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Date: 10/11/10 01:34 PM

297 Responses to 17-Week-Old Fetus Ultrasound Pic Shows Smile

  1. Profile photo of fancylad
    fancylad Male 30-39
    18499 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:36 pm
    Link: 17-Week-Old Fetus Ultrasound Pic Shows Smile - Some experts claim the fetus can feel emotions this early. Others refute this. Pro-Lifers are going to go nuts over this
  2. Profile photo of North_Dak
    North_Dak Male 18-29
    126 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:41 pm
    you mean weeks?
  3. Profile photo of gornyhuy
    gornyhuy Male 30-39
    31 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:41 pm
    1)17 months is 2 full terms
    2)even young babies don`t really smile for months and months, they just grimace with stomach gas.
  4. Profile photo of fiizok
    fiizok Male 40-49
    591 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:42 pm
    Seventeen MONTHS??
  5. Profile photo of rammo34
    rammo34 Male 18-29
    1083 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:42 pm
    Foetus? Is that the british spelling of fetus or something?
  6. Profile photo of Epaminondas
    Epaminondas Male 18-29
    1 post
    October 11, 2010 at 1:42 pm
    A 17-month old fetus? There`s something stranger than a smile going on if the fetus is 17 months old.
  7. Profile photo of RockWell
    RockWell Male 18-29
    56 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:42 pm
    LOL at 17 MONTHS old... I am sure it means 17 weeks
  8. Profile photo of DixxyRarr
    DixxyRarr Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:43 pm
    17 Months. DAAAAAMN.
  9. Profile photo of jhendrix
    jhendrix Male 30-39
    89 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:43 pm
    LET THE ARGUMENTS BEGIN!!!!!!
  10. Profile photo of charcat
    charcat Female 18-29
    25 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:43 pm
    17 months?! wtf was it still doing in there...
  11. Profile photo of urbanlegend
    urbanlegend Male 18-29
    741 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:44 pm
    seventeen month old, huh...
  12. Profile photo of NitroJunkie
    NitroJunkie Male 70 & Over
    758 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:44 pm
    Um...a 17 month old fetus, eh? That`s what, the 6th trimester?
  13. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36176 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:44 pm
    why is it not obvious to the most casual observer, that that`s a person in there?
  14. Profile photo of LuckyMisfit
    LuckyMisfit Female 18-29
    4 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:45 pm
    I`m more impressed with the fact that it`s so tiny for being 17 months along. Wow! Must be the longest gestation period in human history!
  15. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:45 pm
    Probably just gas.
  16. Profile photo of CKiss1888
    CKiss1888 Male 18-29
    20 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:46 pm
    this first shocked me by the title... 17 months is almost twice as long as a normal pregnancy. Then I read the article and realized it was a typo...
  17. Profile photo of Jowsh
    Jowsh Male 18-29
    1237 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:46 pm
    Ahem , I think you mean 17-WEEK old FOETUS..
  18. Profile photo of julsey
    julsey Female 18-29
    28 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:46 pm
    you`ll want to change the title...17 weeks, not months.
  19. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:46 pm
    17 months old?

    That`s an old fetus.
  20. Profile photo of fishyboy
    fishyboy Male 30-39
    183 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:47 pm
    I`m pretty sure a 17 month-old fetus can feel pain and emotions. A 17 week-old fetus, now that`s a different story.
  21. Profile photo of Jowsh
    Jowsh Male 18-29
    1237 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:48 pm
    wow those comments with other corrections I did not see! heh
  22. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:48 pm
    17 MONTHS?

    Holy sh*t, that`s just a LITTLE over-due, don`t ya think?

    Fancy-fail aside...

    That looks more like an evil grin, to me. You can just tell that kid`s gonna be a hellion.

    Although, ya know, if you look at it from that angle a normal skull looks like it`s smiling too. Don`t know if fetuses have skulls by that point, but just a thought.
  23. Profile photo of tItsorGTFO
    tItsorGTFO Female 18-29
    46 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:49 pm
    most kids display a wide variety of facial expressions by 17 MONTHS.
  24. Profile photo of iAMzach
    iAMzach Male 18-29
    606 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:50 pm
    abortion is murder
  25. Profile photo of Samen28
    Samen28 Male 13-17
    11 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:51 pm
    I thought it was already common knowledge that babies smile all the time, but it doesn`t mean anything until they`re a few months old, since that`s the point when the brain`s developed enough to properly express emotion.
  26. Profile photo of keysrtona
    keysrtona Female 18-29
    8 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:51 pm
    17 month? lol.
  27. Profile photo of Rick_S
    Rick_S Male 40-49
    3275 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:53 pm
    17 weeks!
  28. Profile photo of LethargicBoy
    LethargicBoy Male 13-17
    5 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:53 pm
    weeks
  29. Profile photo of JAWNS
    JAWNS Male 18-29
    12 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:54 pm
    someone abort that smirking little jagoff asap
  30. Profile photo of BoredFrank
    BoredFrank Male 40-49
    2197 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:55 pm
    17 month old fetus? Should that read 17 weeks?

    Either way, I think that image must be that of the Saw puppet as an infant...
  31. Profile photo of Norris
    Norris Male 18-29
    1011 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:55 pm
    nightmare fuel :P

  32. Profile photo of Chickenthief
    Chickenthief Male 40-49
    84 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:56 pm
    Is it just me or is a 17 month fetus just wrong?
  33. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4887 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:57 pm
    After 17 MONTH inside i really can`t understand why he is smiling.
  34. Profile photo of dblond369
    dblond369 Female 18-29
    178 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:58 pm
    its not that they are happy or sad, they are using their newly developed facial muscles and are practicing making faces.
  35. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36176 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:59 pm
    he`s smiling `cause he farted
  36. Profile photo of SomeShoes
    SomeShoes Male 13-17
    2056 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 1:59 pm
    @ samen, guess not!
  37. Profile photo of Sidragasum
    Sidragasum Male 18-29
    169 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:01 pm
    Smiling doesn`t mean emotion, LOL. It`s just muscle structure forming and being "tested" to put it simply.
  38. Profile photo of lololeela
    lololeela Female 30-39
    327 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:02 pm
    Are they serious? Just because it appears to be smiling doesn`t mean that it`s "happy". Babies make all kinds of faces that have nothing to do with their moods.
  39. Profile photo of cobrakiller
    cobrakiller Male 18-29
    7423 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:04 pm
    that is so f*cking creppy
  40. Profile photo of Hat-Trick
    Hat-Trick Male 18-29
    128 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:05 pm
    I thought ultrasounds only showed a bunch of indecypherable blobs.

    I`ve always believed a woman has the right to choose what to do with her boby but a girl shouldn`t be free to ditch responsibility that easily. It`s hard to tell the difference sometimes. I`ve known women who have had abotions and the guilt eats them up for years afterwards. So will always advise against abortion.

    Either way, babies really aren`t cute for a couple of days after birth so this new info (if it is indeed true, with all the errors I`m inclined to doubt it) doesn`t move me too much.
  41. Profile photo of indians5150
    indians5150 Male 18-29
    47 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:07 pm
    wow her stomach must be huge!!
  42. Profile photo of tstyblucryns
    tstyblucryns Male 18-29
    496 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:12 pm
    Creepy joker baby is making me uncomfortable.
  43. Profile photo of FeelTheRide
    FeelTheRide Female 18-29
    515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:13 pm
    Common sense says he meant 17 WEEKS. Come on people...stop pointing out the obvious...morons
  44. Profile photo of Blakcat71388
    Blakcat71388 Female 18-29
    876 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:15 pm
    Uuuughhhhh... Fetuses are creepy. D:
  45. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:16 pm
    Yes, foetus is the UK spelling.

    And smiling doesn`t mean it`s experiencing happiness. That`s like saying the foetus in this video is waving at the parents, because its arm is moving.
  46. Profile photo of Aeladil
    Aeladil Female 18-29
    518 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:17 pm
    You can`t know what happy is or what smiling symbolizes until you`re taught it. Just because you can make the muscles work to smile, doesn`t mean you have any idea what it represents. For example: chimps can smile too - but in the wild it represents aggression, not happiness.
    Babies in utero have no knowledge to go by on what is happy/sad/pain/etc. They are a blank slate. As for feeling pain? Probably not. The nervous system doesn`t develop (even partially) until the 27th week of gestation, so it`s unlikely that 10 weeks earlier, it can feel pain.
  47. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:18 pm
    I`ve said before that a reasonable non-religious point at which a fetus becomes a human is when it`s heart starts beating. After all when your heart stops beating you are dead, So the reverse must be logically true.

