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Date: 03/21/11 09:01 AM

98 Responses to Story Of Citizens United V. FEC, The Critique

  1. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33083 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 9:04 am
    Link: Story Of Citizens United V. FEC, The Critique - Lee Doren rips Annie`s lies and distortions apart, again! With links to prove what he says.
  2. Profile photo of fivezones
    fivezones Male 40-49
    1021 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 9:29 am
    Facts and logic: The enemies of the liberal
  3. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36829 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 9:33 am

    blah blah blah - took way too long to say simple things. 18 minutes! too long

    Corporations buy politicians.
    Politicians will never pass laws that limit corporations who get them elected.

    I`m not making a judgement, it`s just an observation.
  4. Profile photo of ADRUNKHOBO
    ADRUNKHOBO Male 18-29
    295 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 9:34 am
    INCOMING FLAME WAAAAAR! DUUUUUUUUUCK!
  5. Profile photo of Kougaiji
    Kougaiji Male 18-29
    604 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 9:40 am
    Ah a 5Cats link.
  6. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 9:49 am
    Why do people make these videos that pick apart other videos?

    *play a clip* *pause it* *insert my very extremely awesome opinion* *repeat*

    Just say what you want to say!
  7. Profile photo of bankvole
    bankvole Male 30-39
    959 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 9:56 am
    Even through this blatant propaganda I was on the side of the woman in the purple shirt.
  8. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2345 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 9:59 am
    he is right that this will allow any company of any type to spend as much money as possible however, the unintended effect of this case allows large corp`s that have the most money to spend far more than anyone else.

    The bottom line is that this decsion will allow large companies to spend billions on getting who they want to get elected.

    we will have to be VERY CAREFUL in who we vote for before checking to see where the money has come from.
  9. Profile photo of DuckBoy87
    DuckBoy87 Male 18-29
    3275 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 10:01 am
    Remember, and I`m glad he said this in a way, liberal media outlets are corporations too. They have their own agendas wanting their own candidates to get in as well.

    Her video is basically about "I don`t want your politician in there, only mine."
  10. Profile photo of DuckBoy87
    DuckBoy87 Male 18-29
    3275 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 10:05 am
    Because Halfpintroo, that`s what a critique is. Just like a written critique you should cite your source, (author, page) then talk about it, whether you like it or dislike it, what you would change, and what`s your opinion, etc.

    If you only want to talk about segment A, only cite segment A. Who cares about segment B if you`re talking about segment A?
  11. Profile photo of OutWest
    OutWest Male 50-59
    546 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 10:27 am
    again do Corporations pay taxes? Should they have a voice if so?

    Is this how Obama got elected? Corporations paid for it?
  12. Profile photo of Volsunga
    Volsunga Male 18-29
    1548 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 10:42 am
    I usually hate Lee Doren for his hyperbole, but this was remarkably well done and accurate. He may have went a little overboard saying that the outcome would be illegal searches and seizures being justified, but the rest of the video is surprisingly balanced.

    @Madest
    A corporation is nothing but a group of people organizing together for mutual interest with legal backing. Every interest group is incorporated. You don`t fight an interest group you oppose by cutting off their right to speak. You fight them by joining an interest group/corporation that fights for your platform.

    As for the length of this video, this is the nature of all youtube camwhores. It is also the nature of simple logic. It will always take more time to debunk false claims than to make the claims themselves. Looks like some people are suffering from tl;dr syndrome, don`t forget to apply directly to the forehead, apply directly to the forehead, apply directly to the forehead. The shortest claim i
  13. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33083 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 10:43 am
    @outwest: yup, yup yup aaaand YUP!

    @madest: it always takes longer to tell the truth as opposed to reciting some `factiod`. Remeber the Alamo!! as oppsed to the actual history of the Mexican - American wars...
    Corporations have other rights (as explained in the video) AND some Corps can do political stuff, but others cannot - by law? That `law` violated the First Amendment, so says the SCOTUS. You`d never know what it was even about watching Annie`s video, eh?

    @fivezones - too true! You`re ducking already I see... lolz!

    @bankvole - perhaps it would be better if Lee had beewbs too? Naw, he`d still look goofie. ;-)
  14. Profile photo of Kougaiji
    Kougaiji Male 18-29
    604 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 11:02 am
    So not only is the government totally and entirely corrupted by special-interest lobbying from corporations whose influence and size does not proportionally represent the nation`s demographics; but there are still a few (really, most republicans I`ve met oppose the ruling, but I digress) middle-class right wingers who actually like it that way and want to have even less of a voice? wat.

