
    and / or someone`s mind healing themselves because they believe. It`s not that it was "god" that did it. It was the power of the mind.

    @edgarska19
    I totally agree with your quote. Just wish my words would reach someone and make them question something that needs questioning.
  158. Profile photo of robosnitz
    robosnitz Male 40-49
    2737 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 3:15 am
    Real men worship ZEUS !
  159. Profile photo of Samsquanch
    Samsquanch Male 30-39
    792 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 4:48 am
    Die-hard atheists are just as bad as die-hard Christians.
    Atheists...you feel that in order to know and understand something, you have to have proof of it.
    How do you know the earth is round? Is it because someone told you it was round? Because you saw pictures someone else took showing it was round? Don`t you know that people lie, and pictures can be doctored?
    I`m not saying I believe the world to be flat...I`m just saying to think about your own beliefs before you judge someone else`s.
  160. Profile photo of TkA
    TkA Male 30-39
    115 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 4:53 am
    It`s too bad the whole lecture was based on a false premise, it goes to show how prejudice can really skew someone`s understanding of something. But to his end point: imagine if someone comes up to you and says that someone you`ve actually met isn`t real, but a figment of your imagination. How silly would that seem? Quite, i imagine. Now you can see the flip side, because God is real, and someday each and every one of us will all know that!
  161. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 6:06 am
    Samsquanch: If I so desired I could test the spherical nature of the earth using math and science. I can definitively find out the truth on my own without having to resort to second-hand knowledge. Not so with religion.
  162. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 6:12 am
    TkA: If you`re implying you`ve ACTUALLY met God then I think there are some people with big hats that would like to hear about it. Faith by its own nature is a belief in the absurd.
  163. Profile photo of Cubmaster938
    Cubmaster938 Male 40-49
    8 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 7:01 am
    I actually don`t see this as a strong case for atheism, but I think it presents a very valid argument against the exclusionary nature of many religions. The issue is not "Does God Exist" but "How should we consider a "God" -- A "First Cause" -- call it what you will -- that by any realistic definition we can never understand? Any "God" that we can conceive of in our minds -- that we can capture within our thoughts -- is not worthy of the term "God."

    Whenever I ask people to describe the God in which they do not belive, I inevitably agree with them that I don`t believe in that God either.

    Rather than argue over what we believe, and rather than trying to convince someone else they are wrong, whether Jesus is the Son of God or just an itinerant Jewish healer, can`t we all agree that we should do a better job of taking care of each other? Showing some compassion?
  164. Profile photo of EgalM
    EgalM Male 30-39
    1707 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 7:34 am
    FFS, this crap again.

    If we didn`t believe the things we saw thousands of years ago at the time, than why would we now. We have been given enough signs, there comes a point when enough is enough. Jesus was the last thing we got and are going to get from God.

    As for Muslims, they believe in a false prophet, who ripped off the old testament hundreds of years after it was written. If one thing a prophet claims of God is proven false, than by God`s own words, they are false. This is an easy way to discount many religions including several Christian ones.

    Yeah, yeah, I`m wrong, stupid, whatever, heard it all, don`t get mad at me for being honest. There is a lot of nonsense in the world to sort through, if you don`t take the time to think for yourself you will be fooled every time.
  165. Profile photo of schecter4
    schecter4 Male 18-29
    31 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 7:40 am
    Wow... that isn`t for atheism at all.

    Its for a pluralistic ideology. He`s basically showing how depressing things are if you look at something from a religious exclusivist point of view.

    Can we stop having the "atheist vs. christain" crap? It gets old. There is no wrong or right. I`m a nontheist, but that doesn`t mean I don`t have room in my life for someone who is a devout hindu, daoist, muslim, ect.

    Get over it. Do what you feel you need to do to be the best person you can ben, and stop all the petty bickering. Instead of proving you`re right, you typically just prove your own ignorance.
  166. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 8:26 am
    Atheists...you feel that in order to know and understand something, you have to have proof of it.
    How do you know the earth is round?

    Maths.
    It was proven by the Ancient Greeks using not-particularly-complicated maths and astronomy that the Earth was spherical (although we now know it isn`t quite a perfect sphere). They even calculated its circumference with surprising accuracy. The guy`s name was Eratosthenes.