    However I`ve found it hard to find anyone willing to compromise and agree with me on this, Most people tend to be `at conception` or `at birth` on this topic.

    I can understand why, Religiously I`m `at conception` on this but it`s not practical or scientific.

    The `at birth` crowd seem heartless and extreme with their chants of "It`s my uterus". Though it may be living in your uterus, It is still a human being with inalienable rights of it`s own.

    I`d like to see this logical `at heartbeat` concept grow and the calmer heads of this world end the extremism of this controversy.
  48. Profile photo of gorgack2000
    gorgack2000 Male 13-17
    4683 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:25 pm
    Hundreds of thousands of fetuses are ultrascanned every year. One looks like it`s smiling and apparently all fetuses can feel emotion?!

    Well, it`s the Daily Mail...
  49. Profile photo of hammerdrop
    hammerdrop Male 13-17
    199 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:25 pm
    Just cause we associate that combination of muscle movements with happiness and an unborn fetus happened to make those muscle movements doesn`t mean it was expressing happiness.
  50. Profile photo of hammerdrop
    hammerdrop Male 13-17
    199 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:28 pm
    Aeladil
    Studies have actually been done that show that smiling is the innate and unlearned human response to happiness. We aren`t *taught* that smile = happy , we are born with that knowledge whether it`s taught or not. (lulz that rhymed thar)
  51. Profile photo of Reignblazer
    Reignblazer Male 18-29
    2334 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:33 pm
    The antichrist?
  52. Profile photo of a1butcher
    a1butcher Male 40-49
    4812 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:35 pm
    My son,(who is now a 18 year old fetus) would only smile everytime he farted or pooped up until he was a 1 year old fetus.
  53. Profile photo of fancylad
    fancylad Male 30-39
    18499 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:41 pm
    WEEKS! I meant WEEKS! Excuuuuse meeeeeee.
  54. Profile photo of 8BitHero
    8BitHero Male 18-29
    5414 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:43 pm
    The Joker as a baby?
  55. Profile photo of marcus2
    marcus2 Male 13-17
    677 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:45 pm
    @fanclylad.

    No, i will not excuse you for making a simple mistake. Infact i think its a discrase that you should be an admin on this site if you cant update it daily without making a few errors.

    The standards are slipping.

    ;)
  56. Profile photo of CoffeeDiiva
    CoffeeDiiva Female 40-49
    1605 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:45 pm
    hmm babies don`t even smile in real life until they are over a month old so I find this odd
  57. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:46 pm
    The reason this is such a huge controversy in the US is that the courts have vastly overstepped their authority and taken this decision away from the people. There`s no longer any room for compromise between absolute prohibition (which has NEVER worked) and blatant infanticide (which, unfortunately, works all too well).

    However you feel about the issue, Roe v. Wade is a complete mendacity.
  58. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:47 pm
    marcus2: ..discrase..

    D I S G R A C E

    Seems you`re slipping too.
  59. Profile photo of CoffeeDiiva
    CoffeeDiiva Female 40-49
    1605 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:48 pm
    lol by real life I think I meant to say when they are born
  60. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:49 pm
    OldOllie: Would you join me then with the reasonable `at heartbeat` concept and help grow it ?
  61. Profile photo of Load
    Load Male 13-17
    160 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:49 pm
    It must`ve been sarkasim, know one is that dumb.



    "Marcus2: ..discrase..


    D I S G R A C E

    Seems you`re slipping too."

  62. Profile photo of Aeladil
    Aeladil Female 18-29
    518 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:54 pm
    That is an interesting viewpoint CrakrJak. That would put your definition of life beginning at the 6th week mark (6th week of gestation).

    That`s more or less what a 6th weeker looks like (although that`s actually at 5 weeks).

    The only problem I see with adopting your viewpoint is the legality concerning legal abortions. In Canada, about 97% of abortions are done by the 16th week. Only 0.3% occur after 20 weeks (late-term, and usually having to meet specific criteria for it to be done). But if people (and lawmakers) adopted the `heart beat` rule, that would mean a lot of unwanted, unplanned, babies. I know many women who didn`t know they were pregnant until they were nearing 12 weeks.
  63. Profile photo of Aeladil
    Aeladil Female 18-29
    518 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:55 pm
    hammerdrop, I`d be interested in knowing which medical journal the "studies" are posted in. :)
  64. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 2:59 pm
    Kill it.
  65. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:02 pm
    "I`ve said before that a reasonable non-religious point at which a fetus becomes a human is when it`s heart starts beating. After all when your heart stops beating you are dead, So the reverse must be logically true.

    However I`ve found it hard to find anyone willing to compromise and agree with me on this, Most people tend to be `at conception` or `at birth` on this topic.

    I can understand why, Religiously I`m `at conception` on this but it`s not practical or scientific.

    The `at birth` crowd seem heartless and extreme with their chants of "It`s my uterus". Though it may be living in your uterus, It is still a human being with inalienable rights of it`s own.

    I`d like to see this logical `at heartbeat` concept grow and the calmer heads of this world end the extremism of this controversy.
    "

    Then what do your argue for Euthanasia? Surely euthanasia patients have beating hearts, too.
  66. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:04 pm
    To elaborate, would it then be ok to perform Euthanasia (given the circumstances) even if the patient`s heart is beating?

    I assume you would say yes. If not, disregard the rest of my post:

    If it is ok to take the life of a euthanasia patient, then it must likewise be ok to take the `life` of a fetus. Therefore, a beating heart cannot be the deciding factor.
  67. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:05 pm
    I`ve said before that a reasonable non-religious point at which a fetus becomes a human is when it`s heart starts beating. After all when your heart stops beating you are dead, So the reverse must be logically true.

    And I`ve countered it before with the statement that you`re human when your lungs start working. After all when you stop breathing you are dead, so the reverse must be logically true.

    A baby starts breathing after 9 months` gestation, when it is born.
  68. Profile photo of bobhub600
    bobhub600 Male 13-17
    964 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:06 pm
    The dad is just giving me the freakiest rape stare I have ever seen!
  69. Profile photo of Lolboy
    Lolboy Male 70 & Over
    798 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:07 pm
    Apparently some people missed this part:

    Professor Campbell, former head of obstetrics and gynaecology at King`s College and St George`s hospitals in London, said he did not know what caused the smile.

    `It is part of a sequence that involves yawning and making breathing movements and opening its eyelids and, of course, it makes a crying face.`

  70. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:10 pm
    Actually the article states at 7 weeks the heart starts beating. This is a photo of an 8 week fetus, Quite a large difference a few weeks makes doesn`t it ?



    Also, You stated ..that would mean a lot of unwanted, unplanned, babies.

    Maybe unplanned, But certainly not unwanted, There are long waiting lists for couples wanting to adopt a baby.
  71. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:14 pm
    almightybob1: A fetus` lungs do `breathe` much sooner than that, They are breathing amniotic fluid , Not air of course, But they are functioning way before birth.
  72. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:17 pm
    I voted for "feel pain" at 16 weeks.

    However, on the Almighty vs Crakr, Lung vs heart debate:

    1) Would it be ok to kill a diver, who has ceased breathing temporarily?
    2) 9 months suggests that viable babies, (and at much less than 9 months they are babies), have rights attributed to them based on where, not what, they are.

    The same being, inside does not have the right to live, on the outside, has all the legal human rights as anyone else.

    The idea that this is somehow a religious debate to discuss that they should continue to have rights irrespective of where they are, is ridiculous.
  73. Profile photo of
    Northernwolf
    304 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:19 pm
    Kill it with fire!!!
  74. Profile photo of Ani187
    Ani187 Female 30-39
    4448 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:20 pm
    /me stays the hell away from this thread.
  75. Profile photo of tn11
    tn11 Male 18-29
    1587 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:26 pm
    crackerjack.... what`s the plural of fetus? fetii? seem like you would know...
  76. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25406 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:36 pm
    I have a photo of 12 weeks and its more defined than that!
  77. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:36 pm
    tn11: Fetuses, According to the dictionaries I`ve seen. Couldn`t you look that up yourself ?

