Gay To Straight Therapy At Michele Bachman Clinic

Submitted by: kitteh9lives 6 years ago in

Patients accuse the clinic co-owned by Bachmann of trying to convert gay men to straight. Right or wrong I-A-B?
There are 385 comments:
Male 10,855
Also I`ve already cited this article

Text from abstract:
[quote">We conclude that, due to the methodological problems of extant studies, the basis for asserting the existence of relationships between habituation, sensitization, classical conditioning, operant conditioning, and sexual behavior is tenuous.[/quote">
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Male 10,855
[quote]So you are supporting 5cats assertion that nurture and conditioning are larger factors in determining sexual orientation[/quote]

If 5Cats interpretation of said experiment is true then we should`ve had a HIGHLY effective means of changing sexual behavoir. Since the first experiment has been performed we don`t even have a way of curing pedophilia. Furthermore Skinner`s experiment have thus far have mostly been applicable towards improving childhood education than anything else.

As for the Spitzer study even Spitzer himself had doubtful remarks about it:
"It was very hard to find only 200 highly motivated subjects.
...
There maybe homosexuals who can change but they are very rare."
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Male 2,729
ITs a shame that Bachmann can even be considered as canidate for President.
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Male 71
what. do. people. not. understand? being gay is not, I REPEAT NOT, a choice. it really is simple. if you say same sex attraction is a choice, you are wrong. there is no debate to be had. i might as well argue that up is down.

i hope that`s cleared it up for people.
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Male 38
The big "scandal" here is that (1) Bachman is scamming the government by taking Medicare funds for make-believe medicine and (2) she`s a hypocrite for taking funding she`s previously condemned. Where is the Republican and Tea Party outrage over this criminal squandering of public monies?
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Male 10,855
[quote]Do they tell Alcoholics or Drug abusers the statistics of success or failure before they go to rehab ?[/quote]

Again those are serious functional problems so it makes sense not to.
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Male 15
Im sorry but being a homosexual male I would have to declare the more experience in this matter compared to CrakrJak and 5cats.
Homosexuality is not a choice and it is to do with your DNA and genetic make up.
I`m sure any monkey on reward of treats would do just what you wanted as long as it meant a reward on the other end, just because the monkey did gay acts doesn`t mean it is gay. Try to understand that.
Or more better watch this video and educate your ignorant selves before throwing around half-baked and misguided ideas. www.youtube.com/watch?v=NarI0URhWg0
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Male 2,868
The Bachmanns using "patient confidentiality" as an excuse for avoiding answering questions about the services they provide is total bullsh*t. HIPAA prevents them from divulging information about WHOM they`ve treated. If they don`t want to talk about it, then they should just say that, but using such a feeble excuse is insulting to everyone`s intelligence, and makes it look like they`ve got something to hide.
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Female 22
You can`t cure something that isn`t an illness, because there`s nothing to cure.
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Male 17,512
Serpentchick: So you are supporting 5cats assertion that nurture and conditioning are larger factors in determining sexual orientation, In short it`s a choice as he and I`ve said all along.

Thanks for that affirmation.
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Male 17,512
Cajun: Do they tell Alcoholics or Drug abusers the statistics of success or failure before they go to rehab ? Of course they don`t, and they don`t tell them because it helps set them up for failure and reinforces the belief that they can`t succeed.

99.99% of elementary school athletes will never make it to become professional athletes, Do you wish to crush all those kids dreams by telling them that statistic ? I think not.
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Male 39,614

5Cats - not silly at all. haven`t you ever heard of `acting out subconsciously` or `subconsciously desire to punish yourself` etc. Go read a textbook and stop relying on Wiki
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Female 379
Things besides DNA affect us at birth. Chemicals, hormones, what your mom ate, epigenes, etc. Not just a "gay gene".
Also, considering the fact that loads od animals, the ones with parental care, use their parents for templates as to what a mate should look/smell/sound like depending on species (that`s why there are soo many cichid fish species on lake victoria) so most behavioral things are difficult to isolate with regards to study how they come to be. No parents = no idea who to mate with.
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Male 40,375
vv now you`re just being silly @Gerry, go read Wiki.

vv Skinner didn`t try to prove anything about sexual orientation (most of his work was in the 60`s & 70`s eh?) He DID prove that sexual function is not instinctive (genetic is practically the same thing) as was believed. Thus monkies aren`t "born hetero" they learn it!
These experiments were repeated a LOT and were very consistant in their results.

To say someone is "born straight" would require "straight DNA" and be seen as "instinctively straight" m-kay. It`s not the case for heteros. How could it be that way for any other orientation?
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Male 39,614
5Cats [quote]"UN-conscious. It`s the correct term. It means the same thing. " [/quote]

Not the same at all. Unconscious is to have to be unaware, lacking cognitave ability.

Subconscious is the idea that your mind is making all kinds of choices and causing behavior without your knowledge.

You might dream while unconscious, but the dream does not cause you to sabotage your relationship. theoretically, the subconscious does that poo.

subconscious = myth
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Male 10,855
Seeing as how I can`t find any article on "skinner box monkeys" here are my counter points:
+Spitzer`s study on ex-gays suffers from various methodological problems and results are therefore invalid.
+The Skinner Box experiments do not adequately explain how it is possible to change sexual behavoir in humans.
ERGO: Not enough empirical evidence to support the claim that human sexuality can be changed artificially.
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Female 4,086
michele bachman and sarah palin make me ashamed to be a woman. its unbelievable the level of stupidity and avarice that achieve elected office.
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Male 10,855
[quote] should a person who feels un-well be allowed to seek counciling?[/quote]

The people deserve to know the success rates BEFORE they enter the program, and right now they`re very slim.
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Male 10,855
I`m beginning to doubt what the specimens learned in the Skinner Boxes was in fact a sexual orientation, it seems to me they actually learned how to engage in penetrative sex. Once out of the confines of the boxes they`ll be free to explore their sexuality.

Then there are problems with Spitzer`s study as Reganom pointed out which essentially prevent it from being indicator towards all homosexuals.
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Male 40,375
[quote]The real argument here is, it it OK to be gay?[/quote]
No, actually @SubstanceD, (PK Dick Refrence! A Scanner Darkly) the arguement is: should a person who feels un-well be allowed to seek counciling?
Funny how gender corrective surgery IS allowed without ANY of the rigorous trials & etc advocated by @Cajun & @Reganom, eh? But counciling = forbidden? Where do you come up with that?

Skinner Boxes aren`t perfect, no test or study is. But what it does prove beyond any doubt is the lack of instincts in areas we once thought were purely instinctive. "Motherhood Insticnt" is still widely believed, even by feminists! lolz!

"Gayness has been around for ages" is NOT a valid arguement, since LOTS of things have also been which are NOT good for individuals or society as a whole, eh?
Gayness causes no harm IS valid, fyi...
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Male 1,646
ROFLMAOF I would love to bump into Mr.Bachmann and show him how "uneducated" I really am; Good knight Christians are fu/cking retards.
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Male 76
@JoexBro

Good point brining up the Greeks as well. They have a lot of homosexuality in their mythology too. Achilles and Patroclus come to mind as a homosexual mythological couple.

And if anyone says "Well that was thousands of years ago" you should probably take a look at the age of your holy scripture.
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Male 557
I should really read through my posts before i post them and correct things

for each son born***

There is an increased likelihood of the 5th son being gay**

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Male 557
for each son** born*
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Male 557
@ SubstanceD
It was actually even the Greeks before them that had wives but preferred sexual male partners, it was go to your buddies house, get naked and oiled up, wrestle and have some but sekz

Also there is research out that it shows it is a chemical the woman produces. Say she has 100 units of this, for each some born she loses some of this chemical. So if she has 5 sons the likelehood of the 5th son being gay. Of course sometimes the first son is gay. It definitely is not predominantly choice.
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Male 76
And, in relation to god, if he does exist. Whatever god you chose to believe in (and that is a choice), why would he put gay people on the earth if he wanted you to hate them, wouldn`t acceptance be more benefiting for any of his creatures?
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Male 76
was gay, one of the greatest minds of our times. Hundreds of artists, singers, song writers, great rulers, movie stars, TV actors, people who entertain you all share this in common. Hundreds are straight as well.

Why must we judge a person on their sexual preference, and not their ability? Why is it such a big thing?

What does it hurt you to live in a world when people of the same sex enjoy each others company in a sexual way?

Your sexual identity is a tiny thing that makes up a part of who you are. It does not define you. I think that`s what ignorant people miss...
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Male 76
Yes, there are certain people out there who are more predisposed to murder/stealing what have you, is that a choice? That`s not the debate, but it`s a big nature vs nurture argument I`m not going to get in to.

Does homosexuality hurt anyone, or hinder anything in any way? No. Is it un-natural? No. Is it a choice? Under certain circumstances, yes, predominantly, no. I`m certain that some people do choose to be gay. That is their own business, but I`d hazard a guess that in the majority of homosexuals it is not a choice.

Homosexuality is even inherent in nature. Koalas in captivity are more likely to form lesbian relationships. Male dogs have sex with each other to establish dominance, monkeys do it just for fun. Animals don`t have choice, reason, morals or any of these higher concepts, yet it`s still OK for them.

Lets say there is a god, homosexuality has been around since roman times. It wasn`t odd for roman men to take male lovers, it is thought that Da Vani
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Male 76
Oh man is there a lot of crazy here.

Let`s remove religion from the argument for a second. I mean any faith based upon any book is sure to do nothing but hurt your arguments. I`m not just talking about a Christian religion here, I`m speaking about all religions.

Next, lets remove the counselling. That is a choice, is it a wise or a good choice? That depends on your point of view and your motives. Be it based on religion or peer pressure or an actual internal desire, that is your choice.

The real argument here is, it it OK to be gay?

The crux of every bodies argument stems from there. I`m not just talking about male/male relationships, the whole spectrum. Female/female as well.

Without religion people still have a sense of right and wrong. Murder is bad, helping is good. I don`t think you could ask a single soul on the planet and not get any other answer. We`re internally designed to help each other and not hinder.
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Male 995
Been through 15 pages and had quite a laugh, specially at Crak`s trolling, always a sight to see.
As expected, the narrow-mindness reduces to determinism vs choice. I think that it`s probably determined but in any case, if it were a choice, what`s the problem? Why do extremely macho straight men get so uptight about it? You are extremely macho straight men, what do you care? If two men consent to have relations, why should you moan about it? It can`t be envy, can it? It`s not going to change you, extremely macho straight man, so why get your knickers in a twist? It shouldn`t affect you in any way
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Male 4,902
Wow, the comments just WOW
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Female 379
Except it IS the religious right that`s more likely to abuse a gay child. I don`t know about you, but the left is usually more understanding about this sort of thing. Well, to be fair the only things my mom won`t forgive me for is getting in a car with a drunk driver, and becoming republican (not that I ever would). It`s the religious right that`s against gay marriage to begin with, so if you DON`T think that side is likely to talk down to gay people you`re ignoring the world.
I`m not saying ALL of the religious right would do so, but they are more likely to be that sort of people. At least the ex vice president acknowledges his lesbian daughter (the only thing I like him for), but remember how big a deal it was back when it came out? What does that tell you?
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Male 17,512
markust: [quote]I don`t need the negativity in my life.[/quote]

Then don`t type negativity, from the comfort of your computer chair, and it won`t comeback at you.