    I`d think all people are against corruption and bribery. When a corporation approaches a politician with hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars and gifts while suggesting they vote a certain way, THAT IS BRIBERY. Increasing/Removing the limits of corporate influence on the republic should be a terrible thing, and would be met by riots in any civilized nation. Instead we have fools on the left and fools on the right that dislike everything the other does without realizing they have a common enemy.
  15. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 11:08 am
    Man the "hillbilly right" are dense.
  16. Profile photo of davisboy
    davisboy Male 30-39
    587 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 11:52 am
    I just thank God that Hillary didn`t get elected.
  17. Profile photo of SPrinkZ
    SPrinkZ Male 18-29
    2280 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 12:28 pm
    "Facts and logic: The enemies of the redneck."

    Fixed.
  18. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 12:35 pm
    *Reads link description on homepage. Lays a little bet with himself that it`s a 5Cats submission. Clicks link. Wins again*
  19. Profile photo of Dessic
    Dessic Male 30-39
    8 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 12:36 pm
    "but what this doesn`t address is the constitution wasn`t written for corporations because corporations weren`t in existence when the constitution was written."

    The First Amendment doesn`t specify who has and who doesn`t have a right to free speech; it just says Congress can`t pass laws that abridge free speech in any way.
  20. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 1:45 pm
    I`m not disagreeing with what he said in the video. I haven`t read the case, but I know the basics and I know that it really doesn`t affect direct monetary contributions like everyone says it does.

    However, I would like to know how the First Amendment got corrupted to the point that, while it was originally the right to critique the government and call it out without being shot, now it`s about invading people`s privacy and effectively bribing public officials...
  21. Profile photo of alibi19
    alibi19 Male 18-29
    73 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 1:49 pm
    This video is so full of win
  22. Profile photo of nick9399
    nick9399 Male 18-29
    59 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 2:09 pm
    patchouly
    "Man the "hillbilly right" are dense."

    Why is that? Both sides have idiots. I don`t think Democrats or Republicans want our country to fail, they just have different views on what is best for our country. What would people think of me if I said "Man, the "hippie left" are too high to realize what is going on."?

    SPrinkZ "Facts and logic: The enemies of the redneck."

    Fixed.

    Way to stereotype. What brought that on?
  23. Profile photo of lectricmonk
    lectricmonk Male 30-39
    8 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 2:14 pm
    He keeps saying "Ironic". I don`t think he knows what that means. The video is about the danger unlimited corporate contributions to the election process poses to a free democracy. This guy seems to think it`s about bashing corporations. And he doesn`t take for granted that corporations don`t have the best interest of the people in mind whenever they do anything. If your argument is that sometimes corporations are altruistic, and would never use their power to unfairly influence politics in order to maximize profits at the expense of the good of the common people, then you`re wrong and anybody will tell you that. Citing examples of left leaning organizations and saying "they do it too" isn`t an argument for that kind of corruption. Annie`s point is that this need to stop, totally, and even her incorporated animation studio shouldn`t have that kind of power. Weather the U.S. is an democracy or a constitutional republic doesn`t have any bearing on the fight against de
  24. Profile photo of antagonizer
    antagonizer Male 18-29
    508 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 2:27 pm
    Mom and Pop incorporations in the same category as huge conglomerates? LOL

    Video Fail
  25. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 2:28 pm
    madest: The facts are Citizens United vs. FEC was not about giving corporations human rights. Corporations will never be able to vote, and no matter how much they spend on tv ads or billboards, I believe the American people are more politically informed now than they ever have been. The FEC, FCC, nor any other government entity has the right to abridge free speech, including the speech of unions, non-profits, for-profits, or the mom and pop store down the street.
  26. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 2:31 pm
    antagonizer: Under the law, there are different types of corporations with different rules. Actually the bigger the corporation the more rules the government demands that they follow. Mom and Pop stores with a dozen employees or so actually are much freer and have less restrictions on them than the big corporations.
  27. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 3:36 pm
    Facts and logic doesnt have to make a good arguement.
  28. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 4:23 pm
    madest: Going by that logic you should recuse yourself from this post because you can`t be an impartial mod on this subject.
  29. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 4:36 pm
    Since when did madest get bumped up from a Content mod to an Overall mod?
  30. Profile photo of gbrzeatetee
    gbrzeatetee Male 30-39
    174 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 4:45 pm
    Loonies. Don`t watch it.
  31. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 5:08 pm
    madest: Going by that logic you should recuse yourself from this post because you can`t be an impartial mod on this subject.
    Oh, shut up. Since when were Mods not allowed to have an opinion? We`re all users too. You and I have been at each other`s throats hundreds of times on these boards on subjects such as evolution, homosexuality, politics and religion. You`ve never suggested I "recuse" myself from such posts.

