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Date: 02/15/11 11:06 AM

217 Responses to South Dakota Moves To Legalize Murder…

  1. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:07 am
    Link: South Dakota Moves To Legalize Murder... - of abortion providers. Is this what ``pro life`` means?
  2. Profile photo of tn11
    tn11 Male 18-29
    1587 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:10 am
    wait what?

    *music in background

    its the end of the world as we know it, its the end....
  3. Profile photo of Dragonluna
    Dragonluna Female 13-17
    158 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:13 am
    Dear South Dakota.
    F**k you.
    Signed, World.
  4. Profile photo of CCMA_19
    CCMA_19 Female 18-29
    311 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:15 am
    THAT`S IT!!! I`m moving to Europe!
  5. Profile photo of ieatbunnies
    ieatbunnies Male 30-39
    880 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:16 am
    Holy drating poo batman.

    Can we pass a bill allowing justifiable homicide to be acceptable on anyone who finds this bills reasonable?
  6. Profile photo of meepmaker
    meepmaker Male 30-39
    6694 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:17 am
    What is wrong with these people ?
  7. Profile photo of realblender
    realblender Male 18-29
    536 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:19 am
    Wow... just wow.
  8. Profile photo of gorgack2000
    gorgack2000 Male 13-17
    4682 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:28 am

  9. Profile photo of Hiromi
    Hiromi Female 18-29
    1149 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:32 am
    Pro Life: When fetuses become more important than full grown women.
  10. Profile photo of gorgack2000
    gorgack2000 Male 13-17
    4682 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:33 am
    ""They erect a legal barrier, another, and another," says Nash. "At what point do women say, `I can`t climb that mountain`? This is where we`re getting to.""

    I think that`s the idea :l
  11. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:36 am
    I`m so sorry for all of the normal folks in the U.S. that have to carry the stigma that this sort of stuff place on you and your country.
  12. Profile photo of Lblaxplaya20
    Lblaxplaya20 Male 18-29
    422 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:44 am
    @Hiromi

    Pro Choice: When a stuck up women cares too much about herself to respect the sacredness of human life.
  13. Profile photo of mystreT
    mystreT Male 30-39
    332 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:47 am
    This is incredible.
  14. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:48 am
    "Pro Choice: When a stuck up women cares too much about herself to respect the sacredness of human life."

    Leave it to a man, someone who will never experience an unwanted pregnancy, to make such an ignorant blanket statement.
  15. Profile photo of Norris
    Norris Male 18-29
    1011 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:51 am
    @zombunny
    Dont have sex, cant get pregnant...unless your biblical lol...

    Personally I think abortion should be legal and fine, just if they decide to do it, aside from rape, incest, etc..the ovaries should be removed as well.

    Murder your first baby, dont get another :P
  16. Profile photo of a1butcher
    a1butcher Male 40-49
    4809 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:53 am
    LOL .. I just love the Onion news..... whaa ...Oh.
  17. Profile photo of Lblaxplaya20
    Lblaxplaya20 Male 18-29
    422 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:54 am
    @Zombunny

    There are numerous ways for women to take care of unwanted pregnancies without the use of abortion. There`s a program in the U.S. called Safe Babies, Safe Place, Safe Haven that allows mothers who are unable to raise a child to leave the infant at a hospital where it is a guaranteed a safe shelter.
    Another option would be to not have unprotected sex if you can`t face the consequences.
  18. Profile photo of skyblue_15
    skyblue_15 Female 18-29
    193 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:55 am
    do people really act like such crazy rednecks?
  19. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:56 am
    @Norris,

    So people who don`t want to get pregnant just shouldn`t have sexual relationships?
  20. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:57 am
    It`s like fu<king for virginity.
  21. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:00 pm
    Zom, do you have ANY children, unwanted or not?
  22. Profile photo of Solvent
    Solvent Male 18-29
    2842 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:00 pm
    This is how it all starts...
  23. Profile photo of Volsunga
    Volsunga Male 18-29
    1548 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:00 pm
    They have to get Jesus off of death row somehow.
  24. Profile photo of xiquiripat
    xiquiripat Male 18-29
    2422 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:01 pm
    I can`t believe this hick state is my neighbor.
  25. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:02 pm
    @ Lblaxplaya20:

    not have unprotected sex if you can`t face the consequences, eh? so does that mean victims of rape and incest are responsible for their pregnancies because they spread their legs? do they have to face the consequences of their rapists` actions? is it fair to them to carry around this child for 9 months because they were raped? be reminded every single day of that traumatic event?

    think before you speak.
  26. Profile photo of VirtualParty
    VirtualParty Male 18-29
    787 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:02 pm
    Really?
  27. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:03 pm
    @DJDoubleb,

    Funny you should ask. Actually, I have a seven year old daughter who was the result of an unplanned pregnancy when I was 15 years old. I love her to death and I chose to keep her, but I`m glad I had a choice.
  28. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:04 pm
    PsychGeek you are using the exception not the rule. I think Lblax means only when abortion is being used as reactive birth control.
  29. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:04 pm
    @ Norris:

    that is perhaps the STUPIDEST thing i have EVER heard someone say on this site.

    by following your twisted logic, men who abandon one child should have their testicles cut off. good one, Einstein.
  30. Profile photo of Reganom
    Reganom Male 18-29
    505 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:06 pm
    Lblaxplaya20:

    It`s so awesome that protected sex prevents all pregnancy...Oh sorry, what was that? Oh it`s not perfect...well wow.

    Oh and with regards to safe haven, what if the mother doesn`t want to be pregnant with the rapists child?
  31. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:07 pm
    What gets me is do these wackos that bomb these clinics realize planned parenthood clinics also provide other things besides abortion like birth control and STD testing/treatments.
  32. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:07 pm
    @ DJ:

    then he should have made that clear before he made such a blanket statement regarding unprotected sexual encounters.
  33. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:07 pm
    I am the father of a 7 year old girl as well. I didn`t want her either. I now am happily expecting my 5th child.

    I accepted that the child was my responsibility because I did not take precautions and now I am so glad I did not. There is no reason for there to be a need for a choice. You can choose before hand.

    I do not agree with this law, but I could not look my maker in the eye knowing I destroyed a life.
  34. Profile photo of Norris
    Norris Male 18-29
    1011 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:08 pm
    @Phych
    Yes, that sounds like a reasonable punishment for men who abandon their children.

  35. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:09 pm
    Psych:

    "by following your twisted logic, men who abandon one child should have their testicles cut off. good one, Einstein."

    I like it... It should be done that way.
  36. Profile photo of xiquiripat
    xiquiripat Male 18-29
    2422 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:12 pm
    A fetus is merely a mish-mash of genetic goo. A doctor is a fully sentient being with hopes, fears, and loves and a knowledge of what it actually means to be alive. It`s a pretty clear choice for me.
  37. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:13 pm
    a mish mash of genetic goo?

    are you mentally handicapped?

  38. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:13 pm
    @ Norris:

    and removing the ovaries of a woman who has an abortion is also just? you really are twisted if you believe that logic. thank god my life and future isn`t in your hands.
  39. Profile photo of APJ311
    APJ311 Male 13-17
    749 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:13 pm
    South Dakota is screwed up.
  40. Profile photo of Lblaxplaya20
    Lblaxplaya20 Male 18-29
    422 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:14 pm
    @Psychgeek and Reganom

    Do you realize that abortions due to rape and incest make up less than 1% of all abortions? I agree the situation gets complicated in those cases, those VERY RARE cases, but even then the woman still has choices other than abortion.

  41. Profile photo of kj36
    kj36 Female 18-29
    240 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:14 pm
    I think that there is a very good chance that if I was a man, I would be pro-life.
    But as a woman I could not be more pro-choice. I believe you really do have to be a woman to understand, and make a clear decision on which you support
  42. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:14 pm
    @ DJ:

    nope, I agree. though it depends on when during fetal development he`s talking about. at first conception, a fetus is not even a fetus. it`s a bundle of cells, still in the process of initial replication. it`s called a "zygote" at this stage. whether or not you call that bundle of cells "life" is up to you.
  43. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:15 pm
    Here`s some suggested reading for those of you who oppose abortion rights.