The hateful comment you made about the `religious right` was wrong and you should`ve known better.
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Male 10,855
Another big problem with Skinner`s experiments:

Skinner at first acknowledges that because we can`t observe the inner workings of the mind he could only document the actions the animals took. Since it is not possible to 100% know what those desires are it would be a misinterpretation of the scenario. Furthermore, once the animals are no longer IN the boxes there is nothing to stop them from engaging in sexual activity with other males due to a lack of reinforcement towards a desired orientation.
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Male 4,859
While I`m at it I`m not going to read anything by or in response to CrakrJak either. Same reason, I don`t need the negativity in my life. Life is too short for such ridiculousness.
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Male 4,859
I`m done with 5Cats. He twists everyones words around so he can argue points the people didn`t make. I don`t need the negativity in my life.
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Male 10,855
from my article:

[quote]Skinner is making the big assumption that general laws relating to the behavior of animals can be applied to describe the complex relations in the human world.[/quote]
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Male 10,855
I was going to mention it before Reganom got to it.

But other points:

[quote] To try to `spin` it with that caveat is weak at best, deceitful at worst.[/quote]

Such a stance is being totally oblivious towards organizations such as Soulforce, Episcopalian church, and al-Fatihah. Your rebuttal is woefully dishonest.

[quote]Well that`s far from true as some religions condone killing a girl for walking with a boy, eh?[/quote]

It was and is STILL not condoned in the United States. Nice try 5Cats but you took my comment out of context.
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Male 12,138
Wow, got through reading all the comments. Not going to join the debate (putting my "moderator" hat on now, most of you know where I stand on it anyways). But just wanted to say, sincerely, that it relieved my boredom for a good long time.

Thanks to everyone, on both sides, for taking the time and energy to comment and for keeping it (for the most part!) very civil.

Good debate.
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Female 1,101
Not right. Not wrong. Illogical.
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Male 505
5Cats:

I wouldn`t classify those points as just a disagreement with the study, those are problems with the methodology, quite important ones at that. Those weren`t just disagreements with the conclusion.

Yes it looks at people who wanted to change, with out any sort of control, method of verification or valid sample. It would be like conducting a drug trial on those that wanted the drug to pass and only them.
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Male 40,375
Fine, fine, UN-conscious. It`s the correct term. It means the same thing. Please change all my subs to uns.

@Reganom - I didn`t claim it was perfect! And try to find a study, any study! that someone, somewhere doesn`t agree with.
It`s also the largest study of it`s kind.
It looks at people who wanted to change! duh! NO ONE here is saying gay people can (or should!) be converted against their will. Not me, not Crackr, not anyone!

Good nighty!
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Male 505
""Spitzer acknowledged that the study sample consisted of people who sought treatment primarily because of their religious beliefs (93% of the sample), served in various church-related functions, and who publicly spoke in favor of changing homosexual orientation (78%), and thus were strongly motivated to overreport success""

"Critics could not help notice his dismissal of this source of bias, without even attempting to measure deception or self-deception (a standard practice in self-reporting psychological tests like MMPI-2)."

With quite a few more reasons that it is not a very useful study.

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Male 505
[quote]@markust: Robert Spitzer For one found "successful change" in 66% of males & 44% of females. This was a survey of people who`d undergone therapy, not his therapy done by himself, eh? Still... [/quote]

"telephonic interviews with 200 people who claimed"

"The Post reported that “[s]ome 43 percent of the sample had been referred to Spitzer by ‘ex-gay ministries,’” while “an additional 23 percent were referred by the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality.”"

"The paper has been criticized for its sampling methods and criteria for success." (after being peer reviewed)


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Male 39,614
@5Cats

Dreaming is the unconscious state. awake is the conscious.
There is no sub-conscious.
Freud came up with that theory to prove to the world he was not a pervert when he really was.

Some phycs still like the sub-C but many debate it`s existance now. Freuds been pushed off his pedestal.

no trolling, the is no sub-conscious
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Male 40,375
(the tune is "Beverly Hillbillies" of course)
(I made this up while whizzing just now)

Now listen to a story
About a man named Freud
A poor psychoanalist
tryin to keep his family fed
Then one day he was shooting some bullsh*t
And up from his sub-conscious came some Freudian Theories!
Pro-jection!
Electra Complex!

Well the first thing you know
Old Freud`s really famous!
His countrymen said Sigmund move away from here!
They said: We`re Nazis now
and we hate folks like you!
So he packed up his books and he moved to
20 Maresfield Gardens, Hampstead, London, UK!
Swimmin pools!
British folks!
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Male 40,375
See, I`m trolling you about the "gay DNA" since I know for a fact none exists, m-kay?

The sub-conscious is the biggest part of our physical brain. It accounts for learning, memory, judgement, a host of other things.

(not "judgement" like: I find this artwork delightful! but things like: I`d like an apple right now. Tiny decisions made behind the scenes)

So everything you think you know has come from your (wait for it) SUB-conscious! It`d take 2 years of University study to fully explain it, and I am far from an expert, but it`s true!

Unless it`s instinctive, which as I say you can count adult human instincts on one hand... and sexuality isn`t one of them.
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Male 40,375
[quote]The sub-conscious does not exist. It`s a myth.[/quote]
When you sleep at night @gerry, what do you see? Dreams? Tell me again how it doesn`t exist.

Y`all be trolling, right?

Got some Gay DNA for me yet?
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Male 40,375
[quote]Markust made a blanket statement about ALL religious families - Crackr
Nope just the religious right. - Cajun[/quote]

Nope! Sorry but you`re wrong @Cajun. Markust`s posting clearly said the good family was NOT religious, and the evil family was. To try to `spin` it with that caveat is weak at best, deceitful at worst.
@Markusts` view of what constitutes the "RR" is: anyone who doesn`t agree with him. That`s an awful big slice of Christianity I`d say. Also includes ALL the Muslims, but not many Jews...

Cajun: no one want to beat up a pregnent child? Well that`s far from true as some religions condone killing a girl for walking with a boy, eh?
My birth mother was 16 when I popped out in 1963. Trust me, "stigma" hardly describes what she went through.
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Male 39,614

@5Cats "it`s not a conscious choice, it`s SUB-conscious."

The sub-conscious does not exist. It`s a myth. Pop psychology from 100 years ago without one piece of evidence to prove it`s existence.

even if the sub-conscious did exist, the fact that it is SUB-conscious means there is no conscious choice. You can`t sub-consciously decide anything. Decision making is done on the conscious level.
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Male 40,375
[quote] Fat kids aren`t told they are going to go to hell for being fat. Goth`s aren`t targeted for murder by murder by bigots. Nerds aren`t ostracized by their entire family for being nerdy.[/quote]
@xiquiripat: AHAHHAHA! What planet are YOU from?

[quote]If a gay child...[/quote]
Um, how does one determine that exactly @markust123? This offering of yours is so full of poo, your credibility is shredded, sorry. This fantasy world you dwell in is made up of loving atheists evil Christians, it is so far from reality it`s obvious you`re lost.
Is it your balck/white worldview? Is it your absolute certainty Christains are all evil? Is it your amazing ability to predict the future so accurately? idk, but you`ve crossed over to the funneh zone.
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Male 40,375
@NottaSpy: "I own a grey cat, therefor all cats are grey?"
Well YES ACTUALLY! (it`s a music video.) And there`s your proof!

Ugh, back to serious:
The whole "loss of hope" thing argued about 5-6 pages ago? Almost ALL the other `causes` of suicide NottaSpy & Cajun talked about could be generalized as "loss of hope". Untreated depression IS lost hope. Y`all are barking up the wrong tree there.
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Male 358
Mr. Bachman is totally gay. It seems like the biggest anti-gay advocates often are...
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Male 40,375
Go count them @fiizok! I`m amused that you`re so easily amused!
I think you`ll find @Cajun to be the leader, but I`ve only read half the postings thus far.
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Male 40,375
Since you`re up for that sort of thing @Gerry, find me proof it`s 100% genetic. Find me some "gay DNA" because even 1% not genetic = choice.
And I`ve already offered proof that heterosexuality is learned, NOT instinctive, NOT genetic.

Face the fact: if hetero is learned, HOW can homo not be learned also?

You can pile all the "predispositions" you like on the matter, for homo or hetero or even RC Cola: it still never adds up to 100% and therefor it is learned!
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Male 591
[quote]322 comments? Holy balls!!![/quote]

Any guess as to the percentage that came from CrakrJak and 5Cats? I`m amused that this subject seems to be so extremely important to them.
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Male 40,375
@Gerry1of1: it`s not a conscious choice, it`s SUB-conscious. One doesn`t wake up one day and think "Hey! I`ve decided to have an amputee fetish for the rest of my life!" m-kay? There`s a little-understood process of `windows` and `triggers` and whatnot.
So it`s simply not possible to consciously over-ride a sub-conscious choice "just like that" *snaps fingers*
It MAY BE possible to do so with therapy & stuff, but that would take time and a desire by the subject to want to change is critical!

@markust: Robert Spitzer For one found "successful change" in 66% of males & 44% of females. This was a survey of people who`d undergone therapy, not his therapy done by himself, eh? Still...

Basic point: If YOU don`t want to change, you`re not likely to BE changed.
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Female 379
as a biology note - birds actually (instinctively) learn the stars for guidance when migrating. If you raise them in a planetarium, and teach them that a different combination of stars indicate north, they`ll try to go a different direction. Migration is so genetic, actually, that hybrids will go to the area between the two parent species migration areas. HOWEVER, due to the presence of hummingbird feeders, the migration of some hummingbirds has been changed drastically in just a few generations. (recent bio grad here)
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Male 39,614
@5Cats

I`m just calling people on their statements.
If it`s a choice...prove it and go make the choice.

I say it`s not so I can`t choose to go straight.

