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Rating: 3.1
Category: Funny
Date: 11/28/11 01:55 PM

185 Responses to A Post For All The I-A-B Atheists [Pic]

  1. Profile photo of eugenius
    eugenius Male 30-39
    1620 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 1:56 pm
    Link: A Post For All The I-A-B Atheists - Forward this one to all your Christian friends, please.
  2. Profile photo of Buiadh
    Buiadh Male 30-39
    6739 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 2:00 pm
    Green medicine!?
  3. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3909 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 2:03 pm
    Exactly
  4. Profile photo of Mikeychan101
    Mikeychan101 Male 18-29
    2 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 2:03 pm
    Retoasted
  5. Profile photo of M_Archer
    M_Archer Male 18-29
    525 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 2:07 pm
    Well...

    In the Christian`s defense, keeping a healthy attitude is essential to life. A patient with no will to live on the precipice of death is not healthy.

    That being said, I`d put my life in Western medicine than in faith any day.
  6. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 2:08 pm
    Okay clearly an exaggeration.
  7. Profile photo of spandi
    spandi Male 18-29
    118 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 2:09 pm
    I understand the point of this, but it comes off as a touch too smug for my liking.
  8. Profile photo of kittyloaf
    kittyloaf Male 18-29
    213 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 2:11 pm
    yay!
  9. Profile photo of KeePay
    KeePay Male 18-29
    494 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 2:16 pm
    Way too smug. It`s not like he said the prayers are the "only" thing keeping him alive. I know it`s all meant to be a joke but it`s rather flat.
  10. Profile photo of ShroomGypsy
    ShroomGypsy Female 18-29
    64 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 2:20 pm
    Yeah, modern medicine is way more powerful than any religious faith. But a positive attitude can go a long way too. It`s called the placebo effect.
  11. Profile photo of tatripp
    tatripp Male 18-29
    1196 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 2:25 pm
    i`m not atheist but this was kind of funny
  12. Profile photo of tatripp
    tatripp Male 18-29
    1196 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 2:26 pm
    Hey M Archer, you must have FAITH in western medicine. hahahahhahaha
  13. Profile photo of RyanHake
    RyanHake Male 18-29
    2690 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 2:31 pm
    Idiotic post is idiotic. Why does this poo get posted on IAB? This site is going to continue a decline at this rate and it saddens me.
  14. Profile photo of BakedBrotato
    BakedBrotato Male 18-29
    47 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 2:45 pm
    Even if god doesn`t exist, I`m sure having your family pray for you would make you feel a lot better and give you more willpower to fight through whatever ailment you have.

    I`m not religious either, but you don`t need to be a douche about it.
  15. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 2:46 pm
    i`m not atheist but this was kind of funny
    I *am* atheist and I thought it was crap.
  16. Profile photo of choonma
    choonma Male 18-29
    142 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 2:56 pm
    Whatever happened to respecting differences in opinion? I can appreciate the occasional joke as long as the other side is represented too. This anti-god kick is getting old.
  17. Profile photo of Reaper171
    Reaper171 Male 18-29
    31 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 2:58 pm
    Bwahahaha perfect post, Ryan your just mad this takes the piss out of religion, Bwahahahaha idiot.
  18. Profile photo of skytz1337
    skytz1337 Male 18-29
    687 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 3:07 pm
    i srsly want that to happen for real...
  19. Profile photo of nijd
    nijd Male 18-29
    267 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 3:11 pm
    Though I do agree Ryan is an idiot from reading his other posts over time, he`s right for once.
  20. Profile photo of Quackor
    Quackor Male 18-29
    2856 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 3:11 pm
    you mean people that care for you and love you dont keep you alive?
  21. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 3:14 pm
    When even Davymid says an atheist post is crap, then it`s really crap.
  22. Profile photo of ggolbez
    ggolbez Male 18-29
    1933 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 3:17 pm
    I frankly would not wish to worship a god that allowed illness / death of my loved ones when it is clearly capable of stopping it. But instead, causes it on a grand scale. If there is an omniscient/omnipotent power watching over us, it is a masochist.
  23. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36874 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 3:36 pm

    This is exactly how I felt last year. When my born-again mother-in-law went on about how we should praise Jesus for saving her son {my husband} from cancer. I`m like - HELLO! Chemo! Ever heard of Chemo?

    Somehow, "praising Jesus" starts by thanking her prayer group for their Prayer Vigil. I`m not clear how total strangers whispering mumbo-jumbo hundreds of miles away helped, but I`ll have to take her word for it.

    I appreciate the kind thought, but if you`re totally useless in a situation and all you can do is whisper incantations, then go paint your navel blue if you feel the need to but do it quietly and don`t take credit for positive results you had no hand in achieving.
  24. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 4:12 pm
    Gerry, I *assume* they`re trying to pray the gay out of your husband, too? And that obviously hasn`t worked, so, you`d think they`d realize that prayer does about, well, nada. But, of course, and sadly, that`s not how faith works. To those of faith, all positive is due to a benevolent god and all negative is due to the deebil. I do rather appreciate the image of them going into their bathrooms and painting their navels blue, though. ;-)
  25. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 4:42 pm
    "In the Christian`s defense, keeping a healthy attitude is essential to life. A patient with no will to live on the precipice of death is not healthy. "
    I while back (~3 years, I think I was taking a psychology class though I don`t remember if I read it during that class or just on my own) I read a study where patients took longer to heal if they thought someone was praying for them versus thinking no one was praying for them. I believe the explanation behind it was they didn`t try as hard to recover because they thought someone else ("God") would take care of it for them.
  26. Profile photo of i-am-evil
    i-am-evil Male 18-29
    510 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 4:42 pm
    I would thank the doctor.
  27. Profile photo of M_Archer
    M_Archer Male 18-29
    525 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 5:16 pm
    Oh come on, Davy. It`s KIND OF funny.
  28. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33155 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 5:23 pm
    @LillianDulci: I too recall a small study from a long time ago (when I got my Psychology BA, lolz!) that showed praying for someone >>and them not knowing it<< slightly increased their survival.
    (a church was asked to pray for randomly selected cancer patients, the patients didn`t know about it)
    I seem to recall the one you mentioned too. Also that the ones who complain the most survive the best.
    Also: this is not funny, even a tiny bit.
  29. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 5:24 pm
    I wonder if he was TRYING to be funny?

    Lillian, i can find two studies that say it does help. We can find studies that tell us anything.

  30. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33155 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 5:24 pm
    Why does everyone ASSUME he`s a Christian? Muslims pray too ya know! Jews also.

    IAB, the B stands for Bigots?
  31. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 5:43 pm
    There are no double-blind studies anywhere, ever, at all, that demonstrate that prayer helps a patient recover from anything (this includes the famously-debunked Columbia Prayer Study, which wasn`t double blind, and had several other problems as well). To the contrary, all serious double-blind studies have shown absolutely zero effect from prayer. Double blind, controlled studies are the only way to ensure that the intervention is what`s causing the observed effect, and not research bias.
  32. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 5:48 pm
    Let me restate what I said below--there are no double-blind studies with a significant enough sample size to draw definitive results. There HAVE been small double blind studies that show disparate results (some even very positive), but, those results could be explained as easily by statistical anomaly as positive effect from the intervention because the sample size was so small. I just want to be accurate.
  33. Profile photo of Tobunshi
    Tobunshi Male 18-29
    678 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 5:58 pm
    5Cats is a whiny Christian.
  34. Profile photo of jadoig
    jadoig Male 30-39
    434 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 6:20 pm
    It`s hardly a fair trial if you can`t have a true control group.
  35. Profile photo of PringleMan
    PringleMan Female 13-17
    1356 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 6:36 pm
    What a terrible doctor!
  36. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 6:36 pm
    If there is an omniscient/omnipotent power watching over us, it is a masochist.

    I think you meant `sadist`, which is pretty much the opposite of `masochist`.

    The Abrahamic god looks more like a megalomaniacal sociopath to me, i.e. far worse than a sadist. A nutjob gang leader who demands grovelling and obedience to their every whim or they will kill you, only far, far worse than that. Same kind of person, but with vastly more power.

    Although there is the cherry-picking "nice god" perspective, which ignores most of the religions in order to portray their god as Super Hippy, the ultimate hero of peace and love. Which is nice, but they`d be mental by now if they cared about suffering but couldn`t stop it.
  37. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 6:40 pm
    What a terrible doctor!

    Understandable, though. If you`ve devoted your life to doing good and someone dismisses all of it despite all the vast amount of evidence behind it, it`s a very personal insult. It`s also dangerous, because their attitude kills people.
  38. Profile photo of Angelmassb
    Angelmassb Male 18-29
    15511 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 6:41 pm
    IT makes sense actually
  39. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33155 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 7:01 pm
    @SmagBoy1 is correct! However terribly few of this sort of study have ever been done at all. I think "ear candeling" has been studied more (go look it up!)

    5Cats is a whiny Christian.
    BZZZT! Do try again @Tobunshi! And fill out your profile! You`ve been here 6 years and don`t feel like letting us know who you are?

    He IS a terrible doctor! Willing to KILL a patient based on an emotional WHIM? Not nice.
  40. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 7:34 pm
    5Cats is a whiny Christian.

