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Date: 05/25/11 09:05 AM

160 Responses to The Male-Dominated Culture [Pic]

  1. Profile photo of eastsiderepp
    eastsiderepp Male 18-29
    2620 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:06 am
    Link: The Male-Dominated Culture - Which one is right, which one is wrong?
  2. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10443 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:10 am
    Which one is right, which one is wrong?
    Isn`t it obvious? This cartoon fails as soon as you think about it for 2 seconds.
  3. Profile photo of Jackson13W
    Jackson13W Male 30-39
    155 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:16 am
    HA! cultural relativism FTW! great post, eastsiderepp.
  4. Profile photo of donthaveone
    donthaveone Male 30-39
    953 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:17 am
    One is forced the other isn`t... you figure it out.
  5. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:18 am


    What do you see?
  6. Profile photo of FeelTheRide
    FeelTheRide Female 18-29
    515 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:21 am
    Well...considering women don`t get murdered or beat for NOT wearing a bikini in Western countries you do the math...
  7. Profile photo of hatface
    hatface Male 18-29
    605 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:22 am
    You know who`s wrong? Everyone.
  8. Profile photo of ForSquirel
    ForSquirel Male 30-39
    2062 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:38 am
    rabbit!!!
  9. Profile photo of thubanstar
    thubanstar Female 50-59
    815 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:40 am
    Yep, already said it on here.... no one gets stoned to death in the west for wearing a bikini.
  10. Profile photo of Pandabee
    Pandabee Female 40-49
    857 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:40 am
    Cajun, is it a weird mutant duck bunny?
    Is it called Perry?...

    Back Sactters: Doo-Be Doo Be Do-Ba Doo-Be Doo Be Do-Ba Doo-Be Doo Be Do-Ba Doo-Be Doo Be Do-Ba
    Female Singer:Perry!
    Male Singers:He`s a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action,
    Back Scatters: Doo-Be Doo Be Do-Ba Doo-Be Doo Be Do-Ba Doo-Be Doo Be Do-Ba Doo-Be Doo Be Do-Ba
    He`s a furry little flatfoot who`ll never flinch from a fray,
    He`s got more than just man skill,
    He`s got a beaver tail and bill,
    And the women swoon whenever they hear him say:
    Perry:*platypus sound*
    *ladies faint*
    Male Singer:He`s Perry,
    Perry the Platypus!
  11. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:46 am
    oh come on, women choose to go out covering barely anything, we have nothing to do with it
  12. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36217 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:47 am

    as long as it is male dominated, I`m good either way
  13. Profile photo of ieatbunnies
    ieatbunnies Male 30-39
    881 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:57 am
    We shouldn`t force women to wear bikinis because then all those fat and ugly bitches would have to wear them too. They should be forced to wear muumuus and masks.
  14. Profile photo of the_windy
    the_windy Female 18-29
    1589 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:58 am
    Neither. Some woman like to express their confidence by wearing skimpy outfits, others think that their body should only be shown to a selected few (their family).
  15. Profile photo of ShadowDD13
    ShadowDD13 Male 18-29
    260 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:58 am
    bikini = winning, we dont stone people for not wearing one though, have fun in the heat!!!
  16. Profile photo of mcmals
    mcmals Female 18-29
    146 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 10:17 am
    neither, no one should be FORCED to wear anything, what you wear should be a choice
  17. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 10:22 am
    Gerry: I have a feeling you`re thinking of a different kind of `male domination` than this comic implies.
  18. Profile photo of TopperHey
    TopperHey Male 18-29
    1930 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 10:23 am
    The left one is right.

    What? It`s not obvious? Bitch has a choice.
  19. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31799 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 10:40 am
    Well DUH! Men grab women off the streets of North America and force them to wear bikinis! We guys are known to take scissors to a `one piece` suit in order to make it more bikini-like...

    vv @Cajun, It`s a cat.
  20. Profile photo of yoda141
    yoda141 Male 18-29
    266 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 10:44 am
    Sorry to trump that comic but if a woman in the west decides not to go around in bikini, nobody would say anything. I hate it when people in the name of political correctness tolerates religious primitivism and intolerance. fundamentalists should be dealt with, in my opinion.
  21. Profile photo of Renaud-
    Renaud- Male 18-29
    423 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 10:50 am
    Since when are women forced to wear bikinis? If you see an ad with a drating pretty woman in a tight swimsuit and thats make want one, well thats your own goddamn fault, because you have the choice, when you have the choice of something you can`t blame the results on anyone but yourself...
  22. Profile photo of LandoGriffin
    LandoGriffin Male 30-39
    3844 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:03 am
    Yes, because in our culture we will put a woman to death if she does not wear a skimpy bikini at all times, whether she wants to or not.
  23. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:05 am
    yoda: I don`t know that all muslim women are forced to wear burkas or the hijab, It`s a societal norm for them as much as plain clothes and a bonnet are for amish women, They would consider it immodest to wear anything less.

    There is a big difference though, Most of muslim society is anti-secular and women in the middle-east have been stoned for immodesty, Were as an amish woman would have to repent for her immodesty or just simply be shunned.

    Amish women have all the rights of every other American woman, As do muslim women living here.

    My problem with the muslims are their mentality about punishments, Beating their wives, daughters and girlfriends or killing them should they stray from their faith. This is a problem with the men, Not the women in my opinion.
  24. Profile photo of swapan
    swapan Male 18-29
    13 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:30 am
    you guys seem to think that all muslim women are forced to wear burkas. you are truly wrong. some might be, but def not all.
  25. Profile photo of meepmaker
    meepmaker Male 30-39
    6694 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:48 am
    I like the bikini better.
  26. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:58 am
  27. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 12:33 pm
    Mm- no one should be forced to wear any item of clothing they do not wish to- Crakr- shunning is a vile punishment- I accept not as bad as stoning but not kind. Equally, not all moslem women are forced to cover up- and given the way I have heard people on this site lay into women who are not physically perfect I am surprised more non- moslem women do not do it. Most moslems are decent sensible people- just like most Christians- if you criticise then do it even handedly.
  28. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 12:38 pm
    My problem with the muslims are their mentality about punishments, Beating their wives, daughters and girlfriends or killing them should they stray from their faith. This is a problem with the men, Not the women in my opinion.

    First: Hasty Generalization
    Secondly: I`m gonna grab a bucket of popcorn so I can enjoy the epic verbal smackdown Baal will give you (again).
  29. Profile photo of xiquiripat
    xiquiripat Male 18-29
    2423 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 12:59 pm
    Well one is the target acid attacks and honor killings and the other is probably a model. Tough to say.
  30. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 1:20 pm
    @Cajun247

    Here`s the problem if Baal has an argument for this. In the UAE which is where I`m pretty sure he lives husbands are allowed to beat their wives and children as long as they don’t leave any physical marks. If they are caught for it for they`re usually just fined.
  31. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25408 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 1:42 pm
    i get it, dont think its funny tho
  32. Profile photo of CaptainPabst
    CaptainPabst Male 18-29
    1250 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 1:58 pm
    Reality, the world of perception, is within our minds.
  33. Profile photo of Wendypants
    Wendypants Female 30-39
    2420 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 2:14 pm
    This isn`t funny as such and they`re both right.
    To donthaveone: yup, they both can end up with exactly the same result in their lives ie, being beaten and/or raped for no good reason.
    To the windy and mcmals: you`re right, it`s the ability to make the choices themselves that makes the difference.
    I don`t know about other women but I sometimes feel attractive enough to want to wear a bikini and sometimes I feel so unattractive that I wish I had a burka... but I would not want to HAVE to wear either ALL the time!
  34. Profile photo of kingpong
    kingpong Male 18-29
    639 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 2:31 pm
    Argument
  35. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 2:38 pm
    In both cases, one could say that the problem is that women are choosing what to wear based on the way men want them to dress- but there`s one very significant difference. In one culture, women do so by choice, and in another, women are forced to do so.

    Men and women both try to make themselves attractive to one another in American culture and other cultures around the world- just like both sexes of millions of other species of animals. That`s not sexist.

