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Date: 12/07/10 11:28 AM

222 Responses to Two Activists Assaulted At Hawaii State Capitol

  1. Profile photo of AtheistAlien
    AtheistAlien Male 30-39
    809 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 11:30 am
    Link: Two Activists Assaulted At Hawaii State Capitol - All because they objected to unconstitutional Christian pray used to begin each session of the Hawaii State Legislature.
  2. Profile photo of MrTwidget
    MrTwidget Male 30-39
    795 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 11:37 am
    Can`t we just start the revolution already?
  3. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36855 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 11:42 am
    It is not unconstitutional to have a prayer before a legislative session. It is unconstitutional to require participation.

    That said, the protestor wanted a reason for a law suit, now he`s got several good reasons.
  4. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 11:42 am
    When the 1st Amendment was adopted, this sort of activity was accepted and commonplace. The interpretation that the 1st Amendment bans all forms of religious expression in any public venue is quite recent and not in agreement with the the original intent of the amendment. I`m just sayin`...
  5. Profile photo of gorgack2000
    gorgack2000 Male 13-17
    4682 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 11:42 am
    Aaaand here come the internet anarchists.

    ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH
  6. Profile photo of TopperHey
    TopperHey Male 18-29
    1930 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 11:43 am
    No, it`s because they were dicks.
  7. Profile photo of nny156
    nny156 Male 18-29
    182 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 11:45 am
    Kill all Christians better yet anyone with a religion should be dragged out of the holes they crawl out of and killed burn down any and all religious buildings and public executions for religious leaders.
  8. Profile photo of Axejst
    Axejst Male 30-39
    130 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 11:46 am
    Words just don`t do it.
  9. Profile photo of Hawcon
    Hawcon Male 18-29
    44 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 11:47 am
    I approve the objection
  10. Profile photo of ieatbunnies
    ieatbunnies Male 30-39
    880 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 11:48 am
    That`s assault brother.
  11. Profile photo of FoSchizle
    FoSchizle Male 18-29
    330 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 11:49 am
    And the prayer is unconstitutional... how, exactly?
  12. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 11:49 am
    Huh.

    So that`s what a "Christian nation" looks like.
  13. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 11:56 am
    Activists found not guilty. Now the tax payers will be forced to fork over a huge settlement all because of these religious fanatics stupid fairy tale. A church on every corner is not enough apparently.
  14. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 11:56 am
    Does it even matter if it`s "constitutional" or not? It`s still wrong to have a government providing a floor for a religious service, which is exactly what this is.

    How about we take this down to the nuts and bolts; taxpayer money was directly spent on providing that prayer: the cost of the heating, lighting, employment, etc...everything to do with maintaining that building and the staff within it during that prayer.

    So either that taxpayer money must be spent fairly; meaning proportional time is given to worship for each and every religion and non-religion of the public present, or no time should be given at all.

    I`m flabbergasted that a so-called modern, 21st century, developed nation such as the United States does this sort of thing.

    It seems so...Iranian. Or 14th century.
  15. Profile photo of happygrass
    happygrass Male 18-29
    85 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:03 pm
    They got thrown out because they were disrespectfully yelling while someone else was speaking into the microphone. For religion reasons or not, speaking out of order in legislature will and should get you kicked out. Wait your turn to the microphone and speak your opinion when you get there. otherwise shut it.
  16. Profile photo of AnImbroglio
    AnImbroglio Male 30-39
    838 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:03 pm
    First... Freedom of speech dictates that I can pray whenever I want, in any forum I want, period. If I`m given mike time by those in charge, then I can pray there, too. On TV, radio, you name it. Second. The protesters have every right to protest it at the same time I`m praying. Unless it`s not a public venue, then they`ll be arrested. But if it is, hey, protest away. And lastly, this has absolutely nothing to do with religion, but freedom of speech. The protesters got that wrong, and apparently, a lot of you on this board are getting it wrong as well. Keep banning public speech that you don`t like, and see where you end up. Religious or otherwise.
  17. Profile photo of the_windy
    the_windy Female 18-29
    1589 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:07 pm
    "And the prayer is unconstitutional... how, exactly?"
    Separation of Church and State. Wow, I`m not even American and I know that.

    I think these activists were being rude. If you object, then don`t pray! They are not forcing you to. If you have strong feelings for it to not be included, then write a letter, or call speak to someone in charge in person or on the phone.
  18. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:08 pm
    So Holly is rude, they incited the reaction they caught in order to have something to complain about.

    Atheism clearly strips its adherents of their capacity of to be civil or function in society.
  19. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:09 pm
    madest`s post is hate speech.
  20. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:11 pm
    Atheism clearly strips its adherents of their capacity of to be civil or function in society.
    ---------
    Religion strips logic out of everything. Play with your dumb club friends in church or at home. Leave rational people out of it.
  21. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:12 pm
    I`m with the two "activists". I really think that religion must stay off from every public place( except any kind of church obviously) or places that have an istitutional function. In my country (Italy) we have the same issue, the conservative governement now want that in all pubblic school there must be a holy christian cross despite to personal faith. This is unfair and go against our constitution that grant freedom of faith. Seem that this new millenium have bring us to cloudy era of Middle Ages.
  22. Profile photo of duffytoler
    duffytoler Male 40-49
    5195 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:14 pm
    More religious a-holes. Like suicide bombers or natives throwing a girl in a volcano, they always use violence to enforce their fairytales and myths. Hypocrites pretending they`re the "good guys" when they`re beating someone up or killing them.
  23. Profile photo of rastaspoon
    rastaspoon Male 30-39
    29 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:16 pm
    Musuko`s a tard.

    Do YOU know the specific circumstances of what happened here? Nope, didn`t think so. If they want to pray, you shouldn`t give a crap, it`s your choice. If you want to change it, then V-O-T-E, become an activist or politician and CHANGE it. Shouting during something like this is only going to get a deserved boot up your butt.

  24. Profile photo of rastaspoon
    rastaspoon Male 30-39
    29 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:18 pm
    BTW, I`m an atheist and think this isn`t the place for prayer, but I`m certainly not going to be outraged when someone acts like a jackass and gets thumped.
  25. Profile photo of AirborneJT
    AirborneJT Male 18-29
    145 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:19 pm
    Religion is responsible for many of the problems we have in Hawaii today. Of course, many people would have mixed feelings about that, because there is a very large number of Christians in the state.

    Queen Ka`ahumanu was convinced by the missionaries that Christianity was the true religion. She immediately ordered that everything related to their old belief system be forgotten and destroyed. For that reason, there are many things that we will never know about ancient Hawai`ian culture.

    It`s sad to see how the missionaries infect cultures around the world like a bad case of herpies.
  26. Profile photo of Aragnarok
    Aragnarok Male 30-39
    51 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:20 pm
    The only people trying to forcefully impose their views on others are the hippie protesters! Hypocrites!! If you are an atheist then prayers mean literally nothing to you because you don`t believe in it, so why is it an issue at all? Nobody is forcing you to do anything. It is all of these retards running around in their ignorance shouting about the constitution like it is a magical document to force their viewpoints on others far more than any religion does.
  27. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:23 pm
    If you want to change it, then V-O-T-E, become an activist or politician and CHANGE it.
    ---------
    They don`t need to vote dummy. 1st amendment to the constitution denies the government the right to endorse any religion. You live in this country. You should read the constitution some time.
  28. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:25 pm
    Activists are sometimes good, and sometimes bad.

    This time, they did it wrong.

    It is a constitutional right to pray whenever we choose. If someone in the room did not agree, they have the right to abstain.
  29. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:26 pm
    "1st amendment to the constitution denies the government the right to endorse any religion."

    I did not hear him say God or Jesus. What religion was he representing?
  30. Profile photo of jfunkhsr
    jfunkhsr Male 18-29
    27 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:27 pm
    why didn`t they say a muslim prayer? or a jewish prayer? why jesus?
  31. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:31 pm
    Any prayer is an endorsement of religion AJ. But you know that, you`re just rabble rousing. And the activists were right. If they weren`t they wouldn`t have won in court.
  32. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:32 pm
    Guys ther is something strange in your comments and is the word "atheist". You all are assuming theat this two guys are atheist cause they are against this pray. Maybe they are just from another religion that is not christian and this don`t mean to be atheist ( the word atheist become from ancient greek and is composed by A and Theos and just mean without god) maybe they belive in a different religion and i think they have all right to protest against a monopolistic way to introduce religion in a "PUBBLIC" place that is supposed to serve all population despite their faith. Maybe the way they have chosed is not so politically correct but the substance of message still stand.
  33. Profile photo of jfunkhsr
    jfunkhsr Male 18-29
    27 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:33 pm
    auburnjunky - he said "in jesus name, amen"
  34. Profile photo of SPrinkZ
    SPrinkZ Male 18-29
    2284 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:35 pm
    There is no reason for prayer or anything non-secular to be involved in our politics. Politics is for the world we live in, not the one some hope to go to. It`s just that simple. You want to pray? Go to church, go home, or wherever else you want. Just don`t bring it to government institutions. That is for real human life. Not the imaginary soul, or anything else like that. Keep that poo elsewhere. I live on this planet, and I have to share it with you. The least others can do is respect my right to not believe what they believe.
  35. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:35 pm
    "1st amendment to the constitution denies the government the right to endorse any religion."

