The best in arts & entertainment, news, pop culture, and your mom since 2002.

[Total: 26    Average: 3.1/5]
158 Comments - View/Add
Hits: 16669
Rating: 3.1
Category:
Date: 02/20/11 08:25 AM

158 Responses to GA Rep (GOP) Says No Such thing as Rape Victims

  1. Profile photo of psychosax
    psychosax Male 18-29
    121 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 8:27 am
    Link: GA Rep (GOP) Says No Such thing as Rape Victims - Georgia State Rep. Bobby Franklin tries to take away the rights of women again. This time, raped women are NOT victims.
  2. Profile photo of NotTHATbored
    NotTHATbored Female 18-29
    1101 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 8:47 am
    How the heck do people like this get into office? He wants to illuminate drivers licenses? Seriously? Yea, he`s a real winner.
  3. Profile photo of Volsunga
    Volsunga Male 18-29
    1548 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 8:47 am
    I understand where the guy is coming from, the same political correctness as using the term: "alleged". Keeping in mind "innocent until proven guilty". But singling out these specific types of cases still seems wrong.
  4. Profile photo of inversegrav
    inversegrav Male 30-39
    770 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 8:54 am
    I am devil`s advocate:

    How many men have had their lives ruined because an ex gf suddenly decides to accuse them of something like sexual harrasment?

    Several drinks dancing on the floor, and as the country song says
    "Starts out as hey where you from and it turned into Oh No what have I done?"

    My guess: This guy had himself or a family member or a friend accused and convicted because of a conwoman making a claim because she was pissed at the guy.
  5. Profile photo of Kegomatix
    Kegomatix Male 18-29
    1341 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 9:00 am
    Sounds like rapist talk to me.
  6. Profile photo of IceDragon77
    IceDragon77 Male 18-29
    490 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 9:04 am
    I kinda agree with inversegrav in that it is so easy for someone to be accused of rape without doing anything wrong, however at the same time I can see the other standpoint as well.
  7. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1610 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 9:04 am
    John Edwards, your title is in jeopardy
  8. Profile photo of Intaresting
    Intaresting Male 18-29
    812 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 9:11 am
    Republican.. Why am I not surprised?
  9. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36834 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 9:14 am
    Republican? Sounds more like a Libertarian.
    They believe that if you get away with it, it`s legal.
  10. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33107 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 9:14 am
    Well, there is some merit in formalizing `legal language` but it has to be across the board, eh? Not just a few types of crimes.
    I fail to see how this "takes away the rights of women" in any way, unless OP thinks women have the "right to be a victim"?
    -- Think of it as "empowerment" -- I`m not a victim (passive), I accuse you (active) of a crime!
  11. Profile photo of Volsunga
    Volsunga Male 18-29
    1548 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 9:18 am
    @brassbull


    John Edward, fake psychic and South Park`s Biggest Douche in the Universe

    different from:

    John Edwards, politician who cheated on his dying wife.
  12. Profile photo of cobrakiller
    cobrakiller Male 18-29
    7473 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 9:19 am
    looks like somebodies trying to cover his tracks
  13. Profile photo of darkgear6
    darkgear6 Male 70 & Over
    1378 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 9:27 am
    `everything happens for a reason`
  14. Profile photo of yoda141
    yoda141 Male 18-29
    266 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 9:39 am
    Now I hate the republican party just as much as the next guy, but i think this is not saying rape victims aren`t victims. In a courtroom, the accused is innocent until proven guilty, and calling the victim accuser is living up to that principle.
  15. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 9:46 am
    I`m on the fence here. I don`t see much point to going either way. Usually 5Cats is wrong about everything, but I can`t prove it this time.

    I see this as a good change if and only if there was a very large number of false rape accusations going on... in that case there would be many more "accusers" than "victims" and so the "accuser" label would be statistically more correct.
  16. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36834 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 9:47 am

    I`m not sure how John Edwards got dragged into this,
    but I like him.
  17. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1610 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 9:59 am
    "I`m not sure how John Edwards got dragged into this"

    Me either. John Edwards just has no relevance to this post at all.
  18. Profile photo of KPres
    KPres Male 30-39
    309 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:00 am
    "There is some merit in the idea of neutralizing legal and courtroom language to help focus potential jurors on the facts of a case, instead of the emotions raised by issues of rape and similar offenses, said Russell Gabriel, director of the University of Georgia School of Law`s Criminal Defense Clinic. "When we assume the facts that a jury is being asked to decide by presuming that an individual is in fact a victim, then we are undercutting some of the foundational principles of our legal system," Gabriel said."


    Amazing what you find when you actually read the article.

    Of course, anybody`s who`s ever visited the Huffington Post knows liberals don`t actually read articles, just the blatantly misleading headlines.
  19. Profile photo of WeePee
    WeePee Male 18-29
    612 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:02 am
    if a person is innocent until proven guilty, then shouldn`t the other person be a accuser until proven victim? in law everything is taken to mean exactly how it is worded, this change just makes sense to me.
  20. Profile photo of KPres
    KPres Male 30-39
    309 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:03 am
    Also from the actual article (you know, the one the link points to)...

    "Carol Tracy, director of the Women`s Law Center, an advocacy organization, agreed with the call for neutral language, but said neither "victim" nor "accuser" are appropriate. In Pennsylvania, where she lives, the law references "complaintants," she said."


    Why is it so easy to make liberals look dumb?
  21. Profile photo of ruthless1990
    ruthless1990 Female 18-29
    3001 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:06 am
    not cool :(
  22. Profile photo of KPres
    KPres Male 30-39
    309 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:07 am
    More nuggets from the actual article...

    "In an interview with CNN Monday, Fiddler said she would like to think that Franklin didn`t mean to diminish rape victims with the legislation."


    ...still haven`t found where he said anything even remotely resembling "there`s no such thing as rape victims."

    Nevertheless, the liberal subspecies that visits this site no doubt will leave thinking that he did say that.
  23. Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:10 am
    "KPres"

    You`re a moron.
  24. Profile photo of KPres
    KPres Male 30-39
    309 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:11 am
    In short, for those of us with triple-digit IQs, the man said nothing offensive at all, and his bill is merely concerned with legal definition, and maintaining the "innocent until proven guilty" maxim, which liberals no doubt think is just some outdated mumbo-jumbo like constitutionalism, more trappings of bourgeois aristocracy.
  25. Profile photo of KPres
    KPres Male 30-39
    309 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:12 am
    "You`re a moron."

    Creative!
  26. Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:15 am
    I think I get where he`s going with this. Some crimes are difficult to prove because it is easy for the "victim" to lie about it. I`m surprised he didn`t single out sexual harassment, though, but that is one of the most subjective laws on the books. In many cases, sexual harassment is one person`s word against another`s, with little to no evidence either way. Rape, I think, is easier to prove. Generally, signs of a struggle indicate rape. It can be harder in cases like date rape, or if the victim takes their time stepping forward with it, but I don`t think that rape is a subjectively tried crime. I would definitely not call domestic abuse subjective - just look for bruising. Stalking is another difficult one. Your best bet is to have a police witness, but that doesn`t always happen.
  27. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:19 am
    kpres said: "Why is it so easy to make liberals look dumb?"

    I suppose you`d think that way if YOU had read the whole article: "Burglary victims are still victims. Assault victims are still victims. Fraud victims are still victims,". Without the bill including all crimes, there is a clear and specific target in this bill, and it`s women.