    BZZZT! Do try again
    No? Really now. I`ve always thought of you as completely insane of course, but self-contradicting not so much!
  41. Profile photo of pip_pip666
    pip_pip666 Female 18-29
    91 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 7:45 pm
    This is fair. Pray all you like but it won`t keep you alive.
  42. Profile photo of neojester12
    neojester12 Male 18-29
    141 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 8:06 pm
    Honestly, this is dumb and childish. Who ever posted this has the maturity of a 10 year old, telling all the other kids in the neighborhood that there`s no santa claus.
  43. Profile photo of Edgarska19
    Edgarska19 Male 18-29
    1045 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 8:12 pm
    @neojester12
    But that`s right, there is no Santa Claus.
  44. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33155 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 8:46 pm
    Well THANKS @LazyMe! I value honesty and integrity highly. Being a hypocrite (ie: self-contradicting; ie: a leftist) is bad in my books.
    Completely insane? Not yet, but I`m working on it!
    True to my principles and values? Check! Thanks for noticing!
    I DO HOPE you`re being nice. It says RIGHT HERE what my religious beliefs are, and it ain`t "Christian" eh?

    @neojester12 & @Edgarska19: LIES! Damnable lies!
  45. Profile photo of ledzeppeloyd
    ledzeppeloyd Male 18-29
    2385 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 9:50 pm
    the ball is in your court, christians, actually its been in your court for a long ass time
  46. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 10:09 pm
    5Cats said: "Well THANKS @LazyMe! I value honesty and integrity highly. Being a hypocrite (ie: self-contradicting; ie: a leftist) is bad in my books."

    Come on 5Cats. When you label everyone (leftists) as being self-contradicting hypocrites, you immediately write off the 50% of society that doesn`t agree with you *purely politically* as being liars and cheats.

    Dude, I like you. But it`s no secret that I lean to the left of the political spectrum. Would you so glibly label me as a self-contradicting hypocrite devoid of honesty and integrity?

    See, this is what`s wrong with the western world these days. We`re all in the same boat, yet we`re all squabbling. There`s no middle ground, it`s us and them.

    See my RANT of a few minutes ago on the OWS vs Tea Party link.
  47. Profile photo of Chaosmaster
    Chaosmaster Male 30-39
    234 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 10:48 pm
    "the ball is in your court, christians, actually its been in your court for a long ass time"

    God is keeping him alive by giving man the intelligence and inspiration to invent the drugs needed to cure him. I can argue for and against religion, none of it is ever conclusive.
  48. Profile photo of Hedkwab
    Hedkwab Male 18-29
    340 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 11:03 pm
    "I can argue for and against religion, none of it is ever conclusive."

    You can also argue for and against the idea of the creator being a giant invisible taco, and none of it will ever be conclusive. You can`t disprove it can you? Might as well dedicate your life to worshiping it!

    (Or burn in Salsa Hell)
  49. Profile photo of carmium
    carmium Female 50-59
    6381 posts
    November 28, 2011 at 11:47 pm
    I had some relatives I`d recently met show up at my bedside before major surgery. And one was a preacher. You know what happened next: "Let`s offer a prayer for (Carmium`s) successful surgery bla-bla-bla-" I was mortified, lying in a four-bed room with my personal clergyman doing incantations over my bed.
  50. Profile photo of ferdyfred
    ferdyfred Male 40-49
    13631 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 12:45 am
    I had double pneumonia, around 8 years ago. Vicar gave me the last rites twice, and on the third time arrived, and apparently said, (as I was out of it) ``Oh its him again, he`ll be ok, he always is`` does this make me godly???
  51. Profile photo of Fleaman1797
    Fleaman1797 Male 18-29
    718 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 1:06 am
    All Atheists are A.s.s.holes. prove me wrong.
  52. Profile photo of ccalhoun86
    ccalhoun86 Male 18-29
    76 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 2:15 am
    God is a flying spaghetti monster. Google it. Wikipedia it. Hell, I don`t care, go make some spaghetti. Eat it. It will be more fulfilling then reading a two thousand year old collection of boring fairy tales and "witnessed events" merged together to form an incoherent and contradictory belief system based on some guy who went from being a little boy to a great man much the same way Simba did in the lion king. @fleamn1797, actually, you`re the non-nice individual for passing judgment on others, you hypocrite.
  53. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 2:30 am
    ha!, win
  54. Profile photo of lostinkorea
    lostinkorea Female 30-39
    3727 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 2:48 am
    YES!!!!! GOING TO FB NOW!

    @Fleaman1797: The only judgmental a-hole I see, is....... (quick, get a mirror)
  55. Profile photo of tommy2X4
    tommy2X4 Male 50-59
    3447 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 3:08 am
    @Fleaman1797~ All Southerners are stupid.
  56. Profile photo of FinkStinger
    FinkStinger Male 30-39
    147 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 4:02 am
    @ fleaman...I can`t prove you wrong, since I`m both an a.s.s.hole and an atheist, but I`ve never slept with my sister so I`m still one up on you.
  57. Profile photo of schecter4
    schecter4 Male 18-29
    31 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 5:18 am
    lostinkorea, I think you can add tommy2x4 to the list.

    I`m from georgia... I can safely disagree with his statement. That`d be like me calling all people from the north self centered, rude, angry jackasses.

    I disagree with that statement though. My mom is from ohio. She`s just a bitch.
  58. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33155 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 5:37 am
    @DavyMid: Like you too bro!
    Conservatives have been assailed by the MSM for decades: called every name in the book, accused of every wrongdoing imaginable!
    When`s the last time you saw a positive, honest conservative on a TV show? idk.
    The only thing is, now us righties are talking back, calling it when the left opens it`s playbook of slander and abuse. When tasting their own medicine, most leftists get plenty angry, but it`s what I`ve endured since comming to the "right side".

    Did you see that thread where I objected to homosmack, and lefties were defending it?

    Ever notice how the leftist media treats black conservatives in the ststes? The NAMES they throw around in a casual way?

    Anyhow, I totally agree that the "middle ground" has rapidly disappeared, since Nixon? Kennedy? anyhow it`s been going for a long time, and it`s not a good thing to lose.
  59. Profile photo of TkA
    TkA Male 30-39
    115 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 5:53 am
    Prayer is always a really powerful thing. Only fools reject and mock it.
  60. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14657 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 7:10 am
    "Prayer is always a really powerful thing. Only fools reject and mock it."

    It is a powerful placebo for those who are easily led.
  61. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 9:29 am
    @TkA

    "Prayer is always a really powerful thing."

    Is that so? Neat!

    I`m praying really hard right now for you to instantly grow a two foot long purple penis right in the middle of your forehead.

    If prayer is powerful, it should happen, right?
  62. Profile photo of bophus
    bophus Male 30-39
    474 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 10:21 am
    @Fleaman1797

    I am not an a@@hole. I can have actual people back me up on this, who know me personally and have actually seen me. So your point is disproven.

    Now, prove that god exists.
  63. Profile photo of bophus
    bophus Male 30-39
    474 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 10:31 am
    choonma said:
    "Whatever happened to respecting differences in opinion? I can appreciate the occasional joke as long as the other side is represented too. This anti-god kick is getting old."

    This anti-god kick, is not a kick. More and more are starting to believe/see that there is no god. We believe this, because there is zero evidence for god`s existence. That combined with religions constant changing of the rules to suite the masses, gives us a pretty good idea what is going on. Religion was started out of fear when we didnt know any better. Ancient humans saw lightning come from the sky or their family/friends die, they dont understand what happened. someone must have been mad at them. That is where god came from. obviously a very basic and rough version. But, right along those lines.

    It is the narcissist in all of us that doesnt want t let us believe that death is the end or we are here for no reason.
  64. Profile photo of Trumple07
    Trumple07 Male 13-17
    422 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 10:43 am
    "Prayer is always a really powerful thing. Only fools reject and mock it."
    lol
  65. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 10:47 am
    Considering that the very idea of building hospitals and taking care of the sick was a Christian idea and that Christian`s actually cared about improving care for for patients by starting Universities to train doctors. I believe that this cartoon disregards the history of medical care and medical training.

    Christians don`t just rely on God to do everything for them, that would just be ridiculous, God motivates people to care for others and is fact Jesus` greatest commandment.

    What is there to motivate an atheist doctor or nurse, to give the best care, besides money ? Answer, Nothing.
  66. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1610 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 11:13 am
    What is there to motivate an atheist doctor or nurse, to give the best care, besides money ? Answer, Nothing.

    Sympathy and empathy. It`s perverse that you`d think these cease to exist without Christianity, but don`t worry, I won`t lose any sleep over it.
  67. Profile photo of TKD_Master
    TKD_Master Male 18-29
    4794 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 11:41 am
    "What is there to motivate an atheist doctor or nurse, to give the best care, besides money ? Answer, Nothing.


    Sympathy and empathy. It`s perverse that you`d think these cease to exist without Christianity, but don`t worry, I won`t lose any sleep over it."

    This just needed to be reposted. That is all.

    P.S. WTF is wrong with you christian nut-jobs? Get some god damn morals on your own and stop being ignorant.
  68. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 12:21 pm
    "Ever notice how the leftist media treats black conservatives in the ststes? The NAMES they throw around in a casual way?"

    Ever see Ann Coulter mention "our blacks vs. their blacks"? You`re too focused on trying to aggravate left-wingers to notice that when two people fight in a mud pit everyone gets dirty.
  69. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 12:26 pm
    "Considering that the very idea of building hospitals and taking care of the sick was a Christian idea "

    Sorry but the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Indians beat them to it.
  70. Profile photo of spanerbulb
    spanerbulb Male 30-39
    1244 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 12:56 pm
    My dear CrakrJak, human empathy and sympathy are not constructs of Christianity, rather they are a naturally developed through many thousands of years of evolution to enable our species to be successful and co-operative. Remember, Christianity is a human construct borne from the early philosophical endeavours of our ancestors.
  71. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 1:16 pm
    Brassbull & spanerbulb: And just where do believe human empathy and sympathy came from ? It didn`t come from the Egyptians, Greeks, Early Romans, Carthaginians, Babylonians, Barbarians or the Mongols. There was certainly no human empathy and sympathy in the communist or nazi systems of govt. in the 19th century.

