# America Isn`t Always Logical, OK? [Pic]

Submitted by: ManWithAnAxe 6 years ago in
254

We know, we know, but it"s too late to change it now...
254
Male 1,106
The way we write the date directly correlates to the way we would write it out longhand... 2/14/2010 = February 2, 2010. Makes sense to me.
Male 12,365
[quote]Umm, Angillion, one month is roughly equal to one lunar cycle. There are roughly twelve lunar cycles in one year. Coincidentally there are twelve months in a year. So there`s your fixed astronomical starting point...[/quote]

We use a solar calendar, not a lunar one. They don`t even have the same number of days in a year, so you can`t use one as a fixed astronomical starting point for the other.

It isn`t logical to divide a solar calendar on the basis of a lunar calendar. You`re right in that our current slightly slapdash system was pieced together that way, but people were talking about logical ways of labelling a calendar.
Male 18
@DuckBoy87
12 times 28 is 336. 13 times 28, on the other hand, is 364, almost dead on the year length. So I`d say it`s much closer to 13 lunar cycles per year, astronomically.

13 lunar months equal in length sounds like a great calendar system, come to think of it (if you can figure out what to do with the 1.25 extra days left).
Male 2
Who cares about dates. It`s thursday, the weekend is getting closer :D
Female 1,077
I don`t write it like that :/
Male 3,625
Umm, Angillion, one month is roughly equal to one lunar cycle. There are roughly twelve lunar cycles in one year. Coincidentally there are twelve months in a year. So there`s your fixed astronomical starting point...
Male 12,365
On the subject of custom and logic, there`s something we`re all accustomed to and therefore haven`t mentioned: the months.

It is not logical to split a year into 12 months with varying numbers of days in them. It`s just custom.

A more logical system would be to ditch the idea of months entirely and just have days. Also, to have a fixed starting point based on something objective, which could be sourced from astronomy. Just find something that happened before human civilisation started and date from that. So you`d have something like 196/12018 - day 196 of year 12018.
Male 12,365
[quote]So, if it`s 16/11/2010 in Europe, is it also 16 November 2010? No trolling, just curious.[/quote]

16/11/2010 here in the UK would be spoken as "the 16th of November two thousand and ten" or "the 16th of November twenty ten".

It would be the same date in Europe, but I`ve no idea how it would be spoken in the numerous languages of Europe. It`s been day/month/year for all of recorded history, for places in Europe that used a calendar with days and months. It used to be day/month/year in America. I don`t know why the custom changed there to month/day/year. Maybe just for the sake of being different.
Female 3,598
FnCK YEAH!!!
Male 1,598
This is a hilarious and pointless flame war... Oh wait, those usually go together anyway.
Male 4
what the hell hapened on the 9th of november anyway?
Male 3
At the end of the day it is about personal preference. You don`t have to falsify logic for an arguement, simply state you do it how you are comfortable and no one can take issue with that.

Logically speaking dd/mm/yy is the most sensible for humans, yyyy/mm/dd is the most sensible for machines, no arguement there.

Americans have declared several petty little ways for independence in their English-US language, such as removing u`s from several words like honour, valour and colour, as well as removing an i in aluminium and the a from paedophile. So what? It`s widely accepted now for people to spell it either way, just like how it isn`t that tough usually to figure out if a data source is formatting their time dd/mm/yy or mm/dd/yy. So seriously, stop trying to make logical arguements for why mm/dd/yy is superior because it cannot be done unless you employ some ridiculous concepts that will make you look foolish.
Male 247
@Collinh your example would fail in some cases without the zeros:
2002/1/15
2002/10/7
2002/2/20
2002/3/17

With zeros:
2002/01/15
2002/02/20
2002/03/17
2002/10/07
Male 247
@coedog - agamemnon is correct, when the date is properly formatted YYYY/MM/DD they will be in chronological order when sorted alphabetically OR numerically.
Male 247
Collinh, your dates do not match your format. When your format is YYYY/MM/DD, you need to include the zeros. It should be:
1876/02/30
1985/06/20
1999/02/05
2000/06/19
2002/06/19
2004/01/19
2004/01/20
2004/02/01
Male 1,243
DD MM YYYY, quite simply makes more sense when dates are written.
Male 182
Also, if we`re talking efficiency it`s MUCH more efficient to have the day first. For most puposes, the day is the only information that we actually need to know about.