    I was going to make some snide comment about how ieasy it is to make cons look dumb, but the fact is, we don`t have to make them look dumb. You do it just fine by yourselves.
  28. Profile photo of KPres
    KPres Male 30-39
    309 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:19 am
    I love this part...

    "`I am dismayed ... angry ... and shocked by your wacked out ideologies concerning VICTIMS of rape,` one commenter wrote on Franklin`s Facebook page.


    Good thing the "centrist" CNN giving me the always insightful commentary put forth by no doubt impeccably credentialed "anonymous facebook poster".

    That really puts the issue in perspective!
  29. Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:23 am
    Gerry: I don`t know if you`re being flippant, or inflammatory, or both, but that`s not what libertarians think. The non-anarcho-capitalist variety still believes in rule of law, they just want fewer laws that legislate "morality". The anarcho-capitalist variety typically has some personal code of ethics that involves not harming anyone else and believes that those who harm others are deserving of repercussions. Those repercussions are not always possible, but they are the preferred state of affairs.
  30. Profile photo of KPres
    KPres Male 30-39
    309 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:26 am
    "I suppose you`d think that way if YOU had read the whole article: "Burglary victims are still victims. Assault victims are still victims. Fraud victims are still victims,". Without the bill including all crimes, there is a clear and specific target in this bill, and it`s women."


    Apparently the director of the WOMEN`S LAW CENTER disagrees with you. But what could she possibly know about, you know, women`s law?

    Let`s try this again...

    "Carol Tracy, director of the Women`s Law Center, an advocacy organization, agreed with the call for neutral language, but said neither "victim" nor "accuser" are appropriate. In Pennsylvania, where she lives, the law references "complaintants," she said."
  31. Profile photo of KPres
    KPres Male 30-39
    309 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:27 am
    Face it liberals, I caught you lying (once again).

    And I`m not even funded by George Soros!
  32. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36834 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:30 am
    green_batman: Have you read the Libertarian Charter? Yes they want fewer laws. Like obliterating all child labor laws. Removing laws that require children to attend school. Removing all labor laws so you can make a worker do anything for any low sum, no minimum wage. They`d take us back 200 years and have 7 year olds in mills. I`d call that harming people.

    and also, shouldn`t your name be "green_batgirl" ?
  33. Profile photo of KPres
    KPres Male 30-39
    309 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:30 am
    "Me either. John Edwards just has no relevance to this post at all."

    That`s OK, neither does the post`s title!
  34. Profile photo of Jadesy
    Jadesy Female 18-29
    154 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:40 am
    I dunno...I`m not sure I really agree with this idea. I understand the reason behind it I suppose, you want a jury to look at a case objectively, and with the label of "victim" automatically given to someone, you may get into a mindset where what they say has to be true because they are the poor, defenseless victim, and not someone accusing someone else of a crime.

    However. As -it is stated in the article- by the director of the Women`s Law Center (People do read the article sometimes Kpres) the term "accuser" does have a hostile ring to it. It does need more neutrality.

    Also while ms. Fiddler said she likes to think he didn`t mean to diminish rape victims, she also said the language lacked empathy and awareness. Just on a personal level, I think both of those are required for these types of cases and how they`re handled.
  35. Profile photo of Jadesy
    Jadesy Female 18-29
    154 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:43 am
    Oh on another note, just a random observation, everyone says this is attack against women...honestly, couldn`t it just be considered an attack against all types of people who are the supposed victims of these types of crime?

    I know it probably doesn`t happen often, but men are sometimes the victims of these crimes as well.
  36. Profile photo of handimanner
    handimanner Male 60-69
    2095 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:46 am
    Other legislation by Franklin includes eliminating driver`s licences "agents of the state demanding your papers", a bill to allow cows and other farm animals in yards and a requirement that government make all payments in gold and silver.
    This nutjob is exactly why American politics are at an impasse.
  37. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:54 am
    Well the title of this post was misleading and inflammatory as all hell.

    It is weird that he chose that category of alone instead of all of them, but it`s a stretch to accuse him of saying there are no such thing as rape victims.
  38. Profile photo of Lolboy
    Lolboy Male 70 & Over
    798 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 11:07 am
    The title wasn`t misleading, not really.

    Yeah ok, there are some people that are going to falsely accuse someone of raping them, but false accusations happen inevitably in every type of crime: burglary, assault, theft, etc.

    There is no logical reason to eliminate the word "victim".
  39. Profile photo of BrimstoneOne
    BrimstoneOne Male 30-39
    2229 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 11:10 am
    Well that what ya get when you close mental wards and hospitals. The crazies take over! And the sick thing is the majority bought the lies, and now everyone got to deal with this bat poo crazy wing nut.

    How did this libertarian hack get where he is?

  40. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 11:16 am
    CrakrJak said: "It is weird that he chose that category of alone instead of all of them,"

    No. Not for a right-winger it`s not.
  41. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 11:18 am
    Lolboy said: "There is no logical reason to eliminate the word "victim".`

    Even if there`s any possibility that that word could influence a jury? I`m not against changing the word. I`m just appaled that the bill doesn`t encompass all crimes.
  42. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 11:31 am
    Kpres said: "Apparently the director of the WOMEN`S LAW CENTER disagrees with you. But what could she possibly know about, you know, women`s law? "
    No. She agrees with me. My issue isn`t with the change in the language. it`s about only including crimes that are normally against women.
  43. Profile photo of gorgack2000
    gorgack2000 Male 13-17
    4682 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 11:34 am
    SENSATIONALIST TITLE:
    "GA Rep (GOP) Says No Such thing as Rape Victims. Georgia State Rep. Bobby Franklin tries to take away the rights of women again. This time, raped women are NOT victims."

    ACTUAL STORY:
    Bobby Franklin wants the word "victim" replaced with "accuser" in rape cases.

    This is in no way diminishing women`s rights. Stop over-sensationalising.
  44. Profile photo of KPres
    KPres Male 30-39
    309 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 11:39 am
    "No. She agrees with me. My issue isn`t with the change in the language. it`s about only including crimes that are normally against women."

    I actually agree with you. But as the law professor said, this kind of wording is mostly an issue with crimes that carry strong emotional sentiment like rape. Burglary doesn`t really fit the bill. Nobody gets emotionally worked up over a shoplifter.
  45. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 11:48 am
    @kpres: Oh..I see what you did there. You used the word "burlary" and then the word "shoplifter" in the same sentence! That was worth a try, and I guess we don`t get "worked up" over shoplifting (unless you`re a store owner), but if your house is burgled, I would tend to think you might get a little "worked up". It kind of messes with your sense of security, y`know?
  46. Profile photo of KPres
    KPres Male 30-39
    309 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 11:49 am
    "Have you read the Libertarian Charter? Yes they want fewer laws. Like obliterating all child labor laws. Removing laws that require children to attend school. Removing all labor laws so you can make a worker do anything for any low sum, no minimum wage. They`d take us back 200 years and have 7 year olds in mills. I`d call that harming people."

    Apparently you haven`t looked into their justifications. Removing child labor laws wouldn`t mean 7-year-olds in mills. That only happens in developing countries where poverty is so widespread the children have to work or starve. It has no bearing on modern Western society. Also, the minimum wage creates unemeployment. A company doesn`t "choose" what they`re going to pay somebody, they pay what the market will bear (thats basic supply and demand). Also forcing kids to go to school isn`t always good. See the child suicide rate. Public education can be a terrible environment.