    So please tell me, if it wasn`t from the Judeo-Christian ethic, where did human empathy and sympathy come from ?
  72. Profile photo of simbha
    simbha Male 30-39
    412 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 1:18 pm
    Considering that the very idea of building hospitals and taking care of the sick was a Christian idea and that Christian`s actually cared about improving care for for patients by starting Universities to train doctors. I believe that this cartoon disregards the history of medical care and medical training.

    The first hospitals in the world were created by various people predating Jesus Christ as an historical figure - places like India, Egypt and Greece.

    The first academic institutions for the training of health care providers was in Persia, circa the 6th or 7th century.

    What is there to motivate an atheist doctor or nurse, to give the best care, besides money ? Answer, Nothing.

    Answer: Compassion for your fellow man, not because it`s imposed upon you by a divine being, but because it`s the right thing to do.
  73. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 1:20 pm
    patchgrabber: The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Indians sequestered/imprisoned sick people and kept them away from the healthy as a matter of disease control, it wasn`t because they any human empathy or sympathy for those dying there.

    Nice try, but you fail.
  74. Profile photo of simbha
    simbha Male 30-39
    412 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 1:20 pm
    Brassbull & spanerbulb: And just where do believe human empathy and sympathy came from ? It didn`t come from the Egyptians, Greeks, Early Romans, Carthaginians, Babylonians, Barbarians or the Mongols. There was certainly no human empathy and sympathy in the communist or nazi systems of govt. in the 19th century.

    So please tell me, if it wasn`t from the Judeo-Christian ethic, where did human empathy and sympathy come from ?

    There are countless examples of human empathy across all strata in human society that predate Christianity. Jesus didn`t teach people to empathize. He reminded people to empathize - just as many other teachers in history have done.

    If you call yourself a Christian and believe your statements above, then you minimize the gifts that your God have given unto mankind, including empathy for one`s own kind. Is that really what you believe?
  75. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 1:32 pm
    simbha: And who ruled Persia in the 6th and 7th century ? Oh that`s right, it was God believing muslims. and there was no `school` per se just texts.

    But besides that, the first medical school was opened in Salerno, Italy in the 9th century
  76. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 1:32 pm
    @CrakrJack

    Do you know anything about history? They didn`t just "imprison/sequester", they healed at pagan temples, performed surgeries, and the earliest recorded encyclopedia of medicine was the Indian Compendium of Caraka, which described the building of hospitals. Is willful ignorance of your own religion`s history a pasttime of yours? Just claiming arbitrary axiomatic statements doesn`t make you correct.

    In short, sorry, but YOU fail. -1 internets.
  77. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 1:55 pm
    simbha: Yes there was some empathy shown to beggars and poor people before Christianity, but the subject here is medicine and doctoring.

    Most everyone feared and avoided the sick, they were terrified of them and kept them away, the only empathy shown them were from family members that brought them food and water.

    It wasn`t until the 9th and 10th centuries were Doctors trained and real hospitals built to cure sick people, not just house them til they died.

    Medicine didn`t even have crude antibiotics until after the civil war, Peroxides weren`t developed until the 1800`s, Aspirin wasn`t isolated from willow bark until 1829, and the first Sulfonamide didn`t appear until 1932. Before that the only `drugs` medicine had were Morphine and Ether to control pain.

    Can you tell that my mom was a nurse ? You`re fighting a loosing battle debating medical history with me.
  78. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 2:01 pm
    patchgrabber: They didn`t `heal` anyone at pagan temples, they blew smoke over them and tried to `purify` them with ritualistic ceremony.

    As for Acharya Charaka and the Ayurveda, they were lifestyle books on how to stay healthy by eating `balanced meals`, so you fail again there.
  79. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 2:06 pm
    CrakrJak:

    Your notion of ancient medicine is just plain wrong. You make it seem like when someone got sick before Christianity, people just piled them in a room and left them to die.

    Read "Mending bodies, saving souls: a history of hospitals" by G.B. Risse. Greeks had temples dedicated to their healer-God and functioned as some of the earliest hospitals. They didn`t just "imprison" sick people, they tried to cure them using medicine. Christians did NOT invent hospitals OR medicine, they merely spearheaded its advancement once they got there.
  80. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 2:10 pm
    Actually, Charaka knew genetics, studied human anatomy, practiced preventative medicine, and was the first physician to present the concept of digestion, metabolism and immunity. They weren`t an ancient form of the South Beach Diet, so YOU fail again.
  81. Profile photo of simbha
    simbha Male 30-39
    412 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 2:10 pm
    Can you tell that my mom was a nurse ? You`re fighting a loosing battle debating medical history with me.

    LOL! So, your mom was a nurse and that makes you an expert on the history of medicine?

    My mom was a professor of electrical engineering and robotics. And, my dad was a civil engineer. I guess that means I can make a MechaGodzilla! LOL
  82. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 2:11 pm
    If you`re going to continue this how about actually referencing a source instead of bull-headedly disagreeing with the facts I`m presenting you with. Just saying "they didn`t do that" is a child`s argument.
  83. Profile photo of simbha
    simbha Male 30-39
    412 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 2:16 pm
    But besides that, the first medical school was opened in Salerno, Italy in the 9th century

    Someone should tell Hippocrates and - after him - the folks at the Academy of Gondishapur. Clearly they didn`t exist.

    The Schola Medica Salernitana was the first medical school in Medieval Europe - not the first medical school in the world. That is, unless the world is Europe, and time started in the 5th century CE.
  84. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 2:20 pm
    patchgrabber: The greeks did little more than the pagans before them, not much more than witch doctors and faith healers do now. Sorry but that`s not medicine nor were there real hospitals where people go to actually get cured.

    Charaka didn`t `know` crap, they guessed at it much like the alchemists guessed there were 4 elements, earth, air, fire, and water. About the only thing they cured was constipation.
  85. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 2:26 pm
    Simbha: Again, Gondishapur medical `training` was more about diet than actually curing sick people, and to be specific there is no evidence they cured anyone that had more than a stomach ache or constipation.

    You guys are grasping at straws and it really shows.
  86. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 2:28 pm
    Well, if you`re going to go on with this farce of an argument then I`m done. You have nothing except your opinion to dispute the facts I`ve presented. Charaka DID know some fundamentals of genetics, he knew the factors determining the sex of a child. A genetic defect in a child, he said, was not due to any defect in the mother or the father, but in the ovum or sperm of the parents.

    People weren`t born with modern medical knowledge, its discovery was a process, and that process was not started by Christians, which was my original point. You present nothing of value except opinion, whereas I present referenced material and fact. That`s a win for me, and I hope someday your pride will allow you to admit when you`re wrong. I`m done with this "argument".
  87. Profile photo of djlazar
    djlazar Male 30-39
    185 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 4:02 pm
    Yawn. Preachy athiests.
  88. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1610 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 4:40 pm
    And just where do believe human empathy and sympathy came from ?

    The brain. They are innate human emotions which have been around long before people even had a word for them.
  89. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 5:17 pm
    Considering that the very idea of building hospitals and taking care of the sick was a Christian idea and that Christian`s actually cared about improving care for for patients by starting Universities to train doctors.

    Holy poo! Christians invented time travel and went back to before the beginning of Christianity to start those things? Wow! I never knew that. How was that covered up and why have you chosen IAB today to unveil the secret knowledge that you are the custodian of?

    What is there to motivate an atheist doctor or nurse, to give the best care, besides money ? Answer, Nothing.

    Are you really as much of a sociopath as you`re claiming to be?

    And yes, you are claiming to be a sociopath. You`re claiming that there is no such thing as caring about other people. Only a sociopath could claim that and even a sociopath could be intellectually aware of the concept.
  90. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 5:21 pm
    The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Indians sequestered/imprisoned sick people and kept them away from the healthy as a matter of disease control, it wasn`t because they any human empathy or sympathy for those dying there.

    Only in your fantasy history of a world in which everyone is a sociopath. In the real world, things were very different.
  91. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 5:27 pm
    The greeks did little more than the pagans before them, not much more than witch doctors and faith healers do now. Sorry but that`s not medicine nor were there real hospitals where people go to actually get cured.

    Ancient Greek physicians were performing operations such as removing cataracts and superficial brain surgery to remove skull splinters after a head injury. There`s ample reporting of that sort of thing, even detailed instructions on it. The head injury example is from the skeleton of a gladiator and it`s proven that he survived the surgery at least long enough for his skull to heal.

    And yes, they had real hospitals where people went to get cured. They had a better chance than they did in early Christian hospitals, which were much closer to the "witch doctors and faith healers" you refer to because they only had part of the Greek medical knowledge.
  92. Profile photo of I-Am-Goatse
    I-Am-Goatse Male 18-29
    165 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 5:34 pm
    I like how every religion-related post has these GIANT WALLS OF USELESS TEXT.
  93. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 5:36 pm
    Medicine didn`t even have crude antibiotics until after the civil war, Peroxides weren`t developed until the 1800`s, Aspirin wasn`t isolated from willow bark until 1829, and the first Sulfonamide didn`t appear until 1932. Before that the only `drugs` medicine had were Morphine and Ether to control pain.

    So...are you now arguing that medicine didn`t really get going until after people got out from under the domination of religion, specifically Christianity?

    I`d agree with that.

    Incidentally, they used penicillin long before the 1930s. They had no idea what it was or why it worked, but they knew that a poultice from mouldy bread reduced the chance of infection in wounds. You can find clear references in medieval apothecary texts and I`m almost sure it was in use in ancient Greece. I`d look it up, but I don`t care enough and you don`t care about evidence or reality, so there`s no point.
  94. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 6:02 pm
    So please tell me, if it wasn`t from the Judeo-Christian ethic, where did human empathy and sympathy come from?
    They come from the fact that humans are a social species. We evolved to work in groups. Part of working in a group is an understanding that if everyone in the group dies or is left behind due to some minor injury, then we are alone--and a lone human in the world is helpless.