    However, I`d like to take this discussion in a different direction for a moment, if I may. Whether you support choice or not, do you think that it is the proper place of a relative (mother, father, sibling, etc) or sexual partner (the father of the fetus/baby/whatever) to take the life of a doctor providing an abortion for a woman who has made that choice? Should they be able to intervene and decide whether or not she is allowed to abort her pregnancy, if she has made a decision they disagree with?
  44. Profile photo of Lblaxplaya20
    Lblaxplaya20 Male 18-29
    422 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:15 pm
    @Psychgeek

    What religon, if any, do you belong to? Just curious
  45. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:16 pm
    @ Lblax:

    try saying that when your daughter comes home traumatized from being raped. if a pregnancy occurs from that, no matter how small the chances, would you force her to carry it for 9 months?
  46. Profile photo of Reganom
    Reganom Male 18-29
    505 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:16 pm
    Lblaxplaya20:

    Something is rare then it has no place in the discussion?


  47. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:18 pm
    @ Lblax: I am a Methodist, a Christian. I am also a woman who believes that all women have the right to choose.

    You can never, EVER understand what a woman goes through emotionally, physically, and spiritually when she`s pregnant. that`s not meant to be a slam against men, it`s just a fact.

    so before you make comments on how abortion should be illegal, think about this: you will never know what it`s like to give birth to a child, and you`ll never know what it`s like to lose that life to abortion, no matter the reason.
  48. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:18 pm
    In my mind it is not so much, "what it is" as much as "what it will be" that is the question.

    If it is not yet a life, then why abort it? It`s just a bundle of cells... nothing to be afraid of, right?
  49. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:20 pm
    @ DJ:

    your point makes absolutely no sense.......
  50. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:20 pm
    Psych.. do not kid yourself into think that abortion is OK with God. If you are going to claim Christianity on this subject, at least claim you are a Christian standing opposed to God`s word on the subject of abortion. This one is very clear in the bible, if you believe it to be God`s word.
  51. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36875 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:22 pm
    zombunny - "Leave it to a man, someone who will never experience an unwanted pregnancy, to make such an ignorant blanket statement."

    Men are involved. It`s their children being killed.
    One could argue it`s his duty as a father to protect the child.
    Of course, it`s also the mother`s job...wanted or not.

  52. Profile photo of Lblaxplaya20
    Lblaxplaya20 Male 18-29
    422 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:22 pm
    @Psychgeek and Reganom

    Didn`t I just say that cases involving rape and incest become complicated, but there are still other choices? At no point did I say that it had no place in the discussion. In fact, I opened the topic up for discussion.

    Also, Psychgeek, I`m not trying to preach to the choir here, but abortion is looked at as a very serious sin in the Christian faith. Now I`m not calling you a sinner, just letting you know.
  53. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:23 pm
    The point I was making is in reference to "It is OK to abort, it has no rights because it is not life".

    It is not life but it will be. unless you get in the way and destroy it, it will be.

  54. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:23 pm
    @ DJ: i KNEW i shouldn`t have told you my religion, because now you`re going to run the tired, old "God hates abortion" argument that everyone with no valid scientific argument makes.

    stop thinking you can speak for God, you have no idea what he really thinks about abortion. anything in the bible can be misinterpreted to support your position, and frankly it has no place in a scientific argument regarding abortion. you want to talk about religion? talk about it with someone else, i`m not making any further comments about it.
  55. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:23 pm
    Gerry... High Five!
  56. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:25 pm
    @ Lblax:

    i said I`m a Christian, but i didn`t say i`m a strong one. if i were raped and got pregnant as a result, damn right i`d have an abortion. i dont` give a flying fig what YOUR opinion of God`s thoughts on abortion are. i dont` count the bible as a valid source because it`s not. so hush about the religion aspect, it`s been beaten to death and i`m sick of it.
  57. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:26 pm
    @ Gerry:

    of course you`ll say that, you wouldn`t ever have to experience the types of things women go through when they`re pregnant. you have a choice in the matter, but not as much as the mother--the fetus is in HER stomach, not the man`s. sorry.
  58. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36875 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:26 pm
    abortion "rights" is mostly smoke screen which prevent people from focusing on the only real issue.
    Is it a baby or is it just superfluous tissue?

    If it`s just a growth then no problem removing it.
    If it`s a child obviously you can`t kill it for convenience.

    Who knows for sure? Science or theologeans?
    No one can conclusively say when it becomes a person.

    Where children are concerned,
    I err on the side of caution.

    Let the baby live.
  59. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:27 pm
    "stop thinking you can speak for God, you have no idea what he really thinks about abortion. "

    Yes I do.. He says it very clearly. Do you want me to quote the HUNDREDS of scripture where he speaks of his love of children, he blessing of the womb, or his blessing of man through children, his cursing of people by closing their womb? To say anything other is ignoring the bible. Do you always ignore the parts you don`t agree with?
  60. Profile photo of Reganom
    Reganom Male 18-29
    505 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:28 pm
    "but abortion is looked at as a very serious sin in the Christian faith"

    As is homosexuality, and murder...If you consider this is about the murder of the abortionists then religion doesn`t really have a reason to be in this discussion.
  61. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:28 pm
    no, but apparently you`re ignoring the whole idea of "don`t judge others, leave that up to God". isn`t that also something Jesus preached? don`t judge women who have abortions, you have no place in the matter.
  62. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36875 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:28 pm
    PsychGeek

    Heterosexual sex is designed to make babies.
    If you want to play at being adults then face up
    to the concequences.

    If you don`t want to risk making a baby but want an orgasm you should go lesbian.
  63. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:28 pm
    AMEN, Reganom!!! :D :D
  64. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:28 pm
    Psy.. why do you keep throwing rape out there.. I don`t think any of us are arguing against it in that situation...
  65. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:30 pm
    @ Gerry:

    your argument is invalid and frankly ridiculous on so many levels. first of all, the whole "go lesbian" thing is absurd and doesn`t have a place in this conversation. secondly, you`re forgetting about the SEMEN that was used to create this baby.

    you want to play at being adults, then realize the father helped to create the life that`s now in question. stop putting the blame JUST on the mother. she has more of a say in what happens, but she didn`t make the kid on her own.
  66. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:30 pm
    I am not judging you. Where have I said that you were a bad person, that you are less than I, or made any derogatory statement about you or any punishment you might or should receive.. I just said your theology is off.
  67. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36875 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:31 pm
    "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her body."

    Bull poo.

    She cannot sell a kidney.
    She cannot ingest or smoke banned chemicals.
    She cannot rent her body to men for sexual favors.

    No one, neither man nor woman, has unlimited rights, not even to their own body.
    That arguement is a smoke screen.
    {see earlier post on smoke screens}
  68. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:31 pm
    So men don`t have a choice in the matter, but they should get the blame when an abortion happens? you can`t have it both ways....
  69. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:32 pm
    @ DJ:

    he threw faith into the equation and used that smoke screen to say "abortion is a sin" as a blanket statement, meaning ALL abortion. all i said was that if i was raped, i`d get an abortion.
  70. Profile photo of Reganom
    Reganom Male 18-29
    505 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:32 pm
    "I just said your theology is off. "

    To you...Belief is personal, find me the christians who follow the belief of not wearing clothes of mixed cloth. You can believe in the biblical God without taking the bible as fact.
  71. Profile photo of Lblaxplaya20
    Lblaxplaya20 Male 18-29
    422 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:32 pm
    @Psychgeek

    I clearly said that I wasn`t calling you a sinner. That`s a little outside my jurisdiction, but I was just trying to inform you on the Church`s view of abortion in case you did not know. Also, I`m pretty sure the Bible is a valid source of God`s thoughts seeing as your religion is based off of it.
  72. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:32 pm
    what the? lied to by the title
  73. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:33 pm
    @ DJ:

    READ what i say. men DO have a choice in the matter, but ultimately the decision falls to the woman. however, he needs to take responsibility for his part in the conception and not label her as a horrible person and huge sinner for having an abortion.
  74. Profile photo of PsychGeek
    PsychGeek Female 18-29
    1798 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:33 pm
    the Bible is NOT valid. i don`t read it, i don`t agree with it, i don`t give a poo about it. it was written by MAN, not god.
  75. Profile photo of Capahar
    Capahar Female 18-29
    23 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:36 pm
    I completely agree with Psych, I think it`s a hard thing for men to understand and I don`t think religion should be dragged into the debate either. I know that I couldn`t possibly afford to care for a baby at this stage in my life and I`d rather bring a baby into the world when I have a stable job and home to bring it up in. This doesn`t mean to say that deciding to get an abortion wouldn`t be the hardest choice I`d ever have to make - I don`t believe it`s a throwaway decision for the majority of women. But for me it wouldn`t be based on lofty deliberations over `sin` and right and wrong but for the sheer practical reason that I`d rather have a baby when I can give it the best life possible.
  76. Profile photo of torisen
    torisen Male 30-39
    40 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:37 pm
    I think it`s awesome because then the doctor (or someone on THEIR behalf) can claim self-defense and kill the killers. Round and round we go, wheeee!