I know that it is 2010 and that it is November so when I ask someone what the date is, I get the reply:

"It`s the 17th."

The month only comes into play if we`re asking about a date that is more than a month into the future or the past; and the year only comes into play if we`re looking more than a year away. It just makes sense to have the dates in this order as there aren`t many situations where you need to know the month without also knowing the day first.
Male 232
actually collinh, technically it should be "May The 15th"
Hooray for laziness.
Male 22
@coedog actually i think you`re wrong and he`s right - except he meant when they`re sorted alphanumerically, as in alphabetically AND numerically sorted. Yes the months, when spelled out, aren`t in alpha order... but the numbers are.

example dates sorted alpha-numerically MM/DD/YYYY:

1/19/2004
1/20/2004
2/1/2004
2/5/1999
2/30/1876
6/19/2000
6/19/2002
6/20/1985

clearly not in chronological order, yes?

Now here they are sorted YYYY/MM/DD

1876/2/30
1985/6/20
1999/2/5
2000/6/19
2002/6/19
2004/1/19
2004/1/20
2004/2/1

see. chronological order AND numerical order.
Male 22
"it sounds better in our english language when you state the month first. it`s as simple as that"

indeed. when you state the day first you have to include an extra word... "of"

15th OF May

if you state the month first you can do it in fewer words. May 15th.

hooray for efficiency.
Male 22
well the majority of the time ends up being:

smallest number -> bigger number -> biggest number

Month (1-12) -> Day (1-30/31) -> Year (0-infinity)

If I had my choice I think it should go from largest to smallest as if it were focusing in on the most detailed part of the date.

Year -> Month of the year -> day of the month

2010/11/17

Just like if you were to describe an object, like a car for example. it`s a "Blue Mazda 3 hatchback sport edition". Least Unique descriptor -> most unique descriptor. This way you eliminate the largest chunks of information at the beginning as you whittle it down from broadest to narrowest information.
Male 255
Time traveler is the argument for not knowing what month it is? Just referencing someone`s birthday outside of the current month, or any past or future event, I would say May 15, not 15th of May.
Female 251
It`s easier for a person like me to read it all the other way around, but probably because i`m english. I normally know exactly what month it is, so I just need to see the first number to check the day.
(If that makes sense!)
So yeah, for me it doesn`t make any sense to have the month first. It confuses me when I see american dates sometimes.
And I also say the date before the month so it makes further sense for me... but in the US you may say it the other way which in fact is probably why the dates are written differently :) xx
Male 644
romanwho made the most sense of it....

romanwho
Male, 13-17, Eastern US

Tuesday, November 16, 2010 9:43:12 PM
I thought it was just an abbreviation for Month Day, Year

January 15th, 2010 = 1/15/10

I concur....

Female 39
See I say the date "the fourth of december" etcetc, so it doesn`t make logical sense at all..
Male 541
Well it`s like saying the month, then the day of the month. it`s just easier. also having numbers build from left to right also just looks nicer. and because when you say the date everyone (most the time) says the month first anyways.

but which would you rather have to see all the time:

6/24/2010 or 24/6/2010
Male 337
@Isafan

"Actually if you think about it, it makes perfectly good sense to do Month/Day. After counting past one hundred you don`t do (01)1 (02)1 (03)1 and so forth. "

Not really, it`s like saying minute, second, hour...it just doesn`t work that way
Male 8,302
It makes perfect sense for computers to sort numerically, so the rest of the world should follow the US`s lead, at least in this case. HOWEVER, to be PERFECTLY logical and provide the best result for computer sorting, it should be YEAR / MONTH / DAY. Put a list of dates in different years into a database using the current US system and all the months of different years will be sorted together.
Male 119
I thought it was just an abbreviation for Month Day, Year

January 15th, 2010 = 1/15/10
Male 243
Actually if you think about it, it makes perfectly good sense to do Month/Day. After counting past one hundred you don`t do (01)1 (02)1 (03)1 and so forth.

Yet... we`re the oddballs?