    Much as a pack of wolves will bring food to a pack member with a broken leg until it heals, humans care about those around them on an instinctive level. We have empathy, sympathy, and compassion for the simple reason that society cannot function without those things.
  95. Profile photo of Listypoos
    Listypoos Male 40-49
    3069 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 7:13 pm
    "This anti-god kick is getting old."


    perhaps it would stop if he turned up to complain in person.

    The post may or may not have been funny...but it was titled "A post for all the IAB atheists".

    so why have all the moany drating god squad even bothered reading it in the first place? Just to have an opportunity of being offended?
  96. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 8:17 pm
    Brassbull & Angilion: Empathy and sympahty for others, not of your clan or family unit, did not really exist before the Jews. Before then it was dog eat dog, and there is ample evidence for that.

    Sure there were curious people attempting experiments on people that had been injured, and btw that goes back to the early Chinese, but it was motivated out of inquisitiveness not empathy.

    I`m not claiming that non-Christians are sociopaths, I`m claiming that medicinal empathy and sympathy for others was built upon the Christian ethic. They built the leper colonies, the TB clinics, cared for and cured those that were enemy and friend equally, started the Red Cross, built universities to teach doctors and nurses, and fostered modern medicine as we know it. No other culture before it invested the time and effort Christianity has into medicine, pathology, and patient care.
  97. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 8:29 pm
    Hey M Archer, you must have FAITH in western medicine.
    I don`t have FAITH, I have FACTS. Western medicine has observable, demonstrable results that I can see and feel with or without faith. So you`re an idiot.

    (Or burn in Salsa Hell)
    Mmm... Sounds delicious. I already know I`m gonna burn, might as well enjoy it.

    That`d be like me calling all people from the north self centered, rude, angry jackasses.
    We`re not? Well damn, couldn`t prove it by me...


    And I could just go off on Crakr`s stupidity for hours on end, but it`ll never get through his thick skull so I`d rather not waste the battery life on my laptop.
  98. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1610 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 8:50 pm
    medicinal empathy and sympathy

    LOL. Crakrjak, with all due respect, you are SO full of poo.
  99. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 9:05 pm
    Yaezakura: Human beings are inherently clannish, back then, anyone outside your clan did not receive empathy.

    It was not until Jesus` parable of the Good Samaritan, in Luke 10: 25-37, that the concept of helping complete strangers, and eventually society at large, was even thought of. Before then that type of empathy was a totally foreign concept, so much so that when Jesus said it, it shocked people.
  100. Profile photo of lawndartsftw
    lawndartsftw Male 40-49
    1811 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 9:06 pm
    Sorry, everyone, but, if atheists say or do anything on the internet besides rip on deists (esp christians) I have yet to come across it. As long as that is all that comes out of the atheist community (seemingly), well, to me, your take on things is invalid. tl;dr sort your poo out, atheists...
  101. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 9:25 pm
    It was not until Jesus` parable of the Good Samaritan, in Luke 10: 25-37, that the concept of helping complete strangers, and eventually society at large, was even thought of. Before then that type of empathy was a totally foreign concept, so much so that when Jesus said it, it shocked people.
    Crackrjak, please stop talking before you hurt yourself. You`re an intelligent guy. You CANNOT be this self-deluded (I hope).

    I`d like to see your proof that up until the birth of Jesus that there was no such thing as empathy, sympathy, and altruism among the ancient pre-Christian cultures.

    You speak of physicians up to that point, including the Egyptians, Byzantines, Greeks, Persians, Chinese, Indians etc as being merely gruesomely curious and not interested in healing people. That they incarcerated people into quarantine instead of being genuinely interested in helping them.

    Evidence, please. Not a big ask.
  102. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 9:37 pm
    Seriously, why do you see the world in such black-and-white? Everything good about the world (caring for others less fortunate, sympathy, empathy, altruism) was invented when Jesus Christ was born. Bullwank. Is everything that`s not you such a perceived threat to you?

    These are human conditions, they`re as old as humanity. It didn`t magically start at zero AD.

    Besides, I take especial offense at your comment on how non-Christian doctors can only possibly be motivated by money, because they have no other morals to live by. My cousin, and very close friend, is a doctor (oncologist, cancer specialist). He`s also an atheist. Doesn`t believe in the supernatural, believes in evidence, science, observable reality, that kind of thing.
  103. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 9:37 pm
    It`s insulting to him and to peopl of his profession, to proclaim that he`s only motivated by money (i.e. greed) because he`s not a Christian. I assure you, he`s not. He`s just trying to help people. Because they`re people.

    Sorry to say this Crakrjak, but Christianity didn`t invent helping other people out. And non-Christians do it because it`s simply the right thing to do, not because they`re afraid of an almighty invisible sky-fairy that might send them to hell if they don`t.
  104. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 9:48 pm
    davymid: There is ample evidence in the ancient histories that mankind was clannish and self-centered, in many ways it still is.

    I never said that empathy and sympathy didn`t ever exist, it just didn`t happen outside of one`s family or clan back then. The evidence for quarantining whole families, villages and towns goes back before recorded history.

    Avoiding the sick was so ingrained, and people feared disease so much, that it took over a millennium for that attitude to change even after Jesus` Good Samaritan parable.
  105. Profile photo of Stonardsftw
    Stonardsftw Male 18-29
    321 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 9:49 pm
    Well said, davymid.
  106. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 10:00 pm
    davymid: Where did the dominate ethics and morality of western society come from ? Your cousin and other doctors grew up with, and benefited from, those Judeo-Christian ethics and were taught them from birth even if you or him never grew up as Christians.

    No one develops their ethics in a vacuum, they are influenced by the history and society they grew up in and face it you and him both grew up in, and were influenced by, the western societal Christian ethic.

    Christian society developed "the right thing to do" Atheist`s didn`t.
  107. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 10:29 pm
    davymid: Where did the dominate ethics and morality of western society come from ? Your cousin and other doctors grew up with, and benefited from, those Judeo-Christian ethics and were taught them from birth even if you or him never grew up as Christians.
    Why then do doctors take the "Hippocratic oath", from Hippocrates of ancient Greece, you fool? If all sense of medicinal care stems from Jesus Christ, surely they`d be taking the "Jesus Oath" or somesuch.

    Seriously, can you not admit, even to yourself, that healing people who are sick to help them happens outside of Christianity? The Japanese anren`t Christian. Neither are the Hindus of India. Neither is the Dalai Lama (Buddhist), who is about the most altruistic empathic person I can think of.

    And likewise, neither is anyone in my immediate family.

    I`m sorry Crakrjak, but your labelling (and that`s all it is) of anyone who`s not Christian as being devoid of morals i
  108. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 10:29 pm
    It hurts me to say this, but of all the people I care about in my life, both real-life and online, you disgust me the most.

    The attitude of "my side has done everything good in the world", vs. "your side is evil (nice to note that you brought the Nazis into it)" has never helped humanity.

    You keep talking, Crakjak. I`ll keep shovelling.
  109. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 10:31 pm
    The evidence for quarantining whole families, villages and towns goes back before recorded history
    goes back before recorded history
    before recorded history
    before

    How does Crakerjack know what happened before recorded history?

    besides attacking the semantics of his post, i`d like to tell you crackr how frustrating it is to read your `contributions`. i`ve lurked here on for a long time and every time you get into a religious debate you speak only in generalities where people like davymid and Angillion cite specific historical points.
    You ignore good arguments and you backtrack to cover your butt. it`s infuriating. you keep saying things like "well documented"without ever elaborating
  110. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 10:49 pm

    Anything you are capable of feeling or thinking or doing is a product or bi-product of evolution and adaptation. unless you`re a young earther ( i don`t know if Crakr is)then you`ve got to believe that as homo sapien sapiens we`ve have more or less the same instincts and reactions to things as our ancestors. empathy and sympathy keep a group strong but they are not limited to close kin. Yeah i bet they distrusted the `other` if they posed a threat but i bet they also showed altruism. (note this is specualtion, something i`d like Crakr to admit he`s doin more often)
    We`re actually still operating with an clannish `us and them` mentality. it`s just that we`re dealing in bigger groups which are themselves tiered.
  111. Profile photo of Spear
    Spear Male 18-29
    36 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 11:16 pm
    drating keyboard warriors...
  112. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    November 29, 2011 at 11:39 pm
    lol it`s the only avenue open to most of us. you can join the army or you can brawl in the street. one gets you arrested and Harper is none too kind to injured returning veterans
  113. Profile photo of ccalhoun86
    ccalhoun86 Male 18-29
    76 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 12:18 am
    Summary. Medical knowledge and procedure has evolved at a rapid pace in the last 200 years. Christian`s existed during that time period. CrackrJak seems to believe that these two things existing at the same time means Christians deserve all the glory and praise for it. Patchgrabber and Simbha state facts on the origin of medicine and hospitals, CrackrJak disputes them by saying his mom is a nurse and the very basic medical practices dating before christianity wasn`t very effective, thus we can just ignore it. Like the origin of mathematics... astrology, apparently, they have to evolve to a certain point, apparently, when christians come into mainstream, for them to have any value.
  114. Profile photo of ccalhoun86
    ccalhoun86 Male 18-29
    76 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 12:38 am
    Note: The biggest dispute crackrjack makes is that people avoided and herded the ill pre judeo christianity. To this day we call this survival. They did not have the knowledge or technology to treat or cure a lot of the diseases that plagued society hundreds to thousands of years ago. Obviously, if you understand contamination, and see entire "clans" perish from one person contracting an illness, then a month later someone in your "clan" shows all the symptoms that wiped out your neighbor clan, you quarantine. If terrorists dropped a biological weapon in new york, that could spread very fast, with no known cure, and wipe out America if not contained, what would the U.S. Government do? Quarantine. Have you ever seen Stephen King`s "The Stand"? Same concept. You aren`t a sheep, you`re a human. And Jesus isn`t your shepherd, he`s just some guy who died a long time ago. @lawndarts, you`re an idiot. Wikipedia "scientist"
  115. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 12:47 am
    davymid: Actually doctors are no longer required to take what was called the "Hippocratic oath", but was changed in 1948 to the "Physician`s Oath" in Geneva, especially since swearing an oath to Apollo was rather dated and out of style by then.