    What they`re doing is legalizing an infinite loop!
  77. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36875 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:37 pm
    PsychGeek - " you`re forgetting about the SEMEN that was used to create this baby. "

    I am not forgetting him. I placed him responsible to protect the child.

    YOU are pushing him out of the picture
    "the fetus is in HER stomach, not the man`s."
    With that statement you seem to imply that a man should not have any say so or opinion about this.

    well, we do.

    And the lesbian thing was sarcasm. Next time I`ll put brackets around it.
  78. Profile photo of Lblaxplaya20
    Lblaxplaya20 Male 18-29
    422 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:38 pm
    @Pychgeek
    "the Bible is NOT valid. i don`t read it, i don`t agree with it, i don`t give a poo about it. it was written by MAN, not god."

    Then you are not a Methodist. Plain and simple. Methodists primary source for Christian doctrine is the Bible. No Bible, No Methodist.

    @Reganom
    "but abortion is looked at as a very serious sin in the Christian faith"

    As is homosexuality, and murder...If you consider this is about the murder of the abortionists then religion doesn`t really have a reason to be in this discussion."

    Stop taking what I say out of context. At no point did I say that right to kill doctors who perform abortions is justified. Please, please, pay more attention to detail.
  79. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:39 pm
    "find me the christians who follow the belief of not wearing clothes of mixed cloth."

    It is true that Deuteronomy 22:11 specifies the prohibition of wearing clothing made of linen and wool woven together, because the interweaving of linen and wool was used in fabrics used to construct the tabernacle itself as well as in the manufatcure of the priests graments. Exodus 26:1 specifies that both types of spun tread were to be used for the tent cloths of the tabernacle.

    The Encyclopaedia Judaica says: The clothing of the priests was notably exempt from the prohibition of sha´atnez . Exodus 28:6, 8, 15 and 39:29 prescribe that various pieces be made of linen and colored wool interwoven. . . . This suggests that the general prohibition was grounded on the taboo character of such a mixture, pertaining exclusively to the realm of the sacred. Read more: What`s the deal with God not allowing people to wear clothes made of two
  80. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:43 pm
    Capahar, please note that I lived most of my life below the poverty line. My parents really struggled at times. But that life.. it was good. I loved my childhood. And even at it`s worst it was better than no life at all.
  81. Profile photo of Swaywithme
    Swaywithme Female 18-29
    3696 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:44 pm
    ......*FACEINTOWALL*
  82. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:45 pm
    Does anyone want to respond to the question I posted earlier or are we ignoring that? I`d be interested in hearing some opinions.
  83. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36875 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:53 pm
    ZomBunny`s question:
    "do you think that it is the proper place of a relative (mother, father, sibling, etc) or sexual partner (the father of the fetus/baby/whatever) to take the life of a doctor providing an abortion for a woman who has made that choice? Should they be able to intervene and decide whether or not she is allowed to abort her pregnancy, if she has made a decision they disagree with? "

    If a man is about to kill a pregnant woman, does the father/brother/husband have an obligation to defend her AND the child?

    I think yes, he does.

    In the case of abortion, someone is attempting to kill a man`s child. The same obligation is there.

    Me personally, I would hope that I never am stupid enough to make a child with someone who has so little morality.

  84. Profile photo of Pheeshy5
    Pheeshy5 Male 18-29
    1312 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:53 pm
    Are you kidding me? So much I want to say but I`m not even getting into this.
  85. Profile photo of Reganom
    Reganom Male 18-29
    505 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:53 pm
    "Stop taking what I say out of context. At no point did I say that right to kill doctors who perform abortions is justified. Please, please, pay more attention to detail"

    I`m not. I didn`t say that you considered it justified. You bring religion in saying that it is a sin to have an abortion yet this whole post is about the murder of abortionists. That would make religion in this debate irrelevant at best, don`t you think?
  86. Profile photo of Capahar
    Capahar Female 18-29
    23 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:53 pm
    @DJ I don`t doubt that and I am not saying, by any means, that people with no money shouldn`t be allowed to have children! The key word is *choice*. Your parents chose to have you and that worked out well. Good. But you can hardly blame someone who does have that choice for wanting to wait until they are better prepared, mentally and financially, to have a child.
  87. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1610 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:54 pm
    @Zombunny

    Killin` doctors is bad, mmmmkay. You shouldn`t kill doctors.
  88. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:54 pm
    I fully stand with Gerry on this issue. Beside him that is.. not in front..
  89. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36875 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:57 pm
    @DJDoubleb

    got me laughing! THANKS
  90. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:57 pm
    yes I can blame them.. you know the consequences of sex before you do it. There are a TON of ways to avoid pregnancy and most are FREE if you go to the Health Department. There is NO REASON abortion should be viable as birth control. And there is no arguement that is going to make me think it is OK...
  91. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 12:59 pm
    Interesting way to look at it, Gerry. Thanks for responding.

    It`s strange how it`s so easy for people to get worked up and create a long circular debate over black and white issues such as pro choice vs. anti choice, but when it comes to thinking about the subtle, less politically and religiouly charges issues that go along with it such as this, no one seems willing to touch it. Note how quickly this thread turned into a debate over choice, when the article is about something else.
  92. Profile photo of Reganom
    Reganom Male 18-29
    505 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:01 pm
    "There is NO REASON abortion should be viable as birth control"

    It`s not birth control. To me you`re implying that abortion is some quick and easy way of not worrying about pregnancy, which actually disgusts me. The vast majority of woman don`t just pop on down and get an abortion, it`s a traumatic decision and most likely the most difficult one they`ve faced. To try and trivialise what they`ve gone through as "birth control" like slipping on a condom is wrong.
  93. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:01 pm
    Zom.. Sorry to hijack it but I love children so much. It hurts me to see them thrown away, a lot of times over lifestyle...
  94. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:02 pm
    If they are doing it to not have a baby, then that is what it is. Calling it anything else is sugar coating it...
  95. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:04 pm
    Also @Gerry, and anyone else who wants to respond,

    What about the legality of abortion? Abortion is a legal, constitutionally protected act. Should you be able to prevent a woman from exercising her legal right because you disagree with it? Your comparison to the murder of a pregnant woman makes sense to an extent, but murder of a pregnant woman is clearly illegal. Abortion is not.
  96. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36875 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:05 pm
    I`ve gone along with the debate for fun, but in reality I do not advocate killing the doctors.

    Kidnap the women and hold them until after the birth.

    Much better option.
  97. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:07 pm
    Legally? No. But your question seems to imply the legal = right.

    I would go to jail to protect my child. It is the right thing to do.
  98. Profile photo of Reganom
    Reganom Male 18-29
    505 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:07 pm
    "If they are doing it to not have a baby, then that is what it is. Calling it anything else is sugar coating it..."

    Whilst yes birth control includes abortions, but to place abortion (a traumatic choice one which you will never have to be in a position to make) as a similarity to using a condom is foolish, and i think disrespectful to any woman who has has to make that agonising choice.
  99. Profile photo of Capahar
    Capahar Female 18-29
    23 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:08 pm
    Yes there are a ton of ways to avoid pregnancy but, shocker, they`re not all 100% effective. And yes, a fair few people will have got pregnant because they didn`t use contraception but this is hopefully a mistake you only make once. Just to emphasise, and please understand this, I am not promoting abortion as a quick and easy solution that allows people to continuously have sex without protection, get pregnant and abort the fetus - I should imagine that would be incredibly unhealthy at the very least, various moral and religious arguments notwithstanding.

    Yeah fine, if you believe in abstinence then that`s fair enough but I think it`s outdated and unrealistic in this day and age. Better sex education and, as you say, free contraception are much more efficient.
  100. Profile photo of Capahar
    Capahar Female 18-29
    23 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:10 pm
    Reganom put it better than I did :)
  101. Profile photo of duffytoler
    duffytoler Male 40-49
    5195 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:10 pm
    Let`s move Mt. Rushmore to some state that won`t be an insult to it.
  102. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6280 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:11 pm
    Debates about abortion aside: This report is a serious case of irresponsible reporting.

