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Date: 05/05/11 09:31 AM

160 Responses to Rhetorical Question Of The Day

  1. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 8:09 am
    Link: Rhetorical Question Of The Day - A little bit of sanity brought to the Minnesota State house by Representative Steve Simon. No applause please!
  2. Profile photo of MauserTM
    MauserTM Male 18-29
    1222 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 9:45 am
    How many more gay people does god have to create before we ask ourselves whether or not god actually wants them around?
  3. Profile photo of Sathon
    Sathon Male 18-29
    248 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 9:47 am
    >implying that the only arguments against homosexuality are religion-based
  4. Profile photo of magerune
    magerune Male 18-29
    80 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 9:49 am
    Basic human rights people, stop spreading hate in the name of God.
  5. Profile photo of chimmeychang
    chimmeychang Male 30-39
    685 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 9:50 am
    wow, he can represent me anytime!I think his argument is proof that there are intelligent and thoughtful religious folk out there.(i know there are plenty, unfortunately it seems stupid is a volume enhancer)
  6. Profile photo of chimmeychang
    chimmeychang Male 30-39
    685 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 9:51 am
    ">implying that the only arguments against homosexuality are religion-based"

    what other base is there for arguments against homosexuality?

  7. Profile photo of Yeoouch
    Yeoouch Female 50-59
    10 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 9:53 am
    AMEN!!!
  8. Profile photo of ieatbunnies
    ieatbunnies Male 30-39
    881 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 9:53 am
    Well said.
  9. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36198 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 9:55 am

    Why is it the conservatives, with their family values, and who have the worst records for marriage don`t want gays to wed?

    Rush Limbaugh - married 4 times.
    Newt Gingrich - married 3 times, currently married to the woman he cheated with on wife #2.
    Jim Baker - cheets
    Jimmy Swagert - cheets {and with a $25 hooker! tacky!}

    When they can preach to me about "family values" when they get some.

  10. Profile photo of sofaking42
    sofaking42 Male 18-29
    252 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 9:57 am
    Sanity? He mainly used "god" to justify his claim, not science. I don`t see anything sane about that at all.
  11. Profile photo of thelonious
    thelonious Male 40-49
    3278 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:00 am
    How do you keep applause to yourself? Is that masturbation?
  12. Profile photo of Sathon
    Sathon Male 18-29
    248 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:00 am
    @chimmeychang

    Well evolution for starters. As a species our DNA wants to replicate itself and pass itself down to offspring. How does homosexuality help accomplish that goal?

    I`m a very much non-religious, engineering science student in university, and I consider homosexuality to be a perversion of nature. Nothing religious about that.

    And I`ll be completely honest with you, if gay people didn`t shove homosexuality down by throat constantly, if they kept it behind closed doors and did whatever the drat they wanted in their own homes. But no, they have to have `pride` parades to flaunt themselves constantly. They have to petition to change laws quoting that traditional privileges granted to heterosexual couples are in fact fundamental human rights.
  13. Profile photo of VAJENGA
    VAJENGA Male 30-39
    532 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:01 am
    "How many more gay people does god have to create before we ask ourselves whether or not god actually wants them around?" THREE...also I do not know the meaning of rhetorical...just putting that out there.
  14. Profile photo of xiquiripat
    xiquiripat Male 18-29
    2423 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:02 am
    Clap. Clap. Clap.
  15. Profile photo of startech
    startech Male 30-39
    235 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:05 am
    God isn`t creating gay people. Homosexuality is a sexual perversion, plain and simple. Just like people that eat crap, get kicked in the balls on purpose, etc. You WILL become engaged in whatever activity you obsess over, whether it`s homosexuality or pedophilia. I don`t care what you sheeple say. God doesn`t hate homosexuals, but they will be punished for their sin. Same as you still love your kids, but (hopefully) punish thenm for wrongdoing.
  16. Profile photo of MajicWalrus
    MajicWalrus Male 18-29
    13 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:05 am
    "Keep applause to yourselves"... What the hell does that even mean?
  17. Profile photo of Oystah
    Oystah Female 40-49
    4033 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:13 am
    Don`t ask yourself now, in the glare of the spotlight, out in the public eye, ask yourself later, when you`re alone, at home on the couch, with one hand down your sweatpants, the other on the recall button of the remote, clicking back and forth between a re-run of some sitcom and the Red Sox game, wondering if that chicken you had for dinner is going to make you sick because the sell by date was today, but it didn`t smell funny at all.....
  18. Profile photo of MCMXCIII
    MCMXCIII Male 18-29
    356 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:14 am
    Spoiler alert: there is no god.
    But that is beside the point. The point is, whether God created homosexuals or not, or how many homosexuals has God created does not reveal God`s intention whatsoever.
  19. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:16 am
    And I`ll be completely honest with you, if gay people didn`t shove homosexuality down by throat constantly, if they kept it behind closed doors and did whatever the drat they wanted in their own homes.
    ------------
    STFU Engineering student. You live in Canada where gay marriage is legal. MYOB douchebag.
  20. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:17 am
    Startech- with the greatest possible respect dear- go and boil your head.
  21. Profile photo of KidGixxer
    KidGixxer Male 30-39
    182 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:17 am
    Who the f u c k cares anymore, let gay people be as miserable as the rest of us, and have the right to take half of there spouses belongings when they get divorce even if they didn`t earn sh it.
  22. Profile photo of BemaJinn
    BemaJinn Male 18-29
    19 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:19 am
    @startech Go get a mind, and then open it.
  23. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:20 am
    Startech

    Calling homosexuality "a sexual perversion" is libel, plain and simple. That makes you a libeler or reviler, which Paul condemns in one of the passages used by sexually insecure egotists to condemn the loving relationships between two people of the same gender. You will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

    Your prejudice is a reflection of extraordinary and sinful ego - the presumption that you are intrinsically superior to other human beings, and unlike homosexuality, your prejudice is actually sin, condemned by Christ.

    Equating homosexuality with pedophilia simply means you cannot distinguish between consensual intimacy and rape, and therefore, no one should ever allow you to be alone with children, or animals, or anyone, for that matter.

    God does hate injustice, and your post is nothing but injustice - your rant about our lives is hate and you are already being punished for it.

    Repent, sinner.
  24. Profile photo of zlatan
    zlatan Male 18-29
    292 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:20 am
    @startech you couldn`t be more wrong and i`m hoping you`re saying that to be a troll. i have a friend who recently came out and is horribly depressed because all he wants to be is `normal`. he hates being gay but no matter how much he tries, or pretends, he just isnt straight. being gay isn`t a choice, you are just born that way. may god have mercy on your ignorant soul
  25. Profile photo of verinon
    verinon Male 18-29
    335 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:22 am
    Sathon, the reason gay people have parades is because people like you exist. They won`t ever stop until the whole world accepts the fact that they exist and deserve the same rights as everyone else.
  26. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:24 am
    Sathon

    An engineering student is not qualified, clearly, to opine about biology. Perhaps you should actually study the subject.

    The majority of all life on earth, by volume, number of individuals and number of species, is asexaul, to begin with. Heterosexuality is not the norm. Homosexuality occurs in thousands of species of vertebrates, while most species of plants are hermaphrodites (that use other species to complete their sex act).

    Stop shoving your ignorance and heterosexuality down everyone`s throat. By the way, the whole world knows that when a homophobe uses that "shoving it down our throats thing" about homosexuality, he`s dreaming about giving blowjobs to rough trade.
  27. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:30 am
    Now Sathon

    Some reality for you, engineering wise, regarding procreation. It is not necessary for every individual of most species to reproduce. That includes humans, so your theory is fecal material to begin with. Additionally, for many species, including humans, it is necessary for any reproductive pair to have assistance from others of their own kind to successfully raise offspring. Wolves, lions, elephants, many thousands of species rely on the assistance of non-reproductive individuals to ensure successful rearing of infants - and it is in such species that homosexuality is most often found.