    I never said that medical healing, today, isn`t performed outside the west. After all, the teaching of doctors and building of hospitals spread quite a bit when Europe started colonizing the East.

    Please, quit trying to put words in my mouth, I never called you evil or equated you to a nazi, you`re building up straw men now to demonize me.

    You`d rather pull out your own teeth than admit the truth of your own ethical upraising. You aren`t Christian, true, but you were raised with western societal ethics derived from the teachings of Christ.
  116. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 1:19 am
    ... Davy:

    Perhaps that knowledge irks you, perhaps I pressed a `hot button` of yours, but what it comes down to is your hate of everything Christian. I`m sorry you grew up in a war torn country, over religion, perhaps if Ireland had been peaceful things would be different.

    But that`s no reason to deny the source of western societal ethics, or hate on Christians like me.

    ReBoot: Would it really matter if I gave you sources, honestly ? I doubt it would.

    It`s easy enough to find them on your own if you really wanted to, but you`d rather not look for or educate yourself.

    I could send you to Leviticus 13, but if you deny the history of the bible that won`t do, now will it ? But it can`t be hard for you to believe that some cavemen developed cholera, in ancient times, downstream from herding animals, and the other cave inhabitants fleeing the `evil spirits` that had befallen their comrades, can it ?
  117. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 1:36 am
    ccalhoun: CrackrJak seems to believe that these two things existing at the same time means Christians deserve all the glory and praise for it.

    No I don`t, but Christians set the example, and built the universities and hospitals for that research to happen.

    The problem comes when atheists falsely try to pry that historical fact away from reality, as if atheists have the sole claim to modern medicine and science. They condescendingly see Christians only as superstitious fools, despite the numerous scientific and medical advances discovered by Christians.
  118. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 6:53 am
    I think it`s funny how you keep up with these red herrings Crakr, try to stay on topic cupcake. Your original point was that Christians started hospitals. The numerous references we`ve provided clearly refute that. No one is denying the large impact Christianity has had on medicine, but that`s BESIDE THE POINT.

    Would it really matter if I gave you sources, honestly ? I doubt it would.

    There`s the crux of the matter. Leviticus 13 is NO proof that Christians started hospitals. I`ll argue using your method: Leviticus 13 just details the imprisonment of sick people and is more of a guide for healthy eating than actually curing leprosy.

    See how ridiculous that sounds?
  119. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 7:03 am
    Actually doctors are no longer required to take what was called the "Hippocratic oath", but was changed in 1948 to the "Physician`s Oath" in Geneva, especially since swearing an oath to Apollo was rather dated and out of style by then.

    Red. Herring. You didn`t refute Davy`s comment. If you can`t follow basic rules of argument, then you cannot cry straw man.
  120. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 8:10 am
    No I don`t, but Christians set the example, and built the universities and hospitals for that research to happen.

    The problem comes when atheists falsely try to pry that historical fact away from reality, as if atheists have the sole claim to modern medicine and science. They condescendingly see Christians only as superstitious fools, despite the numerous scientific and medical advances discovered by Christians.
    Even if this is granted to be accurate (And I can assure you such things existed long before Christianity itself), then what you are saying is that individuals who happen to be Christian have done things to influence scientific discovery. Because Christianity itself has done nothing.

    In fact, as the cause of the Dark Ages, Christianity has resulted in a net loss of scientific and medical knowledge. Our medical skills could be hundreds of years more advanced if not for the oppression of the "Christ-like".
  121. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 11:28 am
    Yaezakura: The `Dark ages`, as you put it, was dark because of the numerous plagues and diseases that occurred when people began switching from a mostly isolated agrarian civilization to a city/state civilization and they didn`t have the sanitation or medical knowledge to handle outbreaks very well, besides the aforementioned quarantines.

    The enlightenment and the renaissance after it though was spurred on by scholars, most of whom were scribes, monks, and priests because they knew how to read and write. Christians didn`t cause the dark ages, they survived them when many civilizations, before them, died off from plagues and disease outbreaks. The Babylonian, Egyptian, Carthaginian, and the Persian empires were all conquered because they were crippled by plagues.
  122. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 11:46 am
    patchgrabber: As I figured, you`re a hopeless ideologue that won`t even do a little more research and realize what were supposedly `hospitals` in ancient times were nothing more than pre-morgues. Those buildings were only called `hospitals` because the translator of those old texts had no other word to describe them.

    The etymology of the word Hospital comes from the french word Hostel which means guest house, and the Latin word for stranger Hospes, before then the word Hospital didn`t even exist.

    As I said before, what existed in ancient times were more like almshouses, sometimes they were just caves often located near the trash dumps, places where the poor, disabled, and sick were isolated from the rest of society.

    It was curiosity not benevolence that drove the first so called `physicians` to investigate injuries and illness.
  123. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 11:53 am
    Would it really matter if I gave you sources, honestly ? I doubt it would

    ...you`re a hopeless ideologue that won`t even do a little more research...

    Sounds like you took the hypocrite`s oath. You can try your semantic gymnastics and give all the red herrings you want, but it won`t change the fact that Christians DID NOT INVENT HOSPITALS. You have ZERO sources besides your own opinion. Indians and the rest were CLEARLY practicing medicine before Christians, and your opinion is balderdash. Give a source or STFU.
  124. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 2:43 pm
    True say patchgrabber.
    Crakr: yes it really would matter if you provided sources or examples. you assertion that peolpe should go look thiongs up for themselves is one you`ve made a lot in the past. that`s not how it works bud. you make a claim, YOU back it up.
    I do admit to some laziness however which is why i`m glad davymind has a lot more motivation than i do lol.
    That said i don`t think it would much matter because as patchgrabber points out you keep changing the focus of your argument as each point is knocked on its @ss and arguing semantics.
    I realize this doesn`t add anything to the debate topic but what i`m hoping Crakr, is that if you hear this enough times you`ll start actually debating like the grown up you must surely be by 40-49 lol
    oh yeah, Leviticus 13. if you`re gong to cite sources then you have to use ones with agreed upon historical veracity
  125. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33155 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 5:12 pm
    Look how well India treated people with leprocy, until that B1TCH Mother Teresa came along...
  126. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 8:36 pm
    I`m not claiming that non-Christians are sociopaths

    I didn`t say you were. I said you were arguing that EVERYBODY is a sociopath.

    Which you are doing.

    You`re arguing that compassion and care for others was invented by Christianity and only exists because Christianity was powerful enough to change every society everywhere.

    Leaving aside the obvious ridiculousness of your argument for the moment, you are in fact arguing that what we think is compassion and care for others isn`t really - it`s obedience to Christian rules. That`s not compassion or caring for others, which has to come from within rather than being imposed from outside forces.

    So you are arguing that everyone is devoid of compassion and caring for others.

    You are arguing that everyone is a sociopath.
  127. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 8:44 pm
    The `Dark ages`, as you put it, was dark because of the numerous plagues and diseases that occurred when people began switching from a mostly isolated agrarian civilization to a city/state civilization and they didn`t have the sanitation or medical knowledge to handle outbreaks very well, besides the aforementioned quarantines.

    Every aspect of that paragraph is wrong.

    The `Dark Age` was dark in the sense of lacking historical evidence. That`s why historians no longer use the term for western Europe and Britain after the fall of the Roman empire - archaeology has pieced together enough evidence to shine some light onto that period of time.

    The general trend was moving *away* from a densely populated urban environment and *towards* a more spread out agrarian one - it was Roman knowledge and organisation that enabled cities and that no longer existed to enough of an extent.

    The worst of the plagues came later, after the "Dark Age&qu
  128. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 8:58 pm
    ReBoot: You don`t need to repeat your posts, in fact that`s a good way for you to get banned for awhile, so cool your jets.

    5cats was of course being satirical, India still stigmatizes people with leprosy, and didn`t effectively start treating people with the disease until the 1980`s.

    So holding India up to be some great pioneer of medicinal treatment is rather false. India still suffers from huge sanitation, water quality, and disease problems.

    Also, I`m refusing to `throw pearls before swine` anymore here. I`ve given references on so many topics before, just for them to be summarily dismissed by ideologues like yourself.

    Had you really wanted genuine debate and had an open mind, I might`ve given you my multiple references, which you could easily find on your own, but are too lazy to do so.

    I`m not going to waste my time and effort on people like you, sorry.
  129. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 9:04 pm
    The etymology of the word Hospital comes from the french word Hostel which means guest house, and the Latin word for stranger Hospes, before then the word Hospital didn`t even exist.

    Are you seriously arguing that because a modern English word has an etymology that can be traced back to Latin, the thing the word describes can`t have existed before Christianity?

    i) Latin predates Christianity by an unknown length of time, but certainly no less than 750 years.

    ii) Tracing a word back to Latin does not mean the true origin of the word is in Latin. Latin wasn`t made up without any connection to earlier languages. The trail so often stops at Latin because there`s so little writing from earlier.

    iii) The origin of a word in modern English does not show that the concept can`t predate that word. e.g. `fish` can only be traced back to O.E. - does that mean no fish existed before ~500 AD?
  130. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 9:16 pm
    Perhaps that knowledge irks you, perhaps I pressed a `hot button` of yours, but what it comes down to is your hate of everything Christian. I`m sorry you grew up in a war torn country, over religion, perhaps if Ireland had been peaceful things would be different.