    I think this cartoon is further flawed in the assumption it`s making about the way that women in the Middle East think about women in the US dressing provocatively. I doubt they`d criticize our culture for being "male dominated," considering the way gender roles manifest in their own culture.
  36. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 2:42 pm
    Mcgovern:
    "In the UAE which is where I`m pretty sure he lives husbands are allowed to beat their wives and children as long as they don’t leave any physical marks. If they are caught for it for they`re usually just fined."

    UAE law (and the one specific case you`re no doubt quoting to make a point), have both said that the point at which the law should intervene, make arrests, break people up, take children away, etc, is if any marks are left, otherwise it`s up to the couple.

    Point of note: That guy was given a year jailtime and a ~$3K fine in every court. It was only on his 4th appeal that the one Judge (Judge Falah Hajeri) said anything contrary to that.

    BTW, there was massive social backlash at that judge, not that that`ll matter to the people bringing this up.
  37. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 2:47 pm
    Sbeelz:
    "I doubt they`d criticize our culture for being "male dominated," considering the way gender roles manifest in their own culture."

    Whilst I can agree with a lot of what you say, on this point, you`re actually dead wrong. Women across the middle east see the bikini as male imposed, and many complain about the concept of male imposed Muslim garb.

    Seriously:


  38. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 2:51 pm
    Also, think about this- women in this country, in most places, are forced by law to cover their nipples and pubic region. They can literally be handcuffed and put in jail for exposing their areolas publicly. From the perspective of a nudist, THAT`s prudish and oppressive. Fortunately, I live in a state where men and women cover their junk voluntarily (most of the time), and not by coercion. Yes, I cold literally walk through downtown Portland, OR with my penis flapping in the breeze and not get as much as a ticket. Amazingly, you almost never see naked people publicly in OR except on designated "clothing optional" beaches and hot springs. Social norms are pretty powerful.
  39. Profile photo of AngryYouth
    AngryYouth Male 18-29
    734 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 2:51 pm
    I completely agree with sbeelz.
  40. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 2:59 pm
    As for Crakr;

    Lets say I came in here, every drating day, explaining something to you about America, based 100% on episodes of Maury and Jerry Springer.

    "This is America: Pedophilia, Rape, Incest, Wife Beating, All brother three ways, Nazis dating midgets."

    Every time you bring in your, 40 odd years, you know, living in the US, I link you those Jerry Springer episodes... again.

    Every time you bring up real stats, I link those episodes. Again.

    Now how irritating would it be, if you were the only American in the room, and half the room were nodding their heads at the springer episodes going, "I guess America is mainly about midget Nazis".

    Now as it stands, if I acted that way, It`d be obvious I`m a complete imbecile, because everyone here knows the US culture.

    Lucky for you, you don`t have that problem.
  41. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 3:02 pm
    @Baalthazaq- Good point. I guess I did know that Hijab is not always imposed on women, and my comments didn`t take that into account.

    If there are Muslim women that see bikinis as "imposed," then it is a gross misperception. While hijab may not always be imposed, in some cases it is and violently so. I`ve never heard of a woman being arrested or killed in the US for showing too little skin. Will wearing a bikini gain a woman some degree of social acceptance from her peers? Yes (providing her body adheres to the culture`s norms of beauty), but that`s not the same as being imposed.

    I`m certainly not saying US culture is without flaws- there are definitely problems that come with they hypersexuality and worship of youth that are seen in the standards of beauty promoted in the media- and the criticism that has been directed at US from Muslim cultures touches on that.
  42. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 3:10 pm
    Also, for everyone:

    "Since when are women forced to wear Bikinis"?

    The equivalent would actually be, when are women forced NOT to wear something.

    France, Indonesia, Turkey, SAUDI ARABIA (bans face veils in various circumstances), Egypt, Malaysia, Syria, Tunisia, Israel, Canada (Bill in progress).

    Places it is enforced:
    Saudi.
    Kuwait (since 09)... though I went there and saw loads of people without just last week, including people with us, and a couple on stage with us and on TV.
    Afghanistan (for 5 years of Taliban rule).
    Iran.
    Parts of Pakistan, Parts of Sudan, usually not by law.
  43. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 3:18 pm
    Sbeelz:
    Nah I got you, but it`s a different type of male imposed. They`re talking social impositions. They actually genuinely think that the reason the west dresses that way is a result of a lack of respect for women.

    Now I disagree with that, but then again I have 2 sisters, one who wears the hijab, one who doesn`t. My mother doesn`t. My wife doesn`t. My cousins mostly do. My aunts all do.

    I have an uncle who tries to get his kids *not* to wear the hijab when travelling abroad because he worries it will get them harassed, and they want to wear it.

    It really is a completely different mindset than the stereotype. You should see when I`m arguing against their stereotypes for "you guys" with the Arabs.

    We have a very twisted view of each other.
  44. Profile photo of LtFurpie
    LtFurpie Male 30-39
    1014 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 3:27 pm
    "Forced", yup, another reason that religion=bad.
  45. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31799 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 3:32 pm
    be handcuffed and put in jail for exposing their areolas publicly
    Come to Canada @sbeelz! It`s perfectly LEGAL for women to be topless in public!! (except as a form of advertising) I kid you not!

    NOT that I`ve ever even once SEEN a topless woman in Canada, especially in January, but it`s LEGAL!
    Still gotta keep your junk covered though...
  46. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 4:05 pm
    They`re both blaming men, so they`re both right!

    Isn`t that how it works?
  47. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 4:37 pm
    @5Cats- like I said, it`s legal where I live (Oregon) to be nude publicly, and just like in Canada most people do not choose to exercise that freedom, mainly due to social norms.

    @Baal- I`ve heard a little about attempts to outlaw veils, burkas, etc.- which is obviously just as oppressive as laws that require them.

    I think it`s important to remember that it wasn`t really that long ago that a woman showing ankle in the US was seen as obscene and cold get them arrested. Social norms can change rapidly, and I find it funny when people try to argue that their social norms are the "right" ones.

    I can appreciate that some women voluntarily dress modestly as an expression of faith. I can also appreciate why some women like to show off their bodies (and appreciate THAT they do as well.)
  48. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 4:50 pm
    Baal: Need I remind you just how many `honor killings`, stonings, executions, and hands get cut off all in the name of the muslim sharia law each year ?

    Of course you`ll dispute it, saying my sources are `biased` in some way. But the only bias you can point to is the fact that they dare mention those atrocities. Please don`t try and tell me it`s just a minority either, Egyptian muslims are burning Christian churches and killing them in the streets. They are forcing churches to close as well Link.

    Malaysia is considering taking away non-muslims rights Link.

    I do believe you are secular Baal, Thankfully, But secularism has been fading in muslim countries recently a
  49. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 4:52 pm
    also @Baal-
    I can`t argue against the claim that there is a lack of respect for women in the US. Hell, all you have to do is cruise the comments section of i-am-bored to see that.

    I don`t think that a culture which tolerates and encourages an appreciation of the beauty of the human body is incompatible with respect for women, but I do think that there is a prevailing attitude in the US that a woman`s most valuable asset is her sex appeal. The fact that women are encouraged to dress in scant clothing doesn`t bother me. The fact that women who don`t meet a particular standard of beauty are denigrated for doing so does. One of my favorite events in my state is the Oregon Country Fair- an art and music festival where public nudity is allowed. You see naked bodies of the young and old, fat and thin, and it`s all beautiful. Do I have preferences? Yes, but that doesn`t mean that I can`t appreciate the beauty of a body that doesn`t match my preferences.
  50. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 4:56 pm
    @CrakrJak, who said:
    Please don`t try and tell me it`s just a minority either, Egyptian muslims are burning Christian churches and killing them in the streets.

