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Date: 02/22/11 09:15 AM

118 Responses to Allen West Takes Questions From CAIR

  1. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 9:16 am
    Link: Allen West Takes Questions From CAIR - ``Dont try and blow sunshine up my butt!``
  2. Profile photo of KwameAreeva
    KwameAreeva Male 70 & Over
    31 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 9:23 am
    I can only hope this hero runs for president!!!
  3. Profile photo of 83nu
    83nu Male 40-49
    89 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 9:42 am
    Cair is an unidicted co-conspirator in the holy land case. They are terrorists.
  4. Profile photo of DJDoubleb
    DJDoubleb Male 30-39
    382 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 9:50 am
    Depending on his stance on other issues, I might would like to vote for this man.
  5. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31783 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 10:34 am
    Big baby waving his book around! He got some edumicating all right!
  6. Profile photo of duffytoler
    duffytoler Male 40-49
    5196 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 11:11 am
    Allen West for the win.
  7. Profile photo of Oldfrt
    Oldfrt Male 50-59
    747 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 11:29 am
    I think it`s funny when the guy say`s that he`s ashamed to hear a congressman attack Islam. Seems like he`s expecting everyone to assume that the worst possible thing anyone could do is offend a group of people. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from offense. I really hope Allen West continues his political rise. I love straight talkers.
  8. Profile photo of HalfSandwich
    HalfSandwich Male 18-29
    145 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 11:30 am
    I think if I were a liberal my greatest fear would be seeing Obama debate someone like this in the next election. They are lucky that the republicans will put up someone stupid again. Still, how cool would that be.
  9. Profile photo of Schr0dinger
    Schr0dinger Male 50-59
    359 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 11:57 am
    Allen West is cool.
  10. Profile photo of Volsunga
    Volsunga Male 18-29
    1548 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 12:27 pm
    based solely on this video, I like this Allen West character. While his knowledge of Islam isn`t completely accurate, it certainly isn`t ignorant. He knows what he is talking about and isn`t afraid to say it.
  11. Profile photo of Amurika
    Amurika Male 30-39
    282 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 1:09 pm
    like good little robots.

    ;-/
  12. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 2:17 pm
    Meh, the uninformed cheering for poor evidence is not news.

    "The quran talks of..."
    "Where?"
    *Congressman Fails*

    *Dude keeps asking*
    *Congressman Cites a list of battles*

    For example, the second he mentions: The battle of the trench? Think about that for a second.

    Are you suggesting Mohammed built a trench around an enemy city and fought them, or do you think the trench was built around his own city to defend against invading armies?

    The only reason he`s asking not to be blown is that so many people in that room (and now this) are already doing it.


    If you think I`m wrong, there`s a simple logical test:

    Which verse did he cite?
  13. Profile photo of SunnyNphilly
    SunnyNphilly Male 18-29
    645 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 2:17 pm
    cant hear over the applause
  14. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25408 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 2:20 pm
    cool
  15. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 2:26 pm
    Oops, almost forgot, my weekly installment of using Crakr`s arguments against himself.

    Step one, select revered text and claim:
    The US constitution says to kill people who aren`t white.

    Step two: Be asked to verify, and fail to do so.
    Erm.... splutter...

    Step three: List a series of battles.
    Link.

    Step four: Have Crakr `blow sunshine up my butt`.
    I`ll be waiting to be blown. ;)
  16. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 3:47 pm
    Baalthazaq: I knew this would get your panties in a bunch.

    This is Allen West, Not Me. So if you wish to refute him so be it, but don`t attribute his comments to me.

    Also I`ve cited many koran verses here at IAB and you`ve tried your best to sweep those under the rug.

    Problem is a lot of islamists follow those verses to the letter and expect every muslim, including you, to spread sharia worldwide. Then, and only then, will there be the `peace` according to the koran.

    The prophet I follow, Never killed anyone, never declared a war, never married a 6 year old, never called for stoning anyone, and he will be the one that brings peace, He`s Jesus Christ.
  17. Profile photo of The_Texican
    The_Texican Male 18-29
    24 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 4:00 pm
    You`re looking at the next President of the United States.
  18. Profile photo of MrTwidget
    MrTwidget Male 30-39
    795 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 4:19 pm
    Isn`t it about time to abolish all religion?
  19. Profile photo of ElMustache
    ElMustache Male 18-29
    1625 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 4:22 pm
    The bible also commands to kill the enemys of God. Prime example, (Book of joshua)
  20. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 4:27 pm
    and expect every muslim, including you, to spread sharia worldwide

    They don`t and they won`t.

    never married a 6 year old

    This "detail",and some others, were penned after generations of Oral repetition. One and a half centuries to be precise. You know how destructive/deleterious that is to details right?
  21. Profile photo of trippyhippy9
    trippyhippy9 Male 18-29
    559 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 4:35 pm
    The bible is every bit as violent as the koran. The only difference is, the bible starts violently, has peace in the middle then ends violently. The koran starts Peacefully and ends violently.

