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Category: Science
Date: 09/12/11 01:52 PM

301 Responses to Australopithecus Sediba: A New Species Of Human

  1. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 1:54 pm
    Link: Australopithecus Sediba: A New Species Of Human - A new species of hominin founded and another link is added to the chain.
  2. Profile photo of SlothOfDoom
    SlothOfDoom Male 30-39
    2033 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 2:09 pm
    But...the tides go in and the tides go out!
  3. Profile photo of Rick_S
    Rick_S Male 40-49
    3291 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 2:10 pm
    I`m curious what people will think of us 2,000,000 years from now if all they can find is the remains of someone with a genetic defect. They only have two example fossils, and they know enough to call it a new species. I would always think in the back of my head, what if this were a genetic anomaly?
  4. Profile photo of Crabes
    Crabes Male 30-39
    1285 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 2:17 pm
    cant be 2 million years old earth was created 6000 years ago... its fake
  5. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 2:24 pm
    In other words, they found an unusual looking chimpanzee. Not impressed.
  6. Profile photo of TruTenrMan
    TruTenrMan Male 30-39
    2553 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 2:26 pm
    What?! No computer-rendered image of what they think it looked like? Lame!
  7. Profile photo of yoda141
    yoda141 Male 18-29
    266 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 2:28 pm
    Rick: im sure the paleonthologists thought of that. It`s rare that an individual with a genetic disease survived in the wild and reached adulthood, so they`re betting on that everything anatomically different is an evolved features.
  8. Profile photo of yoda141
    yoda141 Male 18-29
    266 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 2:31 pm
    CrakrJak: Biological Anthropology is not a pick up and play game. It takes a few years of education in the subject to fully appreciate it.
  9. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 2:45 pm
    Yoda: What they are doing is no different than phrenology, a dismissed pseudoscience that has long since been disproved.
  10. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 2:49 pm
    <.< at CrakrJak. I hope are you kidding, right?
  11. Profile photo of yoda141
    yoda141 Male 18-29
    266 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 2:51 pm
    Crackr: im not sure if it`s the same, the fact that it deals with skull and bone size and proportions doesn`t mean it`s phrenology. They use that tool among others to determine whether or not they belonged to the same species, and tentatively build a genealogical tree based also on the date of the fossils, whereas phrenology used it to predict behavioural patterns. it`s the unfounded bridge between biology and psychology which made it pseudoscience.
  12. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 2:56 pm
    Learning is fun!
  13. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:03 pm
    piperfawn: Then please tell me how measuring the bumps on a live humans head, to determine brain function, and the same measuring of a 2 million year old apes head are any different.

    It`s the same crap with a different name, that`s all.
  14. Profile photo of yoda141
    yoda141 Male 18-29
    266 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:10 pm
    Crackrjak: That one uses the data measured to somehow predict something as chaotic and complex as human non-instinctive behavior, and the other one to compare between two or more individuals to determine if they were of the same species or not. Of course the results are tentative, and they may all be malformed apes that progressively look more like humans, but asserting that would be betting against the odds, and all science is tentative anyway, which allows it to revise and correct itself.
  15. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:12 pm
    CrakrJak i don`t know how to answer to your question cause i`m not an anthropologist, but i`m pretty sure that some scientist can. I don`t think that anthropology was born just for fun, the fact that someone is studing this and that there are university that spend time and money on this researches make me think that a way to answer to you exist.
  16. Profile photo of metalhannes
    metalhannes Male 18-29
    144 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:14 pm
    Hey can anyone explain why we are bipedal? Why is standing on two feet better than on four?
  17. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:17 pm
    What they are doing is no different than phrenology, a dismissed pseudoscience that has long since been disproved.

    That`s worth quoting for comedy value.

    You are monumentally ignorant and determined to remain that way. Your devotion to ignorance is oddly impressive, purely for its intensity.

    Unless, of course, you know you`re talking utter bollocks and you`re lying for the sake of propaganda.
  18. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:20 pm
    Yoda & Piper: Cranium size has little to do with how `smart` some creature is, otherwise whales and elephants would be the smartest animals on earth and conversely birds and rodents would be some of the dumbest, yet we know that correlation to not be correct.
  19. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:21 pm
    @metalhannespossible answer
  20. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:21 pm
    I think all this dispute can be cleared by dismissing what Crackr says as nonsense, as usual.

    I would like to see where Sediba fits into the tree.
  21. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:23 pm
    Hey can anyone explain why we are bipedal? Why is standing on two feet better than on four?

    I can think of a couple of possible explanations why nature would select for it during hominid evolution and especially human evolution.

    i) It`s a lot better for using tools if you have specialised limbs for doing so. You can use tools with legs and feet, but not as well as you can with arms and hands.

    ii) It`s useful for a vulnerable ground-based animal living on the plains to be able to see further, see over ground-covering vegetation. Standing upright helps a lot with that.
  22. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:23 pm
    Phrenology is to this as:
    Palm reading is to Physiotherapy.
    Astrology is to Astronomy.
    Bloodletting is to Blood testing.

    Just cos you`re looking in the same place doesn`t mean they`re the same thing.

    Astrology -> "Jupiter is ascending, you are going to get a promotion".
    Astronomy -> "That star is twice the size of ours"

    Palm-reading -> "You`ll have 3 kids".
    Physiotherapy -> "You have arthritis"

    Phrenology -> "You`re a compulsive liar, and good with your hands"
    Anthropology -> "This skull, in my hand, has these properties that differ from humans"
  23. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:24 pm
    Angilion: Then please tell me how Crows & Octopi are able to solve complex puzzles that even chimpanzees can`t ?
  24. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:27 pm
    CrakrJak in the video thay say that the tooths are an evidence that this hominim was using tools to elaborate food and the hands have the right conformation for creating tools, so as you can see the size of skull is not the only way to decide if is a fossil of a hominin or is a fossil of a ape. Science have many ways to reach the solution,science don`t work with dogmas.
  25. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:28 pm
    Cranium size has little to do with how `smart` some creature is, otherwise whales and elephants would be the smartest animals on earth and conversely birds and rodents would be some of the dumbest, yet we know that correlation to not be correct.

    Birds and whales are not closely related. If you knew anything about the subject, you`d know that was important.
  26. Profile photo of metalhannes
    metalhannes Male 18-29
    144 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:29 pm
    @piperfawn thanks.
    @angilion
    That`s what they say in the articles I found too :D . But overall there are just theories noone knows anything for certain.
  27. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:30 pm
    Then please tell me how Crows & Octopi are able to solve complex puzzles that even chimpanzees can`t ?

    Why? There`s no relevance and you have no interest in the answer anyway. Just make up whatever answer you`d like to be right and claim it`s proven truth - that`s what you`ll be doing anyway, so there`s no point me wasting any time looking for an actual reason.
  28. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:35 pm
    Crakr: Octopuses have a larger brain to body ratio than humans.

    Of more relevance however, how chimps solve some problems better than humans?

    Answer: Because you`re missing something.
  29. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:37 pm
    Cajun: He says it right in the video, "it`s showing some of the asymmetries of the human brain....", in other words he`s suggesting it`s semi-human, but what it really suggests is nothing other than what they want it to suggest. They want these skeletons to be thought of as something special to get grant money, in order to get paid themselves.
  30. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:40 pm
    Angilion: This guy says that this skulls asymmetry, aka shape and relative size, are semi-human. But shape and size has little to do with how `smart` a creature is, that`s been proved scientifically.
  31. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:40 pm
    but what it really suggests is nothing other than what they want it to suggest

    Blarg?

    They want these skeletons to be thought of as something special to get grant money, in order to get paid themselves.

    As opposed to furthering the understanding of human evolution? Sorry but that`s an ad hominem. You fail to prove your point.
  32. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:43 pm
    But shape and size has little to do with how `smart` a creature is, that`s been proved scientifically.

    It has a lot more to do with morphology than intelligence. More specifically the change in morphology. So you took the video out of context.
  33. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:46 pm
    Cajun: Show me how the, "the understanding of human evolution", has improved the world even one bit. Has it invented anything ? has it improved us technologically or even socially ?

    It hasn`t, never has, it`s a curiosity that`s all. There are better ways to spend our time and resources then chasing after old bones.
  34. Profile photo of metalhannes
    metalhannes Male 18-29
    144 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:46 pm
    @Angilion This theory is really intriguing:
    Female hominids, restricted by the demands of infant care, spent most of their time gathering fruit and insects over a limited range. Their rather poor nutrition probably accounted for the slow maturation of the young and a low reproduction rate of one child only every four or five years.
    So there could have been an incentive for males to free their hands for carrying food. They could have brought the food back and exchanged it for sex. This could be the basis for some kind of long-term bonding, perhaps the forerunner of modem human mating practices. In this way, the female would spend less time in search of food and more time and energy caring for her young. The children`s chances of survival would improve, and the females would presumably resume ovulating somewhat earlier, and thus be sexually receptive. And the male that had been bringing home the bacon would be the favored mate.
    From piperfawns article.
  35. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:47 pm
    Furthermore as you point out, brain size has nothing to do with intelligence. The better indicators of this are hands and teeth. Another example thanks to you are chimpanzees which have been observed to use tools to dig up ant piles.
  36. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:51 pm
    lol good one metalhannes, i did`nt read all article so thank you for your summary.
  37. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:52 pm
    Cajun: Until you can show me a chimp or similar simian that can create a fire, cook it`s food and hunt with bow/arrow and spear then I believe it`s a worthless pursuit of study. Humans are unique to this world, far removed from whatever bones have been dug up.
  38. Profile photo of yoda141
    yoda141 Male 18-29
    266 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:54 pm
    Crakrjak: The bioinformatics industry is based on the biochemical implications of the theory of evolution, and the most down-to-earth application is trying to be one step ahead of viral strains developping each season. You think those were specially created? Plus, even if it`s a novelty 1) that has no bearing on wether it is an accurate description and explanation of natural phenomena, and 2) in the future it may have even more applications, once we reach enough knowledge as a species to manipulate it. Take the steam engine for instance, the islamic empire invented it but it died as a toy, a novelty, in oblivion, James watt came up with it again, and so industry was born.
    Finally, a good social application of the theory of evolution, along with heliocentricity, the existence of irrational numbers and countless other discoveries and concepts, is showing the world that the church doesn`t have infinite knowledge, but far from it.
  39. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:56 pm
    Show me how the, "the understanding of human evolution", has improved the world even one bit. Has it invented anything ? has it improved us technologically or even socially ?

    So now you have gone from claiming it is a pseudoscience to it "time-waster". With that logic you might as well condemn video games. Furthermore "the key to the past is the key to the future" is a well accepted notion. While I can`t name anything off the top of my from human evolution, evolution ipso facto has helped us understand biology better.
    Evolution has already helped us engineer better crops that are more resilient and have higher yields (for the past 6000+ years or so).
    Evolution has kept our flu vaccinations up to date.
    Evolution has helped understand why there`s a bug called MRSA and so forth.
  40. Profile photo of metalhannes
    metalhannes Male 18-29
    144 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:56 pm
    @piperfawn it`s really interesting because:

    "Bipedalism is a fundamental human characteristic, yet virtually nothing is known about its origins." (Dr. Bernard Wood, paleontologist at the University of Liverpool in England) same article :P
    I think I`ll read more about it tomorrow. I wish I had paid attention in biology D: .
  41. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:56 pm
    CrakrJak also Narvalus are unique. The point is... is because we are humans that we spend time and funds on researching our roots, cause one of the most distinctive attribute for humans is the research of the truth, so i don`t understand why you are so enraged with this kind of study. It`s just our nature that push us to knowledge.
  42. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:58 pm
    Until you can show me a chimp or similar simian that can create a fire, cook it`s food and hunt with bow/arrow and spear then I believe it`s a worthless pursuit of study

    Why do they need to?
  43. Profile photo of hatface
    hatface Male 18-29
    605 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 3:58 pm
    When CrakrJak says something like: "In other words, they found an unusual looking chimpanzee. Not impressed." just move on, people. Your not going to change his mind, or his views.
  44. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 4:00 pm
    metalhannes i`m really happy that this post have created in you a new curiosity... good study!
  45. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 4:05 pm
    it`s a worthless pursuit of study

    Wrong it has helped us create treatments for various genetic disorders.
  46. Profile photo of yoda141
    yoda141 Male 18-29
    266 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 4:10 pm
    Crakrjak:
    Im sorry, i though i was talking to a skeptical person but now i see im dealing with a full blown creationist. I don`t consider myself able to deal with the unreasonably skeptical, and much less in such an uneven playing field in which the scientific side must provide a movie of evolution happening otherwise the othe side automatically wins and god did it
    Do you have a job that requires some sort of technical knowledge? if you had to do an interview of any kind to explain something about it, you`d have to dumb it down to get your point accross, and rely that your interloqutor recognizes his own relative ignorance on the subject against your knowledge. Paradoxically, to recognize your own ignorance on some subject it`s frequently necessary to have a basic knowledge of it, to be able to see what you still have to learn. And that explains why creationists are so confident to dismiss the angular stone of all biological sciences: they don`t know how much they have to learn
  47. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 4:19 pm
    Understanding of human evolution is useful. Obviously.

