Canadian Healthcare System Not Acting Like Canada

Submitted by: Gerry1of1 6 years ago in
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/02/24/canada.health.dispute/

Canada wants to kill baby in coma--parents fight it
There are 71 comments:
Male 10,440
This thread is dead, but I`d like to toss this in...
[quote] I suggest you grow a pair of balls and read what I have to say with an open mind. Then: a)realize how correct I am or b)disagree with little things called FACTS! [/quote] All hail the mighty retarded 5Cats! He is always correct because he is always correct!
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Male 3,076
dude sounds like he is allready dead...
but the government don`t have the right to deside if he should live or die.
I personally would let it go he`s a lost cause, and he doesn`t deserve to suffer.
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Male 15,832
[quote]Death panels? What do you think health insurance companies do? do you want democratically elected representatives making those kinds of decisions, or profiteering opportunists?[/quote]
If an insurance company denies your claim, you can sue them. If that company gets a reputation for not paying claims, they will lose all their customers to companies who do pay.

If a government death panel denies your claim, you die.
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Female 3,598
|-(
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Male 185
Death panels? What do you think health insurance companies do? do you want democratically elected representatives making those kinds of decisions, or profiteering opportunists?
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Male 15,832
[quote]Okay, Olddollie. Death panel? Really?[/quote]
Well, the Canadian Consent and Capacity Board is a "PANEL" of "GOVERNMENT" officials who are empowered to make life or "DEATH" decisions about people`s medical care, so yeah, really. I think "government death panel" describes them perfectly.
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Female 1,172
I`m going to preface this with "I may be a monster but..." I would let the poor thing go.
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Male 40,349
Thanks @bumbleBB for your thoughtful response (unlike some others, lolz!) idk why Manitoba is so messed up, the NDP promised 8 years ago they`d fix things. Nothing has changed.

Prehaps they`re still... waiting to see a specialist!
LOLOLOLO!
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Male 382
And of course the Canadian taxpayer bears the brunt of the costs to keep a vegetable alive for a few more months. Send him home and let the parents pay for the thousands of $$$ worth of equipment they need for 24/7 care. I understand the parents love , but they have to understand that brain dead is brain dead, Oh wait, he could be the next prime minister or president
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Female 3,001
i dont like reading about these stories :(
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Male 257
@oldollie dude crawl back into the cave you came from and just wait to die... you`re seriously mentally deficient.
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Female 1,112
Okay, Olddollie. Death panel? Really? From what colleagues of mine who have or are working in the states, living under the regime of insurance controlled health care is giving yourself up to a death panel. Cost of treatment not covered in your package? Trust me, it`s not often that this sort of thing sees a judge, and in this case the decision is best for everyone. The child is dying, and it`s terrible, but denying that expending resources irresponsibly is ridiculous.

5cats. There are surely long waiting times for many instances. I`ve never seen one go as long as you`ve suggested but perhaps Manitoba is falling off the bandwagon more than the rest of the country. Sorry to hear about your wait, but that`s really more of an issue of allocation of money into healthcare by the governement. Overworked and underpaid is a reality for me, but anyone I`ve ever spoken with who has worked both US and Canadian health care, say that you work there, but you come back here to have a fa
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Male 1,744
I agree with canada. I understand, you love your son, but as far as a life goes, he`s dead, so all you`re gonna end up w/ is a sack of organs that will never respond to you. Those organs could go to another baby to save a life.
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Male 650
OldOllie, I don`t know when`s the last time Americans made a right choice..
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Male 15,832
This is exactly what we`re talking about when we say "government death panel." Ask yourself, do you want these clowns to have life-or-death power over YOU?

It`s too late for the Canadians, but we Americans still have a choice.
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Male 1,815
Whenever something take place in Canada, this site marks it as "Canadian".
But anyways, like K3vin said: That baby has less going for it in the life department than a Tickle-Me-Elmo.
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Male 2,402
@axemam929
Since when did a politician in the USA really give a rat`s ass about your opinion. Mot just yours either but all of us. They all have agendas.
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Male 195
Kevin, that why we have it right in the states. In the states my opinion means more than the governments.
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Male 487
Your son is a vegetable... Yes it sucks but, you have to pull the plug.
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Male 39,603

Of all the things I`ve submitted for posting

this is probably the biggest downer.

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Male 2,402
I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.
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Male 2,402
I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person`s family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

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Male 2,402
I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon`s knife or the chemist`s drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient`s recovery.

