The best in arts & entertainment, news, pop culture, and your mom since 2002.

[Total: 53    Average: 3.9/5]
142 Comments - View/Add
Hits: 17123
Rating: 3.9
Category: Science
Date: 11/03/10 09:05 AM

142 Responses to Richard Dawkins Demonstrates Laryngeal Nerve

  1. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36842 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 7:02 am
    Link: Richard Dawkins Demonstrates Laryngeal Nerve - Is this Evolution or Intelligent Design of the Giraffe?
  2. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:22 am
    This is coming from a guy who thinks Islam is one of the "great evils of the world".

  3. Profile photo of a1butcher
    a1butcher Male 40-49
    4809 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:22 am
    As a professional meat cutter I have butchered, buffalo, pigs, wild boars, sheep, ostrich, musk ox, moose, deer, antelope and all sorts of fowl.

    For some reason I`ve always wanted to butcher a giraffe.

    Also I hope Opie doesn`t see this O_O
  4. Profile photo of Angelmassb
    Angelmassb Male 18-29
    15511 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:23 am
    Can we please dont make this a science Vs. Religion stuff? both things were invented by us Humans
  5. Profile photo of sidewyz8
    sidewyz8 Female 18-29
    843 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:25 am
    That was pretty interesting to watch.

    I`d like to know the cause of that giraffe`s death, though.
  6. Profile photo of shortsagitar
    shortsagitar Female 18-29
    676 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:25 am
    Opened giraffe makes me sad.
  7. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:29 am
    meh
  8. Profile photo of a1butcher
    a1butcher Male 40-49
    4809 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:32 am
    sidewyz8
    "I`d like to know the cause of that giraffe`s death, though."


    I can guarantee, 100% the cause of death was.. dieing .
  9. Profile photo of canusuck
    canusuck Male 30-39
    796 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:35 am
    @Auburnjunky-well if its any consolation he refers to american christians as the american taliban-so he is an equal opportunist and correct in both senses
  10. Profile photo of Jayno
    Jayno Male 18-29
    176 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:36 am
    The way I see it, there will be a few types of comments on this page.
    1.) Comment affirming ID as false
    2.) Comment affirming ID as true, without commenting on anything proposed in the video
    3.) "Wow an anti-religion post, IAB must be low on hits"
  11. Profile photo of vicious_liar
    vicious_liar Male 13-17
    1226 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:43 am
    "I can guarantee, 100% the cause of death was.. dieing ."

    Most likely, yes. But have you considered the fact that individuals don`t always die when they are killed?
  12. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36842 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:46 am
    vicious_liar - "individuals don`t always die when they are killed"

    O.O

    huh?

    I heard death was the leading killer in the U.S.
  13. Profile photo of jib
    jib Male 18-29
    314 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:51 am
    I don`t wanna grow up, I just wanna beee a Toys R` Us....OMG! Geoffrey what did you do to him?!
  14. Profile photo of Monosandalos
    Monosandalos Male 30-39
    288 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:53 am
    vicious_liar knows people with an activated godmode.

    Or people who respawn in round 2.

    On a more serious note, I`m sure that this piece of evidence will also be filed under `cherry-picking` by those who believe evolution is an erroneous theory.
    Just as it happens the other way round.
    Still the dissection of a giraffe is interesting, I`ve only participated in the dissection of small mammals, amphibians and humans.
  15. Profile photo of DixxyRarr
    DixxyRarr Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:54 am
    Evolution is SO beautiful :) It makes me feel like I`m a part of the big, mysterious workings of the universe.

    I love to see the insides of animals. Super cool. I would`ve given my left ovary for a seat in that audience.
  16. Profile photo of chimmeychang
    chimmeychang Male 30-39
    685 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:55 am
    Interesting, but this is a perfect example of why I can not call myself an atheist. It is very arrogant to assume that there is not a reason for the nerve to be so close to the heart, and even more arrogant to present it as proof of anything but an example of our lack of understanding of the world at large,It may very well be that our bodies use this as a "timing chain" for vocalization. Religion does this all the time, but science, if it wants to be taken seriously, should hold itself to a higher standard.Also, i don`t understand why the burden of proof has been put on non theists. If you want me to believe something(and tithe 10% of my income, obey a bunch of arbitrary rules, and get on my knees and thank you for the opportunity to do so), you should really have a good reason.
  17. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:55 am
    I think this thread has their definitions of "kill" and "dead" a little mixed up.

    Death is the result of being killed, so it`s impossible that death is the cause of being killed. Being killed though, implies that the person will die, and so being killed is a leading cause of death.

    In fact, it is possible (though incredibly unlikely outside of hypotheticals) that a person dies without being killed. However, it is strictly impossible that someone is killed without dieing.
  18. Profile photo of Illy74
    Illy74 Male 30-39
    86 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:08 am
    Opie, don`t watch this vid! :-/
  19. Profile photo of torisen
    torisen Male 30-39
    40 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:12 am
    Is there a reason an intelligent designer couldn`t use evolution as his/her/it`s tool? Isn`t it even more impressive to think about if the designer was able to plan the rules and spark the big bang and just watch everything grow out of that cosmic egg?

    A designer CAN go back to the drawing board and scrap all previous design, but who are we to say that because they didn`t that`s proof of non-existence?

    I love the presumption that because someone doesn`t understand it it must be false. Her "that`s not intelligent design, that would be this..." comment bugs me. OK smarty pants, let`s see YOU build a living Giraffe. From scratch.

    I watch this as a scientist and a Christian and think of how long it took doctors to wash their hands before surgery. They weren`t stupid, they just didn`t have all the facts, and no matter how far we go as a race, we`ll NEVER have ALL the facts.
  20. Profile photo of sirrix
    sirrix Male 18-29
    210 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:13 am
    "Death is the result of being killed, so it`s impossible that death is the cause of being killed. Being killed though, implies that the person will die, and so being killed is a leading cause of death.

    In fact, it is possible (though incredibly unlikely outside of hypotheticals) that a person dies without being killed. However, it is strictly impossible that someone is killed without dieing."

    Dude, nothing that you said is true nor does it make any sense whatsoever. Please go back to college.
  21. Profile photo of SilverThread
    SilverThread Male 30-39
    3431 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:16 am
    I`ll bet Dawkins is a real hit at Funerals.

  22. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:28 am
    "Dude, nothing that you said is true nor does it make any sense whatsoever. Please go back to college."

    It makes perfect sense, asshat. It`s kind of like that all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares thing:

    If you are killed, it implies death, so everyone that is killed has died. But not everyone that dies has been killed.

    Go to college dude.
  23. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:31 am
    "A designer CAN go back to the drawing board and scrap all previous design, but who are we to say that because they didn`t that`s proof of non-existence?"