So put your mouth where your mouth is and make the choice.
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Male 10,855
Aha here`s an article that backs my point.
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Male 4,859
"Through therapy they (60%) came to realize they weren`t in fact "gay"

I`ve never heard of a number higher than 3%. Link please.
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Male 12,138
322 comments? Holy balls!!!
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Male 40,375
Of course I agree @Cajun, it`s a seperate issue from `gayness` BUT that one Canadian guy found a LOT of it in the "gay community" eh?
Also that guy was the one who championed the removal homosexuality from the list of "mental disorders" so I highly doubt he`s anti-gay, eh?

The Skinner Box experiments have been done hundrends of thousands of times over the past 50 odd years. With thousands of variations of course. What he found was duplicated every time, raise a baby monkey in a Box and it`s one messed-up monkey!
But the concept of "instinct" (closely related to DNA btw) was completely discredited for a lot of things.

NOW we know that Geese don`t "fly south by instinct" at all, but they DO have the instinct to "flock together" and follow older birds, which leads to them learning to fly south!

I`m off to eat weiners & beans! Later!
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Male 10,855
...and I can`t find any links to back your assertions.
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Male 10,855
As far as I can tell there are a LOT of other variables unaccounted for with your skinner box experiment. So it`s too early to say that sexual orientation can be learned.
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Male 10,855
@5Cats

Ego-dystonic sexual orientation is a mental disorder and not every gay male has it. It is a separate concept so not everyone can un-learn their sexual orientation.

I`d still like to see a link to your Skinner box experiment.
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Male 40,375
Exactly @Cajun, but if you`d have asked them 1 month before therapy "are you gay" they`d have said "yes I am".
One month after therapy was over? Different answers. That`s part of my point: one can un-learn one`s sexual orientation, but it`s not easy!
Is the "cure" worse than the "problem"? I`ve said before that it likely is, in some cases, but obviously not all.

No, it was a monkey with a hard-on and not knowing what to do with it. The females had similar results: unsucessful mating. They`d hump various objects in their cages with better results!
At the time "all sex" was thought to be "instinctive" (thanks to Freud!) and this utterly dis-proved that.
From there it`s only logical: if it`s not instinct, it HAS TO be learned! QED!
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Male 10,855
[quote]even though the desire was `obviously there`[/quote]


...and it was desire to mate with said female right?
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Male 40,375
Well, I love my brother, does that count?
As I say, it`s not a conscious choice, easily overturned, it`s sub-conscious and hard to find, let alone change!

Sleep tight @Cajun!

I`m off to find food too, and hopefully read the rest of the comments with little or no posting ;-) about them!
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Male 10,855
[quote]Through therapy they (60%) came to realize they weren`t in fact "gay" and were free to "become hetero"[/quote]

It`s called ego-dystonic sexual orientation.
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Male 40,375
[quote]if a dude molested a male child all the time he`d have messed up feelings too, that doesn`t make homosexuality a choice[/quote]
BING! BING! We have a winner!
See the guy who started much of the "converting gays" thing did in fact work with men who had been molested as children. They thought that `made them gay` and lived the "gay lifestyle" accordingly, but were extremely unhappy. Through therapy they (60%) came to realize they weren`t in fact "gay" and were free to "become hetero" (note: they actually were hetero, but confused and self-identified as gays) some 20% chose to remain gay or bi- and the other 20% dropped out or were really messed up. Not by the therapy so much, just by drugs, suicide, jail or whatever.

@Cajun: the monkies in Skinners early experiments couldn`t successfully mate with a female in heat. They were generally confused about all things sexual, even though the desire was `obviously there`.
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Male 10,855
Well I guess I can sleep well knowing that no one can prove that sexual orientation can be affected by artificial means.

See you later.
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Female 379
hey, I didn`t say have sex with them, I said fall in love. TOTALLY DIFFERENT
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Female 379
so I`m finally home, where there is food and pets and all manner of things to entertain me more than a flame war, so peace out y`all

As a leaving note - of all the people that said it`s a choice, not one of them said they could chose to like a different gender.

I`m a chick, and I can recognize that angelina jolie is attractive, but I don`t feel the same when I see her vs. when I see johnny depp (Yes I`m a depp fan, he`s hot and funny)
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Male 40,375
It`s not a conscious choice @Cajun! lolz! Nobody "chooses" to have a foot-fetish, do they? Yet it happens.

Ditto @SerpentChick: I couldn`t "choose" to engage in mutual sexual gratifiction `on the spot` eh? Perhaps in time, after getting to know each other and forming a trust bond that`s really strong, we could.
I could "learn to be gay" same as anyone learns anything. It wouldn`t be easy, but I haven`t had a date in a while...

Plus I`d jump the bones of about half the women I know given half a chance! lolz! I joke, it`s maybe 15%... and 1/4 of a chance...

Sweet dreams @Cajun!

Hey @Gerry: go get humped by a horse! Others have done it, they say it`s great! You never know until you`re tried it!
Then try some auto-erotic axphixiation, David Carradine says it`s `to die for!` (lolz!)
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Male 39,614

5cats [quote]"yes! I am qualified to offer my $0.02 on the subject! I have a BA!" [/quote]

and who said you couldn`t?

But I can laugh at your ramblings if I like.

If you truley believe it`s a choice, then prove it.
Go Gay. Go smoke a sausage or get your fudge packed.
But to be gay you have to enjoy it.

Don`t worry, It`s just for scientific purposes.
You can convert back later on .... it`s a choice after all, right?
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Female 379
And i`m fairly certain if a dude molested a male child all the time he`d have messed up feelings too, that doesn`t make homosexuality a choice
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Male 10,855
[quote]Actually @Cajun the Skinner Box mostly showed that several things are NOT "instinctive" like mothering, sexuality & etc.[/quote]

Including sexual orientation?
Please include empirical evidence.
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Male 40,375
Actually @Cajun the Skinner Box mostly showed that several things are NOT "instinctive" like mothering, sexuality & etc.
It blew a big hole in the mostly Fruedian world of that time.

I can assure you we can make perverts out of mice, very easily! An ex-gf worked with mice counting sperm, they`d get little mousie boners when she`d bring out the sperm-slurping device, sickening, eh? (poor mousies!)
Other experiments showed fetish behaviour so extreme the mice couldn`t "get it up" without their little blue jackets on. Even with a red jacket on - no go! Had to be blue...
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Male 10,855
Well seeing that I have not seen empirical evidence to indicate that people can choose whatever orientation they want, I`m done here.


"See ya next time!"
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Female 379
So 5cats, if i put a decently attractive man in front of you and told you to choose to fall in love with him, you could do it?
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Female 379
To be fair i also don`t have a problem with polygamy, assuming all are consenting adults. It just makes the marriage law, benefits, etc. Rediculously complicated
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Male 40,375
*sigh*
Everything IS a choice: IF (big if) you are capable of choosing!
A parapalegic cannot "choose" to move his legs.
A depressed person cannot "choose" to "just be happy" (Lord how I`ve tried!)

Thus a 1 month old baby cannot "choose" between Democrat or Republican (for a silly example) since it lacks the ability to read, form opinions, type on the internet & etc.

Thus someone in a coma CANNOT choose anything! But you or I can, m-kay?

Like choosing to stay up late typing at IAB and showing up for work all bleary-eyed (like I did Monday night/ Tuesday morning! lolz!)

Even if you`re geneticly disposed to something (like @Carckr likely is) you can still choose to NOT do it! (like @Crackr has, good for him!).

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Male 10,855
I`ll say it again:

As far as your skinner box claim goes there are indeed somethings we can teach into other kids, but there are things as, pointed in this discussion, cannot.
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Male 10,855
[quote]pedophilia, polygamy, necrophilia, gang rape[/quote]

...and these things ARE problems and should be dealt with.

[quote]We can teach sexual deviation to mice, eh?[/quote]

As far as I can tell that`s an unverified claim.

As far as your BA goes I`ll take APA and APsychA over one expert. But hey see if you can change their minds.
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Female 379
You`re righr, there are loads of bad behaviors, but as homosexuality is just as natural as heterosexuality, and neither one hurts people, both should be equally accepted
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Male 40,375
[quote]It is natural, and has been observed in animals.[/quote]
Sorry @SerpentChick, but so has pedophilia, polygamy, necrophilia, gang rape, and a host of other things I DO NOT WANT in my society. Oh I don`t care if gays are in society, they`re harmless enough! I mean other `natural things animals do` m-kay? That arguement always makes me lol!

Dang, I`ll never read pages 2-6 at this rate!

@Gerry1of1 - I know you`re being light-hearted, but really we`re talking about "human sexuality" and/or "human psychological developement" so yes! I am qualified to offer my $0.02 on the subject! I have a BA!

@Cajun: goto bed! lolz! Skinner Box, it`s an amazing thing. Also no one clearly understands even as basic a concept as "how we learn" let alone how fetishes are formed. We can teach sexual deviation to mice, eh? Who knows how we humans turn out the way we do...
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Male 10,855
Also if homosexuals have been "conditioned" (which I find to be BS) to be that would ultimately mean it wasn`t their choice in the first place.
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Female 329
12 pages... Jeez. I`ll just say wrong, but not a prison conversion camp or anything like that so whatever.
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Male 10,855
[quote]So NO not everyone can `take their own life`[/quote]

Wow you just contradicted yourself.
Earlier you said:

[quote]Everything is a choice[/quote]

Maybe not said agreed with it.
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Male 10,855
@5Cats

As I already mentioned homosexuals aren`t being confined to a controlled enviroment and being conditioned to fall in love with other males. They`re in an open system where ANYTHING can happen to them.
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Female 379
Hey, i`m straight, i just ordered my wedding cake for my marriage to a great guy. Not all straight people think it`s a choice. I`ve talked to gay/lesbian/bi/whatever people, and listened when they said it isn`t a choice. I couldn`t like women if i wantes to
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Male 40,375
[quote]I didn`t choose to get murdered,[/quote]
Well @Cajun, YOU didn`t DO the murdering DID YOU? Duh! This hair-splitting is beneath you.

[quote]So the children you work with regularly... can take their own life at any time[/quote]
Sorry to cut up your quote there, but it highlights my reply: My kids cannot ride a 2-wheeler yet, but they can LEARN how! Thus they (happily!) do not understand depression or suicide yet either. So NO not everyone can `take their own life`. Dr. Kovorkian would be out of a job if that were true!

I do understand (I think!) what you`re trying to say but it rings my "defend children" alarm bells. I hope my reply isn`t too nasty.