    Are you really using anecdotal evidence to support an argument that these atrocities are condoned by the majority of muslims? If you`re going to talk in terms of majority and minority segments of a population, then use valid statistics or STFU. Because I could just as easily point to atrocities committed by Christians and use those to condemn the entire faith.
  51. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 5:41 pm
    sbeelz: From when ? A thousand years ago, 600 years ago ? The whole world was very brutal back then, at least Christianity has evolved.
  52. Profile photo of KittenCereal
    KittenCereal Female 18-29
    956 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 5:46 pm
    I think both are f*cked up. They are opposite sides of the spectrum in terms of extreme.
  53. Profile photo of Ranakamarth
    Ranakamarth Male 18-29
    294 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 6:37 pm
    An example of the left end of the spectrum. I was watching American Idol today with my parents and I closed my eyes for the girls singing and dancing. It gets raunchy
  54. Profile photo of RuralNinja
    RuralNinja Male 18-29
    519 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 7:38 pm
    Thats the thing about extremes, they tend to contradict each other.
  55. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3286 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 8:16 pm
    @KittenCereal
    you didn`t get it
  56. Profile photo of scallywagger
    scallywagger Male 18-29
    13 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:51 pm
    @CrakrJak
    just because you live in a western world where most people don`t use violence to solve their issues (including christians and muslims) doesn`t mean that extremist christians don`t exist in less privileged parts of the world.
  57. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:57 pm
    scallywagger: Really ?, Show me somewhere where Christian mobs, are burning mosques and stoning muslims.
  58. Profile photo of scallywagger
    scallywagger Male 18-29
    13 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 9:57 pm
    @CrakrJak
    Also some examples of christian terrorism in north america: a christian man bombed an abortian clinic, the KKK (enough said), homosexual individuals being tormented to the point of suicide or even being murdered.
    the list goes on, and if your willing to associate all muslims with those that would cause harm, you must also associate yourself with other christians that would do harm.
  59. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 10:19 pm
    scallywagger: "Just last week, the Christian Tarok were attacked by the Muslim Hausa in the region."

    Nigeria is in chaos right now, with different groups attacking one another over various things and `revenge attacks` are nothing new.

    "Yelwa has already witnessed one of the most horrific massacres of the conflict, when 48 Christians were killed by Fulani militia in a church that was later burned in February."

    I guess you didn`t read that part of the article.
  60. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 10:26 pm
    scallywagger: Also, I might add that muslim countries like Iran kill homosexuals and don`t allow abortions at all.

    And if these people protested Obama in the UK.


  61. Profile photo of zephid
    zephid Male 30-39
    92 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 10:28 pm
    @ Ranakamarth-
    Good. You saw something you didn`t think was appropriate so you turned away. Totally appropriate response.

    @Baalthazaq & @scallywagger
    `Lets say I came in here, every drating day, explaining something to you about America, based 100% on episodes of Maury and Jerry Springer. `
    .........But we`re not referencing Akmed-Springer or Mabaury to get information about atrocities imposed by Islam in Asia and the Middle East, try Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the UN humanitarian affairs committee, Hell, just look at the decrees put forth by Muslim clerics enforcing sharia law. Ten minute marriages? Female genital mutilation? Marriage of babies to grown men?( no vaginal intercourse till age 9, but everything else is a go!)

    Please, please, PULEEZE ask for links or references.
  62. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 10:35 pm
    Crakr. Buddy. Seriously.

    I strongly suggest you step out your front door, step outside your home state, get a f*cking passport, and go visit a Muslim country, then come back and report.

    I`ve been to many Muslim countries. Your bile is xenophobic in the extreme. Frankly, you don`t know what the f*ck you`re talking about, until you`ve been there.
  63. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 10:41 pm
    Look, I grew up in Northern Ireland. I could post all kinds of pics showing how the Brits were murderous bastards killing the Irish freedom fighters, the sainted IRA.

    On the other hand, I could find similar pics and make a collage of when the IRA threw "grenade bouquets" into busy bars. Heck, my mother was at the end of one of those, she ended up being off work for a year.

    Finding pics on Google images is easy. Trying to understand the others takes time and money, and a bit of effort.

    Forgive me if I save my respect for people who know what the f*ck they`re talking about.
  64. Profile photo of scallywagger
    scallywagger Male 18-29
    13 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 10:43 pm
    @CrakrJak
    I`m not trying to defend other groups or even attack christians, I`m merely trying to point out that christians are capable of violence and are undeserving of the golden light you shine on them.
  65. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:00 pm
    I@crakr. From when? The KKK murdered hundreds of people in the name of Christianity less than 100 years ago. Today, violence is perpetrated against homosexuals by Christians. Yo might say hose people aren`t true Christians and you`d be right. But at the same time you`re erroneously making the claim that small factions of Muslim extremists represent the tens if not hundreds of millions of people that practice that faith.
  66. Profile photo of human_exile
    human_exile Male 13-17
    875 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:03 pm
    yay for public nudity!

    amiright ladies?
  67. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:07 pm
    davymid: I guess you don`t realize that the bible is banned in many muslim countries and if my bible isn`t welcome there, I`d never go.

    Your insistence that people that have never been where you have can`t possibly know is ludicrous. I don`t need to visit North Korea to know it`s horrid dictatorship.

    I`m sorry you had to live through the Irish conflicts with the Brits. But when it comes to taking sides I`ll take the side of the civilized society over the barbaric society every time.
  68. Profile photo of Francakes
    Francakes Female 18-29
    157 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:18 pm
    Why is dressing how you want some form of male domination at all? Why are both women in the cartoon assuming the other is dressing because they are being forced? That is the most ignorant and oppressing part of the cartoon of all.
  69. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:18 pm
    In a sense, you could also say that every innocent person killed by the US military in Iraq was killed by Christian extremism, considering the Christian Rhetoric used by George Bush while making the case to go to war- he literally called it a crusade. But again, blaming Christianity for this would be ridiculous. I want to be clear that I`m not trying to make any kind of point about Christianity being "just as bad as" or "worse than" Islam. Far from it. My point is that it is pure bigotry to form an opinion about an entire faith based on the most extreme examples. I`ll be the first to admit that people do that about Christianity all the time in i-a-b threads, and I`ve been guilty of doing so myself- but it`s bigotry, plain and simple.
  70. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:19 pm
    sbeelz: The KKK tries to disguise themselves as Christians, But in reality they are just racists. It`s not unlike how scientologists try and disguise their scam as a `church`. They use it as a mask they are willing to throw off when they want to show their true colors.

    Violence is perpetrated against homosexuals by Non-Christians as well, Violence has been perpetrated against Christians by homosexuals in the Castro district of San Francisco too, But I bet you never hear about that.

    The difference is Christianity tells people NOT to hate. Islam tells them to kill the infidels and subjugate them under sharia law.
  71. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:34 pm
    The difference is Christianity tells people NOT to hate.
    Crakrjak, at what point here do I post your previous comments that Homosexuality is a sin and a perversion which will lead to beastiality?
  72. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:42 pm
    @Crakr-
    I already said that you`d say the KKK weren`t true Christians and that you`d be right, so it was fairly superfluous for you to mention that.

    You`re totally avoiding my argument. Like I said, I`m not interested in comparing Islam and Christianity to decide which is responsible for the most atrocity, because in both cases it`s the fringe elements responsible. There are close to 1 billion Muslims in the world, if not more so, and you`ve formed an opinion based only upon those extreme enough to make headlines.

    As for Christians being attacked by Homosexuals, I`ll just turn right around and point you towards your own argument that Christians were somehow justified in attacking Muslims in Nigeria because the Muslims attacked them first.

    The only thing you`ve managed to prove in this thread, much like many of the threads that you post in, is that you`re a small-minded bigot. I should know better by now than to waste my time with you.
  73. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:43 pm
    Just want to be clear that I`m not saying homosexuals are justified in attacking Christians. I`m saying that, based on your earlier "they started it" argument, YOU SHOULD believe that they are.
  74. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:49 pm
    davymid: How is mentioning a perversion as sin, according to the bible, being Hateful ?

    If so, I`m equally hateful of alcoholics, junkies, prostitutes, pedophiles, murderers, rapists, liars, thieves, adulterers, etc. It`s sin, just like every other, and I believe it`s covered by the grace of Jesus for those that believe.

