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Date: 10/16/10 12:48 PM

153 Responses to It Gets Better: Bishop Robinson of New Hampshire

  1. Profile photo of bryantm3
    bryantm3 Male 18-29
    179 posts
    October 15, 2010 at 12:49 am
    Link: It Gets Better: Bishop Robinson of New Hampshire - Bishop Gene Robinson declares it`s OK to be gay and religious.
  2. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 1:06 pm
    Damn. Now I have to go to the store to stock up on popcorn for this one...
  3. Profile photo of Pandabee
    Pandabee Female 40-49
    857 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 1:07 pm
    God bless him, well said Sir.
  4. Profile photo of NoArms5534
    NoArms5534 Male 18-29
    196 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 1:22 pm
    Sure it is. But if you`re a Christian, you should also know DOING gay things is wrong. If you believe the Bible, that is.
  5. Profile photo of Ajikan
    Ajikan Male 18-29
    1526 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 1:24 pm
    so god made mass murderers to, so they shouldn`t change?
    not comparing homosexuals to mass murderers, only challenging the concept of an all loving god.
  6. Profile photo of bmh
    bmh Female 18-29
    248 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 1:34 pm
    Aww I teared up at this.
  7. Profile photo of HunterKiller
    HunterKiller Male 18-29
    363 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 1:59 pm
    God is against evil. Mass murder= evil. Gay doesn`t necessarily mean evil. Make a better argument.
  8. Profile photo of duffytoler
    duffytoler Male 40-49
    5195 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 2:02 pm
    Gee, a Catholic priest who isn`t a raging hypocrite. Should put him in a zoo or something so everyone can see.
  9. Profile photo of TokioKoos
    TokioKoos Female 18-29
    412 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 2:16 pm
    duffytoler: He isn`t Catholic, he says at the beginning he is Episcopal.

    Anyway, go bishop!!
  10. Profile photo of sirryan1
    sirryan1 Male 30-39
    15 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 2:17 pm
    lol you all are dumb as a box of rocks. Burn in hell.
  11. Profile photo of sheaton319
    sheaton319 Male 18-29
    560 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 2:17 pm
    "Gee, a Catholic priest who isn`t a raging hypocrite. Should put him in a zoo or something so everyone can see."

    Pay attention. He is not catholic he is from the Episcopal Church.
  12. Profile photo of GRadde
    GRadde Male 18-29
    2556 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 2:35 pm
    Yeay for an uplifting Christian post on IAB. ^^

    But I was just the teensiest bit annoyed by how he said "your wildest imagining." I mean, it`s not that it`s not grammatically correct, it absolutely is, but it sounds... awkward. Perhaps only to me, but nonetheless.
  13. Profile photo of DixxyRarr
    DixxyRarr Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 2:38 pm
    I LOVE being "not straight". It`s the best thing that`s ever happened to me. I`ve always known that I was into girls, and I`ve never thought of it as a bad thing or a dirty secret. I grew up in a religious family, and it never crossed my mind that God (or whatever) didn`t intend for me to be this way.
    I have a tendency to forget that some people think of it as a curse, and not a blessing. (And believe you me, it IS a blessing!)
    But I`m glad IAB`s been posting these "It Gets Better" links, it helps me to remember that there are some people out there that need support and someone to help them see the wonderful side of being LGBT.
  14. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 3:04 pm
    Wow look at the pretty flowers :)
  15. Profile photo of Samantha2188
    Samantha2188 Female 18-29
    1 post
    October 16, 2010 at 3:20 pm
    I like this message. Finally someone who has it right, God doesn`t hate people b/c of the way they are/live, growing up in church i have always struggled with the fact that "religious" people say it`s wrong and bad and that god hates them. No. God loves everyone just as they are...it doesn`t matter.
  16. Profile photo of gorgack2000
    gorgack2000 Male 13-17
    4682 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 3:30 pm
    The AmazingAthiest is probably crying into his neckbeard after seeing this. Oh no! Turns out that theists CAN be logical and thoughtful people! Everything he`s lived for turned out to be a lie!
  17. Profile photo of Nidonemo
    Nidonemo Male 18-29
    9308 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 3:45 pm
    Finally...
  18. Profile photo of BBQ
    BBQ Male 18-29
    467 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 4:12 pm
    Wow, it must`ve taken some amount of balls to actually say this for him. Although I don`t follow the whole "god" thing he`s talking about, I recognize and applaud how he accepts those who used to be shunned by the church. I give him all the props available.
  19. Profile photo of amgbac09
    amgbac09 Female 18-29
    33 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 4:26 pm
    I have a lot of respect for this man. A message of love and not hate. I don`t hear that much lately.
  20. Profile photo of splurbyburbl
    splurbyburbl Male 30-39
    2798 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 4:41 pm
    "The AmazingAthiest is probably crying into his neckbeard after seeing this. Oh no! Turns out that theists CAN be logical and thoughtful people! Everything he`s lived for turned out to be a lie!"

    You mean logical except for the fact of believing in an entity nobody can prove exists, or worshiping the original zombie... right? That`s the kind of logic of which you speak?
  21. Profile photo of splurbyburbl
    splurbyburbl Male 30-39
    2798 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 4:43 pm
    He forgot to say, "or maybe you live in an atheist household who don`t care what your sexuality is and therefore you don`t have any of these problems... go away."
  22. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 5:06 pm
    I have a lot of respect for this man. A message of love and not hate. I don`t hear that much lately.

    Church of England has been doing it for a long time. For example, they recommended repealing the laws against homosexuality in the UK, back in the 50s. It helped when they formally wrote and spoke in favour of repealing the laws, since they`re formally the state religion in England.

    They`ve been trying to unify radical reform and traditional conservative Christian beliefs for a long time without splitting the church, while remaining theologically sound. Hell of a job that`s led to some very shaky compromises. For example, for decades they`ve held the position that monogamous homosexual relationships are fine for other people but not for clergy. That doesn`t really make any sense, but it`s a compromise they could make work without splitting the church.
  23. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 5:09 pm
    Incidentally, this viewpoint isn`t new:

    I concluded that an active sexual relationship between two people of the same sex might therefore reflect the love of God in a way comparable to marriage, if and only if it had about it the same character of absolute covenanted faithfulness.

    Rowan Williams wrote that in 2002. He was the Archbishop of Wales at the time. He`s the Archbishop of Canterbury now, the highest position in the CofE. Technically speaking the monarch is the head of the church, but that doesn`t really count.
  24. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 5:21 pm
    Sure it is. But if you`re a Christian, you should also know DOING gay things is wrong. If you believe the Bible, that is.

    It isn`t that straightforward. It is possible to make a theologically sound argument that traditional interpretation is mistaken and Christianity does not condemn all homosexual sex. Some Christians do just that.

    The interpretation of a translation of an interpretation of the Christian bible that you`ve read (every existing Christian bible is that or that with extra steps of translation) might condemn all homosexual sex, but that doesn`t mean it`s right to do so. For example, the classic anti-homosexual statements are sex-specific in the older languages, applying to men only. So that`s lesbians off the hook. It`s also plausible that they only apply to men having sex with each other under very specific circumstances.

    If you`re interested, I could go into detail about the "maybe it`s not forbidden" arguments.
  25. Profile photo of SvampeBob
    SvampeBob Male 18-29
    3076 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 6:25 pm
    religious
    !
    without religion they wouldn`t have that much problem!
  26. Profile photo of SomeShoes
    SomeShoes Male 13-17
    2056 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 6:43 pm
    @SvampeBob agreed, and clever
  27. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 6:57 pm
    Sirryan1- It`s folks like you that give me such a strong belief in reincarnation, for surely Goddess is merciful enough to give you many, many lifetimes to burn that black stain off your soul.

    As the Buddhists say, Namaste.
  28. Profile photo of Jasonbobdude
    Jasonbobdude Male 18-29
    1598 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 7:30 pm
    This is the kind of religion I can support. If God hated anyone, he wouldn`t be worth believing in.
  29. Profile photo of mrbear10
    mrbear10 Female 13-17
    136 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 7:59 pm
    i agree with jasonbobdude. ive pretty much given up on religion because its so full of people who hate other people just because of what they do or who they are. this man gives me some hope that things will get better. at least i hope they do
  30. Profile photo of HokieHiTech
    HokieHiTech Male 18-29
    67 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 9:29 pm
    eww.
  31. Profile photo of Nidonemo
    Nidonemo Male 18-29
    9308 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 11:13 pm
    "If God hated anyone, he wouldn`t be worth believing in."