Male 256
@agamemnon ... a half apology. When you used the word "alphabetical" I took it too literally. You meant in numerical order, which would yes put the dates in chronological order.
Male 418
Agamemnon,

Funny to say that because that is the US military way of listing dates. It does make a lot more sense.
Male 256
@agamemnon ... I want you to think about what you just said. And then realize that the months of the year do not fall in alphabetical order and neither do the written out numerals that would signify the days or the years.
Male 5,189
I do that. :(
Male 182
"it sounds better in our english language when you state the month first. it`s as simple as that"

Your english language? You`re from the US! We stole it first!!! ;)
Male 2,893
Stupid Smarch weather.
Male 936
it sounds better in our english language when you state the month first. it`s as simple as that
Male 215
YYYY/MM/DD would be the most logical. That way, when you sort dates in alphabetical order, they`ll be in chronological order.
Female 249
@mv you got a point
Male 1,222
Pff what about feet? yards? miles? inches? farenheit? soccer? gallons? pounds?
Male 527
So, if it`s 16/11/2010 in Europe, is it also 16 November 2010? No trolling, just curious.
Male 214
"Of all the things you could use to make fun of America, this is what you choose? Seriously? You people aren`t even trying anymore."
they dont have to haha
Male 838
Of all the things you could use to make fun of America, this is what you choose? Seriously? You people aren`t even trying anymore.
Male 251
@CDEEU

Just going to throw this out there; the USMILITARY, in some cases, uses year, month, day as all one number. So today would be 20101116. Fun huh

Fixed. D< You`re not special.
Male 759
If you don`t like it, don`t use it. The rest of the world is happy to use KPH and day/month/year, so keep doing it. I`m happy using MPH and month/day/year. Nobody is asking you to move to America. If you`re complaining because the internet makes you use it, or your wrist watch is setup that way then maybe you should move to a country that produces something other than bitter disdain for the rest of the world. Take that UK.
Male 958
cudo to hex for explaining this faggotry to the Eurodippoos.
Male 18
Just going to throw this out there; the USAF, in some cases, uses year, month, day as all one number. So today would be 20101116. Fun huh
Male 3
"Unless you are an incompetent time traveller or a recovering coma victim the first thing you want to know is what day it is, you should already know the month." most logical arguement for dd/mm/yyyy tbh. I mean at the end of the day, if someone asks you what day it is, you`re more likely to say "It`s Tuesday the 16th of November" rather than "It`s Tuesday, November 16th". The day of the month is the most valuable piece of data, and should be presented first.

"The Day gives you no useful info. It`s the 13th? Of what? The 13th means nothing.

If you lead with the month, at least you know what time of year it is. December? Winter. July? Summer.

The hierarchy should be structured by the data that gives the most information."

Sorry, I have nothing else to say to that other than; Ahahahaha, hah hah, hah. You sir, crack me up with your "awesome" logic.

Cudos to the Americans that can see real logic
Male 206
---------/*\---------
--------/***\--------
-------/MONTH\-------
------/_______\------
-----/*********\-----
----/****DAY****\----
---/_____________\---
--/***************\--
-/******YEAR*******\-
/___________________\

problem solved!
Male 12,365
[quote]What calendars do you buy that have so many years that you would have trouble finding the right one?[/quote]

Mayan!

Fetch my wooden spoon, I have a pot of conspiracies to stir. Muahahahaha!
Male 12,365
[quote]That`s the best you got? It`s listed like a normal person would say it November 16th, 2010. If you said 16th November 2010 you`d sound like a robot.[/quote]

16th of November, 2010. Not 16th November 2010.

It`s really just custom. People can try various retcons to create a rational reason for it, but they`re just retcons. It`s the custom in the USA to use month/day/year and it`s the custom everywhere else in the world that uses the same calendar to use day/month/year.

So if you`re really bothered about what`s normal, sucks to be you because the USA custom is abnormal. Many more people use day/month/year than month/day/year.

Day/month/year might have its roots in the start of our calendar, ancient Rome, e.g. Kalends of Martius 453 AUC. 1st of March 300 BC. You can see the connection and why it leads to a day/month/year format.
Male 271
@jasonbobdude
unfortunately you spelled "independence day" wrong
Male 1,357
"Backward Date" that would be 1776, July 4th.
It`s perfectly logical to go DD/MM/YYYY!
Male 638
The Declaration of independence Reads July 4, 1776. Right there we were telling the Limeys that we have had enough of their messed up backward date crap.That is probably what started the Revolution.
Male 638
", you don`t go through a bunch of calenders trying to find the right year, now do you? By that logic, it should be yy/mm/dd
""

What calendars do you buy that have so many years that you would have trouble finding the right one?
Male 1,081
There are 12 months 28-31 days and infinite years, so that`s how it goes over in America.
Male 1,598
But then the most American day of them all is always called the "Fourth of July." Because we are geniuses.
Male 419
lolol so true. we americans are quite special.
Male 271
heurex for the win!

good work dude.
Male 768
@Mstar2069-"So, when telling time we should say the minutes, then the hour. If we are going by smallest unit first. It is currently 34 seconds after the 19th minute of the 1:00 hour. No, it`s 1:19PM."