    For the last goddamn time, no one is proving non-existence. They are rather showing how the giraffe would not be evidence FOR intelligent design, and should not be admissable as such. And, logically, if the giraffe is not intelligently designed, then surely other animals are not as well.

    Moreover, many creationist claim that the god whom created everything is all-powerful; if he is so all-powerful, why do more work than is required? Surely he did not take the `most efficient`, e.g., `all-powerful` route in creating said beings.

    If I were creating something, why would I run 10 feet of wire instead of 2 inches?
  24. Profile photo of nettech98
    nettech98 Male 50-59
    1043 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:33 am
    @chimmeychang: It`s no more arrogant than IDers saying the banana is ID because it fits so perfectly into the human hand.

    @torisen: An IDer COULD use evolution as their tool, but when religion says that everything was designed and created 5 or 10 thousand years ago, it doesnt leave room for that to happen.

    @skine: People DIE every day without being killed. It`s usually called `natural causes`.
  25. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:34 am
    "It is very arrogant to assume that there is not a reason for the nerve to be so close to the heart, and even more arrogant to present it as proof of anything but an example of our lack of understanding of the world at large,It may very well be that our bodies use this as a "timing chain" for vocalization."

    It is not arrogant to assume this at all. We know what purpose the nerve serves, and it does so inefficiently. It is not, as you put it, a `timing chain`. We have an understanding of how it works, and we see that it does more work than it needs to.
  26. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:35 am
    "@chimmeychang: It`s no more arrogant than IDers saying the banana is ID because it fits so perfectly into the human hand. "

    Because the banana as we know it today wasn`t modified to fit human farming needs a couple of hundred years ago or anything like that.

    :D
  27. Profile photo of Thesphinx
    Thesphinx Male 18-29
    353 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:45 am
    If that nerve was so impractical why is it that creatures that evolved that way kept on evolving for millions of generations?

    I mean if a fish can turn into a freaking human being over the course of several million years, why can`t a tiny little nerve reroute into a more practical road?

    `puts on sunglasses`

    Something is definitely fishy about these scientist`s conclusions.
  28. Profile photo of nettech98
    nettech98 Male 50-59
    1043 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:46 am
    Just to remind you of what IDers are saying about the banana:

    Bananas - The atheists nightmare

    Maybe that`s why the apple isn`t designed that way - God didn`t want people to eat it!
  29. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:51 am
    "If that nerve was so impractical why is it that creatures that evolved that way kept on evolving for millions of generations?

    I mean if a fish can turn into a freaking human being over the course of several million years, why can`t a tiny little nerve reroute into a more practical road?

    `puts on sunglasses`

    Something is definitely fishy about these scientist`s conclusions."

    You can`t be that obtuse, can you? Once an organ has taken on a certain evolution (in this case, the nerve) it will rarely regress. It can move forward, but not backwards, i.e, it can add but not subtract. This is why humans still have appendices, etc. Please note how I use the word organ and not organism.
  30. Profile photo of LordJim
    LordJim Male 60-69
    7064 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:55 am
    SilverThread,

    Actually, he is. Google Dawkins eulogy for Douglas Adams.

  31. Profile photo of simim23
    simim23 Female 18-29
    1427 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 11:22 am
    "Just to remind you of what IDers are saying about the banana:

    Maybe that`s why the apple isn`t designed that way - God didn`t want people to eat it!"

    Everytime I see that, I think of a monkey with a banana in their hand.
  32. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 11:24 am
    "If that nerve was so impractical why is it that creatures that evolved that way kept on evolving for millions of generations?"

    The same way you`re still driving cars on ever-widening highways, rather than zipping from city to city in ultra-efficient maglev trains: once you have a system in place, it`s easier to just build on that system, rather than replace the system entirely.

    The point he is making is that evolution is a dumb, unguided process, that is prone to producing such stupid results. The implication is that there is no designer (or perhaps that there is a designer, but he`s stupid/insane/lazy).

    Incidentally, I saw this when it aired on television over here. They did say that the animal sadly died of natural causes, and had not been in the wild (I forget if a zoo or nature reserve were mentioned).
  33. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 11:31 am
    "even more arrogant to present it as proof of anything but an example of our lack of understanding of the world at large,It may very well be that our bodies use this as a "timing chain" for vocalization"

    Or in other words, "god works in mysterious ways", which is the get-out that the religious use, by hiding in the ever-shrinking pockets of our ignorance.

    At some point, you just have to say that the likelihood of our being wrong is less than the likelihood of our being right.
  34. Profile photo of meepmaker
    meepmaker Male 30-39
    6694 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 11:35 am
    All of a sudden I want a big ole steak.
  35. Profile photo of cobrakiller
    cobrakiller Male 18-29
    7473 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 11:47 am
    i do love this little tidbit of information, and how it is true in all living animals. we went over this in my evolution lecture a couple of months ago. we even watched this video.
  36. Profile photo of citizen_kane
    citizen_kane Male 18-29
    272 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 11:54 am
    the only "mystery" here is how people still believe that they were created by an invisible man who`s only "proof" of existence comes from a book of old wive`s tales.
  37. Profile photo of Intaresting
    Intaresting Male 18-29
    812 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 12:17 pm
    @vicious_liar: You are a genius troll. Thank you.
  38. Profile photo of hammerdrop
    hammerdrop Male 13-17
    199 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 12:32 pm
    @Musuko42

    And... your point being?
  39. Profile photo of shizzamX
    shizzamX Female 18-29
    2695 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 12:38 pm
    couldn`t make it through the whole thing,made me nauseous
  40. Profile photo of M3ntal1313
    M3ntal1313 Male 18-29
    448 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 12:41 pm
    "Arguing that the left RLN is poorly designed implies that God should have used different embryo developmental trajectories for all the structures involved to avoid looping the left RLN around the aorta. One who asserts that the RLN is a poor design assumes that a better design exists, a claim that cannot be asserted unless an alternative embryonic design from fertilized ovum to fetus--including all the incalculable molecular gradients, triggers, cascades, and anatomical twists and tucks--can be proposed that documents an improved design. Lacking this information, the "poor design" claim uses evolution to fill in gaps in our knowledge. Furthermore, any alternative embryonic design pathway would likely result in its own unique set of constraints, also giving the false impression of poor design."
  41. Profile photo of MrPeabody
    MrPeabody Male 30-39
    1920 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 12:53 pm
    Nice try Dawkins... Kinda fishy how Dawkins convienintly forgets how this nerve bracnches to other other structures along its path.

    "As the recurrent nerve hooks around the subclavian artery or aorta, it gives off several cardiac filaments to the deep part of the cardiac plexus. As it ascends in the neck it gives off branches, more numerous on the left than on the right side, to the mucous membrane and muscular coat of the oesophagus; branches to the mucous membrane and muscular fibers of the trachea; and some pharyngeal filaments to the superior pharyngeal constrictor muscle.