    And what kind of "all knowing" and "all loving" god would be so self-absorbed as to even entertain such petty emotions as hate, anger, and jealousy anyway? Sounds more like a selfish child than a god.
  32. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 11:49 pm
    Several people in this thread in the past: "Oh I don`t hate religious people, it`s only when they trample all over other people`s rights. I`m not some crazy bigot."

    Religious person in video: "Hey. I`m thoughtful and don`t trample all over other people`s rights."

    Several people: *RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE*

    Awwww. Did the thoughtful theist make it difficult to justify your anti-religious intolerance by citing religious intolerance? Awwwww. Poor wittle bebbies.


    Nidonemo:
    "And what kind of "all knowing" and "all loving" god would be so self-absorbed as to even entertain such petty emotions as hate, anger, and jealousy anyway? Sounds more like a selfish child than a god."

    Jealousy agreed.
    Hate/Anger? Depends on your definition of hate/anger. I think of God as quite binary, and therefore things are good vs bad in a very definitive way.
  33. Profile photo of hampoofegg
    hampoofegg Male 18-29
    337 posts
    October 16, 2010 at 11:49 pm
    This guy makes too much sense to be religious.
  34. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 12:28 am
    Basically:

    God understands (being omniscient) the outcome of action. There is no reason for God therefore to have a middle position.

    Either he objects definitively, or approves definitively.

    Now this doesn`t play through into general consensus. God understands that doesn`t apply on an individual level, which is where maybes and shades of grey come in.

    Hence, Islamically at least:
    Haram -> Makrouh -> Halal -> Fard.
    Don`t do it(Murder, theft).
    Try not to do it(be wasteful).
    Do it if you want nobody cares(eat chicken, use tape, tie shoelaces).
    Do it(give to charity).
  35. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 12:49 am
    God understands (being omniscient) the outcome of action. There is no reason for God therefore to have a middle position. Either he objects definitively, or approves definitively.
    Of course, your entire argument assumes that God exists. I`m just as much of a human as you, I`ve had similar experinces as you`ve had, even similar religious experiences (I was a Born-Again Christian for while. Halcyon days, euphoric even, but as I grew up I changed my mind).

    Now, can I gently suggest that we remove the elephant in the room? The "God"? Everyone has one. Everyone thinks their God is the right one. I suggest that the very *idea* of God is a logical fallacy. This Joker Card that trumps any logical discourse, should be removed, and we should all play fair, as a species? "God is all", "God is Love", etc?

    I`ll come back to the conversation when we remove God. We are not God. We don`t need a God. God does not exist.
  36. Profile photo of Tomi
    Tomi Male 18-29
    20 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 1:15 am
    It`s okay to be gay but not religious.
  37. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 3:14 am
    Davy:
    "Of course, your entire argument assumes that God exists."

    Actually, not really. I find that position unhelpful.

    I tend not to distinguish between God as real and God as a fictional character when it comes to debate.

    We can have the exact same argument about say...
    Wall-E.

    "I don`t think Wall-E feels hate" "Yes he does, he clearly gets angry in part X" "That`s just your human interpretation" etc.

    It doesn`t matter if he`s fictional or real. As a WH fan, you should be used to that. "I don`t think Slaneesh would do that, that`s more Tzeentch`s thing".

    Real or fictional is irrelevant unless we`re debating whether God is real/fictional. Which we (or at least I) wasn`t.

    (Also, my last post was a continuation of my response to Nido, maybe should have made that clearer).
  38. Profile photo of craftymiser
    craftymiser Male 30-39
    96 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 5:02 am
    Just another example of another religion giving up on a basic principle of the nature of the spirit. Our individual spirits are male or female. And our basic seeds of life require a man and a woman to create a new life. It`s too bad that this man can`t see that God can`t change his laws, or he would no longer be God. What this man is teaching is a complete fallacy of man, made up by man, for the use of man, when they can`t see anyone disciplining themselves to not give into temptation, to not give into the Enemy`s whispers.
  39. Profile photo of craftymiser
    craftymiser Male 30-39
    96 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 5:11 am
    In addition, God does love his children. All of us. And he doesn`t give one law for some to follow and another law for others to follow. He is not the author of confusion. For those of you thinking of letting go of life, don`t. He does love you and he does expect us all to follow his laws, and he always makes a way possible for us to do so.
  40. Profile photo of craftymiser
    craftymiser Male 30-39
    96 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 5:17 am
    And for those of you who don`t believe in God, try it first. Search for Him. He still believes in you and is giving you opportunity to find Him. Why do you think you are still alive?
  41. Profile photo of helix25
    helix25 Male 18-29
    165 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 6:23 am
    If the bible is the word of God then where does it state in the bible that being gay is ok? Because I can find the opposite for you, Mr. Bishop.
  42. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 6:32 am
    Helix:

    Remember in the 0th century when gays would give romans fashion advice and redecorate their house when they weren`t on family friendly sitcoms?

    That`s because the mentality about homosexuality (outside certain echelons of Greek society) was more geared to sodomy, power plays, rape, keeping people in check, and dominance.

    The classic example of "Bonobo Monkeys" demonstrating cases of homo-erotic practices often used by people to demonstrate homosexuality occurs in nature (and is therefore natural) whilst accurate, also displays this exact behaviour.

    Hell the wiki page even has this: "The limited research on Bonobos in the wild was taken to indicate that these behaviors may be exaggerated by captivity".

    In very crude (but easy to understand) terms, "prison gay", not "Queer eye gay". That`s the context for those biblical statements.
  43. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 6:34 am
    So you could easily argue that homosexuality in it`s current form (I.e. since the what? 20s?) is perfectly acceptable.
  44. Profile photo of helix25
    helix25 Male 18-29
    165 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 6:43 am
    @Baalthazaq: Gay couples have gay sex, which is sodomy. I won`t take for answer that gay couples don`t have sex...

    Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

    Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

    Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."


    We do not hate gay people. The bible clearly condemns homosexual acts.
  45. Profile photo of srximus
    srximus Male 30-39
    183 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 6:53 am
    There is no god.

    " He still believes in you and is giving you opportunity to find Him. Why do you think you are still alive?"

    I`m still alive because my existance is unrelated to any human beliefs and man made religions.
  46. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36672 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 7:13 am
    Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

    Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

    a little bit later in Leviticus it say eating shrimp is also an abomination before God. So how come That rule can be ignored at the buffet. Also mixing fibers {cotton/wool} is equally sinful. But the gay-rule is "written in stone" as it were?

    When you pick and choose which parts to follow and which parts to throw out, the you might as well toss it all out.

    You know what Jesus said about gays ....... nothing.
  47. Profile photo of nubblins
    nubblins Female 18-29
    1743 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 7:19 am
    I find it very vain of humans to think they know what something that created the entire Universe loves and doesn`t love. How do you know "He" (or she.. assuming it has gender) actually loves humans? How do we know it even has the ability to love?

    Stop pretending to "know" things you can not know, religious people.
  48. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 7:20 am
    Helix- the bible says lots of goofy things.

    Furthermore, the bible very clearly condemns Usury (lending at interest) check it out- Ex.22:25, Ez.18:13, Dt. 23:19, Lev. 25:35-37, Neh. 5:7-10, Jer. 15:10, Ez. 22:12, and Lk. 6:35. Why don`t I see xians going out there and obeying their book on *this* and doing the godly thing by stoning their bankers?
  49. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 7:35 am
    More helpful bible trivia.
  50. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 7:43 am
    helix25:

    Your god didn`t write the version of the Christian bible that you`re quoting. Some people wrote it to suit the wishes of the church at the time, same as every other existing version.

    You`re looking at, *at best*, an interpretation of a translation of a translation of centuries of oral tradition of an interpretation of a vision that some people have faith was divinely inspired.

    That`s *at best*, assuming everyone involved at every step completely succeeded in making a perfect and utterly unbiased copy of the vast number of words in the stories they heard perfectly, then wrote them down perfectly, then translated them perfectly (which is absolutely impossible), then did it again, never once thinking (because thinking would bring their own ideas into their version of the work).