Well I would say it is 19 past 1..
Male 4,546
The reason America does it that way (I`ve heard, not researched) is the pronunciation in words. "March 4th, 1983".
Female 1,441
I know as an American I`m supposed to write it that way but I`ve always written it day/month/year just out of habit. No one told me too it just made sense when I was kid.
Male 14,331
@TKD_Master

Have fun banking they`ll be the one telling you to eat poo and die.
Male 15
ummmm I am no math major but if I have 3650 pages... ONLY 3650 pieces of paper... why on earth would I ever end up looking at more than that in ANY case to find one piece of paper...

And besides you forgot leap year...
Male 4,793
"Day, month, year <b>is</b> more efficient. "

Not only that, but it makes chronological sense. Which is why I always write my dates in day/month/year format, the rest of America can eat poo and die if they get confused by it.
Male 3,625
I would say month is primarily important, especially in agricultural areas. The month is based on lunar cycles and denotes season, where applicable. Pennsylvania, for one, has four distinct seasons and knowing whether it will snow soon will determine what, if anything, they should be planting.

Food > time
Male 25,417
I dont get it, but i laugh to be part of the crowd :)
Male 1,399
The Day gives you no useful info. It`s the 13th? Of what? The 13th means nothing.

If you lead with the month, at least you know what time of year it is. December? Winter. July? Summer.

The hierarchy should be structured by the data that gives the most information.
Male 1,054
Just crunching some numbers to try it out - if you have 1 dated piece of paper for each day for ten years, (3650 pieces of paper)and you want to find a particular piece of paper for a particular date

if you search year, month, day - you`ll look at up to 4045 pieces of paper. (3650+365+30)

if you search month, day, year - you`ll look at up to 3960 pieces of paper (3650+300+10)

if you search month,year, day - you`ll look at up to 3800 pieces of paper (3650+120+30)

if you search day, month, year - you`ll look at up to 3782 pieces of paper (3650+120+12)

Day, month, year <b>is</b> more efficient.
Male 1,116
Who f*cking cares. It works for us, lets just keep it the way it is.
Male 2,121
Unless you are an incompetent time traveller or a recovering coma victim the first thing you want to know is what day it is, you should already know the month.
Male 256
@OldOllie
I would say the 6th of June.
Male 1,054
"The day is the smallest `measurement`... followed by a month and then a year. "

Yes and no. As divisions of a year, days are the smallest measurement. But, as divisions of all time, there have been more days than months or years. In other words, the largest data set is actually days, because month is a grouping of days, and years are groupings of days.

Male 247
dammit! I hate when somebody says what I`m thinking before I get a chance to :-/
Male 247
Actually you`re all wrong. It _should_ be year-month-day. That way when you sort a bunch of dates they will actually be sorted in chronological order.
Male 15,832
[quote]...if someone asks your birthday, do you say 6 june or june 6th?[/quote]
If we used YYYY/MM/DD, we could still say "June 6th."
Male 54
"i write it like i say it. if someone asks your birthday, do you say 6 june or june 6th?
I say "June 6th", too."

I say "6th of June" :D

"it`s totally logical because when you`re looking for a date on a calendar you find the month first then the day. You don`t look at every 16th then see if you`re in the right month"

By that logic, you don`t go through a bunch of calenders trying to find the right year, now do you? By that logic, it should be yy/mm/dd
Male 15,832
Actually, the whole f***ing world is wrong on this. We should list dates as YYYY/MM/DD, with leading zeros on the month and day, so they will sort without having to put them through some elaborate parsing routine.