    I did not hear him say God or Jesus. What religion was he representing?
  36. Profile photo of bacon_pie
    bacon_pie Male 30-39
    3061 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:35 pm
    my favorite part was when the cameraman yelled "POLICE" while the police tackled him.
  37. Profile photo of SPrinkZ
    SPrinkZ Male 18-29
    2284 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:38 pm
    No one seems to understand that we live in America. Not Christian Land. This is not a Christian nation any more than it is a White nation, a Black nation, an Indian nation, a Muslim nation, a Jewish nation, etc. etc.

    It is a nation of freedom of personal belief, and of multiple creeds, races, etc.

    Respecting any one religion is wrong. Because all are equally invalid in my eyes, but at least they should all be respected if you are going to respect Christianity. Why not Satanism, or LaVeyism, or Luciferianism, or Hinduism, or Buddhism, or Shintoism?

    respect em all, or none. Simple. Seems easier to do the latter though.
  38. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:41 pm
    Look IseeingI2I, With a resounding gavel beating, the people here were directed to bow their heads and pray by the state government. If it were just one person who felt the need to pray you would be right. This was a directive issued by state government and is unconstitutional. Read this.
  39. Profile photo of SPrinkZ
    SPrinkZ Male 18-29
    2284 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:41 pm
    If anyone is wondering if it is a Christian religion...listen to the Amen.
  40. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:42 pm
    I did not hear him say God or Jesus. What religion was he representing?
    0:29 "Father, we thank you for this day..."
    0:36 "We pray, Lord, that as you lead us this morning..."
    0:44 "Today, Lord, we thank you for the people..."
    0:57 "Help them, Lord, to have success..."
    1:09 "Lord, give us a good day today..."
    1:14 "in the name of your son, Jesus Christ"


    What the hell video were you watching AJ?
  41. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:45 pm
    Oops. Missed the Jesus at the end. Sorry guys.
  42. Profile photo of Blaklesby
    Blaklesby Male 18-29
    24 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:48 pm
    why are everyone against Christians but all for Muslims?
  43. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:51 pm
    why are everyone against Christians but all for Muslims?
    We`re not. A call to prayer with everyone facing Mecca would have been just as unconstitutional.
  44. Profile photo of Blaklesby
    Blaklesby Male 18-29
    24 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:55 pm
    Doubt it. if Muslims had their prayer with everyone facing mecca then people would say that it`s their rights. Did you hear about the judge barring the votes on sharia law?
  45. Profile photo of Heilsquav
    Heilsquav Male 18-29
    21 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:55 pm
    They didn`t have to take part in the prayer...
  46. Profile photo of IseeingI2I
    IseeingI2I Male 18-29
    271 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:56 pm
    atheism strips most of the ability to act like a civil person i dont mind if you object just dont be a annoying F*CKTARD when doing so

    those titty baby hippies only won because they whined enough i wouldve kicked their ass myself for being so annoying and odds are one of them envoked the officer otherwise they wouldve pounced on the two in the building and they shouldnt have won do to this ruling by the supreme court

    @madest you have to admit both partys were at least incredibly annoying and wouldnt each of their actions be covered under freedom of speech because neither albeit annoyingly but still were not forcing their views on one another
  47. Profile photo of helix25
    helix25 Male 18-29
    165 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:56 pm
    In this case the government is not endorsing religion, the man is simply praying. If it were a muslim, he could do it too. The first amemdment of the constitution forbids to proritize a religion, that does not mean one cannot pray before giving his speech.

    They had the right to film and no one had the right to keep them from doing so. But they interrupted the court which is supposed to stay in order.

    Wrong on both sides.
  48. Profile photo of Blaklesby
    Blaklesby Male 18-29
    24 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:57 pm
    sorry, I didn`t complete my sentence. Did you hear about to judge barring the votes against sharia law in courts?
  49. Profile photo of Dagaz20
    Dagaz20 Female 18-29
    382 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 12:59 pm
    wow... just wow....`s intense
  50. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:00 pm
    if Muslims had their prayer with everyone facing mecca then people would say that it`s their rights

    They can pray facing Mecca in a mosque. Christians can pray to God in church. Hell, they can both pray out in public on the street if they want. But neither should be praying from a government podium. I am clearly, right now, saying that is not their right, because it violates the First Amendment.
    I don`t even live in America, do I really have to explain your country`s laws to you?
  51. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1610 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:02 pm
    "atheism strips most of the ability to act like a civil person i dont mind if you object just dont be a annoying F*CKTARD when doing so"

    activist =/= atheist
  52. Profile photo of Blaklesby
    Blaklesby Male 18-29
    24 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:03 pm
    nope, do I have to explain our country`s law to you? I don`t even have to. read helix25`s post.
  53. Profile photo of jennylu
    jennylu Female 18-29
    66 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:04 pm
    @Blaklesby
    We are not against Christians but all for Muslims. We are for tolerance.
  54. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:04 pm
    atheism strips most of the ability to act like a civil person i dont mind if you object just dont be a annoying F*CKTARD when doing so
    How would you propose they object, if not by voicing their objection? If they do complain about the assault, you just call it "whining".
  55. Profile photo of SPrinkZ
    SPrinkZ Male 18-29
    2284 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:05 pm
    So if it was a tradition to worship in a Muslim prayer, you`d all be okay with this? I`m seriously doubting that this is constitutional at all, and if any judge in the past saying this was constitutional obviously doesn`t understand the constitution. We shouldn`t have to use our public funds to pay for a Christian sermon in our government buildings. I don`t even understand how that is justifiable. Respect all, or none. It`s very simple. Not everyone is a Christian.
  56. Profile photo of sataide
    sataide Male 18-29
    8 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:07 pm
    I normally avoid this kind of thing, but in order for this to be termed "unconstitutional"; it would have to overturn a previous Supreme Court ruling. Take a look at MARSH v. CHAMBERS, 463 U.S. 783 (1983)
  57. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:09 pm
    Helix`s post is wrong. Judge Leslie Hayashi ruled that it was unconstitutional.
    The protesters are right, Hawaii state officials, yourself and Helix are wrong.
  58. Profile photo of doomncandy
    doomncandy Female 18-29
    128 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:10 pm
    "atheism strips most of the ability to act like a civil person i don`t mind if you object just don`t be a annoying F*CKTARD when doing so"

    Funny, what about segregation? Do you think they were annoying f*cktards for voicing an opinion that was wrong back when? I don`t think you mind voicing your annoying f*ucktard opinions. Atheism strips nothing, stupid people who don`t follow laws strip civility.
  59. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:10 pm
    @madest you have to admit both partys were at least incredibly annoying.
    -------------
    I don`t admit any such thing. The activists in this case were the heros of America. Anybody standing up for the rights of all Americans should be commended. You lilly livered spineless weaklings who would have sat there in silence disgust me.
  60. Profile photo of Blaklesby
    Blaklesby Male 18-29
    24 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:11 pm
    ah so we get to the butthurt.
  61. Profile photo of SPrinkZ
    SPrinkZ Male 18-29
    2284 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:13 pm
    I don`t care about Marsh Vs Whateversauce. The judges clearly were smoking some crack pipe while deliberating. Tradition doesn`t mean that something is constitutional. It may be the tradition to put in god we trust on our money (an extremely recent tradition at that), but it sure as hell isn`t right.
  62. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:15 pm
    I think he needs a better camera!
  63. Profile photo of helix25
    helix25 Male 18-29
    165 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:16 pm
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    Is this person making a law in favor to Christianity? no. Are we preventing his freedom of speech and exercise of religion? Yes. Is he preventing others`s freedom of religion? No.
  64. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:17 pm
    sataide: I would say that that ruling was itself overturned by the more recent Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet, 512 U.S. 687 (1994) where the Supreme Court ruled that "government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion". Which is clearly happening in this case.
  65. Profile photo of Blaklesby
    Blaklesby Male 18-29
    24 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:17 pm
    almightybob1 is looking more and more like another typical butthurt European.
  66. Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:18 pm
    The best part of these videos is watching conservatives wrap themselves up in knots in the comments. They love the Constitution, except when their religion is on the line. They hate those activists, except when they name their political movement after this country`s most famous activist event. Logic and reason aren`t their strong points, but that is obvious by the fact that they have a religion.
  67. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:21 pm
    almightybob1 is looking more and more like another typical butthurt European.
    Lol. Butthurt about what? I`m right. The judge agrees with me. Butthurt is when you lose, or are wrong.
  68. Profile photo of Blaklesby
    Blaklesby Male 18-29
    24 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:21 pm
    @MeGrendel

    according to NotaSpy you are a religious conservative.
  69. Profile photo of sataide
    sataide Male 18-29
    8 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:22 pm
    almightybob1: I hadn`t seen that particular case before; thank you. I read into it further and I think the two cases are too dissimilar to allow for a valid comparison. The judge ruled on the basis of religion where that was clearly not the crux of the matter. (on a related note; was the individual who prayed paid by the state or with public funds?)
  70. Profile photo of SPrinkZ
    SPrinkZ Male 18-29
    2284 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:24 pm
    I read the bill of rights. Where does it say that you can use public funds to pay a preacher to give a Christian prayer?