    It`s a ridiculous idea, especially as we have abundant extant written evidence that the opposite occured.
  51. Profile photo of DixxyRarr
    DixxyRarr Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 7:52 am
    Baalthazaq:
    Good call on the Bonobos. I wrote a thesis on Bonobos and their social structure.... ruled by a council of females that often prevent and remedy disagreements with homosexual orgies. Interesting, beautiful and of course, highly endangered.
  52. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 7:59 am
    We do not hate gay people. The bible clearly condemns homosexual acts.

    Several people have already pointed out the hypocrisy, ignorance and blatant lack of internal consistency inherent in the mindless anti-homosexual stance many Christians take largely as a result of their ignorance of their own religion.

    It would be easy to post thousands of characters of examples proving that. It`s an overwhelmingly strong argument with massive amounts of evidence from the same sources the anti-gay Christians use, so they can`t dispute the sources.

    They can`t dispute the argument, so they just ignore it and continue the beliefs even they know are hypocritical.

    The bible condemns hypocrisy more clearly than it condemns homosexuality.

    Your copy of an interpretation of a translation of a translation of an interpretation of your bible might clearly condemn homosexuality, but it`s far from clear what was actually said millenia ago by Moses.
  53. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 8:01 am
    Baalthazaq:
    Good call on the Bonobos. I wrote a thesis on Bonobos and their social structure.... ruled by a council of females that often prevent and remedy disagreements with homosexual orgies. Interesting, beautiful and of course, highly endangered.

    I think you might want to read what Baalthazaq actually wrote about the bonobo, because it`s not what you`ve just described.
  54. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 8:15 am
    God understands (being omniscient) the outcome of action.
    This raises an interesting question, Baal, and one which I`m genuinely curious about - do Muslims believe in God-given free will in the same way that Christians do? Because it seems to me that free will is logically incompatible with omniscience.
  55. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5441 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 8:19 am
    Religion is a philosophy for life. I decided to become a Christian, as part of my life philosophy. That religion has rules, commandments, covenants, and exceptions. I believe the Holy Book through faith. Those of you without faith, cannot understand that.

    I am intelligent, wise, and educated, in science no less. My faith does not impede my judgment and rationality.

    If you do not like my faith, the rules of my religion, or the tenants of my beliefs -- how do you justify the rationality of trying to change my belief in the creator?

    Also, a word to my Muslim friends: I understand you believe Jesus to be nothing more than a prophet, but by engaging in making fun of Christians, you are also making fun (blasphemy) against God - Allah. Something to think about.
  56. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 8:29 am
    I`ll add another line of argument, although the lack of internal consistency in the anti-homosexual argument from some Christians is more than enough to make it reasonable to dismiss their position as self-contradicting meaningless babble. e.g.

    craftymiser: I work on saturdays and sundays. If you believe your own posts, you must believe I should be killed. Do you? Please make your position clear.

    Although the anti-homosexual Christian argument is already proven false, some people might find it interesting to look at another counter-argument to it, that the common interpretations and translations of the Christian bible are faulty.

    Detailed look at both sides

    You must look at the original language and original culture to have any hope of getting the original meaning.

    Try it with just the word "homosexual"
  57. Profile photo of BrimstoneOne
    BrimstoneOne Male 30-39
    2229 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 8:31 am
    I have wondered what a religious fanatic would say/do when they arrive at "seeing" god. And `it` looked like nothing like they imagined. Would they acknowledge what they`ve seen? Or would they "see" it at all?

    To those that `follow` the bible, I ask you are you really following that book, or are you `following` a person who has "interpreted" for you? And if it is the latter, how can you be so certain that the interpretation is a correct one?

    Religion is not a stone, but a vessel of water. It changes over time, to what challenges us as a people, thus it can not be static in response to change.
  58. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 8:35 am
    Gah, the not-really-1000 limit bit hard on that post.

    Try it even with just the word "homosexual". You`ll probably be surprised to find that the same meaning simply didn`t exist in the original languages and cultures. There is nothing there that can accurately be translated as "homosexual". The authors simply didn`t think in those terms and their languages did not contain a word for it.
  59. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5441 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 8:43 am
    BrimstoneOne - I am atypical when it comes to religion.

    I do not follow the beliefs of my family, nor do I follow the beliefs of a preacher/teacher. I studied and obtained a degree, part of which has a minor concentration on religion, and a minor concentration on history. Both of those minors focus on reformation and history of religion in general.

    I have studied in depth, many different religions - including Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Pagan religions, Zoroastrianism, and even the soccer fan base as a religion (yes that is entirely feasible).

    The point is, I sought and found my own faith. You are right about religion changing, but one fact remains - God has not changed throughout the history of religion - whether you study Hebrew, Christianity, or Islam.
  60. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 8:43 am
    If you do not like my faith, the rules of my religion, or the tenants of my beliefs -- how do you justify the rationality of trying to change my belief in the creator?

    Personally, I don`t care what superwizard you believe in.

    I do care when it affects other people, especially me.

    Religion would be all very well if it stayed out of society, but it does not. Christianity and Islam are particularly strongly geared towards gaining power on Earth, so they are particularly dangerous to everyone.

    Is it rational for me to try to use reason to change your wholly irrational beliefs? No.

    Is it rational for me to try to defend my own life and the lives of the countless others at risk from the vile tyranny of religion with power? Yes, and it needs to be done before religion gets enough power to have me killed for making any objection.
  61. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5441 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 8:50 am
    Angilion - at the same ends, your "side of the fence" as it were, is seeking the same end result. Death as opposed to life.

    Where you will find conflict, is trying to use rational thought, to change the rational thought of others.

    You say religion should not be social, should not hold power, or impose beliefs on society. But - at the same time atheism is seeking the same thing, and I will make the same argument.

    Atheism should not be public, hold power, or try to impose it`s beliefs on the faithful. (playing up on the "switch words" logic.)

    The truth has nothing to do with faith, and the truth is biased view points do not need to be in power.
  62. Profile photo of craftymiser
    craftymiser Male 30-39
    96 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 8:50 am
    Angillon, you misunderstand. When I say that God is giving you an opportunity to discovery him, I mean just that. Each day is a gift from God. When you think how close everyone of us comes to death just by walking out our front doors, it is a daily miracle that we make it home each night. Sure, I`m certain you would say that science can explain it through the process of breathing and your heart beating, and your cells are reproducing and your mind is working because the chemicals are producing properly, etc. But who do you think set all that in motion? Who created the planet we live on and the universe we view? Why do the laws of gravity and motion always stay the way they do and never vary? Where did we come from and where will we go when we die? Science doesn`t have all the answers. It gains more daily, but it doesn`t know everything. The rest takes a grain of faith to understand and trust in, seek out, and find, and relish in the finding of truth. Pure knowledge.
  63. Profile photo of DixxyRarr
    DixxyRarr Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 9:15 am
    Angilion: Whoops, my bad. I`m always too trusting. I thought he was on the good team.
    I just love Bonobos so much, I can only imagine people using their powers for good instead of evil...
  64. Profile photo of Pearl_kill
    Pearl_kill Male 18-29
    30 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 9:27 am
    Not going to touch the religino issue. thats just beating a dead horse, we all know the arguments and counter arguments from many sides. However I will say, that he seems like a good man trying to help people out. Thats pretty drating solid.
  65. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 10:46 am
    When I say that God is giving you an opportunity to discovery him, I mean just that. Each day is a gift from God. When you think how close everyone of us comes to death just by walking out our front doors, it is a daily miracle that we make it home each night.
    Look both ways before you cross the road. Seriously, this ain`t rocket science dude.
  66. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 11:08 am
    Dixxyrarr:
    "Angilion: Whoops, my bad. I`m always too trusting. I thought he was on the good team."

    Ouch. Not sure what team you`re talking about, but I don`t disagree with your original reply either.

    They have a less violent culture than ours, which is good. They *do* use sex as a method of bonding (like say in Ancient Greece), but they also use it as a method of asserting dominance, like in a modern day prison.

    Both are aspects of the tribe, and both can be found as demonstrations within human society as well. I`m suggesting the latter was more common in biblical times.