Yes @markust123, I remember you mentioning that. For me stress is a HUGE trigger, and I`m easily stressed, sadly. Venting on IAB is a sort of stress relief :-) as are purring cats.
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Male 39,614

it`s funny how all the straight people seem to be such authorities on how gay people got gay.

from my own modest experience being a gay boy who didn`t want to be one, I can assure you that I had about as much choice in being gay as Samual L. Jackson has about being black.

but then, thinking of Michael Jackson, maybe they have more choice than I had.
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Female 379
It`s not so much the DNA as it is developement in the womb, and possibly epigenes which we`re still learning about. It is natural, and has been observed in animals. It doesn`t hurt anyone, and should not be punished.
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Male 10,855
Yeah because last I checked homosexuals aren`t being conditioned to love men and there is NO evidence to say they are.
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Male 10,855
[quote]In fact EVERY study of the formation of sexual orientation (real studies that is, not "lets prove gayness is natural" studies) along with a host of other "instincts" are in fact learned.[/quote]

I`d like to see that.
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Male 40,375
[quote]there is no empirical evidence to say that sexual orientation is a choice.[/quote]
@Cajun247 that is 100% absolutely WRONG! In fact EVERY study of the formation of sexual orientation (real studies that is, not "lets prove gayness is natural" studies) along with a host of other "instincts" are in fact learned.
Skinner Box: lookitup!

[quote]Yeah it`s called brain damage.[/quote]
Actually @Cajun, recent studies have shown alcohol does not cause brain cells to die after all! Unless you get alcohol poisoning, which is an entirely different thing eh? And the withdrawl from alcoholism does cause some braincell death, but not much really. Just fyi!

[quote]You picked a bad example also[/quote]
Oh @NottaSpy: you just gave another example of `predisposition` as "proof" that I`m wrong... you obviously fail to understand: there is NO gay "DNA" only (possibly) predispositions...
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Male 10,855
[quote]Speaking of dinner, I`m going to end things here.[/quote]

FINALLY, I need to go bed soon for my graveyard shift.
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Male 4,859
5Cats, you mentioned that you are suicidal. Getting into these flame wars is not going to help you get happy. I was depressed and marginally suicidal a couple years back. I was able to resolve all my problems but could never shake the depression. What I finally figured out was causing it was my obsession with Opinion Media. If you rid your life of Cable News, watchdog sites and partisan talk radio it does wonders. About three months after I did this my depression vanished and I have been happy ever since. My life is night and day. If you are interested I`ll tell you how I was able to break free from opinion media. It is not easy.
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Male 10,855
Then again Gene Robinson didn`t go through a nasty divorce after he came out.

What was the phrase?

"We released our vows"

That "released" not "renounced".
Come to think of it I`d like to read that story.
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Male 10,855
[quote]and somethings about my own personality I did not choose.[/quote]

Even Crakr points that out. I didn`t even choose my own family history.
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Male 10,855
[quote]as a suicidal person I can assure you that "living" is indeed a daily choice.[/quote]

So the children you work with regularly said "wow living`s awesome" before they even had a consciousness? Anyone can take their own life at any time, once they do, they`re NOT getting it back.

Everything is a choice? I didn`t choose to grow up with the moderate parents but I`m very glad I did. I didn`t choose to get murdered, and somethings about my own personality I did not choose.
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Female 379
I`m pretty sure having a dysfunctional family because the dad has to lie to himself and everyone else every day is worse for the kid
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Male 10,855
[quote]Do you think that doesn`t cause problems for that kid ? [/quote]

ANY divorce will.
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Male 40,375
@Cajun247: ""Living is a choice." No, suicide is a choice."" - as a suicidal person I can assure you that "living" is indeed a daily choice.

@BigDaddyJeff: "Everything is a choice. I mean it, EVERYTHING" - exactly correct my friend! You can count human `instincts` on one hand, the rest is choice, perhaps predisposed, but STILL a choice.

@xiquiripat: "your cousin is lying to herself" - Thank you for your psycic powers! Since you obviously know her mind better than herself, her relatives or anyone else! Hey @xiquiri: can you read MY MIND too?

off to page 7!
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Male 10,855
[quote]And homosexual sex isn`t a `dangerous activity` given the prevalence of STDs among them ?[/quote]

No, unprotected sex is a dangerous activity. That is why people have STDs.
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Male 4,859
"And tell me how that is any different than a nerdy kid growing up in a family full of jocks?"

It is completely different. In your situation the family is tormenting the kid but they are not telling him he is going to hell for being a nerd. His church is not telling him that he is wrong because he is a jock - they would be accepting of him. The only abuse is coming from within the family. Not also from the community. When a child is raised in the religious right he has nowhere to turn for support. He is getting dumped on in all situations he is in. It is a constant barrage of negativity against something he has absolutely no control over. And since he is going to hell anyway you have removed the threat that if you kill yourself you will go to hell. This adds to the temptation to just end it all.
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Female 379
If you tell a kid, and his parents tell him, and his classmates tell him, and his religious leader tell him he`s wrong, that`s going to cause suicide at a higher rate than not tipping. If you`re wondering why i`m posting, i`s cause i`m bored on the bus.
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Male 17,512
Speaking of dinner, I`m going to end things here.
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Male 17,512
Serpentchick: So what you are saying is that if I don`t tip my waiter/waitress tonight at dinner and they feel depressed about it and go slit their wrists than I`m at fault for that ?

I guess we all have to be cheerleaders for homosexuals now or else we are all guilty of murder.
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Female 379
Your right, if only decades of being told he was wrong didnt cause the dad to hide his sexuality and pretend he was something he`s not
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Male 17,512
Cajun: And homosexual sex isn`t a `dangerous activity` given the prevalence of STDs among them ?

What about the kid in high school who`s dad came out of the closet, divorced his wife and married another guy. Do you think that doesn`t cause problems for that kid ?
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Female 379
The 10 pages are really just crakr saying homosexuality is not normal and it`s ok if telling them that leads to suicide.
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Male 2,593
What do you expect when you go to a christian counseling clinic
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Male 17,512
markust: And tell me how that is any different than a nerdy kid growing up in a family full of jocks ?

Abuse does not solely come from the religious right, In fact people that are of the religious right have to take a lot of abuse, especially here at IAB.
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Male 10,855
An alcoholic CAN NOT properly function in society, he leans on alcohol as an emotional crutch, a VERY DANGEROUS activity.

Whereas a homosexual can lean on their SPOUSE for emotional support just like any heterosexual.
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Male 40,375
252 replies already? How can this even happen?
Off to read 10 pages of... bickering? Flames? Name calling?
All of the above I`m guessing.
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Male 10,855
[quote] An alcoholic obviously doesn`t think they have a problem either[/quote]

But an alcoholic CAN cause problems for other people.
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Male 10,855
[quote]therefor winning with reason is impossible[/quote]

I won`t go as far as to say as someone already won, but I think Crakr needs to take whatever`s left of his dignity and go to another thread already.
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Male 17,512
Cajun: An alcoholic obviously doesn`t think they have a problem either, until someone else tells them it is. And i can tell you many alcoholics will tell the person telling them it`s a problem, that they are full of sh|t too.

Therapy rarely works if it`s forced on someone, That person has to want to change.
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Male 10,855
[quote]The stigma of unwed teenage motherhood, for example, was no less hurtful and damaging 40 years ago as homosexuality was 30 years ago.[/quote]

I would really like to see empirical evidence to back that. But as far as I could tell, no one would want to beat up a pregnant child, whereas some effeminate man-loving fag is in totally different boat.
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Female 379
Cajun, i`d advise dropping it. Crakr thinks he and his book are infailable, therefor winning with reason is impossible. His fingers are in his ears and he`s going "lalala i`m not listening ur an idiot cause i say so lulz" so whatever. He can go on being a biggot, and we can spend time fixing all the social problems people like him leave in their wake. The end.
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Male 4,859
"markust: You sir made the claim that religious families would ..emotional(ly) abusing... and the child will grow up with all sorts of emotional problems related to his sexuality, As if it that was true of all religious families."

I didn`t say all religious families I said the religious right. There are a lot of wonderful religious organizations that accept, unconditionally, gays and Lesbians as God`s children`s. As you have demonstrated over and over we would be hard pressed to find that same tolerance in the religious right. A gay child growing up being constantly reminded that gay is a sin, wrong and evil is more than likely going to have emotional problems for the rest of their life.
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Male 17,512
Cajun: And I`m saying that `Stigma` is no different than the undeserved reputations that many suffer from. The stigma of unwed teenage motherhood, for example, was no less hurtful and damaging 40 years ago as homosexuality was 30 years ago.
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Male 10,855
[quote]Markust made a blanket statement about ALL religious families[/quote]


Nope just the religious right.
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Male 10,855
[quote]It`s obviously a problem for some people cajun or else there would be no one to treat with that therapy.[/quote]

For `some people` it is a problem because someone else says so. It`s not a problem for others because that `someone else` is simply full of 5h17.
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Male 17,512
Cajun: Markust made a blanket statement about ALL religious families, Pretty much saying that any child is better off not living in a religious home and that accusation I won`t let slide.
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Male 10,855
@CrakrJak

Unfortunately some groups are more prone to it, hence the term `stigma`.
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Male 39,614

would you two just get a room
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Male 17,512
Cajun: It`s obviously a problem for some people cajun or else there would be no one to treat with that therapy.

IF no cars ran on gasoline there would be no gas stations.
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Male 17,512
NottaSpy: Not everyone grows up to be popular, many kids are bullied for various reasons and it`s no different as to what reason that is, it`s all abuse and it shouldn`t occur at all. Sh|t happens, deal with it, Very few are dealt a winning hand from the start, Life is not fair.

So unless you are committed to end all teasing, abuse, name calling, bullying, discrimination, etc.. and treat it all equally, as it should be, then please back off.
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Male 10,855
Quick question (unrelated to this argument):

Fatninja how the Hell did make so many posts?

I`ve been here (and more active) longer than you have.
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Male 25,417
Thats just a load of meh
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Male 10,855
[quote]As if it that was true of all religious families.[/quote]

No, Crakr YOU took it out of context. Thus YOU should apologize.
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Male 10,855
In any case I was just throwing it out there.

But the crux of this argument is NOT whether or not `something` is treatable, it is whether or not `something` is a problem.

You have NOT proven the latter.
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Male 17,512
markust: You sir made the claim that religious families would [quote]..emotional(ly) abusing..[/quote] and the child [quote]will grow up with all sorts of emotional problems related to his sexuality[/quote], As if it that was true of all religious families.
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Male 881
[quote]Your link specifies `Heroin addicts` only and doesn`t apply to other addictions. You`re stretching a bit too far there, grasping at anything. That`s the main sign one has lost their argument.[/quote] like equating gays to fat kids, goths, smokers, pedophiles, nerds, and alcoholics?
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Male 10,855
[quote]Your link specifies `Heroin addicts` only and doesn`t apply to other addictions.[/quote]

Hmmm maybe you`re right.

