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Date: 12/14/10 04:30 PM

105 Responses to Michael Moore Explains His Support for Wikileaks

  1. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 4:24 pm
    Link: Michael Moore Explains His Support for Wikileaks - Michael Moore helps fund Julian Assange`s bond. Turns out his support and call for local support hurt more than helped.
  2. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36656 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 4:52 pm
    WikiLeaks... they claim they`re fighting for free speach and other stuff but in fact are just cyber-thugs

    Sara Palin exercised her free speach calling Asange an "anit-american operative".... she was hack-attacked and her credit card info stolen

    PayPal and Mastercard both chose not to support WiliLeaks sights so they were both Hack-Attacked by WikiStaff...

    Seems they only believe in free speach when it agrees with them.

    shoot the bastard
  3. Profile photo of thecoolhair
    thecoolhair Male 30-39
    101 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 4:59 pm
    @Gerry for one thing, you comment on EVER SINGLE POST ON THIS SITE, whatthedratman

    Secondly, Assange didn`t say "HACK THE BITCH" He just lay passive. He is but a messanger
  4. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 5:01 pm
    shoot the bastard
    Shooting the messenger doesn`t stop the information coming. Another person will simply take his place.

    If anything, they need to stop the leaks. In other words... Seriously, buff up security, you `tards!

    You`re so worried about tapping into everyone else`s phone lines, you forget to protect your own...
  5. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 5:05 pm
    No I don`t think MM contributions hurt or would have made a difference in determining his bail. IMHO I believe he would have been denied based on the flight risk he posed alone. Furthermore. I believe Julian was set up to begin with and all was planned ahead a time for his demise. He`s a walking dead man already.
  6. Profile photo of KitFox
    KitFox Female 30-39
    595 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 5:07 pm
    Where are you hearing that it hurt more than helped? Even though Michael Moore is on the far left side, he always makes an effing good point.
  7. Profile photo of IshiiDaFishy
    IshiiDaFishy Male 18-29
    773 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 5:08 pm
    `Hack-Attacked by Wikistaff`

    Gerry, are you saying that Wikileaks hired the entire userbase of fourchan?
  8. Profile photo of bigfatdynamo
    bigfatdynamo Male 30-39
    259 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 5:33 pm
    Dip derp dooorp. Conspiracy derp. Dip derp doorp. Wikileaks derp. Michael Moore derp dip doorp. Doooooooooooooooooooooerp.
  9. Profile photo of LemonTarte
    LemonTarte Female 18-29
    1441 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 5:33 pm
    Maybe this isn`t the time or place by I`ve been finding myself uncomfortably attracted to Julian Assange.
  10. Profile photo of msieg007
    msieg007 Male 18-29
    2035 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 5:34 pm
    If I could paraphrase Tommy Lee Jones:

    "There`s always something threatening our way of life. The only way people get on with it is they DO NOT KNOW ABOUT IT."
  11. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 5:52 pm
    This just in! Assange granted bail. However Sweden appeals so in jail he sits another 48 hours.

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/12/14/uk.assange.hearing/index.html?section=cnn_latest
  12. Profile photo of addler
    addler Male 13-17
    777 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 6:04 pm
    yeah, i wouldn`t want the greatest idiot in the world supporting me in anything to be honest. I would tell MM id rather handle it alone
  13. Profile photo of EricWRN
    EricWRN Male 30-39
    590 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 6:10 pm
    SHWEW - I was getting worried that I agreed with Michael Moore on something... at least his reasons are batpoo weird and mine are on principle
  14. Profile photo of EricWRN
    EricWRN Male 30-39
    590 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 6:14 pm
    madest, let me get this straight, you`re mad about a $250M naval weapon project but you have no problem with the government spending billions on highway refurbishment?
  15. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 6:21 pm
    I do believe that Assange`s activities should be protected by the first Amendment. He is not stealing or leaking secret documents himself. He merely offers secrecy to those who do want to go public with classified info; all news organizations protect their sources of sensitive material. What separates Wikileaks from other news sources, is that they don`t bend to the will of any government- and according to the principle of a free press, the government should have no power to tell the press what can and cannot be published.

    However, Michael Moore`s claims are pretty hyperbolic and crazy. I don`t think Bush would have had any trouble invading Iraq had Wikileaks been around. Though Moore`s still not as crazy as the people who believe that Assange a terrorist.
  16. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 6:24 pm
    "madest, let me get this straight, you`re mad about a $250M naval weapon project but you have no problem with the government spending billions on highway refurbishment?"