    I`m not a Libertarian, but
  47. Profile photo of mrwhale
    mrwhale Male 18-29
    18 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 11:51 am
    So only women are raped?
  48. Profile photo of KPres
    KPres Male 30-39
    309 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 11:52 am
    (continued)

    ...a lot of times they`re right. You shouldn`t get rid of all labor laws, but you have to allow the exceptions. The minimum wage shouldn`t done away with, but it should be lowered in a recession, etc, etc.
  49. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36834 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 11:53 am
    Removing child labor laws wouldn`t mean 7-year-olds in mills.

    Then why remove them at all if you don`t intend to work the little bastards?
  50. Profile photo of Negativitron
    Negativitron Male 18-29
    66 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 12:08 pm
    If a woman got raped, then she is a victim of rape, no matter who did it. If she`s an "accuser", the word doesn`t carry the fact that she was raped, just that she`s accusing someone of raping her. It, because of the semantics, implicitly states that a woman who gets raped is not a victim. This is bull.
  51. Profile photo of splurbyburbl
    splurbyburbl Male 30-39
    2798 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 12:13 pm
    If he means to get rid of the term "victim" and replace it with "accuser" for only pre-trial stuff, then I agree. CNN was really vague on that matter.

    The reason I agree is because (BTW I abhore rape and assault, etc.) I know from both personal experience and research that a huge number of accusations never really happened. I also know for a fact that many people ACCUSED of assualt or rape, never did a damn thing. Women have a very big a disgusting power to destroy the entire life of a man with an accusation and they absolutely know it.
  52. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 12:17 pm
    Kpres said: "A company doesn`t "choose" what they`re going to pay somebody, they pay what the market will bear".
    Ok..in today`s market, I think we`d all agree that the they would pay considerably less than what the minimum wage is now. Ask yourself if you could raise a family on that wage. Also ask yourself why it is that countries that have no minimum wage still have unemployment problems and poverty.
  53. Profile photo of splurbyburbl
    splurbyburbl Male 30-39
    2798 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 12:19 pm
    "Yeah ok, there are some people that are going to falsely accuse someone of raping them, but false accusations happen inevitably in every type of crime: burglary, assault, theft, etc.

    There is no logical reason to eliminate the word "victim"."

    They are not a victim of anything if it never happened. So, if you walk into a courtroom ready to be judged by a jury of your peers but you never did anything; yet everyone was calling your accuser a "victim", doesn`t that imply that you did do something? That the accuser is YOUR victim? It`s nonsense and unfortunately, this Governor wouldn`t have to take such measures if it were not for the petty small mindedness of the general public. Many of which post dumb messages on IAB.
  54. Profile photo of Negativitron
    Negativitron Male 18-29
    66 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 12:19 pm
    @ KPres

    I disagree with your reasoning behind abolishing those laws because it`s faulty. Say, hypothetically, that murders never occured, at all. Why should there be laws against murder?
  55. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 12:21 pm
    @nagativitron: Again, in the eyes of the courts, there are no "victims" until someone is convicted of the crime. The issue shouldn`t be about the change of the word..it should be about the fact that the bill only includes crimes directed primaraly at women.
  56. Profile photo of splurbyburbl
    splurbyburbl Male 30-39
    2798 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 12:21 pm
    Sorry... representative
  57. Profile photo of Lolboy
    Lolboy Male 70 & Over
    798 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 12:28 pm
    @splurby:

    Yeah, that does make sense then. I was under the impression that "victim" was used in cases other than rape, but then I realized that it is usually "plaintiff" and "defendant".
  58. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 12:29 pm
    kpres said: "The minimum wage shouldn`t done away with, but it should be lowered in a recession, etc, etc."

    Really? During a recession, the price of consumer goods (you know, like food and gas) typically rises. So does the income of corporate CEO`s and Wall Street crooks, and yet, you`re first impulse is to REDUCE the income of hard working people.
    You know that bumper sticker that says "mean people suck"? It just occurred to me that that might actually be a political statement.
  59. Profile photo of Fincherian
    Fincherian Male 18-29
    39 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 12:49 pm
    Wow, what a misleading article heading.

    There`s no stigma to the word "accuser" if you`re not an idiot, since courts are supposed to be fact finding, not tucking people in and making people feel better by using words like victim before someone is convicted.

    If you`ve been falsely accused of a crime (as I have), you would know how horrifying and life altering it is to even be accused of something, even if you`re cleared of it. It doesn`t change how people treat you even if you`re not guilty.

    Which is to say that rapists should be convicted and locked away while avoiding false convictions.
  60. Profile photo of DuckBoy87
    DuckBoy87 Male 18-29
    3279 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 12:50 pm
    "Innocent until proven guilty."
    When the crime has gone through court and the defendant is proven guilty, then the accuser is a victim.

    I think that is what it is meant. When one is labeled as a victim, there is a mindset that people get that the accused is automatically guilty, without a fair and partial trial.

    All in all, it`s a terminology thing, not a "I`m trying to hurt a particular group of people" thing.
  61. Profile photo of chimmeychang
    chimmeychang Male 30-39
    685 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 12:52 pm
    yeah, i think it was a misleading story. The intent i get from it is this...when you call someone a victim, they gain automatic sympathy from a jury, even if the accusation is false. This will sway the jury emotionally to find for the "victim". Assuming this is the case, it seems to be trying to be fair to those wrongly accused. The headline though is very misleading, and an example of poor journalism bordering on defamation or slander. Theft and murder can be justified by self preservation, there is NO justification for sexual assault, and should have much stiffer penalties in the case of convictions.
  62. Profile photo of chunkymonkie
    chunkymonkie Male 13-17
    670 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 12:55 pm
    drat POLITICAL CORRECTNESS
  63. Profile photo of Arkohn
    Arkohn Male 18-29
    11 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 12:56 pm
    @jtrebowski
    A wage floor such as the Federal minimum wage, is one of the many inhibitors to recovery in recessions. Without downward flexibility in wages employers must instead layoff employees, thus reducing production. This can lead to cyclical unemployment, or the "downward spiral" as it is often coined in the media.
  64. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 12:56 pm
    spurblyburbl said: "I also know for a fact that many people ACCUSED of assualt or rape, never did a damn thing."

    Whoa down there, buddy. You know for a "fact"? Just because someone is not convicted, doesn`t mean they didn`t commit the crime. What is your definition of a "huge number"?
    Everyone deserves a fair trial, and if changing the words we use in court helps with fairness, than so be it, but that change should apply to all crimes against people, not just ones that apply mostly to women. It would also help your position if you could provide proof of how "huge" your numbers are. Personally, I think you`re exaggerating, but I welcome the opportunity for you to prove me wrong.
  65. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 1:03 pm
    @arkohn: 1) Then how would they afford to buy basic needs like groceries, which would, in turn, y`know, improve the economy. I don`t know how companies selling less products does anyone any good.
    2) I own my own company. Are you looking for a job? I`d be more than happy to hire you. In fact..I`ll even let you set your own pay scale. LOL!
  66. Profile photo of Rick_S
    Rick_S Male 40-49
    3291 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 1:26 pm
    "yeah, i think it was a misleading story. The intent i get from it is this...when you call someone a victim, they gain automatic sympathy from a jury, even if the accusation is false. This will sway the jury emotionally to find for the `victim`."