    Notice the author’s use of the disclaimer, ‘could IN THEORY allow…to kill anyone who tried to provide..an abortion”.

    The actually bill: “Homicide is justifiable if committed by any person while resisting any attempt to murder such person, or to harm the unborn child of such person in a manner and to a degree likely to result in the death of the unborn child,..”

    So, the homicide would only be justifiable IF THE MOTHER WERE RESISTING. If the mother has requested an abortion, no one can claim she was resisting.

    Only an irrational person, on EITHER side of the issue, could use this law to come to the conclusion this idiot reporter is trying to foster.
  103. Profile photo of Reganom
    Reganom Male 18-29
    505 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:11 pm
    "I would go to jail to protect my child. It is the right thing to do."

    Yes it is the right thing to do to protect a child. When does a foetus become a child though? For you it`s at conception it seems, but for many its a bundle of cells.
  104. Profile photo of Reganom
    Reganom Male 18-29
    505 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:13 pm
    "IF THE MOTHER WERE RESISTING"

    "or to harm the unborn child of such person"

    Wrong. I have a father, i am his child, i was also HIS unborn child for a while 22 years ago.

  105. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:13 pm
    Reagonom, what should I call it then. Please educate me so I will not offend some poor traumatized woman...

  106. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:13 pm
    So DJ, you would rather spend life in prison and have your child raised by a woman who did not want him/her and possibly is incapable of providing proper care for them, rather than allow her to have an abortion?
  107. Profile photo of Reganom
    Reganom Male 18-29
    505 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:13 pm
    "Reganom put it better than I did :) "

    Of course i did, my profile picture gives me powers beyond belief :P /sarcasm

    Thanks though =]
  108. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:14 pm
    "It is a bundle of cells"

    I would agree with you if it stayed a bundle of cells, but it doesn`t. The only thing that keeps it from being alive is the abortion.
  109. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:15 pm
    No, I would want my parents or sister to raise it.. hell I can`t afford it. :)
  110. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:16 pm
    Honest answer Zom.. Yes, I would rather that happen than my child be dead.
  111. Profile photo of Reganom
    Reganom Male 18-29
    505 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:16 pm
    "Reagonom, what should I call it then. Please educate me so I will not offend some poor traumatized woman... "

    Abortion. Also did you mean for "some poor traumatised woman..." to come across as sarcastic/snarky? If not apologies, if so however...
  112. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:16 pm
    @MeGrendel,

    I think you misunderstand the language of the bill. This means that any parent (mother or father) can resist the abortion, ie: if the mother attempts to have an abortion and the father is opposed, he has the right to murder the doctor to prevent the abortion from happening. Nowhere in the bill does it specifically say that the mother or both parents must be the ones resisting.
  113. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:17 pm
    So DJ, you only care that the child is allowed to live, not that it is allowed to live a happy, healthy life in which it is loved and well cared for?
  114. Profile photo of Reganom
    Reganom Male 18-29
    505 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:18 pm
    "I would agree with you if it stayed a bundle of cells, but it doesn`t. The only thing that keeps it from being alive is the abortion."

    The only thing stopping my semen from becoming more than "my lil` swimmers" is the fact that they don`t find an egg. Doesn`t stop me from finishing in a condom.../tissue

    Potential doesn`t mean that at the time it`s not more. There are many things that can also stop a bundle of cells from going further.
  115. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:18 pm
    There is 0 chance of health and happiness if dead. At least if alive the child has a chance.
  116. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:20 pm
    The difference here is that the bundle of cells are already moving towards that potential. you are actually having to use interrupt nature to stop it.
  117. Profile photo of Reganom
    Reganom Male 18-29
    505 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:21 pm
    "There is 0 chance of health and happiness if dead"

    Also there is no chance of: Beatings, rape, verbal abuse, sexual abuse etc. etc.
  118. Profile photo of TokioKoos
    TokioKoos Female 18-29
    412 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:22 pm
    I knew America was stagnate, I didn`t realise there were actually states going backwards. ><
  119. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:22 pm
    But that is life.. None of us are promised anything. From the day I was born, I had no promises.. But I had a chance.
  120. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:24 pm
    Reganom:

    The "bundle of cells" argument is a specious and wholly emotional argument. If you want to look at it that way, we`re all a bundle of cells. Just bigger or smaller bundles of cells.

    There are more honest arguments in favour of legal abortion.
  121. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:25 pm
    I would not bring a child into this world unless I knew I could do everything in my power to give him or her the life they deserved. I don`t leave that up to chance.
  122. Profile photo of Capahar
    Capahar Female 18-29
    23 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:25 pm
    "The only thing stopping my semen from becoming more than "my lil` swimmers" is the fact that they don`t find an egg. Doesn`t stop me from finishing in a condom.../tissue"

    Exactly! That`s like saying I shouldn`t throw my flour and eggs out because they might become a cake.

    At the end of the day matters of belief cannot be reduced to logic. The point is that you should have the choice to keep the baby if you believe it is the right thing to do and abort it if you believe it is not. If you believe in God then you must acknowledge it is his responsibility to judge people and that individual`s choice to run that risk if they choose. I`m not anti-religion but I don`t believe in its use to decide the fate of others, especially if they don`t share those religious beliefs.

    (By the by I was joking and not comparing a baby to a cake before anyone tells me I`m going to hell. It seems it`s necessary to clarify that round these parts)
  123. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:30 pm
    I would think you idiotic if you threw out a cake after mixing all the ingredients, placing in the cake pan, preheating the oven and starting the cooking process.

    We are not arguing about vasectomies and hysterectomies.
  124. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:32 pm
    but to place abortion (a traumatic choice one which you will never have to be in a position to make) as a similarity to using a condom is foolish, and i think disrespectful to any woman who has has to make that agonising choice.

    Do you not see how you are contradicting yourself?

    If abortion is just getting rid of a meaningless bundle of cells, it couldn`t possibly be a traumatic and agonising choice, can it?

    I know it`s normal for abortion advocates to swap definitions back and forth to suit whatever they want to believe at that instant, to silence dissent and to sway people with irrational arguments, but it isn`t necessary. You can`t really claim the moral high ground when you stoop that low to do it.

    There are places that do lunch break abortions so you don`t have to interrupt your normal working day. Agonising? Traumatic? Obviously not.
  125. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:32 pm
    And let`s not start with throwing out food with the starving in China and all....
  126. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:34 pm
    a traumatic choice one which you will never have to be in a position to make

    There`s a very simple way to resolve that way in which you imply men are better off than women. Make abortion impossible, then women would be equally as free of choices as men are.

    Is that what you really want? Or did you just want to complain irrationally?
  127. Profile photo of Capahar
    Capahar Female 18-29
    23 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:35 pm
    But what if I realised halfway through that I was too hungry to eat the cake! I actually have personal experience of this, I made cookies yesterday and, after eating one, realised I didn`t want them. It was a really difficult decision but I ended up having to throw them away - a decision that will probably live with me forever or until I next want cookies.

    (I don`t understand.. I said I was joking and everything..)
  128. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:35 pm
    @Angilion,

    Trivializing the difficult decision making process a woman goes through when faced with an unwanted pregnancy shows your ignorance of the subject quite clearly.

    And where are these so-called lunch break abortions taking place? You do realize that an abortion can`t be performed in 30 minutes? It required numerous medical consultations, prescription filling, and aftercare, not to mention the procedure itself.
  129. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:37 pm
    Then it is your own fault for baking. you should have known there was going to be a cake coming when you cracked the eggs...
  130. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36875 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:37 pm
    "Abortion is a legal, constitutionally protected act"


    Is it?
    Roe/Wade based it`s logic in the premise that you cannot ban abortions solely for `moral` reasons as morals are a choice, not a natural law. So in theory, you could ban them for other reasons, not just moral.

    What about right to LIFE, liberty, and persuit of happiness?

    Interpretations of the Constitution are as contradictory as the Bible.
  131. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:41 pm
    I think you misunderstand the language of the bill. This means that any parent (mother or father) can resist the abortion, ie: if the mother attempts to have an abortion and the father is opposed, he has the right to murder the doctor to prevent the abortion from happening. Nowhere in the bill does it specifically say that the mother or both parents must be the ones resisting.