    I guess that comment, of yours, was a lame attempt to try and lump me in with the WBC idiots.
  75. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:51 pm
    sbeelz: And I was pointing out that hate can come from anyone, even those that believe themselves to be victims.
  76. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 25, 2011 at 11:54 pm
    I`m finished, it`s pointless arguing with you. I knew that was the case when I started, but really I`ve got way more important things to do with my time.
  77. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 12:02 am
    guess that comment, of yours, was a lame attempt to try and lump me in with the WBC idiots.
    Not at all, you`re very well equipped to be lumped in with the mainstream idiots.
  78. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 12:03 am
    CrakrJak

    "How is mentioning a perversion as sin, according to the bible, being Hateful ? "

    There is nothing hateful about calling your prejudice, which is a perversion of Christian theology, hateful.

    Keep in mind, the Bible does not condemn homosexuality, ego-mad heterosexual humans do that. But it is hate when you declare that the loving, unitive, fulfilling, intimate lives of millions of people are `perversion` just because those lives do not meet with your approval.

    Your homophobia is about an out-of-control ego, and ego, CrakrJak, is the source of all sin. The reality is that your prejudice is the sin, not homosexuality. And ironically, one the verses that egotists like yourself use to libel GLBGQ people, condemns libelers like yourself.

    When you refer to homosexuality as perversion, you revile, libel, slander people, and according to Paul, revilers will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven.

    You`d better repent befor
  79. Profile photo of ElijaBlack
    ElijaBlack Male 18-29
    275 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 12:04 am
    as a male I`m always sorry for some reason so i apologize.
  80. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 12:05 am
    "The KKK tries to disguise themselves as Christians, But in reality they are just racists."

    Homophobes try to disguies themselves as Christians, but in reality they are just bigots.

    That`s the problem with your use of "true Christian" meme. But the Klan, whom you dismiss as false Christians, share the same values you claim as you own.
  81. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 12:06 am
    Nigeria is in chaos right now

    Irrelevant.

    barbaric society every time

    So your saying that Albania, Kosovo, Turkey, Indonesia, are all "barbaric" without any empirical evidence to back it up?

    My parents know better than you. They enjoyed a two-week trip to Turkey last year.
  82. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 12:08 am
    That`s the problem with your use of "true Christian" meme.

    That`s called the no true scotsman.
  83. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 12:08 am
    "a lame attempt to try and lump me in with the WBC idiots. "

    But CrakrJak, you share exactly the same theology as Fred Phelps and his crew. There is no difference between what you believe and what they believe. You are even just as abusive and vile in public as they are. For all anyone here could tell, you may easily be Fred himself, or one of his hate-spewing offspring - there is no evidence to even suggest otherwise. Your posts are indistinguishable from the propoganda that comes from Fred Phelps and company.

  84. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 12:09 am
    "The KKK tries to disguise themselves as Christians, But in reality they are just racists."

    Homophobes try to disguies themselves as Christians, but in reality they are just bigots.

    That`s the problem with your use of "true Christian" meme. But the Klan, whom you dismiss as false Christians, share the same values you claim as you own.
  85. Profile photo of Ajikan
    Ajikan Male 18-29
    1526 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 1:00 am
    Christians try to disguise themselves as humans, But in reality they are just sheep.
  86. Profile photo of symmachus
    symmachus Male 30-39
    24 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 1:09 am
    "Violence is perpetrated against homosexuals by Non-Christians as well, Violence has been perpetrated against Christians by homosexuals in the Castro district of San Francisco too, But I bet you never hear about that."

    Oh gee, who would`ve thought that some gay folk got tired of having religious bigots yell at them for all these years. The Castro district has had numerous beat downs on gays in years past.

    This would be like a KKK dude going into New Orleans preaching that the darker folk had it coming with Katrina.

    One example of a `faaaaaabulous` freakout versus centuries of forced sterilization, death, beatings, reprogramming, et cetera.
  87. Profile photo of symmachus
    symmachus Male 30-39
    24 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 1:35 am
    "...From when ? A thousand years ago, 600 years ago? The whole world was very brutal back then, at least Christianity has evolved."

    Two points:

    1. The Classical world was quite well established and in its existence had violent flare ups of war akin to modern times, except for that end of the Roman Empire thing...which was partly precipitated by a certain religion going power mad and shutting down knowledge in its various forms. For example: John Chrysostom and the joy of ignorance. "Restrain our own reasoning, and empty our minds of secular learning..." Hypatia, a noted female academic being torn apart by a crazed Christian mob in Alexandria. And so on and so forth.

    2. "At least Christianity has evolved." I`m hoping that you actually thought about that witty retort.
  88. Profile photo of symmachus
    symmachus Male 30-39
    24 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 1:40 am
    5cats said: "Come to Canada @sbeelz! It`s perfectly LEGAL for women to be topless in public!! (except as a form of advertising) I kid you not!"

    No it`s not. Going topless depends on the province and/or the city. It`s not across the board. Get your facts straight before you blather on about your jilted life in supposed Canuckistan.
  89. Profile photo of Bealzebubble
    Bealzebubble Male 18-29
    352 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 2:04 am
    Don`t ask me, I just work here.
  90. Profile photo of xCYBERDYNEx
    xCYBERDYNEx Male 18-29
    4903 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 2:30 am

  91. Profile photo of dukorider1
    dukorider1 Male 18-29
    210 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 2:37 am
    heh, good point
  92. Profile photo of zephid
    zephid Male 30-39
    92 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 4:45 am
    @sbeelz, davymid,scallywagger, really?
    I`m glad we got WBC over here showing ya`ll how bad christians are, what , with their sign waving and yelling from street corners. When you can explain 1% of Thiscome back and tell us about extreme examples of a religion of peace being hi-jacked.
  93. Profile photo of apermal
    apermal Male 18-29
    322 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 5:42 am
    As a Christian Pakistani who grew up there, lived there and also lived in Saudi Arabia and now in the UAE for the last 14 years, I can say it clearly: Crakrjak is full of s***.

    The bigoted generalisation he has for Muslims and Islam as a whole reeks of ignorance on a massive scale. I shudder to think how many more like him are out there.

    The majority of UAE female citizens I know personally wear the hijab out of their own choice, without any compulsion by their husbands or fathers.

    Oh by the way, one more thing: Dubai - where I live - in the UAE has the biggest Catholic church in the WORLD according to numbers. Regular attendance every Sunday of upwards of 350,000 parishioners. It also has 25 choirs, 30 youth groups and 11 priests. This is ONE church there. There are many more. It also has a large Christian library and music store.

    Excluding Saudi Arabia, my Bible was actually handled with CARE by customs officials in Kuwait, Jordan, Qatar, Oman, UA
  94. Profile photo of regalia13
    regalia13 Female 18-29
    212 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 6:14 am
    I love this debate. It`s all about teaching cultural relativism.
  95. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 7:43 am
    Both women are right.
  96. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 8:37 am
    @zephid- You clearly didn`t even read my argument. I never denied that Muslim extremists do terrible things- but again, my point was that comparing extremists in one religion to extremists in another in order to determine which one is worse is absurd- because in neither case do the extremists represent the entire faith. I could easily show you pictures of the horrific injuries caused by Christians trying to exercise demons from children and punish witches in Africa, but I won`t because I`m not ignorant enough to believe that they represent Christianity.
  97. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 11:20 am
    Ajikan, who spewed "Christians try to disguise themselves as humans, But in reality they are just sheep."

    You are no better than CrakrJak, judging millions of people by the actions of some. It was Christians who brought down the Berlin Wall.

    Atheism is a a sick and depraved a prejudice as homophobia is.
  98. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 11:26 am
    sbeelz wrote: "but again, my point was that comparing extremists in one religion to extremists in another in order to determine which one is worse is absurd- because in neither case do the extremists represent the entire faith."

    Absolutely right. And it goes farther, because horrible things have been done in the name of science, and art, and commerce as well.

    Should we persecute scientists, simply because so much of scientific progress has come out of war?

    Or ban photography, because it has been used to exploit and objectify women?