[quote]You`re stretching a bit too far there, grasping at anything. That`s the main sign one has lost their argument.[/quote]

Sorry Crakr you aren`t fairing much better either.
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Male 17,512
Cajun: Your link specifies `Heroin addicts` only and doesn`t apply to other addictions. You`re stretching a bit too far there, grasping at anything. That`s the main sign one has lost their argument.
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Male 17,512
Cajun: [quote]At first, but again they fix a highly recognized problem.[/quote]


and for some people their gay and lesbian desires are a problem and they want to fix it, Again no therapy can claim it`s 100%, Hell, few can even claim 10% success, but that shouldn`t limit people from trying if they want too.
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Male 10,855
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Male 881
[quote]All methods of therapy `can contribute to lower self-esteem and feeling helpless`[/quote]
What? More baseless CrakrJak crap. You are talking out your ass.
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Male 4,859
I fully stand by my statement. It is you CrakrJak who took it out of context.
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Male 39,614

CrakrJak lobs one to Cajun
OH! Cajun catches it and sends it back
It could be anyone`s game at this point folks!

this is getting good!



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Male 2,422
Bullsh|t, Have you ever heard of the mortal sins of gluttony or sloth, Goths have been killed, and Nerds have been ostracized. Please don`t attempt to tell me that homosexuals suffer more than anyone else not considered `normal`.

You are the one full of poo. Right wing Fundies aren`t marching around with signs that say "God hates fatties". How many Goths have been killed for being Goth? And are you seriously comparing the kind of ostracism a nerd might face to the kind a homosexual faces all the time? There are no therapy camps for nerds to turn them back into normal people. Why? Because you only have therapy for things people think are serious problems.
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Male 10,855
[quote]All methods of therapy `can contribute to lower self-esteem and feeling helpless`[/quote]

At first, but again they fix a highly recognized problem.
Reparative therapy doesn`t do that second part.

Oh and see NottaSpy`s post.
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Male 881
[quote]Bullsh|t, Have you ever heard of the mortal sins of gluttony or sloth, Goths have been killed, and Nerds have been ostracized. Please don`t attempt to tell me that homosexuals suffer more than anyone else not considered `normal`.[/quote]
And there it is. Bigotry cloaked in religious rhetoric.
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Male 17,512
Cajun: All methods of therapy `can contribute to lower self-esteem and feeling helpless`, reparitive therapy is not unique in that regard.
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Male 881
[quote]Wait, wait. You compared homosexuality to pedophilia and alcoholism and you are worried about someone else`s credibility?[/quote]
LOL, that is my favorite part of this threat so far!
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Male 1,243
Again we have retarded religious thinking at the root of a non problem. So fuc*ing what if you are gay, straight or fond of a bit of both, trying to repress your sexuality is never going to be a healthy situation.
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Male 17,512
xiquiripat: [quote]Fat kids aren`t told they are going to go to hell for being fat. Goth`s aren`t targeted for murder by murder by bigots. Nerds aren`t ostracized by their entire family for being nerdy.[/quote]

Bullsh|t, Have you ever heard of the mortal sins of gluttony or sloth, Goths have been killed, and Nerds have been ostracized. Please don`t attempt to tell me that homosexuals suffer more than anyone else not considered `normal`.
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Male 10,855
[quote]That`s a load of poo, Not every gay kid raised in a religious home is beaten, abused, or tormented.[/quote]

Firstly: It`s you came into this conversation with no credibility on the matter in the first place, and is going to finish with none. Secondly: That`s not what he meant.
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Male 2,422
"Not every gay kid raised in a religious home is beaten, abused, or tormented. That`s a libelous slur and you need to retract it or lose any credibility you have."

Wait, wait. You compared homosexuality to pedophilia and alcoholism and you are worried about someone else`s credibility?
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Male 881
The studies that have been done show 50% increase in loss of sexual feeling, depression, suicidality, and anxiety in those that have gone through reparative therapy, while maintaining a long term success rate of less than 10%. It shows a 10% increase in suicidal ideation. But you think you know better?

You question us about being diagnosed with depression, as if that matters, but then imply that there isn`t a negative stigma to being homosexual. Have you ever been diagnosed as a homosexual? How about Bachman`s husband calling gays barbarians? You don`t see evidence of a stigma there? You don`t see it in the way you yourself have been treating gays in this thread?
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Male 10,855
[quote]Just as the `exceptions` to a few people committing suicide after therapy[/quote]

Lets see now, the various methods of said therapy have been studied. All methods can contribute to lower self-esteem and feeling helpless.

Contradiction? I doubt it.
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Male 17,512
markust: That`s a load of poo, Not every gay kid raised in a religious home is beaten, abused, or tormented. That`s a libelous slur and you need to retract it or lose any credibility you have.
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Male 10,855
[quote] ideologue does not equal calling someone mentally retarded and you know it[/quote]

It`s name-calling nonetheless.

[quote]You crossed the line and should apologize[/quote]

For what? Addressing you`re unsubstantiated assertion...

[quote]Have either of you been diagnosed with severe clinical depression ?[/quote]

...with my own?
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Male 2,422
xiquiripat: Those are things people do to fat kids, nerds, goths, different races, etc.

Those things happen to a lot of people, not just homosexuals. Now who was it that mentioned apples and oranges again, hmmm ?

So now you are equating racism with bullying fat kids? Fat kids aren`t told they are going to go to hell for being fat. Goth`s aren`t targeted for murder by murder by bigots. Nerds aren`t ostracized by their entire family for being nerdy. Those people don`t face the prospective of job loss for being what they are. Homosexuals have and still continue too. Apples and oranges indeed.
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Male 17,512
Cajun: [quote]Exceptions don`t prove anything.[/quote]

Just as the `exceptions` to a few people committing suicide after therapy, proves nothing.

Thanks for contradicting yourself there.
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Male 10,855
[quote]Those are things people do to fat kids, nerds, goths, different races[/quote]

...and gays and lesbians, and their parents.
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Male 17,512
Cajun: calling someone an ideologue does not equal calling someone mentally retarded and you know it, You crossed the line and should apologize.
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Male 4,859
If a gay child is born into a family of loving and accepting parents (who do not follow religion) the child will grow up a well adjusted gay man. Put his gay twin into a family from the religious right and he will grow up with all sorts of emotional problems related to his sexuality. How do religious leaders and certain people of faith justify emotionally abusing a whole group of God`s children? It seams wrong to me. I am so glad that my conservative parents don`t believe in organized religion. It has made all the difference in my life.
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Male 10,855
[quote]Ellen DeGeneres has the #1 talk show right now, `Queer eye for the straight guy` was hit TV show, Brokeback mountain won academy awards, Huge stigma there.[/quote]

Exceptions don`t prove anything. BTW said stigma has been around longer since the combined ages of all those shows/movies.

Oh it IS actually still around, Brokeback Mountain got a massive media circus combined with a torrent of denunciation for the far social right.
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Male 17,512
xiquiripat: Those are things people do to fat kids, nerds, goths, different races, etc.

Those things happen to a lot of people, not just homosexuals. Now who was it that mentioned apples and oranges again, hmmm ?
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Male 881
What does being diagnosed with depression have to do with this?
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Male 10,855
[quote]Very low blow there Cajun, Then again I wouldn`t expect you to keep the conversation civil and without name calling. [/quote]

Dude what do you call this?

[quote]Wow, you really are an idealogue aren`t you ?[/quote]

As a matter of fact I`ve been as civil as long as you have. Now that I see you can`t even make solid and logical rebuttals to my claims, you might as well stop before you try the old "you`re losing" facade.
Seriously man I`m just cracking up in public space now and TWICE I`ve been asked to keep it down.
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Male 2,422
Crackr: You called me douchebag and a hypocrite so don`t criticize Cajun.
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Male 17,512
Cajun: [quote]...but there is a negative stigma associated with it..[/quote]

Yeah, right. Ellen DeGeneres has the #1 talk show right now, `Queer eye for the straight guy` was hit TV show, Brokeback mountain won academy awards, Huge stigma there.
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Male 2,422
"Please note that "Being Gay or Lesbian" is not on the list."

That`s because homosexuality is not pathological.

Now lets look at some things other people do towards homosexuals:

A serious loss, such as a loss of a job, house, or money.
Intense emotional pain.
Loss of hope.
Being victimized (domestic violence, rape, assault, etc).
A loved one being victimized (child murder, child molestation, kidnapping, murder, rape, assault, etc.).
Physical abuse.
Verbal abuse.
Feeling that things will never "get better."
Feeling helpless.
Serious legal problems, such as criminal prosecution or incarceration.
A feeling of not being accepted by family, friends, or society. <THIS ONE!!!
Bullying.
Low self-esteem.

These are all things other people have done and continue to do to homosexuals. DO YOU dratING GET IT NOW!!!
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Male 17,512
Cajun: Very low blow there Cajun, Then again I wouldn`t expect you to keep the conversation civil and without name calling.
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Male 10,855
[quote]Have either of you been diagnosed with severe clinical depression ?[/quote]

IDK have you been diagonosed with mental retardation? Because I`m starting to suspect you have.

hehe
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Male 17,512
NottaSpy & Cajun: Have either of you been diagnosed with severe clinical depression ? I seriously doubt it.
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Male 10,855
[quote]Please note that "Being Gay or Lesbian" is not on the list.[/quote]

No but there is a negative stigma associated with it which can cause ALL those nasty things you see on that list.
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Male 881
[quote]Just because a few people have committed suicide after `reparative therapy`, doesn`t mean that therapy was the cause. People have committed suicide because they couldn`t stop smoking cigarettes too, does that mean cigarettes were the cause ?[/quote]
First of all, "a few"??? How many suicides are acceptable to you? Next, it is far more than "a few". Lastly, all addictions are dangerous, that`s why we have developed safe treatments for them. Treatments that do not cause suicidal tendencies. Reparative therapy is not treating something that is dangerous, but the therapy is.

So once again you are wrong. You compared a safe treatment for a dangerous condition to a dangerous treatment for a safe condition. You get a gold star in logical fallacies.
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Male 17,512
[quote]untreated depression is the number one cause for suicide.[/quote]

Please note that "Being Gay or Lesbian" is not on the list.
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Male 10,855
[quote]Which are all synonyms for "Loss of Hope".

"Loss of Hope" is the tree trunk all the others are branches from the same tree.[/quote]

Like "orange" is synonym for "apple".
...or "fruit" is synonym for "vegetable".
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Male 17,512
Cajun: [quote]One of MANY causes.[/quote]

Which are all synonyms for "Loss of Hope".