    The evidence indicates that homosexuality increases the reproductive success of heterosexual siblings.

    Now prejudice does not assist the spread of genetic diversity, so your prejudice, and you, are a reproductive dead-end and liability.
  28. Profile photo of Armauld
    Armauld Female 30-39
    107 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:32 am
    Shouldn`t there be a separation of church and state in the U.S.?
    I believe homosexuality is innate. Is being born sterile a perversion of nature? Perhaps it`s a natural form of population control.
    Either way, if two willing adults want to form a relationship, want to get married and spend their lives together and share all the benefits that this entails, it does nothing to affect my relationship with my husband.
    We can`t allow a majority to crush the rights of a minority.
  29. Profile photo of rogue_knight
    rogue_knight Male 40-49
    868 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:36 am
    He said rooster-us...lol(yes I know its caucus but funnier since the topic is gay people)
  30. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:38 am
    One more thought for you Sathon

    There is a category of life on earth that is consistently and flamboyantly heterosexual, that lives the homophobic dream you articulated -

    parasites.

    Parasites live the pinnacle of heterosexuality - no homosexuality, extraordinarily heterosexual and their entire lives are defined by their ability to reproduce. Reproduction is all they live for, they contribute nothing else to their environment but their own ability to parasitize others living things, steal resources from those living organisms for the sole purpose of reproducing more parasites.

    And homophobes are parasites on society. The Maggie Gallagher`s and Fred Phelps` of society live off the labor and resources other people produce, producing nothing of their own except more social parasites like themselves.

    The father of computing was a gay man, so step away from the computer, you have no business using the work of someone you malign.
  31. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:46 am
    MCMXCIII

    You wrote: "Spoiler alert: there is no god. "

    You are no different than any of the homophobes. Homophobes like Sathon and startech denounce and reject the life experiences, worth and testimony of GLBTQ people about our own lives.

    And you denounce and reject the life experiences, worth and testimony of people of faith. You are just as much an irrational and ignorant bigot as they are.

    Your anti-religious prejudice is not the answer to homophobia - all prejudices are the same basic thing: a desire to inflate one`s own position, ego, identity at the expense of others. Reward or glorify one, as you have done, and you intrinsically support, reward and glorify all prejudices.
  32. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36198 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:50 am

    startech - "God isn`t creating gay people. Homosexuality is a sexual perversion, plain and simple. Just like people that eat crap, get kicked in the balls on purpose, etc."

    Supposing you are right {you`re not but for the sake of arguement I`ll go with that} Even if you are right... all of the people you mentioned can marry whomever they choose... so why not gays?

  33. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36198 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:55 am

    Do you know why the government issues marriage licenses?..... money.

    At the turn of th 20th center some genius politician figured they could make a little cash by charging people for a marriage certificate. Just 2 bucks and you only have to pay it once in your life, right so what the hell.

    If marriage is a religious institution, then the gov`ment has no business making ANY regulations about it. Leave it up to individual churches to decide who {and how many} people can get married.

    The gov`ment needs to get out of our private lives.

  34. Profile photo of tn11
    tn11 Male 18-29
    1587 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 11:00 am
    Not going to read the rage war that is going on, I`d just like to say that I agree with this guy.
  35. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36198 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 11:02 am
    Sathon - "As a species our DNA wants to replicate itself and pass itself down to offspring. How does homosexuality help accomplish that goal"

    you are confusing procreation with marriage.
    Are childless straight couples invalid-marriages?
    And for the record, my first husband had a daughter...yes, gay people breed.

    We don`t all buy babies like Anjaline Jolee and Brad Pitt or Sandra Bullock ... oh wait, those are straight people... my mistake.
  36. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 11:02 am
    @Hereaux, Just a reminder, the Bible was written by man. 2000year old uneducated man, but still man none the less. Not knowing the why`s is not proof of a possibility.
  37. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 11:20 am
    "Just 2 bucks and you only have to pay it once in your life, right so what the hell. "

    You know, if marriage is a privilege, and not a right, as homophobes claim, then it can be taxed.

    If each married couple were taxed just $250 per year, we`d raise $520 million dollars a year. Tax each married individual $250 per year, and the government would make a billion dollars a year.

    And that`s just at current marriage rates in the U.S. Encourage more people to marry, the government makes more money. And really, $250 a year for the priviledge of marriage is cheap - add another zero at the end, and the government can make 10 billion per year by charging each individual, or a measely 5 billion per year by charging by the couple.

    That`s gotta be good for a couple more stealth bombers.
  38. Profile photo of kummi90
    kummi90 Male 18-29
    541 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 11:21 am
    If homosexuality is a "perversion", why is it found in literally 100`s of other animal species around the globe? Animals CANNOT have sexual perversions/fetishes. So saying that it is a perversion, does nothing but exude your ignorance and lack of knowledge about the topic at hand. Homosexuality is a sexual identity, just like heterosexuality. Who are we to say who people can love and have the same rights with?

    It is either suggested that people:

    1. Open a book and get "edumucated".
    2. Shut their fcuking mouth, because they have no clue what they`re talking about.

    Science and logic shall prevail.
  39. Profile photo of thelonious
    thelonious Male 40-49
    3278 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 11:22 am
    @Sathon

    I`m a very much non-religious, engineering science student in university, and I consider homosexuality to be a perversion of nature. Nothing religious about that.

    If you believe in some kind of order of nature then you are bringing some religious aspects to the conversation. If you truly believe in scientific principles then you would not believe that any part of this universe could ever act in a way that was outside of it`s "nature". On the other hand, if you think we have free will, then that goes right back to some kind of religious or spiritual philosophy.

    I mean would you consider Uranium to be something unnatural?
  40. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 11:23 am
    Religion aside, there is no constitutional reason to ban gays from marrying and that should be what matters here. Religion shouldn`t have any part in it. The thing is, making gay marriage legal doesn`t hurt your religion. It doesn`t force religious organizations to accept it. Your church can still turn gay people away as much as they want. It hurts no one, so stfu.
  41. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 11:24 am
    Madest

    All science textbooks are written by men and women too. By your argument, all works by humans, including all research in the sciences, is worthless.

    "Not knowing the why`s is not proof of a possibility."

    Mis-characterizing something to refute is not proof of intelligence or character. Refusing to believe the testimony of people does not negate their experiences, it only negates your character.
  42. Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 11:45 am
    What an eloquent, logical, and rational speech. I`m sure the majority of Americans would agree with him. Too bad the fanatical minority will destroy this man`s political career.
  43. Profile photo of SlothOfDoom
    SlothOfDoom Male 30-39
    2033 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 12:00 pm
    The chick beside him looks like she would love to be anywhere else in the world.
  44. Profile photo of CoyoteKing
    CoyoteKing Male 18-29
    2988 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 12:04 pm
    well put zombunny
  45. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36198 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 12:05 pm

    A politician who makes rational judgements.

    HE MUST BE KILLED AT ONCE!
    We cannot allow this to spread!
    Next we`ll be seeing actual representation of the people!

    frickin` radicals!