    Whatever you can think of, some rotten, no good s-o-b of a person has managed to use it to hurt people, or will eventually.
  99. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 12:10 pm
    @Heureux- let`s not forget the human "experiments" done by Nazi scientists, the Tuskegee Syphilis experiment, or the current human experimentation being done by big pharma in Africa. The problems in this world are caused by malice, hatred, greed, and a lack of compassion, caring, and love. These things clothe themselves in numerous forms- and all too often we get distracted by those forms and blame them instead of recognizing that the problem lies in the very human flaws in individual human beings. Religions- all religions- can be used to explore those flaws and work to ameliorate them, but aren`t necessary to do so. Religions can also be used to justify the worst of human intentions, but again, religion isn`t necessary to do that either.

    Also, I`d recommend taking your own advice when it comes to atheism. Atheism is not a "sick and depraved prejudice" just because there are self-righteous atheists who like to talk sh*t about other people`s beliefs.
  100. Profile photo of LuckyDave
    LuckyDave Male 18-29
    675 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 12:51 pm
    Makes you wonder what a female dominated society would look like...
  101. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 1:13 pm
    Heureux: I don`t know where you get your ideas of what sin really is, but it`s not based in the bible.

    I`ve never tried to put myself on a pedestal, I`m a sinner as is everyone else and one sin is no greater or lesser than another. (I`ve said this many many many times before but apparently you`ve missed it.) It`s not a libel or slander to point out anyone`s sin, If it was you`d have just libeled me with your own words earlier.

    I try not to hate, judge, or `revile` anyone, But no one is perfect, We are all human beings and fall short of the glory of God.

    The difference is I can and do admit my sins, and I don`t go out and waves signs or insult others about theirs.
  102. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 1:16 pm
    not based in the bible.

    "...not based in the English version(s) of the bible."

    ^fixed
  103. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 1:27 pm
    I`ve never tried to put myself on a pedestal

    You`ll always do that by smearing homosexuality and muslims.
  104. Profile photo of rogue_knight
    rogue_knight Male 40-49
    868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 2:40 pm
    Can`t we all just agree that women in bikinis are a great thing - as long as they are hot!
  105. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 3:39 pm
    "Makes you wonder what a female dominated society would look like..."

    Banana hammocks EVERYWHERE.
  106. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 5:05 pm
    CrakJak

    `I don`t know where you get your ideas of what sin really is, but it`s not based in the bible. "

    Since you admit that don`t know, you are simply making noise. My ideas about what sin really is, in fact, based on the Bible. Once again, you are answering from pride - the root of sin.

    "I`ve never tried to put myself on a pedestal,"
    Nice dodge, but that isn`t the criticism I made. You malign GLBTQ people with libels and hate speech so you can feel that you are better than someone else.

    "I try not to hate, judge, or `revile` anyone"

    Try harder. And repent of your past lies and slanders about GLBTQ people (among others).

    "It`s not a libel or slander to point out anyone`s sin, "

    First, you are using circular logic. Second, calling the loving relationships of millions of people `perversion` is libel/slander/reviling, and so it is sin on your part. You will not inherit the kingdom
  107. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 5:10 pm
    sbeelz

    "Also, I`d recommend taking your own advice when it comes to atheism. Atheism is not a "sick and depraved prejudice" just because there are self-righteous atheists who like to talk sh*t about other people`s beliefs."

    No, actually, Sbeelz, atheism is just a prejudice, and all prejudices are forms of mental illness. Atheism, like homophobia, is just a way for some people to inflate their own ego by tearing down other people. While homophobes like CrakrJak revile 10% of humanity, atheists revile 99% of humanity.

    There is one difference - atheists tend not to have even thought about their belief enough to know what it actually means.

    Atheism essentially proclaims that most of humanity are wrong about their own experiences, delusional, inferior, etc - simply because of who they are.

    Atheism is a prejudice. Acceptance for it promotes all other prejudices as well, because all prejudices are the same psychological/socia
  108. Profile photo of Tiensou
    Tiensou Female 18-29
    4 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 5:13 pm
    Just goes to show really, most of the people debating/bickering here are mostly MALE and arguing about RELIGION.


  109. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 5:28 pm
    sbeelz

    There is a fundamental, and crucial difference between criticizing atheism (or homophobia) and criticizing religion or sexual orientation.

    Atheism, and homophobia, underneath their surface, are conclusions about other people, and are not about one`s own experience, but a denunciation of other people`s experience. Both are negative ideas about other people.

    But religion/spirituality and sexual orientation are, at their core, about one`s own experiences (or experiences one hopes to have). Religions are derived from people`s experiences of the Divine, sexual orientation reflects people`s experiences of intimacy, love, arousal, etc.

    If your charge were accurate, then no one could criticize CrakrJak either, or any other bigot. But atheism, like CrakrJak`s homophobia, intrinsically asserts a negative and dehumanizing claim about other human beings, and that makes both atheism and homophobia prejudice.
  110. Profile photo of zephid
    zephid Male 30-39
    92 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 5:57 pm
    @Heureux-

    No, actually, Sbeelz, Religion is just a prejudice, and all prejudices are forms of mental illness. Religion, like homophobia, is just a way for some people to inflate their own ego by tearing down other people. While homophobes like CrakrJak revile 10% of humanity, religious people revile 99% of humanity.

    (the 99% that DON`T follow YOUR beliefs,Are they going to burn in Hell?)

    There is one difference - religious people tend not to have even thought about their belief enough to know what it actually means.

    (Really really think about this one)

    (How many different branches of the worlds main religions are there? There`s like 50 different kinds of BAPTISTS, Who all KNOW the lutherins, protestants, catholics, buddhist, muslims, hindus, ect, ect are gonna burn)

  111. Profile photo of zephid
    zephid Male 30-39
    92 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 5:57 pm
    Religion essentially proclaims that most of humanity are wrong about their own experiences, delusional, inferior, etc - simply because of who they are.

    (If You don`t believe like I do, according to my book, you get hellfire for all eternity)


    Religion is a prejudice. Acceptance for it promotes all other prejudices as well, because all prejudices are the same psychological/social disease.

    (I have an all powerful being that tells me how to live, his name is Harvey, and he doesn`t like you, or them over there, or that guy....)

    I`m glad you posted today, together, we may have educated some people ;)
  112. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 5:59 pm
    @Heureux- Atheism does not inherently involve any judgement about other people. It is a personal lack of belief in a deity- that`s it. Yes, many atheists are highly critical of religious people. Many are a**holes about it. But that is not inherent in atheism. I`m an atheist. I`m also a Buddhist. And I have a profound respect for the fact that everybody`s experience of reality and spiritual path is personal and unique.

    However, when a discussion about faith comes up I won`t shy away from questioning other people`s beliefs when they choose to share them. I welcome others to question my beliefs, and I`ve had some pretty awesome discussions with other reasonable people who believe differently than I do in which I felt engaged and challenged. My Sangha (Buddhist congregation) has had an ongoing dialogue with a group of evangelical Christians for years that seems to be pretty fruitful, though since I just started practicing there I`ve only been to one such gathering.
  113. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 5:59 pm
    Heureux: I`ve yet to see you quote any part of the bible to back up your libel against me. You`ve attempted to say that a sinful perversion is acceptable to God, Yet chastise me for pointing out that sin is sin no matter what it is.

    And you dare call me hypocritical, buddy you`ve broken the mold in that respect, lol!
  114. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 6:03 pm
    @CrakrJak- Judge not lest ye be judged. If there is such thing as sin in the eye of God, then let God make the judgement of who is a sinner and who is not and worry about your own heart and mind. Pointing out the sins of others IS judgement.
  115. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 6:16 pm
    @zephid- religion is WAY more than that to most people. I find it ironic that your view that religion is no more than a prejudice is based on a totally superficial view of religion and is therefore itself prejudiced.
  116. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 6:24 pm
    zephid

    Thank you for your display of ego. But it really isn`t clever to take my words, insert something entirely different, and pretend it means something.

    Religion is not a prejudice, it does not fit the definition of prejudice, because at its core, religion is derived from people`s own experiences. Religion is about what religious people experience. Atheism is about negating what religious people experience.

    Your `hellfire` remark simply demonstrates one of the defining symptoms of prejudice - taking an attribute of some people in a group and attributing it to all. It was also a dishonest or inaccurate account of the attribute, which is another common symptom of prejudice.