    To be fair, spending money on highway refurbishment is a far better use of taxpayer dollars. One, because far more taxpayers are going to directly benefit from highway and other infrastructure projects. Two, because far more jobs will be created by such projects which will directly help those who work those jobs, and stimulate the economy since those people will go out and spend what they earn.
  17. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 6:30 pm
    meh...
  18. Profile photo of xiquiripat
    xiquiripat Male 18-29
    2422 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 6:46 pm
    In a just world Michael Moore and Ann Coulter would be forced to marry and listen to each other`s B.S. all day long.
  19. Profile photo of EricWRN
    EricWRN Male 30-39
    590 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 6:46 pm
    Um, you don`t have to fight their wars in order to need a military to protect you... but that`s neither here nor there - my only point about this "waste" of money (it`s pretty minor as far as government/ military wastes of money), is that the military is VERY prolific when it comes to innovation (eg, the internet). Second, it`s pretty hilarious that you honestly don`t give a poo about the government spending money unless it`s something you don`t support - typical kool-aid drinking american :)
  20. Profile photo of EricWRN
    EricWRN Male 30-39
    590 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 6:49 pm
    sbeelz: creating temporary jobs to fix things that aren`t broken doesn`t benefit anything or help anyone, the entire concept is so ridiculous it`s almost laughable (if it weren`t costing SO much money!)
  21. Profile photo of thebandit
    thebandit Male 18-29
    362 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 7:13 pm
    buffing an already op army is pointless
  22. Profile photo of GuardinGnome
    GuardinGnome Male 18-29
    2893 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 7:17 pm
    Michael Moore can suck a donkey`s c*ck.
  23. Profile photo of 8BitHero
    8BitHero Male 18-29
    5414 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 7:25 pm
    Go Moore!
  24. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 7:36 pm
    madest: Seriously, with all you THINK you know, the fact that you work CONSTRUCTION means one very important thing: That you have NO IDEA how to take something (your supposed intellect) and capitalize on it. You`re also a self-professed stoner, which means you waste money on something that, quite literally, goes up in smoke, for a very TEMPORARY high.

    Combined with a lot of your other views, I would say you have no idea how money works on any larger scale than that of your one insignificant little life, and barely that. I wouldn`t take PERSONAL budget advice from you if you offered it, let alone budget advice for an entire COUNTRY.
  25. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 8:41 pm
    @EricWRN-
    I wasn`t suggesting we should fix anything that`s not broken- but the infrastructure in this country needs some serious work. Our rail system is about 50 years behind the rest of the civilized world, bridges are falling into rivers, and oh yeah- New Orleans ended up under water because nobody wanted to spend the money to fix the levies.

    If you think that spending money on infrastructure projects in the US amounts to "fixing things that aren`t broken," you need to get your head out of your ass and look around.
  26. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36656 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 9:16 pm
    "Gerry, are you saying that Wikileaks hired the entire userbase of fourchan?"

    ... Asange initially denied it, then changed his mind and endoresed their actions on his behalf.

    @ thecoolhair, no actually of the last 35 posts I commented on 12 of them. A lot perhaps, but hardly " EVERY SINGLE POST ON THIS SITE "

    People that steal government secrets are called Spies. ... Even if they publish on the web. Even if they have good motives. Even if no matter what, it`s Espionage and he should be treated as such.
  27. Profile photo of ShadowDD13
    ShadowDD13 Male 18-29
    260 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 9:27 pm
    i dont get why it hurt... yea hes a jackass who thinks theres conspiracy theories everywhere sometimes... but this is something that can be fully supported and completely agreed upon, hes not saying hes innocent, hes just saying there should be a fair trial and his actions are just since there is in fact no good journalism in this country anymore, just a lot of corrupt bullpoo politicians and government, especially the president voted in because he was half black... whole lotta change going on... to make this a police state that is
  28. Profile photo of Volsunga
    Volsunga Male 18-29
    1548 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 9:32 pm
    Julian Assange is neither hero nor villain. He`s an irresponsible journalist with some batpoo conspiracy theories.
    He`s not a threat to anyone. The people doing the cyber attacks are just /b/tards that don`t understand the issues and think he`s some free speech god. What is a threat is people like Bradley Manning who steal classified information. He needs to be made an example of and we need to buff up our security.
  29. Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 9:50 pm
    Gerry1of1
    "Sara Palin ...was hack-attacked and her credit card info stolen "

    Had nothing to do with Wikileaks, besides the fact that they revealed she was illegally using a private e-mail for government work. One of the reasons why you`re not supposed to use a private e-mail account for sensitive government work is because of the security risks. Recall, if you will, Obama`s attempt to keep his Blackberry- widely considered one of the most secure devices, he had to get approval to use it. Sarah Palin circumvented these security precautions, violated the Open Records Act and routinely involved non-government individuals in official government business. THAT information was worth knowing- however Wikileaks had nothing to do with the hacking of her e-mail account, nor the alleged theft of her credit card information.
  30. Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 9:53 pm
    Gerry1of1
    "PayPal and Mastercard both chose not to support WiliLeaks sights so they were both Hack-Attacked by WikiStaff... "

    Again- Wikileaks had nothing to do with the attacks. The attacks, as has widely been published, has been carried out by anonymous hackers sympathetic to Wikileaks cause. Ascribing blame to Wikileaks is simple-minded correlation and not factual or accurate.

    handys003
    "I believe he would have been denied based on the flight risk he posed alone."

    Statistically, people that turn themselves in don`t run. Also- his alleged crimes (non-violent, non drug related and or a sexual nature) are not the type of crime in which bail is typically denied.

  31. Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 9:57 pm
    EricWRN
    "you`re mad about a $250M naval weapon project but you have no problem with the government spending billions on highway refurbishment?"

    Historically, Infastructure Investment, employee a great deal of people over a long period of time, improves commerce, improves mobility, improves development, improves property values, improves growth, decreases fatal accidents on public property and etc.

    New killing machines only kill more people- we`re already the best at doing that.
  32. Profile photo of TheTumor
    TheTumor Male 18-29
    552 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 10:06 pm
    LOL.