    If you are trying to criticize my use of the word "fetus`" that is it`s proper possessive form in the English language.
  78. Profile photo of moefreak
    moefreak Female 18-29
    1963 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:38 pm
    This... is from... the Daily Mail. How many times do we have to go over this?

    From The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists: "The fetus cannot feel pain before 24 weeks because the connections in the fetal brain are not fully formed. While in the chemical environment of the womb, is in a state of induced sleep and is unconscious."

    Even newborn infants do not smile for the reasons that children or adults do.
  79. Profile photo of moefreak
    moefreak Female 18-29
    1963 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:41 pm
    Crakrjack: "Maybe unplanned, But certainly not unwanted, There are long waiting lists for couples wanting to adopt a baby."
    There is also a much, much longer list of children waiting for adoption.
  80. Profile photo of tn11
    tn11 Male 18-29
    1587 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:49 pm
    crackerjack: Wasn`t trying to criticize you, simply noticed you DID use "fetus`" correctly.
  81. Profile photo of nastyn800
    nastyn800 Male 18-29
    174 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:50 pm
    Ugh, I hate when parents gloat over every one of their child`s insignificant achievements.

    Looks more to me like a creepy face the Joker would make than a smile.
  82. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:50 pm
    Just a symbiotic clump of cells until it starts breathing air. Nothing more.
  83. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:50 pm
    moefreak: By your logic if you were ever unconscious to the point that you couldn`t feel pain, Then we could kill you ? Please don`t be absurd next time.
  84. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 3:52 pm
    Madest: Just a symbiotic clump of cells until it starts breathing air. Nothing more.

    ...Says the person that was not aborted and had the chance to live a full life.
  85. Profile photo of moefreak
    moefreak Female 18-29
    1963 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 4:00 pm
    If you had been born in a coma and had spent your entire life in a coma then yes, we could kill you. A foetus has never experienced consciousness.

    Especially if you had spent your entire life inside another, conscious, person.
  86. Profile photo of SkyeDragon
    SkyeDragon Female 18-29
    281 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 4:03 pm
    Oh goodness, I knew exactly what would be in the comments when I clicked this and I was right. x-x
    ProLife vs. ProChoice.

    I heard an interesting quote the other day but I can`t recall where it`s from... It said, "If the fetus you saved turned out to be gay, would you still protect its rights?"

    I`m not saying either choice is bad... just made me think.
  87. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 4:04 pm
    almightybob1: A fetus` lungs do `breathe` much sooner than that, They are breathing amniotic fluid , Not air of course, But they are functioning way before birth.
    If anything, that reinforces my point. Try filling any living being`s lungs with a fluid and see how long they live.
    Breathing requires air. Pushing fluid is not breathing, like a twitch is not a smile.

    1) Would it be ok to kill a diver, who has ceased breathing temporarily?
    No. But holding your breath is not the same as stopping breathing. Holding your breath is a conscious act. Your body will override that conscious decision if it has to.

    Regarding question 2, I know and I agree. I should point out, I don`t actually believe that abortions should be carried out until 9 months. I made that statement to show that Crackr`s exact logic can equally be applied to other signs of life to give drastically different conclusion.
  88. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 4:08 pm
    moefreak: By your logic if you were ever unconscious to the point that you couldn`t feel pain, Then we could kill you ? Please don`t be absurd next time.

    And by your logic, we should destroy every crash cart and defibrillator in existence.
  89. Profile photo of trelina
    trelina Female 18-29
    249 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 4:13 pm
    kill it with fire
  90. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 4:19 pm
    "almightybob1: A fetus` lungs do `breathe` much sooner than that, They are breathing amniotic fluid , Not air of course, But they are functioning way before birth. "

    This is a flawed argument and is special pleading. It does not breathe in the sense that we do; it does not use its lungs. The underlying argument is this:

    It is wrong to kill a human.
    Fetuses are human.
    Therefore it is wrong to kill fetuses.

    At least, that seems like what your argument is.

    However, you cannot say that they breathe like a human and therefore are human, because they do not, in fact, breathe like a human. I can expound on this endlessly but it would do no good past this point.
  91. Profile photo of coldCanuck
    coldCanuck Male 13-17
    296 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 4:19 pm
    Wait, it could just be the angle, then everyone is making a big deal of nothing. And that has never happened before <insert sarcastic tone>
  92. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 4:20 pm
    My only thought on this is that that`s no more a "smile" brought on external stimuli than my nose in an ear.

    Now, that doesn`t mean that I`m taking ANY sides in this debate! It just means that trying to put any sort of meaning to the fetus` mouth shape, at that age, is not only ridiculous, it`s weak.
  93. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 4:23 pm
    "...Says the person that was not aborted and had the chance to live a full life."

    Special Pleading
  94. Profile photo of SPARTAKITTY
    SPARTAKITTY Female 18-29
    2123 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 4:27 pm
    Thanks for the nightmare fuel.
  95. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 4:29 pm
    Madestsaid- "Just a symbiotic clump of cells until it starts breathing air. Nothing more."

    Yeah? Google "abrtion" in images and see if you still think that they are Just a symbiotic clump of cells.

    That is if any of you pro-abortion folk have the stones. It is pretty harsh and sad.

    Be for abortion or be against it. But dont try to make it something less than it is.
  96. Profile photo of CmdrBittles
    CmdrBittles Female 18-29
    1173 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 4:33 pm
    24 weeks?! Here it`s 12. Only in the first 3 months can you choose to abort (unless of course there are severe complications).
  97. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 4:35 pm
    "Yeah? Google "abrtion" in images and see if you still think that they are Just a symbiotic clump of cells.

    That is if any of you pro-abortion folk have the stones. It is pretty harsh and sad.

    Be for abortion or be against it. But dont try to make it something less than it is."

    Way to take his quote out of context. Way out of context. You`re worst than a christian apologist.

    All backhanded comments aside, I will say that he was not referring to a fully-grown, 3rd trimester fetus. He was talking about an 8 week fetus. Very different.
  98. Profile photo of moefreak
    moefreak Female 18-29
    1963 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 4:37 pm
    Wizard77, I don`t have any stones. You know why? Because I`m a woman. With ovaries, and a uterus. Someone who has the possibility to get pregnant, and to get an abortion.

    If you google "abortion images" you will come up with a lot of stuff that is pure propaganda. Some of it is blatantly fake, some of it is inaccurately labled (like pretending that a so called "partial birth abortion" is what normal abortions look like).

    Yes, abortions aren`t pretty. Neither are most medical procedures.
  99. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 4:52 pm
    Yeah? Google "abrtion" in images and see if you still think that they are Just a symbiotic clump of cells.
    Showing results for "abrtion". Did you mean "abortion"?

    All pedantry aside - Google image search "autopsy" and you will get some very disgusting images. That doesn`t mean we shouldn`t perform autopsies.
    This particular logical fallacy is called "appeal to emotion".
  100. Profile photo of _kiersten_
    _kiersten_ Female 18-29
    1684 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 4:53 pm
    I`m still going to abort if I want to anyways...If its before 4 months I won`t feel bad. Most doctors won`t do it past that anyways. This fetus is already 4 months and a week. Which means just about every abortion doctor wouldn`t abort it. So...yeah.

    Its my body, its my choice. It doesn`t affect you in anyway. You don`t even need to know about it. Which means I can abort a parasite from my body if I choose to. If you don`t like it then thats just to damn bad. Am I saying you should be able to abort fetus after fetus? No. You shouldn`t use it as a birth control. But regardless, it is my choice in the end, not yours. You`re just going to have to deal with that.
  101. Profile photo of Salted_Eggs
    Salted_Eggs Male 18-29
    774 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 5:00 pm
    Well if THAT wasn`t scary enough for you.
  102. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 5:17 pm
    moefreak Yeah you can play on the "I am a woman and don`t have stones" angle. But you are smart enough to know what I meant.

    Yes you can get pregnant and you can choose to get an abortion. You can also choose to not get pregnant.