    Not really that big of a difference.

    World peace will come when ignorant people realize that god an religion are nothing more than a man made concept that does not exist in the real world.
  22. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 4:54 pm
    trippyhippy9: You`re forgetting that the `ending violently` part of the bible `Revelations` is future prophecy right ?

    ElMustache: Joshua is Jewish history, It`s the story of the defeat of the Canaanites and yes God told the Hebrews to conquer what is now known as Israel/Palestine. Neither Christians or Jews read Joshua as justification to kill people.
  23. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 5:09 pm
    [quote">Neither Christians or Jews read Joshua as justification to kill people.[/quote">

    They don`t need it either apparently.
  24. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 5:10 pm
    The first link broke:

    Linky
  25. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 5:13 pm
    Cajun: Most all muslim clerics and imams have confirmed the story of mohammed`s marriage to aisha, she is known as his favorite wife and is central to his story and the controversy between the sunnis and shias. It was her age that guaranteed her virginity and thus suitability as mohammed`s wife.

    Now if you are disputing that, then you would in essence be questioning the whole legitimacy of the koran.
  26. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 5:18 pm
    Ooh believe or it or not al-Qaeda cites Sayyid Qutb for their reasoning, NOT the Qu`ran.
  27. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 5:22 pm
    Cajun: So you point out some of the `Wolves in sheep`s clothing` that Jesus warns about.

    Matthew, 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep`s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    Christians are not to follow `prophets` blindly, nor take revenge.
  28. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 5:23 pm
    [quote">Now if you are disputing that, then you would in essence be questioning the whole legitimacy of the koran.[/quote">

    NO WAI!!! (scroll on down to the very bottom there).
  29. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 5:27 pm
    So:

    Rick Warren, Pat Robertson, and some Mercedes-owning megachurch pastors.

    Are they NOT "Wolves in Sheep`s clothing" as you say?
  30. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 5:32 pm
    Matthew, 7:15

    Woop-dee-doo

    The Qu`ran has an equivalent:

    9.128: Now hath come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful.

    9.129: But if they turn back, say: Allah is sufficient for me, there is no god but He; on Him do I rely, and He is the Lord of mighty power.
  31. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 5:33 pm
    Ergo:

    Louis Ferrakahn, Osama bin Laden, Sayyid Qutb are ALL false prohpets.
  32. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 5:40 pm
    Cajun: I have some serious problems with Pat Robertson`s statements and positions on certain issues. As for Rick Warren, I don`t know much about him except he has talked with Obama a few times.

    I have skepticism for most all televangelists, most seem to be about getting donations and selling books/cds/videos instead of saving souls.
  33. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 5:54 pm
    I have skepticism for most all televangelists, most seem to be about getting donations and selling books/cds/videos instead of saving souls.


    That`s why it`s a "no true scotsman" fallacy Crakr. If it weren`t statistics would be a VERY messy sceince. You`re Bible quote doesn`t even dismiss the fallacy. So rather than saying "they`re not" a more honest answer would be "it`s rather abhorrent that they would do such things in the name of Christianity" (i.e. crusades). Adding "they shouldn`t call themselves `Christians`" would be completely fair. I think it`s fair to say that Baalthazaaq is disgusted at how Osama bin Laden calls himself Muslim.
  34. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 5:56 pm
    Cajun: What, Am I supposed to start a poll now ?

    As a guess, I`d have to say that most Christians are skeptical of most televangelists. There are maybe a few that seem sincere. But that`s a matter of opinion.

    Personally, I`ve always liked Billy Graham.
  35. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 6:01 pm
    Cajun: That`s why it`s a "no true scotsman" fallacy

    I never said they shouldn`t call themselves `Christians. One can be Christian and have differences of opinion about the bible. I would never call a catholic or mormon a non-Christian just because they hold different beliefs.
  36. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 6:17 pm
    One can be Christian and have differences of opinion about the bible.

    Then don`t you think David Koresh should not have or Martin Ssempa should not call themselves "Christian"? Granted I don`t like it when people are judged based on what "the holy literature says" as (you`ve repeatedly demonstrated) it is a matter of interpretation and then there`s following it.

    Demonstrably Baalthazaaq enjoys D&D as much as many Americans would, despite a number of imams/scholars saying enough to the effect that everything up to Japanese Anime would be banned in such countries. Last I checked 70% of Turks drink alcohol (a big no-no I`ve heard), and a lot of Muslim women (except Saudi Arabia) do NOT hide their face.
  37. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 6:19 pm
    a lot?

    I should say OVERWHELMING MAJORITY.
  38. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 6:52 pm
    Heh.

    So what`s your argument crakr. You posted a meaningless video where a man says no valid point.

    I point this out, and now you disown the video? Why post it? He did nothing except fail to answer a question while being cheered.

    Have you conceded that the argument he presented was a steaming pile of poo?