    What else would you like proof of?
  167. Profile photo of mcboozerilla
    mcboozerilla Male 30-39
    646 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 8:31 am
    It`s always the same old, tired and simplistic arguments. But the truth is attested to by the witnesses, and they were many, and they traveled throughout the Roman Empire and beyond its borders living in poverty and knowing suffering, and even torture and death, to share the teachings and life of Christ which they witnessed.
  168. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 8:36 am
    CrakrJak: all of these people had faith and hope, and were all psychopaths.


    Deanna Laney

    Marie Moore
    Blair Donnelly
    Terry Mark Magnum
  • Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 8:38 am
    Hmm. Sorry Mcboozerilla, my post swallowed yours.

    Anyway you get the idea. Plenty of psychopaths have hope and faith. In fact their faith seems to often be the trigger of their madness.
  • Profile photo of mcboozerilla
    mcboozerilla Male 30-39
    646 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 8:54 am
    Yes, bob, things go wrong sometimes.
  • Profile photo of artmunki
    artmunki Male 30-39
    176 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 2:07 pm
    For theists of all denominations, this will never be a persuasive argument, for the fundamental reason that *not* being persuaded by rational argument is a core tenet of religious dogma. All religious texts teach that any arguments against the teachings of the faith are attempts by the unholy to lead believers away from the path of true light, so they`ll go to ridiculous lengths to refute, disparage or plain ignore anything which might genuinely make them question whichever faith they happen to follow. Religion relies on this to keep followers, which is why they encourage people to let their faith do their thinking for them.
  • Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 5:33 pm
    Angilion: It`s not madness to have hope, faith, and morality.

    In fact, a person without hope, faith or morality is usually called a psychopath.

    Only by theists desperate to smear atheists, so desperate that they make up new definitions for existing words.

    Your religion doesn`t seem mad to you. The religion of magic pixies living in light bulbs wouldn`t seem mad to a believer in it. There aren`t any significant differences between the two and neither have anything to do with hope or morality. As for faith...why is it a good thing to decide to think that something is true without any reason to do so? More importantly, why is it only a good thing to you when it`s the quite randomly chosen things you believe to be true without any reason to do so? Why is it not equally good to believe in the magic lightbulb-dwelling pixies?
  • Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 5:37 pm
    Atheists, give me a brief summary of your manifesto.

    If you`re asking a rhetorical question in order to make a point, I think you need to clarify what the point is.

    If you think that`s a meaningful question in itself, one that can have an answer, then you`ve merely proved that you have no understanding of what atheism is. It`s not a religion. It`s not a political ideology. It`s not anything. How on earth could it have a manifesto? The question is nonsense.
  • Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 5:49 pm
    Atheists...you feel that in order to know and understand something, you have to have proof of it.

    No, atheists simply don`t have faith in the existence of gods. That`s it. It doesn`t mean anything else.

    Most atheists are *also* agnostic, which is closer to what you describe but still fundamentally different. Agnosticism is essentially the idea that you shouldn`t take something as objectively true unless you can objectively prove it. You can still judge things to be probably true, with varying degrees of certainty dependent on the strength of the evidence. Strictly speaking only maths can be objectively proven and then only without any connection to the real world, but many things have such overwhelming evidence that you can reasonably treat them as true unless dramatic new evidence is uncovered to disprove them. The germ theory of disease is a good example of that.
  • Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 18, 2011 at 5:53 pm

    How do you know the earth is round? Is it because someone told you it was round? Because you saw pictures someone else took showing it was round? Don`t you know that people lie, and pictures can be doctored?

    A particularly bad example. Not only is there overwhelming evidence that the world is round, but anyone with minimal knowledge can confirm it by doing the same experiments that ancient Greek philosophers used to confirm it`s round (which was known before then, but not so elegantly confirmed).

    Granted, those experiments won`t be accurate enough to show that the Earth is a slightly flattened sphere rather a perfect sphere, but they will show that it`s round.

    I`m not saying I believe the world to be flat...I`m just saying to think about your own beliefs before you judge someone else`s.

    I don`t have beliefs.
  • Profile photo of FascismYeah
    FascismYeah Male 18-29
    40 posts
    November 19, 2011 at 10:38 am
    "Atheists, give me a brief summary of your manifesto."