    And this one: `Religion essentially proclaims that most of humanity are wrong . . ."

    is simply a lie on your part. Your little game may have made you feel clever and witty, but it demonstrated ignorance, prejudice, and immaturity.
  117. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 6:28 pm
    sbeelz, you wrote:
    "Atheism does not inherently involve any judgement about other people."

    That is false. Because religion is derived from people`s experiences, reflects their testimony about their experiences of the Absolute/Divine/God, the sole belief of atheism "god does not exist" is a negation of the testimony and experiences of all people of faith, ever.

    And that negation is not based on any evidence or experience. It is, when atheists are truthful, based solely on the lack of experience.

    Just like homophobes, who reject the testimony of GLBTQ people about our lives, and make claims about something they have never experienced - claims that are the exact opposite of what GLBTQ people do experience.


  118. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 6:34 pm
    sbeelz, you wrote: "Yes, many atheists are highly critical of religious people. Many are a**holes about it. But that is not inherent in atheism. "


    Oh, like homophobia. You are invoking the same defense for atheism that CrakrJak tried to defend his prejudice.

    But intrinsic to atheism is the rejection of other people`s experiences, and without evidence of their own. Atheism rejects the testimony of people of faith solely because of who they are and what they experience - just like homophobes do to GLBTQ people.

    Re: "I`m an atheist. I`m also a Buddhist. And I have a profound respect " simply reinforces what I mentioned early - that most atheists have never even examined what their belief actually means in any context larger than their own selves. You claim to believe "There is no god" but Buddhism recognizes an equivalent of gods and goddesses, and you cannot truly respect my experience of the Divine if you insist the Divine
  119. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 6:39 pm
    Returning to the whole "atheism is not a judgement" business. Atheists online frequently say "Atheism is just a refusal to believe in God".

    And homophobes say "we just believe that homosexuality is wrong".

    However, the impact, the effect, the meaning of both of those beliefs on other people goes much further. CrakrJak claims he is just criticizing sin, but he calls the intimate, loving, unitive relationships of millions of people "perversion". His belief has a meaning and impact far greater, far uglier, than its surface words.

    And the same is true with atheism and other sounding ways of articulating their claim that some other group of people are intrinsically wrong.
  120. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 6:43 pm
    CrakrJak

    I haven`t libeled you. But you have repeatedly sinned against me with false accusations and lies.

    No where in the Bible does the phrase "homosexuality is a sin" appear, or anything honestly similar. One of the passages that homophobes like to use, from 1st Corinthians, asserts that libelists/revilers will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven. It contains two words that people falsely interpret as references to homosexuals, though neither actually means men who have sex with men.

    But Christ did give a definition of sin, anything that violates the Law of Love. Homosexuality does not intrinsically violate that law, but anti-gay theology always, intrinsically, violates it.

    Unless you like to be called a pervert, you violated it when you referred to homosexuality as perversion. And so your prejudice, your anti-gay theology, causes you to sin. And since it causes you to sin, it cannot come from God.
  121. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 7:02 pm
    @Heureux- If my personal belief that God, as described by monotheistic faiths, does not exist, makes people who do believe in such a God feel that they are "wrong," then they are misunderstanding me. There is no value judgement in my lack of faith, or rather difference of faith. In not believing, I am not saying that I have discovered an inherent quality of the Universe and that people who continue to believe are wrong about reality. I`m saying that I have not perceived anything which has led to a belief in God, and that none of the arguments that others have made to me to try to get me to believe have made sense to me. At the same time, Buddhist teachings do resonate with my understanding of reality, and they do make sense to me, and that`s why I choose to practice Buddhism. That doesn`t mean that I think that Buddhism is right and every other faith is wrong.

    ...
  122. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 7:11 pm
    ...

    Looking at the statement made by Christians that they believe that homosexuality is wrong- this is very different than expressing a non-belief in God because it is a value judgement. And it is more than a personal value judgement- it is making the statement that the creator of the entire Universe thinks that homosexuality is wrong, and will punish unrepentant homosexuals with an eternity of unbearable suffering in hell.

    Even so, if Christians never took it any further than that- if they live and let live, and put their faith in God to judge homosexuals as He sees fit, there wouldn`t really be a problem. I`ve met many Christians who believe this way who actually support Gay marriage. But extremist Christians have organized to interfere with the lives of homosexuals by trying to prevent them from gaining the right to marry those they love and by slandering them publicly as deviants and perverts.

    I`ve got more- sorry, this is a complex issue and I want t
  123. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 7:11 pm
    As for the picture, isn`t it possible that both women are being equally exploited by a male-dominated culture, and simply embraced the exploitation they are comfortable with?
  124. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 7:18 pm
    sbeelz

    You are still not getting it. When someone states "I experienced God . . ." and you say "There is no such thing as God" - you are intrinsically making a negative value judgement about them. At the very least you are calling them a liar.

    Atheists online tend to use even nastier assertions, like delusional, irrational, ignorant, etc.

    If atheism were content to say "I have not experienced God" - assuming it is true, it would be a different matter.

    Frankly, the rest of your post mirrors what homophobes say to excuse themselves. "We`re just misunderstood" and "There`s no value judgement in "homosexuality is sin" - just stop having gay sex and you`ll be fine".

    What seems innocent to you, or to homophobes according to them, is actually a gross violation of human interaction.

    In both atheism and homophobia, people without experience of something are making a claim that ev
  125. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 7:21 pm
    Now Christians complain that Atheists persecute them by blocking Creationism from being taught in schools, from blocking prayer in schools, and otherwise enforcing secularism in publicly funded institutions. In some cases, I think that atheists go to far- for example, kids should be able to choose to pray in school of their own volition (in most cases they can). But Atheists do not interfere with religious folks` right to practice their religions. They don`t try to block the building of Churches, or deny the rights of Christian churches to preform marriages. They don`t demand that the Big Bang theory or the Theory of Evolution be taught as doctrine by ministers or written into the Bible. Athiests are not trying to secularize religion- they are trying to prevent religion from encroaching on public institutions that are designed to serve people of all faiths, and which thus must justly remain secular.
  126. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 7:22 pm
    @Heureux- I don`t say "there is no God." I say "I don`t believe in God." There is a difference. I would never seek to invalidate someone else`s spiritual experience.
  127. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 7:26 pm
    Actually, "I don`t believe in God" doesn`t accurately encapsulate my sentiment. I think it would be more accurate to say "The description of God that is described by many monotheists does not resonate with my spiritual experience."
  128. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 7:30 pm
    sbeelz: That sort of judgment require power, I have no power over anyone nor do I confront people, wave signs, etc.

    Heureux: Apparently you believe that someone`s salvation can somehow be revoked, That`s a lie told by fear mongers.

    I`m guessing you are completely ignoring Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

    Even so, Gays can go to heaven just as adulterers and rapists can, if they repent of their sins.
  129. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 7:45 pm
    Crakr, judgement occurs within. How you act on your judgments of others is another matter, but if you allow your belief that homosexuals are sinners to color your perception of them, then you are judging them, whether you wave signs or not.
  130. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 7:48 pm
    Also, Leviticus says you shouldn`t eat pork, rabbits, bats, etc and that you shouldn`t wear clothes made of more than one type of fabric. Why is that no longer valid but the vitriolic quote that you threw out there is, Crakr?
  131. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 8:10 pm
    CrakrJak wrote: "Apparently you believe that someone`s salvation can somehow be revoked, That`s a lie told by fear mongers."

    Actually, nothing I wrote indicates any such thing, so either you do not believe "thou shalt not bear false witness" doesn`t apply to you somehow, or you thought you could avoid responsibility for your sins by casting aspersions on me.

    We`ll get to Leviticus in a moment, but when you equated homosexuals with adulterers and rapists, you sinned again, you reviled us, and you assured that you would not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Our relationships are not the equivalent of either adultery or rape, your comparison is pure hate. It also indicates that you, personally, cannot differeniate between things that cause harm, like rape and adultery, and things that are not harmful, like sexual intimacy between two adults of the same gender. Nor, apparently, do you understand what Christ taught in the law of love.
  132. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 8:13 pm
    "I`m guessing you are completely ignoring Leviticus 18:22 . . ."