    You also, as I have repeatedly demonstrated, used a single source (Urwa, your source is Urwa) for the 6 year old remark, I refuted it previously.

    My guess is you are attempting an Ad infinitum argument. Do you have any alternative source apart from Urwa, whose testimony is discredited? I do.

    For now, I`ll accept your concession for Allen West`s argument being indefensible.
  39. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 7:03 pm
    Also, incidentally:
    [quote">Now if you are disputing that, then you would in essence be questioning the whole legitimacy of the koran.[/quote">

    You`d be wrong there Crakr, as the quote you`re talking about (about Aisha being married at the age of 6) isn`t in the Quran.

    Somehow you manage to know insanely obscure things like Taqiyya (which you still had to intentionally mistranslate to suit you), yet don`t seem to be able to grasp basic tenets of the faith.

    Seriously, if someone came to you talking about the horrors of bald men summoning killer bears, but couldn`t tell you who Jesus was, isn`t it obvious they`re getting all their info from a hate site, and are not truly educated?

    That`s you.
  40. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31783 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 7:49 pm
    @Baalth? You`re really losing it:
    Item #1: The Koran doesn`t "say in it" to attack America, as the guy was asking, since it was written BEFORE 1492, eh? DUH!
    Item #2 Battle Of The Trench I knew about this from my readings, how could YOU NOT KNOW this? It`s historical fact dude!
    Item #3: attacking an IAB poster for something said on a video? That`s REALLY LOW dude.

    FYI: The battle of the trench: Mohamed successfully defended Medina against a VERY large army by digging a HUGE trench. Military people in 627AD had never seen this tactic before, and had no answer. A brilliant victory! Mohamed then slaughtered ALL 3000 Jews in Medina, every man, woman, child & baby.
  41. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 7:50 pm
    Baalthazaq: Boy, Once you declare something irrelevant you sure presume everyone else must as well. That`s mighty presumptuous of you.

    I did not `disown` the video, You automatically made the assumption that his words are mine. I can not claim his words as mine, that would be plagiarism then wouldn`t it ?

    Now having said all that, Allen West correctly and intelligently argued the question. The question was stupid to begin with, America did not even exist when the koran was written and there are passages about killing infidels.

    The `steaming pile of poo` is your constant `sweeping under the rug` of those passages.
  42. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31783 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 7:51 pm
    Step four: Have Crakr `blow sunshine up my butt`.
    I`ll be waiting to be blown. ;)
    There`s something blocking your butt @Baalth. It`s your HEAD. And neck, and at least one shoulder too...
  43. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 7:53 pm
    "You`d be wrong there Crakr, as the quote you`re talking about (about Aisha being married at the age of 6) isn`t in the Quran."

    According to the traditional sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when she was engaged to Muhammad and nine when the marriage took place.

    According to 3 sources at wikipedia.

    As for your comment about Elisha `summoning bears`, Elisha did NOT summon the bears, He asked God for help. God made the bears appear, not Elisha.
  44. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31783 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 8:08 pm
    2Kings 2.24 "...he cursed them in the name of Allah. And two she-bears..."
    See? Allah did it! Get your facts straight @Baalthy or GTFO!
  45. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 8:22 pm
    Elisha did NOT summon the bears,

    ...and what exactly got Elisha so irked as to ask God to summon the bears? Oh right some kids were poking fun at him.

    According to 3 sources at wikipedia.

    Can you name even one of those sources?

  46. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 8:23 pm
    Now does that passage say anything about Christians?

    Not a lot.
  47. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 8:25 pm
    Cajun: They are labeled 2,4,5 there. Are you telling me you can`t look them up for yourself ?
  48. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 8:26 pm
    The point remains: Moderate Muslims outnumber radical members by a LANDSLIDE!!!
  49. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 8:27 pm
    Crakr.

    So is one of those sources the Quran, or not? (The answer, before you argue otherwise, is no, stop being deceptive).

    All three sources in the wikipedia article cite the same source as their source of information. Urwa. We`ve done this dance before, and you had No reply.

    It doesn`t matter if you have 1 person, or 1000 people saying "Urwa said", if Urwa has been demonstrated to be unreliable.

    That is still your singular source. Urwa.

    5 Cats:
    Your source doesn`t even support your assertion, ergo your reading, does not amount to even reading your own links.

    We`ve done this dance bef
  50. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 8:30 pm
    They are labeled 2,4,5 there. Are you telling me you can`t look them up for yourself ?

    Again you fail on that front, who are they citing? I bet you dollars to donuts that they`re citing Urwa.
  51. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 8:33 pm
    Incase you`ve forgotten, my response was that all major sources say the leaders of the tribe (not all of Medina) were killed for treason after an invasion.

    The rest were exiled.

    You then repeated the false claim that the babies were killed. You lied directly after being shown your statements were false.

    Crakr:
    P.S. You`re being deceptive when you state the importance of Aisha`s age. The reason for the BIAS in Aisha`s age was that making her younger was politically convenient at the time.