    Why do any of you think this is right? Can`t you accept that your prayers should be kept to yourselves, or better yet, in your churches and other religious institutions? No one has a problem with that. In fact, those same activists would probably fight for your right to pray in the places you are allowed to if ANYONE infringed on it, but stop infringing on my government with this neotheocracy crap.
  71. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:24 pm
    (people who disagree need to read the bill of rights & a little history)
    I will pass on to Judge Leslie Hayashi the information that MeGrendel says she needs to go learn the law. I`m sure she will be pleased you let her know.
  72. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:24 pm
    The prayer was perfectly constitutional (people who disagree need to read the bill of rights & a little history).

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..." Well, they were not making a law concerning it. It amazes me how progressives like to take the `Freedom of religion` and change it to `Freedom from religion.`

    These idiots became belligerent while they were (rightfully) being escorted out of a forum they had interrupted. Yes, they have the right to be offended. So what?

    SPrinkZ-"So if it was a tradition to worship in a Muslim prayer, you`d all be okay with this?"

    If it were tradition, or even if it was not and some people just wanted to do it, I would be okay with it. I would stand in respective silence but would not participate. I would expect the same respect in return.
  73. Profile photo of helix25
    helix25 Male 18-29
    165 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:28 pm
    Preacher? he is just praying, for himself or not, it`s part of his speech and I don`t think it`s costing a drating load of money, I`d say $0. Again be it in a court or not, someone has a right to pray. The first amendment prevents one from ruling in favor or a religion, that is all.
  74. Profile photo of rogue_knight
    rogue_knight Male 40-49
    868 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:28 pm
    If you walk out in front of a bus because you have the right of way and get run over, being right doesn`t make you less stupid...
  75. Profile photo of splurbyburbl
    splurbyburbl Male 30-39
    2798 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:28 pm
    People, PEOPLE!!! Everyone calm down!!

    Before we start this debate and flame war...

    LET US PRAY.

    "Dear little, tiny infant Jesus..."
  76. Profile photo of Nburkie420
    Nburkie420 Male 18-29
    721 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:29 pm
    Religion is stupid anyways, causes nothing but hate, separation between the human race and ultimately war.
  77. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:32 pm
    almightybob1: I hadn`t seen that particular case before; thank you.
    No problem :) I`m surprised you haven`t heard of it though - you seem to know what you`re talking about, and that quote from Judge Souter is one I thought was pretty well-known. Anyway, glad to help.

    I read into it further and I think the two cases are too dissimilar to allow for a valid comparison.
    Possibly. It didn`t specifically overturn Marsh v. Chambers so you might be right. Although it then seems to me that the two rulings contradict each other. I`m not a lawyer though.

    (on a related note; was the individual who prayed paid by the state or with public funds?)
    I don`t know. I`m trying to catch his name, but I can`t quite get it from the video. Reverend Doctor David something... Hapley?
  78. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:42 pm
    almightybob1-“ I will pass on to Judge Leslie Hayashi the information”

    Please do so. Inform her that until she specifically rules that it was unconstitutional, and has that upheld by the United State Supreme Court, it will remain that prayers before government meetings do not violate the constitution. The only restriction of this is that there must not be an imposition of an improper restriction on the type of prayer that can be made to open the session.

    The only serious ruling that effects Marsh v. Chambers was Simpson v. Chesterfield County Board of Supervisors. U.S. District Courts ruled that a particular religion could not be excluded. The Fourth Circuit Court reversed the District Court (April 7, 2005) holding that Chesterfield’s policy was constitutional. The U.S Supreme Court declined to hear the case.

    So, as it stands, it is constitutional to open a government meeting with a prayer. Feel free to inform Judge Hayashi of that.
  79. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:53 pm
    almightybob1-“ I would say that that ruling was itself overturned by the more recent Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet, 512 U.S. 687 (1994)”

    This was a case of the government basically setting up a school district for only one religion. Not even remotely related to prayer before a meeting.

    Things you will not find evidence of in the video:
    -Was the Baptist Reverend paid? (it`s very possible he was a volunteer).
    -Is only Baptist Preachers allowed to give the prayer? (It`s very possible that on other days, a Methodist may give a prayer, or a Buddhist or even a Muslim).
    -That anyone was forced to participate in the prayer? (his words were, “WOULD you bow with me in prayer?” This is known as a request. He did not say “You WILL pray with me!”. And it would seem that the vast majority of those assembled appreciated the prayer.)
  80. Profile photo of SPrinkZ
    SPrinkZ Male 18-29
    2284 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 1:58 pm
    American protects minorities. It doesn`t project majority rule onto everyone. That`s why democracies fail for the most part. If you want our democracy to fail, then let the majority rule.
  81. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36855 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 2:03 pm
    AnImbroglio - "Freedom of speech dictates that I can pray whenever I want, in any forum I want, period."

    That`s the worst interpretation I`ve ever read. Whenever and Whereever? Puh-leez!

    Whenever: Try having a loud, long prayer in the middle of a chemistry exam at school and see how far you get.

    Wherever: You can`t pick any forum you want like a spoiled kid throwing a tantrum. If you want to pray in the middle of the airport runway you don`t have the right to do so. Nor on other peoples private property.

    A lot of people have the misconception that they have a RIGHT to do whatever they damn well please whenever it damn well pleases them to do it.

    Wrong

    Wrong

    Wrong
  82. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 2:03 pm
    To pray is not inconstitutional obviously but to pray in a governemnet place is against the equality that must be granted to each kind of religion in constitution, and is against the separtation between government and religion. Every governmet that want to call himself free must take apart any form of religion or is not so different from "fanatics religion states " that America pretend to fight all over the world. You want to pray just do it...everywhere but not in MY government places. And this have nothing to do with freedom of speech, this is just a form of respect for each kind of races ,religion or non religion that are at the base of government. So if you urge to pray do it in silence ,in your mind, when you are in a place builded with money of whole population.
  83. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 2:08 pm
    One of my favorite quotes:
    "Prayers are like masturbation. It only makes YOU feel
    good and it`s something you should do in private, in your
    house. At least go to the bathroom"

    And I agree... It doesn`t matter what non-logical ghost
    daddy you believe in, the government can`t be on the side
    of ANY of those religions, because that would denigrate all
    of the other religions

    As much as I`d like to see every religion disappear, I want
    even more to live in a society where everybody has the same
    rights. Starting with a prayer in any government-related issue
    clearly gives that religion, christians in this case, a
    status of privilege, thus discriminating other religions

    Btw... Judges can even disagree with the law (Which they rarely
    do) and that`s why precedent`s, even when they have to be taken
    seriously, aren`t always the right way to go... Times change and
    a law interpretation from 20 years ago can in fac
  84. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 2:10 pm
    ... Times change and
    a law interpretation from 20 years ago can in fact be biased and
    would, like it would seem in this case, be reinterpreted
  85. Profile photo of slayerou812
    slayerou812 Male 30-39
    8 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 2:30 pm
    please tell me these people pressed charges...
  86. Profile photo of Angelmassb
    Angelmassb Male 18-29
    15511 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 2:37 pm
    So silly
  87. Profile photo of TruTenrMan
    TruTenrMan Male 30-39
    2553 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 2:38 pm
    And if they had a reading from the Koran, and someone did this, they`d be racist. LOL @ double-standards.
  88. Profile photo of Axejst
    Axejst Male 30-39
    130 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 2:42 pm
    Iceblack, I was going to post, but it would have looked like I had copied and pasted from yours.

    There is a difference between exercising a right to freedom of religion and abusing said right.
  89. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 2:50 pm
    "-Was the Baptist Reverend paid? (it`s very possible he was a volunteer).
    -Is only Baptist Preachers allowed to give the prayer? (It`s very possible that on other days, a Methodist may give a prayer, or a Buddhist or even a Muslim).
    -That anyone was forced to participate in the prayer? (his words were, “WOULD you bow with me in prayer?” This is known as a request. He did not say “You WILL pray with me!”. And it would seem that the vast majority of those assembled appreciated the prayer."

    This is all irrelevant to the fact that he was using a government forum as a medium for his religion (a prayer).

    When governments allow religion to intermingle with their affairs, it violates the constitution.
  90. Profile photo of PSURyan
    PSURyan Male 18-29
    5 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 2:51 pm
    People are allowed and should be allowed to pray when and where they want. That is not the issue here.

    The issue is the state endoresement of a religion, as in this case. Here, the state unjustly given more power or rights to a specific religion. Though it is the majority religion, it does not mean they get the exclusive right in government.

    Prayer or any other religios expression does not have a place on the floors of our government. If a group of legislators wants to pray outside before each session, they have every right to it, but not one organized by the state itself, ie, a prayer designated or required by the state itself.
  91. Profile photo of ruthless1990
    ruthless1990 Female 18-29
    3001 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 2:53 pm
    @TruTenrMan

    true dat.
  92. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:02 pm
    @rastaspoon

    "Nope, didn`t think so. If they want to pray, you shouldn`t give a crap, it`s your choice. If you want to change it, then V-O-T-E, become an activist or politician and CHANGE it."

    Do please note the location stated under my name.

    I don`t need to become an activist or vote, because my country doesn`t have this ridiculous problem.

    You need to be ashamed. I don`t.
  93. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:06 pm
    @helix25

    "In this case the government is not endorsing religion, the man is simply praying."

    You left out "upon a platform provided to him at public expense."

    Was everyone else present given the same opportunity to step up to that mike and lead their own prayer service, one at a time?
  94. Profile photo of Helgarin
    Helgarin Male 18-29
    506 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:08 pm
    Well said PSURyan. Very well said.