  46. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 12:09 pm
    I can never understand this isn`t the government suppossed to seperate church and state??? Let gays be as miserable as the rest of us!!
  47. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 12:12 pm
    @Heureux, Even you would admit science has the benefit of proof whereas faith does not.
  48. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10443 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 12:20 pm
    I thought I detected a shred of sense in what he said, but I don`t know. If it`s there it`s not enough to register on my radar.
  49. Profile photo of ubberboard08
    ubberboard08 Male 13-17
    107 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 12:31 pm
    Not to long ago a friend of mine told me about this study he read where scientists are supposedly saying that homosexuality is actually something genetically acquired. Your born gay, or bi-sexual basically. To be quite honest I have to say I agree. From a scientific approach it made quite a bit of sense. Now, since i`m Agnostic i`m not saying God doesn`t make gays, but i`m also not saying I believe God enables you to be gay. Because I do, and don`t believe in God. I acknowledge his possible existence, but as a human except the fact that I may never know if he does in fact exist, or that there might not be a God at all. We (as humans) can`t possibly comprehend "God", and all his, or her, or whoever`s mysteries. It`s far to deep, but here`s what`s confusing me. Is this man justifying homosexuality, and their right to be able to marry, or is he bashing on them? I`m receiving mixed signals here, but I think he`s trying to stand up for them. I don`t know much about Minnesota.
  50. Profile photo of pfkdxius
    pfkdxius Male 18-29
    314 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 12:39 pm
    This guy is the most rational politician I`ve ever seen. I want him helping to run my state.
  51. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25408 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 12:41 pm
    wow, a smart poly, did i just say that
  52. Profile photo of IceDragon77
    IceDragon77 Male 18-29
    490 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 1:04 pm
    Huge props to this guy. He also shares my beliefs on the matter. =P
  53. Profile photo of IceDragon77
    IceDragon77 Male 18-29
    490 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 1:24 pm
    Just to add on to what I said a little bit, I did notice how some said they would support it all if it werent being forced down their throats and I have to agree. The ONLY thing that puts me off to the whole gay rights movement is the fact that its all being done in a rather forceful and rude way. Sure, not all gays like seeing straight couples kiss in public. However when I see gay couples kissing in those gay pride marches and whatnot, its more than kissing. Its kissing everyone they can, and touching each other in obscene places. I do consider it really rude an all it really does is give people the thought that all gays are sex animals that only care about who is touching their junk, which in most cases is not true (from what I know of respectable gays..)
  54. Profile photo of SPrinkZ
    SPrinkZ Male 18-29
    2275 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 1:30 pm
    Agnostic = Does not know if God exists. You can`t know and don`t know. Those are two mutually exclusive positive claims.

    I am an atheist, but more colloquially an agnostic. I do not believe in God the same way I do not believe in unicorns, or leprechauns. But, I wouldn`t deny their existence if it was proven to be true.
  55. Profile photo of hamptoninn
    hamptoninn Male 30-39
    57 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 1:31 pm
    So his argument is:
    1) There are many people of homosexual orientation.
    2) God must have made them that way.
    3) Therefore God must like homosexuals.
    4) Therefore we must not regulate against homosexuals in our laws.

    There is a flaw with this argument. Since when did something become good simply because it is natural or innate? Some people are born with a genetic proclivity toward alcoholism. Others are born with a very violent personality. Our laws are meant to take the things inherent in human nature (either things that are common to all humans or only to some) and to regulate them for the good of the state.
    If his argument is religious, it also implies that just because something is common to humans it must be moral. However all Judeo-Christian moral systems take things that are "natural" (sex, greed, ego, etc) and regulate those urges in the service of holiness.

    I don`t want to push this point too far. I only wanted to say that t
  56. Profile photo of hamptoninn
    hamptoninn Male 30-39
    57 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 1:33 pm
    (continued) I don`t want to push this point too far. I only wanted to say that this particular argument is logically flawed.
  57. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 1:43 pm
    BRAVO SIR! BRAVO!

    I fully support this man.
  58. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 1:46 pm
    The whole separation of church and state thing, was designed to keep the state out of church, not the church out of state.

    We didn`t want a president to proclaim he was chosen by God like the kings and queens of England liked to do.
  59. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 2:04 pm
    @Hamptoninn

    There isn`t a flaw with the argument. The only argument against homosexuality is that "God doesn`t want them." It`s not that these people are violating the rights of others, or that their actions are causing harm to other citizens.

    In other situations where something is innate (like alcoholism or violence, to use your examples) those have a quantifiable amount of harm they lead to...and even then, you`re allowed to be an alcoholic as long as you don`t hurt someone or drive a car.

    His point is
    1) We can`t make a legal decision based on religious reasoning. That has no place in these courts.
    2) If you refuse to part your religion from your lawmaking, then consider this: If God is making these people the way they are, and they`re living lives that don`t hurt others, than what can you possibly say against them?
  60. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 2:08 pm
    "The whole separation of church and state thing, was designed to keep the state out of church, not the church out of state."

    ...Yes, and no. It was designed to keep the state out of church AND the church out of state. We don`t want the state dictating what a church can and cannot do, and we also don`t want a state run by a specific church dictating what we can and cannot do, based on that church`s teachings.

    For everyone who thinks we need a little more God in government, which God do we pick? The Catholic God? The Protestant God? How about the Jewish or Muslim God? Sure, they`re all the same guy but each one comes with a different set of rules. If you as a Protestant wouldn`t want Catholic laws being enforced upon you, or vice versa...then re-think your statement. In wider terms.
  61. Profile photo of hamptoninn
    hamptoninn Male 30-39
    57 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 2:40 pm
    @DrProfessor

    The claim that "The only argument against homosexuality is that `God doesn`t want them.`" is demonstrably untrue. Even earlier in this thread an engineering student made an argument based on reproductive ability. I think even an Orthodox Christian argument against homosexuality would disagree with the claim that "God doesn`t want them" and instead see homosexuality as a manifestation of original sin: a condition that exists within people whom God loves, but which does not reflect His standards of holiness. There exist several arguments against the morality of homosexuality. There exist several arguments for just about any political position. That does not make those arguments valid, but it would be silly to pretend that there could be only one argument.
  62. Profile photo of hamptoninn
    hamptoninn Male 30-39
    57 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 2:41 pm
    I am not arguing against homosexuality or for any political agenda. I am only pointing out that the "rhetorical question of the day" is a non sequitur. It does not necessarily follow that just because several people possess a trait that such a trait
    a) is blessed by God,
    b) is morally appropriate, or
    c) should be legally sanctioned.

    Representative Simon makes three points in this video clip:
    1) "We have to be careful about trying to enshrine our beliefs however religiously valid we may believe them to be in the Minnesota Constitution."

    2) He nevertheless finds the religious argument against gay marriage unsatisfying on the grounds of the question: "How much of homosexuality is nature verses nurture?" This is where his question: "How many more gay people does God have to create before we ask ourselves whether or not God actually wants them around?" occurs. This is the main point which I identified as fallaci
  63. Profile photo of hamptoninn
    hamptoninn Male 30-39
    57 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 2:41 pm
    (continued) as fallacious.

    3) Finally he notes that the representatives need to take into account shame that future generation may feel towards the passage of this amendment.