    LMAO!!


    omfg..they basicallt delcare war on the internet and you kids dont thing 4chan will fall in rank?
    drat rules 1 and 2...poo just got serial.
  33. Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 10:09 pm
    "People that steal government secrets are called Spies. ... Even if they publish on the web. Even if they have good motives. Even if no matter what, it`s Espionage and he should be treated as such."

    Wikileaks does not steal anything- they`re a portal for people that do. Additionally, when the activities leaked point to illegal activities it is justifiable; i.e. The Pentagon Papers, The Iran-Contra Affair leak, etc.

    It`s one thing to prosecute a thief, it`s another thing to prosecute the town crier. Thanks to modern advancement in human civility we have universally decided that shooting the messenger is, in fact, in bad taste.
  34. Profile photo of Cruddup
    Cruddup Male 30-39
    56 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 10:12 pm
    Whenever Michael Moore supports something, I tend to throw my support to the opposite issue, even if it`s something on which he and I may agree. I just really loathe that guy.
  35. Profile photo of EricWRN
    EricWRN Male 30-39
    590 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 10:18 pm
    sbeelz: there are 2 ARRA projects 8 miles to the North and South of my house on portions of the road that had absolutely nothing wrong with them, and another about 15 miles from my house on road that`s fine - all that money is NOT being spent on bursting levees or crumbling bridges (i`d say little to NONE of it is), if it was it MIGHT be justifiable (although the STATES should be spending their money on those) so why don`t YOU get your head out of YOUR ass and look around at what the money is ACTUALLY being spent on, idiot
  36. Profile photo of EricWRN
    EricWRN Male 30-39
    590 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 10:21 pm
    sbeelz: and go ahead and give me the figures for how much spendulous money is going into fixing our "outdated rail system".
  37. Profile photo of LtFurpie
    LtFurpie Male 30-39
    1013 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 10:26 pm
    You mean the fat fk that blamed K-Mart for the Columbine tragedy in a so-called documentary (docu-drama for those of you that are sane) is supporting this guy? Damn... Now what. He`s supporting him to get some air time so he can get more money to support his 400lb arse diet!

    ... Then make another one sided film under the guise of being a "documentary"
  38. Profile photo of EricWRN
    EricWRN Male 30-39
    590 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 10:29 pm
    sbeelz: the equal smugness and stupidity in your reply was so amazing i have to comment on it one more time... if you can find ONE ARRA project that`s fixing someone that`s literally broken i`ll be impressed, but when i "look around", all i see is a bunch of state representatives that reflect the selfish, entitlement-wanting idiots that elected them. They spend all their money on poo that`s going to get them reelected and they stick their hands out to daddy (the federal government) to GIVE them money when they NEED something (LIKE INFRASTRUCTURE WHICH ISNT THE FEDS BUSINESS). I don`t give a RATS ASS what happens in California and I can`t stand that a single penny of my tax money goes to STATE programs there. The levees breaking in NO had NOTHING to do with the federal government. So are you just one of those people who`s too stupid to know the difference between the responsibilities of state and federal government, or are you just too stupid to care there`s no difference anym
  39. Profile photo of s0rd3dvis1on
    s0rd3dvis1on Male 18-29
    2388 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 10:34 pm
    I did a little a dance
  40. Profile photo of marissameows
    marissameows Female 18-29
    171 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 11:03 pm
    publicity stunt
  41. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    December 14, 2010 at 11:06 pm
    "People that steal government secrets are called Spies"

    Spies are people that steal government secrets. Assange printed government secrets. That`s called a journalist.
  42. Profile photo of yusterdai
    yusterdai Female 18-29
    126 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 12:07 am
    Ew. All Micheal Moore is good for is spewing pure ignorance and nonsense. Him and his socialist / communist ideals can go f*ck itself. The world would be a better place if people like him werent so damn popular.
    Hate all you want but Im just keepin it real. Nothing can change my mind about that because I believe in facts.
  43. Profile photo of Lolboy
    Lolboy Male 70 & Over
    798 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 12:59 am
    yusterdai: You`re not really "keepin it real", since you presented no facts to back your point up.
  44. Profile photo of citizen_kane
    citizen_kane Male 18-29
    272 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 2:26 am
    Looks like everyone on this site is republican/conservative. Sucks for you guys, being stupid must be horrible.
  45. Profile photo of TalcumX
    TalcumX Male 50-59
    561 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 3:34 am
    no baal,that`s called an a**hole
  46. Profile photo of SlimPickins
    SlimPickins Male 18-29
    120 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 3:45 am
    wow. $20,000. that`s a lot of mcdoubles for moore to give up. I hope he has plenty more stashed somewhere for if he gets a bit peckish.
  47. Profile photo of PierreJeanFR
    PierreJeanFR Male 40-49
    1360 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 4:01 am
    @yusterdai
    Fact: you are ignorant and spewing nonsense and the world is a poo place thanks to people like you!
  48. Profile photo of splurbyburbl
    splurbyburbl Male 30-39
    2798 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 4:22 am
    I personally regard Assange as a hero. I think ten years from now he will be widely accepted as such. This is significant for me to say because I am a Marine and I know first hand that most of my peers absolutely disagree.