    The nerve splits into anterior and posterior rami before supplying muscles in the voice box"

    [Source">
  42. Profile photo of PringleMan
    PringleMan Female 13-17
    1356 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 1:05 pm
    giraffe dissection!!! those students are lucky.
  43. Profile photo of ruthless1990
    ruthless1990 Female 18-29
    3001 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 1:19 pm
    IAB stop pretending to be interested in Biology, we know your only interested in another debate centred around religion.
  44. Profile photo of duffytoler
    duffytoler Male 40-49
    5195 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 1:44 pm
    EWW! DISSECTED GIRAFFE! Hope you religious people are happy now. You and your stupid pet fairy tales, your crackpot devotion to lies. When you aren`t murdering people, blowing up planes or buggering Catholic schoolboys you pester scientists with your BS until somebody has to chop open a giraffe.
  45. Profile photo of Ryan22158
    Ryan22158 Male 18-29
    418 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 1:55 pm
    Sure, this is the exact same reason why your parents don`t have tonsils today. They think there is no reason, but I am quite sure someone will come back to this in another eighty years and say this Richard Dawkins was completely wrong.
  46. Profile photo of naz2k55
    naz2k55 Male 18-29
    119 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 2:05 pm
    all i know, is when we were taught this in med school there was a reason it went under the arch of aorta, its not as pointless at they make it sound
  47. Profile photo of mmdude
    mmdude Male 18-29
    9 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 2:07 pm
    Well, those branches works as fixation points so the nerve will not move around loosely in the body. Those branches are there to fix the problem of a very large nerve going, unnecessarily, all the way around and then back again without wraping around stuff, or itself.
    MrPeabody, your observation is pointless, sorry. Dawkins has evidenve on his side, you don`t.
  48. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 2:28 pm
    I feel smart!
  49. Profile photo of ishkabibbles
    ishkabibbles Male 18-29
    155 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 3:13 pm
    ya after graduating simultaneously from princeton med school and veterinarian school, I learned this as well
  50. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 3:37 pm
    Wow I`m always impressed by the sheer blinkered approach of the logically blind. Mr Peabody embeds a page from Wikipedia as a source for a pro ID point - that quite clearly states "The extreme detour of this nerve in giraffes (fifteen feet further than the `direct` route of a designer) is cited as evidence of evolution as opposed to intelligent design"

    The extreme detour - are we agreed on that bit? Or would you like to throw some more poo around as a detour?

    How the f*ck do you have the nerve to call that ID?

    Oh Idiotic Design - I see - I`m sorry - my bad.
  51. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 3:43 pm
    "How the f*ck do you have the nerve to call that ID?"

    Apparently we all have that nerve lol.

    The guy in the video said "we can`t think of any reason that the nerve would take that path."

    So if man can`t think of it, does that make it fact?
  52. Profile photo of GolfPunk69
    GolfPunk69 Male 30-39
    58 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 3:52 pm
    @Musuko: You deserve a beer.

    I`m confused. Are there people on here that still don`t think that evolution is real? Please tell me none of them are allowed to vote.
  53. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 3:58 pm
    "he guy in the video said "we can`t think of any reason that the nerve would take that path."

    So if man can`t think of it, does that make it fact?"

    Erm - at what point in the video did this happen? Did I miss that bit?

    The reason is pretty obvious - and well explained in the video - evolution is not a perfect process, this is a legacy relict, as is believing in hand me down jackanories.
  54. Profile photo of Boredhero78
    Boredhero78 Male 18-29
    108 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 5:06 pm
    Of course evolution is real, but could it also be Gods way of doing things? we humans tend to think we know everything by regurgitating the opinions of others, but is it only a matter of time until another scientist discovers something that blows a hole in that theory? If you look at the scientific time line, I would say yes.
  55. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 5:28 pm
    @Musuko42

    They still use the "wild bananas" as they`re the ones that contain seeds. The ones they harvest don`t.
  56. Profile photo of a1butcher
    a1butcher Male 40-49
    4809 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 5:33 pm
    vicious_liar..." But have you considered the fact that individuals don`t always die when they are killed?"

    That is a true fact that most people cannot quite comprehend.

    I too am preparing for the zombie apocalypse.

    For this you will need: one room which you will not leave; one mattress; tomato soup, ten tins of; mushroom soup, eight tins of, for consumption cold; ice cream, vanilla, one large tub of; Magnesia, Milk of, one bottle; paracetamol; mouth wash; vitamins; mineral water; Lucozade; pornography; one bucket for urine, one for feces, and one for vomitus; one television; and one bottle of Valium, which I have already procured, from my mother, who is, in her own domestic and socially acceptable way, also a drug addict.
  57. Profile photo of boredfjord
    boredfjord Male 13-17
    928 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 5:40 pm
    Boredhero, your argument applies with equal force to all scientific theories. Might some future scientist blow a hole in the theory of evolution? Sure, she might. But she also might blow a hole in any other scientific theory. We shouldn`t doubt present scientific theories because of the uncertain possibility of future falsification. Instead, we should accept present scientific theories while simultaneously attempting to improve them. If we blow a hole in them all, wonderful. That means we have an opportunity to improve our beliefs. Any theory might have a hole blown in it. But it might not. In the meantime, we should believe what the evidence most strongly suggests is the case. That`s really the best we can do.
  58. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 5:46 pm
    I`m not an ID or creationism proponent, but poor arguments based on supposition based on evolution of fish. It may well be as related for the nerve based from such but not necessarily. Evolution incorporates everything for a reason. Formerly in my younger days working in a wildlife park. I worked with such for several years doing care and research. The way giraffes reach and bend their necks both grazing and in mating rituals, and also in male combat. The sounds they make during such. Probably more than likely requires the nerve to be more longer and flexible for such purposes. Actually there is no reason for it to be a poor design flaw. He needs a better example than what he is giving. They are speculating why it should have been short. The way giraffes twist their heads and necks could cause damage if it was shorter.

    Poor supposition by Dawkins to justify such argument.
  59. Profile photo of boomersooner
    boomersooner Male 18-29
    32 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 5:50 pm
    @ duffytoler:

    who are you to tell me or anyone else here that they`re wrong in such a condescending way?

    i don`t come in here spewing poo at you for your blind, stupid, and worthless beliefs, so don`t do that to anyone else.
    when you can give me 100%, undeniable facts that there is no God, then come back. until then, sit in your little cave and wait to wrongly attack people somewhere else about their belief system. it`s people like you that make the world, as a collective whole, shake their heads. congratulations.
  60. Profile photo of CrzyWhtGrl
    CrzyWhtGrl Female 18-29
    255 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 5:53 pm
    Just because they can`t think of a reason for it to be that way, doesn`t mean there isn`t one. Plus, I`ve always felt like evolution was God`s way of working anyway.
  61. Profile photo of MildCorma
    MildCorma Male 18-29
    496 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 6:04 pm
    Boomersoomer:

    Logic is the proof of something from obtaining facts. You do not prove negatives in science, that`s not how it works. You cannot ask us to "prove" a negative. You have the burden of proof, not us.