    Nowhere in the bill does it say that a father has the right to murder the doctor to prevent an abortion from happening.

    The language of the bill is, according to some people, unclear. I haven`t read it, so I don`t know for sure. I don`t trust media reports that are so clearly promoting a particular interpretation.

    It`s not unusual for laws to be unclear and abused as a result. For example, "anti-terrorism" laws have been used in the UK to monitor when people put their bins out for collection and fine those who did it too early, because the law was unclear.
  132. Profile photo of Reganom
    Reganom Male 18-29
    505 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:43 pm
    "There`s a very simple way to resolve that way in which you imply men are better off than women. Make abortion impossible, then women would be equally as free of choices as men are.

    Is that what you really want? Or did you just want to complain irrationally?"

    It`s irrational for me to assume as a man that i won`t be able to understand how abortion will feel emotionally to a woman? Really? If you feel that i implied men are better off than women then i apologise, that wasn`t my intention.

    However though, i feel, no man can understand what going through an abortion is like for a woman. On the simple basis that at the moment, a mana can`t get pregnant.

  133. Profile photo of Capahar
    Capahar Female 18-29
    23 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:44 pm
    Angilion, the ease with which an abortion can be performed does not in any way reflect how easy the decision is to have one. Surely the argument is simply that the bundle of cells is not yet a baby. Obviously women are aware that the bundle of cells has the potential to become a baby which is why the decision is traumatic.

    DJ: I got caught up in the joy of cooking alright? I cleaned it up in my lunch break and went straight back to work anyways, no point crying over spilt milk now.
  134. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:45 pm
    Trivializing the difficult decision making process a woman goes through when faced with an unwanted pregnancy shows your ignorance of the subject quite clearly.

    You should be talking to Reganom and all the other abortion advocates who refer to it as getting rid of a bundle of cells, i.e. a trivial thing.

    Which I didn`t do.

    You are showing your ignorance of who is making which argument.

    If you are a normal advocate of legalised abortion, you will also be showing your ignorance of honesty because you`ll be using the same arguments as Reganom.

    Either it`s trivial or it isn`t. Make your choice and stop talking bollocks at me for refusing to be dishonest.
  135. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:47 pm
    Angilion, the ease with which an abortion can be performed does not in any way reflect how easy the decision is to have one. Surely the argument is simply that the bundle of cells is not yet a baby. Obviously women are aware that the bundle of cells has the potential to become a baby which is why the decision is traumatic.

    Apart from the fact that (a) it can`t be traumatic if it`s as trivial as most abortion advocates say it is and (b) it very obviously isn`t always traumatic. Newsflash - different women are different! Wow, who would have thought it?

    You`re all just trying to have your cake and eat it, using contradictory arguments on a wholly emotional basis to silence any dissent. I refuse to be that dishonest.
  136. Profile photo of jpfu220
    jpfu220 Male 18-29
    65 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:48 pm
    as a pro-lifer i think this is wrong. i think murder is wrong...period. whether it be a grown man or a fetus...its wrong everywhere. silly south dakota....
  137. Profile photo of Reganom
    Reganom Male 18-29
    505 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:48 pm
    "You should be talking to Reganom and all the other abortion advocates who refer to it as getting rid of a bundle of cells, i.e. a trivial thing. "

    Considering it is only my view on what a foetus is to me at an early stage, and that everyone has their own personal opinion as to when a foetus goes from being a few cells to a child.

    That is only my opinion on a small stage in the pregnancy, the stage that i agree with pro choice.
  138. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:49 pm
    @Angilion, I never said it was just a bundle of cells that is easy to throw away. I don`t lump every anti choice person in with the rest I`ve already heard from, so I`d appreciate if you extended the same courtesy to me. I`m not talking about what Reaganom or anyone else said. I addressed you directly. The quote I was responding to was
    "There are places that do lunch break abortions so you don`t have to interrupt your normal working day. Agonising? Traumatic? Obviously not."
  139. Profile photo of skruffer2
    skruffer2 Male 18-29
    58 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:52 pm
    @Gerry1of1
    "What about right to LIFE, liberty, and persuit of happiness? "
    Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is written in the Declaration of Independence not the constitution. The right not to be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law would be the constitutional basis you were looking for.
  140. Profile photo of Reignblazer
    Reignblazer Male 18-29
    2334 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:52 pm
    I like tits and basketball.
  141. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:53 pm
    And as Capahar pointed out, the fact that an abortion may be simple to perform does not mean that it`s an easy decision to make. A pregnant woman can also have an OB/GYN appointment on her lunch break. Does that make her decision to have a child a trivial, meaningless one?
  142. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:54 pm
    @Reignblazer, I like tits too. Not basketball though.
  143. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:55 pm
    Abortion is legal in America. That`s why SD is attempting this nonsense. They have more hope of seceding than legalizing murder. South Dakota is the petulant child in the playground that doesn`t like the rules of the game so they pop the ball.
  144. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6280 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:57 pm
    Okay, for those who have not bothered to read the bill.

    This is the bill (presented in two parts). It is just to ammend (add) the capitalized lines to two existing S.D. sections.

    For an act entitled, An Act to expand the definition of justifiable homicide to provide for the protection of certain unborn children.
    Be it encacted by the legislature of the State of South Dakota:
    Section 1. That § 22-16-34 be amended to read as follows:
    22-16-34. Homicide is justifiable if committed by any person while resisting any attempt to murder such person, OR TO HARM THE UNBORN CHILD OF SUCH PERSON IN A MANNER AND TO A DEGREE LIKELY TO RESULT IN THE DEATH OF THE UNBORN CHILD, or to commit any felony upon him or her, or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person is.
  145. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6280 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 1:57 pm
    Part II:

    Section 2. That § 22-16-35 be amended to read as follows:
    22-16-35. Homicide is justifiable if committed by any person in the lawful defense of such person, or of his or her husband, wife, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant, OR THE UNBORN CHILD OF ANY SUCH ENUMERATED PERSON, if there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to commit a felony, or to do some great personal injury, and imminent danger of such design being accomplished.
  146. Profile photo of Capahar
    Capahar Female 18-29
    23 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:00 pm
    Angilion, I don`t think any pro-choice advocate is claiming that having an abortion is a trivial decision though? Of course it`s not trivial, you`re making the choice between bringing a child into the world or not. It`s just about giving people the right to make that choice, hopefully based on the right reasons. (Some may choose to use abortion frequently while I personally don`t think it`s a decision to be taken lightly. But to quote zombunny, don`t lump us all in together.)
    The `bundle of cells` argument simply refers to the fact that aborting a fetus might not be regarded in the same light as taking a human life as it could be considered to not yet be a fully formed human. As reganon said: even that opinion comes down to belief as we can never know the conscious state of a fetus etc - I just happen to agree with it.
  147. Profile photo of zombunny
    zombunny Female 18-29
    2525 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:01 pm
    MeGrendel, I have read it and I still stand by what I said. This bill is designed to allow for the murder of abortion providers. If you can`t read between the lines and realize that, that`s too bad. Your age suggests that you should know better than to be so naive.
  148. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:02 pm
    If the bill passes, it could in theory allow a woman`s father, mother, son, daughter, or husband to kill anyone who tried to provide that woman an abortion—even if she wanted one.

    Americans are stupid. This "bill" is closer to Sharia law then what you would expect from a normal, developed country. I`m disgusted to live within 150km of such idiocy.
  149. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36875 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:05 pm
    MeGrendel "Okay, for those who have not bothered to read the bill. This is the bill..."

    Please do not confuse the issue with facts.
  150. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:06 pm
    [quote">And where are these so-called lunch break abortions taking place?[/quote">

    Marie Stopes clinics started them about 10 years ago, but no doubt they`re widely available now.

    [quote">You do realize that an abortion can`t be performed in 30 minutes? It required numerous medical consultations, prescription filling, and aftercare, not to mention the procedure itself.[/quote">

    Not in the UK, it doesn`t. You can go in, get an abortion and be walking out again in under an hour. A good team can do at least 4 abortions per hour and that includes moving from one to the next and re-prepping for each one.