    For anyone looking.
  48. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 4:23 pm
    yoda & Cajun: I said and specified "Human evolution", Not the study of bio-mechanics, not virology, etc.

    Not one human anthropological study has cured even a single disease, and to suggest it has is an outright lie.
  49. Profile photo of metalhannes
    metalhannes Male 18-29
    144 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 4:25 pm
    :3 thanks piperfawn.
    Lol Jak you crak me up xD
  50. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 4:31 pm
    Baal: You along with others are lumping all of evolution into one, I specified "Human evolution" quite clearly but you decided to post a link to "evolution" in general, which lead the author to include many other disparate sciences not tied to or remotely related to anthropological discovery.
  51. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1610 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 4:36 pm
    human anthropological

    This term is redundant. The prefix `anthro` means human. Physical, or sometimes referred to as biological, anthropology is the study of human evolution, which requires an understanding of bio-mechanics. This field does not deal with curing or preventing disease.
  52. Profile photo of yoda141
    yoda141 Male 18-29
    266 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 4:53 pm
    CrakrJak: ok, one particular field of inquiry hasn`t provided technological uses for what it discovered. But that`s really not what bothers you. What bothers you is that it concerns the oldest question humanity has ever had, who are we and where did we come from, and you like the first answer ever came up with: goddidit. You`re not concerned that some funds, mostly private and almost all not from the U.S anyway, are being spent on it. You just like to think the universe was an engineering feat.
    Nothing is sacred. Questions are not to be protected and silenced, but to be made and answered.
    Don`t worry, it`s not that anybody will punish us if we`re wrong anyway.
  53. Profile photo of defendors87
    defendors87 Male 18-29
    570 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 4:58 pm
    demz be climbin` bones. haha.
  54. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 5:33 pm
    Take the steam engine for instance, the islamic empire invented it but it died as a toy, a novelty, in oblivion, James watt came up with it again, and so industry was born.

    Alexandria wasn`t part of the Islamic empire when the steam engine was invented there. Islam didn`t even exist at the time. Alexandria was a Greek city to begin with, initiated by Alexander and implemented by Ptolemy Soter, who got the Egyptian part of Alexander`s Greek empire. That was 950 years before Islam existed. The steam engine was known there more than 500 years before Islam existed.

    Arabic scholarship had a strong basis in Greek scholarship and there was extensive trade, so even in Arabia there were people who knew of the steam engine long before Islam existed.
  55. Profile photo of Scuzoid
    Scuzoid Male 30-39
    1268 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 6:09 pm
    Does Crakr believe in evolution at all? How old does Crakr believe this planet to be?
  56. Profile photo of OliveHaze
    OliveHaze Female 18-29
    29 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 6:25 pm
    Satan is trying to tempt you!!!!!!
  57. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 6:32 pm
    wow, that`s actually pretty cool. One more part of the evolutionary tree.

    oh, and chimps do hunt with spears. youtube vid
  58. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 6:34 pm
    CrakrJak is a descendant of Neanderthals.
  59. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 7:08 pm
    @CrakrJak: "Cajun: Show me how the, "the understanding of human evolution", has improved the world even one bit. Has it invented anything ? has it improved us technologically or even socially ?

    It hasn`t, never has, it`s a curiosity that`s all. There are better ways to spend our time and resources then chasing after old bones. "


    Uhm.. here goes..

    Evolutionary biology contributes much to our present understanding of life, and it promises also to deepen our understanding of human intelligence... -- Haught, J. F. (2009). THEOLOGY, EVOLUTION, AND THE HUMAN MIND: HOW MUCH CAN BIOLOGY EXPLAIN?. Zygon: Journal of Religion & Science, 44(4), 921-931.


  60. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 7:09 pm
    The palaeoanthropological record also indicates that language is a recently evolved phenomenon. This suggests that linguistic approaches in ethnobiology are likely to provide only a partial understanding of how humans perceive, classify, and engage with the natural world. -- Mithen, S. (2006). Ethnobiology and the evolution of the human mind. Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute, 1245-61.
  61. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 7:11 pm
    The article focuses on future possibilities in human brain evolution. It examines cognitive possibilities as well as the cyborgisation of the human brain. It also discusses nanotechnology and virtual realities. Moreover, it emphasizes the transformative impact of the growth in biotechnologies on human species. -- Saniotis, A. (2009). Future Brains: An Exploration of Human Evolution in the 21st Century and Beyond. World Future Review, 1(3), 5-11.
  62. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 7:12 pm
    There you go.. portions from 3 separate scientific journals, all peer reviewed, and scholarly. This is how evolutionary biology contributes to the field of psychology, which is my science. I cannot speak for other scientists regarding your absurd claim that evolutionary biology does nothing for mankind.
  63. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 7:13 pm
    Sorry, that was 4 articles, you will find the APA citation for each, should decide to look them up and broaden your horizons.
  64. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 7:23 pm
    I should clarify.. I am a Christian, I just don`t quite understand how understanding evolution either confirms or denies the existence of God. I am also a scientist. I practice, study, and contribute to the field of psychology. Psychology has gained a lot through the understanding of evolution. Primarily in the areas of cognitive neuroscience, sensation and perception, and understanding mental disorders and behaviors.

    Gaining this understanding of the ever evolving human mind has nothing to do with one`s faith. That is were both Christian`s, like Crakrjak, and anti-theists, like many of you on this thread, make the most basic and idiotic assumption.

    The two are not related. Faith and Science have nothing to do with one another, nor do they disprove one another. Anyone who tries to use either to disprove the other is both juvenile, and ignorant.
  65. Profile photo of cuthere2
    cuthere2 Male 30-39
    317 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 7:24 pm
    "CrakrJak is a descendant of Neanderthals."

    Ohhhhh the irony and ignorance demonstrated in this statement... Wow!
  66. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 7:30 pm
    @Crakr: Until you can show me a chimp or similar simian that can create [..."> cook it`s food...

    Here you go:

    Bonobos: Cooking
  67. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 7:36 pm
    @elkingo, "Christianity" is not merely a belief in a deity. It is a religion based on the teachings of Jesus, who claimed to be the son of God. If you are a scientist wouldn`t that indeed disprove your stated religion?
  68. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 7:39 pm
    @madest: How so? What exactly about being scientific disproves Christianity?
  69. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 7:46 pm
    Btw, here is a list of famous Christian scientists:

    Francis Bacon
    Johannes Kepler
    Galileo Galilei
    René Descartes
    Blaise Pascal
    Isaac Newton
    Gregor Mendel
    Georg Cantor
    Sir Robert Boyd
    Just to name a few.. there is a quite extensive list.
  70. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 7:54 pm
    Uh everything? Noah? Moses? Adam? Eve? Talking burning bush? Water walking? The list is long... If you ever met a scientist/scientolgist? Would you think him capable? Because I have my doubts about you. Sorry.
  71. Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 7:55 pm
    CrakrJak is a God-bot. There is no point is arguing with him. Evolution happened, the rest of us know it. Ignore the fool.
  72. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 8:02 pm
    Oh Madest... How silly of you.

    First.. there is some scientific evidence to prove Noah: Polystrate Fossils. Although, I am not geologist.. perhaps Davy would care to discuss that.

    Moses.. hmm.. tough one there eh? Egyptians did not record lost battles. So, it would be tough to argue his existence.

    Adam and Eve.. Well, wouldn`t it make more sense to think outside norms? The Bible states that Adam and Eve were the first two people created. It did not say that they were the only people created. How did people come to inhabit Nod? Caanan?

    Water walking.. The man was the son of God. Walking on water seems like a far easier thing to conceive when you believe the aforementioned bit of faith.

    When I practice science, I leave my faith at the door, and then pick it up on the way out. Which is what I would expect of any athiest, scientologist, Muslim, Buddhist, etc etc etc. It is important to approach science with an unbiased opinion, is it not?
  73. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 8:08 pm
    The only problem with religion and science is if you take religion literally. as in, the earth was LITERALLY created in 6 days, or that the earth is literally 6000 years old. that god created adam and eve exactly as they are at the beginning of the world. If you take it as stories and lessons, you don`t have a problem. It`s when you say it really happened that science has to go "wait a second"
  74. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 8:10 pm
    @Serpentchick

    The Bible also says a day is as a thousand years to the Lord. The Bible really offers no definitive answer as to how old the Earth is.
  75. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 8:19 pm
    Well sir I don`t think you are "Christian". Call me a fool but I`m pretty sure you know that Darwin was correct and the global placement of species disprove Noah. Let`s just ignore the fossilized remains of dinosaurs and assume that the people who wrote the Bible were indeed smarter than modern man. And you are their scientist. Now put hyperbole aside and wrap that scientific brain around the logic of an invisible man in the sky who popped into existence all alone in the dark and created everything in the universe and rested on the 7th day... Immaculate conception? Come come now.
  76. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 8:23 pm
    @Madest -- God is a scientist. He also likes to perplex man.
  77. Profile photo of snack1928
    snack1928 Male 18-29
    35 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 8:26 pm
    I am a Christian, but I also try to be scientific about everything. For me, God created the universe with apparent age. He created Adam and Eve as fully grown adults. So to me, the earth is however old scientists say, because for all the data they`ve collected, that what the evidence says. So I take accepted facts/theories of science and change my beliefs. I also think God created the universe with the light from other galaxies and stars already hitting the earth. As for evolution, I think God created everything and made laws of biology and physics and stuff and then just let it go.
  78. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 8:31 pm
    Also Madest, the Bible was recorded by man, to be a book of morals and principals. It was not intended to be a science text, medical text, history book, or any of the other things that modern man want it to be.
  79. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 8:33 pm
    That`s basically what I said, elkingo, take it as lessons and not as a strict, literal sense. If you take it as lessons and stories, then there isn`t a problem. If you take it as a history book, you`re going to run into lots and lots of problems
  80. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 8:37 pm
    Yup. I agree with you on that Serpentchick. =) Also, mankind is fallible. Nothing we do in the field of science will either confirm or deny the existence of God. It is called "faith" for a reason.

    I have faith that God exists, and His son died for my sin.

    I believe that science will benefit mankind.

    There is a difference between faith and belief that the two extreme parties that get in these flame wars simply cannot understand for whatever reason.
  81. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 8:39 pm
    It was not intended to be a science text, medical text, history book
    How do you know that? Did you read the minds of the ancient zealots?
  82. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 8:43 pm
    @LazyMe484 I have a degree in Religious Studies, and a degree in History as well as my degree in Psychology.

    I know that is was written as a moral code through hours and hours and hours of study.

    However, my faith tells me this also in the Word:

    1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    John seemed to believe that the Bible was written so that we may know God.
  83. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 8:46 pm
    the Bible was recorded by man, to be a book of morals and principals.
    ----------------
    No. It was a book of fiction written by uneducated man who didn`t understand the world around them. None of the science books you were tasked to study were works of fiction. Why would you have "faith" in that? I`ll ask you again, what would you think of a scientologist who claimed to be a scientist?
  84. Profile photo of ledzeppeloyd
    ledzeppeloyd Male 18-29
    2385 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 8:52 pm
    dear creationists...
    no evidence? on the contrary.
    atheists win
  85. Profile photo of ledzeppeloyd
    ledzeppeloyd Male 18-29
    2385 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 8:55 pm
    @elkengo
    issac newton believed in alchemy too
  86. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:01 pm
    elkingo: I do believe things adapt, I don`t believe they make a jump to another species, aka speciation.