    All Mods are entirely impartial where it matters - approving content, deleting posts where appropriate (pretty much confined to spam and porn), and delivering the banhammer to people who break the rules (of which there are very few, this is I-A-B). In fact, all Mods Madest included, approve many links which are contrary to our own personal views, as long as they meet the Prime Directive: to relieve boredom.
  32. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 5:25 pm
    davymid: You just made my argument for Clarence Thomas for me, Thank You.

    All supreme court justices have opinions, but they are to be impartial where it matters.

    I`m sorry if you or madest took my comment seriously, It was meant as demonstrating absurdity by being equally absurd.
  33. Profile photo of chrn368
    chrn368 Male 18-29
    174 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 5:30 pm
    He makes some valid points, but a lot of his statements are logically flawed, and a lot of them are just opinion, not fact. Corporations do run the country (unfortunately because their unregulated business practices are running the countries economy into the ground) it doesn`t take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
  34. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 5:32 pm
    Oh! Crakr, my bad, I haven`t been following the post. Didn`t realise you were just making a relevant point, my apologies!
  35. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 5:33 pm
    Don`t really care about the original video and this. Both are corrupt hyperbole assertions.
  36. Profile photo of TheGrinder
    TheGrinder Male 13-17
    29 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 5:41 pm
    Things like this are hard to understand without doing you own homework. This video is just like the 8 minute one he critiqued they`re personal veiws are put into a video and then set in front of you to decide whether you agree or not. I personally believe that they both have strong arugements and weak points.
  37. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 6:01 pm
    davymid: No problem dude. :-)
  38. Profile photo of Alpha1971
    Alpha1971 Male 30-39
    364 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 6:48 pm
    Seriously?

    Can`t we go back to watching accidental nut shots?

    This site is called I-AM-BORED, Not I-AM-POLITICALLY-OUTRAGED...
  39. Profile photo of inversegrav
    inversegrav Male 30-39
    770 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 7:46 pm
    I am in complete agreement with Alpha1971
  40. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 8:24 pm
    Here are my responses to this video
  41. Profile photo of rajdc
    rajdc Male 30-39
    9 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 8:26 pm
    he`s forgetting something. corporations are highly organized and have tons of money to spend on advertising. he keeps mentioning the unions and "citizen`s orgs" but they would not be able to compete with corps. the average citizen now have to contribute to every non-profit just so they can spend money on counter-advertising?
  42. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 11:11 pm
    Woohoo! Still at 100%.

    You do realize that "It has links, ergo it is correct" is not a valid argument right?

    Quick question: If I can provide more links than you can, will you concede *any* point ever raised by me against a point you have raised?

    The video also misses the point of the original, builds a strawman, uses false analogy, and then backs up all those poor arguments with links.

    Giving examples of left leaning organizations doing it? Awesome, ban that too. The point is not "the right do it!", the point is "It is wrong to do it".

    Backing up that statement with 1000 links changes not a thing. Hell even if 100% of corporate money goes to Dems, I`m *still* opposed to corporate influence of government.

    Because I have a principle at the core of my argument, not a viewpoint.
  43. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 11:24 pm
    Incidentally, as someone who (until very recently) worked for a multi-billion dollar company, I can assure you we can impact the decision making process of the public.

    I can also assure you that it is definately not in the best interest of the people of the countries impacted.

    Long story short, we changed the law in two countries.
    In one we got one law (because it was profitable).
    In another we got the removal of the same law (because it was profitable).

    In at least one of these countries (because they were opposites), the people are at a disadvantage now.
  44. Profile photo of Omphaloskept
    Omphaloskept Male 40-49
    181 posts
    March 21, 2011 at 11:35 pm
    The attempt by conservative pundits to subvert elementary school vocabulary is one of my pet peeves. It is perfectly acceptable to refer to the United States as a democracy because it is one.
  45. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 12:09 am
    Omphaloskept: You`re confused about the terms. We do not live in a democracy, that would entail every voter in America voting on every issue be it federal, state, county, and local. That would be a huge burden on people to keep track of and would require monthly or perhaps even weekly ballots. That sort of `democracy` would be too expensive to manage and too slow to act. However, we are a relatively `democratic` country because we do have free elections of our representatives, constitutional amendments, and other issues.
  46. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 12:15 am
    Baal: Maybe you are unaware of this, but because of McCain-Feingold law all political tv ads have to include the name of the group(s) or corporations that bought the ad and those groups and corporations have to disclose who is giving them money as well. I do not believe corporations, unions or non-profits have so much influence over our democracy that people can not discern for themselves what is in their own best interests.