    I agree that most medical procedures are not pretty. But then we are not talking about most medical procedures. We are talking about abortion. Are there fakes and propaganda? Yep. No doubt about it. But again you are smart enough to tell the difference aren`t you?

    An abortion kills. If it didn`t then there wouldn`t be so much contention over it. I can easily say that I will never need to face such a difficult position. I cant get pregnant and so its easy and safe for me to say Id never do such a thing. I have killed full grown human beings. Many people say they could never do that. They are safe in this statement because they are not in combat. But I live in a nation where military service is voluntary. I could have chosen
  103. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 5:21 pm
    ...I could have chosen not to join. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

    But neither is anything other than it is. Both require taking direct (and avoidable) action to end life. All the word smithing and talking around corners doesn`t change that.
  104. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 5:22 pm
    And almightybob1, now you are just being as ass.
  105. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 5:25 pm
    And almightybob1, now you are just being as ass.
    Because of the spelling pedantry, or pointing out the logical fallacy?
    The first was just a little joke, I`ve made plenty of spelling mistakes today myself. No offence meant.
    No apologies for the latter though. The gruesomeness of an image has no bearing on its morality.
  106. Profile photo of moefreak
    moefreak Female 18-29
    1963 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 5:27 pm
    Wizard77... so... why is it OK for you to choose to kill fully grown, conscious human beings but it is not OK for women to choose to have an abortion? Or are you in fact saying that it is OK for women to have abortions?

    I know what you meant with the stones comment, but I chose to ignore it. If you think that it doesn`t take courage for a woman to have an abortion then you are wrong.

    Also, how am I supposed to choose not to get pregant? Never have sex? I`m not ready to have children until I`ve graduated university and have a career going, should I not ever have sex with my future husband until then? I don`t think that`s fair.

    And don`t go with the whole "use contraception" angle. I have never had unprotected sex in my life, and I never will. However, this protection can (and does) fail quite a significant proportion of the time.
  107. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 5:30 pm
    Wizard77

    You assume that the fetus` right to life supercedes the rights of the mother. I dont believe this is the case. You can argue til your blue in the face about it, but thats just how it is; differing opinions.
  108. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 5:30 pm
    "The first was just a little joke, I`ve made plenty of spelling mistakes today myself. No offence meant."

    Fair enough.

    As for the autopsy comparison, its flawed. Those people are dead before the procedure. Abortion causes the condition of death. If you google murder and see horrid stuff, you don`t say "well just because it is gruesome doesn`t mean its wrong" or some such.
  109. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 5:38 pm
    you don`t say "well just because it is gruesome doesn`t mean its wrong" or some such.

    You`re right. I say "the gruesomeness of an image has no bearing on its morality".

    A human is an independent living being, therefore killing is in almost all cases wrong. Obviously there are exceptions - I don`t blame you for killing people in combat, and I would not condemn someone for killing in self-defence or in defence of another.

    In my opinion, a foetus is not yet a living being, up to a point. Therefore abortion is acceptable, up to a point. I admit I do have trouble deciding where to draw the line. Because a line must be drawn, but there is always an argument for drawing it a little earlier or later.

    Wherever we decide will be fairly arbitrary, so a compromise like Baal`s suggestion of the feel-pain threshold at 16 weeks seems acceptable.
  110. Profile photo of moefreak
    moefreak Female 18-29
    1963 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 5:42 pm
    almightybob1, the feel pain threshold is at 24 weeks.
  111. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 5:44 pm
    "... so... why is it OK for you to choose to kill fully grown, conscious human beings..."

    I didn`t say it was ok. I said it is what it is. Killing.

    As for what you should do or not do? How could I know. Yeah you can choose not to have sex, or use birth control or whatever you want. I could have decided to become a diesel mechanic or a monk or any number of things. But I do not pretend that what I have done is anything other than what it is and that my actions are my own.
  112. Profile photo of moefreak
    moefreak Female 18-29
    1963 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 5:49 pm
    Wizard77, so you`re fine with me choosing to do whatever I want as long as I accept that it`s morally reprehensible? I don`t think any more of you for killing people while feeling bad about it. I don`t think that having an abortion is the slightest bit wrong, because I do not believe that aborting a foetus is even in the same ballpark as killing a human.

    You do realize, though, that if you think that I should have the right to have an abortion (as morally wrong as you may find it), that makes you pro-choice. Just as I think you should have the right to go to war, as much as I find that wrong.
  113. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 5:56 pm
    almightybob1, the feel pain threshold is at 24 weeks.
    Oh. 6 months, really? That seems quite far on. Who knew. Well, 24 weeks then.
  114. Profile photo of inaria
    inaria Female 18-29
    1515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 5:56 pm
    That "smile" will give me nightmares x.x

    Anyways, I don`t believe it`s a "smile" at all, since I`m pretty sure babies learn to emotionally smile by mimicking their parents etc. Though babies do smile during their sleep from birth, it`s not the same sort of smile and has no emotional attachment. It`s just a reflex-type thing and for some reason premature babies do it more than full-term babies. *shrugs*
  115. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 5:58 pm
    moefreak I didn`t say anything about your morals, my morals. It is obvious that you are either too simple minded and/or emotionally undeveloped to understand what I am talking about, or that you are being intentionally difficult.

    I am done attempting to have an adult conversation with you in any case.
  116. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 6:02 pm
    I`m pretty sure babies learn to emotionally smile by mimicking their parents
    Nope, some actions are a type of instinct, like an inherited memory. For example, a child who is born blind will still smile and laugh when happy, even though they have never seen a smile.
  117. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 6:04 pm
    bob said0 "In my opinion, a foetus is not yet a living being, up to a point."

    Its not a living being? Really? Is a plant a living being?

    I am not trying to pick pepper out of fly crap here, I`m just attempting to get windage on what "living" or "alive" is to you.
  118. Profile photo of inaria
    inaria Female 18-29
    1515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 6:08 pm
    Oh, my bad. But I do know they don`t emotionally smile (like connecting happiness to smiling) from birth, so my argument that the fetus wasn`t "smiling" still stands.

    Creepy little bugger.
  119. Profile photo of moefreak
    moefreak Female 18-29
    1963 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 6:09 pm
    Wizard77, what? I thought we were doing quite well. All I`m saying is, if you are fine with yourself doing things that you personally find wrong, then logically you should be OK with other people doing things that you find wrong. If you are entitled to choose to kill people, then women should be entitled to choose to "kill people" as you view it. Thus, you are pro-choice.

    I don`t know why you felt the need to insult me. That doesn`t seem like adult conversation to me.
  120. Profile photo of Kougaiji
    Kougaiji Male 18-29
    604 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 6:35 pm
    Bible defines life as beginning at birth, not conception.

    see this
  121. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 6:36 pm
    Its not a living being? Really? Is a plant a living being?
    Not until it`s independent, I would say no.
    A plant is a living being, yes, but an acorn is not.

    There was a case in UK law, C v S Court of Appeal 1987. They ruled that a foetus at the 22-week mark (the stage of the foetus in this case) was not capable of being born alive. I would say that in that case, it is not a living being.
    In another case in 1979 it was ruled that the foetus cannot have a right of its own until it is born and has a separate existence from its mother.

    Those are both decisions I agree with. Although of course it then raises other questions - if a heavily pregnant woman is assaulted and subsequently miscarries, did the attacker commit murder of the unborn child? Emotionally, I would want to say yes, but logically I have to say no.
  122. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 6:42 pm

    I am not trying to pick pepper out of fly crap here, I`m just attempting to get windage on what "living" or "alive" is to you.
    No problem, I`m happy to answer questions about it. It`s an interesting topic.

    It`s very hard to define life. In general terms, I would go with the definition that states it is "a self-sustaining chemical system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution".
    But that`s more a general definition, not specific for individual cases.

    For babies, I would say they are alive when they are capable of surviving outside the womb. As in, they can breathe for themselves, digest food, etc etc etc.

    What about you? How do you define life?
  123. Profile photo of moefreak
    moefreak Female 18-29
    1963 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 6:47 pm
    almightybob1, I think there`s a distinction that needs to be made between "a life" and "alive". A foetus is alive in the same sense that a mushroom is alive, but it is not a life. A life begins when a child is born.
  124. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 6:56 pm
    almightybob1: Try filling any living being`s lungs with a fluid and see how long they live.
    Breathing requires air. Pushing fluid is not breathing

    So you`ve never heard of fish then ?