    I am only pointing out the limitations of the second point. Our government is not refrained from passing laws regulating the distribution of alcohol or from prohibiting violent assault because these things are natural. I am not saying here that homosexuals are a menace who pose a grave danger to our society. I am saying that the commonality of an impulse is irrelevant to its legality. I am not disputing the argument that if a practice does no harm to others it should be legal. I am disputing the claim that if an impulse is common then it is no longer morally problematic.
  64. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 2:43 pm
    Several people are handicapped yet we have laws not only protecting them but allowing them access where only abled bodied people can go...
  65. Profile photo of jasonlowe
    jasonlowe Male 18-29
    90 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 2:48 pm
    I am NOT trying to argue for or against this subject, but this guy`s reasoning is stupid. The opponents could say, "How many murderers does God have to create before we realize that murder is a gee-golly swell thing to do?"
  66. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 2:52 pm
    Murder is a crime. Being gay is not.
  67. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 2:56 pm
    @jason: Murder is something that you can control, being gay is not.
  68. Profile photo of austin1
    austin1 Male 30-39
    288 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 3:11 pm
    This would be a great argument if gay people were born gay, but they are not, and while I believe that God does love all people, even gay ones, he most definitely does not condone such behavior. By the way I have no problem with gay people or gay marriage.
  69. Profile photo of Boadicea
    Boadicea Female 18-29
    1678 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 3:15 pm
    Even outside of crime or control-- being gay is harmless to others. Murderers (god-created or not..) are harming others. Being gay harms no one just as being straight harms no one-- so why do people have to bother themselves with it? If you`re not gay, then whoopee for you, live your life. If you are gay, then you should be allowed to live your life also. It boggles my mind that based on somebody`s sex life, people feel justified in treating others as second class citizens.
  70. Profile photo of Boadicea
    Boadicea Female 18-29
    1678 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 3:16 pm
    austin1: Were you born straight? Would you be able to `change` that orientation and like the same sex? No? Well neither can gay people. Get your head out of your ass-- the view is just fine outside.
  71. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 3:22 pm
    What`s more ridiculous. People who deny sexuality is inherent or those who assume they know what God wants?
  72. Profile photo of austin1
    austin1 Male 30-39
    288 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 3:30 pm
    Gay people are a product of child abuse, little to no father figure, or by means of acting out against the norm for attention.
  73. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 3:31 pm
    Rednecks are the result of bad parenting and schooling and spew nonsense as if it were fact.
  74. Profile photo of GasMaskKid
    GasMaskKid Male 18-29
    694 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 3:39 pm
    Trolls are a product of child abuse, little to no father figure, or by means of acting out against the norm for attention.

    Whaddya know, it still makes sense!
  75. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31777 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 3:40 pm
    Children are born without ANY sexual orientation. Period!
    They learn, as they get older, lots of things that will affect their orientaion when puberty hits.
    There are many `predispositions` that can have mild or strong influences on sexual orientation too. Keep in mind the difference between a `trait` (my eyes are blue) and a `predisposition` (I like to eat paste).

    So NO ONE is born gay or straight, they`re both learned. As are `shoe fetishes` or other deviations.

    You may return to your predisposed thinking now, thank you for reading!
  76. Profile photo of jm0722
    jm0722 Male 30-39
    18 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 3:47 pm
    Austin1: "I believe that God does love all people, even gay ones, he most definitely does not condone such behavior."

    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ ... "

    ~Galations 3:28~

    Hmmmm....
  77. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31777 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 4:07 pm
    STFU Engineering student. You live in Canada where gay marriage is legal. MYOB douchebag.
    @madest that is LAME! Even for you!
    @Sathon makes a highly valid point, and your `answer` is STFU? Ceezus!
    @startech makes a fine point also. There`s more than "just religion" involved here.
    @verinon: Nazis, KKK and Communists also had lots of marches and stuff, what exactly is your point? Sure they (gays) can try to influence the public`s opinion until a majority agree with them, that`s fine. Good luck with that.
  78. Profile photo of Boadicea
    Boadicea Female 18-29
    1678 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 4:12 pm
    How is it `valid` to discriminate against people based on their ability to procreate? I guess everybody who uses condoms, takes the BC pill, or is old and barren should be disallowed the option of marriage too. Maybe people who have had cancers of the reproductive organs and are now sterile shouldn`t be allowed to marry either. After all, marriage should be about procreation and procreation only!
  79. Profile photo of Flashpacker
    Flashpacker Male 18-29
    672 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 4:12 pm
    Uhm derp please keep applause to yourself.

    So what if you are gay or straight as long as it is love, right?
  80. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31777 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 4:19 pm
    @Boadicea: the `cannot reproduce` isn`t an arguement against gay marriage, it`s against the notion that "homosexuality is natural and normal".

    afaik: humans are the only critters on Earth who use condoms, or take the pill. Just pointing out that Humans do lots of "un-natural" things, eh?
  81. Profile photo of Boadicea
    Boadicea Female 18-29
    1678 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 4:26 pm
    OK so I suppose it follows that homosexuality is no less objectionable than usage of birth control then?
  82. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 4:30 pm
    @Sathon

    I`m sorry I`m like 5 pages late, but... You`re totally wrong. A species needs male and female individuals to procreate and survive, true. BUT, evolution made us capable of using nature on our own favor, which now made us the only species on the planet that isn`t in danger to disappear:

    Lets suppose homosexuality is part of the genes, that doesn`t mean gay parents will have gay babies, but it does makes it a possibility, just like people don`t always get the same hair color than their parents. Anyway... If an animal species has homosexual individuals (Which there are) then the individual, maybe excluded or without the help of a "family" could die and, eventually, the species could get to extinction (If that ever happened we can`t know for sure, it is a possibility though). But humans can breed without the need of intercourse, making the "gay gene" more likely yo survive through time
  83. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 5:41 pm
    This would be a great argument if gay people were born gay, but they are not,

    If you`re going to argue that, then to be consistent you`d have to argue that people aren`t born straight either. Which would remove any point you might otherwise have had.

    Not that reality is as simple as two mutually exclusive groups anyway.

    and while I believe that God does love all people, even gay ones, he most definitely does not condone such behavior.

    You`re claiming to speak for the omniscient creator of all things. Maybe that`s just a little arrogant, perhaps?

    Would you like to argue bible verses? Go on, pick one. Pick as many as you like. I`ve got counter-arguments for all of them and that`s without even pointing out that your bible is a subset chosen by some people from a much larger collection of writings by various people at various times.
  84. Profile photo of IceDragon77
    IceDragon77 Male 18-29
    490 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 5:45 pm
    I dont get the whole "they are gay because thats how they were raised" or arguments similar to that. I know someone quite well who lives in a homophobic family, which has NO living homosexual family members, is very protective and thus never got out all too much when he was little, and now he is gay. He tells me all the time that he wishes he could be straight too, but he is completely turned off from women in any form...
  85. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 5:48 pm
    Murder is a crime. Being gay is not.

    and the other comments in a similar line are missing the point. jasonlowe was not comparing homosexuality to murder (and made it clear that they weren`t doing so).

    They were pointing out that the religious argument used by the person in this video and referred to here as the rhetorical question of the day is obviously illogical. Arguing that <insert your god here> must approve of something if enough people do it is not logical even within the illogical framework of religion.
  86. Profile photo of nettech98
    nettech98 Male 50-59
    1043 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 5:56 pm
    "So NO ONE is born gay or straight, they`re both learned. As are `shoe fetishes` or other deviations."

    So where did all these priests `learn` to be homosexual pedophiles? From the very church that condemns it?
  87. Profile photo of DingDingDong
    DingDingDong Male 30-39
    1511 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 5:59 pm
    If it`s strictly a morality issue, the government should have nothing to do with it.
  88. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 6:05 pm
    He just said in the beginning that the issue is related to religious discussion only being presented, yet not in relation to the Mn. constitution. However his very talk is in relation to the scientific innate nature of homosexuality being in relation to God ib his own words.

    Brrrrrrrwhat!!!!!! (facepalm)
  89. Profile photo of HumboldtPie
    HumboldtPie Male 18-29
    311 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 6:09 pm
    I still cannot understand the stance that certain religions take on gay people. For a group of people who follow a doctrine to "accept all differences" and whatnot, the prejudice against one or two groups goes completely against everything they say.

    The biggest complaint I have with a lot of religions is that they tend to stay stagnant through the changing times, and use strange reasoning for doing so. This anti-gay resistance is just one of the many examples of religions digging in against something that has finally become accepted by most everyone, and doing so by hiding behind a handful sentences that have been revised over and over again throughout history.

    If religion were to be of any real benefit to humanity, it would skip the part that tells you how to specifically live your life and instead focus on the betterment of society and bringing man-kind forward rather than keeping our world where it`s at.
  90. Profile photo of HumboldtPie
    HumboldtPie Male 18-29
    311 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 6:11 pm
    Then again that kinda just sounds like science...
  91. Profile photo of IrishJesus
    IrishJesus Male 18-29
    483 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 6:32 pm
    I have read all 4 pages of the comments, and I have to say, what a trip!