  95. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:08 pm
    "Was everyone else present given the same opportunity to step up to that mike and lead their own prayer service, one at a time?"

    Even then, we could not possibly accommodate all religions.
  96. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:09 pm
    By the by...

    ...everyone, on both sides of the argument, could you PLEASE stop arguing about whether this is constitutional or not, as if the US Constitution is the ONLY law document in your country, or the ONLY guide of what is right that you have?
  97. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:13 pm
    @helix25

    "it`s part of his speech and I don`t think it`s costing a drating load of money"

    Heating/air conditioning, lighting, security, and the wages of every single staff member involved in the meeting for the duration of the prayer.

    Not a huge cost, but if this is a regular occurance, you`re talking about a lot of resources (time and money) over the year.
  98. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:14 pm
    "By the by...

    ...everyone, on both sides of the argument, could you PLEASE stop arguing about whether this is constitutional or not, as if the US Constitution is the ONLY law document in your country, or the ONLY guide of what is right that you have?"

    The constitution is our binding law which we all must uphold. More than that, it is the supreme law; if one can rule by the constitution, there should be no further argument.
  99. Profile photo of splurbyburbl
    splurbyburbl Male 30-39
    2798 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:15 pm
    This sounds like a job for,
  100. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:15 pm
    The US Congress has prayer to open it`s session every morning with many denominations and religions on a rotating basis.

    The constitution says "Freedom of religion" NOT "Freedom from religion", The phrase "Separation of church and state" does not appear in the US Constitution at all.

    I`m afraid way to many people have been brainwashed with secularism so thoroughly, That they have no idea what is and isn`t `constitutional` anymore.
  101. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:15 pm
    @yanging

    "Even then, we could not possibly accommodate all religions."

    EXACTLY.

    So with that conclusion, the only fair option is to accomodate none of them.
  102. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:17 pm
    @yangying.

    "The constitution is our binding law which we all must uphold"

    Yes, but it is not your ONLY law. Saying that the Constitution doesn`t prohibit it doesn`t mean that other parts of your law doesn`t either.

    The Constitution speaks not a word regarding copyright law, for example.
  103. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:18 pm
    "The US Congress has prayer to open it`s session every morning with many denominations and religions on a rotating basis.

    The constitution says "Freedom of religion" NOT "Freedom from religion", The phrase "Separation of church and state" does not appear in the US Constitution at all.

    I`m afraid way to many people have been brainwashed with secularism so thoroughly, That they have no idea what is and isn`t `constitutional` anymore. "

    Congress shall make no law preventing the practice of religion or respecting the establishment thereof.

    Having a religion pray at a government function is, most assuredly, respecting an establishment of that religion. Religion does not have a place a government: it has no place in the Hawaiian Senate, and surely no place in our Congress.
  104. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:19 pm
    "Yes, but it is not your ONLY law. Saying that the Constitution doesn`t prohibit it doesn`t mean that other parts of your law doesn`t either.

    The Constitution speaks not a word regarding copyright law, for example."

    I understand this. But the first article of our Bill of Rights directly delegates how matters of religion and government should be dealt with. It would be silly (and fruitless) to look to a lesser authority for a solution.
  105. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:31 pm
    yanging: You are wrongly emphasizing the "..respecting the establishment thereof" part and overlooking the "Shall make no law.." part.

    There is no law regarding prayer to open a session of congress or state legislatures. The government has not established any religion as a `state religion`. That phrase was put there because King George of England was not only the `Head of state` he was the `Head of the church of England` (Anglican/Episcopal Church).

    When Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists using the phrase "Separation of church and state" It pertained to the Church of England, Because the Danbury Baptists were worried that America would adopt that church as a `state religion` and thus be beholden religiously to the King of England again.
  106. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:36 pm
    The phrase "Separation of church and state" does not appear in the US Constitution at all.
    ---------------
    You and Christine O`Donnell. There`s somebody to emulate.
  107. Profile photo of Discobiscuit
    Discobiscuit Male 18-29
    542 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:39 pm
    Idk why they felt obligated to act out anyway. Tolerance should go both ways?
  108. Profile photo of Kougaiji
    Kougaiji Male 18-29
    604 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:39 pm
    YES O HOW I MISSED FEEDING THE TROLLS WITH REASON
    PS this is photoshopped
    I can tell from the pixels and from having seen many photoshops in my time.

    Srsly guys we`ve all explained the establishment clause over and over again, and these people will ignore that. Even if it were not there, any reasonable, moral, fair man should have the choice to be free from a religion or any institution. One needn`t a law to understand human rights and common decency.
  109. Profile photo of Kougaiji
    Kougaiji Male 18-29
    604 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:40 pm
    Crakr spin it any way you want but thomas jefferson was as secularist as they get
  110. Profile photo of MauserTM
    MauserTM Male 18-29
    1222 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:43 pm
    Shouldnt they have like ukuleles?
  111. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:54 pm
    "There is no law regarding prayer to open a session of congress or state legislatures. The government has not established any religion as a `state religion`. That phrase was put there because King George of England was not only the `Head of state` he was the `Head of the church of England` (Anglican/Episcopal Church).

    When Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists using the phrase "Separation of church and state" It pertained to the Church of England, Because the Danbury Baptists were worried that America would adopt that church as a `state religion` and thus be beholden religiously to the King of England again."

    If you wish to uphold the position that the constitution is neutral on this topic then so be it. I would ask now that we talk about how we can address the issue of government endorsing religion on official platforms. It would be heinous to say that allowing public prayer for governmental events is antyhing otherwise.
  112. Profile photo of jak22
    jak22 Male 18-29
    154 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:58 pm
    okay crakr jack, if the seperation of church and state just meant no state religion, as our forefathers intended it to according to you, even though it says separation of church and state, than it is unconstitutional and un-american to own a modern gun. because when they wrote the right to bear arms, and the only things they thought of were muskets, not AR`s and semi auto handguns.
  113. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:59 pm
    Kougaiji: Actually he (Thomas Jefferson) wasn`t secularist at all.

    Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June 26, 1822
    "1. That there is one only God, and he all perfect.
    2. That there is a future state of rewards and punishments.
    3. That to love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself, is the sum of religion. "

    Inside the Jefferson Memorial

    "God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever. Commerce between master and slave is despotism. Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than these people are to be free. Establish the law for educating the common people. This it is the business of the state to effect and on a general plan."
    — Thomas Jefferson
  114. Profile photo of jak22
    jak22 Male 18-29
    154 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 3:59 pm
    thats what pisses me off about the right AND the far left. you dont Fking look at the whole issue. just your side and you only look for things to confirm your beliefs.
  115. Profile photo of paco664
    paco664 Male 40-49
    159 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 4:03 pm
    actually the term "separation of church and state" does not appear in the constitution.... try reading it sometimes... that term appears in the federalist papers.......

    and these 2 asshats deserved the poo kicked out of them for disturbing others.....

  116. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 4:06 pm
    CJ, There are equally as many Thomas Jefferson writings doubting God. I won`t quote him but he was clear about hating organized religion. You would know that if you actually read any of his writings.
    Don`t forget Thomas Paine was a forefather. He was an atheist. None of the forefathers were reverends or tied to any church other than occasional attendees.
  117. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33127 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 4:09 pm
    Whiners and crybabies! They should come to Winnipeg where our Pigs will show them a REAL cop-beat-down! Then drop you in an alley when it`s -40...

    (I hate Winnipeg`s Pigs, and police brutality in all it`s forms, but these two weenies are crying about THAT? Grow a pair between you boys...)
  118. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 4:10 pm
    jak22: "Arms" means more than just `firearms` and is certainly not restricted to the technology of the time. I`m not saying it`s legal or a right for someone to make pipe bombs or owning hand grenades, But there was nothing in the constitution that is `frozen in time`.
  119. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 4:12 pm
    madest: Jefferson was an anti-Calvinist, That doesn`t mean he was an atheist. He didn`t believe in the ritualized pomp of many Christian denominations of the time, But it`s clear he believed in God.
  120. Profile photo of Pooptart19
    Pooptart19 Male 18-29
    2441 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 4:23 pm
    actually the term "separation of church and state" does not appear in the constitution.... try reading it sometimes...
    *facepalm*
  121. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 4:27 pm
    Regarding the State of Hawaii many of you are talking about something you know nothing about except as a tourist spot. Any Invocation is already allowed by Hawaii State Constitution and ruled as constitutional by it`s State Supreme Court already. End of discussion as it`s a states right already ruled and issue declared by US Supreme Court and no longer a Fed matter.

    This poo goes on almost everyday. The state legislation opens each session with a prayer be it, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Hawaiian etc... by invitation and rotates.

    It never ceases to amaze me. As one of my best friends who is pure Hawaiian and an sovereign activist stated. The haloes always want to live like it was in old Hawaii, but they want to come and change it to their way of thinking of how it should be the haole way. Go figure.
  122. Profile photo of PSURyan
    PSURyan Male 18-29
    5 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 4:27 pm
    The First Amendment to the US constitution reads

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    To pick out the relevent parts here, we have the Establishment Clause. This is what is violated here. By choosing one religion to open every session, you are Establishing that that religion with the states power.