    If you believe the public is so lead by the nose of tv ads, then you are not only being incredibly condescending but elitist as well.
  47. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 1:33 am
    [quote">If you believe the public is so lead by the nose of tv ads, then you are not only being incredibly condescending but elitist as well.[/quote">

    Unfortunately, people really can BE that dumb.
  48. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 1:41 am
    I`ll also cite the notorious "CSI effect."

    Hell Cracked has demonstrated a rather frightening science behind manipulating the human mind. Cite the Asch Conformity experiments? Well I thank beforehand for backing up my argument.
  49. Profile photo of BrianBrain
    BrianBrain Male 18-29
    5 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 2:19 am
    He makes some good arguments but the biggest flaw is that he presents it so black and white; either corporations have all the rights ever or have no rights at all.
  50. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 6:12 am
    Cajun: Most of what you cite are the "hit-n-run" type of manipulation techniques, that most of us are aware of and wary of. You may fool someone once with them but it`s much harder a second time.

    We live in a society now where information is everywhere, people can do their own research and have the time to deliberate thoughtfully on the issues. Sure some people do get fooled, after all that`s how Obama got elected, but most people can eventually see through the BS and make the right decision.
  51. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 6:39 am
    I chose Obama over McCain for three reasons:

    The latter:
    1)Supported the war in Iraq which was in no way justified.
    2)He made a god awful choice for VP.
    And lastly
    3)Chuck Hagel praised Obama on multiple occasions which to me meant he knew something about McCain I didn`t.

    I would`ve gladly voted for Hillary over that ditz. I`ve would`ve voted for McCain if he chose Ron Paul as VP. But seriously Palin?
  52. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 7:14 am
    Cajun: So please tell me how the war in Libya is `justified` ? Besides the fact they have lots of oil.

    Biden is a babbling bumbling baboon, He should`ve chosen Hillary but neither of their egos would allow that.

    Chuck Hagel was only 1 or 2 senators that voted against the "The Surge" in Iraq, That worked by the way, and is now thought of as a RINO (Republican in name only). He retired from being a senator and we republicans don`t miss him.
  53. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 7:35 am
    madest: So the republican platform is profits over everything else even at the cost of the middle class.

    I see you`ve fully bought into the socialist class-warfare bullcrap that our educational system in this country has been foisting on American children for decades now.

    Might I remind you that globalists like Wilson, FDR, Truman, Carter, and Bill Clinton that lead up to NAFTA, which Clinton signed into law. These same democrats, plus now Obama, are more than willing to allow the UN to govern and make laws over the USA.

    Obama is supposedly `The leader of the free world` yet he acquiesces to the will of the UN instead of his own citizenry. He`s spineless internationally, and dangerously indecisive during a crisis.

    You may hate Palin, But there is no uncertainty in her. You know where she stands and she wouldn`t dither during a dilemma.
  54. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 7:49 am
    madest: I`m not told what to think or feel, I`m guided by core moral principles. I have a feeling you are following the first rule of politics here, "Always accuse your opponents of your own most obvious faults."

    You were so adamantly against `regime change` when GW Bush was in office. I know you screamed "No war for oil!", When we bombed Baghdad. Now Obama has backed into this action against Libya`s leader Gaddafi and I don`t see you taking the same stand, why ?

    The problem I have with Obama is that he didn`t take action sooner, That he DID NOT LEAD on this issue. That dithering has cost many peoples lives in Libya and the rebels there are rightfully wary of Obama.


  55. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 8:11 am
    That worked by the way

    Doesn`t make the war anymore justified. As far as babbling baboons go Sarah Palin absolutely takes the cake.
  56. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 8:16 am
    You were so adamantly against `regime change` when GW Bush was in office.

    The Iraqis didn`t want it the second time around and now they can`t even walk the streets at night. Furthermore Obama is only launching tomahawk missiles, not putting boots on the ground like Bush Junior did. This time around the Libyans absolutely wanted help and the Arab League approved. This is a US backed operation not US led.
  57. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 8:18 am
    So please tell me how the war in Libya is `justified` ?

    Are you trying to tell me it isn`t? That`s ironic coming from you.
  58. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 8:20 am
    second time around

    I was reffering to the Gulf Wars.
  59. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 8:27 am
    ...and I`ll remind you CrakrJak

    Here`s Donald Rumsfeld AND Saddam Hussein:

    ...oh wait remember that nice little summit the allies had after WWII?