    And by your logic, we should destroy every crash cart and defibrillator in existence.

    Dude, You can`t actually be this obtuse can you ?

    if a heavily pregnant woman is assaulted and subsequently miscarries, did the attacker commit murder of the unborn child?

    Men have already been convicted of this and are serving life in prison, It is considered murder.
  125. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 6:58 pm
    Interesting. Do you have children? If not a sister maybe?

    The direction I`m headed here is fairly obvious. Lets say your wife or sister was a month or two along with your son or nephew. Bad guy roughs her up for a few bucks in her purse. Nothing too savage; a black eye, a fat lip and maybe a kick or two to the midsection. No broken bones of stitches needed. This causes a miscarriage. Where do you stand on this? If the perp is caught, do you want him charged with a simple purse snatching and low level assault?

    Or does the miscarriage bring it to a new level for you?

    As for me and life. Well this may be hard to believe coming from the "flame fanner" but I feel bad even killing a spider in the house. Ill put them outside if I can and if they must die, I usually say "sorry" and do my best to make it fast. And yes, I think plants are alive.

    I believe if it grows biologically, it is then by definition, alive.
  126. Profile photo of moefreak
    moefreak Female 18-29
    1963 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 7:01 pm
    CrakrJak, in the criminal systems of most western countries in the world (and most of the US, as far as I am aware), causing a woman to miscarry is not murder. It is a crime, but it is not considered homicide.
  127. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 7:01 pm
    Kougaiji: Jerimiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

  128. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 7:05 pm
    HARRIS CO., Texas, November 27, 2008 - A Texas appellate court has upheld its ruling that affirms the personhood of an unborn child who was murdered along with its mother.

    Jacob Eguia, who was convicted of the capital murders of a woman and her nearly eight months gestation unborn child, challenged the court`s ruling on several points. He argued that finding him guilty of the unborn child`s death violated the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution and Art. I, Sec. 6 of the Texas Constitution, which bars giving preference by law to a religion.

    In the Texas Penal Code, as the court noted, “‘Person’ means an individual," and "individual" may refer to “an unborn child at every stage of gestation from fertilization until birth”; and “‘death’ includes, for an individual who is an unborn child, the failure to be born alive.”
  129. Profile photo of moefreak
    moefreak Female 18-29
    1963 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 7:05 pm
    Obviously causing a woman to miscarry should be a crime, as it is against her will. Just like it is not illegal for me to cut off my own finger, but it should damn well be illegal for anyone else to do it to me against my will.
  130. Profile photo of kummi90
    kummi90 Male 18-29
    541 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 7:16 pm
    YES! I do believe a fetus is a living thing!!!!

    ...But so is a genital wart. If it`s gonna irritate you for life, burn it off...
  131. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 7:36 pm
    So you`ve never heard of fish then ?
    Fish have gills, not lungs. They are very, very different.

    Dude, You can`t actually be this obtuse can you ?
    You said: If moefreak suggests we use pain sensing as the measurement, we should be allowed to kill unconscious people who cannot feel pain.
    I said: If you suggest we use heartbeat as the measurement, we should not use defibrillators to restore heart rhythm, since the person is dead the moment their heart stops beating.

    How can you NOT see that they are directly analogous?
  132. Profile photo of Saskuel
    Saskuel Male 13-17
    343 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 7:37 pm
    ive seen that smile before.... SATAN BABY!
  133. Profile photo of OmgZelda
    OmgZelda Female 18-29
    1593 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 7:37 pm
    Okay. Fetuses and babies don`t smile because they`re happy. They smile because they`re learning how to.

    Older babies, around 4-5 months smile because of happiness. You will know the difference because they look at you and then look away. They`re trying to contain their joy.

    Kthnx.
  134. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 7:39 pm
    Wizard: I have a sister, but no children. And if someone beat her up and caused her to miscarry (or even if someone just beat her up at all), I would want to beat him to death myself.
    But that is because I would want revenge, and revenge is not the same as justice, which is why we need an impartial judicial system.

    So as I said, emotionally I would want to say "it`s murder", especially if MY family is involved. But impartially and logically (which is how I think the law should be formed) I would say it is not murder.
  135. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 7:44 pm
    So simple purse snatching and low level assault is it?

    See something inside me makes it clear that such a light set of charges are also not justice.
  136. Profile photo of rainbowfarts
    rainbowfarts Female 18-29
    798 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 7:47 pm
    Does it matter? At 17 weeks, you can`t abort anyway, this does nothing for the argument.
  137. Profile photo of Nervchild
    Nervchild Male 18-29
    68 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 7:52 pm
    according to that spreadsheet or whatever it was that means its ok to get an abortion as late as 6 months. That cant be right can it? i thought you only had like 3. Am i wrong?
  138. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 7:56 pm
    So simple purse snatching and low level assault is it?

    I don`t know if you have an equivalent in the US, but in England there is an offence called Grievous Bodily Harm (GBH). It`s a more serious form of assault. In Scots law it`s called aggravated assault. I would say it should fall under that.

    At 17 weeks, you can`t abort anyway, this does nothing for the argument.
    The limit in the UK is 24 weeks. And for medical emergencies, right up until birth.
  139. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 7:58 pm
    almightybob1: I did not say "If moefreak suggests we use pain sensing as the measurement, we should be allowed to kill unconscious people who cannot feel pain." I was being absurd to demonstrate her logical absurdity.

    And defibrillators have nothing to do with whether or not a fetus is alive.

    If your heart stops beating you are technically dead, If they manage to restart your heart you may come back alive, If they don`t you remain dead.
  140. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:01 pm
    "And defibrillators have nothing to do with whether or not a fetus is alive.

    If your heart stops beating you are technically dead, If they manage to restart your heart you may come back alive, If they don`t you remain dead. "

    Address the absurdity of your fish comment, please.
  141. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:03 pm
    So as I said, emotionally I would want to say "it`s murder"

    Your first instinct is the correct one, Why else would you want murderous revenge if the fetus wasn`t alive and had rights ? If you were truly convince that it`s just a ball of cells, You wouldn`t feel that way. Maybe you would want to punch him for assaulting your sister, But you stated I would want to beat him to death myself.
  142. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:06 pm
    "Your first instinct is the correct one, Why else would you want murderous revenge if the fetus wasn`t alive and had rights ? If you were truly convince that it`s just a ball of cells, You wouldn`t feel that way. Maybe you would want to punch him for assaulting your sister, But you stated I would want to beat him to death myself."

    Are you assuming moral naturalism? I then disagree with that premise. Your first instinct isn`t always correct.
  143. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:10 pm
    yanging: The act of breathing is not exclusive to lungs or air. It is a method of oxygenating the blood, We have developed machines that can do this.

    Scientists are also investigating if it is possible for mammals to breathe a highly oxygenated fluid instead of air. Liquid-Breathing
  144. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:10 pm
    @CrakrJak, that`s not a bad idea. On the other hand, the heart starts beating only 3 weeks after conception, and it can`t be detected by a stethoscope then. It`s possible that a woman might not realize she`s pregnant until it`s too late.

    It`s a tough issue. Any laws restricting abortion would be horrendously difficult to enforce. Should we give pregnancy tests to all women of childbearing age whenever they leave the country and then retest those who tested positive on their return?

    Abortion is nasty business, and I`m for anything that would reduce it, but no law will ever stop it completely. How about allowing people pay women to carry babies to term so they can adopt them. There are probably thousands of couples who would pay $25K for a child. I`m sure there are just as many women who would change their minds for that kind of money. Is that child selling? Yes. Will some women get pregnant just for the money? Probably. Is that as bad as abortion? No way.
  145. Profile photo of Kougaiji
    Kougaiji Male 18-29
    604 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:11 pm
    Intentionally causing a miscarriage against the woman`s will is considered murder. Accidentally is considered manslaughter, usually. Keyphrase being "against the woman`s will". This has nothing to do with abortion. Abortions are legal until 6 months.

    The "fetus"/embryo really mostly looks like goo until after two months, and even then good luck telling it apart from a cow, rat, or even reptile fetus.

    If a fetus cannot survive outside of the mother`s womb, then it should not be considered a living thing, it is part of the woman`s body.