    If that`s your goal, which is not a bad goal at all, then EVERYONE should be relabeled from "victim" to "accuser." And that`s the big issue I see here. The article pointed out that victims of burglary, assault and fraud are still victims. If that`s the case, than you`re diminishing the impact that rape has on someone.

    Yes, there are false accusations, and the checks and balances that are in place to stop them from getting to court don`t always work. But don`t change one group to an accuser when others get to stay victims.
  67. Profile photo of KPres
    KPres Male 30-39
    309 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 1:42 pm
    "Really? During a recession, the price of consumer goods (you know, like food and gas) typically rises."

    No, this is incorrect. Recessions are deflationary. Sometimes, in modern recessions, we worry about inflation, but that`s because the central bank is pumping money into the system to fight the DEFLATION. This isn`t really controversial. Google the great depression.

  68. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 1:44 pm
    @Rick S. "But don`t change one group to an accuser when others get to stay victims."

    Exactly.
  69. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 1:49 pm
    @kpes: Look. I`m not a finacial expert, but I do know that the price of consumer goods has risen since our economy started to tank. In any case, I`m still willing to hire people like you that don`t believe in a minimum wage. It would help me expand my business, and I nned a new boat. Look me up. I can help you.
  70. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 2:01 pm
    chunkiemonie said: "drat POLITICAL CORRECTNESS"

    Yup. Couldn`t agree with you more. Remember when Palin said that White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel should be fired for an incident in which he referred to a group of liberals as "F-ing retarded."? However, when Rush Limbaugh repeatedly used the word "retard" in a on his radio show, Palin chided the incident but on Fox "News" Sunday dismissed it as satire.
    I get in crapped on all the time for using the terms "knuckle-dreagging neandrathals" or "mouth-breathers" instead of the more PC term "conservative".

  71. Profile photo of splurbyburbl
    splurbyburbl Male 30-39
    2798 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 2:06 pm
    @jtrebowski:

    There are numbers out there, but since it is a very subjective topic, of course all the number vary widely, are debated, depend on extenuating circumstances, etc. However, let`s talk about what rape actually is.

    Did you know that according to the UCMJ, if a male were to have consentual sex with a female who imbibed only one alcoholic drink, it is considered rape? Military females know this and some have done this on purpose. There is a case in 29 Palms, Ca. where females were blackmailing Marines into giving them money or they would claim rape. The fact of the matter is, all a woman has to do it to say it and *poof*... a life stands a good chance of being ruined. I know these things from personal experience. (Meaning I have born witness to it... I am not a victim of it.)
  72. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36834 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 2:14 pm
  73. Profile photo of keith2
    keith2 Male 30-39
    2589 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 2:22 pm
    Yep this is good, all it takes is 1 woman to get pissed at you and cry rape. Even if you didn`t do a damn thing, your life and reputation is now ruined. And if you did do it, she shouldn`t have been wearing such rapey clothes that day.
  74. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 2:24 pm
    ah, fuggit. None of this matters. Little E just got wrecked
  75. Profile photo of JoeYC
    JoeYC Male 18-29
    721 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 2:30 pm
    my brother got arrested for "rape", after she put my brother though hell, she confessed and said he didnt do it, she was just scared because she got drunk and her mum didnt want her to drink, so she said he spiked her drink.
    Also another old friend who had sex with a girl with consent while she was drunk got him arrested and almost in prison, before a witness came forward and told them she heard her agree with it. (was staying at her house)

    So really they shouldnt be called vitim`s untill it has been proven, neither should the other person be called a rapist or sex offender till convicted.
  76. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 2:38 pm
    If a woman got raped, then she is a victim of rape, no matter who did it. If she`s an "accuser", the word doesn`t carry the fact that she was raped, just that she`s accusing someone of raping her. It, because of the semantics, implicitly states that a woman who gets raped is not a victim. This is bull.

    Are you honest enough to stand by your argument and call for all men accused of rape to be declared guilty and imprisoned without trial?

    That *is* what you`re advocating. You`d have to be very stupid to not realise that.

    Are there any other crimes for which you think one person`s word should be presumed absolute proof of guilt?

    Or is it purely prejudice on your part and you assume people from a "wrong" biological group are always guilty when accused by people from the "right" biological group? Maybe you`d prefer lynching to trials?
  77. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 2:43 pm
    @nagativitron: Again, in the eyes of the courts, there are no "victims" until someone is convicted of the crime. The issue shouldn`t be about the change of the word..it should be about the fact that the bill only includes crimes directed primaraly at women.

    Or crimes for which presumption of guilt is particularly common and particularly harmful.

    If that is crimes directed primarily at woman, the problem is the superior social status of women over men, i.e. the cause of the presumption and degree of harm.
  78. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 2:44 pm
    @Gerry1of1: I guess we`re all retards.
  79. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 2:47 pm
    Angillion said "...the problem is the superior social status of women over men,..."

    You are incorrect. Men still hold the advantage over women in almost every way..unless, of course, we`re trying to get some pussy.
  80. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 2:50 pm
    jtrebowski: No. Not for a right-winger it`s not.

    Are you trying to make the accusation that `right-wingers` hate rape victims ? or don`t believe rape is a crime ?

    If so you are being moronic.
  81. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 2:58 pm
    Keith2 said: "Yep this is good, all it takes is 1 woman to get pissed at you and cry rape. Even if you didn`t do a damn thing, your life and reputation is now ruined. And if you did do it, she shouldn`t have been wearing such rapey clothes that day."

    Well, you were doing just fine until the "wearing such rapey clothes" bit. See, that`s why conservatives are generally considered such moronic pussies. The thread was actually going along pretty well, with some sense of agreement, then you come along with a conservative talking point that cons learned didn`t work at least two or three years ago, blaming women for being raped because of how they`re dressed, and it all goes to Hell. Buddy, not only are you an idiot, but you have exposed yourself as a pussy-phobic woman-hating conservative. Why don`t you take a hike, and direct your vile spew towards Ann Coulter. She never dresses provacatively. LMAO!
  82. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 2:59 pm
    Silly
  83. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 3:18 pm
    CrakrJak said: "Are you trying to make the accusation that `right-wingers` hate rape victims ? or don`t believe rape is a crime ?"

    No. However, it does seem that the general tendancy of the right is to take the side of the accused, and the left`s is to take the side of the accuser. I was simply pointing that out. As an example, I might bring up how Republicans voted aginst Al Frankens` bil giving women the right to sue employers who might be shown to provide a safe haven for rapists or sexual harassment. I might also bring up the poster I just responded to who thinks that women who get raped might bear some blame because of the way they`re dressed.
    Look. I just don`t get it. Whatever the topic might be, you right-wingers seem to have a knee-jerk reaction in defense of whoever ultimately has more power to begin with. I sppose we have the opposite knee-jerk reation on the left, but I think it represents a larger segment of the population.
  84. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 3:44 pm
    Angillion said "...the problem is the superior social status of women over men,..."

    You are incorrect. Men still hold the advantage over women in almost every way..unless, of course, we`re trying to get some pussy.

    Do you actually believe that or are you, in your own words, "trying to get some pussy"?