    @ Handys003

    Did you not get the whole point of the dissection? He is reflecting on the human nerve that does the same, but he can`t obviously dissect a human now can he. Actually listen to him and maybe you`d have picked that up.

    Poor supposition by you to justify your outdated beliefs.
  62. Profile photo of boomersooner
    boomersooner Male 18-29
    32 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 6:22 pm
    @ mildcorma:

    i do appreciate you being more civil on the matter, but there is no such thing as a one way street that travels both ways.

    the unfortunate thing is that you can`t argue with faith. i could go on all day about how ridiculous it is to believe that particles combined and exploded to form the world we live in now, but i don`t. i let you believe what you`d like, and i believe in what i want. (if everyone thought the same way then life would be boring).

    what i was mostly saying, and perhaps said it poorly, was that it does no good in telling someone they`re wrong without providing 100% pure, exact, and irrefutable evidence. you can`t tell me that god doesn`t exist unless you actually have hard evidence that god doesn`t exist.

    hopefully you see what i`m saying?
  63. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 6:23 pm
    @MidCorma

    Actually you can dissect a human on video. Not a live one just like not a live giraffe. I just cringe at the example given. Every species of animal has what seems an inferrior part. It does not mean it`s a design flaw. Your argument via trollism failed.
  64. Profile photo of Maromi
    Maromi Female 18-29
    1095 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 6:28 pm
    I never want to see a dead giraffe again :(
  65. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 6:34 pm
    @MidCorma

    Here is a link to a dissected human. Enjoy!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoD4vg9Ddag
  66. Profile photo of SarahofBorg
    SarahofBorg Female 18-29
    3564 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 7:21 pm
    If you don`t believe in evolution, than you must believe God is an idiot. Why would God create a creature that has pointless flaws that are easily avoided? They aren`t even flaws that matter for survival. But it`s hard to argue with some one who thinks fossils are just God`s way of just plain lying to us. It`s easy to believe whatever you want if you think hard evidence is simply a lie told by God to fool you.
  67. Profile photo of GolfPunk69
    GolfPunk69 Male 30-39
    58 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 7:26 pm
    @Handys003 - That`s exactly his point. If the nerve was an "intelligent" design, it would not be so long. The reason they`re doing this on a Giraffe is that obviously the nerve is going to be much, much longer. The path of the nerve is the same on a lot of mammals.

    Incidentally, how would an inferior part, not be a design flaw?

    Obviously this one instance on it`s own is not the entire case for evolution, it`s merely another piece of evidence.
  68. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 8:07 pm
    @GolfPunk69
    His point as you made is the precise reason why I cringe at the argument. An ID supporter could just as well say that an engineer would not necessarily make it short like Dawkins infers. An engineer would make it long to go with the function of th usages of the neck. Just as I pointed out earlier what giraffes use it for. If the Laryngeal was short in could very easily tear when the giraffe bends it`s neck in certain position when fighting another male giraffe for mating reasons. Then it would not be able to resonate it`s deep harmonics as part of it`s courtship ritual while entwining with the female neck. Thus no mating: thus no propogation of the species therefore defeating evolution. He is using a poor example of argument. See my point? The argument that Dawkins make is speculation on the point of an engineer flaw. Sometimes I watch Dawkins out think himself into a corner.
  69. Profile photo of cyborgmonkey
    cyborgmonkey Male 13-17
    95 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 8:21 pm
    @handys
    well how come it goes down into the organs... and plus from what i say the nerve only has to be 2 inches long and it wouldnt be in a place that has to move, bend, or arch... ergot it wouldn`t tear. but thanks for the dissected humans. :D
  70. Profile photo of chimmeychang
    chimmeychang Male 30-39
    685 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 8:27 pm
    Interesting, but this is a perfect example of why I can not call myself an atheist. It is very arrogant to assume that there is not a reason for the nerve to be so close to the heart, and even more arrogant to present it as proof of anything but an example of our lack of understanding of the world at large,It may very well be that our bodies use this as a "timing chain" for vocalization. Religion does this all the time, but science, if it wants to be taken seriously, should hold itself to a higher standard.Also, i don`t understand why the burden of proof has been put on non theists. If you want me to believe something(and tithe 10% of my income, obey a bunch of arbitrary rules, and get on my knees and thank you for the opportunity to do so), you should really have a good reason.
  71. Profile photo of Paigala123
    Paigala123 Female 13-17
    53 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 8:43 pm
    So giraffe`s evolved from a fish? Hmm interesting
  72. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 8:46 pm
    If the Laryngeal was short in could very easily tear when the giraffe bends it`s neck in certain position when fighting another male giraffe for mating reasons.
    There is no way a giraffe could bend its neck during a fight that would tear that direct internal connection between the brain and the larynx. There are no joints between them to allow a damaging movement. The dissecter shows you the distance at around the 2:30 mark to be two inches in a straight line. Any injury that could possibly tear a direct connection would already be fatal.

    In fact, by increasing the length, you only provide MORE opportunity for the nerve to be damaged, since it is accessible from a greater array of injuries and can be damaged along a greater length. The longer route is less safe than the shorter one.

    So, as they said - this is not an intelligent design.
  73. Profile photo of SaltyVarnish
    SaltyVarnish Male 18-29
    678 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:18 pm
    I`m sure i`m not the only one to say this but.....don`t let opie see this!
  74. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:20 pm
    @almightybob!

    And you studied Giraffa camelopardalis for how long? Okay mister expert on such. Tell me the mean prothombin time and a mean activated thromboplastin time of a male during a manual restraint and jugular venipuncture for hemoglobin values. otherwise STFU!
  75. Profile photo of ajd121
    ajd121 Male 18-29
    625 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:20 pm
    I guess it is just easier to believe people who lived 2000 years ago who said they heard voices in their heads, than actually proof.

    2000 years ago a guy hears a voice in his head telling him to kill his son he is a profit, today he is a psychopath.
  76. Profile photo of GolfPunk69
    GolfPunk69 Male 30-39
    58 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:24 pm
    @Bob Almighty: You get a beer too.

    @Handys: No engineer would ever make the nerve 6 foot longer than it needs to be. The growth of the human body is an economy. To create that nerve requires resources (protein, carbs, water...). If you were designing it surely you`d save those for something else (larger muscles, or stronger bones perhaps).