    Facts aren`t on a team.
  67. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 11:16 am
    Baalthazaq:
    "Facts aren`t on a team".

    Hi Baalthazaq, just pointing out that you don`t know nearly enough about bonobo monkeys to be that roostery. Stick to saying stuff like that when you`re the expert, and not when you watched 2 documentaries on the topic (one of which you only caught half way through).

    Regards,
    Not a witch.
  68. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 11:19 am
    Angilion: Whoops, my bad. I`m always too trusting. I thought he was on the good team.
    I just love Bonobos so much, I can only imagine people using their powers for good instead of evil...

    You love a fictional idealised image of bonobos. Which is fine as long as you don`t make the mistake you`ve made - thinking that the fantasy is reality.

    I frequently disagree with Baalthazaq, but I do so when I think he`s wrong, not when I think he`s on "the bad team" because he doesn`t share the same pretty fantasies as me.
  69. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 11:26 am
    You say religion should not be social, should not hold power, or impose beliefs on society. But - at the same time atheism is seeking the same thing, and I will make the same argument.

    Atheism should not be public, hold power, or try to impose it`s beliefs on the faithful. (playing up on the "switch words" logic.)

    If atheism included numerous orders to act againsts non-atheists, including many orders to kill them, you`d have a point.

    But it doesn`t and it can`t, because atheism doesn`t have a set of rules.

    You`re also wrong because atheism doesn`t hold power or impose beliefs on society. Atheism isn`t any organisation, so it can`t hold power, and it doesn`t have any beliefs to impose on society.

    I argue that switching words doesn`t apply in this context.
  70. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 11:30 am
    craftymiser:

    I don`t care if you think that whatever you make up and decide is true is "pure knowledge". I do care that you pretend it`s anything like science, but that`s a different argument.

    I am waiting for you to stand behind your stated belief and advocate my death. The orders you claim to follow require you to do so.

    You won`t, because you`re a hypocrite.

    I do not misunderstand you. I disagree with you. Which shouldn`t bother you, since you disagree with yourself.
  71. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5441 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 11:42 am
    Angilion - I was going to look on the web to show you several examples of how atheism can be organized and cult-like, then I realized what "forum" we are on. Instead of clicking any links I could/would post.. hit your "back" button and look at how violent the posts have been from atheists (as well as Christians mind you - not excluding them).

    It is this type of ideology that leads to action.
  72. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 12:10 pm
    Isolated action by some individuals, perhaps.

    Concerted action by organisations with fixed rules they believe carry superhuman authority, organisations capable of controlling a country...no.

    Maybe in the future, if an atheist organisation obtains enough power and creates an "approved atheism" with defined rules and orders to spread them...but what could atheism hang all that on? Lack of belief doesn`t serve as a foundation for control.

    The USSR isn`t a counter-example because it was a political tyranny that imposed atheism for political reasons, not an atheist tyranny imposing atheism for atheist reasons.
  73. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 12:23 pm
    Both are aspects of the tribe, and both can be found as demonstrations within human society as well. I`m suggesting the latter was more common in biblical times.

    More common...or more commonly written about?

    More common...or a common prejudiced stereotype?

    When looking at OT biblical times, we have very little evidence. When looking at NT biblical times, we have much more but when it comes to attitudes towards homosexual sex and relationships we`re mostly reliant on Christian copies of Roman writing and there isn`t much about homosexuality in them.

    We can say, for example, that what records we do have indicate that homosex between men in late republican and early imperial Rome was commonly thought to have connotations of dominance and submission...but even if it was does that necessarily mean it was any more accurate than more recent associations, e.g. mincing drama queens and limp-wristed nancy boys?
  74. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5441 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 12:37 pm
    "Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where`s the harm? September 11th changed all that. Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense. Dangerous because it gives people unshakable confidence in their own righteousness. Dangerous because it gives them false courage to kill themselves, which automatically removes normal barriers to killing others. Dangerous because it teaches enmity to others labeled only by a difference of inherited tradition. And dangerous because we have all bought into a weird respect, which uniquely protects religion from normal criticism. Let`s now stop being so damned respectful!"

    I know this is a long quote, but it shows "militant atheism." This thought path is just as destructive, as it will lead people to violence just as "having faith" lead people to violence. It is just as risq
  75. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5441 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 12:41 pm
    risque*
  76. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5441 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 12:44 pm
    You see, that is not lack of belief.. lack of belief would be studying science, and never putting God into an equation to start with. Atheism is just that, anti-Christian themes, however, is actively attacking religion - and is not atheism.
  77. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 12:54 pm
    Angilion:

    More commonly stereotyped I suppose. I`m speaking solely of the impressions here, not of what actually occurred at the time.

    This would lead biblical authors to view it and talk about it a specific way. If gay sex was seen almost always as gay rape, it is unsurprising that they`d talk of it as "abomination".

    It`s a problem of stereotyping, which is a problem in and of itself, but the spirit of the text changes with the context.
  78. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 12:59 pm
    Elkingo:
    I`m trying to train myself to do this, because I think it`s fairer, but try using the word anti-theist rather than atheist.

    Atheism is disbelief in God. Nothing more, nothing less. Don`t let them add any more adjectives on to that about scientific/rational/moral etc. Similarly don`t add adjectives yourself about them being pushy/immoral/etc.

    By definition, it`s simple.

    Anti-theists on the other hand, are another matter, and that`s what you`re discussing. Some antitheists admit to being one (Hitchens), but many do not and call themselves atheists (which they are, but that`s not all they are).

    Argue against antitheism, like you are doing, not Atheism.

    I still don`t do that properly. Still trying though.
  79. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 1:01 pm
    I know this is a long quote, but it shows "militant atheism." This thought path is just as destructive, as it will lead people to violence just as "having faith" lead people to violence. It is just as risque

    `risque` means `sexual or sexually suggestive in a way a little outside social norms, rude but titillating rather than offensive`, so that`s probably not what you meant.

    Advocating a lack of undeserved automatic respect is a far cry from holy war.

    You might not like the argument you quoted, but can you disagree with it?
  80. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5441 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 1:07 pm
    Baal - I have disagreed with you in the past, but I agree with you 100% about the anti-theist stance.

  81. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5441 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 1:09 pm
    Angillion - yes, I can disagree with it. Because that stance of chauvinism and hatred solves nothing.

    Also, risque does not always imply something sexual - it can imply something improper as well.
  82. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 1:12 pm
    More commonly stereotyped I suppose. I`m speaking solely of the impressions here, not of what actually occurred at the time.
    This would lead biblical authors to view it and talk about it a specific way. If gay sex was seen almost always as gay rape, it is unsurprising that they`d talk of it as "abomination".

    It`s a problem of stereotyping, which is a problem in and of itself, but the spirit of the text changes with the context.

    I agree. I would have been clearer about it, but the very short post limits on IAB inhibit clarity.

    "abomination" is a mistranslation, by the way. Which I think you might know, as you put speech marks around it.

    There`s also another aspect of the context - pre-existing religions. Homosexual sex was common in some of them, so that would affect early Jewish preachers who were trying to take over. "We`re not like them" is always a useful tool. Some argue that what`s actually b
  83. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 1:18 pm
    Angillion - yes, I can disagree with it. Because that stance of chauvinism and hatred solves nothing.

    It`s neither chauvinism nor hatred.

    You are not entitled to automatic extreme respect because you`re a theist. Obviously the nobility will be aghast at the peasants not tugging their forelocks and bowing, but hard luck on them. I don`t care if they think they deserve such respect for being in the "right" group or if they think it`s hatred to not show that respect.

    None of the statements in that quote about religion are untrue.

    No hatred, no chauvinism, just an unwillingless to be servile for no reason and an acknowledgment of risk.
  84. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 1:19 pm
    Bah...the "we pretend to allow 1000 characters but we don`t really" policy caught me out again.

    A couple of posts back, the last line was:

    Some argue that what`s actually banned is participation in the rituals of other religions.
  85. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 1:33 pm
    Atheism is disbelief in God. Nothing more, nothing less.

    No, it`s lack of belief in any god(s). That`s not the same thing.

    According to your definition, anyone who follows religions with a different god or gods to your own is an atheist and anyone who doesn`t believe in any gods but doesn`t believe in the non-existence of them either is not an atheist.