    I believe many of the classifications of new species are in error, Finches are finches no matter where you find them, if they can still breed with one another and have viable offspring they are the same species. Unfortunately many animals like those have been named different species solely based on isolation or distance from one another and then that misclassification itself is used to try and `prove` evolution.

    In short, adaptation does not prove evolution and no species has been sufficiently shown to jump over and become a whole new species.
  87. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:10 pm
    @Madest "It was a book of fiction written by uneducated man who didn`t understand the world around them."

    Stop poisoning the well.


    "what would you think of a scientologist who claimed to be a scientist?"
    This is simply "post hoc ergo propter hoc" Which means, your temporal cause in argument appears to be integral to causality. Basically, you are committing a logical fallacy in assuming that the religious beliefs someone else should impact my own. To answer your question, I would simply not care what faith they are if they contribute to the scientific field, and why should I? Not the other way around.
  88. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:15 pm
    Goddammit, and just as I was about to go to bed.
    First off, I’d like to address @Elkingo: “The two are not related. Faith and Science have nothing to do with one another, nor do they disprove one another. Anyone who tries to use either to disprove the other is both juvenile, and ignorant.” I agree with you. First off, I’m an atheist. But I was once a born-again Christian in my teens. I’m also a professional scientist (PhD Geology). But yes, you’re right, science can no more disprove God than faith can prove His Existence. If you’re a faithful Christian who believes that God set the scientific laws of the Universe in place, awaiting to be discovered, then no beef with you. I think that’s wrong, but whatever helps you sleep at night (no disrespect meant). Just IMO.
  89. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:15 pm
    @CrakrJak

    I believe that God used evolution to create life. There is evidence within our brains that support evolution. Ever asked yourself why you can hear underwater, but you cannot smell underwater? Perhaps it is because the human mind evolved.
  90. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:15 pm
    Now to address @Madest: “CrakrJak is a descendant of Neanderthals.” F*ck sake dude, you’re meant to be a Mod. That’s just a cheap insult, and it’s not even funny. We’re meant to police dat sh*t, not instigate it. FFS.
  91. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:16 pm
    And onto @Crackrjak: Please forgive me for not taking you very seriously on matters of science. I’ve spent the last 15 years (3 as a BSc 1st Class Honours student, 4 getting my PhD in Earth Science, 8 working for Shell finding oil in frontier basins) studying earth science. That included palaeoanthropology. Dude, there’s no way of saying this without coming across as a dick, but what have you got? A minor degree in computer programming? I have no idea, but I’m guessing it’s Kent Hovind-esque.
  92. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:16 pm
    But I will say this, I can tell everything I need to know about you from the way you present yourself. All I need to do is google something like “Christian Conservative Views”, and I know everything about you. Evolution is a lie? Check. Anthropogenic Global Warming is a lie? Check. Abortion should be banned in all cases, even in rape and incest? Check. Gay Marriage should be banned across the board? Check. I see you coming before you’ve even crested the horizon. I’ve explored my own views on reality CJ, have you? Or are you just reciting the same bullsh*t that is fed to you on various pamphlets?
  93. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:16 pm
    Crakr, forgive me if I give you a hard time on my home turf of science (e.g, palaeoanthropology). Arguing with you on human evolution is fruitless. You don’t believe in evolution, period. You’ve been indoctrinated that way. It’s as pointless as discussing Newtonian Physics with someone who doesn’t believe in Gravity. Like Evolution, it’s only a theory after all.
  94. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:17 pm
    Hahahaha.. Hi Davy.. didn`t mean to piss you off by keeping you awake. But, yes.. that is a crude depiction of how I believe. I just find it more constructive to never intermingle faith and science.
  95. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:17 pm
    Finally: “Polystrate Fossils. Although, I am not geologist.. perhaps Davy would care to discuss that.” Polystrate Fossils are rare in the extreme, mostly the mandate of tin-foil-hat-wearing pseudoscientists, and the vast majority can be explained by thrust-faulting in extremely tortuous geological areas.
    I for one, will recant everything I know about evolution if you show me a fossil bunny in the Cretaceous. Seriously, that’s all it will take. But I doubt it will happen. And if it does, I’ll give you all a blow-job.
  96. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:17 pm
    madest and other atheists wish to use science as a limitation of God. The problem with that is, there are at least 4 different sets of `laws` of physics based in the size of the objects involved. In trying to `unify` those sets of laws even more exotic rules have been devised to the point now that pretty much anything is possible.

    If God is all-powerful he has no limitations and doesn`t have to follow any scientific theories or rules to do what he wants.
  97. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:18 pm
    Much love, Elkingo. I just ranted on Word and then copy-pasta`d as per the 1000 character limit.
  98. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:21 pm
    LMAO! If I did find such a bunny (however, highly unlikely since I don`t study geology)... I would have to decline your offer of a blow job.
  99. Profile photo of lyonartime
    lyonartime Male 18-29
    260 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:21 pm
    *(slow clap for Davymid)*
  100. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:30 pm
    crakr, the thing about science is we don`t know everything, but that doesn`t mean we shouldn`t keep trying to learn. And as for speciation, or what defines a species, it is NOT just what can mate and make fertile offspring. Many ducks can actually mate interspecies, the problem is that their...junk doesn`t fit together. So they don`t mate. And you`re right, how DARE scientists believe in speciation, something that takes millions of years, without having documented a case of a bunny turning into a whale! or, you can learn that after adaptation and adaptation, things become less and less able to mate. What defines species is a subject STILL being decided in the biological world, just like what defines genus, family, order, etc. Take some classes in evolution before you decide what is and isn`t known about it
  101. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:33 pm
    On an unrelated note: I just updated my profile.
  102. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:34 pm
    davymid: You think you know me based on some website ? Really ? Sorry, but first off you have me wrong on at least few accounts you just listed.

    #1 I don`t believe abortion should be banned for victims of rape or incest.

    #2 I don`t have a problem with gays having `civil unions`, equal in rights to marriage, I have a problem with them usurping the word marriage and I believe I`ve made that point very clear.

    #3 If it`s one thing I`ve learned in life it`s not to be condescending to others based on their level of education, There are different kinds of intelligence and just because someone has "Phd" next to their name doesn`t make them more intelligent than the farmer that grows their food or the mechanic that fixes their car.
  103. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:36 pm
    crakr, so I suppose you`d be perfectly OK with the mechanic performing open heart surgery on you, as he`s "just as intelligent" on the subject? OR, will you trust that PhD`s means that there was years of study in that subject, and they should usually be taken as an authority on that subject?
  104. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:38 pm
    @Serpentchick I wouldn`t let a PsyD (Doctor of Psychology) work on my car. Does that mean Crakr has a valid point?
  105. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:39 pm
    I said IN THAT SUBJECT, damnit >.< A mechanic is better at car stuff, and a PhD in geology will know more about fossils than a mechanic will
  106. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:41 pm
    Haha ; ) You forget.. I am a psych student.. We measure intelligence quite interesting. I think the better point is what you are stating..

    Mechanics might be really intelligent, but that doesn`t make them geologists. Nor does it make a Psychologist a geologist either.

  107. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:44 pm
    I was quoting crakr with the term intelligence anyways.
    But it wasn`t the scientific definition, just the common usage
  108. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:44 pm
    I know.. but we have to be annoyingly specific, because CrakrJak is trying to make some sort of point regarding intelligence, and it was somewhat necessary to recklessly define what a specialist is, and what intelligence is.

    Hahaha. I amuse myself at times. =)
  109. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:48 pm
    As a side note, I think this is ridiculously interesting as it`s evidence of the effect of our increasing reliance on tool use through time. A stage where our brains were a bit different, we were walking a bit better, and we were using tools a bit more. One more slide in the flipbook of human evolution ^_^
  110. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:48 pm
    Serpentchick: I know more about the theory of evolution than you may think, How is it that I know the substantial holes in the theory and can discuss it in detail ? I can assure you no pamphlet can offer than much information in just a few pages.

    Chance and nature alone can not possibly account for all the diversity of the worlds fauna.

    "Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graded organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory." - Charles Darwin, Origin of Species

    Are you willing to call Darwin himself a anti-evolutionist based on his own skepticism ?
  111. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:50 pm
    I`m saying darwin didn`t know everything. and since darwin still believed in his theory (note, SCIENTIFIC theory, not half-brained idea theory). also, I`d LOVE to hear about these glaring holes. the ones that no scientist I`ve ever heard of ever believes exists.
  112. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:51 pm
    Let me answer this one..

    @CrakrJak.. you don`t really know the substantial holes in the theory.. you know what you have read on websites that aren`t scholarly in the least. They basically are summations of what "experts" state in the field.

    For example: Anyone can google psychology and think they understand CBT. I have spent over 3 years learning it, and over 2 years practicing it. I am more of an expert on the subject because it is not a hobby after work, it is my passion. It is science, and I spend a great deal of time doing it.

    In the same respects, the people with PhD`s in Biology are going to know and understand more about evolution than you or I. I can google the holes in it also, but that doesn`t make me an expert or a hobbyist.
  113. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:52 pm
    and you have to understand, evolution does not go smoothly from onestage to another, sometimes there are jumps, sometimes there are thousands of possibilities and only one makes it, sometimes the branch splits 5 ways. Evolution is not neat and tidy, but NO actual biological scientist disbelieves in evolution. Again, there are more scientists named steve that believe in evolution, than scientists at all that don`t.
  114. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:54 pm
    I just graduated with a degree in integrated biology. I have the diploma and everything, came like a week ago. Did you spend 4 years studying under some of the best scientific minds on the subject, plus learning that without the "theory" of evolution, biology as a whole would, infact, not be a whole? it makes all the bits of biology make sense. it`s like finding the higgs boson of biology, it makes it all click
  115. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:55 pm
    10,000 websites =/= 1 scholarly, peer reviewed scientific journal.

    Unless you like to pay out hundreds of dollars, you don`t have access to scholarly, peer reviewed scientific journals.
  116. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:55 pm
    Serpentchick: I specifically said "Different KINDS of intelligence", There are artists considered geniuses in their field, that doesn`t mean that they would be good at house painting. Some of the smartest people in the world do not have a `Phd` next to their name, nor do they want one. Conversely some of the dumbest people on earth, in terms of common sense, whom I call educated idiots, attempt to condescend to others based solely on their academic letters.
  117. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:57 pm
    yes, but you are saying that they don`t know what they`re talking about IN THEIR FIELD OF STUDY. I`m not talking about people being good at one thing and not good in another, I`m talking about people spending years studying, working with, something, and you saying your mechanic understands it better. Unless your mechanic spent 10 years studying geology, and then another 20 in the field writing papers, he does not, in fact, know more than a current PhD does on the subject. Don`t compare ability to know not to lick an outlet, with knowledge of a specific subject.
  118. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:58 pm
    *sigh* I do kinda miss my school`s access to thousands of scholarly journals. It was so interesting
  119. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 9:59 pm
    @CrakrJak, "Different KINDS of intelligence"

    I still don`t quite think you even understand the basic tenants of what intelligence quotient is, or how to measure it.

    Hmm.. how to explain this..

    You may have the most intelligent person in the world.. smarter than Einstein! If that person hasn`t studied a field, contributed to the field, and received criticism from the field`s leading peers... that intelligence has nothing to do with whatever you are discussing.

    In this case, you are by far, not an expert in biology. It really has nothing to do with how intelligent you are.
  120. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:02 pm
    See, what I love about evolution, easily one of my favorite subjects, is the utter simplicity of it. The beauty in how life changes over time, Natural selection leading to sexual selection, leading to flowers that pretend to be female bees. It`s outrageously simple. You live and breed, or you don`t. That`s it. You`re right that we don`t have all our exact tree branches worked out, but that part is the only "theory" part of evolution. The natural selection part, the speciation, the fundamental processes of evolution, those aren`t really theories anymore. there`s minor tweekings to be made to the details, but we know it`s right
  121. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:03 pm
    serpentchick: I`d LOVE to hear about these glaring holes. the ones that no scientist I`ve ever heard of ever believes exists.