    @ChimmeyChang: The argument is that, if we we`re to have evolved from fish, where the base of the mouth is far far closer to the heart, and the direct path from the brain to the back of the mouth crosses behind the aorta, as we gradually evolved in to creatures with longer necks, this schematic of the nerve running down to the heart would remain the same. They`re not looking at one animal and calling it evolution; this is one tiny piece in a massive massive puzzle. And at present all those pieces point to evolution being the reason of how we came in to existence (humans that is).
  77. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:27 pm
    I swear some of you worship Dawkins every word latching on to every word as gospel and fact. It`s just as bad as religionists. For crying out loud just crucify him already and make him God. Such Hypocrisy using unproven supposition.
  78. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:31 pm
    @GolfPunk
    At least yours is a better argument for such. However the time I spent working and studying with such. Shows the very need is for such endeavors. Why do you think the vertebrae is long and flexible? Anyhow i leave it with you for the final word. it`s late and I`m night diving tonight with the hammerheads for reef fish.
  79. Profile photo of GolfPunk69
    GolfPunk69 Male 30-39
    58 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 9:36 pm
    @Handys: a) According to the bible, Jesus wasn`t crucified by his own apostles.

    b) which "unproven supposition" are you referring to?

    c) If you really have to go and get an old biology / veterinary text book out, to find some big words, that don`t relate to the argument in any way shape or form, shouldn`t you just start to accept that your opponent is making a good point?
  80. Profile photo of entwife
    entwife Female 18-29
    536 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:05 pm
    Makes me wonder if we just haven`t yet discovered a reason for the Laryngeal Nerve to make such a mysterious detour.....science is discovering new things all the time. Doesn`t mean it`s necessarily a random mistake, just that we may not have figured it out yet.
  81. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:11 pm
    5Cats - I`d be very interested to hear what you have to say about the role of your intelligent designer in this one; however, I`ve forgotten if you reject evolution outright or just consider it an outgrowth of the Deity as "Clockmaker."
  82. Profile photo of pariahnola
    pariahnola Male 18-29
    649 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:29 pm
    Does this make anyone else hungry? or is it just me?
  83. Profile photo of ajd121
    ajd121 Male 18-29
    625 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:37 pm
    "Makes me wonder if we just haven`t yet discovered a reason for the Laryngeal Nerve to make such a mysterious detour.....science is discovering new things all the time. Doesn`t mean it`s necessarily a random mistake, just that we may not have figured it out yet. "

    There is no reason, that is like arguing that 2+2=5, and insisting that we have just yet to find a reason why 2+2=5 when questioned.

    The evolutionary reason for the nerve makes perfect sense. It would be impossible to reroute the nerve through evolution because evolution happens very very slowly through many generations and if at any point evolution did try to reroute the nerve little by little the animal or person would die instantly henceforth not allowing them to reproduce.
  84. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 10:38 pm
    And you studied Giraffa camelopardalis for how long? Okay mister expert on such. Tell me the mean prothombin time and a mean activated thromboplastin time of a male during a manual restraint and jugular venipuncture for hemoglobin values. otherwise STFU!

    How old a giraffe? Don`t they change with age?

    Nah, but I`m no vet. What I AM is an electrical engineer (BSc Electrical and Electronic Engineering from the University of Edinburgh).

    And I can assure you, when you`re designing an electrical network (which is what I`m told the nervous system is - correct me if I`m wrong since you have the veterinary knowledge here) you do not run an electrical connection 6 feet longer than it needs to be.


    Now please explain how a giraffe could have its head bent during a fight in such a way as to damage a shorter connection, but leave a larger one intact:

  85. Profile photo of sbeelz
    sbeelz Male 30-39
    2868 posts
    November 3, 2010 at 11:21 pm
    "2000 years ago a guy hears a voice in his head telling him to kill his son he is a profit, today he is a psychopath."

    This. But it`s spelled prophet.

    I made the mistake of listening to a preacher on the radio the other day, and if what he were saying weren`t sanctioned by an official religion, he would be UNIVERSALLY perceived as a raving lunatic (basically that nobody has the right to judge Christians for their actions because they`ve been saved, regardless of how sinful they behave. Essentially, he was saying that it`s impossible for a Christian to be a hypocrite even when they`re being a hypocrite. To be honest, I was impressed with the semantic gymnastics he used to make his point.)
  86. Profile photo of SvampeBob
    SvampeBob Male 18-29
    3076 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 1:03 am
    holly poo that looked delicious I want a steak!
    @Paigala123 WTF? welcome to 2010
  87. Profile photo of duffytoler
    duffytoler Male 40-49
    5195 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 1:31 am
    Lulz @ religitards trying to make an excuse for this. Get real.
  88. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 2:04 am
    Yeah sbeelz - semantic gymnastics seem to be a mainstay of this particular brand of apologism.
  89. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 5:01 am
    Just wondering if evolutionary pressure could ever sort this defect out. If not does this mean that all of life is destined to evolve to a point where it became cluttered with defective crud? To the point where a brand new organism without the baggage could arise and sweep all before it?
  90. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 5:25 am
    Just googled non-recurrent laryngeal nerves - it is possible that evolutionary pressure would sort this one out eventually - but only if the pressure was significant. In humans non-recurrent occurrence is down below the 1% mark. Can`t think of how evolutionary pressure could shorten this though...

    ..unless we shot the people who took longest to say non-recurrent occurence correctly (or even "non-reccurrent occurence correctly" correctly)...
  91. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 5:34 am
    @almightybob1

    You are actually proving quite delight-some in engaging banter. Hate to say it, but your growing on me.

    Nice pic. Doesn`t show the whole schematic in detail though. As engineer you would know how important that would be in making how long the nerve should be correct?

    Dawkins leaves out some details; as an Engineer that`s important right?

    Let me put it this way. The recurrent nerve hooks around the subclavian artery or aorta, it gives off several cardiac filaments to the deep part of the cardiac plexus. As it ascends in the neck it gives off branches, more numerous on the left than on the right side, to the mucous membrane and muscular coat of the esophagus; branches to the mucous membrane and muscular fibers of the trachea; and some pharyngeal filaments to the Constrictor pharyngis inferior.

    In other words the nerve also has a role in supplying parts of the heart, windpipe muscles and mucous membranes, and the esophagus.
    <
  92. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 5:37 am
    @almightybob1

    Want to shorten the nerve now? Once again evolution is a perfect designer. Every part has it`s use designed by nature for a specific purpose of function. Evey biological organism is built for such for the environment it inhabits.
  93. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 5:50 am
    @GolfPunk69

    Correct terminology is disciple (followers) not apostles. Apostle is a messenger and that did not apply until after Christ was resurrected.