    Ah yes brutal dictator Stalin sitting next to pro-Japanese-interning Roosevelt, and utterly so anticommunist-he`s-bat5h17-insane Churchill.
  60. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 8:32 am
    [quote">and is now thought of as a RINO (Republican in name only).[/quote">

    I`ll choose RINO`s over Republicans any day thank you very much.
    Here`s my two favorite groups:
    #1
    #2
  61. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 8:45 am
    OOH here`s George Bush and Hu Jintao:


    ...and boy does he just LOVE reppressing the Falun Gong, Wuighers, Christians, Tibetans and etcetera.
  62. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 10:34 am
    Cajun: Actually the Arab League backed away from supporting this new war.

    The Iraqis ... can`t even walk the streets at night.
    I`m calling bullsh|t on that assertion sir, there were barely more than 4000 people killed in Iraq in 2010 that`s less than 1/6th of the 27,897 killed in 2006.

    Iraq had a lower violent death rate last year than quite a few countries in Africa (including South Africa), South America (including Brazil) and Central America (including Venezuela), as well as popular tourist destination Jamaica.
  63. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 10:39 am
    Cajun: Are you trying to tell me it (This Libya war) isn`t?

    No, I want you to admit that this more about oil than freeing any oppressed people. Especially since we haven`t assisted the Iranians, Yemens, Bahrainians, Tunisians, Egyptians, or Algerians in their quests for freedom.
  64. Profile photo of Omphaloskept
    Omphaloskept Male 40-49
    181 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 10:59 am
    CrakrJak: Look it up. We live in a representative democracy. Period. We are not "relatively" democratic. We are not in a pseudo-, quasi-, mostly, or demi-democracy either: it`s a democracy. A republic IS a democracy. You (`cause you`ve been listening to those who are so overtaken by their partisanship they want to actually change the meaning of a word associated with a political party they only kind-of disagree with -- or `cause they`re stupid) are mistakenly using too narrow a definition of the word democracy. According to dictionary.com:

    Democracy

    –noun, plural -cies.
    1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
    2. a state having such a form of government: The United States and canada are democracies.

    See? Both direct democracy and representative democracy are democracy.
  65. Profile photo of Omphaloskept
    Omphaloskept Male 40-49
    181 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 10:59 am
    ...and sorry about my markup confusion.
  66. Profile photo of Omphaloskept
    Omphaloskept Male 40-49
    181 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 11:11 am
    Wait, Crakr: The surge worked?!? Thank God. I`m shocked that the surge was able to find WMD`s and bring the violence to an end where thousands of soldiers and two executive administrations have failed.

    Oooh. Checking on your fact`s now. Oh. By `worked` you must mean kept our troops from being slaughtered during their occupation; not bringing an end to sectarian violence, allowing our troops to come home or exonerating the Bush administration of duplicity for manipulating our nation into a war...

    Kind of a low bar, huh?
  67. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 11:26 am
    I`m not even gonna get involved in this, but...

    @Omphaloskept

    –noun, plural -cies.
    1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
    2. a state having such a form of government: The United States and canada are democracies.
    As much as I hate agreeing with Crakr...

    The definitions are severely wrong, in that the U.S. is NOT a democracy. At least, not by the first definition.

    The Supreme Power in the United States rests in the hands of the Constitution. Not even the people.

    If the "supreme power" lay in the hands of the people, they could tell you to leave your home, your wife, your kids, and all your possessions, and you wouldn`t be able to do a damn thing about it.

    Just saying.
  68. Profile photo of Omphaloskept
    Omphaloskept Male 40-49
    181 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 11:39 am
    Altaru, I have good news: you don`t have to agree with CrakrJak anymore! The constitution is not supreme: it can be changed, has been changed, and likely will be changed again. It`s just policy, not the source of our government. And it`s we the people who (through our representatives) can change it.

    Take that, United States Constitution!
  69. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 12:25 pm
    [quote">No, I want you to admit that this more about oil than freeing any oppressed people.[/quote">

    That is the most morally bankrupt rebuttal I`ve ever heard Crakr. Libyans asked for our help, all they`ve asked the world to negate Gaddafi air superioty and that`s all we`re giving them. The Iraqis did NOT want our help and there was absolutely NO evidence of a WMD program, the latter of which was the prime justification of the invasion.