    That`s likely because any scientist that proposes a difference to current evolutionary theory is immediately outcast and shunned, no matter what evidence they`ve discovered. The current scientific establishment protects Darwin as if he`s sacrosanct.
  122. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:06 pm
    so...you`re basically a conspiracy theorist. the scientific community *knows* there are problems with the theory, but they refuse to admit it? wow. that`s...really, REALLY stupid. Evolution is NOT a complicated subject to understand. It`s one that can be seen, easily. It`s one that there is SO MUCH proof for, that the only reason a scientist would be cast out is because they think up is down and red is blue. It`d actually be WORSE than saying we don`t actually exist, cause there`s more proof for that, than there is against evolution.
  123. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:08 pm
    elkingo: IQ tests could not possibly accurately measure the genius of a Mozart, DaVinci, or Michaelangelo. There is much more to intelligence than just a number.
  124. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:09 pm
    And I still wouldn`t want mozart to be doing my open heart surgery. I`d totally kill to have davinci as my mechanic though. He`d make my car kickass
  125. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:12 pm
    CrakrJak.. Guess what.. you are wrong again:

    I randomly searcher evolution of leg veins.. in less than 5 seconds.. I found 426 articles on leg vein evolution.. lets look at treatments for them:

    article 1: Minimally invasive treatments for bothersome leg veins. (2011). Harvard Women`s Health Watch, 18(8), 4-6
    States that Spider veins, reticular veins,
    and small varicose veins can be treated with a laser applied
    to the surface of the skin.

    Article 2: GOLDMAN, M. P. (2010). My Sclerotherapy Technique for Telangiectasia and Reticular Veins. Dermatologic Surgery, 361040-1045.
    States that an incompetent saphenofemoral
    junction (SFJ), must be treated first.


    Here we have two different views that are based on evolutionary medical theory. They oppose one another. We don`t "kick out" people whom disagree with us. The scientific community simply doesn`t work that way.
  126. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:13 pm
    @CrakrJak.. IQ tests could not possibly accurately measure the genius of a Mozart, DaVinci, or Michaelangelo. There is much more to intelligence than just a number.

    And you know this because you spent how many years again in the field of psychology? More specifically, what is your background in tests and measurement?
  127. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:15 pm
    just wanna get this out there: you`re awesome elkingo ^_^ I`d high rate your comments if I could :P
  128. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:16 pm
    *tips hat* I do what I can. ^_^
  129. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:20 pm
    elkingo: That`s because leg vein theory is not likely to `upset the applecart`, so to speak. If either theory would, in fact, throw doubt on the larger theory of evolution it would very quickly be disposed of, no matter what evidence there was supporting it.

    Darwinism has become a philosophy and any perceived heretics are dealt with harshly.
  130. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:22 pm
    And I still wouldn`t want mozart to be doing my open heart surgery. I`d totally kill to have davinci as my mechanic though. He`d make my car kickass

    He`d probably be able to do some heart surgery, too. His knowledge of anatomy was way ahead of his time and he knew the structure of the heart, the way in which blood moved inside it, etc.

    I recently watched a recreation of a glider he invented. It worked. Harder to fly than a modern hanglider, but it worked.

    An astonishing polymath.
  131. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:23 pm
    Examples? or are you just going to go on continuing to say there is an evolution conspiracy theory in the scientific community. Even though current biological study etc. relies heavily on evolution being right, and if it wasn`t it`d be obvious and our studies would show it?
  132. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:24 pm
    Angilion: I think you are confusing DaVinci with Mozart.
  133. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:25 pm
    Once again CrakrJak... you know this how? What field of the scientific community have you contributed to, and see a fellow colleague thrown out of the scientific community?

    You see, your asinine assumptions are just that. Asinine assumptions. The scientific community doesn`t ostracize opposing beliefs. We my ask for scientific evidence, and review the crap out of it.. but that doesn`t make you "thrown out" of the scientific community.
  134. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:25 pm
    no, he was saying davinci, who`d make an awesome mechanic, could do the heart surgery as well.
    I still would want a more recent person to do my surgery though
  135. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:27 pm
    Serpentchick: I`d mention the studies and science that support Intelligent Design, but you`re likely schooled to dismiss it entirely without even looking at the details.
  136. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:28 pm
    considering the fact that when creationists had the trial..oh, I should say `intelligent design supporters`, the only scientist they could get to support them was one chemist...who just didn`t believe evolution worked the way it did. When confronted with LITERALLY about 2 feet tall worth of evidence that his one problem with evolution was wrong, even the judge thought he was retarded.
  137. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:29 pm
    elkingo: The scientific community doesn`t ostracize opposing beliefs.

    The hell it doesn`t, tectonic theory was once treated as Intelligent Design is now.
  138. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:29 pm
    you`re sounding more and more like a conspiracy theorist. No one`ll believe you cause the voices in their heads tell them not to? Seriously, if you have proof, show it. I actually use the scientific method, and believe in looking at proof. ACTUAL proof. From GOOD sources, not some dude`s blog.
  139. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:30 pm
    The studies that support intelligent design are not scientific, scholarly, or reviewed.

    The authors removed themselves from the scientific community because they could not handle the scrutiny of actual constructive criticism.

    Basically, they make a bold claim, without offering any evidence. It is hardly "science".
  140. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:32 pm
    tectonic theory... Lol..

    yea.. it isn`t "scientific" evidence to say that South America and Africa "look" like they connect.

    It simply isn`t science making claims without evidence.
  141. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:36 pm
    The hell it doesn`t, tectonic theory was once treated as Intelligent Design is now.
    Steady, Tiger. You`re making a fool of yourself.

    Hey, I have a suggestion: go tell people in Northern Japan that Plate Tectonic Theory is just a theory. I`d love to hear the response you get.
  142. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:38 pm
    still waiting on the damning evidence that intelligent design is the only answer and evolution is a bunch of hooey
  143. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:41 pm
    Serpentchick: So your basing your belief on one trial ? Should I base my disbelief on the result of the Scopes monkey trail ?

    Many scientists do not want to stick their necks out on the issue, they have careers and do not want to risk them. Just as many scientists silenced themselves after Galileo was punished, many remain silent today because they fear the same, only this time from the scientific establishment.
  144. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:41 pm
    I`d just love to know how CrakrJak knows all these intimate details regarding the scientific community, such as his interesting thoughts on test and measurement. I really am quite interested in how he knows the details of the scientific community.

    Although, I remain skeptical that he has any experience or contributions regarding any scientific community.
  145. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:42 pm
    you said you had proof but that I just wouldn`t read it. I`m waiting.
    quote "Serpentchick: I`d mention the studies and science that support Intelligent Design, but you`re likely schooled to dismiss it entirely without even looking at the details."
  146. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:43 pm
    "Many scientists do not want to stick their necks out on the issue, they have careers and do not want to risk them. Just as many scientists silenced themselves after Galileo was punished, many remain silent today because they fear the same, only this time from the scientific establishment."

    LMAO.. Oh geeze. That`s great man.. you can`t just make that crap up. You have to actually believe it!

    It`s like it never occurred to him that scientists aren`t jumping aboard because they simply need to see actual scientific evidence as opposed to: "Believe me because its a great theory!"
  147. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:44 pm
    and in case you forget, the trial was wanted by the intelligent design side, they wanted the judge to rule that they are scientific. They should have brought all they could to the table, they didn`t. They didn`t have any scientific supporters, except the one chemist. THEY decided they wanted the judge to decide what was and wasn`t a science. the judge didn`t even feel that that was his place, but he had to do it. And he told them they were not a science
  148. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:47 pm
    davymid: If you wish to whitewash the scientific history of killing new theories that challenge the status quo, then I have no more to say.
  149. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:48 pm
    Yay! *claps* Here comes the ad hominem! I knew it wasn`t far off! Do me next Crakr!

    Lmao
  150. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:50 pm
    dude, POST YOUR PROOF. JUST DO IT. POST IT. You say you have it, POST IT. and I will go through it all. I`m rediculously bored waiting for some rarespawing books in world of warcraft. I`ll read damn near anything right now. POST IT or admit you are wrong. those are your TWO options right now. You don`t post anything, I`ll take it as an admittance of being wrong.
  151. Profile photo of ukulelemike
    ukulelemike Male 40-49
    129 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:51 pm
    @elkingo: Actually, they are both scholarly AND scientific, and they are not reviewed only because no one is willing to review them and risk being ostracized by the closed-minded `science` community. Have a look at "Bones of Contention" or "Darwin`s Black Box", and tell me they are neither scholarly or scientific. The authors were removed from the scientific community because their theories were rejected out of hand by those who have already decided how everything will be interpreted.
  152. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:53 pm
    Serpentchick: Why don`t you search for it yourself ? Do I have to be your teacher ?

    I feel that it would be better that you discover this for yourself rather me guiding you, maybe you`ll be more apt to believe it that way.
  153. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:55 pm
    You said you had proof. I could look up millions of pieces of evidence for evolution (oh, like the one that this forum is for) but YOU are the one claiming to have proof against it. The job of proving something falls on the one that claims it, which is you. so do it. stop trying to get away from what you said about having proof. either you have it or you don`t
  154. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 10:58 pm
    ukulelemike: Both books.. not scholarly journal articles. They aren`t scientific because the authors call them scientific. They didn`t exactly "study" anything in either book.

    You do know what a study is right? It is when you use a statistical measure to show differences. It isn`t scientific because it doesn`t follow the scientific procedure. You see... you have to start out with a procedure. Basically, you look at scientific literature, and base a purpose for doing so.

    These writings are simply not that.. they are a hypothesis loosely based on what the authors think "could" be. There really isn`t anything scientific about that.


    Calling it scholarly means that it follows two principals:
    1. Involving or relating to serious academic study: "scholarly journals".
    2. Having or showing knowledge, learning, or devotion to academic pursuits.

    Coming up with an alternative theory does not make something scholarly
  155. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:01 pm
    Also - it`s the "peer review" process that actually makes stuff scholarly. otherwise it`s just someone claiming something and not letting anyone say he`s wrong, or he did something wrong. It`s someone standing on a soapbox with a megaphone, not a discussion at a round table
  156. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:01 pm
    "their theories were rejected out of hand by those who have already decided how everything will be interpreted."

    Wrong. They were rejected because there was nothing scientific about them. The authors had the same approach that CrakrJak has when asked to show his sources, "Look it up yourself!!!one!1!!eleven!"

    Those scientists then left the scientific community when they were disregarded as utter nonsense.
  157. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:02 pm
    Thanks for adding that Serpentchick. ; )
  158. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:05 pm
    As CJ is no Darwin you Elkingo are no Christian. Belief in a deity is not Christianity. I also take umbrage with your stated "scientist" claim. "Clinical adjunct therapist" is a science? Perhaps some science studies in psychology but the claim of "scientist" is more definitive. Very little theoretical content of human psychology meets scientific criterion of testable predictions. Scientific theories can only be falsified, they can never be proven true once and for all. That`s why Darwin`s "theory" is the truth of today.

    And to Davymid. Screw you. I`m not your son or your employee. My comment towards CJ was a humorous jab. Maybe if you had a funny bone in your body you`d have recognized it.
  159. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:09 pm
    well, it could be proven if we had a timelaps camera and a timemachine, and went to the beginning of life, we could actually make darwin`s theory a fact.
  160. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:10 pm
    Do I win if Crakr never posts proof? can I say I beat crakr? cause that`d be fun ^_^
    Elkingo you can say you won too :P
  161. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:11 pm
    Lol @ Madest. Yay! More ad hominem!

    What do I have to do to prove I am a Christian aside from believing in Jesus? Hmm.. I pray, follow the Great Commission, fast, witness, testify, defend my faith, etc. I am not quite sure what you think a "Christian" is, but if they don`t do those things, I don`t want to be one.