    Oh BTW would you like to show me how it doesn`t relate? Pull out the old biology book and point to where. I believe I demonstrated such as per previous thread to almightybob1.

    Like I said your Savior Lord Dawkins is grasping at straws in supposition. Also he is not telling you the whole story of the purpose of the Laryngeal nerve. He is an expert in animal behavior, but not anatomy and physiology.

  94. Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 5:53 am
    "Just wondering if evolutionary pressure could ever sort this defect out" - It depends if the defect impedes the animal in any way making it less succesful than another mutation where the nerve is shorter. If say a predator evolves or learns to attack the neck of the giraffe, specifically damaging the latyngeal nerve. Over time, any giraffes born with a mutation where the nerve is less exposed or takes a shorter route will have a better chance of survival, therefore passing on this beneficial mutation. Thus evolving out the `disadvantage` of having a long laryngeal nerve. If it is no detriment to giraffes, evolution wont `fix` it.
  95. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 6:14 am
    "Want to shorten the nerve now?"

    Yes. Just have those branches come off the Vagus nerve.

    Why make the Laryngeal make a massive detour to connect these locations when there is already a nerve going that way that can connect them?

    It`s not even a useful redundancy; cut the Vagus nerve and the Laryngeal nerve goes too.

    Yes, there might be a cogent explanation of why this layout has a benefit; but until someone proposes and proves that explanation, we can only go with the current best explanation; which is that it`s an evolutionary relic, like the appendix and wisdom teeth in humans.

    That is how rational thought works.
  96. Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 6:15 am
    @handys003 "He is an expert in animal behavior, but not anatomy and physiology"

    Professor Richard Dawkins is an expert in Zoology (the study of the structure, function, behavior, and evolution of animals). Ok, not anatomy as a specialism but the other experts on the show include Professor Joy Reidenberg (the scalpel wielder) who is an expert in anatomy and
    Mark Evans (the shows presenter) who is a vet and chief veterinary advisor to the RSPCA.
    I think that`s `expert` enough.
  97. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 6:16 am
    "Like I said your Savior Lord Dawkins is grasping at straws"

    We agree with him because he provides a rational argument that we can confirm for ourselves.

    Not because of who he is.

    That`s where rational thinkers differ from the religious.
  98. Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 6:19 am
    "Also he is not telling you the whole story of the purpose of the Laryngeal nerve".
    The whole story of the laryngeal nerve is immaterial to the point. If the giraffe`s recurrent laryngeal nerve has a very good reason to go down and back up its neck, it is still obviously an inefficient, inelegant design. Therefore not an intelligent one.
  99. Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 6:24 am
    @Musuku42: ..and if the theory of evolution was ever fully falsified, like a good rational scientist he would try and develop a different theory not try and immunise the theory as religion does.
  100. Profile photo of liberalirony
    liberalirony Male 18-29
    196 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 6:27 am
    @handys003 "Once again evolution is a perfect designer. Every part has it`s use designed by nature for a specific purpose of function"
    Its that kind of half assed understanding of evolution which holds the rest back. Evolution is not a designer, the mutations it produces are not tailor made to suit specific purposes. They are a series of random accidents and mistakes happening over an incomprehensible length of time. Those that are successful get repeated over an over until they become the norm. Evolution has no mind, no will, no aims or goals. It is the fight for survival from a genetic level to the living breathing species struggling to survive.

  101. Profile photo of Jayno
    Jayno Male 18-29
    176 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 6:28 am
    @handy
    "Apostle is a messenger and that did not apply until after Christ was resurrected"

    For someone who seems to know a lot about biology and physiology, it doesn`t seem odd at all that something can come back to life?
  102. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 6:33 am
    "@Musuku42: ..and if the theory of evolution was ever fully falsified, like a good rational scientist he would try and develop a different theory not try and immunise the theory as religion does."

    Exactly.

    Also, it doesn`t even need to be falsified; it just needs a stronger (better supported by the evidence) theory to come along.

    We are not saying intelligent design is false. We are saying that evolution is the stronger theory. For that to change, intelligent design needs to prove itself to be stronger than evolution.

    Rather fittingly, it`s survival of the fittest.
  103. Profile photo of AustinJay
    AustinJay Male 18-29
    52 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 7:23 am
    I actually want to know where your gods say evolution is untrue or is false...not trying to wage war here i just want someone to give me evidence of the bible saying such things...because I dont recall it saying that...and I dont want your dumb-a** interpretation of what you think the bible says either...just give me the exact text. Then maybe I can see where you guys are coming from...still I belive in evolution but I wont tell you otherwise.
  104. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 8:49 am
    You are actually proving quite delight-some in engaging banter. Hate to say it, but your growing on me.
    Aww, you too :)

    Want to shorten the nerve now?
    Yes. As you pointed out, damaging it could impede the giraffe`s mating chances. So if I were designing it, I would run a separate dedicated connection 2 inches. Which would protect it from tearing by keeping it within the skull, not expose it to tearing as you suggested.

    As Musuko suggested, those branches you mentioned could easily come from the vagus nerve which already travels down the neck. If I were the designer I wouldn`t remove BOTH lengths of it - I just would take out the return loop in favour of a safer, more efficient alternative.

    I find it impossible to accept that a supposedly intelligent designer would fail to come up with an equally efficient, safe method as the one I did, considering his omniscience vs my rudimentary biology.
  105. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 8:54 am
    Once again evolution is a perfect designer.
    No, it isn`t. It`s a pretty good system, but it`s not perfect. There are plenty of examples of non-perfect evolution.
    Funnily enough, the go-to ID example of the "irreducibly complex" human eye is a good illustration of this. The way the optical nerve connects to the back of the eye causes a blind spot right in the centre. Certain optical illusions will take advantage of this to cause dots to disappear, you`ve probably seen them. Some animals (if I remember correctly, octopi) have a better connection which causes no such blind spot. Their eyes are better than ours.

    Or consider the fact that we have developed NO way of sensing one of the most dangerous forces to life on this planet, radiation, other than the tiny visible spectrum most of us can see and the little into the infrared we can feel.

    Anyway, we seem to agree that this is the work of evolution rather than design.
  106. Profile photo of APJ311
    APJ311 Male 13-17
    749 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 10:19 am
    I like this show. :D
  107. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 10:28 am
    @aikiman - I think the nerve is a bit close to the windpipe for selection pressures to protect it in its own right - predator takes that out, who cares whether lanky spots can make a noise or not. Better to evolve armour plating!

    liberalirony "a series of random accidents and mistakes happening over an incomprehensible length of time"

    The speed that evolution happens is now thought to be surprisingly fast - try reading `the beak of the finch`. Its the drift over time that is often a lot slower.
  108. Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 11:49 am
    @mattprince: yeah I know, not the best example but I was simlpy trying to explain evolution and tie it to the example in hand at the same time...and I was on a very short lunch..
  109. Profile photo of obay
    obay Male 18-29
    67 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 11:50 am
    bwahahah too preachy
  110. Profile photo of Enigima
    Enigima Male 18-29
    82 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 1:47 pm
    They just messed that giraffe up guys! let the animal die in peace.
  111. Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 2:28 pm
    It`s pretty simple. The Theory of Evolution was created through observable evidence and has survived for 150 years because nobody has found any credible evidence that would invalidate it.