    Not at all, but now that you are bound to all of it yourself, there is so much of your own sin to discuss.

    Of course, if you were honest, you`d admit that the passage you cited does not mean what you claim it does. The word translated "abomination" is actually a word for ritual uncleanliness, used in the context of idolatry. Of course, you reviled GLBTQ people again.

    Further, gay men do not lie with men as with a woman, and the Hebrew is actually "in a woman`s bed" - something we don`t tend to do either. In truth, accurately translated, the passage condemns married men from having sex with a cultic priest in their own wife`s bed. It is about bi or het men cheating on their wives - again.

    Now, if it had not mentioned women, wives, a woman`s bed, and if the passage did not lie withint a lengthy diatribe of cultic fertility rituals, it might have meant wha
  133. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 8:18 pm
    Of course, CrakrJak, you ran to the Levitical Law, in priority over what Christ taught. One might conclude that Jesus is irrelevant in your theology.

    Jesus said that the entire laws was contained in two statements: "love God with your entire self" and "love your neighbor as yourself".

    Homosexuality, and same-sex lovemaking in general, does not violate either clause. Cheating on your wife, even with the priest of an ancient fertility cult, does. Calling millions of people "abominations" and perverts, violates both clauses, CrakrJak. So do many of your other positions, by the way.

    And the companion verse from Leviticus that you didn`t mention, demands the death penalty. You invoke one, you invoke the other, and that not only puts in you in Fred Phelps` camp, it aligns you with the people in Uganda who wish to slaughter homosexuals.
  134. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 8:22 pm
    CrakrJak

    And, returning to what Jesus said, unless you want to be murdered for your intimate relationship, even accepting the Leviticus passages as accurate is sin on your part. If you obey Christ, you cannot accept any condemnation on our relationships that you would not accept about your own.

    Further, because homosexuality is innate, the entire idea of demanding that millions of people live without the emotional and spiritual benefits of sexual intimacy their entire lives, is fundamentally and inalienably unjust.

    Yet God is perfectly just. But a perfectly just God could not, by definition, impose the prejudice people like you blame on Him. In fact, if God condemns homosexuality, and shows preferential treatment to heterosexuals, then God is not really God at all.

    Because anti-gay theology is intrinsically unjust, it treats some people in a negative and harmful way solely because of an innate trait they have.
  135. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 8:26 pm
    One more thing for you to ponder, CrakrJak, and it goes back to that guy you ignored, Jesus.

    In Matthew 7:15-23, Jesus gives a test for true, or Godly, teaching. He says that good trees bear good fruit, and evil trees bear evil fruit.

    All of the fruit of anti-gay theology is evil, CrakrJak. From your degrading claims to the death penalty legislation in Uganda to hate crimes, marriage discrimination, the lies homophoobes tell about homosexuals, God, themselves, even the dismissive way it characterizes heterosexual intimacy - all of it is evil.

    If you believe Jesus, then his test for right understanding proves beyond all doubt that the belief "homosexuality is sin" is evil, it does not come from God, and those who teach are in grave and serious rebellion against God.
  136. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 8:34 pm
    sbeelz, you wrote:

    "I don`t say "there is no God." I say "I don`t believe in God." There is a difference. I would never seek to invalidate someone else`s spiritual experience. "

    Then you are not an atheist, because atheism specifically states "There is no God". Atheist is not a synonym for non-believer, or questioner, or "I don`t experience".

    And really, the "I don`t believe" is only slightly better.

    Emotions are intangible, like God. Suppose you said to someone "I am in love with so and so" and that person replied "Love does not exist". That would be the equivalent of atheism. And if they replied "I don`t believe that you love so and so" - would that really be much better?

    Now, if they said "I don`t feel that way about so and so" - or "I`ve never met so and so" - that would be different.

    See, the heart of it is believ
  137. Profile photo of trippyhippy9
    trippyhippy9 Male 18-29
    559 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 8:39 pm
    lol, Serious thread is serious.
  138. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 9:03 pm
    Then you are not an atheist, because atheism specifically states "There is no God".

    No, it doesn`t.

    Atheist is not a synonym for non-believer

    It`s not a synonym, no. It`s the definition of the word. Always has been, hence the etymology.

    Of course, since you operate on irrational prejudice of your own, it`s not surprising that you`re fundamentally ignorant about the group you`re so vehemently bigoted against.
  139. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 9:05 pm
    "Emotions are intangible, like God. Suppose you said to someone "I am in love with so and so" and that person replied "Love does not exist". That would be the equivalent of atheism. And if they replied "I don`t believe that you love so and so" - would that really be much better?"

    If someone were to tell another person "I don`t believe you love so and so," that would be akin to me telling someone "I don`t believe that you experience God." Like I said, I would never invalidate another person`s spiritual experience, or any experience of theirs, because I`m not living life through their eyes. And in all honesty, I extend that same courtesy to people that I`ve taken care of who have Alzheimer`s and schizophrenia. Their experiences may diverge significantly from mine and everyone else`s, but that doesn`t invalidate their reality. I`ve found that by coming to my interactions with people experiencing "psychosis"
  140. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 9:12 pm
    Hebrew is actually "in a woman`s bed"

    It`s much less clear than that. A literal translation is practically meaningless and there`s no way of knowing what the original author meant. Not just for that segment, but for the whole verse. Your interpretation is one possibility, but there are others. For example, it might have been about not violating sexed roles. It`s just not clear.

    Jesus said that the entire laws was contained in two statements: "love God with your entire self" and "love your neighbor as yourself".

    The same source also has him saying that every OT law must be obeyed in every tiny detail, so like most things to do with the bible it`s just a matter of people picking out the bits they like.

  141. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 9:15 pm
    ut this is where things get kind of sticky (and interesting!) Really, when it comes down to it, my disagreement with theists over the nature of reality is much more nuanced and complex than the existence or nonexistence of a deity.

    There are many different ways that Christians and other theists believe. Some believe in a looser interpretation of scripture than others. My disagreement is really only with people who believe that their scripture is to be taken literally as the direct word of the Creator of the Universe, and that all other scripture is false. Not because I think their scripture is false, but because I don`t believe that the nature of words allows any scripture to possess inherent truth. From my experience, words can only point to the truth, but that it is up to each individual to discover truth for him or her self- which is where faith comes in for me. I don`t claim to know truth- but I have faith that my own spiritual practice will help me uncover it.
  142. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 9:18 pm
    ...And I fully believe that truth reveals itself to everybody differently, through different faiths. I see different religions as different spiritual languages. On the surface, they appear very different, but they all communicate this core of truth to believers. To me, a person espousing that their faith is the only "true" faith is as silly as someone saying that English is the only "correct" language. I refer you to a Zen Koan.
  143. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 9:22 pm
    The word translated "abomination" is actually a word for ritual uncleanliness, used in the context of idolatry.

    The context in Leviticus is unclear, since it changes from verse to verse. 1-5 is an intro about stating authority, 6-20 is about who you`re not allowed to have sex with, 21 is about not sacrificing children to another god, 22 is the unclear verse possibly about homosexuality or some subset of homosexuality, 23 is about not having sex with animals.

    Verse 21 looks like an anomaly to me, not the context, and it`s not about idolatry anyway.

    In a general context, to`evah is used for all sorts of ritual uncleanliness, not just idolatry. But I agree that "abomination" is a highly inaccurate way to translate it.
  144. Profile photo of zephid
    zephid Male 30-39
    92 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 10:03 pm
    @Heureux-

    I do not believe in your, or any other god. Do you believe I am going to hell?
  145. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 10:36 pm
    @zephid- come on, why bring trolling into what has been an open and engaging discussion? Does it REALLY matter to you what someone else believes will happen to you when you die?
  146. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 11:10 pm
    Sbeelz, you wrote:

    `Like I said, I would never invalidate another person`s spiritual experience, or any experience of theirs, because I`m not living life through their eyes."

    And that is exactly what atheism and homophobia/anti-gay theology accomplish. And though it varies in how it is communicated, all prejudices - racism, sexism, ageism, you name it - scratch the surface and they are all about invalidating other people.