    Yes, being a "Clinical Adjunct Therapist" makes one a scientist, however, if you had done more than skimmed my profile, you would have also seen that I am a research assistant.

    I have published a study on the effects of caffeine on human attention and mood profile states. It was peer reviewed, and added to a research journal.

    I am not quite sure what more I have to offer up to you for the sake of proving to you that I am both a Christian and a Scientist.

    Would my membership card for the KPA or the APA persuade you more on my scientific stature?
  162. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:14 pm
    Psychology as a science

  163. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:19 pm
    still no proof linked...Waiiiting
  164. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:21 pm
    @Serpentchick -- you can`t post what you don`t have.

    However, with many of the other views Crakr has posted, I somehow doubt he even knows what "scientific evidence" is.
  165. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:22 pm
    I`m waiting for crakr to post what he considers proof, obviously. He said he had links but said I wouldn`t read them I will. I will also judge it as a scientist, and look at other sources for every. single. argument it has against evolution.
  166. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:24 pm
    Though again, if he doesn`t post any proof, I`m going to say I won.
  167. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36869 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:33 pm

    LOL @ CrakrJak ... `phrenology`...really?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Awesome trolling is awesome!
  168. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:33 pm
    @Madest -- I suppose you being a single atheist liberal whom eats chili makes you a religious authority of some kind.

    I can read profiles as well.
  169. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:33 pm
    ...I`m seriously still waiting for crakr to post proof. I`m interested to read what he thinks disproves all the biologists in the world
  170. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:36 pm
    OOOH, pleeeaasseee tell me his proof is that he doesn`t believe in an adaptation being used for a different purpose than it`s original use! the same problem the chemist had in the trial! I wanna talk about bacterial flaggela and immune system!
  171. Profile photo of Scuzoid
    Scuzoid Male 30-39
    1268 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:37 pm
    So crakr clarified he does not believe in evolution.

    Now, how old do you believe this planet to be, crakr? Not "How old do you believe god made the fake dinosaur fossils appear to be?" but a literal, when was this planet created?
  172. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:38 pm
    NO scuzoid! I`m still waiting for his "awe inspiring" proof evolution is horribly, horribly wrong! Don`t distract him!
  173. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:58 pm
    Can I say I won now? It`s been like an hour, and I`m getting bored of refreshing the page
  174. Profile photo of Lolboy
    Lolboy Male 70 & Over
    798 posts
    September 12, 2011 at 11:58 pm
    This discussion:


  175. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 12:00 am
    I didn`t go to your profile until you pointed out you changed it. I suspected you wanted people to go. Forgive me for reading the very thing you brought attention to...
  176. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 12:00 am
    heeey, I`m a chick. I even put it in my name because I`m so damn tired of people thinking I`m a dude just cause I like snakes. SNAKES ARE PRETTY DAMNIT >.<. also, this website is for people who are bored. I was massively bored. And I won, so nyaaa
  177. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 12:02 am
    darwin`s theory a fact.
    It`s already fact among other things mankind has actually observed male elephants being born without tusks. Why? Because the ones with tusks are getting poached.
  178. Profile photo of Scuzoid
    Scuzoid Male 30-39
    1268 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 12:02 am
    "NO scuzoid"

    He`s not going to answer your question on principle. You want to make him look dumb. I`m simply curious as to how literal his interpretation of the bible is.
  179. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 12:09 am
    He`s the one claiming to have proof. Don`t make a claim you can`t back up. He made himself look stupid a long time ago. I`m just forcing him to admit he`s wrong. There`s only so long he can say things are fact when they aren`t before he`s backed into a corner.
  180. Profile photo of LuckyDave
    LuckyDave Male 18-29
    675 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 12:30 am
    Just let the evolution thing go, okay? There are mountains upon mountains of evidence that it exists based on science; the very science that provided you with that cell phone you use, the computer you`re on, and the car you drive. Just let it drating go, everyone.

    So, moving on, its an interesting discovery, there are so many descendants we have and yet we are less diverse as an entire race than a small group of gorillas. Perhaps that signifies we`ve reached our full potential? If the traits of our ancestors led to us being the way we are, and we are so much alike, maybe its for a reason. I could also be a quack who knows nothing about evolution and taking shots in the dark (which I am) but its just a thought.
  181. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 2:06 am
    Serpentchick: I`d be wasting my time posting anything now wouldn`t I ? You`re already predisposed to not believe it.

    There is an old proverb about not throwing pearls before swine, so I choose let you do your own research and believe what ever you want. I`m just not interested in trying to change a stubborn person`s mind. I`ve said all I care to say tonight.

    The fact that you need to believe you won, is confirmation enough of your immaturity, so go ahead and gloat if you wish, It will only make you look like a spoiled teenager.
  182. Profile photo of Jimmy_Hex
    Jimmy_Hex Male 18-29
    13 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 2:28 am
    I friggin` love evolution. Natural selection FTW.
  183. Profile photo of tsiemens
    tsiemens Male 30-39
    515 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 4:17 am
    What if all these missing links they keep finding are just deformed humans like mongoloids? That would blow this evolution crap to smithereens wouldn`t it?
  184. Profile photo of gwardog
    gwardog Female 18-29
    30 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 4:22 am
    Obviously a weather balloon
    Fake
  185. Profile photo of PierreJeanFR
    PierreJeanFR Male 40-49
    1360 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 4:52 am
    At Crakrjakass: I`d be wasting my time posting anything now wouldn`t I ? You`re already predisposed to not believe it.

    There is an old proverb about not throwing pearls before swine, so I choose let you do your own research and believe what ever you want. I`m just not interested in trying to change a stubborn person`s mind. I`ve said all I care to say tonight.

    The fact that you need to believe you won, is confirmation enough of your immaturity, so go ahead and gloat if you wish, It will only make you look like a spoiled teenager.

    Saved me some time.

  186. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 5:30 am
    So at the end of this discussion we can say that a new couple is born...elkingo and Serpentchick maybe will gonna marry soon. Yay! IAB this could be the second mariage in this site. :-P

    I love you all Iabers.
  187. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 5:50 am
    Angilion: I think you are confusing DaVinci with Mozart.

    I think you`re so used to talking rubbish about science that it`s slopping over into other areas.

    Mozart did not invent a glider. Mozart was not particularly knowledgable about anatomy. Mozart was not the person Serpentchick was refering to when she wrote "I`d totally kill to have davinci as my mechanic though. He`d make my car kickass".
  188. Profile photo of dirtysteve00
    dirtysteve00 Male 30-39
    373 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 5:56 am
    @tsiemens, if they found a note from God saying `lol just kidding` under a specimen, then that would also blow evolution to crap, it`s just that either case is unlikely.
  189. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 6:05 am
    So, moving on, its an interesting discovery, there are so many descendants we have and yet we are less diverse as an entire race than a small group of gorillas. Perhaps that signifies we`ve reached our full potential? If the traits of our ancestors led to us being the way we are, and we are so much alike, maybe its for a reason.

    There is a hypothesis which explains that. If humanity was almost wiped out relatively recently, we would all be descended from a small number of people quite recently. There is some evidence that such an event occured about the same time as the Toba volcanic explosion, which could have caused it. That was ~75000 years ago. Not long for a long-lived species.

    Add in the fact that humans are broadly under the same evolutionary pressures and that we resist evolution by changing our environment to suit us and the remarkable similarity of humans is explainable.
  190. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 6:14 am
    What if all these missing links they keep finding are just deformed humans like mongoloids? That would blow this evolution crap to smithereens wouldn`t it?

    No.

    Evolution is observable and observed. It has profound effects on humanity. You may have heard of MRSA, but that`s just one example of many.

    Humans have been using evolution as a tool for tens of thousands of years. Selective breeding of livestock requires evolution. It`s evolution by human selection - the evolution part is exactly the same as it is with evolution by natural selection.

    Denying the existence of evolution is as silly as denying the existence of, for example, gravity.

    More to come.
  191. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 6:22 am
    Fossilisation is extremely rare, requiring a combination of unusual circumstances.

    Deformities that change the shape of the skull are also rare.

    It`s not plausible that such a high proportion of hominid fossils would be the result of deformities.
  192. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 6:42 am
    Angilion: You got it backwards there man, Go back and look at it again.

    serpentchick, "And I still wouldn`t want mozart to be doing my open heart surgery..."

    Angilion, "He`d probably be able to do some heart surgery, too. His knowledge of anatomy was way ahead of his time and he knew the structure of the heart, the way in which blood moved inside it, etc."

    You made the mistake, Not I.

    I`ll accept your apology anytime you`re willing.
  193. Profile photo of yoda141
    yoda141 Male 18-29
    266 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 6:58 am
    Crakrjak:
    "madest and other atheists wish to use science as a limitation of God. The problem with that is, there are at least 4 different sets of `laws` of physics based in the size of the objects involved. In trying to `unify` those sets of laws even more exotic rules have been devised to the point now that pretty much anything is possible.

    If God is all-powerful he has no limitations and doesn`t have to follow any scientific theories or rules to do what he wants."

    Ok now you`ve entered physics, MY realm. Prepare yourself.
    First, there are no 4 sets of laws that describe the universe depending on their scales. There are 2 theories for 4 fundamental forces. So what you said makes no sense. And second, we don`t use science to limit your god, that would assume that your god exists in the first place. What we do is explain things that used to be attributed to your god`s wrath (like thunder and lightning) with naturalistic causes based on anything,killi
  194. Profile photo of yoda141
    yoda141 Male 18-29
    266 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 7:09 am
    -killing your god`s hiding spots one.
    Still, i`d like to point out this is not the goal of science, to disprove god, but in finding the truth, it`s only expected that ancient, primitive beliefs would be disproved. It may not be possible to disprove a generic god, but it is possible to disprove a particular one, and yours has been disproved, scientifically and logically, by researching all the claims of the bible and comparing them to what we know of the universe. The only possible thing creationists can do is shut their ears and eyes so their worthless faith is not shaken.
  195. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36869 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 7:16 am
    CrakrJak "In other words, they found an unusual looking chimpanzee. Not impressed."
    I marvel at your ability to dismiss scientific fact or cloud the issue by comparing it to something unrealted, like phrenology.

    `That`s just based on fact and evidence. Pay it no attention.`

    Really, it does amaze me because in other ways you seem to have an intelligent mind.
    Could it be you are... SCIENCEPHOBIC!
  196. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 7:31 am
    yoda: the 4 sets of `laws`, Particle physics, Atomic physics, Newtonian physics and Cosmological physics. All use different formulas and obey differing rules (although some are shared), and they all describe object behavior differently. Thus the struggle to come up with a `unified field theory` has been a very difficult and strange road.

    String theory is proposing 11 dimensions, maybe more, last I heard, with some truly bizarre interactions and behavior among those dimensions.

    11 dimensions, with us as humans only able to perceive 4 of them, gives God a lot of room to work undetected and that`s even if you do believe science could somehow limit a omnipotent being.
  197. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 7:40 am
    @madest - "Forgive me for reading the very thing you brought attention to..."

    Not upset about that at all.. Was simply bothered by the fact that you only half read it, and then made assumptions about it (and thus me) that are vague generalizations.

    You tried to assume based on half of my listed occupation the nature of my beliefs. I find that laughable. So, I did the same thing to you with your profile. I cherry picked a few data points, and then made an asinine assumption like you did.
  198. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 7:43 am
    "What we do is explain things that used to be attributed to your god`s wrath (like thunder and lightning) with naturalistic causes based on anything,killing your god`s hiding spots one."

    Maybe for the weak minded or simpleton. God doesn`t need thunder or lightning to hide behind; and those who think that, are merely weak in faith.
  199. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 7:43 am
    Gerry: Measuring skull regions to determine intelligence level is the same pseudo-science as phrenology only using a different name.

    Considering the wide variety of sizes and shapes of current human skulls, would you dare say that one person likely has more intelligence based on the size and shape of their head ? If so then why wasn`t Robert Wadlow one of the smartest men in the world and Herve Villechaize one of the least ?