    You can argue all day that being gay is immoral because your particular god is against it. You can say it is a "perversion", branching off of some traumatic experience or some horribly mutated brain cell. When it comes to the GODDAMN LAW (which is what the argument should really be about)can someone tell me WHY gay marriage shouldn`t be legal? From a strictly political standpoint, I would like to see ONE GOOD REASON gay marriage would jeopardize our country.
  92. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 6:35 pm
    @HumboldtPie

    Because it goes back to Old Testament especially Lev 20:13 (KJV)
    13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    BTW when you refer to religion you must mean Christianity and Islam only as Buddhism per example does not assert.
  93. Profile photo of IrishJesus
    IrishJesus Male 18-29
    483 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 6:36 pm
    Just a follow up: I am a supporter of the gay community. I do not think it is a perversion, nor do I see gay people as any kind of stain on society. My question is simply asking for a purely logical response rather than one fueled by preference and an unhealthy attachment to everything your homophobic daddy told you as a kid.
  94. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 6:38 pm
    austin1

    Your claim is evidence of the extraordinary egotism that is at the heart of homophobia (and other prejudices). The reality is that sexual orientation is indeed innate, and yes, homosexuals are born homosexual.

    Thank you so much for lying about my life for me, but remember, your lie was sin, and God hates lying - so much that it is one of the most frequently condemned sins in the Bible.

    Now prejudice is not innate, you were taught to be a bigot and a liar about other peoples lives, so surely, it would be acceptable to you if society bans your civil rights.

    And no, we are not the product of child abuse, thank you for falsely accusing millions of innocent parents. The fact is that there is no correlation between childhood sexual abuse and homosexuality - and if there were, far more women would be lesbians because most victims of childhood sexual assault are female.

    You are a liar, which means you are acting out for attention.
  95. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 6:44 pm
    Icedragon

    Props for being a masterful bs artist.

    " they would support it all if it werent being forced down their throats and I have to agree."

    No one is forcing you, or anyone else, to be gay or lesbian or bisexual. Got that? No one is suggesting, arguing, agitating for or legislating to make you or anyone else be gay, lesbian or bisexual. No one is working in any way for any kind of law that punishes your for not being gay, lesbian or bisexual.

    But GLBTQ are actively coerced by society, including people like you, to be heterosexual. We can have full equality only if we become or pretend to be heterosexual. The truth is that people like you are constantly forcing your sexuality on us. The ban on same-sex marriage is about forcing us to be heterosexual. Uganda`s death penalty for homosexuality is about forcing heterosexuality on us. The catholic church`s history of torturing and killing us is about forcing us - on pain of death - to
  96. Profile photo of NitroJunkie
    NitroJunkie Male 70 & Over
    758 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 6:51 pm
    Holy sh-t, Heureux. That`s all I can really say. Much respect!

    I just wonder why that if the government is supposed to be separate from religion, why religion is controlling parts of the government.
  97. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 6:56 pm
    "@Heureux, Even you would admit science has the benefit of proof whereas faith does not."

    madest, even you, of all people, should be capable of understanding that atheists cherry-pick who and what they chose to believe.

    To people of faith, the existence of God is proven to them by their experience of God. To atheists, no evidence from is ever acceptable, even though most atheists accept "scientific evidence" they can never reproduce themselves nor understand.

    You are completely dodging the point I made, demonstrating the lack of integrity so characteristic of people caught up in a prejudice.

    Both homophobes, and atheists, refuse to believe other people (GLBTQ people and people of faith respectively) when those people testify about their own lives, yet expect to be believe themselves. This is egotism and pride, not Christian theology or rational thinking.
  98. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 7:00 pm
    Oh, and madest - I noticed that you completely skipped over the fact that your prior argument for dismissing religion `written by men` not only discredits science as well, but also everything you ever wrote, or ever will write, and everything everyone and anyone human writes.

    When you argue "The Bible isn`t credible because it was written by men" - everything then loses credibility. And the science you believe is proven - not knowing just how much noise in the data scientists ignore in every field - is itself only the account and conclusions drawn from the observations by humans.

    Just like religion.

    Every field of human knowledge, including science and religion, is filtered through the human mind.
  99. Profile photo of IrishJesus
    IrishJesus Male 18-29
    483 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 7:04 pm
    Uh, Heureux, just a comment. Atheists are not comparable in that way. Atheism is just a belief, like any religion. Hatred or slander of another religion is bigotry, but not atheism...
  100. Profile photo of zombieland
    zombieland Male 18-29
    418 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 7:05 pm
    you people who think its okay to bash people, call them ignorant rednecks just because they don`t agree with you. you people f*cking piss me off. If you love queers that`s fine, i have a different opinion, f*ck off.
  101. Profile photo of fiizok
    fiizok Male 40-49
    591 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 7:13 pm
    Don`t be shy, zombieland, tell us how you REALLY feel.
  102. Profile photo of fivezones
    fivezones Male 40-49
    1021 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 7:14 pm
    skip ahead to 1:30 for actual question.

    Question assumes gays are born that way, like a birth defect. I find the assumption insulting. Let gay people marry each other and let each gay person decide how and why he/she is gay.
  103. Profile photo of IceDragon77
    IceDragon77 Male 18-29
    490 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 7:17 pm
    @Heureux Im sorry, but you apparently never got the connection that I support gays. Im not forcing anything down anyone`s throats, im just being me. Btw, do you know MY sexual orientation? Am I really straight? Or am I gay myself? You dont know, you just assumed since (im guessing you just looked at my profile) and saw I was Christian and instantly thought I was a bible thumper, which is a very bigoted assumption. And im sorry, but when I was in high school I was always pestered to join the GLBT club and find my (in their words) `inner gay.` Not to mention knowing some people in that who quit because it was either you agree with everything the club leaders stood for or youre nothing. (They were flamers btw.)
  104. Profile photo of clockwork208
    clockwork208 Male 30-39
    835 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 7:31 pm
    Nothing like an entertaining troll dance on a sexuality post.
  105. Profile photo of Boadicea
    Boadicea Female 18-29
    1678 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 7:51 pm
    @fivezones: Yes, and let`s similarly let each straight person decide how and why he/she is straight.
  106. Profile photo of Boadicea
    Boadicea Female 18-29
    1678 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 7:55 pm
    Heureux: I`m with you for the most part, but... science is not just something people wrote about because it sounded good, it`s testable and provable in nature. Science and faith are NOT the same thing, and not comparable in the way you`d like. Maybe a pretty sunset or whatever is `proof` of God to you, but that`s not how science works. Saying "God doesn`t exist" is to me basically the exact same thing as saying "God exists". They`re opinions based on absolutely nothing but your own personal feelings/upbringing/whatever.
  107. Profile photo of Dedfink
    Dedfink Female 18-29
    247 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 8:12 pm
    I think that was very nicely done. Maybe there`s hope for politians yet.
  108. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31777 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 8:12 pm
    OK so I suppose it follows that homosexuality is no less objectionable than usage of birth control then? - Boadicea
    Noooo, "objectionable" is a human emotion. Mother Nature has no such qualms. It is just as "un-natural" yes, but so are many things we humans like to do.
    If you don`t replicate your DNA then tough cookies for you! It`s not happy or sad, just reality.

    @iceblack: I snorted when I read "made us the only species... that isn`t in danger to disappear" that`s REALLY funny!
  109. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31777 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 8:24 pm
    So where did all these priests `learn` to be homosexual pedophiles? From the very church that condemns it? - nettech98
    Noooo, they `learned` their pedophilia before they entered the clergy (no pun intended!) based on: predispositons & nurture. Then they sought out a "safe haven" to carry out their pedophilic ways, since it`s "illegal" to bugger small boys in Canada and the USA these days...

    @Heureux: you`re an idiot. fyi bro!