    Intelligent Design and Creationism came from an attempt to validate the Bible and is probably perpetuated due to the perceived threat to personal faith that Evolution creates.

    Intelligent Design and Creationism do not put forth any credible challenges to Evolution. The aspects of Intelligent Design and Creationism that do not conflict with Evolution are also the aspects that cannot be proven (Designer/God for example). The Theory of Evolution does not disprove a Designer or God. Evolution works exactly the same whether there is or isn`t a Designer/God.

    IAB posters can try to disprove Evolution all they want, but they are simply relying on evidence and arguments that have been debunked long ago by actual evidence.
  112. Profile photo of Handersan
    Handersan Male 18-29
    35 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 2:32 pm
    Well, I`m glad they killed that giraffe to prove it. I wouldn`t have believed it otherwise.
  113. Profile photo of GolfPunk69
    GolfPunk69 Male 30-39
    58 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 3:36 pm
    @Handys

    A) Excellent, Jesus wasn`t crucified by his disciples then. Nonetheless, If you want Richard Dawkins dead, you`re still gonna have to do it yourself.

    B) So how does the clotting of blood and stabbing a giraffe with a syringe affect the length of the laryngeal nerve? Obviously I can`t see it, and I`d appreciate you showing me. I don`t profess to everything about biology, but I am keen to learn.

    I think you`re last point`s been suitably trolled by just about everyone else.
  114. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 6:42 pm
    We are not saying intelligent design is false. We are saying that evolution is the stronger theory. For that to change, intelligent design needs to prove itself to be stronger than evolution.

    That would be true if ID was a theory.

    But it isn`t. At most, it`s an untestable hypothesis.

    There`s no comparison between the two.
  115. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 8:32 pm
    Funnily enough, the go-to ID example of the "irreducibly complex" human eye is a good illustration of this. The way the optical nerve connects to the back of the eye causes a blind spot right in the centre.
    Indeed, not to mention the fact that our retina in on backwards. Seriously, look dat sh*t up.
  116. Profile photo of hypno1
    hypno1 Male 30-39
    69 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 8:40 pm
    Boomersooner

    I agree with your statement that it doesn`t do any good to tell someone that they are wrong, especially if it challenges a tenet of faith.

    That being said, I will take empirical evidence over anecdotes every time. Does the evidence answer all the questions? Absolutely not. But the gap between truth and supposition is narrowing all the time. It just aggravates me sometimes that the only argument for ID is "prove that it isn`t". It`s a null argument without any logical or intellectual rigor.

    BTW, I graduated from OU with a degree in Zoology. :)
  117. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 9:54 pm
    @golfPunk69

    Geez brah who said anything about killing Dawkins. It`s about leading with deception and you hanging on to every word as gospel. Are you religious then?

    Second - the question was directed at almightybob for me to ascertain his knowledge on the physiology of the giraffe that all you amateur experts claim to know. Since almightybob1 answered honestly that his knowledge is toward Electrical Engineering I cut some slack and gave more detail on the giraffe physiology.

    However since you like to pretend you know the terminology in plain English. Also your great knowledge of the anatomy and physiology of the giraffe with several years of research. Please cut the hyperbole and show me your knowledge of veterinary medicine. Answer the question. Doing so will tell me you know what your talking about.

    Tell me the mean prothombin time and a mean activated thromboplastin time of a male during a manual restraint and jugular venipuncture for hemoglobin
  118. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 9:58 pm
    @GolfPunk69
    values. Then giving me for tiger sharks and Bull sharks while your at it. Maybe you can come over here for some marine biology research on such and direct us on how to do it.

    Third - precisely the point you said "trolled". In other words hate filled supposition with no fact for basis. Thank You for backing my points.
  119. Profile photo of GolfPunk69
    GolfPunk69 Male 30-39
    58 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 10:08 pm
    Which bit of "I don`t profess to <know> everything about biology, but I am keen to learn" are you struggling with? It`s pretty obvious that I`ve looked up a few of the words and mashed together a rough approximation of a meaning.

    So I`m asking for enlightenment. How does the sentence you`ve posted have anything to do with the evolutionary relic that is the path of the Laryngeal Nerve?

    and

    "For crying out loud just crucify him..." - Handys003.

    I hope you enjoyed your fishing / diving.
  120. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 10:28 pm
    handys003, with all due respect, you`re being a bit of a dick. Challenging others to espouse on your particular specific branch of scientific endeavour, whatever that may be, and cheapifying their opinion by your scientific standards, is a bit weak.

    I have a PhD in geoscience. Yet I don`t demand that people study my particular branch of science to qualify to be in a position to make comment on it.

    I could just as easily demand (and by extension, be an asshat) that no-one is allowed to comment on evolution unless they had studied palaeontology.

    Who are you to claim that no-one is qualified to comment on evolution unless they`ve studied your particular flavour of anatomy/physiology?
  121. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 10:38 pm
    @GolfPunk69

    Oh I see where your referring now. The phrase is in reference toward being a martyr for the sins of others.

    In other words. Everyone seems to take him as the Messiah on Evolution. Dawkins seems bent on proving all opposition wrong to the point of leaving out minute, but necessary information to prove his point. He`s taking the Cross on his shoulders for the Evolutionist himself. Maybe that is what he wants? IDK?

    He doesn`t have to do it all himself. His cynicism doesn`t help either. It only alienates from others who are religious only get more angrier. It harms your stance with that kind of attitude. He is viewed as evil; will only be met with closed ears; instead of open ones. He doesn`t come off sincere, and with a chip on his shoulder. He`s a great scientist, but other than expressing his knowledge in easier terms. He does not well at relating to those who come in with a gun so to speak. Aimed at him. He needs to learn how to disarm with char
  122. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    November 4, 2010 at 10:43 pm
    @davymid

    Yes I can be one at times. However I`m not challenging on their knowledge of evolution. I`m challenging those who tell me I do not know what I`m talking about on the physiology of giraffes. If I commented on you being stupid on geology would you not be a dick too?
  123. Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    November 5, 2010 at 1:02 am
    @handys003: As far as I can see, Bob simply challenged your assertion with a reasonable argument that a short nerve located in the skull was less likely to tear and instead of replying with a reasoned argument why he was wrong based on your expertise, you replied with indignation that he dared to challenge you, the expert. If you are such an expert, then it should be very easy for you to debunk our rediculous theories rather than holding your expertise up as some kind of idol we should all be bowing to.
  124. Profile photo of CallofKtulu
    CallofKtulu Male 18-29
    245 posts
    November 5, 2010 at 2:40 am
    "He is viewed as evil; will only be met with closed ears; instead of open ones."