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Male 40,349
PS: remember Obama`s promise that "insurance companies will no longer be able to reject children with pre-existing conditions" ?? I can find the video for those too dim to recall it.
FACT: the WHOLE insurance industry has now CEASED to offer seperate insuance to children. Why? Because if the do have "pre-existing conditions" it`ll cost them a fortune, and they would have to (therefor) CHARGE a fortune for ALL children`s insurance. So, naturally and Obamacare legally, they simply refuse ALL CHILDREN.
Obamacare: 1
Human beings: 0
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Male 40,349
[quote]5Cats-every time I see your conservative jargon I cringe-[/quote]
Ooo poor @canUsuck! I suggest you grow a pair of balls and read what I have to say with an open mind. Then: a)realize how correct I am or b)disagree with little things called FACTS!
Your "feelings" on an issue are moot: whineing, crying and hurling insults may work with your "liberal" friends, but not with a real man (ie: me!)
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Male 40,349
@bumbleBB I`m in Winnipeg, this is the second time I`ve seen this. The first was a little girl with a huge eye cyst, she waited 2 years to even SEE a specialist: she was 26 months old! Personally; I myself have waited 4 & 6 weeks just to see a specialist, which is about average.

[quote]If it`s so good for the Insurance Companies then why are they all fighting it?[/quote]
Um, Gerry1of1? You may not have noticed but:
#1 The insurance companies were "on the inside" during the SECRET negotiations over Obamacare (remember his promise of the "most transparent government ever? lolz!)
#2 The US States are in court fighting it: they`re the ones expected to PAY for it! The Ins Ind is laughing all the way to the bank!
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Female 855
davisboy- take it as you will.
what kind of life would this kid have?
NONE.
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Female 584
I weep for this family...I truly, truly do. :(
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Female 1,112
From what I can tell the physical functioning of the child is not compromised. The trach is neccessary because breathing is controlled by the brain which is degenerating in this case.

Organ donation is always controversial. I think the bigger issue here is resources being used irresponsibly and quality of life.
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Female 99
"Plus I`m sure he has organs that others may desperately need."

infant organ donation is a big controversial issue....it`s not as simple as you make it sound.

plus in this case, at least the lungs are defective I`m guessing. congenital heart defects are very common with any infant problems too.
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Female 4,359
whatever way you look at it, it sucks.
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Male 25,417
Awwww.....
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Male 2,229
The baby is as good as dead, and the parents can`t or won`t accept that diagnosis. Death always follows life, it is the WAY. There is no escape, only delay. It doesn`t matter wither the baby goes or stays, it will die. No one can make, help, or "save" what these parents think, they must come to accept that their child is going to die.
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Female 612
I know that the parents have to make a decision that most of us will never have to make ourselves, but really, who`s gaining by the child living on life support? He is not since he can`t enjoy life in any way, the children who could use the machines keeping him alive are not, his sibling is not.... Only the parents have anything to gain, and all that it is that they can say they didn`t allow their child to die. I get that, but now that they`ve put up a fight and shown they care, they need to let the child go and let the healing begin. As others have mentioned, he is using space that other babies could use and honestly even his organs could probably save another kid`s life. It might hurt his parents to acknowledge this, but letting him go is the best way to give him a legacy in this world.
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Female 1,589
Let the child go in peace in the hospital. It may be strange with all the machines and tubes, but there will be less pain.
I understand that the parents want the child to live, but they have to remember that they are taking the place of another child who may have a chance to live. Plus I`m sure he has organs that others may desperately need.
I wonder if they have tried Sick Kids Hospital in Toronto? They are known for helping kids in ways other hospitals couldn`t.
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Male 808
5Cats-every time I see your conservative jargon I cringe-Is it the most perfect system in the world we have, NO, does it discriminate out the people that can`t afford it, NO, will it be there when you or someone in your family needs it, you bet-do us Canadians a favour and just move to the States
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Male 39,603
[quote] WHO do you think is providing the Insurance? The govt? NO! By LAW you`ll have to buy insurance from... the Insurance Companies! And who will regulate them? not the govt! The Insurance Industry will! [/quote]

If it`s so good for the Insurance Companies then why are they all fighting it?
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Female 1,112
...responsibilty.

This is a very sad case. Extremely sad. My heart goes out to the parents. That doesn`t mean that the desperation of their situation is leading them to make the best decisions.
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Male 10,855
I know it`s hard for them, but I hope they stay true to their word. It`s just not worth tying up resources just to keep a person, who barely has any chance, alive.