    @IceDragon77 I disagree with you (kinda) but at least you give valid arguements! And you`re polite :-)

  110. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 8:42 pm
    Lots of people talk to themselves Hereaux. It`s not an experience with God. Scientists can stimulate a part of the brain to give the God experience but it isn`t God.
  111. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 8:54 pm
    @Heureux I said the bible was written by "man" attempting to make the point that it`s not supernatural or written by a deity. Of course men write books, both science and fiction.
  112. Profile photo of BigDaddyJeff
    BigDaddyJeff Male 40-49
    368 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 9:21 pm
    "How many gays does God have to create before we realize that he wants them?"

    "How many pedophiles does God have to make befoe we realize that he wants them?"

    "How many drunkards/drug addicts does God have to make befoe we realize that he wants them?"

    "How many radical Islamists does God have to make befoe we realize that he wants them?"

    "How many Christians does God have to make befoe we realize that he wants them?"

    All valid questions I guess...
  113. Profile photo of HumboldtPie
    HumboldtPie Male 18-29
    311 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 9:28 pm
    To me, religion should be something that each person accepts if they believe in it, but nothing that should be forced on others. The laws that you abide by (like not being homosexual?) should apply to you if you want, but shouldn`t be something that everyone has to abide by, especially if it doesn`t affect you in the lest...unless your mormon. In that case your entire afterlife is totally screwed - just cause for concern...
  114. Profile photo of HumboldtPie
    HumboldtPie Male 18-29
    311 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 9:29 pm
    least*
  115. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 9:46 pm
    @Bigdaddyjeff: You totally missed the point. I will spell it out for you.

    "How many gays does God have to create before we realize that he wants them?" Gay is not a choice. You are or aren`t born that way.

    "How many pedophiles does God have to make befoe we realize that he wants them?" Pedophilia is a choice. People aren`t born pedophiles.

    "How many drunkards/drug addicts does God have to make befoe we realize that he wants them?" Drug addiction is a choice. People aren`t born addicted to drugs. Don`t bring up crack babies. Totally different.

    "How many radical Islamists does God have to make befoe we realize that he wants them?" Choice of religion is exactly that, a choice. You can choose to be Islamic, or you can choose to NOT be.

    "How many Christians does God have to make befoe we realize that he wants them?" Once again. A choice.

    To sum up...

    BEING GAY IS NOT A CHOICE. Y
  116. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 9:47 pm
    YOU EITHER ARE, OR YOU AREN`T.
  117. Profile photo of xXvietemoXx
    xXvietemoXx Male 13-17
    26 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:32 pm
    Bravo.
    Gays are people that are created with predetermined sexuality. you cant change that.
    AND you know what? god does love everyone. Even radical drating islamic extemists. It clearly says he loves dratING EVERYONE. Everyone gets a chance to belive. Wether or not they choose to is their choice. Its true. How many goddamned gay and lesbian humans does god have to create before you stupid apes get it? Hopefully your children and their children dont make the same mistakes of the old generations. The hate of the past is over. Look forward to a future of hope.
  118. Profile photo of xXvietemoXx
    xXvietemoXx Male 13-17
    26 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 10:59 pm
    Zombieland- Your opion dosent matter anymore. Ever. Your a hateful spiteful bastard. There isint going to be any need for people like you in the future becasuse if we still have people elike you there will always be war and death for no reason. Get the hell over it. These people are gay and their staying. You are the one thats going to fade out.
  119. Profile photo of xXvietemoXx
    xXvietemoXx Male 13-17
    26 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 11:05 pm
    and further more. It dosent really matter if you hate gays or not. Becasue if anybody wants to go anywhere in the world they need to stop hating and start accepting. If you hate "queers" your whole life your just making the world worse by oppresing someone. And not only that but if you are being ignorant and hating gays then you deserve to be called a stupid redneck casue you are one. Maybe not a redneck. But a stupid mother f-u-c-k-e-r. People like zombieland or white supremisist groups, islamic extremists, gun tottng astards thinkg there word is better then yours. Thinking THEIR god is better then yours. Screw you all. Your all the same. Every stupid racist and gay basher here is exactly the same as an islamic extremists. So F-U-C-K YOU.
  120. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36198 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 11:13 pm

    @ BigDaddyJeff - gawd I hope one of your kids turns out gay
  121. Profile photo of Rizel
    Rizel Male 18-29
    213 posts
    May 5, 2011 at 11:45 pm
    XXvietemoXx....tell us how you really feel. Let it all out.
  122. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 12:00 am
    madest

    Why is this so difficult for you?

    "Lots of people talk to themselves Hereaux"

    Homophobes make a parallel argument to denounce homosexuality: "lots of people do things that they know are wrong but claim are good"

    Your dismissal of most of humanity`s experience of the Divine is simply prejudice, just like homophobia. You assume that your individual life experience, or lack thereof, defines what is possible for everyone else who ever lived.

    Just the way homophobes believe that their sexuality proves that no one else ever genuinely experiences love and desire for someone of their own gender.

    "It`s not an experience with God."

    Homophobes insist that what GLBTQ people experience is not love. But just as you cannot know what any person of faith experiences better than they do, homophobes cannot know better than GLBTQ people what we experience.

  123. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 12:04 am
    "Scientists can stimulate a part of the brain to give the God experience but it isn`t God."

    No, that is not exactly what few studies have demonstrated. For some of the subjects, the experiments produced something similar to what some people of faith experience.

    Of course, reality is full of similar things and experiences that are not the same thing - from heartburn that feels like a heart attack to the faux emotions of sociopaths.

    Your doing everything but address the actual point I raised, madest. Why the diversions? Does the fact that both homophobes and atheists reject, out of hand and without evidence of their own, the experiences of other human beings in order to exalt their own egos make you uncomfortable?

    5cats: Calling me names means you cannot refute anything I have presented. Name-calling is a behavior that homophobes resort all the time, the moment their prejudice is criticized.

  124. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 12:09 am
    IceDragon

    I got the point that you posted the same ugly interpretation of our lives that every other homophobe uses.

    You seem to be avoiding the point I made - you are wrong. GLBTQ people are not forcing anything on anyone, but we live in a society that still punishes us for our sexuality for one

    one

    one

    reason: to coerce us into being or at least living as if we were heterosexuals.

    "You dont know, you just assumed since (im guessing you just looked at my profile) and saw I was Christian and instantly thought I was a bible thumper, "

    Interesting set of assumptions, there. I responded solely to what you wrote. And your story is just too similar to the lies that professional homophobes tell to justify their prejudice.

    The reality, IceDragon, is that heterosexuals force their sexuality on the rest of us - and then pretend we are the ones coercing, punishing, killing and beating to get our way.
  125. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 12:14 am
    IrishJesus:
    "Atheists are not comparable in that way. Atheism is just a belief, like any religion. "

    No. Atheism is the explicit belief that there is no god - which means that all of the billions of people who have experienced the Divine in some way, are just automatically wrong. You were right on one thing - atheism is just a belief, an ugly one, but it is not science or fact.

    Of course, homophobes mischaracterize their contempt for GLBTQ people as `just a belief` as well, so you have demonstrated one of the ways that atheism is like homophobia.

    And you haven`t addressed the actual, real life parallel I have mentioned several times now.

    A prejudice is just a belief, an ugly and dehumanizing one, that characterizes an entire subset of humanity as inferior, flawed, etc. Homophobia does that to GLBTQ people. Racism does that to people based on their race. Atheism does it to people of faith.
  126. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 12:19 am
    madest

    "@Heureux I said the bible was written by "man" attempting to make the point that it`s not supernatural or written by a deity. Of course men write books, both science and fiction."

    And it was a meaningless point that serves only as an avoidance tactic. Christians and Jews do not assert that the Bible was written by God, though they do assert that specific passages are the record of first hand accounts of communication from God - a very different thing.