    This in no way calls into question the Quran (which you asserted falsely), but it does call into question the singular source you`re still using (no matter how many times it is called bullpoo, *even within the sources you`re using*).
  52. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 8:35 pm
    Baalthazaq: Are you telling me that you own all 3 of those books from those three authors and have researched all their sources as well ?

    Wow, That`s mighty quick work there, unless of course you are assuming (and we all know how bad you are at assuming things) they all came from the same source.

    So now it`s upon you, YOU show me, in detail, where each of those 3 authors sourced their material and don`t just say "Urwa" again, I want to see links or actual sources from those three books.
  53. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 8:39 pm
    I`m in the unfortunate position of having a Mom who just bought a scanner, and has raided the loft for baby photos that she wants me to upload and tag on facebook.


    So I may be gone for some time... I`ve been sent 30 emails of photos.

    I`ll look in later to see if you`ve actually posted something new.
  54. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 8:40 pm
    Will look for excerpts on all 3 books.
  55. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 8:41 pm
    See that Crakr, you offered a logical challenge and I accepted. See how it works?

    Now, if you could do the same any time I challenge you to a simple way of disproving me I`d ascribe some credibility to you.
  56. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 8:50 pm
    Baalthazaq: Actually the fact that you haven`t actually looked up their sources, Yet claimed they all used the same sigular source "Urwa", without actually knowing that as a fact, says a lot already.

  57. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 9:47 pm
    Source 5:
    Karen Armstrong claims her source is the Tabari hadith. Remember that? That`s the one you quoted. So your new source at wiki, is still your old source, just one further step removed.

    Courtesy of our good friend Urwa.

    Otherwise, Karen Armstrong does not actually say that she was 9, and is in fact often criticized by sites you frequent (like Spencer at Jihadwatch) for not doing so.

    One down. Follow-ups as soon as I find the relevant portions. Denise`s book is not available on the kindle unless I`ve screwed up, so I`ll look at finding it in other ways.

    The online encyclopedia I might just have to shell out for if I can`t get access any other way.

    P.S. The reason I said they`d all be sourced back to Urwa, is that there just aren`t other sources that say so. However, entirely fair to need to verify it (though you didn`t when presenting the sources as accurate and separate).
  58. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 9:49 pm
    Quick question, do you have any plans to drop this if all 3 turn out to come back to the same source, or will we continue coming back to it?

    How much evidence to the contrary is this going to take?

    I want a concrete target here.
  59. Profile photo of whipplefunk
    whipplefunk Male 30-39
    969 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 10:29 pm
    Crakr is a level 80 Troll
  60. Profile photo of hi2pi
    hi2pi Male 30-39
    736 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 10:43 pm
    that room was little better than a mob. shameful mob.
  61. Profile photo of jpfu220
    jpfu220 Male 18-29
    65 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 10:59 pm
    i`m coming into this a little late...

    so i have seen a bunch in the past few weeks the 2 kings "bear verse" appear a few times and i feel this needs to be explained. The "youths in question" were not making fun of his lack of hair. They said "Go on up you bald head" this means "Go on up to heaven just like your predecessor did old man"....basically go die. This is a much more serious offense, especially in that time.

    Point #2: Another thing i have seen again and again ont his site is the idea that Christians are to follow all of the old testament laws.

    FALSE! The laws of the old testament are JEWISH LAWS! The ones that Christians need to adhere to are ones repeated in both the old AND new testaments.

    I know this had nothing to do with this video but i felt i needed to post. :) have a good one guys/gals!
  62. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 11:01 pm
    @Baalthazaq

    The online encyclopedia cites Sahih al-Bukhari.
  63. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 22, 2011 at 11:10 pm
    Sahih al-Bukhari - These prophetic traditions, or hadith, were collected by the Persian Muslim scholar Muhammad ibn Ismail al-Bukhari, after being transmitted orally for generations. Sunni Muslims view this as their most trusted collection of hadith and it is considered the most authentic book after the Qur`an.

  64. Profile photo of BRKNVLTR
    BRKNVLTR Male 40-49
    377 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 2:56 am
    KER SMAK!! The bitch slap heard around the world!
  65. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31783 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 5:29 am
    You then repeated the false claim that the babies were killed.
    Nice try @Baalth, but that`s your opinion, eh? Not a fact for me. Mohamed slaughtered the parents and sent the babies into exile? Woah, way better than killing them (sarc!).

    You STILL have never addressed his 10 (ten) wives that he kept, he married a lot more! Or his concubines (slave women he had sex with) or his many mistresses. Nice job, being teh Prophet!

    And Allen West`s opening point is stll valid: SOME Muslims think it`s OK`d by Allah to attack western ciilians (in the name of Islam, eh?). Waving a Koran and saying "where does it say that" is trolling, and baby-troll got teh smack-down he richly deserved.