Makes me want to fill out an advanced directory myself.
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Female 1,112
Gary, You should go back and read what I have said. They are not disallowing the family from having the child die at home. Actually from what I can tell letting the child die at home is really just a desperate attempt by the parents to have procedure done that they think will prolong this childs lif until brain activity returns, which it will not. As I said before a trach does not simply mean the child will go home. It means that the childs breathing will be controlled by a machine, and once you provide mechanical breathing and tube feeding the child can likely live indefinitely. This will not be a human, it will be a machine. As the only person commenting on this post who has actually cared for someone in this condition, I can say that family members unable to cope with the loss will refuse to "lose" their child even if it`s the physical state of being. There are many people we can keep alive for the sake of keeping them alive, but that is neither compassion or social re
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Female 16
Wow, ok I live in London and have followed this story, and its being misrepresented by alot, and those trying to use this as proof of our crappy system don`t know a damn thing. Yes it has flaws but this isn`t one. The hospitals argument is that there is no way the child will live, which is sadly true. The family now wants to take the baby home to die there but the hospital doesn`t want to do it since,
1) while at the hospital they can unhook him from the machines and keep him comfortable or at lease sedated when he passes so the child feels no discomfort.
2) at home the baby may live a couple weeks at most, then die choking and gasping in pain and suffering, then have to go back to the hospital morgue anyways.
3) even the hospital in michigan and everywhere else has agreed with our doctors.

If you don`t truly understand the story, shut the hell up
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Male 946
I truly hope no one here ever has to know the agony of what these parents are going through. That said, at what point does a hospital say "The hell with this. We should let this kid die at home."?
Goddammit, this place is making a value judgement by placing a value on a childs life and proving their institution has NO values...and all because of socialized medicine. Is it too much to ask to show some compassion and let these parents have some private, family time with their child and let him die at home instead of some clinical setting. I know we`re not perfect in America but when my family chose "at home" hospice care, dignity was finally back in the right hands. But most importantly, the choice was ours to make, not the hospitals.
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Female 1,112
Oh and cats. I`m not sure how things are on your end of the country, but my neice recieved a procedure to correct her duct within the first year of her life. Conversely, my nephew who is an american citizen had to have a procedure to extract an undecended testicle from his abdominal cavity. He had the procedure at 1 year due to insurance and other speed blocks in the US. 1 year may not seem like a lot, but to put it in perspective, in Canada that procedure is performed at 6 months to prevent potential sterility that can occur.

The Canadian health care system has issues. I`m not disputing that.
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Female 1,112
At that point, the concern becomes constant and high risk for respiratory infection, aspiration, and site infection. The procedure to clean and maintain a trach is a sterile technique, and done improperly can directly introduce bacteria into the lungs. If this is not going to be beneficial for the childs quality of life, which it certainly seems it would not, it would be irresposible to provide this prcedure simply because the family wants it.

The medical community is anything but prophetic. A sudden change in a childs health can quickly turn a stable and recovering child into a terminally ill one. It is through no fault of the institution. They simply do not have the ability to predict the future of a childs health.

I totally agree with the decisions made by the Canadian health care system. There is absolutely no reason to believe that relocation or uneccessary procedures to prolong life would improve the quality of life.
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Male 40,349
Oh, about the article: idk why the doctors would even want to do a trechiotomy, just send the child home to die with it`s family.
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Male 40,349
[quote]Your days of allowing insurance companies to ruin everything has run it`s course.[/quote]
@madest FAILS again!
WHO do you think is providing the Insurance? The govt? NO! By LAW you`ll have to buy insurance from... the Insurance Companies! And who will regulate them? not the govt! The Insurance Industry will!
But don`t let facts stand in your way @madest, please continue telling us how much better things will be in 3 years - which is when Obamacare actually starts (but you`re paying for it already, eh?)
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Female 1,112
K. Canadian nurse. Work a trach unit. Let me set you folks up. I`m not totally up to speed on the nature of what this neuro-degenerative disease is, or what the extent of the childs progression is, but I can tell you this.

People in persistive vegetative states often exhibit what people who are not medically informed may mistake to be signs of brain activity, which are actually just reflexes and therefor actually autonomic responses to stimuli. It is natural that a parent not wanting to see their child die would desperately cling to this as evidence that the child has a fighting chance, however, it is likely not so.

The creation of tracheotomy is not a cheap or simple procedure. The maintenance of a trach in a well established site is not for the faint of heart, especially in an infant. This child would not simplly recieve a trach and go home. He would likely spend months in ICU, until the trach was established enough for homecare.....
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Male 40,349
vv I ALWAYS say the USA system is FAR better than Canada`s. idk who`d be stupid enought to think otherwise. Oh yeah! Obama is!

There`s a little girl in my daycare getting her leaky eye operated on next month. 3 YEARS and 10 MONTHS after her parents started trying to get it fixed. It`s a very simple thing, won`t even take a half-hour, but they had to wait almost 4 years in Canada! When her daddy was a baby in Japan, he had the same thing; fixed in 2 weeks.
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Male 39,603

ScubaGuy humbles me..... well put! Good Slam!
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Male 7,378
[quote].....can`t wait for the day U.S. unionised drs. and nurses walk out on strike under obamacare.......[/quote]
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Really? You look forward to that day? Look old man, you`re on your last mile. Your days of allowing insurance companies to ruin everything has run it`s course. Time for them to die as well.
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Male 10,440
Remember earlier this week - that stupid article on cell phone radiation? It tore itself apart in the first third.