    The distinction you make is a real one, but atheism varies far too much to make it a single thing. It isn`t as clear-cut as "nothing more, nothing less" even if you use the right definition.

    Do I consider it possible that some god or gods exist? Yes.

    Am I am atheist? Yes. I consider it possible, but I don`t believe it. I consider it possible that Star Wars is a historical account, but I don`t believe that either.

    Are there other atheists who would very strongly disagree with my position? Yes.
  86. Profile photo of paddy215
    paddy215 Male 18-29
    1677 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 1:59 pm
    Wow, the people commenting below me are definitly on the right website, you lot must be REALLY bored if you have the time to write so many long ass comments that most people who come here won`t even be arsed to read. :-)
  87. Profile photo of craftymiser
    craftymiser Male 30-39
    96 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 2:15 pm
    Angillon, alas you think I advocate OT punishment. But when the old law was fulfilled through Christ, all sacrifices, such as punishments for breaking the Sabbath day, were done away with. The greatest law, Love the Lord thy God, and the second law, Love they Neighbor as thyself, were put into place. Both of these are higher laws, and trust much more in the ability of the individual to do right. I thought you were more studied than this. So no, your death is not required. Which is why you misunderstood, or misapplied what you thought was right. My point was, every day of your life is a gift from God. You ought to be more grateful to Him, rather than arguing against His existence. Your arguments against an existence of God does not make Him any less real. He still loves you and believes in you doing something worthwhile with your life.
  88. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 3:19 pm
    craftymiser, I suggest you read your own post from Sunday, October 17, 2010 5:11:44 AM.

    Then I suggest you read Matthew 5:17-18.

    You`re free to dip into Christianity as a pick `n` mix affair and pull out just the bits you like.

    And I`m free to point out what you write actually means. Under you god`s laws I would be killed several times over.

    You`re free to argue that your god must exist because you say he does and that I ought to be more grateful to your favourite character from your favourite book because you say I should be.

    And I`m free to argue that you`re making much less sense than most people do on LSD.
  89. Profile photo of panth753
    panth753 Female 18-29
    9237 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 4:28 pm
    Gay Christians ftw!
  90. Profile photo of cndman15
    cndman15 Male 18-29
    328 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 7:39 pm
    He is a very nice man.
  91. Profile photo of GuardinGnome
    GuardinGnome Male 18-29
    2893 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 8:32 pm
    As long as you`re not killing or maiming me you can do whatever the f*ck you want.
  92. Profile photo of craftymiser
    craftymiser Male 30-39
    96 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 8:50 pm
    Angillon, those are good verses, but you still fail to understand. He did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill what they had already received and to build it up. The law of Moses was adapted to those of a lower spiritual capacity. They were coming away from pure idol worship in Egypt to the law Moses as given on Mount Sinai. However, the Jewish leaders had added many unauthorized provisions, ceremonies, and prohibitions to the original law, until it became extremely burdensome. It is this form of the law that is so harshly spoken against by Jesus and by Paul (Matt 15:1-9, Mark 7:1-13, Gal 2:16-21). And so shows the historical facts, not my `favorite character` only. Arguing with you is like arguing with a stump. The roots are deeply entangled, but there is no growth in what you say. One day, your stump will be covered over by others who may argue as well, but no actual growth, as your cutting yourself off from truth and remaining entrenched in nothing that will grow.
  93. Profile photo of inaria
    inaria Female 18-29
    1515 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 8:51 pm
    @craftymiser ...Ugh *bangs head on desk*

  94. Profile photo of craftymiser
    craftymiser Male 30-39
    96 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 9:30 pm
    @Inaria, yeah I know, my gif says it all.
  95. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 9:31 pm
    @craftymiser ...Ugh *bangs head on desk*

    An understandable reaction, but it`s not worth banging your brain over.

    It`s truly weird to see people so eagerly arguing that the only truth and growth is to stop thinking and follow an unchanging bronze age mythology, i.e. no truth and no growth...and actually meaning it. They seriously don`t see how much they`re contradicting themselves.

    I could argue some more scripture at craftymiser, but its only value is the amusement it gives me and at the moment I`d rather play solitaire. We`re genuinely alien to each other and communication is limited by that. Which is a hopeful thing in a way, as it implies that humans could get along with people from other worlds, if they exist and if we ever meet them.
  96. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 9:36 pm
    And so shows the historical facts

    No they don`t. Your ideas are just those that you`ve selected from one book that is not a historical account. They`re not facts and they`re not history. They`re not even all that`s written in the book. You`ve just picked out the bits you like. You`ve even edited the main character (your god) to fit your tastes.
  97. Profile photo of craftymiser
    craftymiser Male 30-39
    96 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 9:41 pm
    Apparently Angilion is unfamiliar with continuing revelation. Which accounts for current and future growth. So their really is no contradiction or mindless following. Not all religious people stick with the Bible alone. And there is yet more revelations to come for today and the future. He`s not left us alone with only 2,000+ year old words to grasp at for meaning. If you want to know, study it out for yourself, seek out truths from all parts of the world and ask Him yourself. Seems like the obvious solution. Or is solitaire keeping you too busy?
  98. Profile photo of craftymiser
    craftymiser Male 30-39
    96 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 9:44 pm
    Historical facts? Anybody ever read Josephus? A historical author who writes of his day, in the years of Jerusalem before and after Jesus lived there. Josephus, among others, accounts for all the Jewish traditions I`ve noted.
  99. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 10:21 pm
    @crafty - I`d be interested to know, as you haven`t stated explicitly... What`s YOUR personal position on homosexuality?
  100. Profile photo of craftymiser
    craftymiser Male 30-39
    96 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 10:33 pm
    davymid, I believe that each of us is given weaknesses in this life. Each of us has a burden to conquer and make a strength. Homosexuality is one of those burdens that some people have a temptation for. I believe it can be overcome, in time, when not pursued and given in to. I have friends that are going through this type of growth or have gone through this and are doing well. They work to remain faithful to the teachings of Christ and lead good lives, without giving into the temptation of homosexuality. And I support them in their efforts. I also know that there is no temptation (what ever it may be) given to man, except there is a way to overcome it. I believe they are blessed in this life for doing so. I believe that after death they will be rewarded, as will all other faithful.
  101. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 11:34 pm
    Ah yes. An unsurprising, if disappointing answer. Homosexuality is a sin, gotcha.

    Maybe you can help me out with this then. You say you`re an advocate that Jesus rescinded our need to obey Old Testament/Jewish/Mosaic Law, and you believe in "continuing revelation". Many Christians do. Why then, do you continue to think the act of homosexuality is still a sin, wheras, for example, eating shellfish is not a sin anymore? Wearing clothes made from two different fabrics is not a sin anymore? I mean, they`re all there side by side in Leviticus. Jesus himself didn`t say boo about homosexuality. Not a word. Nada.

    Why do you pick up on homosexuality as still being a sin, and not the others I mentioned? Why do people with homosexual lusts need to be healed, cured, helped to overcome their homosexual desires? Why not people who crave lobster, or want to buy that funky cotton and polyester shirt they saw at the mall?

    I`d love to hear your reasoning.
  102. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 11:44 pm
    Historical facts? Anybody ever read Josephus? A historical author who writes of his day, in the years of Jerusalem before and after Jesus lived there.

    He was born after Jesus died.

    He makes only two references to Jesus, both of which are disputed on the basis of having been edited by Christians later on.

    He wasn`t a Christian and his histories do not in any way say what you claim they say.
  103. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 11:50 pm
    Apparently Angilion is unfamiliar with continuing revelation. Which accounts for current and future growth. So their really is no contradiction or mindless following.

    Yes there is, in abundance. Where is this "continuing revelation" you refer to? What major messengers from your god have been recognised by Christians as having genuine revelations sent by your god?

    If you want to know, study it out for yourself

    Done that.

    seek out truths from all parts of the world

    Done that.

    ask Him yourself.

    Got his phone number? Email address? Sure, I could pray, answer my own questions and convince myself that my answers were divine revelation, but I think I`ll pass.

    Seems like the obvious solution.

    Seems like the obvious problem.

    Or is solitaire keeping you too busy?