    The second partis the Free Exercise Clause. The man is welcome to pray, even pray on that floor at the podium. What is not alright is that the STATE mandates that the session be opened with a prayer or observance of any religion.

    a note on Jefferson, in th Danbury Letter, he is outlining his own view, and in doing so, shows that he was far more worried about the government staying out of religion than religi
  123. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 4:31 pm
    The other thing is why was he calling for the police. it was the Sheriffs dept that was arresting him. HPD has no jurisdiction on Capital grounds. Also contrary to belief there is no Five-O
  124. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 4:34 pm
    @Pooptart19

    My thoughts exactly.
    Some people confuse "literal words" to "comprehension", just
    because the Constitution doesn`t have THOSE EXACT words it
    doesn`t mean that it`s not clear what it actually means

    Just for the fun of it...
    @5Cats - Did you know that the words "Fair trial" don`t
    appear on the constitution either? It doesn`t say that you
    have the "Right to a fair trial", but guess what... What it
    actually says (Which I can remember now) gives you that right
    because that`s what it proposes, means, declares, what ever
    you want to call it
  125. Profile photo of SlothOfDoom
    SlothOfDoom Male 30-39
    2033 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 4:59 pm
    "unconstitutional Christian pray"

    Grammar am IAB use good.
  126. Profile photo of pocketmoron
    pocketmoron Male 18-29
    191 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 5:00 pm
    Hmmmm... interesting... I hope he actually sues. I know that for the Georgia state senate that people are allowed to sit in a balcony (not on the actual floor) and are strictly warned against being loud or distracting. They also have a Christian opening prayer every morning (and, I think, a short sermon thingy) by leaders from different Christian denominations. (many senators and the governor also prayed on the steps to the capitol building that it would rain, during a drought a few years ago. There was a protest the same day, however)
    So, no they really shouldn`t have yelled, and being escorted out was the proper response, but neither should they have been assaulted and their camera broken/attempted to be taken away. Sometimes, though, change calls for somewhat vocal and obtrusive measures. I do hope we can move past this soon. Religion really doesn`t have anything to do with congress.
  127. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 5:12 pm
    disgusting... I would have expected this from Kansas or Texas or some such craphole, but not Hawaii! It looks like there are very few sane places in the US left.
  128. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 5:17 pm
    @pocketmoron

    So your saying the citizens of Hawaii have no right of self-determination then?
  129. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 5:19 pm
    @Fu*ckMe484
    You don`t know anything about Hawaiians and their attitudes. STFU
  130. Profile photo of Heilsquav
    Heilsquav Male 18-29
    21 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 5:19 pm
    I wouldn`t call these people activists... they`re more like atheists trying to push their ideals on the Christians in the room. All they have to do is sit there and ignore a prayer for 20 seconds...
  131. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 5:26 pm
    "I wouldn`t call these people activists... they`re more like atheists trying to push their ideals on the Christians in the room. All they have to do is sit there and ignore a prayer for 20 seconds..."

    I`ll bite. Yes and no. There is no `agenda` in term of religious belief here. Go worship Jesus and whatnot. But simply keep it out of government. Easy.
  132. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 5:27 pm
    @Heilsquay

    That`s correct. They do not do this when other religions are doing their prayers. Only when it`s a Christian.
  133. Profile photo of nettech98
    nettech98 Male 50-59
    1043 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 5:30 pm
    @handys: Of course there`s five-o. Not just in Hawaii, but it generically refers to all cops. Urban dictionary
  134. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 5:34 pm
    For the record this incident happened in April 2010. The charges were dropped on both. They were planning to sue. No lawsuit has not been filed as to this date. Like I said freaking haoles making trouble wanting to change everything.
  135. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 5:35 pm
    @nettech98
    LOL! Yeah in that way.
  136. Profile photo of ElMustache
    ElMustache Male 18-29
    1625 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 5:38 pm
    Separation of church and state much?
  137. Profile photo of blckhawk1234
    blckhawk1234 Male 18-29
    518 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 5:41 pm
    "I wouldn`t call these people activists... they`re more like atheists trying to push their ideals on the Christians in the room. All they have to do is sit there and ignore a prayer for 20 seconds..."

    rofl and what is a prayer in a secular government? Pushing of ideals.
  138. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33127 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 5:44 pm
    @5Cats - Did you know that the words "Fair trial" don`t appear on the constitution either?
    Um, Me? @iceblack I think you`ve got the wrong cat! lolz!

    The term you`re looking for is "due process" and was quite revolutionary back in the day, eh? France especially, and all Europeans were locking political prisoners up until they died with no tirals, evidence or whatnot. Giving someone "due process" is a great idea!
    Most South American countries have had brutal dictatorships which frequently tortured thousands+ to death, I`m sure glad my Yank neighbors have a better legal system than that!

    To me these two sissies show what`s wrong with "the left" and why the left is `yesterday`s news`.
  139. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 5:51 pm
    @5cats
    Just realized I wrote the wrong name, that post was for "paco664"

    Sorry lol
  140. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 5:55 pm
    5Cats you forget to say that the large part of dictator in South America was putting on charge by U.S.A. Is to easy to wash dirty clothes on the neighbourood states and showing to the rest of the world that we have clean hands.In any case this is not question of left and right is just question of free gouvernement or gouvernement mixed with religion.
  141. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 6:07 pm
    And if they had a reading from the Koran, and someone did this, they`d be racist. LOL @ double-standards.
    If you did it in a mosque, yeah, you`d be being a dick. If it was as part of a government function, then that would be unconstitutional too and you would be correct to protest it, not racist. I have already said, Muslims or Jews or Vikings should not be leading prayers either.

    The constitution says "Freedom of religion" NOT "Freedom from religion", The phrase "Separation of church and state" does not appear in the US Constitution at all.
    I`m not sure how many times I can quote the Justice Souter line in this thread in general, or at you in particular CJ. You know the one I mean, the one that ends "or prefer religion to irreligion". I`ve told you it enough times.

    I wonder how often they let an atheist get up and NOT pray to kick off the Congress session?
  142. Profile photo of Heilsquav
    Heilsquav Male 18-29
    21 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 6:07 pm
    @blckhawk1235
    I think anyone should be able to pray in a public building, but yelling out in the middle of someone else`s prayer is a real d*ck move. Protest it some other way instead of going all revolutionary.
  143. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 6:11 pm
    That`s correct. They do not do this when other religions are doing their prayers. Only when it`s a Christian.
    Which other religions have had their preachers up praying at the podium during an official government event, handys? I`ve said at least 3 times now in this thread, if it were a Muslim it would be just as unconstitutional. Or even if it was an atheist, starting off the event by telling everyone there that there probably is no God.
  144. Profile photo of Corpsecrank
    Corpsecrank Male 30-39
    930 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 6:15 pm
    Wow for once the guys filming were actually correct. I would imagine some people are going to be in serious trouble after all of this considering you have a right to object and that is all that the one person did. I also think that separation of church and state comes into play here as well.
  145. Profile photo of seabass101dg
    seabass101dg Male 18-29
    478 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 6:16 pm
    Resisting arrest is a no-no.
  146. Profile photo of seabass101dg
    seabass101dg Male 18-29
    478 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 6:18 pm
    These "protesters" are just hecklers trying to get in trouble so they can fvk with the police on tape.
  147. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 6:24 pm
    CJ, try reading the rest of his letter to Waterhouse. He does indeed state his own personal belief in God. But far more importantly, he says this:

    "I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its creed and conscience to neither kings nor priests, the genuine doctrine of one only God is reviving, and I trust that there is not a _young man_ now living in the United States who will not die an Unitarian."

    See that bit? Surrendered its creed and conscience to neither kings nor priests. And yet you`re claiming that he didn`t intend the USA and its constitution to be secular? He may have been a believer himself, and is clearly optimistic that more people will convert, but emphatically did NOT want priests involved in the creed or conscience of the government.
  148. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 6:29 pm
    yanging-"When governments allow religion to intermingle with their affairs, it violates the constitution."

    Sorry, but the Supreme Court does not agree with you. They have continually found that opening government sessions with a prayer to be constitutional. Reversing several lower courts who said otherwise.

    PSURyan-"By choosing one religion to open every session, you are Establishing that that religion with the states power."

    This video is not what researchers would consider a `representative sample`. We only know that THIS session was opened with a pastor of THIS religion. The day before it may have been a Buddhist (after all, many Hawaiians are Buddhist).

    PSURyan-"What is not alright is that the STATE mandates that the session be opened with a prayer or observance of any religion."

    The prayer was not `mandated`. No one was commanded to participate. It was offered. Participation was voluntary. Other than
  149. Profile photo of Kougaiji
    Kougaiji Male 18-29
    604 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 6:38 pm
    so if a catholic sermon was offered throughout the entire congress and everyone told those who disagreed to not participate or leave, would you still feel that it`s not "mandated"? A government shouldn`t use public facilities to preach religion. And yes, by choosing a religion, a prayer, and personally tell it to the masses on a note unrelated to the agenda at hand, you are preaching.
  150. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 6:40 pm
    The prayer was not `mandated`. No one was commanded to participate. It was offered.
    But nothing was offered for anyone of any religious belief other than Christianity. Therefore, they are putting those believers above others. How you cannot understand this is beyond me.

    Use your imagination and substitute the preacher for an imam telling you there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet. Or Richard Dawkins telling you there is no God, every time the government meets.
  151. Profile photo of SilverThread
    SilverThread Male 30-39
    3431 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 6:48 pm
    Seabass called it.
  152. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 6:56 pm
    @almightybob1

    I did not read your past threads. However every legislation opening has always had one religious leader coming in and offering a local prayer. Be it Hawaiian Kahuna, Buddhist monk. Muslim Cleric or Christian official etc. They rotate out of courtesy. It`s a historical fact, and has been challenged before. In fact by Hawaiian sovereign activists who felt their religion was being excluded back in when sovereignty was a major issue before the creation of OHA.