    One other thing @Baalth: On one hand you say "that comes from oral tradition and isn`t reliable" YET you also say "it`s in the book, and is 100% true!" I`m NOT saying you`re a hypocrite, just pointing out your DUAL standard here...
  66. Profile photo of SvampeBob
    SvampeBob Male 18-29
    3076 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 9:28 am
    TN*;DW
    *noisy
  67. Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 10:05 am
    He still was unable to cite anything from the Koran.

    Most of you guys defending this dude guffawed and chuckled when the "Fox Lies!" guy was put on the spot and couldn`t give a specific answer.

    The same thing is happening in this video-dude couldn`t answer the question; the difference? He`s a politician and weaseled his way out of the question.


    If you`re going to have an opinion- you must have something to back it up besides baseless accusations and silver tongued slithering. Otherwise you only wind up making yourself look like a fool.

    Had this been a real debate he Allen would have lost points, not won them, based on his answer.
  68. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 10:36 am
    DickenMcHunt: Mr. West did in fact cite things from the koran, perhaps you didn`t hear them over the excited people cheering for him.
  69. Profile photo of duffytoler
    duffytoler Male 40-49
    5196 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 11:34 am
    Baalthazaq: Are you pretending the "Sword Verses" don`t exist?
  70. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 12:49 pm
    Crakr: I have explained to you several times how Hadith work, and how their sources work. I`ve already linked the thread in which I do so for the second time.

    Do you, or do you not understand?

    I want to know if you have failed to grasp a basic concept after having it explained 3 times.

    5 Cats: Your own goddamn source contradicts the statements you made attributing your facts to the source.

    Mine is a well educated opinion, yours is an outright falsehood unsupported by the sources you cite.

    That *some* of any group advocate anything, is never a valid point, especially as *some* Christians/Atheists/Plumbers can be said to do the same thing.
  71. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 12:57 pm
    As for sources, I`ll state again.

    Bukhari is a good author.
    He wrote a book of quotes, each one with a narrator, and each one of those narrators with a source.

    Quote from the last time we argued:

    "Hadith are organized by 3 sources EACH. We`ve been through this before. Pay attention this time.

    You have the scholar. The source. The originator.
    You have quoted many scholars (Tabari, Bukhari, Muslim, etc), who have used a single source (Urwa), of an originator (Aisha)."

    In other words, I would assume that the quote from Bukhari, is the same quote you used from the book of Bukhari the last time, which is attributed to Urwa.

    Cajun: Can you tell me the actual quote to confirm that they`re the same line? (Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64/65 are the ones attributed to Urwa).
  72. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 1:07 pm
    And while we`re on the topic of throwing out factoids. Bukhari is, as Crakr says, a good author (the best actually).

    Hisham Urwa on the other hand, went senile before he moved to Iraq, and as such any info from him beyond that date (unless corroborated by earlier statements) is often ignored.

    This verse being the exception, simply because, as Crakr himself states, it was politically advantageous to do so.

    He has horrifically confused "politically advantageous position" with "correct position" somehow.
  73. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 1:57 pm
    Can you tell me the actual quote to confirm that they`re the same line? (Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64/65 are the ones attributed to Urwa).

    I found those two and number 88 they all seem to repeat each other:

    Number 88:
    Narrated `Ursa:

    The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with `Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
  74. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 3:14 pm
    Baalthazaq: All I know is that you are keen on obfuscating passages deemed by modern eyes to be extreme, when at the time they were not seen to be in the least `extreme`.

    You`re contradicting yourself by both saying that Bukhari is `the best (author) actually` and then turn around and say his source was in error.

    I`m also pretty sure that most muslims do not see this the same as you do, as I`ve seen several clerics and imams discuss issues such as child marriage, killing infidels, and exterminating the Jews on MEMRI TV.
  75. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31783 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 3:47 pm
    the statements you made attributing your facts to the source.
    Nooo, I said "in my reading" NOT "I read it on Wiki". It seemed like you had no idea what that battle was about, so I linked Wiki for you. I READ a different source, whose reasearch had told a different `ending` than Wiki did.
    In the source I READ (but cannot cite because it was years ago) the Jews were treasonous indeed, and Mohamed killed the leaders AND EACH AND EVERY OTHER JEW IN MEDINA. Including babies in their mother`s arms.
    It`s not that difficult to understand @Baalth, is it?

    SO: no mention of his 10 wives? No discussion of how you (Baalth) cite Holy Text as 100% CORRECT for your arguements (only) and "subject to interpritation" for the arguements of others? NO thoughts on that? Because you`ve done it HERE repeatedly, and almost every time this sort of things come up. ESPECIALLY against @Crackr.

  76. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31783 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 3:54 pm
    Holy Text, or commentary, as @Crackr points out. You call the same dude`s work "the best" and also say his sources were wrong.
    Sure YOU can disagree on Bukari`s opinion on one subject, and agree with another. BUT to put someone else down for citing him as an expert is STUPID. M-kay?
  77. Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 4:31 pm
    "Mr. West did in fact cite things from the koran, perhaps you didn`t hear them over the excited people cheering for him. "

    I listened to it again and I still heard nothing cited from the Koran.