    I do not, however, like Mr. Moore. Only he can turn this into his own personal victory and use it to spread his version of the truth. That`s the difference between Wikileaks and Moore: Wikileaks publishes information that is unfiltered, unedited and from the perspective of any and all who originally wrote them, while Moore publishes his lone perspective. (I call that a propaganda machine)

  49. Profile photo of PierreJeanFR
    PierreJeanFR Male 40-49
    1360 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 4:28 am
    Simple fact: the republican who are the champion in evoking the 9/11 tragedy are the one refusing to give healthcare to the heroes that went there to save lives. What is wrong with these people?
    They don`t care about you and your family, so open your eyes and stop giving them support or you all go to hell.So says the lord, Amen.
  50. Profile photo of Mani-Jac
    Mani-Jac Male 40-49
    805 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 4:35 am
    Speaking from a US government point of view: Instead of worrying about whether Mr Assange committed a crime by publishing secret documents I would worry about who gave Mr Assange all those documents, how did they copy all those files and why would anybody give those files to Wikileaks.
  51. Profile photo of Listypoos
    Listypoos Male 40-49
    3069 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 5:24 am
    i`m sure a lot of people on here would switch their views if it was an american journalist publishing Iran`s secret communiques.....then it`d be ok and he could have a ticker tape parade.
  52. Profile photo of Student_Law
    Student_Law Male 30-39
    1010 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 6:50 am
    Assange is a journalist, he works as a journalist and he follows the rules of a journalist. Only problem now is that he has revealed the big lies and liers - and the power boys don`t like it.

    He hasnt broken any laws, as is proven by the fact that he hasnt been charged with anything.

    The espionage law in the US from 1917 didn`t work with the Pentagon Papers, and it shouldt work now. As the Supreme Court stated then, that USA need a free and independent press.
  53. Profile photo of 83nu
    83nu Male 40-49
    89 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 7:11 am
    Fat slug, I hope you have a massive heart attack. Hypocrite of the worst kind.
  54. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36656 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 7:14 am
    Okay, okay, okay. I will acquiesce on the Hack-Attacks. I`m sure Asange has nothing to do with them even though they only happen if someone speaks against WikiLeaks. Pure coincidence.

    But it`s still Espionage. Stealing or receiving stolen government information is a crime in every country on earth. It might be the one and only universal law on the planet. {I don`t know, maybe }

    These guys are not heros.
  55. Profile photo of Student_Law
    Student_Law Male 30-39
    1010 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 7:33 am
    @gerry1of1:

    Ah, but when you say "stealing or recieving" you make a mistake:

    Stealing these documents is illegal. This is quite obvious as the soldier who stole them is in prison in the USA. As for espionage, he is your spy - and he is in prison. Recieving however is not illegal and it is done by press agencies all over the world every day. Now, to the publishing: When you work for the government, you often sign a confideciality agreement. You waiver your constitutional right of free speech. However, a person who has not signed such document, is allowed to say what they know, especially when it is crimes done by governments. In fact, that`s the point of free speech. You may call them criminals, but by doing that you conflict with the US constitution as well as the US Supreme Court.
  56. Profile photo of Agent00Smith
    Agent00Smith Male 18-29
    2581 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 8:18 am
    I say keep em comin` assange. ANARCHY!
  57. Profile photo of level8
    level8 Male 18-29
    2 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 8:22 am
    I support wikileaks. However, Michael Moore is a dumb douche and it`s only bad press that he shall voice his support for them.
  58. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 8:25 am
    Michael Moore should stick to stuffing his face. I`m sure he see an angle to make money for himself here.
  59. Profile photo of mcfudge
    mcfudge Male 18-29
    537 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 8:32 am
    Michael Moore is a fat slob who causes problems... he would be a member of PETA if it weren`t for the fact that he eats 12 big macs per day.

    I agree with Assange, and hate rush limbaugh... but this dude will hang for this. No one seems to realize that he is not a US citizen. Our journalism laws do not apply. So everyone arguing? GO READ UP, then come back. As it stands, he can be hanged in 5 countries.
  60. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36656 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 8:41 am
    by the way, I do think the charges against Asange are bogus. an attempt to shut him up, right.

    That said, his "If you arrest or kill me I have BIG info that will be released" mentality is not the behavior of a journalist. He`s endoresed the cyber-attacks.

    He`s a thug.

    It`s the age old question, Just because you CAN do something does not mean you SHOULD do something.
  61. Profile photo of bigbaddave
    bigbaddave Male 40-49
    214 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 8:46 am
    A proven liar and a scumbag helping out another scumbag... we shouldn`t be surprised I guess.

    Moore is such a hypocrite anyway... willing to front money to get a scumbag like Assange out of jail (Even though I think Assange has the money to do it himself... you don`t live off the radar like he does without some personal wealth) but back when Moore exploited the Columbine shootings for his own personal gain, couldn`t muster a few bucks from the profits of his Columbine movie to help pay for a monument to the victims of the event.