"Loss of Hope" is the tree trunk all the others are branches from the same tree.
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Male 10,855
[quote]Alcohol abuse.
Drug abuse.
A feeling of not being accepted by family, friends, or society.
Bullying. (Adults, as well as children, can be bullied.)
Low self-esteem.[/quote]

Wow long list...

...oh wait WE LEFT OUT THIS PART!!!

[quote]Again, the above causes may trigger depression, and untreated depression is the number one cause for suicide.[/quote]

What a shock.
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Male 881
You made a blanket statement that suicide is cased by loss of hope. I have shown you otherwise. There are genetic factors as well. One of the causes is reparative therapy. So, you are wrong. The therapy is damaging. You are wrong about it being a choice.
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Male 10,855
So it`s not "#10 cause" of suicide Crakr, you`re pulling it out of context.

Let`s see what can negative social stigma cause:

[quote]A serious loss, such as a loss of a job, house, or money.
Intense emotional pain.
Loss of hope.
Being victimized (domestic violence, rape, assault, etc).
A loved one being victimized (child murder, child molestation, kidnapping, murder, rape, assault, etc.).
Physical abuse.
Verbal abuse.
Unresolved abuse (of any kind) from the past.
Feeling "trapped" in a situation perceived as negative.
Feeling that things will never "get better."
Feeling helpless.
Serious legal problems, such as criminal prosecution or incarceration.
Feeling "taken advantage of."
Inability to deal with a perceived "humiliating" situation.
Inability to deal with a perceived "failure."[/quote]
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Male 17,512
NottaSpy: Just because a few people have committed suicide after `reparative therapy`, doesn`t mean that therapy was the cause. People have committed suicide because they couldn`t stop smoking cigarettes too, does that mean cigarettes were the cause ?

I mean if cigarettes or alcohol are causing people to commit then why don`t we ban them altogether ?
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Male 4,859
You crack me up Troll CrakrJak.
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Male 10,855
[quote]Well what do you know #10 on the list you linked to "Loss of Hope" imagine that, you proved me right.[/quote]

One of MANY causes.
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Male 17,512
NottaSpy: Well what do you know #10 on the list you linked to "Loss of Hope" imagine that, you proved me right.
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Female 379
i give up. you think it is a sin, and no ammount of logic, science, or morality will make you think otherwise. that`s why this movement for social rights will just have to wait for the biggots from your generation to die out or go senile. unfortunate for the gay people from your generation
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Male 17,512
markust: I don`t repeatedly pester someone with the same question over and over and over, You sir are a troll, now go back under your bridge.
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Male 881
I own a grey cat, therefore all cats are grey? Just because YOU were depressed caused by a loss of all hope does not mean it is the only, or even a common cause of depression.

Read up: http://www.suicide.org/suicide-causes.html

Lets go ahead and add reparative therapy to that list since I have already shown proof of that.
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Male 10,855
[quote]No it was because of extensive years of research which.[/quote]

...which have shown conclusively that the only thing that makes it difficult to function in society is due to societal pressures and negative stigma. Ergo NOT a mental disorder.
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Male 2,422
xiquiripat: You truly believe that homosexuality can`t `destroy a person`s life, their work, and their relationships with significant others` ?

I can give you many examples of where it has.

Not by itself. For that you need the actions of fine upstanding people such as yourself to belittle, condemn, and shame homosexuals with power social coercion. In a neutral environment, homosexuality by itself will cause no problems. People fall in love, go to work, and *gasp* have functioning families. It is the FEAR of being homosexual, not homosexuality itself that causes problems.
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Male 4,859
I just got accused of being a Troll by the second biggest Troll on this site. That`s hilarious. I`ve been called a Troll twice. Both times by Trolls. How many times have you been called a Troll CrakrJak 1,000? 2,000?
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Male 10,855
[quote]I can give you many examples of where it has.[/quote]

Anecdotal at best.
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Male 10,855
[quote]because it`s no longer politically correct to do so[/quote]

No it was because of extensive years of research which.

[quote]Cajun: So you`re going to equate Christians with Jigsaw ?

Wow, you really are an idealogue aren`t you ?[/quote]



Oh wow Crakr HAH! You really DO like making hasty generalizations don`t you? About ANYONE!

Geez man you really are an idiot.

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Male 17,512
NottaSpy: I`ve suffered through depression, I know what loosing all hope is, So please tell me more of what I don`t know through firsthand knowledge.
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Male 17,512
xiquiripat: You truly believe that homosexuality can`t `destroy a person`s life, their work, and their relationships with significant others` ?

I can give you many examples of where it has.
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Male 881
[quote]Suicide is the result of someone losing of all hope[/quote]
Once again, more baseless statements. Depression is the main cause of suicide. Depression is not always caused by "losing of all hope". You have no credibility because everything you have said in this thread has all been CrakrJak`s gut instinct and none of it is based on reality.
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Male 2,422
xiquiripat: I`ve known quite a few alcoholics that lead `happy` lives, not necessarily good lives but they`ve died happy. And just as many people look down on drunks as do homosexuals, so please don`t go there.

Then let us use the term pathological instead of happy as a medical term. Now alcoholism is obviously pathological. It destroys a person`s life, their work, and their relationships with significant others (see DSM). Homosexuality is not pathological.

Hey you were the one who started comparing the two not me. So don`t be telling me not to "go there"
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Male 17,512
Cajun: So you`re going to equate Christians with Jigsaw ?

Wow, you really are an idealogue aren`t you ?
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Male 17,512
[quote]And why is it no longer considered a medical problem?[/quote]

because it`s no longer politically correct to do so, Politicians want votes and they`ll try to legalize, tax, or ban what they want in order to get those votes.
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Male 10,855
[quote]You can`t force anyone to commit suicide, Unless you`re `Jigsaw` from the movie Saw[/quote]


You can certainly coerce them to...
...just like Jigsaw did.
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Male 17,512
Serpentchick: Suicide is the result of someone losing of all hope, You can`t force anyone to commit suicide, Unless you`re `Jigsaw` from the movie Saw.
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Male 10,855
[quote] so please don`t go there[/quote]

First YOU stop making ridiculous comparisons.
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Male 881
[quote]This might surprise you but homosexuality was once considered a professionally recognized medical problem as well.[/quote]
And why is it no longer considered a medical problem? For the very same reason you should understand that it not something that needs to be cured.
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Male 17,512
xiquiripat: I`ve known quite a few alcoholics that lead `happy` lives, not necessarily good lives but they`ve died happy. And just as many people look down on drunks as do homosexuals, so please don`t go there.
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Male 10,855
[quote]I can show you scientific evidence that it does. [/quote]


Your science would also cite the negative stigma associated with being gay as a contributing factor.
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Female 379
Being a biggot is legal, true. However, when being a biggot leads to young people committing suicide, and even older people because they`re not allowed to quietly live their lif of mot hurting anyone, you`ll have to understand why i draw the line. Even non christians cant get away from this bull, and it`s not right.
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Male 10,855
[quote]homosexuality helps cause the high rates of STDs[/quote]


As does unprotected vaginal sex.
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Male 881
[quote]Also your claim of "Homosexual male brains resemble the brains of women heterosexual women." is akin to old quackery of phrenology.[/quote]
Because it contradicts CrakrJak`s view of the world? You cannot idly dismiss the science behind brain scans since you have done zero research into brain scans, published zero papers, and have provided zero proof for such a claims. It is not the same as Phrenology because you say so.

I know how you work. You think that since you dismissed brain scans, and the other unsubstantiated claim that you`ve made, that you are winning the argument here. You`re not. You have used faulty logic in every single post and you have not shown one shred of evidence. Those arguing with you are basing their arguments on real tested science. I know you think you dismiss science, but you can`t.
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Male 17,512
Cajun: This might surprise you but homosexuality was once considered a professionally recognized medical problem as well.

Also you don`t think homosexuality helps cause the high rates of STDs ? I can show you scientific evidence that it does.
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Male 2,422
Cajun: And you`re telling me that homosexuals don`t try and coerce straights in the bars ?

OOO Scary a gay guy came on to me. And on the other hand gays are coerced by government, by religion, by general social structure every single day of their lives. Not even close to the same thing.

Also your comparisons to addiction are completely irrelevant. Addiction is a disease that needs to be fixed in order for the person to have a happy life. Homosexuality is not, the only reason anybody would be ashamed of sexual attraction to their own gender is because people like you tell them they should be and withhold affection if they don`t conform. Insidiously subtle coercion indeed.

Also your claim of "Homosexual male brains resemble the brains of women heterosexual women." is akin to old quackery of phrenology.

Not my claim. The claim of modern neuroscience which laughs at phrenology btw.
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Male 10,855
[quote]Perhaps you believe homosexuality is `normal`[/quote]


Not as much as you believe that it is `abnormal`, when we actually KNOW it isn`t.
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Male 17,512
Serpentchick: Perhaps you believe homosexuality is `normal` but many do not and it`s their right to believe what they want.
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Male 10,855
Obesity is also a professionally recognized medical problem.



Hell those 4 I listed can actually BE a major incovenience in the public.
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Male 10,855
[quote]Why aren`t you calling that therapy into question as well, with it`s dismal failure rate ?[/quote]

Alcohol, tobacco, and drug addictions are professionally recognized medical problems.
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Male 10,855
[quote]but in the mental sense of sexual desires it is[/quote]

Is this your new language?
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Male 17,512
markust: That question has been asked and answered, move along.

I don`t care if you didn`t like the answer, or if it doesn`t make sense to you, that`s just too bad.

If you continue to ask the same asinine question then you`re proving that you`re just trolling and trying to piss me off.
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Female 379
And in the moral, and developmental, and mental health aence they are different. Homosexuality is equal to heterosexuality in normalcy. Not pedophillia.
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Male 17,512
Serpentchick: In the legal sense homosexuality is not the same as pedophilia, but in the mental sense of sexual desires it is.
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Male 10,855
[quote]Do you believe that through therapy you could remove your sexual desires for women and replace them with a sexual attraction to men?[/quote]


On the other hand that IS a loaded question.
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Male 17,512
Cajun: And you`re telling me that homosexuals don`t try and coerce straights in the bars ?

Coercion rarely helps any therapy work, Hell most people with addictions go back to rehab several times before they free themselves of their addictions. Why aren`t you calling that therapy into question as well, with it`s dismal failure rate ?

most people that go on a diet fail, 10% succeed, of the 10% that do succeed and reach their goal only 10% of them keep the weight off for 3 years. So with a 99% failure rate why would anyone want to go on a diet ?