    Because if you actually believe that, you`re deluded.

    Incidentally, you`re also misquoting me by taking part of a sentence out of context. Was that deliberate? "If x is true then y is true" is very different to "y is true".
  85. Profile photo of TheBLB
    TheBLB Male 18-29
    237 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 4:01 pm
    SO THERE I WAS

    JUST TRYING TO KILLA FEW MINUTES

    and oh... awesome... exposed to Fancylad`s (or whoever`s) political bias again. The article is going to speak for itself. Not everything requires you to point out your opinion.

    Cute cat plays with yarn - I GUESS THERE IS NO GOD

    -signed,

    Canadians who have to deal with your childish political red/blue bullpoo all day long
  86. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 4:05 pm
    @ angillion: Here is the entire exchange between you and me: @nagativitron: Again, in the eyes of the courts, there are no "victims" until someone is convicted of the crime. The issue shouldn`t be about the change of the word..it should be about the fact that the bill only includes crimes directed primaraly at women. (that was me)....now..here`s you..in it`s entirety):
    "Or crimes for which presumption of guilt is particularly common and particularly harmful.

    If that is crimes directed primarily at woman, the problem is the superior social status of women over men, i.e. the cause of the presumption and degree of harm."

    That defination of"i.e" is "that is to say", meaning that you presume that women have a social advantage over men. I`m not sure where you get that idea. Other than the occasional story where it`s found that women have used rape accusations to their advantage (the Duke case is a good one), the fact is most
  87. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 4:12 pm
    (cont) rapes are real. There is no reason to get your panties in a twist. I`m simply making an observation that Liberals tend to automatically take the side of the perceived victe...er..complainent, and that conservatives tend to take the side of the accused.
    Aa far as trying to get pussy, I`m married. I don`t have to worry about it any more, but if you don`t know what I`m talking about, maybe it`s time for you to consider getting tested for HIV.
  88. Profile photo of furryblob
    furryblob Male 18-29
    574 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 4:16 pm
    Typical `hate you all` rightwingers.
  89. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 4:17 pm
    @TheBLB: Really? Everyone in Canada just agrees? No Liberals. No CONSERVATIVES???? Whoo hoo! No wonder Canadians are so polite. (that last bit wasnr sarcastic..u guys are pretty nice) I`m there as soon as you can figure out a way to make it a litttle warmer. lol
  90. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 4:21 pm
    furryblob said: "Typical `hate you all` rightwingers."

    Easy now. I`m a sucessful,straight, white, Christian,married man. They don`t show me any hate...until they find out I`m a Liberal.
  91. Profile photo of docwatson
    docwatson Male 18-29
    253 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 4:29 pm
    The bill makes perfect sense to me, because otherwise one is automatically assuming one of the involved parties is guilty before even having a trial, which, as we all know, isn`t how the justice system works.
  92. Profile photo of OutWest
    OutWest Male 50-59
    546 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 4:34 pm
    Citizens on the right do not approve of rape any more than citizens on the left.

    This whole left right thing is absurd. We citizens of the USA are a good people overall. Not perfect of course. That goodness does not reside more in the left or the right.

    It will be good when we can disagree without resorting to painting our opponents opinions as evil.

    Don`t you think?

    Unless you simply like to argue and call each other names? (Which I suspect is true to some degree)
  93. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 4:56 pm
    I see what this guy`s trying to do. Yes there are "accusers" then there are "victims" this man needs to be more delicate than replacing ALL instances of the word "victim".
  94. Profile photo of dude21862004
    dude21862004 Male 18-29
    768 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 5:04 pm
    The dude is a complete tool, considering his other legislation ideas. However, there is a point in changing the WORDING from victim to something else that is more neutral. Victim implies that there is no doubt the person was raped.

    I doubt that`s why he filed the legislation, though. Seems to me he`s just trying to get attention.
  95. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 5:15 pm
    @cajun: Maybe the word "victim" isn`t politically correct enough for them.
  96. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 5:21 pm
    outwest said: "Citizens on the right do not approve of rape any more than citizens on the left."
    No, but you are missing a few points. First, as I have pointed out, conservatives don`t have the better track record with regards to protecting alleged rape victims (or whatever you want to call them). Secondly, the bill doesn`t cover all victims (or whaterver you want to call them) of crime. Just the ones primarily directed towards women.

  97. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 5:24 pm
    DocWatson said: "The bill makes perfect sense to me, because otherwise one is automatically assuming one of the involved parties is guilty before even having a trial, which, as we all know, isn`t how the justice system works."

    Care to suggest an amendment to include all crimes against people, or is it "perfect" because it`s just a rape bill?
  98. Profile photo of splurbyburbl
    splurbyburbl Male 30-39
    2798 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 5:31 pm
    "Canadians who have to deal with your childish political red/blue bullpoo all day long"

    Canadians who **CHOOSE** to deal with your childish political red/blue bullpoo all day long.

    ((I went ahead and fixed that for ya... you`re welcome.))
  99. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 5:49 pm
    Maybe the word "victim" isn`t politically correct enough for them.

    What`s that supposed to mean?
  100. Profile photo of LittleMickey
    LittleMickey Female 18-29
    227 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 5:58 pm
    Someone should rape him.
  101. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 6:05 pm
    @cajun: It seems that the word "victim" when applied to only certain demographics offends only a segment of society, which, if changed, would placate only a segment of society, it fits the definition of political correctnes.
  102. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 6:12 pm
    @Cajun: To clarify, Liberals are often accused of being "PC" (like it`s ALWAYS a bad thing) but the the cons trot out whiners like Sarah Palin anytime anyone but Rush Limbaugh uses the word "retard". It`s not a big deal, and it`s off topic. I was just making a point. Now, back to our regular programming.
  103. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 6:50 pm
    I agree with both the replacement in rape cases, and the replacement only in rape cases (although I`m very surprised "victim" is actually the correct legal terminology in any case).

    In something like a burglary case, it is often obvious that the actual crime took place, and the case revolves around attempting to prove or disprove that the defendants were the perpetrators. Regardless of whether the defendant was the burglar or not, it`s (usually) obvious that the crime definitely occured and the person suffered burglary, and so it`s acceptable to refer to them as a victim.

    In a rape case, the area of contention tends to be far more centred on whether rape actually occurred, or whether any sex was consensual. In this case, when you`re trying to prove/disprove that a crime actually occurred, labelling one party "victim" before that is proven is indeed misleading.
  104. Profile photo of BluishOrange
    BluishOrange Female 50-59
    87 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 7:51 pm
    I`d hazard a guess that men who like and respect women and treat them accordingly are rarely, if ever, falsely accused of rape.
  105. Profile photo of splurbyburbl
    splurbyburbl Male 30-39
    2798 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 8:41 pm
    "I`d hazard a guess that men who like and respect women and treat them accordingly are rarely, if ever, falsely accused of rape."

    It would indeed be hazardous to think this way. Not flaming you, just telling you how it is.
  106. Profile photo of W2
    W2 Male 13-17
    244 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 8:41 pm
    rape =/= rape
    makes sense
  107. Profile photo of rahlzel
    rahlzel Male 18-29
    11 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 8:43 pm
    I agree with almightybob1.

    Rep. Bobby Franklin is actually improving on the "innocent until proven guilty" standard by making rape completely objective as opposed to instantly labeling someone who says they were raped as a victim. With this change, women who lie about being raped for their own gain must have proof.