    You must be right.
  78. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 5:59 pm
    no mention of his 10 wives

    What does nine other wives have to do with this discussion?
  79. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 6:05 pm
    DickenMcHunt: He cites passages from sura, I didn`t pick on the exact numbers of the passages because of the crowd, but I clearly heard the word sura several times.

    If you didn`t know sura is a chapter in the koran.
  80. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 6:09 pm
    as I`ve seen several clerics and imams discuss issues such as child marriage, killing infidels, and exterminating the Jews on MEMRI TV

    The way you do not mention names is very troubling Crakr. Perhaps you have done a lot of research yourself, or you seem rather insistent on castigating a huge portion of the world. Either way it`s not civil at all, and I know Islam in general does not deserve the bad press it gets. Members within it on the other hand do.
  81. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 6:29 pm
    Cajun: Perhaps you believe sharia law is pleasant to live under, These people would disagree.

  82. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 6:38 pm
    So now we`re playing post the propaganda now are we?


    Here`s a photo of a beach in Abu Dhabi.


    Women in Iran.


    Here`s a nice little bar in Turkey.

    Your photo nonetheless is a Red Herring.


  83. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 6:49 pm
    ...and as I and Baalthazaq have said repeatedly before (and you apparently ignore) Shariah law is not interpreted or enforced uniformly across the Muslim world.

    Say here`s another beach...

    ...in Morocco. Apparently they have their OWN version of Shariah law.
  84. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 6:56 pm
    You still won`t give me names of people within the Muslim world who preach the Draconian and intolerant crap they do. Baalthazaq on the other hand gives names to various groups who have they`re own version/interpretation of Sharia law.
  85. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 7:28 pm
    Cajun: It`s not as if I bookmark those videos, and I honestly don`t remember their names, but please don`t act like they don`t exist just because I don`t know their names.

    Btw, I could probably find pleasant looking pictures of North Korea and Somalia if I tried, but that doesn`t mean they are pleasant places to live now does it ?
  86. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 7:41 pm
    don`t act like they don`t exist just because I don`t know their names.

    I`m asking YOU to identify them.

    I could probably find pleasant looking pictures of North Korea and Somalia if I tried, but that doesn`t mean they are pleasant places to live now does it ?

    Likewise, I can find unpleasant looking pictures from the USA/Japan/Hong Kong/UK, but that doesn`t mean they`re an unpleasant place to live in now does it?
  87. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 8:13 pm
    Cajun: Likewise, I can find unpleasant looking pictures from the USA/Japan/Hong Kong/UK, but that doesn`t mean they`re an unpleasant place to live in now does it?

    That depends on the locations inside those countries, I`ll admit there are places here in America that are not pleasant to live in, but it`s not because of a set of religious laws like sharia, it would be because they are economically depressed.
  88. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 8:15 pm
    but it`s not because of a set of religious laws like sharia

    Likewise, it depends on the country`s interpretation.
  89. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 8:20 pm
    Cajun: Might I suggest you look here, MEMRI TV

    Click on the `Subjects` tab and you`ll find more than enough evidence to support my assertion.
  90. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 8:28 pm
    Wow a lot to look at.

    Now the next question is how many Muslims actually believe in the crap they spew.
  91. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 8:32 pm
    Cajun: Well I don`t believe Baal does, but it`s a significant portion and certainly a majority in some muslim countries, like Palestine.
  92. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 8:38 pm
    but it`s a significant portion and certainly a majority in some muslim countries

    Now it`s a numbers game.
  93. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 10:33 pm
    Crackr:
    Are you under the impression Memri TV is a reliable source?

    It is an Israeli source, literally run by former members of the Israeli military. This is not even in dispute.

    They regularly mistranslate things like "The Jews are killing us" as "We should annihilate the Jews", they translated "I`ll draw a picture" as "I`ll shoot them".


    I tell you what though, I will accept Memri TV as an accurate source if you accept an Arab source I find as accurately portraying the USA.

    Fair?

    Also, it is in no way wrong to state that Bukhari is a good author, but of his MANY sources, not all of them are accurate.

    Bukhari (and all the other Hadith) himself states reluctance about certain sources included for completeness.
  94. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 10:44 pm
    So, so far Crakr you`ve:
    Posted a quote from Urwa. Had it disputed.
    Found several books with the Urwa quote in it, and used them as a "new source".
    Posted a wiki link with excerpts you haven`t checked, but still posted them up as new information.

    Each time you`ve moved a further step away from the original source, and you accuse ME of obfuscating?

    You have LITERALLY tried to hide your quote under further and further layers of references to the same point by the same person.