    While I did enjoy the jesus n` mo link, the fact of the matter is that it /doesnt matter/ what the bible says about life. Maybe in Vatican City, or some other christian-theocratic government, but not in US court. See First Amendment.

    Furthermore, making abortion illegal will just force those wanting abortions to resort to unsafe, unregulated, non-clinical, unhygienic means to achieve them.
  146. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:13 pm
    yanging: I`m not suggesting that people take the law into their own hands, But that desire to seek justice is perfectly normal and correct.
  147. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:13 pm
    I was being absurd to demonstrate her logical absurdity.
    And I was being absurd to demonstrate the absurdity of your absurdity.

    You and moefreak both choose different signs of life as the defining line. You choose heartbeat, she chooses response to painful stimuli.

    You then come up with a scenario where absence of her choice means the person is as good as dead. You claim this shows why her choice is absurd.
    I then come up with a scenario where absence of your choice means the person is as good as dead. I claim this shows why your choice is absurd.

    They are no different.

    And defibrillators have nothing to do with whether or not a fetus is alive.
    Neither do unconscious people, but we ended up there anyway.

    If your heart stops beating you are technically dead
    The same could be said of breathing. That is my whole point.
    Brainwave patterns are another indicator often used.
  148. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:14 pm
    "yanging: The act of breathing is not exclusive to lungs or air. It is a method of oxygenating the blood, We have developed machines that can do this.

    Scientists are also investigating if it is possible for mammals to breathe a highly oxygenated fluid instead of air. Liquid-Breathing"

    This is a case of special pleading. You gave the example of breath as life for a human, which indicates lungs, then refer to fish as a counter to our rebuttal.

    Please try again.
  149. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:15 pm
    OldOllie: The article stated the heart starts beating at 7 weeks, I had read that it was 12 weeks a few years ago. 3 weeks seems very early and I`ve not read any literature stating that.
  150. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:17 pm
    yanging: I didn`t make "the example of breath as life for a human", Almightybob1 did and he stated that only when a baby breathes air for the first time is a fetus alive.
  151. Profile photo of Hylian4Hire
    Hylian4Hire Female 18-29
    329 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:18 pm
    It`s creepy. Kill it with fire.
  152. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:20 pm
    You`ll also notice that I said "or even if someone just beat her up at all". I would be full of rage even if someone just attacked her, because she`s wee and kind and an easy target for the kind of coward you would have to be to attack her.

    If you want a legal system based on revenge rather than justice, you`re welcome to it Crackr. But that`s not civilisation, that`s barbarism.


    And considering you told me last week about the New Covenant of Jesus, you seem to prefer "an eye for an eye" over "turn the other cheek".
  153. Profile photo of Kougaiji
    Kougaiji Male 18-29
    604 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:20 pm
    Time to clean up lies...

    In a fetus, the lungs are NOT in use. No they are not pumping liquid, they just aren`t in use. All nutrients come from the umbilical cord or are absorbed from the placenta.

    The heart and other organs don`t begin to form until 5 weeks into the pregnancy, and at that stage the entire embryo is about 1/16th of an inch long.

    It takes about 9-10 weeks for the "baby" to be about 1 inch long. Red blood cells begin to form in the liver at week 11, after which it is officially considered a "fetus" vs an embryo.
  154. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:23 pm
    he stated that only when a baby breathes air for the first time is a fetus alive.

    But I don`t support abortions up to that point. I think the pain threshold at 24 weeks is a reasonable compromise of where to draw the line.
  155. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:23 pm
    almightybob1: the case of Terry Schiavo defeats your point, Her husband killed her by demanding that her feeding tube be removed.

  156. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:24 pm
    Crakr: Sorry, I confused you with wizard77 since you both argued the same idea.

    Wizard posited that fetuses do, in fact, breathe. That, instead of air, they breathe amniotic fluid. I pointed out how this was a fallacious case of special pleading.

    You then brought up the idea of a fish, and I again pointed out how this was an erroneous case of special pleading.
  157. Profile photo of entwife
    entwife Female 18-29
    536 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:25 pm
    Whatever you believe about when life begins or women`s rights and all of that, you have to admit that IF unborn babies can feel pain earlier than 24 weeks and IF they are conscious in any way, then allowing them to be intentionally aborted is criminal cruelty at the very least. It`s also extremely arrogant for anyone to assume that it is impossible for a fetus to feel pain and/or to possess basic consciousness. We simply don`t know.

    That`s all I`m going to say.
  158. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:27 pm
    You know, it`s really funny that we`re debating this, because I JUST had a whole two weeks of discussion on Abortion and Euthanasia in my Contemporary Moral Issues class.

    Terry Schaivo`s husband might have killed her, but it was passive and involuntary euthanasia, not murder.
  159. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:27 pm
    almightybob1: the case of Terry Schiavo defeats your point, Her husband killed her by demanding that her feeding tube be removed.

    While I read about this case, can you specify which point this defeats and how?
  160. Profile photo of Kougaiji
    Kougaiji Male 18-29
    604 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:27 pm
    Crakr, it was determined that she was not responding to outside stimuli, and had no hope for recovery. She was not considered a live for all intensive purposes. If you consider that state of existence to be "life", then that is your choice, but it does not meet the scientific definition of it. Thus, unless the family was willing to pick up paying hospital bills (which i imagine you don`t want the government to cover so it only makes sense that the individual decides when to start/stop receiving and paying for the service), he and the doctors had every right to stop wasting resources on someone in a permanent vegetative state.

    The brain doesn`t just grow back after massive damage, especially not at her age. It doesn`t happen.
  161. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:29 pm
    "It`s also extremely arrogant for anyone to assume that it is impossible for a fetus to feel pain and/or to possess basic consciousness. We simply don`t know. "

    You would need a brain and brain wave activity to feel pain. Many pro-life sources will claim an out-dated and heavily misrepresented medical journal (which doesn`t need to be reviewed) from 1963 that talks about EEG in fetuses aborted via Cesarean sections. They will state that EEG activity starts as early as 8 weeks. This is false.

    As we know that, for brain activities to occur, there must exist axons, neurons, and synapses, we know that a fetus does not have any of these prior to weeks 20-24. Therefore, it cannot feel pain.
  162. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:32 pm
    Kougaiji: I`ll give you sources.

    "By 11 to 12 weeks (3 months), he is breathing fluid steadily and continues so until birth. At birth, he will breathe air. He does not drown by breathing fluid with-in his mother, because he obtains his oxygen from his umbilical cord. This breathing develops the organs of respiration." "Life Before Birth," Life Magazine, Apr. 30, 1965, p. 13

    fetal heartbeat will begin to beat in the first trimester. Typically this cannot be heard with even a Doppler until the 9-10th week of pregnancy at the earliest, sometimes not until the 12-14th weeks of pregnancy.
  163. Profile photo of Kougaiji
    Kougaiji Male 18-29
    604 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:37 pm
    Conservative Christian, noun, definition:
    1. Person who is against abortion for individuals that cannot support or take care of children, but at the same time is against providing any social welfare for citizens in need of it. While many call themselves pro life, they agree to fund wars which murder hundreds of thousands and displace millions under the guise of "supporting the troops" which execute these actions. A hypocrite, who pushes the poor and disabled farther and farther back, prevents any social help from being established where it is needed ("NOT IN MY BACKYARD"), but continues to attend a biweekly dress-up contest consisting of mostly sweatshop-made clothing, where he/she donates capital to continue overpopulating the neighborhood with a new, more extravagant, untaxed business at every corner.
    2. An uneducated, easily infuriated, easily manipulated voter.
  164. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:40 pm
    "Life Magazine, Apr. 30, 1965, p. 13"

    Lol. Nice. 45 year old paper. Good research.
  165. Profile photo of moefreak
    moefreak Female 18-29
    1963 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:45 pm
    Final word before going to bed:
    Please don`t judge others so harshly for the choices they make, particularly when you will never have to make such a choice. Abortions are beneficial to women (unsafe or illegal abortions lead to women dying) and children (around 60% of women who get abortions are already mothers).

    Facts: Link
  166. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:45 pm
    Crackr, that is 45 years old, in a magazine which as far as I am aware has no peer review process.