    The lawyer claims the two men are right about separation of church and state. However this has been challenged as well back in past decades. It has failed and backed allowed by the State Supreme Court. It was challenged in Federal and failed because it`s a states rights issue that is allowed in the State Constitution. It`s not going to change. Hawaiians are more religious than you may think. They believe in everyones rights to happiness. If you don`t like it leave the islands. That`s what locals will t
  153. Profile photo of strangersdk
    strangersdk Male 18-29
    33 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 7:00 pm
    MeGrendel, troll drating harder.

    Even if it WAS just one time, it doesn`t matter.
    It also doesn`t matter if it was `offered` as you say. Praying before high school football games (public schools, not private) has been banned by the Supreme Court - and those prayers were simply offered, not mandated.
    The Supreme Court does not have a history of siding with religion. Do some research.
    Favoring one religion is unconstitutional.
    The protesters reacted in a different way than I would have, yes, but the prayer was unconstitutional. Throwing them out because they were being unruly is justified, though.
  154. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 7:05 pm
    @almightybob1

    continued...

    will tell you. No religious prayer is mandated. it is courtesy by local custom and allowed by local law.

    Let me explain it once again for all the haoles. Whether you like it or not many Hawaiians consider it courtesy and rude to exclude such ceremonies whther you outsiders maybe unacconstemd. Fact is the only ones that make trouble are the f- haoles that come to Hawaii with visions of Polynesian syndrome of the Movie Blue Hawaii. Fact is they come here then don`t like what they see and want to change it to their European colonialistic ways. Which flat out pisses off the locals, and they want to basically not just beat you, but kill you. Get it? This island is very close to being 2 seperate nations soon. Hawaiian Kingdom and US state. It`s political dynamics that basically none of the haloes understand.
  155. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 7:23 pm
    almightybob1 -“But nothing was offered for anyone of any religious belief other than Christianity”

    You’re basing this on that one filmclip. A little research and you will find that other religions and other concepts have been used to open the Hawaiian Legislature, including Buddhist and even Hula song of Aloha.

    Kougaiji-“ everyone told those who disagreed to not participate or leave”

    They were told neither of these things. I’ve stood respectively by while others expressed their faith in prayer. Doesn’t bother me at all.

    strangersdk-‘ before high school football games (public schools, not private) has been banned by the Supreme Court”

    Yes, but this video did not take place at a high-school football game. Supreme Court decisions to date concerning prayer at the beginning of government meetings (such as in the video) state that it is constitutional. That may change, but for now THAT is
  156. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33127 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 7:32 pm
    @iceblack - No worries! It was "due process" you were thinking of, right?

    @piperfawn - Yes, I`m well aware thanks. Henry Kissenger IS a war criminal for his role in Chile, eh?
    And the Former Soviet Union has 10X as much blood on their hands, and China has 100X. Doesn`t make it right; Nixon and Kissenger were still criminals; I`m just saying I`m well aware of many nations and their vile histories...
  157. Profile photo of LtFurpie
    LtFurpie Male 30-39
    1013 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 7:36 pm
    "Believe as I do or else..." I hate effing religion! Legally the activists were in fact disrupting the proceedings, but the other fat hawaii-ites over reacted too. Bottom line was that religion was still the instigating factor.
  158. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 7:40 pm
    Here I`m going to throw a curve to all you separate religion from government supporters out there. I personally do not care, but for all the soapbox spouters here you go.

    Do you think the Feds with your tax dollars should support this national park?

    http://www.nps.gov/puhe/index.htm

    It`s a Hawaiian religious temple

    Do you also think that when Hawaiians drive up to the toll window of Volcano`s National Park. They should be free to enter when they cite religious ceremony at Halemaumau crater? Even though tourists are charged.

  159. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 7:47 pm
    Prayer at an opening session of any legislative body is not unconstitutional. It is not the state establishing a religion, or making a law to that effect.

    Obama took his oath of office on Lincoln`s bible and The Supreme Court has Moses and the Ten commandments in it`s architecture.

    The fact still remains, No one is forced to pray and the US Government has not established any particular religion.
  160. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 7:52 pm
    handys003: Found at your link,

    FREE ADMISSION

    Educational Programs (elementary-college) must be scheduled in advance.

    (Non-educational guided tours are available for groups of 10 or more at $2.00 per person.)

    For more information or to schedule your group, contact the Park Visitor Center at (808) 882-7218 Ext. 1011.

    It seems only guided tours are charged $2 per person, Otherwise admission is free for everyone.
  161. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4916 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 7:57 pm
    5Cats kissinger is just one, but if you want to look further you will see that evry region in south and central america was touched by the same attention by U.S. A brief history of . You can say what you want on China and Russia but mine was an answer to your specific point. In any case to stayng on topic is not the case to fall on old discussion between left and right or between east and west, here we are discussing if is acceptaple that in a secular pubblic istitution ,that must represent the whole population, there will be any kind of religious intervention.
  162. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 8:09 pm
    @Carjack

    Pu`ukohola Heiau is free. However I`m referring to it`s designation as an national park and gets federal tax money supported by National Parks rangers. Where I was implying on getting in free on religious grounds is Halemaumau Crater aka Volcano Nat`l Park. It`s $10.00 per car load. However if you look Hawaiian and inform the ranger at the booth you are going in on religious ceremonial rite they let you in free. This is a local known fact.
  163. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 8:17 pm
    @CarJack
    I should clarify better as Pu`ukohol is a Natioal site. Not park but is supported by NP Rangers and Fed Tax Money. it is Federally operated. Volcano NP is 80 miles away. Now you can go view the lava flow for free as it`s spread to county land and you can get to it another way without paying but the main crater is in the NP.
  164. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 8:25 pm
    handys003: Much of the interior of the Hawaiian Islands are national parks, Mainly to protect endangered species. There are also national parks in the continental US where American Indians have tribal ceremonies as well, I don`t know if they are charged or not.
  165. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 8:26 pm
    handy003: "@CarJack" I`m hoping that`s just a misspelling and not a troll attempt.
  166. Profile photo of ElDavo
    ElDavo Male 18-29
    2149 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 8:51 pm
    The argument here isn`t even about religion anymore. It`s all about geography. You go, IAB.
  167. Profile photo of inaria
    inaria Female 18-29
    1515 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 8:55 pm
    No government body should begin a session with prayer. I don`t know if it`s actually unconstitutional, but in a country that`s supposed to separate church and state, it`s very hypocritical.
  168. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 9:00 pm
    inaria: Your country still has the Queen of England, Head of the Church of England, And "Dei Gratia" Latin for "By the grace of God" on it`s coinage.

    So please don`t be hypocritical.
  169. Profile photo of Kougaiji
    Kougaiji Male 18-29
    604 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 9:04 pm
    HOW ABOUT THE FACT THEY THEY WERE ARRESTED, ASSAULTED, AND ATTACKED FOR SPEAKING OUT OF TURN AT A PUBLIC MEETING
  170. Profile photo of Feuyaer
    Feuyaer Male 18-29
    56 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 9:07 pm
    Lol.
    Christians fail so hard.
  171. Profile photo of TheWaffle
    TheWaffle Male 18-29
    117 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 9:12 pm
    @CrakrJak- good call with the Canada stuff.

    I don`t agree at all with what those morons in there did. I can understand not agreeing with a religion, but c`mon, why disrupt everyone else with your disagreement? The Founding Fathers started their meetings with prayer and mentioned `God` or `Creator` numerous times in their documents. I don`t agree that any religion should ever be pushed onto someone, but let`s have some civility when expressing ourselves here.
    That said, I also disagree with the way they were treated by the suits and guards/cops (don`t know). That was completely uncalled for and I hope they press charges against them.
    In closing, I hate working and going to school. I wish I would just win the lottery.

    Thank you,
    TheWaffle
  172. Profile photo of crudson
    crudson Male 18-29
    589 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 9:13 pm
    Amen?
  173. Profile photo of coffeekoneko
    coffeekoneko Female 18-29
    1008 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 9:17 pm
    Crakrjak:"inaria: Your country still has the Queen of England, Head of the Church of England, And "Dei Gratia" Latin for "By the grace of God" on it`s coinage.

    So please don`t be hypocritical."

    How is being opposed to this hypocritical? I suppose you would have her apologize for being Canadian? Or perhaps move to France?

  174. Profile photo of adlinbaby
    adlinbaby Female 18-29
    404 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 9:39 pm
    dratin losers, they need to find better things to do like go on the internet xDD
  175. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33127 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 9:39 pm
    I totally agree @piperfawn, every country in the USA "sphere of influence" has been harmed by them, including Canada, eh? But specifically, Kissenger was "caught red handed" (sorry for the pun) by some of the Nixon tapes as he knowingly supported murder and torture in Chile. Sickening! He`s a war criminal who should be in prison for life. Nixon too, except he`s already dead.