    [quote">I`m calling bull[5h17"> on your assertion sir[/quote">

    An Iraqi citizen was more likely to die of a heart attack than gunfire prior to 2003. Seven years later the opposite is true.
  70. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 12:27 pm
    Iranians, Yemens, Bahrainians, Tunisians, Egyptians, or Algerians

    None of them asked for our help, the Egyptians especially don`t need our help.
  71. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 12:49 pm
    Considering our history in Iran they`ll actually ask us to stay the Hell out.
  72. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 1:51 pm
    [quote">That is the most morally bankrupt rebuttal I`ve ever heard Crakr.[/quote">

    Okay I take that part back, but be that as it may as I`ve said repeatedly the Libyans asked for our help while the Iraqis didn`t. Furthermore this situation is not of Obama`s making, and the last time we stepped into a situation like this it made us look like complete idiots (and yes that`s another Bush Jr. fu<k-up).
  73. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 4:13 pm
    The constitution is not supreme: it can be changed, has been changed, and likely will be changed again.
    By an extremely large majority, the likes of which is damn near impossible to obtain. And what do you think determines the rules for changing the document?

    That`s right, the document itself! Isn`t that something... Even changing the document effectively requires the document`s consent...

    Like I said, if the "majority rules" nature of democracy were true in the U.S., I could lead a majority attack in my small town to kick out a single family by whatever means our majority deemed fit.
  74. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 4:21 pm
    The difference between a democracy and a republic is thus: A DEMOCRACY is pure mob rule. Riots and the like are Democracy. A democracy doesn`t care what`s right or wrong, it`s what the majority wants.

    A REPUBLIC has set ground rules that even the majority can`t break.

    With a democracy, a minority has no rights. Our forefathers would have been utterly APPALLED to see America referred to as a "democracy" for this very reason.

    With a republic, all groups are protected equally under law, and nothing can take away the universally agreed upon rights.

    Wanna see a Democracy in action? Go watch a video of a lynch mob.

    Wanna see a Republic in action? Go watch a video of a fair trial in a court of law with an impartial jury.

    We are a Republic with democratic elements, not the other way around.
  75. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 4:30 pm
    Don`t you hate when people say: I`m not even gonna get involved in this, but...
    Then go on a 200 word rebuttal attempting to redefine a word? Democracy. Look it up. It`s in every dictionary.
    I will never, once in my life, understand how the hell you became a mod. But that`s beside the point.

    I WASN`T getting involved in your debate. I was pointing out to one dumbass what makes a republic and a democracy two different things.

    Obviously, you need the same lesson, dumbass.

    And look up our own Founding Fathers writing and comments. They themselves referred to America as a Republic, and no matter what your half-assed education taught you, they wanted to distance themselves from the idea of a democracy.

    While you`re at it, read our own Constitution. Not ONCE does it mention a "Democracy." It does, however, mention a "Republican form of government" in Article 4, Section IV.
  76. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 4:44 pm
    And, just to get you started on our Founding Fathers opinions of Democracy, I present you one quote...

    "All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression."
    - Thomas Jefferson himself, one of the more outspoken advocates of the majority ruling, said these words in his Inaugural address.
  77. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 7:27 pm
    Cajun: The Iraqis did ask for our help, more than once, they were let down after the first gulf war.
    It`s just sooooo hypocritical of the left to scream "No blood for oil" when GW Bush was in office, when we don`t even buy Iraqi oil because it has too high a sulphur content for our refineries. Then when Libya`s oil supply, which is the kind we do buy (light sweet crude) is effected and the price per barrel shoots over $100, then all of a sudden we are concerned for people`s freedom.

    Saddam and his sons were much more dangerous, insane and bloodthirsty than Gaddafi has ever been. Gaddafi is still an non-nice individual, he needs to be got rid of, but it wasn`t until he started bombing his oil pipelines that Obama seemed to care to do anything more than put sanctions on him.

    So lets just be clear, Your fine with "Blood for oil" just so long a democrat president is in office and he says he`s doing for `freedom fighters`, Right ?
  78. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 7:36 pm
    Cajun: Also it`s still safer to be a citizen in Iraq right now, than in South Africa, Venezuela, Brazil, Or Jamaica. Most dictatorships under report their death rates. Saddam did not count shiites or kurds as citizens of Iraq and many thousands of them died at his hands without anyone knowing. That is until US troops started to discover the mass graves in Iraq.





    Just a few of the hundreds of such sites found from the Saddam era.
  79. Profile photo of Omphaloskept
    Omphaloskept Male 40-49
    181 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 8:15 pm
    Altaru: Yes, the founding fathers were concerned about protecting the rights of minorities (well, SOME minorities - and mostly in principle only), but that has very little to do with simple fifth grade vocabulary. Democracy describes any political system where the people hold the reigns - even if they`re just the reigns of elected officials. It is entirely appropriate for the author of the original video - or anyone - to speak of the United States as a democracy.