    Busier than talking to myself wou
  104. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2010 at 11:59 pm
    They work to remain faithful to the teachings of Christ

    Here are the teachings of Christ regarding homosexuality:

























    Here endeth the entire unabridged teachings of Christ regarding homosexuality.

    Yep. According to your own holy texts, he said absolutely nothing about homosexuality. Guess he didn`t consider it to be an issue at all.
  105. Profile photo of flingspoo
    flingspoo Female 18-29
    999 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 12:22 am
    Does this count for alcoholics and anorexics?
  106. Profile photo of defendors87
    defendors87 Male 18-29
    570 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 1:41 am
    Romans 1:27-32
    Jude 1:7-8
    1 Corinthians 6:9
    fight the sin not the sinner.
  107. Profile photo of CoolerThanMe
    CoolerThanMe Male 18-29
    98 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 3:12 am
    @defendors87 Couldn`t have said it better.
    @Angilion Good luck. You will need it.
  108. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 5:07 am
    Wow! Protestant all the way baby. I can`t imagine there aren`t millions of gay people all around the world who don`t wish (any less than their heterosexual counterparts) to embrace the type of warmth, comfort, inspiration and love that positive religious observation can bring - and this might just be exactly what they need. Great for them, great for Him, and great for Mr. Rogers too.
  109. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 7:40 am
    Defendors- did you happen to catch all my citations of the bible condemning Usury? Check it out, because I`d still like to see a xian stone a banker already.

    I also love how xians can condemn the instinct to love someone else (via fractured analogy fallacy)by putting it on the same level as robbery, rape or murder. I mean that is the whole point of that whole "Love the sinner" canard isn`t it? Comparing apples and oranges.
  110. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 11:12 am
    @Angilion Good luck. You will need it.

    I know. Being able to read, think and learn for myself is a great burden. Ignorance, contradicting myself and believing what I`m told even when it`s obviously wrong would be much easier.

    Maybe one day you will find the strength to take on that burden yourself. Or maybe not. Your choice.

    If you are so ignorant of your own religion that you think I`m wrong, feel free to attempt to prove it. It`s money where your mouth is time and you`re up. I`m even restricting myself to your own holy book, despite the facts that I don`t believe any of it, it frequently contradicts itself and it`s full of evil. I`m giving you every advantage here and you still have nothing.
  111. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 11:26 am
    Romans 1:27-32

    i) Not from Jesus, so you`re wrong.
    ii) Try reading the preceeding verses - it`s about people who aren`t Christians. And the worst thing of all is that they disobeyed their parents!

    Jude 1:7-8

    i) Not from Jesus, so you`re wrong.

    ii) Try reading the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Firstly, it shows your god as a petulant mass murderer. Secondly, rape is not the same as consensual sex.

    1 Corinthians 6:9

    i) Not from Jesus, so you`re wrong.
    ii) You`re really scraping the barrel with this one. The English translations contain a word concept that *did not exist* in the time and place of the original. Doesn`t that ring even the tiniest bell in your mind to indicate that the translation is wrong? Or didn`t you even know that?

    Also, what standard of manly behaviour do you think is the right one? I doubt if you fit the bill for a Greek man of ~1900 years ag
  112. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 11:32 am
    cut off again...

    so you`re off to hell too, right?

    or maybe not, because *nobody knows what Paul meant*. Seriously. He uses words that are not used elsewhere and have no known meaning.

    No, I am not joking. The translations are a lie.

    The key word in this case is arsenokoitai (transliterated Greek). Nothing is known about its meaning. It appears that Paul made it up.

    However, `arsen` is male-specific. So lesbians are probably off the hook. I say "probably" because, and I stress this again, *nobody knows what the word means*.

    I wish more Christians would spend even a couple of minutes learning even a trivial amount about what their bible means, I really do.
  113. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 11:38 am
    Come to think of it, a very plausible translation of `arsenokoitai` is `women who behave like men`. Consider the context - the previous entry in the list is men who behave like women, so it makes sense that the unknown word next in the list would be women who behave like men.

    Which leads to the question of which rigidly sexed roles Paul (REMEMBER - PAUL WAS NOT JESUS) wanted everyone to conform to. One thing`s for sure - they`re not 1950s USA sexed roles or Victorian sexed roles or anything else that Paul couldn`t have known about >1900 years ago.
  114. Profile photo of craftymiser
    craftymiser Male 30-39
    96 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 12:15 pm
    davymid and Angilion - I can see that what we are dealing with here is an Old Testament type people. If they don`t have the exact, line by line rules, then they don`t know how to act appropriately for themselves. Continuing revelation for the world comes through Prophets and Apostles that live today and lead and guide His church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There are reams of revelations given by these men over the past 170+ years, clarifying everything you are asking about. An honest review of these revelations from God, and by sincerely asking God in prayer with real intent to know whether they are true will tell you exactly what you need to know. I know for myself that they are true Prophets and Apostles and revelations. I hope you sincerely find out for yourself. I really do. It will change your lives for the better.
  115. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 3:35 pm
    Angilion, I got to hand it you, when you`re on your game you`re on your game. Some excellent points here, seriously. *Thumbs Up*
  116. Profile photo of defendors87
    defendors87 Male 18-29
    570 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 5:07 pm
    angilion, why do you even use the bible to make your points if you don`t believe it`s the word of God? Even more, you think it`s full of evil. why in the world would you quote such a book to prove your own point? That makes no sense to me... anyways, I never said the scriptures I posted were directly from Jesus. But I believe that whether something is from Jesus himself or from his servants while they are speaking in the authority of their priesthood it is the same.
  117. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 5:57 pm
    angilion, why do you even use the bible to make your points if you don`t believe it`s the word of God?

    What a strange question. I am arguing two things:

    i) What the Christian position on homosexuality should be.

    ii) What is morally right.

    I`m arguing against people who think that their bible (or, more accurately, what they`ve been told is their bible, which is actually interpretations of translations of interpretations of only small parts of it) is the only source of morality.

    Obviously, I have to use their bible to argue on their terms because they don`t give a damn about any others or who is harmed.

    I can, and have, proved them wrong *using their own bible* and they still don`t care, but it`s marginally less pointless than using reason and morality based on the course of least harm.
  118. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 6:07 pm
    anyways, I never said the scriptures I posted were directly from Jesus.

    Which makes them useless in the context of examining the teachings of Jesus. Which was the point at the time.

    As Davymid and others have also pointed out, the usual Christian position is internally inconsistent.

    If you think that the teachings of Jesus replacing Mosaic law, then there`s nothing against homosexuality. He didn`t mention it at all. Presumably he didn`t consider it important.

    If you think that the teachings of Jesus do not replace Mosaic law, then you must object to all the other things that Mosaic law also describes as to`ebah. Non-kosher food. Working on the sabbath. Wearing clothing of more than one type of cloth. Growing more than one type of plant in a field. Mixing meat and dairy products. Yes, cheeseburgers are as much an "abomination" as homosexual sex. According to your bible.
  119. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 6:10 pm
    And all that is assuming that the usual interpretations and mistranslations are right, even though they sometimes very obviously aren`t.

    To be blunt, you`re wrong. You are wrong regardless of how you look at it. You`re reading the wrong words with the wrong interpretations and utterly contradicting yourself, which means you must be wrong about the way you treat the wrong interpretations of the wrong words.

    As Rimmer said: "Wrong, wrong. Absolutely brimming over with wrongability."
  120. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 6:18 pm
    Angilion, I got to hand it you, when you`re on your game you`re on your game. Some excellent points here, seriously. *Thumbs Up*

    Likewise. You picked up the usury stuff. I`d completely forgotten about that. It`s strong point because it requires anti-homosexual Christians to campaign against the economy of almost the entire world or be hypocrites.

    The problem is that they don`t mind being hypocrites.
  121. Profile photo of defendors87
    defendors87 Male 18-29
    570 posts
    October 18, 2010 at 11:15 pm
    Again, you say that the very fact that we use such a mistranslated and twisted bible makes us wrong no matter what (let`s not even get into the council of nicea nd countless other changes that have been made to the bible) but you use this mistranslated and twisted bible to prove your own points. Do you believe the bible to be the word of God or not? You treat Jesus` teachings from the bible as if they are scripture but then you go and say the bible is an evil book. you are not arguing on "their" terms at all. all you are doing is stating random seemingly profound facts that you know about the bible and then saying that everyone who is arguing in favor of heterosexual marriage is wrong.
  122. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 19, 2010 at 12:01 am
    Who are you refering to? On first glance it appears to be me, but there`s no connection between my posts and your reply.

    then saying that everyone who is arguing in favor of heterosexual marriage is wrong.