    Don`t let `em bring ya down, Bobby. You`re doing the right thing.
  108. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 9:48 pm
    Best my poor internet reearch skills can tell, he`s a far right winger who is a fierce opponent of abortion and gay rights, who holds that America has strayed from its Christian past and the country needs to be changed into a Christian nation. Franklin believes that legislation that is in direct opposition to God`s word will bring about the wrath of God. Last year he stated that "Islamic terrorism is not the greatest threat facing America. God is."

    As much as I personally find all that weird religious hyperbole abhorrent, surely in this case he`s just staing that "Victims" of sexual assault shouldn`t be called such until a legal case is proven. Heck, if my ex-wife (if I had one) told the courts that I had broken into her house and stolen her underwear, I`d rather her be labelled the "Accuser" rather than the "Victim", until I had been proven guilty. She may have been making all that stuff up.
  109. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 9:52 pm
    Am I missing something here? He may be a mouth-breathing mentalist, but this is not a mentalist position to take. Our entire legal system is based on "innocent until proven guilty", isn`t it?

    I`ve just dipped in and haven`t read the backstory. Please don`t hate me if I`m missing some underlying point.
  110. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:09 pm
    jtrebowski: I just responded to who thinks that women who get raped might bear some blame because of the way they`re dressed.

    Isn`t it the liberals that accuse conservatives of being too tough on crime, most of the time ?

    Your statement actually sounds like something a radical islamist would say in Iran, not what a conservative would say in America.

    you right-wingers seem to have a knee-jerk reaction in defense of whoever ultimately has more power to begin with.

    That`s a common misconception, because the left loves to tag the "underdog" and `grassroots` labels on their agendas, even when those labels are misleading at best.
  111. Profile photo of iLove
    iLove Female 18-29
    676 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:49 pm
    @davymid

    It`s more of a "treated as guilty until proven innocent" legal system.
  112. Profile photo of itellifyou
    itellifyou Male 18-29
    161 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 10:59 pm
    The devil went down to Georgia, he was looking for a soul to steal. He was in a bind `cos he was way behind: he was willin` to make a deal.
  113. Profile photo of michaelcsr
    michaelcsr Male 40-49
    559 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 11:16 pm
    I`m the last person who would want to defend terroistic republian party members, but the CNN article is a bit off. The Rep isn`t trying to say those who are raped or beaten by spouses aren`t victims, he`s trying to change the legalese because you`re not a rapist or a "wife beater" until you are proven one in court. Rape victims are still victims if they were, in fact raped. However, I`ve known no less than 3 women who have intentionaly falsly accused someone of rape or spousal abuse. They were not victims, just women who wanted to destroy someones life out of spite. SO, you may or may not be a victim, but you are accusing someone. Therefor you ARE the accuser.
  114. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 11:25 pm
    I`d hazard a guess that men who like and respect women and treat them accordingly are rarely, if ever, falsely accused of rape.

    As it`s a hazard that can`t apply to you, you can make whatever guesses you like. It`s not so simple if the hazard is relevant to you.

    What would you think of someone who said they guessed that women who behave decently rarely, if ever, get raped?

    Would you think they were blaming victims?

    If so, what`s different about what you said?
  115. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 11:31 pm
    That defination of"i.e" is "that is to say", meaning that you presume that women have a social advantage over men.

    You quoted the whole thing, replying to a post in which I explicitly explained how a conditional statement differs from an unconditional one...and you *still* ignored the condition in the statement.

    As it happens, I can confidently state that at this time in this country the average social status of women is higher than the average social status of men. This is demonstrated by many things, e.g. it is normal to assume that women are superior to men, prejudice and discrimination against men is far more widely considered acceptable than the same against women, women have greater political representation, far more public healthcare money is assigned to women...I could go on, but is there any point?
  116. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 20, 2011 at 11:33 pm
    Aa far as trying to get pussy, I`m married. I don`t have to worry about it any more, but if you don`t know what I`m talking about, maybe it`s time for you to consider getting tested for HIV.

    I`m not following your line of reasoning. Which I am thankful for as I`m sure it`s irrational, but I am interested in how you jump from "not just trying to get pussy" to "should get tested for HIV".

    As a reminder: it was you who bought up "looking for pussy". It`s not a phrase I`d use or something I`d do.
  117. Profile photo of docwatson
    docwatson Male 18-29
    253 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 12:26 am
    jtrebowski "Care to suggest an amendment to include all crimes against people, or is it `perfect` because it`s just a rape bill?"

    What I said applies to any other crime committed against someone.

    Judging from the tone I perceive your post as having, why would you assume I only think that because it`s about rape? If you feel like
    I for some reason don`t support women`s rights, you`re incredibly misaligned in your opinion. Rape can occur against any gender, so
    it isn`t at all an issue of gender rights.
    In this case, the issue is the right to a fair trial, and as should be obvious, a rape accusation
    is an incredibly lofty one that can tarnish a reputation before a trial even begins (case in point: the Duke lacrosse team rape scandal, and arguably the Kobe Bryant case).
  118. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 12:37 am
    Angillion said: "You quoted the whole thing, replying to a post in which I explicitly explained how a conditional statement differs from an unconditional one...and you *still* ignored the condition in the statement.

    As it happens, I can confidently state that at this time in this country the average social status of women is higher than the average social status of men. This is demonstrated by many things, e.g. it is normal to assume that women are superior to men, prejudice and discrimination against men is far more widely considered acceptable than the same against women, women have greater political representation, far more public healthcare money is assigned to women...I could go on, but is there any point?"


    Yes. You live in Europe. America is much more conservative.
  119. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 12:49 am
    DocWatson said: "What I said applies to any other crime committed against someone. "

    No. That`s what not you said. You said the bill was "perfect". The bill is very specific about which type of crimes are included. I encourage you and anybody else to go back throuh the thread and read what you wrote.











    oh...btw..I`m so glad you brought up the Duke University case up..now I can direct you to go back through the thread and read my statement about it as well.
  120. Profile photo of alishaangle
    alishaangle Female 18-29
    11 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 12:54 am
    GREAT THINGS ALWAYS BEGIN FROM WITHIN .!!!
  121. Profile photo of phoneybone
    phoneybone Male 18-29
    1744 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 12:55 am
    to be fair, technically he`s right. He`s just going by the "innocent until proven guilty." Labeling someone a "rape victim" places an untoward amount of guilt on the supposed offender. If he is guilty then so be it, but sometimes the chick`s just a bitch trying to get even. Seen it happen, and it`s a real f`ed up thing to do to a guy. (`course, raping a chick prolly isn`t good either)
  122. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 1:00 am
    Angillion said: "As a reminder: it was you who bought up "looking for pussy". It`s not a phrase I`d use or something I`d do."

    Sorry. I didn`t mean to imply that looking for dick was bad. I simply meant that women sometimes use sex as a power trip.
  123. Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 1:10 am
    @Gerry: Minimum wage just causes inflation. Workers will be paid what they are worth, and if the value of their labor does not match the value of their pay, the value of their pay decreases. Further, minimum wage reduces the number of available jobs. Prior to inflation, while the worker is still being overpaid, the company cannot afford to hire another worker that will be overpaid as well. Minimum wage also encourages outsourcing and non-human labor replacements. None of these things are good for poor people, so tell me how eliminating minimum wage would really set us back.