    You simply cannot base intelligence on cranial shape and size, it`s been disproved.
  200. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 7:43 am
    @Lolboy

    my image to large for your troll post?
  201. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 7:45 am
    You simply cannot base intelligence on cranial shape and size, it`s been disproved.

    I`ve said it already Crakr that`s NOT the point of this video.
  202. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 7:45 am
    Btw, I met Herve Villechaize in person one time, cool guy, fun to talk with. :-)
  203. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 8:01 am
    Look Elkingo, I don`t really give 2 rats asses about what you do or your beleif system. Psychology isn`t psychiatry. As I pointed out earlier that doesn`t equate to science. As for me, I`ll get whatever mental help I need from a doctor.
  204. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 8:04 am
    madest: As for me, I`ll get whatever mental help I need from a doctor.

    Please do, and quickly !
  205. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1610 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 8:23 am
    I marvel at your ability to dismiss scientific fact.

    He`s trolling. It`s nothing to marvel at.
  206. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 8:23 am
    @ Madest - I never claimed psychology was psychiatry. Nor did I claim you had mental problems.

    I made the claim that Psychology is science.

    You need to quite making sensationalist claims, and then back-peddling out of whats going on.

    You accused me of not being a Christian.
    You accused me of not being a Scientist.

    You know little to nothing about me, so that makes your claims ad hominem.

    I can defend all of my beliefs, and if you truly do not care about them, stop making posts telling me you take umbrage with them. It simply makes you look ridiculous (and on a side note, it makes you look like an even poorer mod).
  207. Profile photo of yoda141
    yoda141 Male 18-29
    266 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 8:34 am
    Crakrjak: first, newtonian physics are fundamentally wrong. we know that now. They are still around because they are fairly accurate with everyday physics but if you wannt a precise answer, you need to use einstenian formulae. And string theory has no evidence for it, and the 11 dimensions is just math. But yeah, god could work undetected, even within 3 dimensions, after all he`s supposedly omnipotent. But the christian god, your god, supposedly made the world in a specific way, made some events like the flood, and it is that baggage that can be disproved. And guess what? there is no evidence that they happened, and even evidence of the contrary. I urge you to go to talkorigins.org like baalthazaq suggested, but that is only if you look for answers rather than trying to accomodate your god to reality.
  208. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 8:41 am
    Indeed yoda141, It`s almost as absurd as a "scientist" claiming Noah`s Arc was real.
  209. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 8:50 am
    @madest - Trololololololololololo!!
  210. Profile photo of flyducks
    flyducks Male 13-17
    231 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 9:17 am
    I`m not as good at science as you guys...
  211. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 9:25 am
    Don`t worry about that, flyducks.

    We have Crakrjak, who hasn`t contributed anything to the scientific community, ever, making scientific discoveries.

    Likewise, we have Madest, a self proclaimed atheist who works in construction and eats chili doing the same sort of stuff. Oh yea, he is also a religious authority (He can tell if you love Jesus or not!).

    Both of those two are completely incompetent in the fields they talk about, but their views are sacrosanct to everyone else`s.

  212. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 9:29 am
    Crakrjak still didn`t post his proof. After saying he totally had some, I just wouldn`t even read it. Still waiting there crakr.

    Also, nowhere in the film do they say that the brain size increase meant he was smarter. In fact, the brain size, and shape, meant they were more closely related to modern humans than previous species. It`s a shared trait. Not an explanation for being smarter. If anything, other parts of the body were used more to show they were smarter, and NOT the brain size/shape.

    Shared traits are what we use to show relationships, so they are really, REALLY important. It`d be like finding they have a bone structure that`s more like ours than the previous ones. They never claimed the brain made him smarter. ever. rewatch the video if you don`t believe me.
  213. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 9:40 am
    and maddest - why are you personally attacking elkingo for saying he`s christian. he`s not trying to force it on you or anyone else, and he believes ON FAITH that the stories are meant for lessons. He didn`t say that Noah`s ark happened. If anything he`s one of the GOOD christians, the ones I like. He can believe on faith that his God exists if that`s what feels right to him, and from what I know MOST christians, actual christians and not ones in name only, believe them to be lessons.
    If it makes his life better as a whole, and doesn`t cause any problems for other people, why attack him for it, especially saying he said stuff he didn`t.
    If he wants to believe that 2000 years ago someone, who said some pretty nice things, sacrificed himself for the good of mankind, I think he has the right to do so, even though I don`t share that belief.
  214. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 9:45 am
    @Serpentchick, and I believe that everyone has the right to believe and love how they want. I added you to my facebook, and if you notice, I have a very diverse group of friends. I have atheists, lesbians, Catholics, Methodists, Muslims, Christians, liberals, democrats, republicans, conservatives, etc etc. Everyone has the right to do what is best for them in this life, and morally should do what is best for others as well.
  215. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 9:48 am
    I think maybe Madest can`t accept that, and is either trying to provoke me into something unscientific or blasphemous. That way he can continue to live under the premise that science and religion are two very divided things within a person, and you are either one or the other (black and white thinking). I think in Madest`s world, it is hard for him to understand that the scientific and religious/anti-religous world is not made up of the 1% of extremists that post on forums.
  216. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 10:06 am
    Awwww elkingo have added Serpentchic to his facebook page. Told you guys that a love story is coming,wait i go to take some pop corn and soda, don`t go forward without me.
  217. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 10:07 am
    piper - I`m married. Ain`t gonna happen
  218. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 10:08 am
    Noah`s Arc, Adam and Eve doesn`t make logical sense much less scientific sense. But hey, whatever. I don`t believe in God because it doesn`t make logical sense much less scientific sense. If it gives you comfort by all means enjoy it but don`t attempt to back it up with absurd scientific nonsense.
  219. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 10:11 am
    Ouch sorry Serpentchic, well i mean not sorry cause you are married but sorry if i`ve been indiscrete.
  220. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 10:12 am
    Piper - likewise, I am happily married by 10 years myself. Not going to happen.

    Madest - quit trolling man. I am not going to argue with you how I have faith and study science any more. You sound like a broken record posting the same nonsense over and over. Your ignorance simply isn`t going to provoke me in the manner you want it to.
  221. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 10:15 am
    He never tried to back up his faith with science, and in fact said that science and faith are separate, which even atheists in science say. Faith is outside the realm of science. Which is why when you CLAIM it to be science, like crakrjak did, scientists hold you to proof, where as when you say it`s faith scientists will just leave it at that.
    Isn`t part of faith that you believe it just because it feels right to you, and not because there is proof? One of the definitions of faith is "belief that is not based on proof". From what I can tell he`s doing that fine, and in the way that is actually scientifically valid.
  222. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 10:15 am
    ok elkingo the same i say to Serpentchic.
  223. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 10:17 am
    Piper - o_O

    Haha.. I don`t even know how to respond to you.
  224. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 10:19 am
    Ok guys while you continue this interesting discussion i go to take a walk with my dog, when i come back i want lot more of posts.
  225. Profile photo of LuckyDave
    LuckyDave Male 18-29
    675 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 10:25 am
    There is a hypothesis which explains that. If humanity was almost wiped out relatively recently, we would all be descended from a small number of people quite recently. There is some evidence that such an event occured about the same time as the Toba volcanic explosion, which could have caused it. That was ~75000 years ago. Not long for a long-lived species.

    Add in the fact that humans are broadly under the same evolutionary pressures and that we resist evolution by changing our environment to suit us and the remarkable similarity of humans is explainable.

    Ah, ok. Well that makes sense.
  226. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 10:29 am
    just be glad we`re not like the cheetah, which has undergone 2 bottleneck events (when most of the members die out) close together. there is so little genetic diversity it has caused some inbreeding problems. Some scientists expect them to not make it in the long run, but it depends on future human action.
  227. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 11:06 am
    He never tried to back up his faith with science, and in fact said that science and faith are separate, which even atheists in science say.
    ---------
    Serpentchick whatever. You haven`t been following along so caught up with your CJ feud. He did indeed attempt to tie Noah`s arc to science and I shot that down in about a half a second as you did with CJ. Both of us would like a bit of acknowledgement when facts overwhelmingly outweigh fantasy. But alas you only see yourself as the lone crusader.
  228. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 11:19 am
    Just re-read everything Elkingo posted. Found the bit about noah. He said there`s some proof of a giant flood. considering the fact that SCIENTISTS have actually been working on that, because lots of cultures have stories of a giant flood around the same time, I don`t really see the problem with believing a giant flood was possible. not a "world covering" flood, but a big one nonetheless. And he was talking about how he could believe those things. ON FAITH. does he expect everyone else to believe it? no, not without scientific proof.
    Even people without faith like seeing if any of the stories from the bible, or ANY OTHER work of literature that`s really old, matches up with reality. Some parts of the bible are probably links to actual events. Plagues of locusts could actually happen, so can lots of other events. However the water walking etc. is faith based, and elkingo admits that.
  229. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 11:29 am
    and for the lone crusader, I don`t think that. I want to say I beat CJ cause he annoys the crap out of me, but that`s about it. You`re personally attacking someone, I want CJ to post proof. In that way we are different
  230. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 11:30 am
    Not so different at all actually.
  231. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 11:31 am
    Yea, Madest really "shot down" everything I said. Did you not see the post were he stated, "Well sir I don`t think you are "Christian"."

    Clearly that scientific observation came from a religious authority. It clearly "shot down" any of my thoughts with superior intellect and executive functioning.

    /sarcasm
  232. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 11:32 am
    I thought mods were supposed to stop arguments on the forums, not provoke them with petty personal attacks anyway.
  233. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 11:39 am
    crakrjak was saying that evolution is wrong, and said he had proof. I asked for it, and he refused to give it to me.

    YOU said that elkingo was a liar for being christian and a scientist. You insulted him saying he cannot have faith and be a scientist, and called into question his science as even science. You asked him how he could believe some things, and he said what he knew on the subject, even stating that most was faith based, although there may be some actual proof of a large flood.