    And anyway, that may counter Kougaiji`s statement that the lungs are not in use, but as we`ve established with the never-heard-of-a-fish episode, moving fluid =/= breathing. The foetus gets its oxygen supply through the placenta, not through the lungs, whether they are moving fluid around or not.
  167. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:52 pm
    Kougaiji: Her quality of life may not have been good, But if you condemn her that easily then you also condemn people like Stephen Hawking and those with conditions like cerebral palsy.
  168. Profile photo of fivezones
    fivezones Male 40-49
    1021 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:55 pm
    Can we not look at something cute without the pro-life and pro-choice going nuts?
  169. Profile photo of dragosal
    dragosal Male 18-29
    1630 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:57 pm
    i love how everyone gets stuck on the whole life thing. technically you can say it is alive at conception because at that point it is a separate organism. but of course it doesnt matter because its not a person, before birth it is little more then a parasite
  170. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 8:58 pm
    Kougaiji: I don`t know where you got that stupid definition, But it does not describe my views.

    Don`t assume that you `know` me, By reading such stupidity.
  171. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 9:03 pm
    yanging & almightybob1: Just because it was discovered 45 years ago doesn`t mean it`s inaccurate. The fact of fetal breathing is substantiated every day with doppler ultrasound in hospitals, clinics, and doctors offices every day.
  172. Profile photo of yanging
    yanging Male 18-29
    172 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 9:05 pm
    "yanging & almightybob1: Just because it was discovered 45 years ago doesn`t mean it`s inaccurate. The fact of fetal breathing is substantiated every day with doppler ultrasound in hospitals, clinics, and doctors offices every day. "

    It is inaccurate because it is again a case of special pleading. They do NOT breathe in the sense that we do. Their lungs do not process oxygen from the fluid or air around them.
  173. Profile photo of Ando
    Ando Male 13-17
    374 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 9:05 pm
    It`s cool how people naturally know how to smile.
  174. Profile photo of rikguenther
    rikguenther Male 18-29
    25 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 9:13 pm
    i lol`d at "foetus"
  175. Profile photo of Kalimata
    Kalimata Male 30-39
    661 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 9:23 pm
    I think I`m going to place my faith in the men and women who spend almost a decade in additional schooling and study over anyone else. These folks can take out a heart, and replace it with another one. They can open up a skull and remove cancerous tissue, and leave you still functioning. If doctors and scientists say the fetus doesn`t feel and is not alive, thats enough for me.
  176. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 9:33 pm
    Kougaiji is an idiot.
  177. Profile photo of Valex_Shade
    Valex_Shade Male 18-29
    76 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 9:55 pm
    Some of you are calling it cute. Id say thats probably the creepiest Sh** ive ever seen on here xD
  178. Profile photo of NotTHATbored
    NotTHATbored Female 18-29
    1101 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 10:04 pm
    Foetus? This is real legitimate stuff here.
  179. Profile photo of drips
    drips Male 30-39
    904 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 10:16 pm
    Just because it makes faces we recognize as smiling or whatever doesn`t necessarily mean it`s feeling the emotions we associate with those faces. That`s utter speculation.

    And anyway 88% of abortions happen before the 12 week mark with about 60% before 8 weeks so this is a little deceptive.
  180. Profile photo of drips
    drips Male 30-39
    904 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 10:28 pm
    Just because it makes faces we recognize as smiling or whatever doesn`t necessarily mean it`s feeling the emotions we associate with those faces. That`s utter speculation.

    And anyway 88% of abortions happen before the 12 week mark with about 60% before 8 weeks so this is a little deceptive.
  181. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 10:37 pm
    almightybob1 The laws seem similar. We have four levels of assault Assault 1 is the worst and means you did permanent harm. Scaring, broken bones etc. Assault 4 is basically some shoving and punching but nothing more than bruising and swelling as a result.

    Aggravated Assault is when you are assaulting, and then got weird. Like you were beating someone up and then bashed their head into a wall or something. Although you didnt kill the victim, the potential was there for serious or permanent injury.

    GBH (in most states) entails injury that is permanent and will effect the victim over a long period of time or for life.

  182. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 10:39 pm
    Foetus? This is real legitimate stuff here.
    This is a UK paper. Foetus is the UK spelling.
  183. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 10:40 pm
    Now that we have what our scenario entails, with no intent of serious injury (or low resultant injury to the intended victim) and even low monetary loss (lets say 25 dollars or 50 pounds sterling etc) due to the crime, Is it justice that the perpetrator receive say, 6 months or a year in jail?

    Is that justice? Lets put personal emotions aside a second. Is that a "just" punishment for such a crime? If you read about it in the paper, happening to someone you never met; would you say to yourself "justice was done" and feel that the punishment fit the crime?

    Please dont feel that I am grilling or pestering you. Its just that I am pretty sure you have an IQ over 98 (unlike the majority of the ant farm I like to shake up here for amusement) and I want to understand where you are coming from.
  184. Profile photo of SnapsForMe
    SnapsForMe Female 18-29
    217 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 10:47 pm
    If I slept, that face would be the kind of thing that haunted my dreams.
  185. Profile photo of Intaresting
    Intaresting Male 18-29
    812 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 11:13 pm
    Oh fzck! It`s Joker!
  186. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 11:14 pm
    Well I`m not a lawyer, so I don`t know how this scenario would actually be prosecuted, but I would say that in my opinion serious harm HAS been caused, and so GBH or aggravated assault should be the charge and the basis of the sentence. There may be no intention to cause harm, but it still resulted.

    I say that serious harm did occur because, even if you consider the foetus to be part of the mother until birth (which could be argued to be true), you are causing irreparable damage to that part.

    So I think that no, 6 months to a year is not enough, but I would hope that a conviction for GBH or aggravated assault would always give a longer sentence than that.
  187. Profile photo of shepherd
    shepherd Male 30-39
    137 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 11:17 pm
    looks like wind (gas) to me
  188. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 11:29 pm
    "On the other hand, the heart starts beating only 3 weeks after conception"
    Hold the phone OldOllie, 3 weeks? You DO know that a 21 day old foetus a basically a clump of cells which is starting to take the shape of a spinal cord and brainstem (several weeks later it starts looking like a little fish). There is no heart to beat at this stage, no internal organs at all in fact, it`s all building primordial structure at three weeks, I assure you.



    Source
  189. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 11:29 pm
    Footnote on spelling: As Bob pointed out, in British English it`s spelt (not "spelled": yes, another British English word) foetus. British English tends to spell (especially scientific) terms with the original Greek or Lating root spelling. American English tends to spell words phoenetically (phonetically if you`re American), or as they sound to the ear, with disregard to the original spelling.

    Hence foetus/fetus, paedophile/pedophile, sulphur/sulfur, palaeontology/paleontology, etc.
  190. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 11:32 pm
    And don`t even get me STARTED on aluminium/aluminum. The "ium" suffix was originally intended in the world of science to denote any chemical element, so even if you weren`t a chemist you would know just from hearing a term ending in "ium" you would know you`re dealing with a chemical element (though old words kept their names, iron, tin, copper, etc). Same as the suffix "ite" means you`re dealing with a mineral. Dropping the "i" to make it just "aluminum" bucks the entire scientific system, and is deeply, deeply retarded. (Sorry to rant, but I`m astounded at the number of American colleagues that berate me, as a British professional PhD scientist, for spelling aluminium "wrong").

    /triple off-topic post, sorry!
  191. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 11:37 pm
    "I say that serious harm did occur because, even if you consider the foetus to be part of the mother until birth (which could be argued to be true), you are causing irreparable damage to that part."

    Ok here I am losing your logic chain. If its just a part of the mother, and really nothing special; a thing that can be replaced with ease like a fingernail torn off in the scuffle; then no big deal?

    Why hope for a more harsh punishment?
  192. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 11:46 pm
    Ok davymid, but I must bust your balls a bit on enunciation. on second though, never mind man, I "appen" to disagree and whatever makes you "appy" is what you should use. :D
  193. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 11:48 pm
    I never said it was nothing special. And a foetus isn`t replaced like other parts. You could get pregnant again, but it wouldn`t be the same foetus.