I number my invoices YYYYMMDD-XX so I can find them quickly. (If I ever need to send more than 99 invoices in a day, I`ll switch to hex for the last two digits.)
Male 2,441
I agree with dave
Male 541
it`s totally logical because when you`re looking for a date on a calendar you find the month first then the day. You don`t look at every 16th then see if you`re in the right month
Male 535
@Mstar2069
when you`re telling the time you still make use of this pyramid. but you go biggest unit first, and then smaller. still you have a system and do not go all messed up from midle to top to bottom like america does with their dates.
Male 183
I would say dd/mm/yy is logical because days are fractions of months, which are fractions of years. dd<mm<yy.
Male 593
The day is the smallest `measurement`... followed by a month and then a year. This is why some would consider the American way incorrect. Anyway, it`s a minor inconvenience so it`s only if you want to get technical... :D
Male 840
Yeah, jimbro!

[quote]i write it like i say it. if someone asks your birthday, do you say 6 june or june 6th?[/quote] I say "June 6th", too.

This doesn`t bother me so much but it would be nice if everyone was on the same page. What really bothers me is the metric system. When I was in high school (graduated in 1971) they told me we were going to convert to the metric system so get used to it. It is 2010 and people like Rick Sanchez on CNN actually say on TV "ocean swells up to 9 meters high? What does that mean in English?" Let`s just get over ourselves and convert to the metric system already!
Male 9
So, when telling time we should say the minutes, then the hour. If we are going by smallest unit first. It is currently 34 seconds after the 19th minute of the 1:00 hour. No, it`s 1:19PM.
Male 509
"if someone asks your birthday, do you say 6 june or june 6th?"
Neither, I say 6th of May :-D
Male 509
"That`s silly. If you pick up a calendar, and it`s closed, which do you flip to first? The DAY of the month? Of course not, you have to flip to the right month FIRST."

So by that logic, why don`t you put the year first when you write it? Surely you`d have to get a calendar for the right year first...
Male 67
Again, pretty graphics making people think that it`s logical. What is more logical about DD/MM/YY than MM/DD/YY? Oh, it goes by increasing maximum number. It`s also drating alphabetical. Who cares? Many people the world over presume logic in the way that they do things because they like to think that they`re better. Note that I`m not saying that MM/DD/YY is better. It`s just different.
Male 1,623
"That`s silly. If you pick up a calendar, and it`s closed, which do you flip to first? The DAY of the month? Of course not, you have to flip to the right month FIRST."

And when you measure something you use your thumb, right?
Female 525
That`s silly. If you pick up a calendar, and it`s closed, which do you flip to first? The DAY of the month? Of course not, you have to flip to the right month FIRST.
Male 5,194

Male 23
i COULD NOT care less.
Female 688
America, fck yeah! here to save, the motherfcking day yeah!
Male 876
I`d just like to say that I don`t care how any of you all write out the date.
Female 1,798
I agree with Nitro. I`d much rather say "November 16" than "16 of November".
Male 1,184
"So Year, Month, day. But I don`t know anyone else who does that."

Everyone who speaks Japanese.
Male 1,226
"I name computer files with YYMMDD, like today is 101116 (2010, Nov, 16) This is the most logical because when you sort files, they will always be in correct order. So Year, Month, day. But I don`t know anyone else who does that. So much for logic... "

I do! At least for my photograph folders.
Male 3,915
competely agree with nitro junkie....

november sixteenth sounds a whole lot better than the sixteenth of november....

but again....we REALLY need the metric system....

GUYS! it will make us think we are going so fast!
Male 628
@jimbro i say 15th of july, just like i write it
Male 397
This is not nearly as bad as their measurement system.
Male 2,796
I give people hell all the time for writing only numbers for the date... because that poo`s confusing as hell. Nobody should have to decipher a date. If you must, use a Julian date if you just want to use numbers.
Male 3,842
[quote]I name computer files with YYMMDD, like today is 101116 (2010, Nov, 16) This is the most logical because when you sort files, they will always be in correct order. So Year, Month, day. But I don`t know anyone else who does that. So much for logic...[/quote]

I do that, too. Today`s file name is 2010-11-16 so I can sort by name and they end up in correct sequence from newest to oldest.
Male 758
It makes more sense and flows more easily to say `November Sixteenth` rather than `The sixteenth of November`.

But I totally agree about switching to the metric system.
Male 2,796
Military uses Day, Month, Year.