    What figment of your imagination is saying that?

    Also, how would you argue about the content of the Christian bible without making any reference to any content of the Christian bible? Are you suggesting I should tell anti-homosexual Christians to ignore their bible? That would be ridiculous. The only possible way to convince any theist they are wrong about anything to do with their religion is to convince them they are *theologically* wrong, wrong within the framework of their religion. Otherwise, I may as well say "Stop being a theist". Or flap my arms and try to fly, which would be about as likely to succeed.
  123. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 19, 2010 at 12:04 am
    but you use this mistranslated and twisted bible to prove your own points.

    Wrong. I`m using it to disprove points made by people who are using it, because it`s the only thing they might pay any attention to.
  124. Profile photo of kirstoner
    kirstoner Female 18-29
    535 posts
    October 19, 2010 at 6:20 am
    I don`t care what anyone says, more videos like this should be made.
  125. Profile photo of SmilinSam
    SmilinSam Female 18-29
    3599 posts
    October 19, 2010 at 6:43 pm
    Angillion, keep it up man, you make more sense than anyone here... you should take your show on the road so more people can hear it.
  126. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    October 19, 2010 at 11:17 pm
    Continuing revelation for the world comes through Prophets and Apostles that live today and lead and guide His church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There are reams of revelations given by these men over the past 170+ years, clarifying everything you are asking about.
    Aw sh*t, it was a Mormon. I though we were just dealing with a regular (as if they`re not crazy enough). I guess we be trolled. Moving on...
  127. Profile photo of defendors87
    defendors87 Male 18-29
    570 posts
    October 19, 2010 at 11:57 pm
    hey davymid maybe if you pulled your head out of there you wouldn`t be so blind. don`t be a douche.
  128. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    October 20, 2010 at 10:15 am
    defendors87, for once it IS out (thought not in the same way as this gay preacher) and I was thinking the exact same thing.

    Give Davy a break - he`s a scientist.

    P.S. - does the `mid` stand for "Midair?"
  129. Profile photo of CoolerThanMe
    CoolerThanMe Male 18-29
    98 posts
    October 20, 2010 at 3:18 pm
    1 Corinthians 6:9
    i) Not from Jesus, so you`re wrong.
    ii) You`re really scraping the barrel with this one. The English translations contain a word concept that *did not exist* in the time and place of the original. Doesn`t that ring even the tiniest bell in your mind to indicate that the translation is wrong? Or didn`t you even know that?
    I would definitely like to know what single word that you are referring to that makes the translation wrong, and also WHY it make the translation wrong. Otherwise, weak.

    Also, what standard of manly behaviour do you think is the right one? I doubt if you fit the bill for a Greek man of ~1900 years ag

    If you not only read, but understood the Bible, you would know that there is no earthly standard that is good enough. Luckily, God gave his only begotten son. He is an advocate for humans. Without him we would never again be able to reside with God.
  130. Profile photo of CoolerThanMe
    CoolerThanMe Male 18-29
    98 posts
    October 20, 2010 at 3:18 pm
    Romans 1:27-32


    i) Not from Jesus, so you`re wrong.
    ii) Try reading the preceeding verses - it`s about people who aren`t Christians. And the worst thing of all is that they disobeyed their parents!

    Well apparently you didn`t read all the way back to verse 21. Romans 1:21 For although they God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
    Obviously Paul was referring to Christians. Try again.

    Jude 1:7-8


    i) Not from Jesus, so you`re wrong.

    ii) Try reading the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Firstly, it shows your god as a petulant mass murderer. Secondly, rape is not the same as consensual sex.

    I don`t think I have enough room to type chapter 19 in Genesis, but I suggest you give it a go. Lot tried to warn them, but they wouldn`t listen. And again, they knew of God and choose to turn their backs.
  131. Profile photo of CoolerThanMe
    CoolerThanMe Male 18-29
    98 posts
    October 20, 2010 at 3:19 pm
    BTW this is @Angilion
  132. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 20, 2010 at 7:19 pm
    The OT is not the teachings of Jesus, rather obviously. So why are you citing it as an example of the teachings of Jesus?

    You`re not the first person in this thread to refer me to Sodom and Gomorrah. You`re just as wrong as the other ones. Have you actually read it? Your god as a psycho mass murderer (again) and you cite it as a good thing.

    Also, not even mainstream Christian denominations nowadays think that the mass murderer they worship wiped out S&G because of homosexuality *because it says otherwise in the Christian bible* (and also in ancient Jewish writings).

    Try Isaiah 1, Jeremiah 23:14, Ezekeiel 16:49-50. Or try an accurate translation of Jude 7 and compare it to the usual translations. Try learning what

    Or read this

    I wish more Christians would learn more of their own bible and their own
  133. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 20, 2010 at 7:27 pm
    Let`s talk about Lot, the family held up as the only righteous people in Sodom.

    Lot offered to let a violent mob rape his daughters to let off steam.

    Lot`s daughters raped him to get pregnant.

    Neither of those things are bad, according to your bible.

    For those who don`t want to spend the time looking for themselves - the reasons that ancient Jewish writings and the Christian bible give for their god slaughtering everyone in S&G were;

    Not worshipping him
    Arrogance
    Pride
    Greed
    Lack of charity
    Inhospitability to strangers, sometimes to the point of mob violence (it was such a mob that Lot tried to defuse by giving them his daughters for raping).

    Centuries later an unknown author added an extra reason - "other flesh". Given the context of Lot`s guests and the time when the extra reason was added, it appears to refer to sex with non-humans (angels in the case of Lot`s guests).
  134. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 20, 2010 at 7:29 pm
    If you not only read, but understood the Bible, you would know that there is no earthly standard that is good enough.

    You have just argued that every man is going to hell for not being manly enough.

    Did you really mean to do that?
  135. Profile photo of CoolerThanMe
    CoolerThanMe Male 18-29
    98 posts
    October 21, 2010 at 3:09 am
    Did you even try and read the next sentence, or the one after that?

    If you not only read, but understood the Bible, you would know that there is no earthly standard that is good enough. Luckily, God gave his only begotten son. He is an advocate for humans. Without him we would never again be able to reside with God.

    You still haven`t told me what the one word is in I Corinthians 6:9, and where your translation came from, or why it makes the whole thing bunk. And as for S&G, I was never referring to it as a teaching of Jesus, I was elaborating on your point. I would also like to know where you get your accurate translation of Jude. Because my Jude 7 says: just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
    What does yours say?
  136. Profile photo of CoolerThanMe
    CoolerThanMe Male 18-29
    98 posts
    October 21, 2010 at 3:20 am
    @Angilion I`m sorry for whatever happened to you that made you so malice toward people of faith. I know there are Christians out there that hold up being gay as a super sin, but that`s just not the case. Unlike you, I do believe the new testament teaches that Jesus said, through Paul, that homosexuality is a sin. But that doesn`t make being gay something worse than any other sin. Society has told us today that being gay is ok, and that everyone else needs to accept that because it`s natural. Well then why don`t we say the same thing for bank robbers, serial killers, rapists and all the other personalities we as a society look down upon? Maybe they were born that way. And if they were, why would we spend time trying to "make them better"? We are only selectively compassionate.
  137. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 21, 2010 at 4:52 pm
    I don`t have malice towards people of faith.

    I have plenty of malice towards bigoted arseholes who do a great deal of harm.

    I also have a fair bit of malice towards patronising gits who think they`re better because they believe in a particular wizard without any reason to do so.

    But I have met a handful of theists who are neither. They`re harmlessly weird.
  138. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 21, 2010 at 4:54 pm
    Unlike you, I do believe the new testament teaches that Jesus said, through Paul, that homosexuality is a sin.

    Unlike me, you haven`t looked into it with thought rather than faith.

    Can you explain why you think Paul was speaking for Jesus?