    First: Urwa, then -> Iraqi`s who studied under Urwa -> Hadiths quoting Urwa and the Iraqis -> Books quoting the Hadiths -> A wiki link quoting the books.

    While I`m busy stripping away the layers (and doing the only research into your own links), you`re busy adding them. That *is the very definition* of obfuscation.
  95. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 10:56 pm
    Also:

    *Crakr posts some pictures*
    *Cajun posts some pictures*
    Crakr: "I could probably find pleasant looking pictures of North Korea and Somalia if I tried, but that doesn`t mean they are pleasant places to live now does it?"

    No, it doesn`t. You`re right Crakr. Goddamn what a poo argument Cajun, whatever prompted you to use it?

    Oh that`s right, Crakr used it the very previous post... every single time Crakr. Your arguments are the steamiest pile of feces I have ever seen, and even you acknowledge this when they support any position that isn`t the one you`re supporting.

    It`s prejudice and hypocrisy Crakr. Plain and simple. You accept the argument because it supports your position, and when the *same argument* doesn`t support it, you show you know the argument you made was bullpoo all along.
  96. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 23, 2011 at 11:14 pm
    [quote">Goddamn what a poo argument Cajun, whatever prompted you to use it?[/quote">

    Crakr`s assertion with his photo montage was a Red Herring. I even said so in my first picture post, ...and was even demonstrated by subsequent comments.

    BTW what about Vol 7, Book 62, Number 88, who`s that attributed to?
  97. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 12:01 am
    Baalthazaq: So because it`s ran by Jews you find it unreliable, How very anti-semitic of you.

    That doesn`t change the fact that the video they record and translate is accurate and it is a trustworthy source despite your accusations.

    They regularly mistranslate things like "The Jews are killing us" as "We should annihilate the Jews", they translated "I`ll draw a picture" as "I`ll shoot them".

    That`s bullcrap, News agencies outside of Israel have their own Arabic translators and confirm translations before they air them.

    Baal: So far you stated things as fact that you hadn`t checked yourself, You layer on the bullcrap to deny things and expect people to trust you because you know we can`t read your language. Make multiple accusations of mistranslation like a broken record. And then make the accusation of prejudice when all else fails.
  98. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 12:09 am
    The fact remains if muslims not unlike you didn`t believe those texts, then why are they still following them ? Why do they continue to cut off hands, noses, and heads, as well as stone people ? What are you saying, that they are all ignorant and mislead ? Are you saying your fellow muslims brothers are going to hell because they don`t believe as you ?

    I don`t think you would say they are, because you know how dangerous expressing such an opinion can be in your part of the world.
  99. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 12:12 am
    Cajun: A `Red Herring` requires a falsehood, Are you saying those pictures aren`t real ?

    They are real, and your `Red Herring` accusation is it`s own `Red Herring`.
  100. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 6:59 am
    [quote">A `Red Herring` requires a falsehood[/quote">

    No it doesn`t it, the goal is to divert attention away from the real issue. You were saying "look at these people who`ve suffered horribly because of Sharia law", when it requires more than pictures to know what`s going on. As Baal stated it`s a crap argument.

    As Baal just pointed out it`s a false argument.

    And as far as MEMRI TV is concerned I just looked it up and is actually run by former members of the intelligence branch of the Israeli Defense Force. They`ve also been cited for numerous mistranslation scandals.
  101. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 7:05 am
    So because it`s ran by Jews you find it unreliable, How very anti-semitic of you

    That`s a hasty generalization and ad hominem in one Crakr.
  102. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 7:08 am
    because you know how dangerous expressing such an opinion can be in your part of the world


    Really man?

    If it were so dangerous he wouldn`t be a MODERATOR right now. Your entire comment FAILS so much.
  103. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 7:37 am
    Why do they continue to cut off hands, noses, and heads, as well as stone people ? What are you saying, that they are all ignorant and mislead

    Who?
  104. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 8:17 am
    Whoever made that montage you posted took the very first photo out of context.

    It was a magic trick.
  105. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 10:28 am
    Cajun, So you link to a muslim professor that claims MEMRI mistranslated his anti-semitic writings and some left-wing ideologues that insist it`s propaganda. Boy where have I heard that accusation before, Oh yeah I remember now, It`s the same accusations that the same sort of people make against Fox News and Sky News all the time.

    Well then, That made me wonder. Just how much English speaking media is mistranslated into arabic, turns out it happens quite a lot.

    Video of planes and helicopter killing taliban fighters are routinely said to be killing civilians. When weapon caches were blown up, arab media proclaimed innocent family homes were destroyed. When damage done to mosques by suicide bombers was shown, it was labeled as `American forces destroy mosque`.

    So if you are going to use the `mistranslation` accusation, Please also be aware that out right lies are being purported in arab and persian media as well.
  106. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 10:41 am
    Cajun: You need to re-read the definition of `Red Herring` it does not just mean `misdirection` it means "a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue."

    Since the photos are relevant and true, It`s not a `Red Herring`.