    Newspaper report from 1997, shortly after lunchtime abortions became available

    The Independent is a reliable paper, not a gutter press tabloid.
  151. Profile photo of Semirhage666
    Semirhage666 Male 18-29
    18 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:13 pm
    The concept of this law is fu¢king disgusting. Anyone who thinks that a fetus in the first or second trimesters can be considered a person does not have a thorough understanding of fetal development. The third trimester is debatable, but irrelevant since no one performs abortions except when medically necessary during that trimester.
  152. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:14 pm
    Angilion, I don`t think any pro-choice advocate is claiming that having an abortion is a trivial decision though?

    Yes they are, every single time they use a "bundle of cells" type of argument.

    If it`s just a bundle of cells, getting rid of it is as trivial as, for example, blowing your nose.

    If it`s not that trivial, it`s not just a bundle of cells.

    You can`t reasonably have it both ways. Most abortion advocates demand to have it both ways and demand that everyone believes those two mutually contradictory arguments simultaneously, for the emotional impact.

    It`s fundamentally dishonest and manipulative and I refuse to do it.
  153. Profile photo of Semirhage666
    Semirhage666 Male 18-29
    18 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:15 pm
    @Gerry1of1
    "What about right to LIFE, liberty, and persuit of happiness? "

    Rights are for people.
  154. Profile photo of BrimstoneOne
    BrimstoneOne Male 30-39
    2229 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:18 pm
    This like throwing womens rights, whole and total, out with the bath water. What the F, what`s next mandatory church service?

    Who let the lunatics out to run the government?
  155. Profile photo of nubblins
    nubblins Female 18-29
    1743 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:19 pm
    Hm, so what if the kid that is prevented from being aborted grows up to be a doctor that does abortions? Think on that!
  156. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:25 pm
    don`t lump us all in together

    How about extending the same concept to women in general, rather than ordering them to be traumatised when you think they should be?

    Some women find abortion traumatic. Some don`t. Different women are different. At least, I think they are.

    Anyone who believes the usual pro-abortion arguments shouldn`t find it at all traumatic in the slightest - it`s just a bundle of cells, it`s no different to sperm or an unfertilised egg, etc, etc.

    It`s the fundamental dishonesty and emotional manipulation that`s normal for abortion availability advocates that annoys me. Wildly varying definitions to suit whatever works best at a given time, contradicting themselves and demanding that everyone believes the same contradictions...it`s nasty.
  157. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6280 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:27 pm
    zombunny-"If you can`t read between the lines and realize that, that`s too bad."

    Understand one thing. Law is not written to be `read between the lines`. Law is written to be enforced as written. (we have a law that it is illegal to tie your pet alligator to a parking meter..it can not be read to include any other animal or structure).

    Granted, this law is not as clear as it could be (what legaleze is?). But at the same time, this law does not grant Justifiable Homicide status on the killing of any abortion provider (unless, of course, the abortion provider is attempting to murder someone outside of his chosen vocation) . If it did, the reported would not have had to include the disclaimer `IN THEORY". Law is not theory. Law is law.

    `IN THEORY` covers alot of ground. You are a female. `IN THEORY` you could be a prostitute. Best odds says you aren`t..but there`s that `theory` to contend with.
  158. Profile photo of Jasonbobdude
    Jasonbobdude Male 18-29
    1598 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:29 pm
    Ignoring anything about whether or not abortion is okay...

    HOW THE F*** DOES A LAW LIKE THIS GET SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED?
  159. Profile photo of Capahar
    Capahar Female 18-29
    23 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:30 pm
    Angilion you ignored my point so here it is again: The `bundle of cells` argument simply refers to the fact that aborting a fetus might not be regarded in the same light as taking a human life as it could be considered to not yet be a fully formed human. As reganon said: even that opinion comes down to belief.

    While some people might use this argument to show that abortion is trivial, not all of us do. I would simply call on this argument to counteract `abortion is murder` claims. Maybe the best way to solve your point is by differentiating between what is `trivial` and what is `acceptable`. Abortion is acceptable (to some) because the fetus is just a bundle of cells and not yet a human - this is not at all the same as its being trivial.
  160. Profile photo of Capahar
    Capahar Female 18-29
    23 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:32 pm
    Apologies, I didn`t see your reply. I think my second point still stands though.
  161. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:35 pm
    [quote">I like tits and basketball.[/quote">

    I`m not all that much for basketball. I can appreciate the skill involved, but it doesn`t really interest me so I couldn`t say that I like it.

    Tits are pretty and chirp pleasantly, but I`m not much of an ornithologist.

    Tits are colourful

    OK, it`s an obvious joke but it`s old enough to be considered a tradition.
  162. Profile photo of Capahar
    Capahar Female 18-29
    23 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:35 pm
    Also with regards to "Anyone who believes the usual pro-abortion arguments shouldn`t find it at all traumatic in the slightest - it`s just a bundle of cells, it`s no different to sperm or an unfertilised egg, etc, etc."

    This isn`t right at all. I believe these arguments and would have an abortion but I would still find it upsetting because it`s a huge life decision. A part of me would always wonder what would have happened and so on.
  163. Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:38 pm
    As much as I think abortion is terrible, I think the only time it should be legally permissible to kill another in defense of a fetus is if it is your own. Partly because some forms of danger to the fetus are also dangerous to the mother and partly because an imminent threat to the fetus would likely trigger an instinctual protectiveness that might make the mother dangerous. Essentially, I think it would be a sort of temporary insanity, which is often recognized as a valid legal defense.
  164. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:41 pm
    I think my second point still stands though.

    I don`t. The "bundle of cells" refers is clearly meant to trivialise it.

    It`s technically true, but it`s equally true for you, me and everyone else. Strictly speaking, we`re all bundles of cells. So if defining something as a bundle of cells makes killing it not murder, then it is not murder to kill anyone.

    So I think your second point fails and you`re still contradicting yourself for advocacy reasons.
  165. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:45 pm
    This isn`t right at all. I believe these arguments and would have an abortion but I would still find it upsetting because it`s a huge life decision. A part of me would always wonder what would have happened and so on.

    Then you don`t believe your own arguments. How can you be traumatised over a meaningless bundle of cells that`s no different to a sperm or unfertilised egg? You probably lose thousands of eggs every month - why aren`t you equally traumatised about those? If you believe your own arguments, you should be. If you aren`t, then you don`t believe your own arguments. So why should anyone else?
  166. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2345 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:53 pm
    most pro-lifer`s are republicans and most of them support war and the death penalty...

    do I even need to point out the problem here?
  167. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:55 pm
    Partly because some forms of danger to the fetus are also dangerous to the mother

    All of them are, to varying extents, but even if you stick with "some", then that blows your argument that the only person who can legally kill in defence of a foetus is the person pregnant with it. Someone else could legally kill on the grounds that it was necessary for defence of the person who`s pregnant.

    Say, for example, you`re walking along with a friend/relative/lover who`s pregnant and some nutjob with a knife and a warped mind is going to stab her in the guts with it to kill the foetus. You`re yards away (getting something from the boot of your car, whatever) and you probably couldn`t take the attacker hand to hand anyway. But you can shoot them. You do so and kill them. Reasonable force? I think so.
  168. Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 2:58 pm
    I think it`s a little silly that people can`t agree on a fetus being a life. It is a life, it is simply parasitic at that stage. The question should be whether it is a human life. I am inclined to say that a fetus is not yet fully human, which is why I think that it is acceptable in certain cases to have an abortion. Where it is dangerous to the mother, where the child is likely to have debilitating birth defects, or where it is a product of rape, I think it is permissible to have an abortion. In any other case, it is an unjustifiable destruction of a life. I don`t think that any life, human or not, should be destroyed without good cause.
  169. Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 3:00 pm
    @Angillon: I failed to account for defense of another, but I believe that is a legally sound defense of murder, so I agree that it would be justifiable, if it is done to prevent harm to the mother. If it is done to a doctor at an abortion clinic, however, there is little danger to the mother and the life of the doctor is worth more than the life of the fetus. I believe that rational entities are worth more than non-rational entities, though I don`t think that non-rational entities should be killed frivolously.
  170. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 3:05 pm
    HOW THE F*** DOES A LAW LIKE THIS GET SERIOUSLY CONSIDERED?

    Because the actual law (as opposed to some reports of it) is about clarifying the right to use force to defend others.