    For Moore being an anti-capilalist, he sure makes and keeps a lot of money.
  62. Profile photo of Oystah
    Oystah Female 40-49
    4032 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 9:06 am
    Michael Moore makes me ill. I`m sure Assange is like, dude, I got it - thanks but no thanks.
  63. Profile photo of keg74
    keg74 Male 30-39
    410 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 9:13 am
    I think Michael Moore makes a very compelling arguement
  64. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 10:50 am
    @EricWRN-
    I wasn`t suggesting we should fix anything that`s not broken- but the infrastructure in this country needs some serious work. Our rail system is about 50 years behind the rest of the civilized world, bridges are falling into rivers, and oh yeah- New Orleans ended up under water because nobody wanted to spend the money to fix the levies.

    If you think that spending money on infrastructure projects in the US amounts to "fixing things that aren`t broken," you need to get your head out of your ass and look around.
  65. Profile photo of yusterdai
    yusterdai Female 18-29
    126 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 11:04 am
    Observe how most of the europeans are liberals and the majority of americans on here lean towards conservative..
  66. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 11:23 am
    I don`t give a RATS ASS what happens in California
    And that`s EXACTLY why I don`t want people like you in control.

    George Washington said that we should put our unity as AMERICANS before anything else.

    Fact is, you SHOULD give a rat`s ass what happens in Cali, for more reasons than just being a patriot or whatever. People like you have even less of a clue how economics work than people like Madest. What happens in California affects the rest of the US, in case you didn`t know, so quit being a selfish prick and learn to see the bigger picture for once in your life.

    The reason the private enterprises you adore so much make it big is because they see the bigger picture, how EVERYTHING affects EVERYTHING.
  67. Profile photo of gorgack2000
    gorgack2000 Male 13-17
    4682 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 11:28 am
    @bigbaddave- This is your brain on Fox News.
  68. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 11:36 am
    @Altaru:

    I think it`s the fact that California is just so far gone, that it hardly qualifies as part of this country anymore.

    Hell you could throw in parts of Oregon and Washington with that as well.
  69. Profile photo of T-Marley
    T-Marley Male 70 & Over
    602 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 11:55 am
    Michael Moore is an idiot cut from the same cloth of O`reilly, Limbaugh, Suse Orzeman, and that creepy lesbian on CNN.

    He`s a propagandist, and very little of his "documentary" work really holds up to any scrutiny.

    As far as Assange goes, he states that his motive is to take down the US, and spread the "truth". If that was true, why does he hold anything back, like his so-called `poison pill`?

    Because he is just in it for the notoriety, there is no nobility to his cause, only self-promotion.

    And I`m sorry but he has declared the US his enemy, so shouldn`t we oblige and show him what kind of an enemy we can be?

    Oh I forget, America has to just sit and take it, or else we are imperialist dogs...how dare us be assertive.
  70. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 12:02 pm
    I think it`s the fact that California is just so far gone, that it hardly qualifies as part of this country anymore.
    Yeah... I will agree there. Like with Texas, I hope a fault line opens up or something and takes them away...

    That said... Why and how did we let it get to that point? Instead of stepping in and doing something when there`s an obvious problem, people either only care about themselves or sit on their fat asses and complain.

    And THAT is the mentality that has gotten us into this sh*thole.
  71. Profile photo of I-IS-BORED
    I-IS-BORED Male 18-29
    2419 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 12:07 pm
    "Yesterday, in the Westminster Magistrates Court in London, the lawyers for WikiLeaks co-founder Julian Assange presented to the judge a document from me stating that I have put up $20,000 of my own money to help bail Mr. Assange out of jail."

    That`s a load of bull, he was denied any chance of bail.
  72. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 12:21 pm
    They both hate America. Do we really need any more explanation than that?
  73. Profile photo of yusterdai
    yusterdai Female 18-29
    126 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 12:32 pm
    Altaru, you obviously come from a very altruistic view point. Its the principals of unity and sacrifice that has got the world in this situation. The economy, politics, everything. The ideals of todays modern politics are making the world self destruct.
    Altruism holds that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue, and value. Both republican and liberal politics are guilty of leading by that moral code.

    Idk its just a different view point for yall to think about :/ Im not really into online debating.
  74. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 1:11 pm
    Altruism holds that man has no right to exist for his own sake,
    I`m not saying to not live for your own sake. Go ahead, work hard and use your money to enjoy a couple beers on a Friday night, a new TV, etc.

    But when there`s an obvious problem right in front of your face, DO SOMETHING for f*ck`s sake.

    Just don`t stand by and watch while your neighbor`s house burns down, then complain when the fire jumps to yours. The best way to keep the fire out of your own house, is to help put it out in theirs.
  75. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 1:25 pm
    Maybe one day you`ll know enough about the worlds economy to actually know what you`re talking about.
    So says the construction worker and self-professed stoner who thinks people should be allowed to sit around on un-employment half their life on the backs of rich taxpayers rather than letting those rich people create jobs with more money to employ those people...
  76. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 1:26 pm
    "Altruism holds that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue, and value. Both republican and liberal politics are guilty of leading by that moral code."

    Wrong- Repuclians and Democrats pay lipservice to altruism. But neither side is at all altruistic. Both sides do whatever it takes to please those who bankroll their political campaigns- and those who bankroll their political campaigns, by and large, are looking out for little other than the bottom line.
  77. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 1:32 pm
    You regurgitated this same line from yesterday.
    Yeah, because

    A) I said it yesterday, and instead of replying, you dodged it

    and B) It`s true.
  78. Profile photo of SPrinkZ
    SPrinkZ Male 18-29
    2279 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 5:37 pm
    Altaru,

    Rich people do not create jobs. Not as much as they could, or should. In fact, if you give them tax breaks they merely save money.