    Those two things are very, very different.
  234. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 11:48 am
    don`t forget maddest - absence of proof is NOT proof of absence. Just because there is no proof that god exists doesn`t mean he doesn`t. And as long as it doesn`t negatively affect other people, elkingo can believe in as many gods as he damn well wants to
  235. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 12:10 pm
    No there is proof of no Noah. Eve did not come from the rib of Adam. No such thing as Immaculate conception. My point to Elkingo was he is not Christian if he picks and chooses what to believe and what to consider nonsense. The dictionary defines Christianity as the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies.
    Like many people who claim Christianity as their religion you`ll see them purposly ignore the parts of the Bible that don`t agree with their lifestyle. Like watching Sarah Palin claim she`s a Christian while eating Alaskan king crabs in a cotton / polyester blouse.
    I could go on but I`ve almost reached my limit of 24hr in one thread alone. I`ll ask my dog for forgiveness and she will forgive me.
  236. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 12:23 pm
    Faith and religion don`t have to follow those exact guidelines. If that was true, there`s only be one sect of christianity. There are dozens. To say someone isn`t christian because they don`t fit YOUR definition of it, when it`s something that is PURELY faith based, is wrong. He believes in Jesus, and he follows the teachings of the bible in a way that makes sense to most christians, understanding that rules change with time.
    It`d be like finding SOME SMALL detail you didn`t believe was right about being liberal, and saying you are totally not liberal.
    How dare elkingo NOT fit your cookie cutter mold of christianity? sooo hoooriblleeee! He must be lying! or, you know, life could not be that black and white, unlike this website.
  237. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 12:28 pm
    and again, absence of proof is NOT proof of absence. It is ridiculously difficult to prove that something centuries ago didn`t happen. and again, he said he believes on faith, but that there may be some science behind part of the story. As I said, books like the bible do usually have some bits of truth to them, as in actual events that just have mystical elements added to them. Greek stories that involve the gods may actually have, in some ways, happened. It`s the same thing, people see things in their lives, and without science at the time to explain it, put in gods as the answer. So in some ways they are historical. maybe it flooded for a few days in a large area, killing lots of people. Floods happen, and they kill people and animals. That could be construed as god`s wrath. Since people these days are blaming hurricanes on gay people, it`s not that hard to imagine people doing the same a long time ago.
  238. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 12:32 pm
    Call me crazy. I expect more from a self proclaimed "scientist". Likewise I wouldn`t want my doctor to be Christian because they believe in life after death so my continuing on this life may not be so important to them. God forbid I have a near fatal heart attack on the Sabbath. Wow I`d be completely screwed.
  239. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 12:35 pm
    Fine, you can go on hating christians for believing in something that you don`t, how dare they feel like they have a connection that you don`t seem to feel? How dare they follow the teachings of a guy that said to feed the poor? take care of the needy and less fortunate? They must care less about this life just because there`s a heaven! Or, they could be sane, perfectly nice people, that think that this life IS special, and want to live it learning about the world, helping people, and making this place better in some way or another. I`ve known my fair share of jackass christians, but to assume the same thing of all of them is wrong. Some of the nicest people I know are christians.
  240. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 12:37 pm
    wow. I would never have guessed that I`d be defending christians on an internet forum, so many of them have said I`m going to hell for being pagan.
  241. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 12:52 pm
    I think the problem is that you are debating about being christians or atheist, i`ve solved the problem being an agnostic. I belive in God but certainly not in the church, is not so difficult guys. Chriastians and atheists are the two faces of the same medal, if you really want to be free and have a confortable relation with what you can`t understand just be an agnostic so no one will tell you how to be and what to do to fullfill the requests of an organized human religion.
  242. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 12:55 pm
    Apropos to this discussion I think is a masterful piece trying to describe religion to atheists via talking about narratives and their importance to human beings. It`s a respectful and intriguing work everyone can enjoy called Believing in Johnny Cash: An Open Letter to Atheists.
  243. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 12:57 pm
    you don`t just choose your religion like that, piper. It`s what feels right, makes sense. Makes you feel connected, and a bit more whole. If being an atheist makes you feel right, that`s fine. If believing someone died for your sins, and you should be a good person because of it, that`s fine too. If you think that there are 20 gods, some of whom are dicks that like to sleep with everyone, that`s fine too. (yay greek gods, for raping everyone >.<) as long as it doesn`t cause you to harm other people, and you can be a decent person, allowing others to have their own religious beliefs, there`s no problem.
  244. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 1:05 pm
    I was athiest most of my childhood. Christian for a week though (did NOT turn out well) Then I discovered paganism, and thought about what felt right to me. On faith, feeling alone. Not science, not even really reasoning, just what felt right. That`s how I came to be pagan. And it feels right to me. And I treat people fairly (as much as I can) believe others can have whatever religion they want, and don`t try to say my faith is science when it isn`t. That`s how religion should be.
  245. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 1:20 pm
    yes you don`t chose your religion this is true. In most of cases you don`t decide your religion but the society, your family, your school and your environment impose to you what religion you must follow and this happen when you are a real little kid that can barely talk. I belive that God exist in what we can`t understand, in the music, in the nature, i have areally personal and intense relation whit my God without the need to follow some "human" rule pretending to be the voice of God or some convenient direction by any kind of church. Being a christian, a muslim ,an induist and so on mean follow rules created by humans whit all the fallacy that this involve, and in my opinion there is nothing so far from the real purity of the God than to subdue the will of another human or church. Beign atheist is a way to put yourself over all, is a bit sellfish. But this is just my opinion.
  246. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 1:29 pm
    Exactly, it is your opinion. To you, the rules don`t make sense. to others they do. to some, they don`t feel, and don`t need to feel, a connection to anything like god, and don`t see a purpose for it. It`s not so simple that one is right and the others are all wrong. To you, your choice is right. To others having a god without the lessons in the bible, the koran, the torah or whatever else, doesn`t make as much sense.
    Having stories that are passed down through generations is part of what makes humans so unique, other species don`t, so I can understand wanting to follow the bible. To me it just doesn`t seem right, so I don`t follow it.
  247. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 1:38 pm
    I think some people are more susceptable to belief in a deity than others. It could very well be a genetic thing. Scientists have discovered that sending electrical impulses to a specific part of the brain can induce a God-like presense. It would certainly explain much of the madness surrounding religion. Personally I get caught up in the gobbeldygook surrounding religion. Don`t get me wrong I love Christmas but when someone tells me they will pray for me I find that insulting. "Bless you"? Means nothing to me. Gesundheit however works. "Sin" is another religious club word that our government uses to tax things they don`t agree with at higher rates than other stuff. IE: Alcohol, cigarettes, sodas, fatty foods. Religion could be much more appealing to me if it wasn`t a desire to control others. Live up to being the best person you can be, don`t concern yourself with your neighbors "sin". But then that, in and of itself, goes against the churches teachings
  248. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 1:52 pm
    madest - it depends on the church. You obviously feel fulfilled by being atheist. And that`s fine. Some of us feel that there is something else out there. Whether that`s an actual person type being, just general energy, what have you, and to tell us there isn`t, when you don`t have proof and we feel it`s true, makes no sense. Again, as long as you don`t use religion to hurt other people, who cares?
  249. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 2:31 pm
    madest: Noah`s Arc, Adam and Eve doesn`t make logical sense much less scientific sense.

    UFOs & aliens make even less sense, but you believe in those, so please quit telling people their beliefs don`t make sense and perhaps I`ll drop the `UFO boy` moniker for you.
  250. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 3:01 pm
    Hey crakr, got that proof yet? It`s been a while. I`m stiil waiting
  251. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 3:18 pm
    looool i`ve learn a lesson, never start a fight with Serpentchic, she gonna haunt you also in your dreams. XD just kidding Serpent, don`t be enraged with me.
  252. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 4:08 pm
    dude, crakr said he had proof, but said I would dismiss it without looking. Considering the fact that crakr has annoyed me many times, and this time he said something so ridiculous, I`m going to hold him to what he said. He said he had proof. I said show proof or admit you are wrong.
  253. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 6:11 pm
    Madest, in no way are you a religious authority. You are completely Theophobic (fear of religion). Not only that, you are a self proclaimed atheist. All you can do is make vague generalizations about other people`s theistic ideology, and demonize them for it.

    There are literally thousands of interpretations to the Bible. One such translation views the entire Bible as analogy (For more information go here.) Others yet believe the Bible to be an exact meaning (For more information go here.)

    I am neither of those faiths. But for you to make asinine assumptions that people do not care for one another, are evil, and pose a threat to your being because they are Christian is absurd.

    You sit on
  254. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 6:14 pm
    You sit on your butt in front of your computer playing video games and reading whatever rhetoric you can find about how "bad" Christians are.

    Yet you don`t want to hear about anything good we can do.

    I would appreciate in the future if you simply ignore my posts. I think you are dangerous. You are the type of person that has such an extreme fear of people, that you are unpredictable.

    You should seek help. Go find you a good non-theological psychiatrist, and have them discuss your irrational thoughts with you. They have meds that can make the fear go away. GET THEM. You need them.
  255. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 6:22 pm
    @Serpentchick -- "as long as you don`t use religion to hurt other people, who cares?"

    That is exactly what Madest is doing. He is using his irrational fears and beliefs about religion to hurt others. Why else would he feel the need to talk so degrading about other people`s faith? Especially in cases where it is trivial or a moot point.
  256. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 6:23 pm
    "Call me crazy. I expect more from a self proclaimed "scientist". "

    Call me crazy, but I expect more from a site moderator.
  257. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 6:25 pm
    "I wouldn`t want my doctor to be Christian because they believe in life after death so my continuing on this life may not be so important to them. God forbid I have a near fatal heart attack on the Sabbath. Wow I`d be completely screwed."

    This is the most irrational fear of Christians I have ever heard. Doctors (like psychologists) have to swear the Hippocratic oath, and follow HIPAA standards. It is completely udder madness.
  258. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1610 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 6:26 pm
    Aaaaaanyway, it was a cool video. The evolution of the pelvic girdle from flat to bowl-shaped, demonstrating our transition from a quadrupedal to bipedal animal, is truly fascinating. I look forward to the next discovery.
  259. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 7:03 pm
    I still like the fact that it is a demonstration of the effect tool use had on our evolution. Smaller teeth, standing more upright, etc. Pretty cool in my book
  260. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 7:59 pm
    You made the mistake, Not I.

    I`ll accept your apology anytime you`re willing.

    I`m not surprised that you`d remove the key part of a sentence to falsely claim someone else is wrong - after all, you`re devoted to peddling disinformation and lies.

    I am surprised that you marked your removal with an ellipsis - that`s almost honest.

    Just in case anyone is fooled by your sanctimonious dishonesty, I`ll explain it:

    Serpentchick wrote a sentence about Mozart and then a sentence about Leonardo.

    I replied using the pronoun "he". This, of course, refers to the person mentioned immediately before, i.e. Leonardo.

    You removed that sentence in your quote so that you could peddle disinformation, as you so often do.

    I`m not going to wait for your apology, because I don`t have enough respect for you to care whether or not you apologise.
  261. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 8:11 pm
    My point to Elkingo was he is not Christian if he picks and chooses what to believe and what to consider nonsense.

    By that standard, there aren`t *any* Christians.

    I have a rather more lax standard. If someone;

    i) Has faith in the existence of the Abrahamic god

    ii) Had faith in the existence of Jesus as the messiah of Judaism

    iii) Has faith that Jesus was some sort of enlightened messenger from that god

    iv) Calls themselves a Christian

    then I`ll count them as a Christian.

    I consider it an odd dichotomy for such a person to completely seperate their faith from their thought and an odd thing for them to want to do so, but if they can do it then I`ll accept them as a scientist as well, providing they do indeed keep the two completely seperate and they do science as science.
  262. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 8:20 pm
    "I wouldn`t want my doctor to be Christian because they believe in life after death so my continuing on this life may not be so important to them. God forbid I have a near fatal heart attack on the Sabbath. Wow I`d be completely screwed."

    This is the most irrational fear of Christians I have ever heard. Doctors (like psychologists) have to swear the Hippocratic oath, and follow HIPAA standards. It is completely udder madness.

    Consider the explicit command forbidding all work of any kind on the sabbath, it is not utter madness. A theist doctor might well consider a command from their god to be more important than a command from a secular organisation.

    Besides, nobody really swears the Hippocratic oath nowadays. For a start, why would swearing an oath by ancient Greek gods matter to them? Providing free medical education to the sons of the people who taught them medicine wouldn`t work too well either.
  263. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 8:21 pm
    Angilion: Then you made the mistake of improper pronoun usage, You should`ve specified who "he" was in your sentence.

    Serpentchick specified Mozart in relation to `heart surgery` and Leonardo in reference to being a mechanic, Since your reply referred to `heart surgery` the reader is left to assume that the "he" in your reply is Mozart.

    Your lack of specificity, in replying to a comment with two (or more) subjects was the problem and apparently you can`t admit that mistake for the sake of your pride.
  264. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 8:24 pm
    No, it is an irrational fear to think any doctor would not want to save lives. That is sort of the point of going into the medical field.

    Most Christians feel that Sabbath was made for man, and not the man for Sabbath. In other words, if a client comes in for treatment on Sunday, we provide treatment on Sunday.
  265. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 8:27 pm
    BTW.. we use this: I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

    I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

    I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

    I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon`s knife or the chemist`s drug.

    I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient`s recovery.



  266. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 8:27 pm
    I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

    I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person`s family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

    I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.
  267. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 8:27 pm
    I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

    If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.
  268. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 8:28 pm
    We don`t use the late 5th century BCE version.
  269. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 8:29 pm
    @Angilion: "Besides, nobody really swears the Hippocratic oath nowadays."

    What part of the medical field are you a part of in Europe? Just curious, because this sounds as if you know a lot of people in the medical field.
  270. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14656 posts
    September 13, 2011 at 10:19 pm
    elkingo seems to have a bee wedged firmly in his bonnet. It`s hard when you have to justify a religion.
  271. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 12:34 am
    ...seriously, the debate about a pronoun? I thought it was fairly obvious that he was talking about davinci, but who cares? it was just a pronoun, no reason to get all messed up.
    Still waiting for proof crakr, though it is funny you think a pronoun confusion is MORE important than your data that would change bioscience, and maybe all science, forever if it was looked at scientifically.
  272. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 1:36 am
    Serpentchick: Still waiting for you to go look it up yourself, you have google right ? Well then use it. If you decide to never look, for yourself, at the other side of the argument, then how can you call yourself educated about it ? Did you just swallow whole everything your professors taught without skepticism of any sort ?
  273. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 2:31 am
    We don`t use the late 5th century BCE version.