    A hypothetical example:

    Your mother is pregant and you`re walking with her and someone attacks her with the express intention of kicking her repeatedly in the guts to induce a miscarriage. That wouldn`t kill her, so her life is not in danger. Under existing law, you are on uncertain legal ground if you killed the attacker because the existing law on justifiable homicide talks about defending people`s lives. The proposed change to the law would extend it to cover defence in a scenario like this.

    The first problem is that the law, like many laws, is unclear in its meaning and could be abused as a result. The second problem is that is implies a possible legal precedent for defining a foetus as a person.
  171. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 3:10 pm
    I start from the same basis as green batman, but my conclusions are different. I conclude that personal autonomy is the trump card, so I have to agree with abortion on demand at any time up to birth. I really don`t like that, but it`s what follows from my premises so I go with it. Although I`m a bit ambivalent about the idea of a "viable independent life" time limit, i.e. about 24 weeks in.
  172. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6280 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 3:22 pm
    jamie 76-"most pro-lifer`s are republicans and most of them support war and the death penalty...

    do I even need to point out the problem here?"

    There is no problem. They are not comparable nor similar.

    Lets make is simple:

    Pro-lifer`s support the right to a fetus to live, as they believe it to be an innocent little child who deserves the chance at life. These beliefs are in no way related to, nor comparable with, beliefs of war and capital punishment.

    People who support wars do so because they believe their cause/country is worth fighting for. These beliefs are in no way related to, nor comparable with, of a fetus or the death penalty.

    People who support the death penalty because they believe some people have forfeited their right to life through violent and/or treasonous. (plus, there is zero recidivism in the death penalty) These beliefs are in no way related to, nor comparable with, beliefs on abortion or war.
  173. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33155 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 3:37 pm
    "If you look at the code, these codes are dealing with illegal acts. Now, abortion is a legal act. So this has got nothing to do with abortion."

    It`s right there in the article people! Obviously the OP didn`t bother to ACTAULLY READ what was submitted...
  174. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36875 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 3:39 pm
    jamie 76- "most pro-lifer`s are republicans and most of them support war and the death penalty..."

    I`m Pro-life and I do not support the death penalty.
    I am repubican and I Do support gay marriage.
    As for war, it depends on the war. Give me a cause I back and yes, I would support it.

    Not sure how you can mix all those topics together, but just to let you know, some people think and make up their own minds instead of following party lines or letting sound bites on TV make up thier minds for them.
  175. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33155 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 3:41 pm
    most pro-lifer`s are republicans and most of them support war and the death penalty...
    do I even need to point out the problem here?

    Yes @jamie76 you DO!
    While you`re at it: Most pro-abortionists oppose the death penalty, what`s up with THAT eh?

    This is the most useless arguement in the abortionist`s handbook, yet they continue to flog that dead horse. Sad really.
  176. Profile photo of fianzo
    fianzo Male 18-29
    72 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 3:44 pm
    Gerry, as much as i disagree with a lot of what your saying the whole "my views are my own" raised my respect for you no end :) i think a lot of people disagree with everything the other side says for the sake of it, good to see a reasoned person on the boards :)
  177. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36875 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 4:17 pm
    Everyone will get a turn! Let`s not shove! Be Patient!

    Who`s next?



  178. Profile photo of Angelmassb
    Angelmassb Male 18-29
    15511 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 4:27 pm
    Its so easy for us to discuss about what is right and wrong about abortions, we werent aborted after all
  179. Profile photo of DGbME
    DGbME Male 40-49
    451 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 5:20 pm
    I guess they will be supporting honor killings too.
  180. Profile photo of JacobTrue13
    JacobTrue13 Male 18-29
    260 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 5:38 pm
    NO. This would only apply if abortion were illegal. It isn`t. I am totally pro-choice, but this scandal is inaccurate.
  181. Profile photo of NoArms5534
    NoArms5534 Male 18-29
    196 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 6:57 pm
    Mother Jones isn`t even close to a non-biased news source. Grain of salt? Try a whole truckload.
  182. Profile photo of SmilinSam
    SmilinSam Female 18-29
    3599 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 7:11 pm
    "ABORTIONS FOR ALL!!"
    -BOOOOOO!!!!
    "ok,... ABORTIONS FOR NONE!!!"
    -BOOOOOOOOO!!!!
    "hmm...ABORTIONS FOR SOME, MINIATURE AMERICAN FLAGS FOR OTHERS!!!!!!!"
    -YAY!!!!!!!!
  183. Profile photo of Lblaxplaya20
    Lblaxplaya20 Male 18-29
    422 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 7:46 pm
    Ok, so after coming back from work, I see that the fire I started has grown 8 pages larger. Hmmm, DOWN WITH ABORTION! UP WITH JESUS!
  184. Profile photo of BluishOrange
    BluishOrange Female 50-59
    87 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 7:58 pm
    Angilion is the most irrational person on here. I suspect he`s a woman.
  185. Profile photo of rammo34
    rammo34 Male 18-29
    1083 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 8:08 pm
    I really don`t give a sh*t what some backwards, insignificant state like South Dakota does.
  186. Profile photo of mandingo3519
    mandingo3519 Male 30-39
    192 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:25 pm
    @ Angilion "The second problem is that is implies a possible legal precedent for defining a foetus as a person." we already have that. I am agenst all abortions myself due to to me its a person at conception, but our laws say it is not and its ok to kill it. However, is it not funny that if a woman, while walking into an abortion clinic, gets shot or hit or whatever and the baby dies, the attacker gets arrested for murder. Just a question i have always had that no one can give me an answer that makes sense. When murder is murder just before killing is not murder???
  187. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:30 pm
    "Tits are pretty and chirp pleasantly, but I`m not much of an ornithologist."

    Nor apparently are the RSPB - one of those tits was a parrotbill.

    However in keeping with the tradition a "pair of great tits":-


  188. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    February 15, 2011 at 11:44 pm
    Hoist by my own petard
  189. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 1:33 am
    Angilion The second problem is that is implies a possible legal precedent for defining a foetus as a person.


    And just what exactly is wrong with that ?

    A fetus is a human life, it may be young and not fully developed but it`s still a human being.

    Science is already developing an artificial womb, The Japanese have already experimented on one with goats. It`s only a matter of time before the `It`s the woman`s body` argument is no longer valid. The sooner we define the start of human life (legally) the less controversy and potential for abuse there will be later.

    I`ve proposed a compromise here several times now, That life begins when the heart starts beating. It`s based on the medical fact that if your heart stops beating you are dead, and I believe it to be a rational and easily verifiable limit.
  190. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 3:58 am
    Crakr - no it`s not. In the early stages a human fetus is almost identical to a fish fetus.. A product of our evolutionary descent.
  191. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 4:01 am
    @CrakrJak

    "That life begins when the heart starts beating."

    You have a good approach, but you`ve picked the wrong organ.

    It`s the brain, not the heart, that`s important.

    Just look at the opposite end of the human life; death. When the brain ceases to function, the person is dead.

    It stands to reason, then, that when the brain starts to function, the person is alive.

    I suggest a modification of your proposal: develop some kind of device/test that can determine whether higher brain function has begun in the foetus, and use that as a basis for whether or not the abortion is allowed.

    Because in my view, before that brain has switched on, it`s no different from turning off the life support for someone whose brain has switched off: you`re killing a body, but not a person; as the person has either yet to arrive, or has already gone.
  192. Profile photo of shappy
    shappy Male 18-29
    757 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 4:14 am
    im seeing some good ideas here, but we all know nothing is going to happen unless you give those ideas to someone who can do something about it.
  193. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 5:16 am
    @shappy

    "im seeing some good ideas here, but we all know nothing is going to happen unless you give those ideas to someone who can do something about it."

    I don`t think anything needs to be done, at least not here.

    According to Wikipedia:

    "In 2004, there were 185,415 abortions in England and Wales. 87% of abortions were performed at 12 weeks or less and 1.6% (or 2,914 abortions) occurred after 20 weeks."

    "The overwhelming majority of abortions (95% in 2004 for England and Wales) were certified under the statutory ground of risk of injury to the mental or physical health of the pregnant woman."

    So the figures suggest that not only are women not aborting for casual reasons (95% aren`t, according to the above), but they`re also not aborting late: only 1.6% after 20 weeks.

    It remains to be seen (ie, we need to ask the scientists), when the foetus`s higher brain functions activate.
  194. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 5:20 am
    Musoko - so you`d argue for abortion up to about 26 weeks. Though you could argue that there is no real "human being" till much later when that higher brain function has absorbed some useful information and a concept of self is developing.