    It`s not a mystery why 2% has over 50% of the wealth. They save it. If they had reinvested it into the economy we`d all be better off. But capitalism is about greed, and not about sacrificing yourself for others.

    Just stop typing.
  79. Profile photo of yusterdai
    yusterdai Female 18-29
    126 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 6:04 pm
    Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned. Under capitalism the state is separated from economics (production and trade), just like the state is separated from religion. Capitalism is the system of of laissez faire. It is the system of political freedom.
    I value individual rights, therefore I promote capitalism.
    @sbeelz, Um yes sir it is indeed altruism. That is the result of altruism, when you get enough people to make a sacrifice and believe they are doing so to support the greater good, it is easier to have control and power over masses of people.


  80. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 6:04 pm
    Rich people do not create jobs. Not as much as they could, or should. In fact, if you give them tax breaks they merely save money.
    That`s because you`re doing it wrong.

    1) If you`re just going to take those rich people`s money and give it to everyone else, then what are they going to do? Sit there and accept it? NO, they`re going to take their money and go elsewhere. Why do you think China has all the jobs now, eh?

    2) If you just GIVE them the money for no reason, YEAH, they`re gonna f*cking keep it. That`s why you give them incentives (in the form of tax breaks and the like) to make their business bigger and better, and employ more people.

    It`s the same as going into a restaurant. If you know you`re going to get what you want, you`ll pay it. If the bar`s just going to take your money then piss in your drinks, your going to go somewhere else.
  81. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 6:10 pm
    (in the form of tax breaks and the like)
    I should clarify this: In the form of tax breaks WITH CONDITIONS.

    Example: Company X is looking at putting some money into Y. The company realizes that Y would be beneficial to their productivity (which would make the company grow and provide more jobs) if it were done, but has never really followed through Y because it`s absurdly expensive.

    So you give X an incentive to do Y. They do Y, they get the tax break/whatever, the company grows, hires more workers, and their productivity grows i.e, they get a Return onInvestment, both immediate and long-term.

    Christ, why does it take an 18-year-old poor kid working at a Gamestop to point out things that should be obvious? Seriously, I`m not even planning to go into psychology in college, yet for some reason I know more about how the human mind thinks than most of you retards.
  82. Profile photo of yusterdai
    yusterdai Female 18-29
    126 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 6:26 pm
    @sPrinkZ
    It only stands to reason that where there`s sacrifice, there`s someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there`s service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master.

    Sacrifice is the primitive ideal of savages. You can find great examples of why its never done any good in the bible and mayan history, or any civilization in the ancient times.
  83. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 6:30 pm
    I`m NOT altruistic. I don`t give a F*CK about you people, I only care about myself. However, I can see that the world is like a building.

    Every beam holds up quite a few others, and if too many fail, the entire thing collapses. Even if one fails, it puts stress on another. If that other can`t handle the stress, it will fail, which will put even MORE stress on another. The pattern continues, until it`s either fixed or it all falls down.

    The Domino effect, man, obviously you don`t know how the f*ck it works.

    Also: Being 18 means that you morons and your bad decisions are f*cking up MY future. See how this works?
  84. Profile photo of yusterdai
    yusterdai Female 18-29
    126 posts
    December 15, 2010 at 6:40 pm
    chill bro. no need to go saying ppl dont know how the dominoe effect works, as it is a popular theory and a flawed one. i dont see it nessacary to bring it into debate as it is sort of irrelavent. may you have more rational arguments in the future. lol im out
  85. Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 6:18 am
    While coal workers and retail workers are busting their asses off to earn a paycheck, while plastic surgeons and litigation professionals are actually earning their money the richest 2% of American`s probably qualify for food stamps because they don`t get paychecks- and in the eyes of the government they`re poor. Stocks, Corporate Equity and Ownership, Property and Real Estate investment, Venture/Private Investment, etc...

    Most people live off their paychecks and moderate investments and wealthy people live off of other people. So it`s easy to believe that if the tax rate is X% for everyone it`s fair, but when you are aware of how to become wealthy you realize that the most effective ways of making an increasing your wealth have absolutely nothing to do with "getting paid" and co-incidentally, paying taxes; so an average person pays X% of taxes on 100% of their wealthy, while a wealthy person pays X% of taxes on 1% of their wealth because of HOW they are wealthy.
  • Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 6:18 am
    @Altaru
    "1) If you`re just going to take those rich people`s money and give it to everyone else, then what are they going to do? Sit there and accept it? NO, they`re going to take their money and go elsewhere. Why do you think China has all the jobs now, eh?"

    Taxation take money from everyone, the difference is that the richest people in America pay lower taxes than the upper middle class and below. There illusion of fairness is simple: the tax rate is X% and everyone pays X%, right? Yes; undeniably- yes. Seems fair right? Until you understand how the Rich get Richer: for example, on paper Warren Buffet and Bill Gates have incomes below the poverty line, in America. Warren Buffet pays less in taxes than a 25 years old university student working two jobs, or a 6-figure income lawyer. Why? Because rich people don`t get paychecks- they have very small taxable income; their money is based on assets. While coal workers and retail workers...