    But that`s no reason to deny the source of western societal ethics, or hate on Christians like me.
    Why, thank you for that armchair psychoanalysis of my mind-state, Crakrjak.

    I don`t hate Christians, I don`t hate Christianity. Christianity *has* done a lot of good in this world.
  131. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 9:17 pm
    YOU are the one that states that everything good in the world comes from Christianity (an easy claim, everything good that happened since 1AD was because of Christ was born, and that everything bad comes from outside). YOU are the one that repeatedly posts links to islamophobic hate-sites. YOU are the one who claims that homosexual couples shouldn`t be allowed to be married. YOU are the one who claims that atheists are amoral people motivated only by greed. I could go on to denial of scientific, observable realities such as evolution and climate change, but you don`t believe in them either. Because the Bible Tells You SoHeck, you even told us that all atheist Doctors are motivated by greed. When I pointed out that my cousin is an entirely atheist doctor, you do a u-turn and ascribe her empathy and sympathy to Christian ethics. F*ck.
  132. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 9:17 pm
    I can get along swimmingly with people with different world-views than mine. What I can`t abide is bare-faced lies and dishonesty, which you shovel out in spadeloads.

    CJ, I`m sorry to say this, but you`re a dick. Not because you`re a Christian, but because you`re a dick. And I will continue to "step to you" as the cool kids say, every time you say something dick.

    Anyways, old thread is old. Peace out.
  133. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 9:18 pm
    About the parable of the Good Samaritan, which you cite as proof that compassion didn`t exist before.

    It was primarily a positive story about a Samaritan, people whom Jews (i.e. Jesus` audience) were generally hostile towards.

    It was not primarily a story about compassion for strangers. It was a positive portrayal of a Samaritan *because compassion for strangers was already seen as being a virtue*.

    In short, the parable you quote disproves your own argument.

    There were some examples of German soldiers in WW2 showing mercy and compassion to Allied soldiers (and vice versa, but that`s not relevant to this point).

    Citing one of those examples 60 years ago would have been similar to the parable of the good Samaritan when it was first told.

    Does that mean that compassion and caring for others was invented by German soldiers in WW2? Or by the people who reported those incidents?
  134. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 9:25 pm
    Angilion: I said you were arguing that EVERYBODY is a sociopath.

    Mankind`s base nature is to be selfish and clannish, not empathetic toward strangers. That is a historical fact, but that doesn`t mean that people are born sociopaths. Sociopathy is learned behavior based on environment and upbringing.

    You`re arguing that compassion and care for others was invented by Christianity

    No, once again you are wrong, I`ve merely noted that Christianity has been the driving force for western societal morals and ethics, including medical empathy and sympathy for strangers.

    You are jumping to conclusions again, trying to put words in my mouth to demonize me.

    As for your reference to the `Dark Ages` as being a lack of historical knowledge that is only partly true, the term had ecclesiastical (light-versus-darkness imagery) meaning and encompassed the period of time during the bubonic plague as well.
  135. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 9:36 pm
    davymid: YOU are the one that repeatedly posts links to islamophobic hate-sites.

    I`ve linked to sites made by apostates of islam, criticizing it, those are not `Hate Sites`. they expose radical islam for what it is a hateful intolerant sexist religion.

    YOU are the one who claims that homosexual couples shouldn`t be allowed to be married.

    Not true, I just don`t want them using/abusing the term marriage, I have nothing against civil unions, I just don`t want to see churches being sued for holding to their ideals and not performing ceremonies for them.

    YOU are the one who claims that atheists are amoral people motivated only by greed.

    I posed the original question to get you to see the source of your morals and ethics came from Christianity forming western society as we know it today.
  136. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 9:45 pm
    Davy

    you don`t believe in them either. Because the Bible Tells You So

    I`ve never used the bible to argue against bad science, so you`re lying on me there.

    I never called your cousin unethical, again I posed the question "What is there to motivate an atheist doctor or nurse, to give the best care, besides money ?"

    If you don`t believe in religious based morals and ethics, thus rejecting western societal norms, then there really is nothing from preventing an athiest doctor from creating his/her own morality and ethics, then setting aside all empathy and sympathy for their patients.

    Yes the question was provocative, it was meant to be to make you see the origin of western morality and ethics that you currently use in your life.
  137. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 9:57 pm
    CJ, the source of my morals and ethics are entirely personal to me, and have nothing to do with Christianity, I assure you.

    I am a good person because it`s the right thing to do. It`s innate. Sorry to tell you, it has nothing to do with Christianity, no matter how much you wish that was the case, and it sure as hell didn`t begin exactly 2011 years ago at the birth of a kid.

    Anyways, old thread is old. I`ll see you on the next one Crakrjak.
  138. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 10:04 pm
    Angilion: [quote">It was not primarily a story about compassion for strangers.[/quote">

    I urge you to go back and re-read Luke 10: 25-37 Link

    It specifically states in Jesus` own words, "Love your neighbor as yourself." and when asked who the neighbors were, Jesus` then starts the Good Samaritan Parable. So the answer is that strangers are our neighbors as well ,and that we are to "Go out and do likewise" as the Samaritan did.

    As for German soldiers showing mercy in WW2 that`s not surprising, many didn`t ascribe to the governmental system they lived under and were powerless to change, most all German men were conscripts forced to fight in the war.

    Your question about it is irrelevant because Christ`s commandment to "Love your neighbor as yourself." predates WW2 by 19
  139. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 10:11 pm
    davymid: Again, "the right thing to do" in your eyes is based on the environment you were brought up in.

    Had you been brought up in a slum, with drug dealers, pimps, and gangsters in abundance, it`s likely what you believe is "the right thing to do" would be entirely different then it currently is.

    Laws don`t make moral and ethical people, and they aren`t born with them innately either, Society and environment makes people know "the right thing to do".
  140. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    November 30, 2011 at 11:28 pm
    Had you been brought up in a slum, with drug dealers, pimps, and gangsters in abundance, it`s likely what you believe is "the right thing to do" would be entirely different then it currently is.
    I *was* brought up in a slum. You have no f*cking idea what you`re talking about.
  141. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 12:46 am
    Had you really wanted genuine debate and had an open mind, I might`ve given you my multiple references

    Well let me tell you right now Crakr i like a genuine debate and i would legitimately like to see your sources. if you give me a source besides the bible then i will give it due consideration.


    "I`ve given references on so many topics before"

    is that any reason not to give them to the new guy? don`t lump me in with all the `ideologues`

    See, unlike you i AM open minded. in fact i have even read the bible and talked about it with people more knowledgeable about its message than me in hopes of finding faith.
    Essentially your response to me boiled down to "you`re not worth my time" which reads as "i`ve got nothing, engage face-saving mode"

    And i won`t gte banned for similar posts, only if i`m trolling which honest to god is what i thought you were doing for the longest time
  142. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 1:03 am
    I never called your cousin unethical, again I posed the question "What is there to motivate an atheist doctor or nurse, to give the best care, besides money ?"

    Here`s some classic Crakr @ss covering. what you actually said was:

    What is there to motivate an atheist doctor or nurse, to give the best care, besides money ? Answer, Nothing

    So in fact you actually did call his cousin unethical. it was not an open question to provoke thought because you answered it.
    Way to stick to your guns bro.

  143. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 1:05 am
    This next is off topic so feel free to ignore it if you don`t have enough `pearls` for all the `swine` but i wonder what you mean when you refer to gay couples `using/abusing the term marriage`
    i understand the traditional definition of the word involves a man and a woman but like the Hippocratic oath that you mentioned is no longer used, that definition is obviously outdated.
    Same-sex couples abuse the hell out of the sanctity of marriage but they are a man and a woman so they have they right.
    Correct me if i`m putting words in your mouth in order to demonize you, i apologize.
    I await your response which is sure to be an exercise in double-speak and condescension.
  144. Profile photo of ccalhoun86
    ccalhoun86 Male 18-29
    76 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 1:12 am
    Church on Sunday - failing to recognize the true day of the sabbath (commandment 4). You worship a cross(2nd commandment). History speaks volumes about how well you guys can obey "thou shall not kill" (commandment 6). The church stands for and supports hatred. The new testament says absolutely nothing regarding homosexuality or marriage between homosexuals, yet you cling to your belief that it`s immoral. I could understand if you were Jewish, as they dispute the new testament and still follow the eye for an eye destructive narcissistic god that destroyed the world with a giant flood. The only thing I take with any positive influence from Christianity is the teaching of good will and love towards all man, but face it, there is an inherent desire in MOST people to be kind, courteous, and beneficial to his fellow man. That`s human evolution, human nature, not Christianity. You demonize all belief systems and cultures outside of Christianity by claiming it to be the source of goo
  145. Profile photo of ccalhoun86
    ccalhoun86 Male 18-29
    76 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 1:39 am
    This is off topic, but I thought the rest of the world kind of hated America. If we`re such an amazing positive beam of christian love and empathy, why would the rest of the planet loathe us? Maybe because a high percentage of our population has this insane egotistical attitude that we have the best country, the only true religion, and all the guns and missiles to back it up? Seriously, the worst way to try and win an argument is to cite information widely regarded as false, incomplete, and edited numerous times(the bible). I prefer fact, not hearsay or fairytale. Christianity contributed, but created nor is the origin of ANYTHING. Many religions existed before Christianity and used the same symbols, their prophets spoke the same prophesies, performed the same miracles. Christianity is a recycled religion, contrived of myths, figures, and ideas dating back centuries before it`s existence. Open your mind.
  146. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 1:52 am
    ReBoot: you actually did call his cousin unethical.
    No I didn`t.