    Yes, The photo of the boy is some sort of stunt. But who in their right mind uses a boy like that to make money ?
  107. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 12:09 pm
    Yes, The photo of the boy is some sort of stunt. But who in their right mind uses a boy like that to make money ?

    Is it because of Sharia law? No, ergo Red Herring. Further, the issue is HOW IS IT INTERPRETED. The Taliban (noses) and Iran (hanging) have very strict interpretations of Sharia law, and in Iran it`s enforced rather arbitrarily. In conclusion, it`s a lot more complicated than what those pictures can tell you.

    Well then, That made me wonder. Just how much English speaking media is mistranslated into arabic, turns out it happens quite a lot.

    Agreed, it`s all despicable nonetheless. But if we`re to set an example then we need focus on the real sources of the problem instead of painting an entire group with the same ugly color.
  108. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 12:15 pm
    Let`s not pay attention to the liars then shall we?
  109. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 12:32 pm
    [quote">a muslim professor that claims MEMRI mistranslated his anti-semitic writings[/quote">

    Oh wow, since when is writing an article about Zionism anti-Semetic? You might as well claim that the people who wrote this article are anti-semites.
  110. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 12:35 pm
    Hey you overlooked this part:

    According to a 2005 article in Israel`s Ha`aretz, the Israeli Defense Forces plants fake stories in the Arab media, which it then translates and tries to retail to Israeli journalists. How much of MEMRI is simply an extension of such IDF operations?

    Now isn`t that an indictment from within Israel`s own borders?
  111. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 5:42 pm
    Cajun: Zionism is equated to Fascism by most muslims, they see it as an occupation of muslim land and thus evil. They use the term like a curse word, not unlike the KKK uses the n-word or the way McCarthy used the term communist.

    As for the IDF planting fake stories, That is akin to Bush planting explosive in the WTC buildings, It`s poppycock.

    If a muslim calls you a zionist he does not mean that in a good way.

    From your own Wiki link - In 1975, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution that designated Zionism as a "a form of racism and racial discrimination". The resolution was repealed in 1991. Within the context of the Arab–Israeli conflict, Zionism is viewed by critics as a system that fosters apartheid and racism.

  112. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 6:23 pm
    [quote">they see it as an occupation of muslim land and thus evil[/quote">

    Well I certainly don`t see a lot of Muslim countries itching to go to war with Israel. All I think of is Palestine. To say that an Arab who wrote a paper about Zionism with anti-Semetic undertones/leanings is a hasty generalization. As for the IDF planting stories. Here`s the article they cited in my comment.
  113. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 10:20 pm
    Cajun: Sounds not unlike what America did to influence the Germans and French in WWII. They were hired to influence Palestinian opinion, and apparently it backfired because Palestine is now controlled by Hamas. It says nothing about MEMRI or even mistranslations.

    And as I mentioned earlier, arab and persian media have smeared American troops as mass murderers, mosque defilers, and even proselytizers (AWE, SHOCK, GASP).
  114. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 10:36 pm
    Well considering that Yigal Carmon is a former colonel in Israeli intelligence and an Acting head and advisor on Arab affairs, it says a lot actually.

    If you don`t think MEMRI doesn`t spin the facts think again:

    Same article
    Nor does MEMRI feature stories about Palestinian suffering, Israeli dissenters, moderate Islamists, Christians in Arab governments or the growing nonviolent movement against the apartheid wall in the Occupied Territories, especially around Bal`in.


    Just did a search: found nothing.
  115. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    February 24, 2011 at 10:39 pm
    And as I mentioned earlier, arab and persian media have smeared American troops as mass murderers, mosque defilers, and even proselytizers

    ...yes it`s all despicable nonetheless.
  116. Profile photo of CoyoteKing
    CoyoteKing Male 18-29
    2988 posts
    February 25, 2011 at 5:43 pm
    i don`t know who allen west is but i like him. he`s not pandering to the bullpoo ignorant "patriotic" (if you can really call them that) americans that spit this bullpoo day and day out because they don`t have the insight to self educate themselves. props to him for not putting up with this "far right wing christian based" hate speach that is getting spread around america these days. the guy is an ignorant citizen and should not be allowed to vote in the next election (and in case you are wondering, i actually lean more right than left, so i`m hating on my own side if you will)
  117. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    June 4, 2011 at 2:56 pm
    Bah. Sorry Cajun. Hate to reply this late... it`s ages old and only just re-found this thread.

    On the off chance you ever revisit this, very good find:
    Urwa`s brother (Ursa) is the narrator. Which to be entirely fair could be argued is a second source, because he didn`t *necessarily* get it from his brother.

    Any attempts to begin the chain higher up would be speculation, even if it would be pretty probable speculation.
  118. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    June 4, 2011 at 2:57 pm
    Cajun:
    Btw, that last post was in response to:

    "BTW what about Vol 7, Book 62, Number 88, who`s that attributed to?"

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