    (Continued Below)
  • Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 6:19 am
    @Altaru
    “Why do you think China has all the jobs now, eh?"

    Largely because of government subsidies, cheap (essentially slave) labor, and fewer restrictions and regulations.
  • Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 6:26 am
    Steve Jobs makes a salary of $1 per year; he is able to do this because of the amount of money he makes off of other investments, rather than relying on an earned income. He is than able to use the residual money to pour back into Apple (and his other ventures) which indirectly makes him more money- you see when Apple does well, so does his Apple stock. Giving Steve Jobs "incentives" wouldn`t matter much- he`s paying lower taxes than a 17-year old cashier. However, if you granted Apple incentives and encourage Apple to grow Steve Jobs (not to mention Apple and everyone associated with Apple) would benefit FAR MORE than if we awarded individual incentives to the wealthy, in this example: Steve Jobs.
  • Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 6:27 am
    "2) If you just GIVE them the money for no reason, YEAH, they`re gonna f*cking keep it. That`s why you give them incentives (in the form of tax breaks and the like) to make their business bigger and better, and employ more people."

    So you`re saying that rather than increase their taxes we should DECREASE their taxes? Well, the reality is giving tax cuts on the individuals will not lead to any of the benefits that you imply- The people that make the most money from businesses do not base the decision to expand business based on their personal wealth- it has to do with corporate financing.

    (Continued Below)
  • Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 6:42 am
    “So you give X an incentive to do Y. ...company grows, hires more workers, and their productivity grows...”

    That’s not capitalism & that’s not the free market. Either you want a Free Market or you want a regulated market. The government doesn’t get to pick and choose who succeeds or how they succeed. Incentives that do not benefit Nationally (i.e. Equal Opportunity Employment, Emissions Regulations, etc.) is against our fundamental marketplace structure.

    Also, that ability would be a portal for nepotism and corruption.

    What is best for companies has no direct correlation with what is best for people; it is not the governments job to care for the welfare of business- their job is to care for the welfare of citizens. Directly aiding business at a whim will cause more issues than it solves.

    Lastly, a particular incentive for an action does not equate to a success- but that’s outside the scope of this debate.
  • Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 6:46 am
    “Christ, why does it take an 18-year-old poor kid working at a Gamestop to point out things that should be obvious? Seriously, I`m not even planning to go into psychology in college, yet for some reason I know more about how the human mind thinks than most of you retards.
    I`m NOT altruistic. I don`t give a F*CK about you people, I only care about myself. However, I can see that the world is like a building.”

    We haven’t drawn these (flawed) conclusions because we’re not foolish enough to pretend like we have the answers for problems of epic proportions. We’re not arrogant enough to assume that we alone have the knowledge required, or the capability of cracking a global issue.

    I would also assume that most of us have moved past our youthful, romanticized and simplified world-views and dropped our narcissistic attitudes in order to examine the issue and realize that its scope and ultimately its solution is complex and intricate.
  • Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 6:49 am
    "Also: Being 18 means that you morons and your bad decisions are f*cking up MY future. See how this works?"

    Well, you`re f*cking up our present, and trust me; without any further development and based on what you`ve exhibited so far- you`ll f*ck up your own future, all by yourself, just fine.
  • Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 7:03 am
    @yusterdai

    “I value individual rights, therefore I promote capitalism.”

    If you valued individual rights you would value Liberty and Freedom which, as stated, have nothing to do with capitalism.

    It is also important to note that America was never founded as a Capitalist society- it is the confusion with the false concept that Capitalism equates to Liberty which has led us to believe this. This is one of the reasons that we are in the current economic crisis: When companies and private entities are predicated on existing for the sole purpose to profit, we lose more Liberty than we gain.
  • Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 7:03 am
    @yusterdai

    “Capitalism is the system of of laissez faire.”

    Which, if true (and I agree with that it is,) by definition means that the only drive/responsibility of a capitalist market is to make money, regardless of the consequences or the activities. (See credit default Swaps, High-Frequency Trading and Corporate Pollution)

    “It is the system of political freedom. “

    Capitalism has nothing to do with Politics- it is a market policy.

    (Continued Below)
  • Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 7:04 am
    @yusterdai

    “Under capitalism the state is separated from economics (production and trade), just like the state is separated from religion.”

    Capitalism does not separate the state from economics- it simply ensures that a private individual/entity profits. If the state wants to get involved and make that private entity more profit- that’s entirely okay with capitalism. (See Subsidies of Agribusiness: Archer Daniels Mid-land, Monsanto, Phillip Morris, etc.)
  • Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 7:04 am
    @yusterdai

    “Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned.”

    Actually capitalism is an economic system which values private profit, private gain and private value; Capitalism has no problem infringing upon your individual rights, your privately owned property, your property rights or even you- if it makes another private individual a profit. (See privatized prisons, patent/trademark monopolies and private investigation firms.)
    Capitalism is NOT a social policy- it is a market policy. Confusing the two is dangerous.
  • Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36656 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 7:44 am
    How did we move off topic to "Capitalism" ?

    No bother, I`ll bite.

    Capitalism in U.S. is gone. What has developed is a type of Corporate-Socialism where a few mega-corporations control all of the resources. This prohibits a true free market where a little guy and build up a business.

    the internet is an exception. 1 average guy can create FaceBook or similar product and make a billion. This is possible because he does not require traditional resources for his product and can therefore compete with mega-corporations.