    Which is the Hippocratic oath. If you use a different oath (which doctors do), then it`s not the same oath. It`s a different oath because it`s a different oath. If it`s not the same oath as the Hippocratic oath (and it isn`t), then it isn`t the Hippocratic oath.

    If I buy a new car, it isn`t an ancient Greek chariot. Sure, it`s similar in principle. But you wouldn`t call it an ancient Greek chariot.
  274. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 2:35 am
    Angilion: Then you made the mistake of improper pronoun usage, You should`ve specified who "he" was in your sentence.

    There was no need. Anyone who understands English would know that it applied to the most recent male person referred to, especially if they read the rest of the post.

    Including you. You aren`t stupid. You just pretend to be for a specific purpose.
  275. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 2:38 am
    Also, in case anyone missed it, you deliberately edited your quoting of the post to make it appear different.

    Of course, if you had any basis for your alleged misinterpretation (that nobody else shares), you wouldn`t have had to do that.
  276. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 2:41 am
    "Besides, nobody really swears the Hippocratic oath nowadays."

    What part of the medical field are you a part of in Europe? Just curious, because this sounds as if you know a lot of people in the medical field.

    No, it sounds like I have some knowledge of ancient Greece. Enough to know what the actual Hippocratic oath is, at least in translation. My main area of historical interest is ancient Rome, but if you look at Rome you need to look at Greece as well.
  277. Profile photo of robosnitz
    robosnitz Male 40-49
    2737 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 6:57 am
    Hog wash.
  278. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 7:23 am
    Angilion -- I am not sure if you are trolling, or just very stupid.

    Your analogy of a chariot and a car is off base. You are comparing apples to oranges.

    A 1965 Ford Mustang and a 2010 Ford Mustang are still Ford Mustangs.. just different versions. The original Hippocratic Oath and the current Hippocratic Oath are still Hippocratic Oaths.

    But, you made the claim that doctors didn`t take the oath; which is untrue. They swear a modern version of the oath.


    I think it is absolutely absurd to argue over the semantics of this. I think the truth is simple: you are just pulling your thoughts straight out of your bum.
  279. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 7:34 am
    CrakrJak: How can she go look for it herself? I mean.. what would be the search terms: "CrakrJak`s ultimate evidence against the current biological models"? That is simply absurd.
  280. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 9:26 am
    crakrjak, again, the job of proving an idea falls to the one that says it. I said I could show you millions of pieces of proof on evolution, the theory that I understand VERY well, and have seen proof with my own eyes that it is correct.
    You are the one claiming you know something different. In science, that means you need to show YOUR proof. It`s not up to me to validate your theory, the theory that has been laughed out of science by utter lack of proof. It`s up to you, the person that believes it. I *could* look up millions of ID sites, but as I`ve looked at some before, and laughed at how BAD their argument was, I`m waiting to see how super awesome your proof is. Either you show proof, or you are WRONG. That`s what science is. PROOF or GTFO.
  281. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 1:17 pm
    I guess after this forum hit page 2, the response stops. Ha.
  282. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 7:44 pm
    I think it is absolutely absurd to argue over the semantics of this. I think the truth is simple: you are just pulling your thoughts straight out of your bum.

    You might not have noticed, but people who are just pulling their thoughts out of their bum can rarely explain them.

    You think a different oath written more than two millenia later, with some stuff removed and some stuff added, is the same oath.

    I don`t.

    Incidentally, is this the basis of your later comment that I insult Christians? That would be...interesting. Is it the change in gods in the different oaths that you claim are the same oath that you want to cover up?
  283. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 8:19 pm
    elkingo: How can she go look for it herself?

    She has a brain, she has the internet, her fingers aren`t broken, She can figure it out for herself without my help, unless you`re saying she`s not intelligent to look up the terms `intelligent design` or `irreducible complexity` on her own.
  284. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 8:22 pm
    Serpentchick: the job of proving an idea falls to the one that says it.

    I have provided links to quite a bit of proof, in the past, here on IAB, Forgive me if I don`t care to ride the merry-go-round every time this subject comes up.
  285. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 8:28 pm
    ...to look up the terms `intelligent design` or `irreducible complexity` on her own.
    Both debunked countless times, not just scientifically, but even legally. It`s complete bunk. It`s not science. It`s religious creationism. Its results are neither provable, repeatable, nor do they provide predictions, some of the key aspects, nay, the very definition, of the scientific method.

    I could go to google now and hit up "fake moon landings" or "911 conspiracy theory" and get millions of hits. Does that make it scientific proof?

    Come come now CJ, you`re smarter than this.
  286. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 9:01 pm
    Crakrjak -- I may have missed it earlier, but I think within this: "look up the terms `intelligent design` or `irreducible complexity`", this is the first time I have heard you mention search criteria. I think before the argument was more on the terms of: " I can present a counter argument, but you wouldn`t read it."
  287. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 9:12 pm
    Irreducible complexity only makes sense if you think that things cannot change uses. It`s like saying hands, which started out for locomotion, couldn`t then be used to manipulate tools. I`ve learned a lot about irreducible complexity, and how wrong it is. If you have a case that can only make sense through irreducible complexity, please enlighten me.
    However, irreducible complexity was the argument used in the trial, and it failed, miserably. They said that the evolution of the flagellum could not happen, because if you remove parts it doesn`t work for movement. HOWEVER, if you remove parts, guess what! it`s an immune system piece, instead of for movement.
    Eyes have also been talked about as irreducibly complex, which is also laughable. For one thing, they are HORRIBLY designed, so I wouldn`t call whoever made them "intelligent", same with teeth.
    There are millions of papers on the evolution of some of the most complicated structures. Your argument is wrong. You
  288. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 9:18 pm
    You are wrong. Every time that irreducible complexity comes up, some scientist is able to figure out at least one way that it could evolve.
  289. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 9:23 pm
    Serpentchick, Elkingo and others. You`re only starting to experience the Crakrjak. Just wait till he gets on to climate change. You know the schtick he pulls about ID scientists being ostracised from the scientific community in favour of evolutionists in order to keep up their paychecks? You`ve only seen the tip of the iceberg. Crakrjak is an authority on matters of science, dontchaknow.

    Sad thing is, he rails against conspiracy theorists, while being one himself.

    Two of the moonbattiest people I have met on this site are Madest and Crakrjak. And yet they diametrically oppose each other. Who woulda figured?
  290. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 9:26 pm
    Hippocratic Oath

    I am not quite sure what you call the "modern" version of the Hippocratic oath, but for what it is worth, here it is.

    When people use and call it the Hippocratic oath, I don`t quite see how there is confusion in my original statement that we still swear the Hippocratic oath -- whether the original or modern version, we still swear what is called the Hippocratic Oath. Sure, we don`t swear the 5th century version, but we do swear a Hippocratic Oath.

    So... I don`t quite understand how you think I am being dishonest.
  291. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 9:27 pm
    Davy, I just hope that you don`t associate his rantings and ravings with the other 99.999999999999% of Christians.
  292. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 9:30 pm
    "Incidentally, is this the basis of your later comment that I insult Christians? That would be...interesting. Is it the change in gods in the different oaths that you claim are the same oath that you want to cover up?"

    Actually, I would like to retract that statement, I posted a retraction on the other forum. Please go and read it at your leisure.
  293. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 9:51 pm
    I`ve seen crakr, he annoys me. And since I graduated with a bio major, and evolution, one of the most beautifully simple processes on earth, is both super awesome and one of my favorite subjects, I get annoyed with people that say ID is science. It sends us backwards, when evolution helps us with so much. It`s so, ridiculously easy to understand that I can`t understand the people that don`t get it.
    I understood evolution when I was a child. It`s that simple.
  294. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5483 posts
    September 14, 2011 at 10:00 pm
    Serpentchick, the problem is with many Christians like CrakrJak who is so adamantly against the evolutionary theory (which is also the same problem with many atheists like Madest), is they tend to think that evolution has some basis to confirm or deny the existence of God.

    Now, I don`t want to get off on some wild religious debate here, but whether a supreme being exists or not, has nothing to do with evolution. However, I tend to believe that supreme being utilized evolution to create life. I don`t see why that couldn`t have happened (not claiming that I have evidence, rather that I have faith).

    Many want to use evolutionary theories to make statements like, "See, Evolution is a real observable thing, God doesn`t exist!" or alternatively, "Evolution has no scientific basis, God exists!" I simply don`t understand these thought patterns at all.
  295. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 15, 2011 at 12:27 am
    Serpentchick: As I predicted, any effort to inform you would be a failure due to your predispositions.

    You believe darwinism is sacrosanct and irrefutable, that`s what your professors taught you to believe and you`ve never questioned that belief.

    I wonder what you would do if your own research were to result in the data not following `accepted theory`, I`m betting you would discard the original data and start over, possibly finding a way to manipulate the new data fit the model.

    Before you say, that wouldn`t happen, let me assure that it has happened, in every scientific field, it`s a historical fact.
  296. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 15, 2011 at 1:30 am
    I researched it before. And I was NEVER taught by my science teachers to not question. I was taught to question things, and understand them myself.
    YOU were taught by your church to not question things, which is why you assume the same thing of others. It`s not true.
    All the data that I`ve EVER seen IDers like yourself using is so utterly wrong, based on scientific experiments and data, that of course I don`t believe it.
    Again, in the SCIENTIFIC field, the one that makes the claim must back it up. If I claim there is a purple pokadotted unicorn in my livingroom, I have to prove it, not ask YOU to prove me wrong.
    I actually UNDERSTAND Darwin`s theory. YOU obviously don`t, but I do. I don`t have to question it anymore because I know enough to have a very firm grasp of the concept, and know it to be correct.
  297. Profile photo of Serpentchick
    Serpentchick Female 18-29
    379 posts
    September 15, 2011 at 1:33 am
    now, again, PROOF or GTFO, crakrjak. You want to claim it as science but then refuse to link to proof so it can be verified? Then it is not science. Science is nothing without evidence, and your precious book is NOT evidence.
    YOU are not a scientist by any definition, if that`s how you think science works.
    In science - we don`t have things we take on faith. We have actual knowledge, and just because you don`t understand it doesn`t make it wrong.
  298. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    September 15, 2011 at 7:52 am
    Forgive me if I don`t care to ride the merry-go-round every time this subject comes up.


    Say laddy why don`t ya waste your time elsewhere then? (Hint: you`re riding it right now!)
    Seriously Crakr your first was two days ago, you NEVER win these arguments on evolution, NEVER. So why do you even bother typing when you know your comment from two days ago is NOT going to be ignored? We ask you to back up your assertions, yet, in a way, you ask us to do it for you. Then when those arguments get refuted, you ad hominem the other side accusing us of narrow mindedness only to demonstrate such behavoir yourself. If you don`t care to ride this "merry-go-round" then just stop typing.
  299. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 16, 2011 at 3:55 pm
    You know what`s moonbatpoo crazy davymid? That you put yourself in the neutral. I`ve seen you go at it with CJ. You`re no different than any sane person whose skin he`s gotten under. Another crazy thing is, you equate a belief in aliens with a belief in God. Touting yourself as antithiest. Well how about this? I`m so anti-religion that I have no clue as to what thiest means nor am I interested enough to Google it. So I see your antithiety and raise you an I don`t give a crap.
  300. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 18, 2011 at 9:02 pm
    You know what`s moonbatpoo crazy davymid? That you put yourself in the neutral.
    Dude, is that a bad thing? I`m pretty sure that what you described is the very definition of "Moderator". Anyways, old thread is old, peace out.
  301. Profile photo of Nickel2
    Nickel2 Male 50-59
    5879 posts
    December 18, 2012 at 3:01 am
    Wow! looks like a big row going on here! May as well throw more fuel on this fire:
    Piltdown Man

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