Today would be 16NOV10
Male 1,021
I name computer files with YYMMDD, like today is 101116 (2010, Nov, 16) This is the most logical because when you sort files, they will always be in correct order. So Year, Month, day. But I don`t know anyone else who does that. So much for logic...
Male 625
DixxyRarr - Well, that`s not a very american attitude.
The proper way to say it:
"I wish the rest of the world would get on board and ditch the metric system. Its annoying... and I think the rest of the world is just being stubborn."
Male 183
i write it like i say it. if someone asks your birthday, do you say 6 june or june 6th?
Female 2,674
Yeah, I wish the US would change this along with changing to the metric system. It`s annoying... and I personally think is just the US being stubborn.
Male 86
16th November much, Sathon?
Male 85
well actually it makes perfect sense. Perspective: if you look at the first number when it`s day/month/year. there are 12 different 15ths indicating 12 different points of the year you could be in. then you go to the month to get a better perspective, then to the year to figure out where in the grand scheme of all time you are. if its month/day/year. you say ok im 1/4 of the way through the year, its spring. then how far through the 30 day time frame we already know we are in. then you look at the year to put you in your time machine. ive used both in my life, and this way just makes more practical sense, unless you put it the way you did with the picture.
Male 248
Well this wouldn`t be a problem in the first place is people would stop being lazy and just write out full dates.

I write "November 16, 2010." If there isn`t enough room, "Nov 16, 2010."
Male 605
Ha, yes. This has bothered me for years.
Male 625
Nidonemo - That is simply too great for an acronym to do any justice. Very nicely done.
Male 122
When writing numerical dates, I have been using ISO format YYYY-MM-DD ever since we prepared for y2k. It is unambiguous and sorts correctly when used in tables or file names.

Quite unlike 01.02.03 or 02/01/03 which used to be valid dates seven years ago. However, dear US, before you work on that, get rid of miles and gallons first. ;-)

k-two 2010-11-16
Male 9,305
"Oh and if you answered "Yes" to the last question, do the world a favor and get a life."

You`re arguing on the internet sweetie, on a website full of an age demographic of teenager-to-college. The argument won`t be remembered past this afternoon if a flame war doesn`t break out.
Male 4,680
@xKiesix- What question?!
Female 448
Is anyone else sick of an American website criticizing mundane American habits? Does anyone REALLY care all that much?

Oh and if you answered "Yes" to the last question, do the world a favor and get a life.
Male 177
Um, America is RARELY logical. Elitist, yes. Arrogant, yes. Logical, hardly. We suck at that.
Male 577
It`s listed the normal way that a person would say it, just like other people mentioned.

Yeah, and I believe that people get their checks handed back for writing it the other way. I supervise cashiers, and at least half of them don`t seem to have a grasp on military time. It`s sad. The register shows military time, and they`re always having to ask me what time it is.
Male 15,510
It is Tuesday, 16th of November, 2010, here where I live
Male 3,425
@McGovern - not really... It`s listed how a normal AMERICAN would say it, and it`s said that way because it`s written that way. The rest of the countries in the world say it "16th of November 2010".
Male 9,305
Yeah that really screws me up when I see something like

3-6-2010
Male 271
my issue is... having lived in NY for a year now, i still, occassionally write checks (see, i spelt that like an american) the english way. Now, obviously i think im right, and im logical, but that doesnt really matter... its just custom, and i am a guest in the states. whatever.

but here is my issue... i have had checks refused because i have written "24/6/10" or something like that.

where is the sense in that??? last time i checked, there`s only 12 of these months..
Male 14,331
That`s the best you got? It`s listed like a normal person would say it November 16th, 2010. If you said 16th November 2010 you`d sound like a robot.
Male 5,314
suck it world!!!
Male 3,425
Up until the age of like 15 I though 9/11 happened on the 9th of November... stupid American system.
Male 47
I`ve been living in Texas almost 10 years and I still get this wrong...
Male 5,094
*puts on flame-proof suit and breaks out the popcorn*
Male 39,619
in the U.S. military, it`s done Day-Month-Year like the rest of the world.
Male 6,694
11/16/2010
Thats whats up.
Male 271
never too late!!!
Male 17,512
Actually Month/Day/Year does make sense, They are listed in order of increasing maximum number
12 months, 31 days (some with less), and thousands of years.
Male 253
Link: America Isn`t Always Logical, OK? [Pic] [Rate Link] - We know, we know, but it`s too late to change it now...