    @CrakrJak I`m thinking it`s a typo or abbreviation, lolz! @handys003 seems like a nice fellow :)
    Sorry @inaria, Crakr`s got you there! We Canadains have NO "seperation" eh? Just look at our TWO national anthems! God save our land, m-kay? And how about "Carry high the Cross" which is specifically Catholic? French-Catholic no less...
  176. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33127 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 9:45 pm
    @kougaiji - don`t let reality interfere with that lib-tard fantasy of yours, eh?
    @adlinbaby - Lolz! I`m liking your style! and your... glasses!
  177. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 10:06 pm
    These hippies should get a bath, with all that filthiness
    on their ears they can`t listen to the word of God...

    Can I get an Amen!?
  178. Profile photo of nnotdead
    nnotdead Male 18-29
    139 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 10:54 pm
    no debate needed. first guy should have been taken out of the room, and the second guy shouldn`t have been assaulted.
  179. Profile photo of RyanHake
    RyanHake Male 18-29
    2690 posts
    December 7, 2010 at 11:03 pm
    Idiots.
  180. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 1:33 am
    @CrakrJak replied:
    Tuesday, December 07, 2010 8:26:37 PM
    handy003: "@CarJack" I`m hoping that`s just a misspelling and not a troll attempt.

    handys003 responded:


    OOPS! My bad. It was not intentional to mispell your handle. You know us locals are lolo at times. I did not respond sooner. I had a meeting with my with a voyaging society group and just saw this.
  181. Profile photo of number43
    number43 Male 70 & Over
    759 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 1:39 am
    There is no constitutional separation between church and state. That is a myth. The bill of rights guarantees you the right to freely hold your own beliefs, that`s all. It doesn`t guarantee that yours, or lack there of, is the only one allowed to be recognized.

    The point of this whole video is that the first guy disrupted a public meeting, which is illegal. If he wanted to debate the issue then he should have raised it when he was recognized to do so. That`s against the law, and therefore he`s arrested. It looks like, from the video, that he then tried to break free from the police and got tackled for it. Looks right to me. I don`t know what`s going on with the camera man though. They should have left him alone, but who knows who those guys in the suits were. They could be congressmen or average citizens.

    Bottom line. It`s annoying when people blatantly break the law and then scream "POLICE STATE" when they are arrested for it.

    LtFurpie, the guy yel
  182. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 1:47 am
    @CrakrJak replied:
    handys003: Much of the interior of the Hawaiian Islands are national parks, Mainly to protect endangered species. There are also national parks in the continental US where American Indians have tribal ceremonies as well, I don`t know if they are charged or not.

    handys003 responded:
    Actually it`s the State parks that are known for such not National. The NP has no parks in the interior unless you want to say Halemaumau and Haleakal are interior. However both those Volcanos sit next to the ocean. Pu`ukohola national site sits right next to Kawaihae harbor where I just came from discussing the Makali`i (Hawaiian voyaging canoe) coming fundraiser. It is a religious temple where Kamehameha slayed his rival Ali`i from the south and sacrificed him to Ku as directed by a prophecy by a Kahuna. It also has an underwater temple next to it dedicated to the Amakuas. Pu`uhonua -Honaunau is a NP dedicated toward the Hawaiian heritage of known as City of Refuge.
  183. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 1:54 am
    @CrakrJak

    continued.... Think of it like a temporary purgatory from the kapuu`s broken (forbidden rules) or an enemy escaping the Ali`i`s wrath and getting salvation from death for a time period to which you are paroled after a year. Kaloko is an NP that is remnants of an ancient Hawaiian village pre-Marquesas invasion dating to 700AD with an ancient wall built to act as a fish pond. None of these is designed for endangered species.

    The only thing I can think of that might have you confused is the Northern Hawaiian islands National Marine Reserve designed to protect the marine life in and on islands north of Niihau. That was enacted by GWB several years ago.

  184. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 2:01 am
    @number43

    Actually they were both acquitted. It was ruled by a state judge that they were innocent of not doing anything illegal. Go figure
  185. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 2:03 am
    @5Cats replied:
    @CrakrJak I`m thinking it`s a typo or abbreviation, lolz! @handys003 seems like a nice fellow :)

    handys003 responded:
    Mahalo ala nui! Too bad the mods think I`m not nice.
  186. Profile photo of Tisjokar
    Tisjokar Male 18-29
    985 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 3:24 am
    my jaw is on teh ground
  187. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 3:25 am
    Mahalo ala nui! Too bad the mods think I`m not nice.
    That`s not true. I`m sure everyone here is a nice person who I would probably get on very well with if I ever met them IRL.
    Except davymid.
  188. Profile photo of PierreJeanFR
    PierreJeanFR Male 40-49
    1360 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 3:36 am
    this is so wrong.
    USA! USA!
  189. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 4:58 am
    @CrakrJak

    "Your country still has the Queen of England, Head of the Church of England, And "Dei Gratia" Latin for "By the grace of God" on it`s coinage."

    Ah, so that`s how America works? You don`t strive for greatness. You just excuse your failings by pointing out the failings of others.

    Gotcha.
  190. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 5:01 am
    @TheWaffle

    Here, let me correct your statement for you:

    "I don`t agree at all with what those morons in there did. I can understand not agreeing with AN OPPRESSIVE IMPERIAL GOVERNMENT, but c`mon, why disrupt everyone else with your disagreement?"

    That whole "War of Independence" thing was a pretty big disruption over a disagreement. Can I take it, then, that you support rejoining the British Empire?
  191. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 5:06 am
    @number43

    "The point of this whole video is that the first guy disrupted a public meeting, which is illegal"

    I doubt it`s illegal. Refusing to leave the property when asked is, but it`s hard to tell if he was asked and refused to leave voluntarily, or if the staff went straight to the physical ejection.

    Incidentally, I couldn`t tell: were the people dragging them out police officers?
  192. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 5:11 am
    @CrakrJak

    "Prayer at an opening session of any legislative body is not unconstitutional."

    I agree.

    But your Constitution is not the be all and end all document for running your country.

    If the Constitution doesn`t proscribe it, that doesn`t automatically make it acceptable.

    Regardless of what the Constitution says, there`s a strong basis of seperation of church and state in your country, and things like this fly square in the face of that ethos.
  193. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 5:18 am
    Anyway, at the base of this whole issue is the thing I`ve repeatedly pointed out; that prayer COST TAXPAYER MONEY: for the duration of the prayer, all the costs involved in lighting, heating/cooling, security and staff wages were being used to provide a venue for the prayer.

    So tell me, in an era of MASSIVE economic crisis and major government and private sector debt, how was using even a small part of the limited time, manpower, and money resources of this government facility for a prayer the best use of the taxpayer`s money?

    The time could better have been spent engaged in the actual business of GOVERNMENT!

    What would you say if instead of a prayer, they had a quick game of Ping Pong at the front there before each session? Would you be happy to see time and money wasted on that?

    At the end of the day, this is about non-government business being performed in a government venue, on government time, with public money. That`s not on.
  194. Profile photo of chrn368
    chrn368 Male 18-29
    174 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 9:22 am
    First of all a prayer in the beginning of a public meeting like that technically is unconstitutional and they had every right to object. Secondly I hope every person that touched them gets fired and whoever is in charge of that institution is sued.
  195. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36855 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 10:01 am
    I love our "tolerant" society and it`s motto "ZERO Tolerance".

    You`re allowed to pray, it`s not unconstitutional.
    Hell, you could cast spells or invoke Wikan authority over the wind if you wanted to. Probably be just as affective as prayer.
  196. Profile photo of BigMordecai
    BigMordecai Male 18-29
    94 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 10:55 am
    I thought opening prayers were a standard thing but they could include inviting anybody...like Congress with the Hindu prayer, though people objected. If you use the words of the Constitution it certainly does not break that. Some other ruling, it may break that, but certainly not the constitution. Meh either way though, its not something to really care about as it is not particularly disruptive in and of itself. They could have an opening breaking of wind, but it matters little.
    However, those people did what they did expecting to get thrown out by acting disruptively then they had to be forcibly removed. It is one thing to place a formal objection, a whole other to just start yelling in the middle of proceedings. If one is ignored, it is hardly proper to continue howling, but you must file a complaint. It is not an anarchy or some classroom, it is a government meeting and thus the proper channels must be used.
  197. Profile photo of number43
    number43 Male 70 & Over
    759 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 11:22 am
    Musuko42, You`re right. I didn`t check Hawaii State Laws before posting. It`s not a specific crime in Hawaii. The law does state, paraphrased, anyone who disrupts a public meeting may be ejected from the meeting. I don`t have a Hawaii law book with me and the internet is hit or miss when it comes to statute, or I`d be more specific.

    As for your assumption that there is a basis for a seperation between church and state. Look at the comments of the US members of this website, there`s a very healthy debate on the issue. I wouldn`t call that a "basis".
  198. Profile photo of NoArms5534
    NoArms5534 Male 18-29
    196 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 12:30 pm
    Geniuses of IAB, please note that the very first meetings of the Federal Congress (you know, the one where the folks who were involved with writing the Constitution were involved) we also opened with prayer. If the guys who wrote the Constitution believe that it was okay to open Federal meetings with prayer, how could it be unconstitutional?
  199. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36855 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 1:07 pm
    @ NoArms5534 - Those guys are all dead now. See where it got them!
  200. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 4:27 pm
    @NoArms5534

    It`s not a matter of being constitutional. It`s a matter of being right.