Why, because they want to change and they have that right to try even if the failure rate is high.
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Female 379
I was equating saying something is right or wrong due to law to saying something is right or wrong due to law (your whole sodomy used to be illegal so pedophilia is equal to homosexuality thing. ) and you`re right, not ALL christians are biggots. Just the ones with the belief that homosexuality is equal to pedophillia.
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Male 10,855
@CrakrJak



<YAWN>Your failed rebuttals...
...are starting to get boring.</YAWN>
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Male 4,859
CrakrJak, If an adult wants to try and change their orientation. That is their business. But that is not the question I am asking and you know it. You are sidetracking the question again. Do you believe that through therapy you could remove your sexual desires for women and replace them with a sexual attraction to men? It is a simple question.
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Male 17,512
xiquiripat: You do know that neuroplasticity does not end at early childhood and that people can and have rerouted their minds abilities via therapy, right ? There are people living normal lives with only one hemisphere of their brain left intact.

Also your claim of "Homosexual male brains resemble the brains of women heterosexual women." is akin to old quackery of phrenology. There are many different individuals with different brain structures and none of them conclusively determine sexuality.
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Male 47
Cracker, taking a wild guess. You be one dem hillbilla folk. I have read you compare homosexuality to pedophilia and defend the latter to the teeth. I have a feeling that just like your gay cousin hides from her desires, you may be hiding from the want for some boy peen.

Also, the desire to change someone`s homosexual desires comes from the stigma that our society puts on them. This is a stigma driven by toothless bigots (such as yourself) who can`t see past the s41t they learned in Sunday School.

You may continue your boy fucl<ing now.
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Male 591
CrakrJak: I didn`t say it proved anything. I said it was a good place to start looking at the evidence.

Not that I ever expected you to look at factual evidence, or to have the capacity for an honest conversation.
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Male 10,855
[quote]People shouldn`t go through that therapy unwillingly[/quote]

No, but in the case reparative therapy they`re coerced into it.
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Male 17,512
Serpentchick: People shouldn`t go through that therapy unwillingly, It`s no different than forcing an alcoholic into rehab if they don`t want to change themselves it won`t work.
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Male 17,512
Serpentchick: Ah, Now your equating racism/slavery to children being beaten for having gay predispositions, and trying to link them both to Christianity. Too bad you didn`t learn much history, John Brown was an abolitionist and a preacher that believed in "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." and died trying free the slaves.

Yet you seem to want to withhold that pursuit of happiness for those that wish to change from gay to straight.
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Male 2,422
@ Crackr:
How did you react when she told you she was a lesbian, how did her family react? Did you gently "suggest" she try therapy like she needed fixing? Only people with problems need therapy. All her family essentially telling her something is wrong with her creates powerful pressures to conform to YOUR ideas of what`s right simply to preserve relationships. My sister is a lesbian and tried to hide it for 20 years. I know what I am talking about. The only douche here is you.

xiquiripat: There is evidence that the brain structures of women differ from men.

Thanks for proving my point. Homosexual male brains resemble the brains of women heterosexual women. You would know that if you had bothered to read the link.

You do know that neuroplasticity generally stabilizes in early childhood long before sexual urges manifest themselves. Guess not.

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Female 379
people don`t come to these places because they just don`t like wanting to have sex with someone that has the same bits. They come to these places because they`re told their wrong. They can KNOW what they are, but they`re told they`re wrong. so they suppress it. They try to pretend they`re something they`re not. And that is wrong.
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Male 17,512
markust: That wasn`t my point, If you`re gay or lesbian and have no doubts as to that status than fine. But there are a lot of people that have doubts, want to change, and should have the right to do so.

Just because you and I don`t want to change doesn`t mean that others don`t have doubts, people should be allowed to try to change themselves if they want too, and not be told that it`s impossible or that they can`t.
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Female 379
you`re right. A beating is a beating. And it is WRONG to beat a child. And IT IS WRONG to beat anyone for having a sexual orientation that hurts NO ONE. It is wrong that because of some religions, children are beaten because they want to play with dolls, or because instead of wanting to marry sally when they grow up they want to marry greg. It is wrong that those children grow up thinking they are wrong, when all they want is to love someone and be loved in return. It is wrong that those people then go to places like this wanting help, because of decades of abuse, and to be told again and again that who they are is wrong, when they don`t want to hurt anyone.
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Male 10,855
[quote">A beating is still a beating and has the same mental consequences to a vulnerable child`s mind.[/quote">

...and that proves what exactly?


Oh a better website that`s NOT a hate group.
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Female 379
It also speaks volumes about your level of morality if you think law is the only judgement of what is OK. Treating blacks like slaves wasn`t just encouraged in our nations history, it was a social requirement. Does that mean that the ONLY reason it`s not OK to be racist right now is because it`s criminal to enslave someone?
I don`t follow the law because it`s the law, I follow laws that are right, and if I don`t think they are right I will fight against them. If the law still said sodomy was wrong, I would STILL say being gay was normal.
And when sexually abusing little boys was fine (waaaay back when) I would STILL say it was wrong. That`s how morality works.
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Male 17,512
Serpentchick: A beating is still a beating and has the same mental consequences to a vulnerable child`s mind.
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Male 10,855
[quote]It`s interesting to note that you link to a site that still blames Christians for killing pagans over 300 years ago.[/quote]

So you doubt those stories because of the website in question?

BTW I removed because it didn`t any empirical evidence.
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Male 4,859
"I don`t have a desire to change my sexual orientation thus I would never try. your point is moot."

CrakrJak, way to skirt around the question. Actually the point is very valid. Because I really doubt you believe that you could ever be attracted to a man sexually under any circumstance. It is just as ridiculous to think a gay person could change their sexual desires.
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Male 17,512
Cajun: It`s interesting to note that you link to a site that still blames Christians for killing pagans over 300 years ago.

Religioustolerance.org is just a front group to hate on Christians for dozens of claimed reasons.

Maybe next time try a more neutral link there Cajun.
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Female 4,039
"Also, each person has a certain predisposition towards pedophilia, some more than others"

WHAT?!? Oy. I`m outta here. You guys have gone mental.
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Male 10,855
[quote]doesn`t change the fact they are both sexual desires, that neither was born with.[/quote]

Funny because you haven`t proven anything to be fact at all.
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Female 379
except pedophilia is beaten IN to someone, whereas homosexuality is attempted to be beaten OUT. HUGE difference.
People do not start out sexually attracted to children, whereas some people do start out attracted to the same sex.

I`m not sure how you expect to be able to test a 1 year old`s sexuality, HOWEVER one of the best ways to show it`s normal is that it shows up in every environment, the typical sign for something that is genetic or of similar origins. The fact that it shows up in dick cheney`s home as well as atheist`s homes, and every other type of environment, is showing it isn`t nurture based, but more likely to be nature based (aka genes, development in the womb, etc.)
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Male 881
[quote">NottaSpy: Show me some evidence that someone who is gay that went through gay to straight therapy suffered brain damage as a result. I bet you can`t.[/quote">
I did not say brain damage, I said it damages mental health. Here is all the proof needed for anyone who is not a God-bot. For you CrakrJak, there never will be an acceptable level of proof. You would only change your mind if God told you and since your God exists in your head, I find it unlikely that will happen.

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf
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Male 17,512
fiizok: As has been said to me, by Cajun [quote]..... one case doesn`t prove jack 5h17 for the rest of the group.[/quote]
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Male 427
Also, each person has a certain predisposition towards pedophilia, some more than others. People also have a predisposition to be aggressive, become gay, be anti-social, etc. It`s all predispositions that we may or may not follow depending on our childhood and the stimuli we received.
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Male 17,512
markust: I don`t have a desire to change my sexual orientation thus I would never try. your point is moot.
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Male 17,512
Serpentchick: Many gays and lesbians were also sexually or physically abused. Can`t tell you how many times I`ve heard stories of gays being beaten by their fathers or mothers for playing with dolls, etc. The same rate of abuse occurs with pedophiles as well.

Saying one is ok and the other isn`t, based only on the fact that one is crime (sodomy used to be a crime as well) doesn`t change the fact they are both sexual desires, that neither was born with.
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Male 4,859
Still waiting for an answer CrakrJak. Do you believe that through therapy you could remove your sexual desires for women and replace them with a sexual attraction to men?
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Male 427
@NottaSpy
There hasn`t been any study that proves sexual orientation is determined at birth.
However, there have been studies that prove humans are born with a certain predisposition towards a sexual orientation.
Determination =/= Predisposition. It is a very very very very different thing, do not mistake them.
Also, I dare you to link any study that proves sexual orientation is determined in the womb. Just so you know, you won`t find any.
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Male 591
If you`re looking for evidence of the severe psychological damage that gay-to-straight "therapy" causes, this is a good place to start.
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Male 10,855
Prison rape in 2004 occured among 1.91% of inmates
Rape of defeated soldiers

Rape is a crime Crakr no matter who commits it is the opposite of a consensual act.
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Female 33
CrakrJak...sorry, I just went back and read many of your posts here. Clearly you are someone that is not playing with a full deck. I`ll simply ignore you from this point forward.
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Male 881
[quote]Then please enlighten me how a pedophiles sexual desires are any different than a homosexuals desires ? If sexual orientation is decided before birth than surely pedophiles are just as guiltless for their desires as homosexuals are.[/quote]
Show us the studies that show people are born pedophiles. Just because it sounds related does not mean it is. Science exists because people found that gut instinct can be profoundly wrong. That is why people are more afraid of flying than driving.

You are also equating something that is a danger to something that is not. Children cannot consent, adult gays can. If we found out that pedophilia was determined in the womb then society would have to weigh it`s options. We don`t have to weigh those option with gays since it has been shown that they are not a danger.
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Male 17,512
Monique:

con·sent
1. to permit, approve, or agree; comply or yield (often followed by to or an infinitive): He consented to the proposal. We asked her permission, and she consented.

That`s sounds like it`s pretty legalistic to me.
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Male 10,855
[quote">go to any prison and you`ll find it[/quote">

You`d be surprised at how rare it actually is. On the other hand they`re actually called MSM. Did you also know that man rape was actually common on ancient battlefields?

link
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Male 17,512
NottaSpy: Show me some evidence that someone who is gay that went through gay to straight therapy suffered brain damage as a result. I bet you can`t.

Some people can`t resolve the conflict, some can, but that shouldn`t restrict one right to try and make the attempt.
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Female 379
well, to begin with pedophilia is usually caused by childhood abuse, or some other similar problem, so I don`t know of anyone who sexually abused a fetus, but usually that`s AFTER birth.