    Homophobes deny the experiences of GLBTQ people, insisting that we "chose to be gay", "don`t feel love" and so on. Atheists deny the experiences of people of faith, dismissing our experiences as "talking to yourself" or "fantasy or delusion".

    So, how is any atheist any better, ethically, than any homophobe? It is the same process of ego and dismissal, whether it is a homophobe doing it or an atheist.
  127. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 12:24 am
    Boadicea

    "science is not just something people wrote about because it sounded good,"

    Neither is religion. And, much of the science that has passed as fact over the centuries was little more than `it sounded good`.

    "it`s testable and provable in nature."
    For some people, just like religion. Most humans could not reproduce the experiments that support particle physics, or most of biochemistry for that matter, yet atheists take that on faith, choosing to believe the testimony of scientists.

    Even though, more than a few have falsified their research or just been wrong. Anything in science that you cannot personally duplicate, you take on faith. We all do.

    But atheists refuse to believe the testimony of people of faith about their experiences, refuse frankly, to even make the appropriate effort necessary to experience the same or similar things.
  128. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 12:28 am
    Boadicea

    You are missing the point, or avoiding it. Science and religion are both based on direct, personal experience of something, and more and more, science is becoming as untestable for the average person as atheists (wrongly) claim spirituality is.

    "Science and faith are NOT the same thing,"
    Didn`t say they were.

    "Maybe a pretty sunset or whatever is `proof` of God to you,"

    One of the symptoms of prejudice is the tendency to replace the real examples given with fantasy and projection. Your characterization of people experiences of the Divine above is as patronizing and offensive as the way homophobes characterize the love between two men or two women as `lust`.

    "Saying "God doesn`t exist" is to me basically the exact same thing as saying "God exists". "

    But that is not how science works.

  129. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 12:34 am
    Boadicea

    re: God exists/God does not exist) "They`re opinions based on absolutely nothing but your own personal feelings/upbringing/whatever."

    No.

    People`s belief in the Divine (using that word to be inclusive of all religious experience) has multiple foundations. For some, possibly most, it is based on some direct, personal experience, large or small. Like science, where some people have actually experienced some result to some experiment.

    And yeah, there are some people of faith whose spirituality is based, at least at the moment, in believing other people when they testify about their experiences of the Divine. Like the way most people alive rely on the testimony of scientists telling us about their experiments.

    And of course, like the way heterosexuals have to rely on the testimony of homosexuals about what it is like to be gay.

    But - homophobes refuse to believe homosexuals, and atheists refuse to believe people of
  130. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 12:40 am
    Boadicea

    And anyone else who cares even slightly,

    Keep one thing in mind - there is no evidence to support the claim "God does not exist". It is a completely unfalsifiable, and therefore, unscientific claim.

    Atheism, like homophobia and racism, is not based on evidence. It is based on denial. Both are nothing more than a way to exalt one`s self by tearing others down.

    But religion, spirituality, is based on something - the experiences of real human beings, for as long as we have been leaving records of any kind behind. All that evidence, the trustworthiness and integrity of billions of human beings, is simply dismissed by atheists out of pride.

    Atheism is a prejudice just like homophobia, and when people endorse any prejudice, including atheism, they nurture all of them. Atheists who get all high-n-mighty at religious homophobes are simply hypocrites - bigots of one flavor criticizing bigots of other flavor.
  131. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 12:45 am
    Just to really drive home the point:

    Atheism is based entirely on some people`s lack of experience of something, namely the Divine.

    Homophobia is based entirely on some people`s lack of experience of something, namely same-sex sexual, romantic, emotional and spiritual attraction.

    Both fabricate justifications and explanations to make their prejudice appear noble, right, good, empowering, for the good of humanity. Both twist and distort any thing to advance their case, while dismissing and denouncing the first hand, direct experiential testimony of people who are actually experiencing something real, meaningful, and beneficial.
  132. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 12:49 am
    Gerry1of1

    Because BigDaddyJeff equated the loving relationships between two men or two women with forms of rape and destructive behaviors, it would be best if he never has any kids, is never around any kids, in fact, is never unsupervised.

    Anyone who cannot distinguish between mutual love and respect, and harming people, cannot be trusted by anyone, with anyone or anything, ever.
  133. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 12:55 am
    Humboldtpie

    You wrote: "laws that you abide by (like not being homosexual?) should apply to you if you want, but shouldn`t be something that everyone has to abide by,"

    You are one to something very important here. There`s a theory going around that homophobes, and social conservatives in general, religious legalists, etc - are basically people who fear that if society does not stridently condemn "bad things" - they themselves will not be able to not do those things.

    I.e. - Fundie Fred says "homosexuality must be illegal, otherwise I will cheat on my wife with other men". Not that he actually is gay, just that he fears he could not control himself without pressure from society.

    They want society to enforce these personal decisions because they fear they cannot control their own selves on their own.
  134. Profile photo of Student_Law
    Student_Law Male 30-39
    1010 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 1:26 am
    I feel sorry for heterosexual people who actually manage to spend time hating gay people. What is your problem, really? What are you afraid of? You speak of pervertion. Don`y you know that the only thing unnatural is voilence? If you want to be anti- nature, just continue your constant attack on love and sexuality. And since you are so keen on bringing up nature, well there are several species that have gay tendencies. Also, keep in mind that spieces evolve by adaption and mutation. It is not the "typical" elements within a group that brings it forwards and assures it`s evolving.

    The strengt of a group lies within diversity, likeness is a weakness. Both socially and genetically.

    To hate the different, is to hate nature itself.
  135. Profile photo of ak47reaper
    ak47reaper Male 18-29
    117 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 1:34 am
    Atheism is a belief not a prejudice. Every atheist doesn`t try to get people not to believe. Nor they care if other people believe. most just want to live there lives.

    I also know not all theist seek to save my eternal soul. But there are those just as self righteous as atheists.

    Now this is not to say I`m atheist. I am omni-theist. That is that I believe in all pantheons/religions thought i do not worship. I believe, I also believe that living a good and noble life will satisfy them all. I believe that this will let me choose where i spend eternity.
  136. Profile photo of IceDragon77
    IceDragon77 Male 18-29
    490 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 1:37 am
    Heureux... Omfg.. I said im not a homophobe and I SUPPORT GLBT PEOPLE. And all I was stating were my experiences. I know it could be different elsewhere, but those there MY experiences. Thats all im saying. Im not saying all are like that because I know that not to be true.
    Im not against the whole thing as you seem to think I am, I just dont like it when SOME (not all) are rude and have tried to stuff it down my throat before (no pun intended).

    And ill say it again in case you skim over what I said.. I AM NOT AGAINST GBLT PEOPLE AT ALL, I SUPPORT THEM.
  137. Profile photo of ak47reaper
    ak47reaper Male 18-29
    117 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 1:38 am
    the world is full of none human violence. the males of many species fight and kill each other over the right to mate with a female. so violence is natural.
  138. Profile photo of ak47reaper
    ak47reaper Male 18-29
    117 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 1:48 am
    the world is full of none human violence. the males of many species fight and kill each other over the right to mate with a female. so violence is natural.
  139. Profile photo of Student_Law
    Student_Law Male 30-39
    1010 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 2:30 am

  140. Profile photo of sulu
    sulu Male 18-29
    994 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 3:22 am
    Heurex is strawman arguing so badly it hurts.
  141. Profile photo of kingdomCome
    kingdomCome Male 18-29
    338 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 4:48 am
    Heureux, you obviously feel very strongly about the subject.
    "No. Atheism is the explicit belief that there is no god - which means that all of the billions of people who have experienced the Divine in some way, are just automatically wrong."

    I could equally say theism is the explicit belief that there is a god - which means that all of the billions of people who do not believe in the divine in some way, are just automatically wrong.

    Which, by your own argument means every single one of us is prejudiced.