    It`s not right to have state-sponsered religion (it cost money to provide that platform: all the costs involved in lighting, heating/cooling, security and staff wages for the duration of the prayer), regardless of what the Constitution says about it.
  201. Profile photo of Locke357
    Locke357 Male 18-29
    128 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 5:40 pm
    I don`t give a poo about what the US constitution says, state-endorsed religion is effing close to being like Islamic countries
  202. Profile photo of IndigoIndigo
    IndigoIndigo Male 18-29
    29 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 6:07 pm
    Mixing church and state tends to lend to bad things (war, death, bias or pissing off the neighborhood terrorist). I see the point the "morons" were trying to get across, "active objection", but I disagree with the circumstance it is employed. You should only put your foot down and break the law when something important is at risk. Important, meaning your life and freedom or that of your child. Just shut the drat up and raise the matter in a civil way. If it makes you feel better, don`t bow your head and give the speaker a snearing glare.
    As for the guy with the camera, I have no idea. Maybe police officers instinctively don`t like camera filming them as much as we would (or do).
  203. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 9:32 pm
    I don`t understand why everyone has to make a big deal out of things. Just don`t participate in the prayer. Why make a scene? Let the Christians have their fun and then move on with the serious.
  204. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 10:33 pm
    @Musuko42

    #1 Where is the US Congress is supporting stat-run religion? You ever heard it`s just being courteous to include such as prayer?

    #2 Who gave you authority to determine from Europe what my right is as a US citizen. Such presumption! It`s also what we fought a revolution for to begin with on self-determination. We as Americans in the USA may dissent among ourselves, but Europeans have no say in determining what is our constitutional rights. Render your opinion, but don`t dictate what is right to us. Got it brah!?

    I don`t go telling subjects of the realm of Great Britain how to determine their laws or other countries the same. I expect the same respect from others.
  205. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 8, 2010 at 10:34 pm
    Ditto to Locke357 as well
  206. Profile photo of Nerd_Rage
    Nerd_Rage Male 18-29
    425 posts
    December 9, 2010 at 12:08 am
    @ handys003

    Separation of church and state much? and that rant was totally unnecessary.
  207. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 9, 2010 at 1:18 am
    @Nerd
    Yes I totally believe in separation of c and s.

    Second that was a mild diatribe compared to what I can release.
  208. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 9, 2010 at 2:04 am
    @handys003

    "#1 Where is the US Congress is supporting stat-run religion? You ever heard it`s just being courteous to include such as prayer?"

    Why should the taxpayer foot the bill for a pointless courtesy that doesn`t even include everyone present?

    If the prayer was, instead, a KKK speech about white power, what then? All still okay?

    "I don`t go telling subjects of the realm of Great Britain how to determine their laws or other countries the same."

    Ahem. Iraq? Afghanistan? Korea? Vietnam? Chile? Cuba?

    You`re right. You don`t just tell other countries how to run themselves. You tell them and you invade them (and recently, to my lingering shame, you`ve been bringing my country along for the ride).

    So be careful casting those stones, mister. When it comes to trying to interfere with the running of other countries, yours has one of the dirtiest records of the modern age.
  209. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 9, 2010 at 2:07 am
    @HalfPintRoo

    "I don`t understand why everyone has to make a big deal out of things. Just don`t participate in the prayer. Why make a scene? Let the Christians have their fun and then move on with the serious."

    Again, it`s a big deal because they`re being made to pay for it: the lighting, heating/cooling, and staff wages for the duration of the prayer were all effectively being spent to provide a religious service.

    It`s a small amount each time, but over the year it adds up. And this is during a recession, with major government budget shortfalls.

    So yes, it is a big deal to have a government body engaging in non-government duties on the taxpayer`s dime.
  210. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 9, 2010 at 2:15 am
    @Musuko42
    In regards to taxpayer footing the bill. It doesn`t cost anything to open with a prayer or Hawaiian Chant etc.. it`s still meeting in session prayer or not.

    Second I agree with you on casting stones regarding my country. However I`m talking in retrospect toward individuals telling me how my rights should be interpreted in my country. I don`t tell a Brit or Canadian how to live by their laws. Personally speaking I think the USA should butt out of other countries as well. Clearer now for you? Also I wouldn`t have a problem if the KKK came in or Black Panthers or the Sons of Hawaii spoke to Congress. They are taxpayers and have that right.
  211. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 9, 2010 at 2:37 am
    @Musuko42
    Oh and BTW I could go into a diatribe about European Colonialism and it`s aserrtion of politics and wars both present and past troughout the world. It`s just not the USA alone. Don`t even get me started.
  212. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 9, 2010 at 6:10 am
    @handys003

    "Oh and BTW I could go into a diatribe about European Colonialism and it`s aserrtion of politics and wars both present and past troughout the world. It`s just not the USA alone. Don`t even get me started."

    I didn`t say anything about my own country being innocent of it, did I? I just countered handys003s assertion:

    "I don`t go telling subjects of the realm of Great Britain how to determine their laws or other countries the same."

    Being clearly false, as that`s exactly what his country DOES do. I didn`t say my country does not do that.

    If anything, Britain was as far greater offender, and still is (with reach only limited by ability, not desire, most likely).
  213. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 9, 2010 at 6:11 am
    "In regards to taxpayer footing the bill. It doesn`t cost anything to open with a prayer or Hawaiian Chant etc.. it`s still meeting in session prayer or not."

    The way I see it, the meeting could have been a few minutes shorter without the prayer. That`s a few minutes that can be spent doing something more productive...something that is, you know, actually to do with GOVERNMENT.

    Using the time for prayer is a waste of government resources.
  214. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 9, 2010 at 6:20 am
    @handys003

    "I don`t tell a Brit or Canadian how to live by their laws."

    That`s your choice not to. But you have the right to tell us how to live if you wanted to. Free speech and all that.

    I`d still have the right to ignore you, and you`d have no right to actually enforce your opinion. But you have every right to express it.

    And I have every right to express mine.

    "Also I wouldn`t have a problem if the KKK came in or Black Panthers or the Sons of Hawaii spoke to Congress. They are taxpayers and have that right."

    In that case, shouldn`t podium time be allowed to any and all people that wanted it? Wouldn`t that end up taking a very large amount of that government`s time? After all, what if a million people all wanted the same amount of speaking time as that preacher got? It would be unfair to deny them.

    So tell me; why does the preacher get to speak, but Joe Schmoe does not?
  215. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 9, 2010 at 6:24 am
    Notably, when does that protester get his few minutes on that podium?

    The preacher is not an elected official. He is simply a member of public. So if he`s getting a few minutes to speak on that podium, then that right must also be extended to every single other member of public in that state.

    Otherwise, you have to explain why that preacher gets this special right and others do not. And if it`s because he`s a representative of a religion...bingo, there you have a government providing a platform for a church, and supporting it.

    Remember as I said before; lighting, heating/cooling, and staff wages. By providing that preacher the podium, they`re providing him a free "church" and a captive audience.

    Come to the land of the free, where in order to participate in your democracy you MUST sit through a religious service!
  216. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 9, 2010 at 9:37 pm
    @Musuko42

    Sorry not to get back sooner. Busy today. Nice to know you recognize the evils of countries.

    Your trying to micro manage a Legislative process. Fact that federal congress has many times gone several days non-stop. There is no time-limit, Many states are like that as well. In Texas where I originally come from the Governor can actually lock the members of both houses into assembly until they come to a resolution on a bill. I do mean physically lock and key them inside the chamber. Crazy huh? In Hawaii The House meets for sessions in the morning and afternoons for several weeks then dismisses for the year to fly to their homes as some have outer islands. They also have no set time. It`s agreed upon by motion. It will cost no more money to have an Invocation or speaker. Sometimes you need to understand that it`s due to courtesy as a member of such will ask for a speaker. It is up to motion and discretion on that legislative body. A few may get bent out of shap
  217. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 9, 2010 at 9:45 pm
    However as I stated in my very first post on this subject. The matter has been challenged before. By our systems of checks and balances been through Hawaii Supreme Court and ruled okay for Hawaii Congress. It was challenged on Federal scale and okay`d by the US Supreme Court. it has gone it;s full route of process. There is nothing that any one who asserts such can do about it. Once the highest court rules ballgame over. Soo all this hot air of whether it`s wrong or not is irrelevant. Final authority has ruled and too bad so sad for those and the rest of the world if they don`t like it. sometimes the poo hits the face.

    Now what sets me off is whane outsiders like to tell Americans what their rights should be. I don`t mind an opinon offered but not dictated terms to which you and several from Europe seem to do. Your using Global perspevtive.
  218. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 9, 2010 at 9:47 pm
    It comes across that your asserting your Nationalistic ideals upon me and my countrymen as I see so many from other countries do often. I got news for you that is what pisses off an American more. Just like you we prefer to be asked and not told.
  219. Profile photo of alpensepp
    alpensepp Male 70 & Over
    1364 posts
    December 10, 2010 at 7:59 am
    hm. why is session of law makers opened by a christian prayer? thats wrong.
  220. Profile photo of Syris
    Syris Male 13-17
    219 posts
    December 10, 2010 at 3:01 pm
    "separation of church and state"
  221. Profile photo of ROK9
    ROK9 Male 18-29
    1834 posts
    December 13, 2010 at 10:18 pm
    damn that is just wrong
  222. Profile photo of BootneckBaz
    BootneckBaz Male 30-39
    17 posts
    January 25, 2011 at 2:53 pm
    Good on you guys!

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