Same deal here:
[quote]transfer to our facility will not provide him or the family any benefit[/quote]
Well then why would you do it? It looks like the kid is doomed. Why prolong the suffering? You blame Canada for doctors advising to remove life support... those resources could be used instead to save other people who have some chance. This is why your medical system is so inefficient and costs so much America, and also why this article is bullsh*t.

So, again, do I blame the article, the author or CNN? Well... different article, different author... That`s strike two CNN.
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Male 532
Since so many of you Canadians are always saying how crappy America is, I think you should keep him there and let him die a fine Canadian death.
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Female 2,761
The parents should be able to make the decisions. If they want to bring the baby home to die then the doctors should do the treac and let them take him home. Just my opinion, not saying it`s right, but I don`t think it`s wrong either.
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Male 2,579
Let nature takes its course people f|_|ckin A
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Male 260
sounds like it`s about time for the parents to let their baby go, he`s not exactly living now anyway
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Male 1,929
TLDR version: Hospital decides that there`s no point keeping brain-dead baby alive. Parents apply for transfer to US to keep brain-dead baby alive, but the receiving hospital agrees that there`s no point. Parents want a definitive decision to confirm that the hospitals have a point. If they do, they want to take the brain-dead baby home and look after it themselves until they can`t keep it alive anymore.

IMO: So long as they foot the bill for homecare, they can do that they like; including spending thousands delaying the inevitable. Poor sods.
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Male 2,033
"Hospital objects to the trachiotomy because it`s risky but they want to just let it die anyway...

um.....

Stupid Canada`

The point of the tracheotomy is to let the parents take the baby home so it can DIE.

So you are saying that it makes sense to tie up a surgery room, some skilled surgeons and nurses as well as vital medical machinery and medicines in order to kill a baby?

And Canada is stupid?

I think your speedo is cutting off bloodflow today Gerry.

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Male 54
@Gerry1of1 from your profile: Average guy. Very clever on some things and utterly daft about others.

I`m guessing "daft" in this case.
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Male 132
"I live in London, Ontario, where this baby currently resides in Victoria Hospital.

Facts:
1- this baby is already brain dead being kept alive by a breathing machine.
2- the parents of this child acknowledge nothing can be done to save him. They want to transport him from the hospital to their home in Windsor where he can die at home.
3 - doctors are fighting this for the child`s interest as performing the trachiotomy necessary to get him home alive would be risky and would definitely not improve anything.
4- removing life support for a terminally ill person is not the same as KILLING!

get yer facts straight."

Agreed.
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Female 245
"it`s only 13 months old- it`s not like they`re too attached to it or anything. Sheesh. "
Apparently they are.
STFU.
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Male 39,603
Hospital objects to the trachiotomy because it`s risky but they want to just let it die anyway...

um.....

Stupid Canada
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Male 10,338
"Correct me if I`m wrong but aren`t people pressured into allowing their relative`s life support machines to be switched off in the USA all the time?"

Nope.

Also, this isn`t Canada acting different. This is Canada acting like they have socialized medicine.
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Male 31
if it`s not viable, abort it...oh wait...
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Male 54
I live in London, Ontario, where this baby currently resides in Victoria Hospital.

Facts:
1- this baby is already brain dead being kept alive by a breathing machine.
2- the parents of this child acknowledge nothing can be done to save him. They want to transport him from the hospital to their home in Windsor where he can die at home.
3 - doctors are fighting this for the child`s interest as performing the trachiotomy necessary to get him home alive would be risky and would definitely not improve anything.
4- removing life support for a terminally ill person is not the same as KILLING!

get yer facts straight.
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Male 587
@fnkychkn - I sure hope you are being sarcastic with that remark, because you really come across as being a real winner there.

I thank God every day for my healthy family.
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Female 3,696
=( This is terribly sad, but it`s not black and white-
Really, what kind of quality of life is this little boy going to have?

No one has the right to force them to pull the plug on their baby, but the parent`s really need to look at themselves, and their situation and ask themselves "Is what we`re doing really helping him?"
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Male 8
That is not the full story. The kid is going to die anyways. The parents want the docs to preform a treac on the kid so that they can bring him home to die there.
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Male 4,680
Correct me if I`m wrong but aren`t people pressured into allowing their relative`s life support machines to be switched off in the USA all the time?
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Female 855
it`s only 13 months old- it`s not like they`re too attached to it or anything. Sheesh.
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Male 31
.....can`t wait for the day U.S. unionised drs. and nurses walk out on strike under obamacare.......
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Male 39,603
Link: Canadian Healthcare System Not Acting Like Canada [Rate Link] - Canada wants to kill baby in coma--parents fight it
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