    Can you explain why you think Paul was using a concept that didn`t exist until about 1800 years later?
  139. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 21, 2010 at 5:00 pm
    Society has told us today that being gay is ok, and that everyone else needs to accept that because it`s natural. Well then why don`t we say the same thing for bank robbers, serial killers, rapists and all the other personalities we as a society look down upon?

    You only make a fool of yourself when you try to pretend you`re being rational. You`re running on faith, not thought.

    We look down on bank robbers, serial killers, rapists, etc, *because they do harm*.

    Are you really rendered so stupid by your faith that you can`t understand the difference?

    That reference to bigots who do harm in my last post? You`ve just proved that it applies to you.
  140. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 21, 2010 at 5:01 pm
    But that doesn`t make being gay something worse than any other sin.

    So where are all the Christians who are equally opposed to all the other sins? Including you. Do you object to cheeseburgers as much as you object to homosexuality? Do you object to lending at interest as much as you object to homosexuality? Do you advocate beating children to death for disobedience? Shall I go on an on and on listing all the other things that demonstrate how utterly hypocritical anti-homosexual Christianity almost always is? You`ve ignored them all so far, so is it worth repeating them again?
  141. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 21, 2010 at 5:06 pm
    Did you even try and read the next sentence, or the one after that?

    No. I have a strict quota of reading per day. I model my life on IAB and that`s my version of the post length limit.

    I`ll repeat myself again. Why not? I have a few spare minutes.

    Another poster quoted a verse which said that men who were not manly enough would not go to heaven.

    I asked what standard of manliness they thought applied and stated that it couldn`t possibly be the sexist stereotyping common in some countries a couple of millenia later (obviously).

    You replied that no standard was high enough.

    Therefore you were arguing that every man was going to hell for not being manly enough.
  142. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 21, 2010 at 5:14 pm
    You still haven`t told me what the one word is in I Corinthians 6:9,

    Yes I have. In detail, over several posts.

    Monday, October 18, 2010 11:26:22 AM
    Monday, October 18, 2010 11:32:21 AM
    Monday, October 18, 2010 11:38:49 AM

    You really should know better than to make incorrect statements about posts that can`t be edited and which still exist, because then you can so easily be proven wrong.

    Some of the links I have posted also refer to this issue.

    and where your translation came from

    Thought. The thing you`ve replaced with faith. Note that I was suggesting it as plausible, not stating it was definitely the translation.

    or why it makes the whole thing bunk.

    A word with an unknown meaning is translated as "homosexual" with a meaning THAT DID NOT EXIST WHEN PAUL WROTE THE WORD, solely because of the prejudices of the people the bible was translated for an
  143. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 21, 2010 at 5:14 pm
    ...and you don`t see why it makes that sentence bunk? Really?
  144. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 21, 2010 at 5:28 pm
    Because my Jude 7 says: just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
    What does yours say?

    IAB won`t allow me to post Greek.

    Jude was written in Greek in the late 1st century. Neither the language nor the cultural context is modern. If you want to understand it, you must get an accurate translation that is in context. Yours isn`t.

    As I have already explained in detail, with reasoning, Jude was referring to the people of S&G raping and either raping angels or having consensual sex with them. Either way could result in nephilim, which was forbidden. The "other flesh" (sarkos heteras, transliterated Greek) in accurate translations is angels, i.e. not human.
  145. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 21, 2010 at 5:31 pm
    Also, why are you using ONLY Jude and not older sources such as the Talmud?

    There are many older references to S&G and none of them mention anything sexual. I`ve already given several references. The author of Jude added stuff because it fitted with what they wanted their bible to say.
  146. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 21, 2010 at 5:40 pm
    I realise that you`re not interested in answers to your questions (they`ve already been answered - you didn`t read the answers then and I`m sure you won`t read them now), but if you think I`ll just shut up and let you pretend that you`re asking questions I can`t answer, you`re wrong. I can do this for as long as it takes for you to give up.

    Here`s some more answers, from an unimpeachable source.

    Part of the analysis of S&G at Religious Tolerance

    That entire website (it`s huge) exists specifically to give varying religious viewpoints on things without having a religious viewpoint of its own.
  147. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5441 posts
    October 21, 2010 at 9:47 pm
    I stopped arguing at this:

    "You are not entitled to automatic extreme respect because you`re a theist. Obviously the nobility will be aghast at the peasants not tugging their forelocks and bowing, but hard luck on them. I don`t care if they think they deserve such respect for being in the "right" group or if they think it`s hatred to not show that respect."

    Your argument is illogical and moot when you argue that no one with faith should be respected.
    Many men of faith have done great things, and those great things brought about the civilization that you live in. Yet, you refuse to respect people for holding on to the tenants of foundation.

    You might be knowledgeable, and you might be able to argue philosophically, but you are an amoral person if you only seek to disrespect someone.

  148. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 22, 2010 at 5:04 pm
    Your argument is illogical and moot when you argue that no one with faith should be respected.

    Which I have not done. You even quoted me making a completely different argument just before you typed that completely incorrect statement.

    Have you considered replying to something I`ve actually written as opposed to making up something and claiming I`ve written it, solely for the purpose of making me look bad? Is slander really all you have?

    I openly invite any theist to come up with a counter-argument for anything I`ve actually written.

    Anything at all.

    Do any of you have any real argument at all?

    Or is slander all you have?
  149. Profile photo of CoolerThanMe
    CoolerThanMe Male 18-29
    98 posts
    October 25, 2010 at 5:30 am
    Unlike me, you haven`t looked into it with thought rather than faith.

    Can you explain why you think Paul was speaking for Jesus?

    Can you explain why you think Paul was using a concept that didn`t exist until about 1800 years later?

    Paul called it dishonorable passions, we call it homosexuality. Either way he was talking about women with women and men with men.

    So, because I believe what the Bible says I automatically can`t come from a standpoint of thought and faith? I happen to believe that people of faith HAVE to read the Bible thoughtfully and with faith. It`s when you do one or the other that problems start to occur. Maybe that`s why you call me a bigoted a-hole, or patronizing git. Maybe you should go over the Bible again, but this time with thought and faith.
  150. Profile photo of CoolerThanMe
    CoolerThanMe Male 18-29
    98 posts
    October 25, 2010 at 5:31 am
    Sorry by the way, I have no idea how you make my text look different than yours when you respond.
  151. Profile photo of CoolerThanMe
    CoolerThanMe Male 18-29
    98 posts
    October 25, 2010 at 5:41 am
    I asked what standard of manliness they thought applied and stated that it couldn`t possibly be the sexist stereotyping common in some countries a couple of millenia later (obviously).

    You replied that no standard was high enough.

    Therefore you were arguing that every man was going to hell for not being manly enough.



    This is the closest you have gotten so far to accurately quoting me. Thank you. And your right, no earthly standard is good enough to get to Heaven. That is why Jesus came here and died for our sins. He died so that we could live.

  152. Profile photo of CoolerThanMe
    CoolerThanMe Male 18-29
    98 posts
    October 25, 2010 at 5:47 am
    Jude was written in Greek in the late 1st century. Neither the language nor the cultural context is modern. If you want to understand it, you must get an accurate translation that is in context. Yours isn`t.


    All I`m asking is where I can get and accurate translation of Jude. I quoted from an English Standard Version. I have a New American Standard Bible and a New King James version, if they are wrong too I would like to know. I would also like to know why these translations are wrong.
  153. Profile photo of CoolerThanMe
    CoolerThanMe Male 18-29
    98 posts
    October 25, 2010 at 5:58 am
    You only make a fool of yourself when you try to pretend you`re being rational. You`re running on faith, not thought.

    We look down on bank robbers, serial killers, rapists, etc, *because they do harm*.

    Are you really rendered so stupid by your faith that you can`t understand the difference?

    That reference to bigots who do harm in my last post? You`ve just proved that it applies to you.



    If someone is cheating on their spouse, what is their first instinct? If someone steals anything ever, what is their first instinct? If someone murders someone else, what is their first instinct? It`s the same as when someone thinks that they are gay. They think "This is bad, I have to hide it." Our first instinct is that these things are wrong, yet some of these things still become socially acceptable. You can call me a bigot if you want, but you can`t argue instinct.

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