    Now, since I - a lowly dumbass - am much more well versed than you in basic definitions, I feel completely justified in inviting you - an effing genius - (and only because you aren`t swayed by dumbass-level references like every dictionary, encyclopedia or other accepted authority on basic information) to read the entirety of the founding father`s letters your half-assed attempts to quote-mine are referencing. You will find that in EVERY case they make a distinction between DIRECT democracy and REPRESENTATIVE democrac
  80. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 8:39 pm
    Your fine with "Blood for oil" just so long a democrat president is in office and he says he`s doing for `freedom fighters`


    Nice try with a straw man CrakrJak, they stopped asking for help after Bush Sr. left them high and dry after the first time around AND for smashing their infrastructure. Since Bush Sr. wasn`t so keen on eliminating Saddam that left latter free to repress the Kurds in the north.

    Lastly, those mass graves we found were linked to atrocities commited BEFORE Bush Sr.`s involvement. So maybe you should give him credit instead.
  81. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 8:46 pm
    Again Crakr you misunderstand my position.

    We are not invading Libya, I won`t support it. We are assisting in a manner they`ve asked us to which is providing air support. It will definitely be cheaper than a full scale invasion and subsequent occupation.
  82. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 8:53 pm
    It is entirely appropriate for the author of the original video
    Not when her definition of "democracy," and the basic idea of the original video, is that we should take away the rights of different groups of individuals (in this case, the company, but who knows who might be next?) based on some belief that they shouldn`t be allowed to try and sway public influence during elections.

    In the original video, her definition of "majority" was the individuals the agreed with her, and her "minority" was the companies. She basically did (or at least tried to do) (and excuse my Godwin`s Law, but it more-or-less applies) exactly what Hitler did towards the Jews.

    "This is a group of BAD people! They shouldn`t have ANY rights, because they might use them to do bad things! We need to control them, and keep them from using their collective power to do anything that might go against us!"

    Sound familiar?
  83. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 8:57 pm
    distinction between DIRECT democracy and REPRESENTATIVE democracy
    The difference?

    It`s the difference between a mob showing up at your door and throwing you out, and having an elected representative showing up and telling you to leave.
  84. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 22, 2011 at 11:15 pm
    Cajun: We are not invading Libya...

    Not just yet, but the goal is `regime change` Obama has said so. And that will take troops on the ground at some point. At least Bush Sr. and GW Bush asked congress, and got approval, for their actions.

    Obama, one of the few that voted against to go to war in Iraq, Hasn`t even consulted congress as of yet. He`s even flip-flopped on military tribunals at Gitmo, He now supports them.

    Where is your peacnik `constitutional scholar` now ?
  85. Profile photo of Omphaloskept
    Omphaloskept Male 40-49
    181 posts
    March 23, 2011 at 4:40 am
    Altaru: I understand that you disagree with the original video and it doesn`t interest me in the least. The United States is a democracy. I know, I know: I`m a dumbass and Annie Leonard is Hitler. How insightful. But I just re-checked, and the definition of democracy hasn`t changed in spite of your thesis.
  86. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 23, 2011 at 8:02 am
    Not just yet, but the goal is `regime change` Obama has said so.

    Phase 2 as far as I`ve heard are supposed to be strictly combat air patrols. Now Germany has sent troops in to aid Libyans, in which case I don`t really care. IMO the "War Powers Act" is the greatast political farce in America next to the Articles of Confederation. The president is the Commander-in-Chief as pointed out in Art 1 Sec 1 USC. All congress can do is cut funding.
  87. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    March 23, 2011 at 8:05 am
    "War Powers Act" is the greatast political farce in America next to the Articles of Confederation.

    Well then there was Amendment 18 USC.
  88. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    March 23, 2011 at 11:50 am
    @ Altaru, Would you listen to someone lecture a group of people on the meaning of the word "democracy" if that same person didn`t understand the proper use of the word thus?
    You`re nit-picking on a f*cking TYPO to prove my ignorance?

    Look down. The letters "U" and "I" are right next to each-other on most standard QWERTY keyboards.

    Nit-picking at typos is a desperate last stand of someone who knows they`re losing.

    On top of that, you really need to find a better dictionary. Even if I HAD intended to use "thus," it wouldn`t have been wrong.

    The difference between the two is in the manner now being exemplified (a.k.a. THUS).
  89. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    March 23, 2011 at 11:58 am
    You don`t know what you`re talking about. I can prove it. Name one "direct democracy" that has ever existed, I bet you can`t.
    O rly?