    Would you restrict a child from working if it meant his/her family was able to have food on the table? If a 10-year old is capable of bringing in some small amount of money while that 10-year old`s parents struggle to find work, isn`t it better than letting them starve? You probably have an image in mind of children working in factories and losing body parts to the machines, but child labor need not look li
  124. Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 1:11 am
    (cont) …but child labor need not look like that.

    Learning need not take place in the classroom. Given how sucky my elementary school was, I think I can honestly say that most of my elementary education came from my parents and from reading. Public schools in the US are failing miserably at educating students. Home schooling would be a vast improvement, and private schools in a competitive market would be cheaper than they are now and would provide a higher standard of education.

    Ultimately, Libertarianism is about free choice. There are a variety of things that the government forces on its citizens that people should be able to choose to go along with or not. The majority of people would choose to educate and provide for the safety of their children without the government holding their hands and telling them what to do.
  125. Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 1:11 am
    Those that choose not to are not your responsibility. You are responsible for yourself and attempting to take responsibility for others is the same as saying that you are better than others. You are not.

    Finally, my name is based on a joke from the graphic novel Formerly Known as the Justice League. The joke was that everyone hated Guy Gardner (Green Lantern) so much that they contemplated stealing his ring and giving it to Batman. On other sites, I occasionally go by the variant “green_batgirl”, but this was the first site I used green_batman on and I didn’t start using the variant until later.
  126. Profile photo of Kiwigirl2
    Kiwigirl2 Female 30-39
    1048 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 1:13 am
    Gee you guys - it`s hard enough to get some authorities to believe that rape is a bad thing without arguing that the woman isn`t a victim. It`s the old "single & pregnant = bad person vs man just sowing his oats before settling down" argument.
  127. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 1:15 am
    Angillion said: "As a reminder: it was you who bought up "looking for pussy". It`s not a phrase I`d use or something I`d do."

    Sorry. I didn`t mean to imply that looking for dick was bad. I simply meant that women sometimes use sex as a power trip.

    Ah, I see. You`re assuming that the only possible choices for a man are pointless casual sex with one type of genitals (not a person, just some genitals) or pointless casual sex with another type of genitals (ditto).

    Your assumption is wrong.

    If you`re just "looking for pussy", I suggest a sex toy instead. It`s safer and much the same thing - wanking into something.
  128. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 1:17 am
    Gee you guys - it`s hard enough to get some authorities to believe that rape is a bad thing without arguing that the woman isn`t a victim. It`s the old "single & pregnant = bad person vs man just sowing his oats before settling down" argument.

    Can you explain why the idea that presumption of guilt in court is a bad thing is that argument? I don`t see them as being the same thing.
  129. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 1:25 am
    @green batman: You claim you went to a "sucky" school? Which school? I`ll be happy to provide you wih graduation and college education rates. You are one af a segnent of Americans that hace anecdotes about bad teacher or schools, but never seem to come up with a well documented statement to support your views. sninker,
  130. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 2:11 am
    :eats some popcorn and watches the scrum:
  131. Profile photo of steven8124
    steven8124 Male 50-59
    116 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 3:52 am
    It`s simple. If it is against her will, It is rape. If she did not consent to it, she is a victim.
  132. Profile photo of steven8124
    steven8124 Male 50-59
    116 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 4:01 am
    Who voted this guy in?
  133. Profile photo of NotTHATbored
    NotTHATbored Female 18-29
    1101 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 5:38 am
    How Statute`s Would be Changed (Scroll down a paragraph to see example of proposed changed)

    Really these statutes have more to do with how the police interact with the presumed "victim" than what terminology is used later in courtroom. So I call BULL POO. I think that this is a deliberate attack on women and their sense of security. Then again maybe I`m wrong and the GA rep is just nuts, he does think that people should be allowed to drive without a license and that is certainly a stupid idea too.
  134. Profile photo of slut_etta
    slut_etta Female 50-59
    3879 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 6:23 am
    who voted in this piece of crap? if he doesn`t think that a rape victim is a victim, then maybe he should be forcefully bent over a chair and experience repeated unwanted anal penetration with a variety of objects for a considerably extended period of time. if he doesn`t think domestic battery creates victims maybe he should be beat to within an inch of his life, terrorized for a while and then have the beating start all over again. then i wonder if he will feel victimized. and this is a small taste of what victims experience.

    we should be electing our best and our brightest, not some bottom-feeding charnel sucking thing who is too dumb to read a dictionary.
  135. Profile photo of BoredFrank
    BoredFrank Male 40-49
    2373 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 6:51 am
    He`s a Republican -- so why is anyone surprised?

    This is who they are.

    News flash -- Democrats aren`t any better.
  136. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36834 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 7:00 am
    @ Green_Batchick

    Workers will be paid what they are worth
    Workers will be paid as little as greedy companies can get away with. Minimum wage assures it is not a slave labor wage.

    If a 10-year old is capable of bringing in some small amount of money while that 10-year old`s parents struggle to find work
    Of course no one wants a child to go hungry, but working an 8 year old isn`t the solution. With no minimums the parents will forever struggle and that child is now doomed to life in the mills or sweat shops.

    Do you want YOUR kid to work in a sweat shop 12 hours a day, 6 days a week?
  137. Profile photo of shinu
    shinu Male 18-29
    1387 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 8:09 am
    i see where he is coming from, the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing, but this is still kind of a bad way to put it :/
  138. Profile photo of DixxyRarr
    DixxyRarr Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 8:15 am
    I`m a little late to the party, but I`m okay with this. There`s a lot of `cried wolf` out there...
    A fake rape can ruin the life of the accused just as much as a real rape can ruin the life of the accuser.
  139. Profile photo of NotTHATbored
    NotTHATbored Female 18-29
    1101 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 9:02 am
    @DixxyRarr but what does it matter if in a law we call someone who may have been raped a "victim"? From what I can tell this change in legislation wouldn`t change the terminology used in the courtroom so much as in the law where it dictates what steps that the police are to take in regards to the "victim".

  140. Profile photo of SvampeBob
    SvampeBob Male 18-29
    3076 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 9:11 am
    TL;DR
  141. Profile photo of MurphyBed
    MurphyBed Female 18-29
    126 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 10:03 am
    It`s hard enough getting real victims of rape to go to the authorities about it. I`m sure this will go a looooong way in helping to making them feel more safe and secure during that terrible process.

    I AM ROLLING MY F*CKING EYES INTO THE NEXT STATE ARRGHDVINWDVMSDLJARUSFJL

    I wonder what Benson and Stabler have to say about this.
  142. Profile photo of DixxyRarr
    DixxyRarr Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 10:09 am
    NotTHATbored: What steps does it change in police investigation?
  143. Profile photo of docwatson
    docwatson Male 18-29
    253 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 10:48 am
    jtrebowski: "No. That`s what not you said. You said the bill was `perfect`. The bill is very specific about which type of crimes are included. I encourage you and anybody else to go back throuh the thread and read what you wrote."