  195. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 6:07 am
    @MattPrince

    "Musoko"

    Why do so many people have a blind spot for spelling my name?

    "so you`d argue for abortion up to about 26 weeks."

    Perhaps, if someone could show me the science demonstrating that that`s when the brain starts to function at a level that suggests consciousness.

    "Though you could argue that there is no real "human being" till much later when that higher brain function has absorbed some useful information and a concept of self is developing."

    That sounds uncannily like the soul discussion in the corporate meeting room in The Meaning Of Life.
  196. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6280 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 6:37 am
    Musuko42-"It stands to reason, then, that when the brain starts to function, the person is alive."

    If we go by that criteria, it really would be legal to kill many adults, includinig the majority of politicians.
  197. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 6:57 am
    @MeGrendel

    "If we go by that criteria, it really would be legal to kill many adults, includinig the majority of politicians."

    I think we can all get behind this idea. :D
  198. Profile photo of Volsunga
    Volsunga Male 18-29
    1548 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 7:34 am
    The human brain does not function at a capacity that suggests consciousness or self-awareness until several months AFTER birth (the mirror test is a good rule of thumb). However this fact does not justify infanticide because the child is not physically dependent on the mother and can be cared for by anybody. Abortion, however, is justified because a woman should not be forced to maintain that physical dependency that cannot be taken by another.
    Even if you can`t give up things on the moral aspect, you can`t ignore the legal aspect as well. Keeping abortion rights legal makes it straightforward for women with situations in which most people agree that abortion is permissible (e.g. rape or health risk to mother). If abortions are made illegal, even with exceptions made for special cases, those special cases will have to go through a great deal of red tape and possibly risk their lives.
  199. Profile photo of furryblob
    furryblob Male 18-29
    574 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 8:17 am
    Rightwingers at it again.
  200. Profile photo of revlcal
    revlcal Male 30-39
    25 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 8:36 am
    I am a South Dakotan and I do not approve of this. We`ve taken to the booths about abortion repeatedly, and each time it is kept legal. The `representatives` who try to shoehorn morality into the backdoor of an amendment are flagrantly thumbing their noses at the democratic process and showing contempt for the will of the people.

    Drat this poo, I`m moving to Arizona. They seem more reasonable there.
  201. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 8:42 am
    @ revlcal, You should play their game. How about starting a proposition where the citizens of SD get to murder their representatives that continuously waste taxpayer money on this nonsense?

    @CJ, You show a depth of ignorance unmatched when you say stupid crap like: A fetus is a human life, it may be young and not fully developed but it`s still a human being.

    An egg is not a chicken.
  202. Profile photo of KPres
    KPres Male 30-39
    309 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 9:11 am
    This has nothing to do with abortion. The bill says it would be considered "justifiable homicide" to kill somebody, who, for instance, is trying to stab a pregnant woman in the stomach to kill the baby.

    Typical nonsense from a tabloid like Mother Jones, though.
  203. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36875 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 9:39 am
    An egg is not a chicken.

    It`s not? Then why is it called a `Chicken Egg` ?
  204. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 10:07 am
    You may call it a "chicken egg" Gerry, but most modern english speaking humans simply say "egg". Unless they`re in a store that sells multiple egg types where the descriptor would come into play. A fetus is not human until it breathes, eats and poos like a human.
  205. Profile photo of Sigon
    Sigon Male 18-29
    129 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 10:52 am
    As a Pro-Lifer, I find it disturbing that "radical" pro-lifers would resort to Murder of others to promote their views...Isn`t that what the whole point is? There is no such thing as "Justified Homocide" unless it is in self defense or the defense of another...

    Personally I like the Law they are looking to pass in Ohio where if a Heatbeat is detected then the abortion would be illegal. There is no way a Pro-Choice person can disregard a fetus as a person if there is a heart beat...none that is rational anyways
  206. Profile photo of Sigon
    Sigon Male 18-29
    129 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 10:54 am
    @madest ok, then by your definition, anyone who needs to use a cathader to deficate is not human, anyone on life support that recieve nutients intraveiniously is no longer human...Anyone in an Iron Lung....not human

    Please think before you post...
  207. Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 10:57 am
    Babies do not gain episodic memories until about two years of age. That means that they do not retain memories of their personal experiences, though they may retain memories of facts and interpretations of the world. I think that episodic memory is important in rational self-awareness, which is what I consider to be the threshold for determining whether something is human (though that definition may have to change if we ever encounter rational extraterrestrial life). This is why I do not consider fetuses to be human life, but simply life. If you object to my particular use of the term `human`, I`ll put it another way: I believe that rational entities are more worthy of consideration than non-rational entities. Humans above a certain age are rational entities, those below a certain age are non-rational entities. I do not believe that non-rational entities should be killed simply as a matter of convenience, but I believe that the life of a rational entity should be valued more highly.
  208. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 11:34 am
    OK Sigon, I can tell by your spelling we`re not in the same intellectual league. Not trying to put myself on a pedestal just explaining it`s difficult for me as a living, breathing, English speaking human to have an intelligent conversation with someone who can`t spell simple words. Typos are one thing but you can`t spell "catheter, defecate, intravenous" or even "receive". How can I have an intelligent conversation with someone who completely ignores spell check?
    Many of our societal problems can be blamed on unintelligent people having the right to vote.
  209. Profile photo of fivezones
    fivezones Male 40-49
    1021 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 11:36 am
    Hello retard who posted this.

    It is the same law already in 25 states. It applies to self-defense if a woman gets murdered you can still defend her fetus.

    What a steaming pile of drat this post was.
  210. Profile photo of LastJuggalo
    LastJuggalo Female 18-29
    212 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 12:35 pm
    I don`t think this will pass, but if it does, I`m jumping the border to Canada.
  211. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6280 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 1:20 pm
    LastJuggalo-"I don`t think this will pass, but if it does, I`m jumping the border to Canada."

    You DO realize that South Dakota does not share a border with Canada, right? And that this change in the law would only be in effect in South Dakota, right? (of course, over half of the other states have similar laws..so there`s a very good chance you are already under such a law).
  212. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 2:22 pm
    I`ve proposed a compromise here several times now, That life begins when the heart starts beating. It`s based on the medical fact that if your heart stops beating you are dead, and I believe it to be a rational and easily verifiable limit.

    That would put the timing at 4-5 weeks after conception.

    Are you advocating that abortion be outlawed at that point?

    You`re shifting from "person" to "life". Is that a deliberate change of definition or are you just being sloppy?
  213. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 2:24 pm
    It`s based on the medical fact that if your heart stops beating you are dead

    Your knowledge of medicine is at least a couple of centuries out of date.
  214. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 2:30 pm
    "The overwhelming majority of abortions (95% in 2004 for England and Wales) were certified under the statutory ground of risk of injury to the mental or physical health of the pregnant woman."

    So the figures suggest that not only are women not aborting for casual reasons (95% aren`t, according to the above)

    Absolutely wrong, though your conclusion is understandable because you don`t know UK law.

    Note the word "statutory". When abortion was first legalised in the UK, it was done so on that basis - that it was a medical procedure done because pregnancy was a risk to the mental or physical health of the mother.

    It is simply rote formula to comply with an old law and it means nothing at all. No matter how casually abortion is taken, it`ll still go down on the records as being a necessary medical procedure to reduce risk to the mental and physical health of the woman.
  215. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 2:34 pm
    Besides, think about it for a moment. In England and Wales, is it really plausible that 200,000 pregnancies per year pose a severe level of medical threat to the woman? Obviously not. However, every pregnancy causes some physical harm to the woman, so every abortion can be said to be preventing harm to the woman. It`s a technicality that has become routine.
  216. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    February 16, 2011 at 11:35 pm
    @musuko - apologies about the name fu - its my shotgun keyboard technique.

    "Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns...First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks."

    Source from ECG of premature babies
  217. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    February 17, 2011 at 4:45 am
    @MattPrince

    That would suggest, then, that it is possible to see when activity first starts in the brain, and build an abortion policy around it.

    @Angilion

    Ah, I didn`t realise that about the technicality, so I`ll conceed my point to you on that.

    The other point remains, though: that the majority abort very early, well before the 20 weeks needed for brain activity to start that MattPrince has uncovered.

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