And we never said gay people that rape are right, HOWEVER MOST gay people don`t. So again, comparing things that don`t make sense.
MOST gay people want to have sex with someone that consents, just like most heterosexual people want to. I`m fairly certain it`s just more fun when both parties want to do it.
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Female 33
[quote]Consent has to do with criminality...[/quote]

I think you need a dictionary.
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Male 17,512
Serpentchick & Cajun: Consent has nothing to do with one`s sexual desires. Consent has to do with criminality, and don`t tell me that gays don`t rape, go to any prison and you`ll find it, but that`s another issue.

Someone`s sexual desire, even if they never act on it, is still desire and who gets to decide which sexual desires are right and wrong if they can`t be changed and are formed from before birth ?
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Male 881
[quote]Btw, You do know that brain structure can change over a persons lifetime right ? Guess not.[/quote]
You do know that the current methods of changing a gay brain to straight brain has been shown to cause dramatic damage to a persons mental health, right? Guess not.
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Female 4,039
"Then please enlighten me how a pedophiles sexual desires are any different than a homosexuals desires?"

Oh my - wow, just...wow.
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Female 379
IF the person was gay, then WITHOUT feeling that they were wrong to be gay, became straight, I wouldn`t give a damn. It`s the hatred that comes along with being gay that is wrong. The belief that being gay is wrong, that the person is wrong for "choosing" that lifestyle, that causes all the problems. What gender people are attracted to doesn`t bother me, it`s that other people tell them they`re wrong that does.
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Male 881
[quote]that`s bull-shiite! You are confusing "predisposition" and determination, m-kay? It`s like saying eye-colour is the same as liking Coke vs Pepsi vs RC Cola, it`s `determined` in the womb![/quote]
You can call it bull all you like, but the studies that have been done show that sexual orientation is most likely determined in the womb. The evidence shows that which sex your desire is wired into the brains of children at ages before they are even able to comprehend speech. So, while it is a choice which sex you sleep with, it is not a choice as to which you would prefer.

You picked a bad example also. It is known that there are genetic factors that affect what you can or can`t taste, so there may or may not be a cola orientation. I don`t know of any studies done on cola orientation, but there are a lot of studies done on sexual orientation and the results of those studies show that you are talking out your ass.
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Male 10,855
[quote]Straight --> Gay is ok, but Gay --> Straight[/quote]


As far as I can tell, only you`ve mentioned that and are making false accusations.
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Male 4,859
"All because you and others can`t fathom the thought that one`s homosexual desires can change if they want them too. "

CrakrJak, I hope you will answer this because it has fallen on deaf ears before. Do you believe that through therapy you could remove your sexual desires for women and replace them with a sexual attraction to men? Be honest here.
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Male 17,512
Serpentchick: I do realize that gays and lesbians have married in straight relationships and even had children, That doesn`t mean that they`ve been gay all their life and hid it, They might say that but it doesn`t make it true. If a gay person cures themselves and then becomes straight, even if they`ve lived their whole life as a gay person, then how can you be a hypocrite and say that Straight --> Gay is ok, but Gay --> Straight is not ?
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Male 10,855
[quote]sodomy[/quote]

As in consenting adults engaging in a private act out of site and out of public. Doesn`t hurt me at all.
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Male 10,855
[quote]pedophiles sexual desires are any different than a homosexuals desires [/quote]

Simple, pedo meaning children does not exclude gender.
Homo meaning same, does not include age.

Homosexuals are not pedophiles by default, if that were they case NAMBLA would be closely associated with the gay rights movement. Instead the latter denounces the former >vehemently<.
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Female 379
craker: there is also the fact that things like pedophilia and serial killers usually come from childhood abuse, where as gay people often come from loving homes. So more to the "normal" side.
and again, two consenting adults /= child rape.
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Male 282
The only therapist I know that can cure this problem is Fred Phelps. He`s pretty good.

LOL
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Male 10,855
[quote]All because you and others can`t fathom the thought that one`s homosexual desires can change if they want them too.[/quote]

I see no empirical evidence to back these claims.
Now I won`t question your cousin`s character, but on the flip side her story is anecdotal evidence at best.

[quote]brain structures of alcoholics differ from non=alcoholics[/quote]

Yeah it`s called brain damage.
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Male 17,512
Cajun: The crimes name was called sodomy and it still carries the death penalty in some nations.
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Female 379
Craker, I also said that maybe when she was a lesbian, it was actually her just being young and not understanding herself. Or that on the continuum, she wasn`t purely a lesbian. Again, ANECDOTES do not count as scientific evidence, especially since as you are not your cousin you can`t even give personal data on the subject. Did she feel being gay was wrong? Are you sure? What makes you sure? You realize that lots of gay people have had straight relationships for decades because they forced themselves? Your right, maybe your cousin is different. But that is no argument. That is an exception to the rule if anything.
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Male 17,512
Cajun: Then please enlighten me how a pedophiles sexual desires are any different than a homosexuals desires ? If sexual orientation is decided before birth than surely pedophiles are just as guiltless for their desires as homosexuals are.

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Male 10,855
[quote]baseline for those morals[/quote]

Liberty my friend, THAT is the baseline.

Rape is a crime because I did not want to be involved.
Murder is a crime because I did choose to have my life ended.
Theft is a crime because I earned the property in question.

You get the picture.

name another crime...

Homosexuals do not by nature do anything to me that I don`t want to happen.
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Male 1,151
bachmann is the antichrist.
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Male 39,614

It`s so silly to worry so about gays. Who`s only crime is to go running around with an excess of fashion sense.

When you consider all the gingers running amuk with no souls, I just think there are more important issues.
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Female 379
Evolution and logic actually give pretty damn good morals without the need for an invisible judge.

Did you know that altruism has been explained in evolution? And has been shown even in things like amoebas?

Did you really think that atheists can`t understand "If I don`t want to be killed, then the person in front of me ALSO probably doesn`t want to be killed, and if neither of us kills the other we`ll probably do a lot better."?

When I was an atheist, I didn`t think murder was suddenly OK as long as I didn`t get caught. and now, even though I don`t believe in the bible, nor do I believe in any hell or divine punishment, I STILL don`t believe in hurting others.

Morality (not the gay-bashing kind) actually makes logical and evolutionary sense, as that`s how we took over as a species. (we`re pretty week individually)
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Male 17,512
Serpentchick: She was not `Bi`, and once again the accusations fly that somehow she is faking it, etc.

All because you and others can`t fathom the thought that one`s homosexual desires can change if they want them too.

I`m not saying that all gays can change, many don`t want to and they`ve been programmed to believe that change isn`t possible so they never even try it. No one can force someone to change if they don`t want to. But there are many do want to change, Just don`t deny those that want to change their right to try.
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Male 10,855
@BigDaddyJeff

It is an invalid comparison because you are comparing sexual orientation to mental disorders, personality problems, criminal activity, etcetera. They are not the same. Furthemrore, there is no empirical evidence to say that sexual orientation is a choice.
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Male 10,855
[quote]The only problems it causes are with their gay friends bashing them saying that it`s not possible to be cured[/quote]


I`d like to see the empirical evidence to back that claim.
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Male 368
@Cajun247
Those are not apple to oranges comparisons.
A choice is a choice is a choice.
What makes a choice right or wrong are morals.
Morals are determined by whom?
Me? You? Society? The Bible? The Satanic Bible?

If you choose anything other than The Bible then what is the baseline for those morals?
Without some authoritative baseline to judege from then my choice is just as valid as your choice as society`s choice so noones choice is valid or everyone`s choice is valid.
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Male 17,512
xiquiripat: There is evidence that the brain structures of women differ from men, and that the brain structures of alcoholics differ from non=alcoholics.

Btw, You do know that brain structure can change over a persons lifetime right ? Guess not.
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Female 379
OK, who ever thinks that love between two consenting adults is equal to pedophilia and murder already shows their bias.

And crakr, maybe your cousin was bi, as sexuality has been seen more and more as a continuum. Or Maybe just young to not know herself yet. Or maybe she has grown to hate herself due to what I`m guessing is your family pressuring her (even if you don`t think so, it only takes a few words here and there to pressure someone when it comes from family, sort of a "we love you even though you`re wrong" deal) Only she knows, and hopefully she is actually happy with herself.
But remember, anecdotes are not scientific proof.

Just because we don`t fully understand it doesn`t make it a choice. And just because YOU don`t like it doesn`t make it wrong.

And you`re right, serial killers actually murder due to sexual impulses. HOWEVER, it is NOT the same, because that isn`t TWO CONSENTING ADULTS NOT HURTING ANYONE.
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Male 17,512
Cajun: The only problems it causes are with their gay friends bashing them saying that it`s not possible to be cured, that`s where most of the problems stem from after therapy like that.

Alcoholics can`t stay friends with other alcoholics and have that therapy work either. Neither could a drug abuser stay friends with their drug dealer, it`s a failure waiting to happen.

Change is ALWAYS possible and you belittling it does not help,

xiquiripat: I predicted there would be someone, like you, making that accusation. You`re calling someone a liar that you don`t even know and have never met, well done there douchebag, You`ve just become an A+ #1 hypocrite, congratulations.
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Male 10,855
[quote]it`s still an option that people should feel free to explore if they want to[/quote]

...and people always deserve to know the results of said programs before they try it. Science has spoken it`s plain snake oil.
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Male 4,859
"A cousin of mine used to be lesbian, she is now straight, and please don`t tell me she`s just hiding it, she`s been in a committed relationship for nearly a year with a man."

Sounds to me that she is bisexual not a lesbian. It`s probably a lot easier to suppress one side when there is also an attraction to the other.
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Male 10,855
@xiquiripat

There are people who aren`t sure about their orientation, hence my link and there IS professionally recognized treatment for that. But if you know your gay then you know.
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Male 2,422
Oh and they`re is plenty of evidence that shows the brain structures of homosexuals differ from that of heterosexuals. Here
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Male 17,512
Cajun: There many more people than `just one case`, Cajun. Even if it doesn`t work for everyone, it`s still an option that people should feel free to explore if they want to.
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Male 2,422
Ah yes. THE CHOICE. We all remember what those days were like. Those long nights anxiously composing pro and cons lists. Here`s what mine looked like.

Straight:
Pros: Tits. Well, they`re just great.
Cons: PMS, Buying her shoes, Talking about my feelings, Having to listen to her prattle on about Sandra and why she`s such a bitch.

Gay:
Pros: Snarkiness, Fashion Sense
Cons: Penises are kinda gross. I know I have one, Living in fear of what my friends and family will say and being a pariah to everyone I care about, Complete strangers making moral judgments about me, Getting beat up by bigoted non-nice individuals.

Hard