    Either this is all true... or I`m talking out my ass. Even I`m not sure.
  • Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 10:39 am
    "Either this is all true... or I`m talking out my ass. Even I`m not sure."

    It`s actually mostly true: The reality is that the "Free Market" is controlled by conglomerates and major corporations- who often associate and function cooperatively. On the bottom end, however, it`s nearly impossible for a start-up to gain any kind of major momentum in the traditional marketplace- typically the ideal for these start-ups is to either fill a niche, remain local or to be acquired by some larger entity.

    The internet is more similar to a free-market, however, it also has limitations and is quickly being dominated by a handful of organizations, and it is increasingly difficult to remain viable or boom digitally as well.
  • Profile photo of Kalimata
    Kalimata Male 30-39
    661 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 4:35 pm
    I`m a little torn on this issue.

    Primarily, I applaud Wikileaks and their efforts to air the "dirty laundry" the government would rather us not see. The lying, the abuse of public trust, the two faced diplomatic dealings. What Moore says about Iraq is true, the soldiers of the U.S. went to die in a war initiated by lies.

    Yet, to release lists of locations the U.S. government considers crucial to national security is irresponsible to say the least. Governments sometimes must do dirty rotten nasty things to protect it`s people. Assassinations, funding the enemy of your enemy and the like. The average citizen does not have the capacity to understand the far reaching ramifications of many aspects of the "shady dealings" that are sometimes necessary.

    A terrorist, psychopath, and deserving of a shadow death, no. Guilty of lack of discretion, perhaps.

    The government must be accountable to it`s people. It is the responsibility
  • Profile photo of yusterdai
    yusterdai Female 18-29
    126 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 9:53 pm
    @DickenMcHunt
    I agree you have some great points about todays modern American capitalism! But I should clarify that I am referring to Ayn Rand`s system of capatalism, which also has alot to do with her philosiphy as well. It is by far the most efficiant design of a conservative system ever made. (To me it is the most efficiant and ideal way to have an economy). The focus of her philosiphy is logic, reason, individualism, the persuit of happiness and selfishness.
    Now that I have mentioned Ayn Rand, I`m possibly the most hated among liberals in this forum. yippee!

    If you have an open mind I`d recomend reading one of her novels. Just for a good read :) Not for my sake, and not to simply read it and argue with every bit of information either, although it is difficult to argue with cold logic.
  • Profile photo of yusterdai
    yusterdai Female 18-29
    126 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 9:57 pm
    @Gerry1of1
    exactly.
  • Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 17, 2010 at 3:51 am
    "If you have an open mind I`d recomend reading one of her novels."

    I have, you should try reading:
    "Unequal Protection: The rise of corporate dominance and the theft of human rights"
    Upton Sinclair`s "Jungle "
    "One Market Under God"
    Thomas Paine: "The Rights of Man" and "The Age of Reason"
    "Cutting Corporate Welfare"
    "The Best Democracy Money can Buy"
    "The Wealth of Nations"
    Ron Pauls "Pillars of Prosperity"
    "Whatever Happened to Justice ?"
    "Globalisation and its Discontents"
    "The Anti-Capitalistic Mentality"
    "The World Is Flat: A Brief History of the Twenty-first Century"
    "The Ethics of Liberty"
    "The Virtue of Selfishness"

    You may have noticed one of Ayn Rands books in there. The list I detailed is critical reading from many political perspectives. Only w
  • Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 17, 2010 at 3:55 am
    Only when you have examined an issue from its every facet and understand all of the perspectives it can be viewed in can you begin to draw a valid and realistic conclusion.

    It would be like making a sculpture of a man- on one side it is incredibly detailed and accurate, but the back is entirely flat... it`s an outline of a man. Because if the artists doesn`t walk around back and see the rest of the man he can`t sculpt it.

    Being informed from ANY perspective is better than being ignorant, but one must, as you have said, have an open mind and indulge even perspectives that you disagree with. Once you are so informed then you can fathom and develop your own whole and complete philosophy.

    I`m only about 3/5 of the way through that list, so don`t think i`m an expert, or that I think of myself as an expert.
  • Profile photo of DickenMcHunt
    DickenMcHunt Male 18-29
    1299 posts
    December 17, 2010 at 4:01 am
    "Yet, to release lists of locations the U.S. government considers crucial to national security is irresponsible to say the least. Governments sometimes must do dirty rotten nasty things to protect it`s people. Assassinations, funding the enemy of your enemy and the like."

    Wikileaks partnered with professional organizations recognized around the world; utilized their resources to remove/redact information (names, locations, etc) of serious gravity.

    Wikileaks reached out to every major government organization that would be effected and requested official resources to help determine the information to be with-held, virtually every government refused to participate. Rather than do damage control 70+% of everyone involved said: "Screw you."

    As a side note, I disagree; Governments do not need to do "nasty things" to protect us.
  • Profile photo of yusterdai
    yusterdai Female 18-29
    126 posts
    December 17, 2010 at 4:32 pm
    @mchunt
    Thanks for the list. Im always looking to rent books on different political perspectives. Ew I even read a Glenn Beck book, I wish I could un-read that one.
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