    Try the Athenian Democracy. Admittedly, a fair number of people weren`t considered in standing enough to be "citizens," so they were left out, but in terms of having the people (who could) vote directly on the issue, there you have it.

    What`s your rebuttal this time? Did I mis-spell something? Or is there a grammar error?

    America was NOT meant to be a Democracy where 300 people can say and do whatever they want to the other 200, through a direct vote OR an "elected representative."

    If you want it that way, then go ahead and spread your lies and ignorance. I hope people will be smart enough to understand the reality, and fight it.

    But if they aren`t smart enough... Well, I guess I`ll be one of the first on the firing line when those 300 deem me a threat.
  90. Profile photo of Omphaloskept
    Omphaloskept Male 40-49
    181 posts
    March 23, 2011 at 12:49 pm
    Nope. I keep checking and the U.S. is still a democracy by all definitions. Keep trying, though.
  91. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    March 23, 2011 at 3:52 pm
    Never once did it lead to mass riots by the way.
    No, but ever heard of the practice of "Ostracism?"

    Yeah, they basically wrote down the name of someone they thought deserved to be exiled, and the person was kicked out of the city for 10 years. At penalty of death should they return without summons.

    They didn`t lose their possessions or their status, but that`s not the point. A majority vote allowed people to kick someone out for any reason they deemed worthwhile (it was more often than not used to prevent tyrants and the like, but again, beside the point).

    Would you agree with it if America were to suddenly be allowed to do that, and YOU, or maybe you brother or best friend, were chosen by a "body of elected representatives" to be forced out, at penalty of death, just because such was the majority`s will?
  92. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    March 23, 2011 at 3:59 pm
    As far as your use of "thus" goes. It wasn`t a typo.
    Shall I go through your past posts and list out your various mis-spellings, grammatical errors and such to point out why you`re too stupid for anyone to bother paying any attention to?

    Because that`s basically what you`re trying to do here. Pointing out the fact that I accidentally mis-use the English language on occasion.

    I recall you using some variation of the infamous "irregardless" before.

    The point being that, even if I DO mis-use a word, the pot calling the kettle black doesn`t make me wrong, or make you right.
  93. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    March 23, 2011 at 7:36 pm
    Would be a typo had you done it once. You used "thus" wrong 3 times in this thread alone. I suggest you look it up before using it again.
    Do a quick "CTRL F" search for the word "thus" on this post.

    You`ll see that I used it ONCE before your dumb ass started commenting on it.

    And that wasn`t even used wrong.

    I`m not going to take sh*t from some 40 year old man who can`t count.

    And if you can`t trust your own basic arithmetic, or know the actual meaning of the word "thus," then how can you trust your grasp of the English language? Or your understanding of government.

    Again, I will never understand how somebody as f*cking retarded as you became a mod.
  94. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    March 23, 2011 at 7:37 pm
    I`ll finish with this:

    I feel like I`ve been severely trolled.

    But I`m not feeding it anymore.

    I already feel like his stupidity has infected me...
  95. Profile photo of Omphaloskept
    Omphaloskept Male 40-49
    181 posts
    March 23, 2011 at 10:08 pm
    Altaru: Why do you put the words `elected representatives` in quotes? Did you skip your civics classes as well as your English classes? The U.S., as the world`s third largest democracy, DOES have elected representatives. I know I`m too much of a dumbass for you to take my word for it, but you could look at our constitution (which has been amended 27 times, and as recently as twenty years ago) -- it does lay out the processes by which our democracy operates.

    And no amount of quotes will make any of your claims correct.
  96. Profile photo of Omphaloskept
    Omphaloskept Male 40-49
    181 posts
    March 24, 2011 at 7:00 am
    Oh, and Madest: Don`t fall for the conservative newspeak: democracies and republics don`t overlap, a republic is a form of democracy. That`s why not all democracies are republics, but all republics are democracies in the same way that though not all vegetables are carrots, all carrots are vegetables.
  97. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    March 24, 2011 at 11:20 am
    Omphaloskept: Then please explain the `democratic republic` of North Korea.

    Not all of anything is always all of something else.
  98. Profile photo of Omphaloskept
    Omphaloskept Male 40-49
    181 posts
    March 24, 2011 at 3:10 pm
    Who can explain North Korea? It was named by Kim Il Sun who was batpoo crazy. Not only that, but all those communist dictatorships have misleading, hyperbolic names.

    But I`d ask you how, if I`m wrong, you would explain the dictionary?

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