    Evidently you didn`t read this in my post below.
    "If you don`t believe in religious based morals and ethics, thus rejecting western societal norms, then there really is nothing from preventing an athiest doctor from creating his/her own morality and ethics, then setting aside all empathy and sympathy for their patients."

    That`s quite a bit different then being "unethical" that`s having malleable morals and ethics. Making up your own ethics as you go allows you to justify anything you do as being "right". Being "unethical" means you have no ethics at all or just decide to ignore them.

    Same-sex couples abuse the hell out of the sanctity of marriage but they are a man and a woman so they have they right.

    That still doesn`t justify the co-opting of the word marriage to force `gay normalization` onto churches.
  147. Profile photo of Essersmith
    Essersmith Male 18-29
    275 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 7:15 am
    As written in the EULA 4-10-666
    "all thy reason are belong to us"

    This dates back to more than 4.5 billion years ago. Clearly a great iliterate god had a literate however flawed and lesser man write it. Lets all worthship!
  148. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 11:56 am
    Evidently you didn`t read this in my post below.
    "If you don`t believe in religious based morals and ethics, thus rejecting western societal norms, then there really is nothing from preventing an athiest doctor from creating his/her own morality and ethics, then setting aside all empathy and sympathy for their patients.

    lol i actually did. you`ll notice that this is a much later post and an example of your backtracking after it became clear to you that your previous point was invalid, evinced by the fact that you dropped your `Answer. Nothing`
    from the quote in order to make it seem as though you had been trying to make a different point.
    you really do weasel like a champion Crakr.
    Also you`re assuming that by rejecting christianity, you`re rejecting western societal norms which is just not true as many people in this thread have told you. Can you tell me which morals and ethics come exclusively from the bible?
  149. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 12:06 pm
    That still doesn`t justify the co-opting of the word marriage to force `gay normalization` onto churches.

    What`s so special about a word? Answer. Nothing. it`s the meaning of the word that is important and your definition IS outdated.
    As for forcing gay normalization on the churchs.
    1) you may be thinking of a specific example but many gay couples are not at all interested in the church, they just want to be married like anyone else. And Crakr? in this day and age gay IS normal. it`s not the statistical majority but it`s a normal thing and natural. There are almost no black families in my home town but those that we have are still considered normal despite their minority status.
  150. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 12:15 pm

    Could you please speak to ccalhoun86`s point about holding on to prejudice from the old testament? i think you`ll agree that a lot of leviticus is no longer relevant so why do you and many other christians cling to certain tenets? As far as i recal (correct me if i`m wrong) jesus doesn`t come out against gays and i KNOW there`s nothing against gay women ( i guess even god loves a lesbian lol)
    This is an aspect of christianity that has always interested me. how do you know which parts of the old testament to keep and which to give up because they are no longer a valid guide to our modern lives?
  151. Profile photo of Essersmith
    Essersmith Male 18-29
    275 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 2:46 pm
    @ReBoot
    I think its amendable that you debate with crakrjak.
    Sadly what you will realize is that everything boils down to "im right and you`re wrong", he wont admit to this ofcause, but every "discussion" crakrjak has been in (to my knowledge), concerning politics or religion will end like that.
    He will refer to plenty of "facts" and will discount everything you will throw at him.
    Its just more reliable fun to read the sillyness he believes in.
  152. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 3:07 pm
    Essersmith:

    Thanks and your post is an excellent summation of Crakr`s debate tactics. I guess i`m hoping one day he`ll grow up. The one i hate the most is when he won`t give proof because its `not worth his time`
    CrakrJak proof that age =/= maturity
  153. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 3:34 pm
    ReBoot: the `weasel` here is you. It`s evident that your morals and ethics shift with the wind. You watch celebrities on TV and let them decide your ethics for you.

    You don`t have the fortitude to stand up for anything if it isn`t popular or modern, you`re a mass media sheep being fed daily doses of liberal socialist propaganda, which you eagerly lap up.

    You`re too lazy to do any research for yourself and love trying to twist what people like me have to say, Enjoy your virtual lobotomy, you deserve it.
  154. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 3:51 pm
    lol i made you mad. amazing Crakr, how you know so much about me when all my profile says is my name, religious stance and where i live.
    what we`ve got here is a serious case of butthurt goin on. You`ve obviously got nothing to say to my arguments themselves so you put up an entirely ad hominem post. there`s the maturety i was talking about. i realize i attack you too but that`s on the basis of your debate tactics and not about you as a person. way to take the high road

  155. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 4:02 pm

    i guess you think you really stuck it to me but the entire post is so far off the mark it`s laughable.
    Could you point out which parts of my posts make it `evident that my morals and ethics shift with the wind` or that i`m a `mass media sheep`?etc.
    it`s an elegant piece of writing Crakr but you pulled it right out of your @ss

    FYI i don`t watch much tv and i couldn`t care less (nor do i know) what celebrities are saying nowadays. i don`t back stuff because it`s modern or popular but because i believe it is right and/or accurate
    And buddy i don`t twist your words, i quote you directly and call you on your bull which obviously upsets you.
    yur right though, i am lazy to the extent that i would rather let the guy making the claims back his own crap up.
  156. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 4:17 pm
    You complain frequently that people put words in your mouth in order to demonize you.

    Pot: "Kettle, you are black"
  157. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 5:02 pm
    No, once again you are wrong, I`ve merely noted that Christianity has been the driving force for western societal morals and ethics, including medical empathy and sympathy for strangers.

    That is untrue.

    You are jumping to conclusions again, trying to put words in my mouth to demonize me.

    And so is that.
  158. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 5:02 pm

    This is how people like you retain some power and seek to get more. It takes just a few seconds for you to make up whatever claim is most useful to you at the time. It takes far longer to get the evidence and show the claim to be false...and it doesn`t affect you anyway, as you can continue to make the same claim anyway or make up new ones.

    I`ll take just one piece of evidence from this thread. I could, of course, find more. This isn`t even the first.

    It was not until Jesus` parable of the Good Samaritan, in Luke 10: 25-37, that the concept of helping complete strangers, and eventually society at large, was even thought of.

    That was you on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 9:05:07 PM.
  159. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 5:09 pm
    Or how about this?

    And just where do believe human empathy and sympathy came from ? It didn`t come from the Egyptians, Greeks, Early Romans, Carthaginians, Babylonians, Barbarians or the Mongols.

    So please tell me, if it wasn`t from the Judeo-Christian ethic, where did human empathy and sympathy come from ?

    That was from you on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:16:06 PM.

    I`ll state it very clearly, so there`s no doubt about my opinion:

    You make false statements, even about what you have previously written, on an entirely ad hoc basis, dependent solely on what is most useful to you at the time.

    It`s an effective tactic if you reach a wide enough audience (as you can online), for the reason I stated a couple of posts ago - it takes far more time to disprove your statements that it does for you to make them.
  160. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 9:35 pm
    ReBoot & Angillion Neither of you have disproved my arguments, You`ve taken spurious statements by revisionist historians and used them dishonestly.

    The ancient kingdoms treated the poor, disabled and diseased much like rats, they were thought to be being punished by the gods or that evil spirits dwelt within them. That is historical fact, that is just how superstitious and cruel the ancient world was and how it still is in some 3rd world countries. In India the homeless and mentally ill are still treated as `unclean` and, most people still believe, it`s taboo to even go near or touch such a person. Yet you`re going to try and tell me that India invented hospitals and hospice, au contraire!

    There is no use trying to educate either of you, you don`t want to be, you just want to argue against me.

    I`ve made no false statements and clarified my points. All you`ve done is basically call me a liar, repeatedly, with junk arguments.
  161. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 10:17 pm
    There is no use trying to educate either of you, you don`t want to be...

    Aaaand the fallback. it`s no use, it`s not worth my time, you don`t want to learn blah blah blah. I`ve Told you, i would love to be enlightened if you can cite some sources but you just never do. it`s never worth your precious time

    try a new tune Crakr cuz this one is getting old.

    one day you`re going to say "i can see you`re unconvinced and here`s my evidence to support my outrageous claims"
    on that day i will drop dead of a heart attack

    Like i said Crakr, you write real pretty but as they say: a rose by any other name is still a steaming pile of crap

    Neither of you have disproved my arguments

    To be fair i wasn`t trying to disprove your arguments, just pointing out your weasel-style debate tactics and asking you to back up your claims.
    I note also that you didn`t try to deny the fact that you built up your straw man description of me so you
  162. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 10:28 pm
    ...could denounce it. As an aside i really would love to know which parts of my posts gave you all that detailed information about my character. Oh hang on, you`re just going to ignore this because there`s nothing you can say to make it seem that you were right. Moving on.
    You don`t `clerify` you re-word your arguments until they fit with the new stance you`re taking.
    When someone points out you were strait up wrong (eg> the Samaritan argument wherein you stated before that parable no one had any empathy for strangers) you just ignore it. You ignore and you weasel but i can forgive this if only you`ll stop and actually address the points people are making
  163. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 10:36 pm
    I forgot, could you explain what your thing is against gay couples using the term marriage?

    here`s that part again:
    You: using/abusing the term marriage
    Me: What`s so special about a word? Answer. Nothing. it`s the meaning of the word that is important and your definition IS outdated.

    And just let me halt the words:not worth my time, which i know are on the tip of your tongue. Take all the time you need. i am patient
  164. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 10:37 pm
    ReBoot & Angillion Neither of you have disproved my arguments, You`ve taken spurious statements by revisionist historians and used them dishonestly.

    El oh f*cking el. Crakrjak, you could be the original inventor of revisionist history.