    "I don`t believe that the nature of words allows any scripture to possess inherent truth."

    But since Scripture is the record of what spiritual people have experienced, when you say it cannot possess any inherent truth, you are invalidating their experiences.

    If you completely reject Scriptures, any of them, you are rejecting people`s ability to experience the Absolute and report their experiences.
  147. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 11:20 pm
    However, sbeelz, if you recognize that while finite language and finite human minds cannot contain or express the totality of the inherent truth of the Absolute, and in truth nothing can, it can express some portion of inherent truth.

    "From my experience, words can only point to the truth, "

    Words could only point to truth if they also contain some inherent truth. That is what makes lying and deception and distotion such an impediment to understanding.

    The challenge is not that words cannot express or contain inherent truth, but that they can express many truths but not the totality, the Absolute that is all truths at once.

    And so language and culture influence how people express their truth of their experiences of the Divine, not fully, but not without truth either.
  148. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 11:32 pm
    "since you operate on irrational prejudice of your own,"

    Because nothing affirms the validity of your points like ad hominem, eh Angilion. It is not enough that you distort and misrepresent, playing both GLBTQ people and people of faith against each other for your own amusement, you`ve got to make sure you tear other people down in the process. You have been caught lying about GLBTQ people many, many times. It has destroyed your credibility.

    Pride, of course, the thing behind anti-gay theology, and racism, and atheism, and sexism. Not healthy self-esteem, but that ugly "I am better than other people" stuff, like your lies about gays seeking more rights and protections. You lie about us to build up your own ego, out of pride.

    Pride, to many Christian theologians, is the source of sin.

  149. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 11:37 pm
    Zephid

    First off, I`m not sure I believe your denial, any more than I believe ex-gays. I used to just give atheists a doubt, but as I have recognized the extraordinary parallels between ex-gays (and many homophobes) and atheism, I have been convinced that atheists are in active denial.

    Both use the same stories "I used to, but . . ." and then conclude that their experience defines everyone else`s experiences. Both tend to have been miserable, usually because of their own choices, blame their misery on either religion or sexuality, and then concluded that everyone else is miserable too.

    And with ex-gays, they keep getting caught being not so very "ex" after all. In fact, Exodus Intl. even admits that no one changes from gay to straight, only the label, the word they use to describe themselves changes.

  150. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 11:45 pm
    So, Zephid, based on that parallel, and there are others to other people living in denial, I am exploring the hypothesis that atheists are in denial, that they too experience the Divine, but deny it.

    Oh, they may not experience it they way they expected to, or as strongly or beautifully or lovingly as others, but they sound just like ex-gays - trying to drown out a truth they don`t like.

    Hell, spiritually speaking, is simply separation from God, Zephid. It is not a place, and if the mystics are correct that there is nothing that is separate from the Divine, then the fullest form of hell will be non-existence.

    So you may be in hell already for all anyone knows, in a corporeal self-imposed separation from God that will eventually lead to utter non-existence.

  151. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 26, 2011 at 11:56 pm
    For Zephid

    Which, ironically, is pretty much what atheists claim happens when they die. It may be that while everyone else returns to the Absolute, you and other atheists will get you what believed in - just wink out of existence like some sad little candle, a poor player who is heard no more while everyone else goes to the cast party of their understanding.

    But, I don`t know what is going to happen to you. I don`t know what will happen in your future before death, and lack the pride to opine what will happen after.

    And be frank, you don`t really care what I think anyways. And in the grand scheme, what I think will, or will not, happen to you when you die, is completely irrelevant. I have no say in it. Whatever you`ve prepared for yourself will happen, or not, regardless of my opinion about it.
  152. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 27, 2011 at 12:05 am
    "But since Scripture is the record of what spiritual people have experienced, when you say it cannot possess any inherent truth, you are invalidating their experiences."

    Incorrect. I`m recognizing the inherent limitations of language. Which speaks to the Buddhist perspective on scripture. It`s not so much that I adopted it upon becoming a Buddhist- it`s largely that perspective that drew me to Buddhism.

    In Buddhism, even the words of the Buddha are seen as inherently meaningless and empty, because words alone cannot transmit understanding from one person to another. Words are subject to the law of impermanence. Their meanings change, sometimes slightly, sometimes greatly, from one person to another. Their meanings change over time. Entire languages die.

    Words can help a awaken understanding within a person, but reading scripture and thinking that one understands it does not guarantee an understanding of that which the person who wrote them intend
  153. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    May 27, 2011 at 12:09 am
    Heureux: The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah certainly did come from God, As did the flood of Noah`s time. Your unwillingness to recognize your sins means you`re living in it.

    You`ve twisted and spun and twirled around so much now that you can`t even say that I, nor anyone else, has sinned now. For as much as the same 2 phrases of Jesus you have used to claim your lifestyle is not sinful then you cannot claim that I have sinned.

    So long as they love God, Jesus, and their neighbor, and doesn`t hate anyone then no body sins, According to you. Sorry buddy but that`s false teaching, There is more to sin than just Love and Hate.
  154. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    May 27, 2011 at 12:12 am
    Also, Heureux, I ask you this: Do you believe that there are other texts that contain truth about the nature of God and the Universe besides the Bible, or do you invalidate the spiritual experiences of the prophets, saints, shamen, yogis, etc on whose experiences the sacred texts of other religions are based?
  155. Profile photo of zephid
    zephid Male 30-39
    92 posts
    May 27, 2011 at 8:28 am
    Not trolling. There is no supreme being, god, flying spaghetti monster,ect. I was just wondering what Heureuxs` beliefs were on the salvation of non believers, deniers, and people like me who think religion= easterbunny= toothfairy= ghosts= magic.

    And as far as where i am `going` when this all ends, isn`t it your job to spread the gospel and warn me about my sinful ways to bring me to god? and as far as what you believe is my denial, look at the easter bunny. Been told stories, seen pictures, hell, received the fruits of his labors in chocolate. Sit back and look at your denial of the existence of an actual delivering eggs easter bunny, and you will know what i have for a god. No denial, No personal hell, no feeling, I don`t pity or look down on people of faith, because i DO understand why mankind clings to imaginary gods. It`s fear of the unknown. Fear of punishment. Fear of oneself.
  156. Profile photo of CosmicKarma
    CosmicKarma Female 13-17
    32 posts
    May 28, 2011 at 7:25 pm
    Whoah... that was the political cartoon in my local newspaper a while back.
  157. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 28, 2011 at 9:40 pm
    Because nothing affirms the validity of your points like ad hominem, eh Angilion. It is not enough that you distort and misrepresent, playing both GLBTQ people and people of faith against each other for your own amusement, you`ve got to make sure you tear other people down in the process. You have been caught lying about GLBTQ people many, many times.

    If you believed that, you could provide many examples.

    Or even just one.

    But you can`t because it isn`t true.

    You just make things up that you`d like to be true and say that they are true. Maybe you even end up believing that they`re true. Of course, that undermines every argument you make, even the ones that aren`t just you spewing out your irrational hatreds.
  158. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 28, 2011 at 9:48 pm
    Pride, of course, the thing behind anti-gay theology, and racism, and atheism, and sexism. Not healthy self-esteem, but that ugly "I am better than other people" stuff, like your lies about gays seeking more rights and protections. You lie about us to build up your own ego, out of pride.

    You are rather obviously projecting your own beliefs onto me. Your pride is monumental and you openly state the inferiority of your chosen enemy-group.

    You`re also making untrue statements, as usual, since I have never said gays are seeking anything. It might look that way to someone who is so prejudiced that they view all homosexuals as being the same, but if that`s how you see it that`s your problem, not mine.

    Love the "us" thing, by the way. Do you exclude all bisexual people, or just those (like me) who don`t agree with you?
  159. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 28, 2011 at 9:57 pm
    Also, Heureux, given your stated views on group pride, you should be actively campaigning against gay pride. Are you? Bet you`re not. Bet you think it`s different when "we" do it. That`s the way group politics normally works, whichever group(s) the speaker has chosen as their favoured group(s).

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