    No gods.
  • Profile photo of NOCASH
    NOCASH Male 18-29
    423 posts
    November 19, 2011 at 2:12 pm
    All the "what do you athiests believe in" comments are stupid. I dont like to put the label "atheist" on myself, I dont believe in religions, any of them to be precise not even atheism. I like to think of myself as a person who uses logic and factual information to educate myself. I also wish we woke up one day and everyone forgot that they were religious, better word in one day.
  • Profile photo of NOCASH
    NOCASH Male 18-29
    423 posts
    November 19, 2011 at 2:13 pm
    Sorry for the double post but i meant better *world.
  • Profile photo of Catharsis1
    Catharsis1 Male 18-29
    3 posts
    November 19, 2011 at 11:26 pm
    "Does this thinking shake your belief?"

    No. It is true that the New Testament states that Jesus prefers us to have faith only. However, there is enough Historical and scholarly evidence to prove the existence of God. Those of you who are interested in what I have to say, please read all of my sources fully before commenting. To begin, I will take you into the realm of circular logic, and then ground you into reality.

    The Old Testament is full of prophesies of the (then) coming Messiah. A few of these prophesies can be read and compared in: Psalm 22 & Matthew 27:34-50,Psalm 22:16 & John 19:18,Isaiah 7:14 & Matthew 1:18-25, Micah 5:2 & Luke 2:4-7, just to name a few (Messianic Prophecies: The Bible’s predictions about Jesus, written centuries before He was born). This is significant because it proves Jesus`s divinity. We know these prophesies were written centuries before Jesus was born because we have the Dead Sea S
  • Profile photo of Catharsis1
    Catharsis1 Male 18-29
    3 posts
    November 19, 2011 at 11:29 pm
    So we have the Old Testament describing prophesies detailing Jesus’s lineage, and works that He would fulfill, and then we have the New Testament describing His fulfillment of these prophesies. At this point, many of you are no doubt screaming “circular logic!”. That would be true, except we have several secular sources from around that era which back these claims up. These sources include: Cornelius Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Tallus, Phlegon, Mara Bar-Serapion, Josephus ben Mattathias, Lucian of Samosate, The Babylonian Talmud, (THE OLDEST SECULAR ACCOUNTS & HISTORICAL EVIDENCE ON THE EXISTANCE OF JESUS OF NAZARETH), and Herodotus. So now we have divine prophesies, a man who fulfilled them, and secular sources that back these accounts up. This provides evidence that Jesus is the Son of God.
  • Profile photo of Catharsis1
    Catharsis1 Male 18-29
    3 posts
    November 19, 2011 at 11:30 pm
    We also have scholarly evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. A good article to read on this is, Contemporary Scholarship and the Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. It states that the core principle of Christianity is the resurrection of Jesus. Unless He actually resurrected there is no valid explanation for the sudden development and growth of the Christian movement.
  • Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 8:57 am
    Catharsis1:

    Are you seriously putting forward such an obviously circular argument as if it was logical?

    Your answer could serve as a textbook illustration of a variety of logical fallacies.

    You`re arguing that if enough people believe something them it proves that thing to be true. In particular, when that thing is an article of faith that followers are required to believe without evidence. I think that`s worse than just stating "it`s true because it`s true", then sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "LALALALALA I CAN`T HEAR YOU" as a "counterargument" to any reply. There`s more honesty in doing that.

    You`re adopting a ludicrously false predicate in order to pretend that the conclusion you chose beforehand has any support. There are numerous valid explanations for the sudden growth of Christianity.

    The corruption of reasoning is part of the harm of religion because it undermines the very idea of
  • Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 8:59 am
    Cut off as usual:

    The corruption of reasoning is part of the harm of religion because it undermines the very idea of rational thought. It`s a sneak attack on it.
  • Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 20, 2011 at 9:09 am
    More of the same in your previous post:

    i) Some people claiming that someone else fulfilled well-known prophecies (not well-known now, but well-known amongst Jews ~2000 years ago) does not logically constitute proof of both the prophecies and the fulfillment of them.

    ii) There are no contempory secular sources. There are some secular sources from a bit later, who describe what Christians believed. Describing what Christians believe does not logically constitute proof that what they believe is true. Some of the "secular" sources were faked by Christians later, anyway. To be accurate - some of them were so badly faked that the faking is obvious. There may well be better fakery involved as well, that can`t now clearly be shown to be fake. Also, not all of the sources you quote specifically because they`re secular actually are secular.
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