    Woah woah woah hold it right there. I have a PhD in Semicolonology and that is *not* how you use a semicolon. And I dare you to find someone with a degree in semicolonology to make a rebuttle.
  125. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    November 5, 2010 at 3:45 am
    @CallofKtulu

    LOL! Caught me cheating huh? I was trying to fit everything under the 1000 character limit instead of going to create another page.
  126. Profile photo of handys003
    handys003 Male 50-59
    2402 posts
    November 5, 2010 at 4:19 am
    To all the other Dawkins cultists. Just stop. It`s apparent your just as obsessed as Christians with Creationism and ID proponents. I explained why the nerve is long by it`s purpose intended developed through years of evolution. Dawkins wants to end the nerve at the larynx. What he fails to tell you why it is developed long through evolution in order to support a false assertion toward his supposition. The nerve was developed that way (long) for it`s adaptation for todays environment. Who knows 2000 years from now a natural selection will occur and some part of the giraffe`s anatomy may change to fit that times environment. Until then it`s made long. It has nothing to do with imperfection. The nerve has a necessary function. Read the other thread back a few pages if your lost on it`s use. I`m done answering every question from every person from around the world who has an objection. This could go on forever as handys003 rule #2 applies. "There will always be in need of opposition&
  127. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    November 5, 2010 at 4:26 am
    "Well, I`m glad they killed that giraffe to prove it. I wouldn`t have believed it otherwise."

    They didn`t. Why would you assume that?

    I watched this programme in full when it first aired on television. They made very clear that the animal died of natural causes.
  128. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    November 5, 2010 at 4:31 am
    @handys003

    A man educated in veterinary medicine trying to claim special insight into evolutionary theory is like a skilled auto mechanic trying to claim special insight into automotive research and development.

    I`m not saying you don`t know your stuff, but your professional field does not automatically make you the expert over us. If you say something that`s wrong, it`s still wrong, regardless of what pedestal you`re standing on.

    Something that, incidentally, applies to Dawkins. If he said the moon was made of apples, we would not believe him.

    If the bible said the moon was made of apples, however, I wonder how many people would believe it.
  129. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    November 5, 2010 at 4:40 am
    @handys003

    "It only alienates from others who are religious only get more angrier."

    I don`t know about you, but it seems to me that the religious tend to get angry all by themselves, without Dawkins around.

    "I explained why the nerve is long by it`s purpose intended developed through years of evolution."

    This sentence clearly indicates that you haven`t quite grasped the concept of evolution, if you truly believe that there is an "intended purpose" involved in the process.

    I can see why someone like you might think Dawkins is a cult leader, when you claim to believe in something without first understanding it. You probably believe that because you do it, everyone else does the same as you, and that we all "follow" Dawkins without understanding what he`s saying. I assure you, that this is not the case.
  130. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    November 5, 2010 at 5:55 am
    C`mon then handys003 give us the beneift of your expertise in animal design.

    Explain some of the other legacy structures in organisms. Our appendix. A Kiwi`s vestigial wings. A whales pelvic girdle.

    You like your fishies - what about the fact that artificial selection as a driver has been backed up by controlled experiments withguppies
  131. Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    November 5, 2010 at 8:54 am
    Oh, please explain my favorite. Why were Rabbits "designed" in such a way that they are required to eat their own cecal (poop) pellets? I love watching ID`ers explain that one.
  132. Profile photo of vorpalsword
    vorpalsword Male 18-29
    1452 posts
    November 5, 2010 at 9:31 am
    oh lord I hope Opie doesn`t see this
  133. Profile photo of trelina
    trelina Female 18-29
    249 posts
    November 5, 2010 at 1:53 pm
    @musuko

    and why can`t an auto mechanic have special insight into research and development. and why can`t someone who is a practicing vet know about evolutionary theory. before there was research and before the theory of evolution there weren`t any experts on it. your argument makes no sense.
  134. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    November 5, 2010 at 3:43 pm
    I thought Musoko made his point quite eloquently, which is more than I can say for Trelina. Yousaywhat?
  135. Profile photo of skyblue_15
    skyblue_15 Female 18-29
    193 posts
    November 5, 2010 at 6:22 pm
    Mom there`s a dead giraffe on the table...
  136. Profile photo of ROK9
    ROK9 Male 18-29
    1834 posts
    November 7, 2010 at 10:28 pm
    lame
  137. Profile photo of chimmeychang
    chimmeychang Male 30-39
    685 posts
    November 8, 2010 at 7:36 am
    Interesting, but this is a perfect example of why I can not call myself an atheist. It is very arrogant to assume that there is not a reason for the nerve to be so close to the heart, and even more arrogant to present it as proof of anything but an example of our lack of understanding of the world at large,It may very well be that our bodies use this as a "timing chain" for vocalization. Religion does this all the time, but science, if it wants to be taken seriously, should hold itself to a higher standard.Also, i don`t understand why the burden of proof has been put on non theists. If you want me to believe something(and tithe 10% of my income, obey a bunch of arbitrary rules, and get on my knees and thank you for the opportunity to do so), you should really have a good reason.
  138. Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    November 8, 2010 at 12:53 pm
    i don`t understand why the burden of proof has been put on non theists
    Because an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof. The extraordinary claim of evolution has mountains of proof that has far exceeded the threshold of extraordinary decades ago. Now its time for religion to pony up.

    If you want me to believe something(and tithe 10% of my income, obey a bunch of arbitrary rules, and get on my knees and thank you for the opportunity to do so), you should really have a good reason
    How do you feel? Good? Healthy? Prosperous? Guess what? Science gave that to you. 30-39, you are past the average lifespan of those who were devoid of science. The results of science have clothed you, fed you, housed you, employed you, entertained you, made you healthy and long lived. But all you do is look for the arrogance in proofs and blindly give allegiance to your team as if this were a game.
  139. Profile photo of walkrunfly
    walkrunfly Male 18-29
    117 posts
    December 9, 2010 at 1:25 am
    When people stop looking at facts, they reject reality. There`s so much evidence for evolution, any more will make little difference.

    This whole deal saddens me, how centuries later we`re still dealing with arguments similar to Galileo and the heliocentric theory....
  140. Profile photo of 8BitHero
    8BitHero Male 18-29
    5414 posts
    December 16, 2010 at 7:29 am
    Very interesting :)

Leave a Reply