    I happen to disagree, I believe prejudice involves something other than simply believing someone to be wrong, it involves negative feelings because of this belief. Which I don`t think the majority of atheists have (personal experience only you understand).

    However, the majority of the world`s religions teach the fact that to not believe is in some way wrong, a negative reflection on the person. This rather suggests that the majority of
  142. Profile photo of kingdomCome
    kingdomCome Male 18-29
    338 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 4:49 am
    * theists are prejudiced
  143. Profile photo of xXvietemoXx
    xXvietemoXx Male 13-17
    26 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 4:55 am
    @Rizel
    Hey dont blame me just becasue of the screen name haha. I tried to change it i know its lame lol. Really lame haha.
  144. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 6:45 am
    If there is a God science will find him before the Pope.
  145. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36198 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 7:21 am

    "science is not just something people wrote about because it sounded good"


    WRONG

    I hate to side with the homo-haters but actually,
    that is a part of science. A BIG part.

    It`s called `hypothesis` but it just means "that sounds good"

    of course, real science will change it`s mind and view based on fact
    whereas religionists refuse to face facts so that`s the fundamental differance.
  146. Profile photo of Boadicea
    Boadicea Female 18-29
    1678 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 8:31 am
    Heureux... I don`t even know what to say to most of what you wrote. Not all atheists are running around thinking theists are dumb or insane (obviously I know a lot are though)-- most of them just think "I have no reason or desire to believe in God, so I don`t"-- it`s not a prejudice against people who do anymore than believing in God is a prejudice against people who don`t. Some of the arguments you`re making are just... odd. I`m going to agree to disagree (or just plainly disagree, whatever) and back slowly out of this thread now.

    Gerry: Point taken, bad choice of words on my part.
  147. Profile photo of Garu
    Garu Male 30-39
    562 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 12:54 pm
    "Keep applause to yourselves!" Wall-eyed idiot
  148. Profile photo of bridog6996
    bridog6996 Male 18-29
    571 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 3:18 pm
    I think the fact that homosexuality exists in animal species other than humans is strong evidence that it`s not a lifestyle choice.
  149. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 4:05 pm
    Even it it were a choice this is America. We`re free to do as we please (supposedly).
  150. Profile photo of peloos12
    peloos12 Male 18-29
    3825 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 4:44 pm
    I`ve been coming here for a long time. As a lurker, regular commenter, OF participator, regular chat goer and a former mod who had to monitor comments every single day on every single thread as if it were my job, I`ve read thousands upon thousands of comments on this site. And as any regular user knows, there are some insanely intelligent people who chime in on some of the toughest topics imaginable.

    All of that rambled, I don`t know if I`ve ever seen somebody hit a home run with a string of comments like Heureux just did. 100% on point with everything he said. Just wanted to acknowledge that.
  151. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 5:22 pm
    Atheism is a belief not a prejudice.

    i) Atheism is not necessarily a belief. The essence of atheism is *lack* of belief. Some atheists have beliefs concerning religion, some don`t.

    ii) Only a few deeply irrational theist bigots think atheism is prejudice. Using reason to argue against it is pointless - if they were capable of reason they wouldn`t think it in the first place.
  152. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 5:37 pm
    skip ahead to 1:30 for actual question.

    Question assumes gays are born that way, like a birth defect. I find the assumption insulting.

    The question does not assume either. If you listen to the whole sentence rather than just part of it (it starts about 1:20) you`ll notice that he clearly does not make the first assumption that you refer to. "If <x> is true then what does it mean?" is very different to stating "<x> is assumed to be true".

    As for your second assumption, that`s entirely your own and it`s wholly unreasonable to put it on him. Even if he had assumed that sexual orientation is fixed before birth (which he hadn`t done), doing so is not the same as assuming that homosexuality is a birth defect. For example, which hand you will favour may well be fixed before you are born. Do you assume that everyone who thinks it might be must assume that left-handedness is a birth defect?
  153. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 5:42 pm
    peloos12:

    Try posting once with anything less than 100% agreement with Heureux and see if his response changes your opinion. I`ll bet a £20 note against half a bent paperclip that he`d flame you and say you`re extremely, probably violently, prejudiced against homosexuals and/or theists.
  154. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 5:54 pm
    I see more people missing the point, so I`ll reply again.

    The entire purpose of this thread (see the title of it) is the argument that the existence of a non-trivial number of <x> is proof of divine approval of <x>.

    When people use something almost universally seen as being wrong as <x>, they are doing so *to illustrate that the argument is wrong.*

    It does not mean that they are arguing that completely different values of <x> are the same.

  155. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31777 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 6:47 pm
    @peloos12, cheezus! I thought he was a babbling idiot who made little to zero sense! Also displayed a hugely biased world-view and bigoted, narrow-minded hatred of anyone who DARED disagree with him.

    Everyone has their own opinion, eh?
  156. Profile photo of intrigid
    intrigid Male 18-29
    914 posts
    May 6, 2011 at 11:57 pm
    "Atheism is not necessarily a belief. The essence of atheism is *lack* of belief."

    The essence of religion is also a lack of belief. The essence of atheism is a belief.
  157. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 7, 2011 at 6:25 pm
    Mainly for anyone who thinks Heureux has a point:

    Before making a serious decision, do you consult an augurer to determine the will of the gods from omens such as the direction of flight of some birds?

    Do you sacrifice to Neptune in thanks for a safe journey by sea? Or to Juno Moneta for prosperity?

    If not, why not? A significant proportion of the world`s population believed in those things (and many others), so according to Heureux`s central line of argument about religion and science those things are as real and true as vaccines, antibiotics, the computer you`re using right now and all the innumerable other results of science that hugely improve our lives.

    So if you agree with him, why don`t you do them? Them and the millions of others things people have believed in for the multitude of religions that exist or have existed.
  158. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 7, 2011 at 6:30 pm
    The essence of religion is also a lack of belief.

    What reason do you have to say that? The essence of religion is accepting things as true without evidence, i.e. belief. Faith.

    The essence of atheism is a belief.

    Lack of belief is not a belief. It doesn`t matter how many times anyone says that lack of belief is a belief, it won`t become true.

    Athiesm is a belief in the same way that not playing sport is a sport. I`m not writing a book - does that mean I`m an author? I`m not an acrobat - does that mean I`m an acrobat? I`m not an elephant - does that mean I`m an elephant?

    It`s a silly idea.
  159. Profile photo of Joeraccoon
    Joeraccoon Male 18-29
    191 posts
    May 8, 2011 at 9:01 pm
    Lack of belief is not a belief. It doesn`t matter how many times anyone says that lack of belief is a belief, it won`t become true.

    The theory of "god" cannot be disproven, or disproven, until there is factual scientific evidence one way or the other, which is impossible given the superpowers this supreme being is capable of. This argument will go on forever, can we quit talking about it outside of church? Anyway, if there was solid evidence that god didnt exist, it would not be a belief, but the fact remains that the only guarantee in life is that you exist, everything else could, conceivably, be a figment of your imagination, i choose to believe that what i see is real, but cannot stretch my mind to believe in the immaterial, i mean, your parents lied about santa, and the easter bunny, too. Are these that much more ridiculous than an omniscient "space ghost?" still, i will never try to take religion from someone else. Religion makes people happy, gives t
  160. Profile photo of chimmeychang
    chimmeychang Male 30-39
    685 posts
    May 20, 2011 at 7:44 am
    @santhon
    "Well evolution for starters. As a species our DNA wants to replicate itself and pass itself down to offspring. How does homosexuality help accomplish that goal?"

    right, have you ever considered that homosexuality might just be a facet of nature you don`t like? Have you ever considered that maybe its becoming more prevalent as our populations grow unchecked? Also, if you quit offering oral sex to strange men in bathrooms, you might have less homosexuality shoved down your throat. the lights are on, but the closet door is shut.

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