    I said the bill "made perfect sense", being that it protects the defendant before the trial even occurs, which is only fair. If someone had falsely accused you of rape, would you be okay with labeling them a victim before you had a chance to say your piece or provide contrary evidence? Setting the stage for the pre-determined guilt of the accused is hardly just.
  144. Profile photo of Pandabee
    Pandabee Female 40-49
    857 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 11:23 am
    Maybe someone should introduce him to Zed, Maynard and the Gimp (Pulp Fiction)and see if his feels victimised!
  145. Profile photo of _kiersten_
    _kiersten_ Female 18-29
    1682 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 2:09 pm
    I suppose he is right. Technically they aren`t a "victim" until it was proven that they were actually raped. However, I think this was whole bill is unnecessary. I don`t see what real difference it would make in the courtroom. Not to mention that the way he worded it just sounded callous.
  146. Profile photo of Quackor
    Quackor Male 18-29
    2856 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 2:24 pm
    I want the term "serial killer" changed to "fluffy kitten dealer of happiness", the jurors in no way will be influenced, you know, because average people are so smart
  147. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 5:06 pm
    @ DocWatson: The bill won`t "make perfect sense" until it inludes all crimes against people.
  148. Profile photo of NotTHATbored
    NotTHATbored Female 18-29
    1101 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 6:06 pm
    @DixxyRarr None. It just would basically just change what the police or prosecutors read. So instead of saying "The law enforcement agency involved with the victim at the outset of a criminal prosecution for the offense of stalking or aggravated stalking shall advise the victim that" .. blah blah blah

    So it just would change how possible rape victims where referred to in legislation not in the courtroom.
  149. Profile photo of Oscola
    Oscola Male 18-29
    349 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 6:10 pm
    It makes sense. Courtroom and pre-courtroom language should be neutral. Classic example of language affecting outcomes is the question "how fast was he going when he bumped into the other car?" Vs. "how fast was he going when he smashed into the other car?" Labelling the accuser as a victim before they are determined to be one may hold influence also. The issue really is with him applying it only to those certain crimes. I suppose crimes of sexual abuse or violence are the ones more likely to get an emotional instinctual response from jurors, but still, it should be all or none.
  150. Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 6:57 pm
    @jtrebowski: I`m not telling you which elementary school I went to specifically, but I will tell you that it was under threat of reconstitution. It consistently underperformed in state testing.

    And college isn`t always an indication of being properly educated. Example: http://tinyurl.com/agz6b.

    And, if you want to talk about graduation and college education rates, you should be making the comparison between public and private school if you are trying to deny my claims. The data just doesn`t land in your favor: http://tinyurl.com/4ncqllp
  151. Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 6:57 pm
    @Gerry: If a company pays too little, the employee can look into working for other companies that pay better. This competition for employees leads to the companies eventually being forced to pay what the position is worth, because they can’t afford to pay more, but they can’t hold on to employees when they pay much less. Of course, minimum wage reduces the number of available jobs, preventing this mechanism from functioning on the level of less skilled labor. However, even in situations in which jobs are scarce, the market, when not heavily regulated, accommodates the means of the individuals within it. If there are people with money, there is someone out there interested in that money. That someone then finds a way to cheaply accommodate those who have that money, filling an economic niche. It won’t necessarily be filled with highest quality goods and services, but it would provide options for those who can’t afford higher quality goods and services.
  152. Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 6:58 pm
    (cont) As was pointed out earlier, mills and sweat shops only exist in developing countries. The US is a developed country. High-risk jobs simply wouldn’t be available for children. Instead, jobs that children do now, technically illegally, such as yard work, would be a legal option. And no minimum wage means more jobs, which means that the child’s parents are more likely to find work.
  153. Profile photo of BluishOrange
    BluishOrange Female 50-59
    87 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 7:49 pm
    @Angilion: "As it`s a hazard that can`t apply to you, you can make whatever guesses you like. It`s not so simple if the hazard is relevant to you."
    Good point, and I don`t deny that innocent men have been accused. Nevertheless, I don`t know of a single man in my (perhaps non-representative) circle who has been falsely accused of rape, but just about every woman I know has a rape or near-rape story to tell. I think the difference is that it`s not as hard to protect yourself from a false charge of rape as it is to protect yourself from rape - just don`t have sex with a woman you don`t know and trust, especially if she`s drunk. Protecting yourself from rape, on the other hand, requires not putting yourself in the vicinity of men you don`t know and trust - a bit tougher to pull off without putting yourself in purdah.
  154. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 9:50 pm
    I think the difference is that it`s not as hard to protect yourself from a false charge of rape as it is to protect yourself from rape - just don`t have sex with a woman you don`t know and trust, especially if she`s drunk.

    That would be useful advice if it was right, but it isn`t.

    Your advice is no more accurate than saying that you can completely protect yourself from any chance being raped by not going off at night alone with a man you don`t know and trust.

    i) People can trust people they shouldn`t trust.
    ii) People can be attacked by strangers.

    You can`t raesonably always blame the victims for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not even if they`re only men.

    It`s pretty much impossible for a man to protect himself from a false accusation of rape. Doing so would require continuous video surveillance of himself and even then many people would unthinkingly presume him guilty if he was accused, simply because he`s
  155. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 9:57 pm
    Consider this scenario, for example:

    A man is getting money from a cashpoint. A woman demands he withdraw the maximum amount and give it to her, using a threat of rape accusation as a weapon.

    I`d pay her. It`s a bigger threat than a knife. I might be able to take a knife away from her in a fight. There is no way to take a rape accusation away.

    And yes, that scenario has happened.

    False accusation of rape is an extremely effective attack with very low risk to the woman making it - it`s almost impossible to prove she`s lying and even if she is it`s not a crime in itself. So of course some women will use it as a weapon to attack a man they dislike for some reason, to ensure getting custody, for extortion...for any of the reasons one person attacks another.

    It`s also been used as an excuse for all sorts of things, as trivial as being late for work or as serious as being AWOL from the military to avoid a drugs test.
  156. Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 11:30 pm
    The assumption that the accusation of rape is equivalent to the act of rape is silly to me. I think it insults the intelligence of America that lack of evidence wouldn`t acquit you, and also that exoneration is tarnished by the event of accusation.
  157. Profile photo of NotTHATbored
    NotTHATbored Female 18-29
    1101 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 9:00 am
    @Oscola So we should treat possible rape victims, and presumably a lot of actual rape victims, as "accusers"? That language is in no more neutral then referring to the person as a "victim". So why would we remedy one biased word by replacing it with another biased word? It makes no sense.

    Show me one person who got put in jail wrongly because of the wording in that legislation.

    The defendant gets to be presumed innocent until proven guilty, so shouldn`t the victim be presumed to be telling the truth until proven otherwise? To presume someone is a victim is not the same as presuming that the accused is guilty.

    We need to treat people like their good until proven otherwise. Rape victims should be treated like victims.
  158. Profile photo of BluishOrange
    BluishOrange Female 50-59
    87 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 7:54 pm
    As bizarre and doomed to failure as the cash machine scenario is, Angilion, I`ll take your word for it that it happened once, although, since you`re telling the story, I doubt she got away with it. I imagine the majority of false rape charges don`t stand up to scrutiny. It`s rare enough to get a conviction for real rape. I`m not saying women never lie or are never vindictive or that decent men are never, ever falsely accused of rape; but I stand by my conviction that men who genuinely like women and treat them with real respect have little reason to live in fear of a charge of false rape. They also don`t go around seemingly obsessed with how rotten to the core women are. There are plenty of such men in the world, and even a good few on IAB. You`re just not one of them.

Leave a Reply