    Your stance: "Christianity invented hospitals, and outside of Christianity, sick people were all quarantined and probed as medical curiosities by amoral non-Christian physicians. And modern atheist physicians are only motivated by greed, to boot. Everything good in the world, including morals and ethics, came from Christianity, even if you don`t acknowledge it."

    Everyone else`s stance: "Christian physicians helped cure people, but so did other people of different faiths, including those of no particular faith."
  165. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 10:59 pm
    One link, Crakrjak. Please, one link to demonstrate how all medicinal care before Christianity "treated the poor, disabled and diseased much like rats".

    And sorry, I don`t buy your bullsh*t of "I`ve provided it multiple times before". Link it again, it can`t be that hard.

    Heck, let me try you at your own game.

    "All Christians are child-f*cking pedophiles, and have been since the dawn of time. Only since the invention of democracy have Christians stopped humping children, it`s a historical fact".

    What`s that, you want evidence? I won`t post evidence that all Christians are amoral monsters, I`ve posted that evidence many times before. You can go look it up for yourself. I stand exonerated. You`re just a dishonest revisionist historian if you think otherwise!
  166. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 11:01 pm
    One link, Crakrjak. Please, one link to demonstrate how all medicinal care before Christianity "treated the poor, disabled and diseased much like rats"

    This. oh for the love of god this.

    Everyone else`s stance: "Christian physicians helped cure people, but so did other people of different faiths, including those of no particular faith."

    Just noticed this cuz of davymid`s post. there is literally no one else in this thread who has backed Crakr`s claims or made similar one`s of their own. Not saying that proves definitively that your`re wrong Crakr but it`s certainly telling

  167. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 11:20 pm
    completely unrelated. could somebody PLEASE tell me how to italicize on this thing. lol i`m newb, forgive me.
  168. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 1, 2011 at 11:33 pm
    completely unrelated. could somebody PLEASE tell me how to italicize on this thing. lol i`m newb, forgive me.
    No sweat.

    Go (quote)COPY PASTA HERE(/quote)

    Replace curved parentheses with square quotes, and you`re set.
  169. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 12:27 am
    Awesome! Thanks a lot!
  170. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 12:43 am
    lol i kept getting momentarily confused when i saw my posts. I said THAT? lol
  171. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 12:53 am
    So holding India up to be some great pioneer of medicinal treatment is rather false. India still suffers from huge sanitation, water quality, and disease problems.
    Not that, you know, being colonized and treated as effectively slave labor, then being suddenly left behind with a void in society had anything to do with that...
  172. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 12:55 am
    I might`ve given you my multiple references, which you could easily find on your own, but are too lazy to do so.
    Crakr, in a court case "you could have looked it up yourself" doesn`t count as a valid excuse for withholding evidence.

    Sorry, but you fail.
  173. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 2:46 am
    I`ve made no false statements and clarified my points. All you`ve done is basically call me a liar, repeatedly, with junk arguments.

    You prove my point again.

    You make a false statement (about your own posts, no less).

    I spend the time necessary to prove your statement is false (by re-reading and quoting some of your posts).

    You make up a new false statement.

    You spent a few seconds making it up. I spent ~10 minutes disproving it.

    I`m not sure if you`re a liar. It may be that you manage to convince yourself that whatever you say at any given time is the truth, regardless of how much it goes against the evidence and regardless of how much it contradicts anything else you say.
  174. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 4:55 am
    Link Spam, I doubt you will read them, and if you do you`ll still argue it to death.

    Link 1, Link 2, Link 3, Link 3, Link 4, Link 5
  175. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 4:02 pm
    Nice attempt at ignoring the issue, as usual, but I`m not falling for it.

    None of those links are links to your posts, your statements. That`s the issue at the moment and I`m not going to be sidetracked. I`d be amazed if any of those links are in the slightest bit relevant to the claim you made (that Christianity invented compassion).

    But this thread is now on page 4, so it`s dead and you can move on to making another claim about something else. Maybe I`ll spend the time debunking it, maybe I won`t bother.

    A free bit of advice:

    If you repeatedly state something and then claim you never did, go back and delete the posts in which you stated it in order to conceal the evidence proving your new claim to be false. I`m surprised you haven`t thought of that already - you`re not stupid.
  176. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 4:34 pm
    Angilion: Let`s get this perfectly straight, I said Jesus` Good Samaritan Parable started the Christian ethic of Empathy and Sympathy for strangers.

    I made it VERY CLEAR that people before then were clannish and had empathy and sympathy for those in their group, but not strangers.

    So please quit twisting words.

    And as I predicted you didn`t even bother to look at my links to prove my points, which is why I didn`t even want to bother posting them in the first place.

    Good job on living down to my already low expectations.
  177. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 6:48 pm
    your first link has no apparent bearing on your arguments. in fact it cites several christians responsible for demonizing the ill or deformed. This situation only begins to improve in the Renaissance when people began to pull away from the church and rely more on science

    Your second link is questionable since it contains no sources and is from a catholic site. now that`s not a reason by itself to discount it except that (interested that you seemed to have a point) i looked up some more articles. Some pointed to christianity inventing hospitals and health care (all christian sites) and the rest make reference to various cultures predating or uninfluenced by christianity

    after reading your third link and some others i found myself i will admit that christian institution contributed heavily to hospitals as we know them today


  178. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 7:02 pm
    Did you even read your forth link? it seems to suggest that pre-christian cultures did in fact care for the sick to a larger degree, even using some surprisingly advanced means (eg> fungus to fight bacterial infection)

    your last link explains only that part of christianity`s spread may have been due to they`re care of the ill. that they would have suffered less from plague because they took care of each other and because they provided answers (accurate or not) to the sick, converting them in a time of fear and death
    One link, Crakrjak. Please, one link to demonstrate how all medicinal care before Christianity "treated the poor, disabled and diseased much like rats"

    Only your first link mentions anything like that but this wretched treatment apparently continued into the 1970`s so i don`t know what it was meant to prove
  179. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 7:54 pm
    You`ve managed to prove (to me at least) that christians played a great role in developing modern hospitals. congrats.

    As for proving your stance that everyone before christians were little more than faith healers, you fail kinda hard.
    For your stances on the origin of morality and ethics we`ve still got nothing but maybe you have some more sources for that.

    I`m really proud of your Crakr for finally at least making the attempt to back your claims up. Very refreshing and don`t be discouraged from doing so in the future just because they`re largely spurious.
  180. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 10:19 pm
    ReBoot: The purpose of my fourth link was to reinforce the `clannish nature` and their beliefs and ideas on disease, as misguided as they were rarely they did stumble on something that worked, but that sort of shamanism is not medicine.
  181. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 10:20 pm
    Crakrjak, THANK YOU. Was that so hard? All you had to do was to provide some evidence to back up your claims, you would have saved yourself a lot of grief and venom if you had just done so in the first place.

    Now, I HAVE read your links, and yes, you have changed my view somewhat. I already knew that Christianity has contributed to the advancement of medicinal practices, but your links give me food for thought.

    See? Not everyone who disagrees with aspects of your world-view are diametrically opposed to you. As I stated before, I do NOT hate Christians, or Christianity. If you have some evidence to back up your claims, then just show it. Saying "This is how it was, go look it up for yourself" is bound to get people`s heckles up.
  182. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 10:21 pm
    All I would say is that in your original assertion of "Considering that the very idea of building hospitals and taking care of the sick was a Christian idea..." (which was what I took exception to, besides the assertion that atheist doctors can only possibly be motivated by greed), you linked a wikipedia article on "prehistoric medicine". Prehistoric medicine is not really what we`re talking about here, that was prehistoric, by definition. What is in question is decidely "historic" mediciinal care, both occidental and oriental, which was comtemporaneous with or before Christianity. A better link would have been http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital#History, which demonstrates abundant evidence that Christians didn`t invent hospital care.

    Agree to disagree, with a friendly handshake?
  183. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 10:23 pm
    As for the first link, "Social Viewpoint: Principle of the Least: "For he who is least among you all — he is the greatest." Jesus Christ.. showed compassion for persons with disabilities... Jesus is frequently credited with showing kindness and effecting miraculous cures of those who were lame, blind, and otherwise disabled... Jesus also welcomed those who were poor and disenfranchised and treated them as equals.", is very relevant, as is how people were treated before, "Living conditions for persons with disabilities were brutal during this period. Some people were able to survive through acts of charity or as objects of curiosity, but most were not as fortunate. Intolerance, sickness, and disregard for persons with disabilities often meant death or a very low quality of life. Moral Viewpoint: Early Greeks and Romans valued physical perfection. Appearances mattered. Racial and physical differences were seen as marks of inferiority.
  184. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 10:40 pm
    davymid: That was actually a link I quoted from early on, but it was rather vague about Egyptian and Greek health care, but it does mention that the buildings themselves were `temples`, dedicated to healing gods, not hospitals. Sure you might`ve been able to get a broken nose fixed or a arm bone set, but even early shamans had this basic knowledge, but if the injury got badly infected, gangrene, cellulitis, tetanus, etc.., you were pretty much doomed.
  185. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    December 2, 2011 at 11:10 pm
    "The purpose of my fourth link was to reinforce the `clannish nature` and their beliefs and ideas on disease, as misguided as they were rarely they did stumble on something that worked, but that sort of shamanism is not medicine."


    i think you keep using words like `clannish` and `shamanism` because you think it somehow detracts from what these men were doing. true, their skills and knowledge are not what they are today but it`s obvious that they knew what worked and how to do it if not WHY it worked. how is this not medicine? For the longest time christians had a pretty crap understanding of medicine too, employing treatments that modern doctors might describe as clannish or shamanistic.
    your first link speaks to christians giving better care to people with disabilities than before. what it does not in any way show is that before this time sick people(not the same as people with disabilities) were treated like vermin as you claimed

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