    The best analogy I can think of is that it would be like tearing out a chunk of the mother`s flesh. It`s a part of the mother and although it could grow back, it won`t be the same again.
  194. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 11, 2010 at 11:52 pm
    Ok davymid, but I must bust your balls a bit on enunciation. on second though, never mind man, I "appen" to disagree and whatever makes you "appy" is what you should use.
    Ironically, both myself and davy (assuming he has the standard Belfast accent) would put quite a bit of emphasis on the H at the start of words. Dropping it tends to be more of an English thing :P
  195. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 12:06 am
    vv What Bob said. I assure you, we Scots and British Irish enunciate the English language much better that (some) English people do. I`ve even been accused in the past of being "eloquent" and "well-spoken".

    Hey, the kind of British schools myself and Bob went to were called "Grammar Schools" (as opposed to "High Schools") for a reason...
  196. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 12:08 am
    No matter how you spell it, At 17 weeks it`s heart is beating, Has functioning lungs, Has nerve endings and an EEG. Regardless of whether or not this baby `smiled` voluntarily or not, It`s a living human being in my book at this stage and should have the same human rights of any full-term baby.
  197. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 12:15 am
    Crakr, as much as we may disagree on some levels political, ideological and religious, you are dead right. There`s definitley a conversation to be had here about abortion, and when a human foetus is considered a life worth saving. It goes to the deepest cores of human values, and it`s important to get it right. I would disagree fundamentally with you on where those boundaries lie, but you`re dead right, it`s an important issue. One that I for one am very interested in.
  198. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 12:17 am



    That`s a human being, I don`t care to hear any more lame excuses saying that it isn`t. Good night
  199. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 12:30 am
    Why yes, Crakr, it certainly is. That`s a baby of 7-8 months, about to be born into the world. A person.

    But that`s not the conversation that we`re having here. It`s about ethics, when it`s OK to terminate a pregnancy. No-one here on this thread (best I can tell) is advocating murdering full-term babies.

    But yeah... Good night.
  200. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 12:36 am
    p.s. after a bit of digging, your pic is from a website which states its claim and agenda as being opposed to "coarseness of popular culture, the rise in Islamic fundamentalism and paganism... and push back a bit against the barbarians."

    You`ll forgive me if I take your pics (and your opinions) with a seriously large pinch of salt.
  201. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 12:38 am
    davymid: That picture is of an 18 week old fetus. Do a simple image search, It and others like it were not hard to find.
  202. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 12:48 am
    At 17 weeks it`s heart is beating, Has functioning lungs, Has nerve endings and an EEG.
    At 17 weeks: Beating heart, yes. Lungs yes, but they are not capable of breathing at this stage, so they are not functioning. Nerve endings, perhaps, but they`re not connected up. EEG, no.

    The brain wiring occurs usually between weeks 22 and 24. It depends on your sources, but I haven`t seen one that goes before 20 weeks.
  203. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 12:50 am
    Yes Crackr, I agree that is an example of homo sapiens.

    Now identify the column containing homo sapiens in this diagram, if you would:



    And no peeking on the internet!
  204. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 12:52 am
    Crakr, I`m not saying they`re a Muslim Fundamentalist site. Quite the opposite, they (like you) are Islamophobes, and (like you) are similarly religious conservatives. Frankly, I don`t care if you call it Islam or Christianity. All the same to me. Link to their "About" page.

    Not my words, theirs.
  205. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 12:54 am
    davymid: I did an image search on Google, I didn`t look at the webpage it came from.

    So I, Just now, Went back and looked Here

    I don`t see `Miss Kelly` stating an agenda, It`s her personal blog. She gave credit for the picture to Lennart Nillson who`s pictures were published in the Telegraph
  206. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 12:55 am
    Awww, while I was posting that you deleted posts. Not fair, Crakr. Not fair. Migratory goalposts.
  207. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 12:59 am
    She gave credit for the picture to Lennart Nillson
    And wouldn`t you know it, clicking Mr Nillson`s name on that blog directs us back to our old friends LifeSiteNews.com again!
    I like it when things come full circle.
  208. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 1:03 am
    almightybob1: Since it seems to be going from simple to more complex, Left to right, I`ll guess the far right. But I wouldn`t be surprised if it was a monkey or something instead.

    What is this anyways ? Final Jeopardy ?
  209. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 1:06 am
    almightybob1: And wouldn`t you know it clicking on a link there takes you to the Telegraph, A well respected newspaper in the UK. So please don`t play dumb.
  210. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 1:11 am
    You are correct, but for the wrong reasons. They`re not in order of complexity, because all the species shown are equivalently complex, highly evolved beings. Which is more or less what the diagram is intended to show - the similarities between all different species.

    They were, from left to right: fish, salamander, tortoise, chicken, pig, cow, rabbit, human.

    I posted it because you posted a picture of what was clearly a member of homo sapiens, so I wanted to point out that it is not always an obvious answer.
  211. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 1:16 am
    almightybob1: The 18 week picture I posted is fairly obvious that it`s a human, I really do not see what other species have to do with it.

    Are you confusing me with Old Ollie`s 3-week statement ?
  212. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 1:21 am
    Nope. Perhaps I could have worded it better.

    Your image-posting carries the implication "because it`s identifiable as human, it has human rights". So I wanted to counter with "if it`s not identifiable as human (because they all look more or less the same in early development), does it not have human rights?"

    Maybe that was not well conveyed.
  213. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 1:23 am
    They`re not in order of complexity, because all the species shown are equivalently complex, highly evolved beings.

    Let`s please not take this into an `evolution` debate. I do however believe that human beings are more complex, Especially in the areas of Abstract Thought, Inteligence, And Creativity.
  214. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 1:28 am
    Let`s please not take this into an `evolution` debate. I do however believe that human beings are more complex, Especially in the areas of Abstract Thought, Inteligence, And Creativity.

    True. Whereas, for example, the cow would trump us in digestion system complexity.
    But you`re right, let`s not go there.
  215. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 1:30 am
    When it`s identifiable as human being, With ultrasound, Mothers are much less likely to abort them. I do believe the scientific discovery of ultrasound, And it`s prolific use in early prenatal care, Has saved millions of babies from being aborted.
  216. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 1:40 am
    Oh, alright then you killjoys. I would SO like to hear Crakr`s stance on evolution and geochronology though, since he lectured me a while back on how Noah`s Flood was plausible based on geological evidence. What with mountain caprocks being marine deposits, and other assorted creationist bullwank. As I pointed out to Crakrjak at the time, was akin to me stating that the slate tiles on my roof are derived from sedimentary rocks (true), but that doesn`t necessarily mean that my house was at one time under f*cking water.

    Carry on, I`m off to bed.
  217. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 3:22 am
    I`m sure there will be many more opportunities davy, don`t worry :P

    When it`s identifiable as human being, With ultrasound, Mothers are much less likely to abort them.

    Probably true, which may explain why >86% in the US:


    And >87% in the UK:


    occur in the first trimester, when the foetus still looks like some sort of crazy prawn.
  218. Profile photo of Vimto
    Vimto Male 40-49
    2852 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 3:23 am
    My dog `smiles` at me. However it doesnt mean he`s happy, normally that he`s thirsty. Just `cause something looks like a smile, doesn`t necessarily mean it is.
  219. Profile photo of Siora
    Siora Male 18-29
    221 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 4:32 am
    "almightybob1: And wouldn`t you know it clicking on a link there takes you to the Telegraph, A well respected newspaper in the UK. So please don`t play dumb."

    Hahaha, you obviously have never read the telegraph right?

    Also, just because something smiles, doesn`t mean it experiences emotions.

    It`s not even independently alive, it relies on it`s mother for survival at that stage, take it out and it dies.
  220. Profile photo of Siora
    Siora Male 18-29
    221 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 4:34 am
    Additionally, most of what CrakrJak says is ruined due to the large amount of bat-poo insane creationist crap that he`s spouted before. If he believes that crap, he`ll believe anything
  221. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 4:43 am
    "Additionally, most of what CrakrJak says is ruined due to the large amount of bat-poo insane creationist crap that he`s spouted before. If he believes that crap, he`ll believe anything"

    Even a broken clock is right twice a day.. I can`t argue with Crakrs last comment. If the ultrasound looks like a human its bound to have an emotional impact. However, logically, if it`s head ain`t wired up yet.. its just gristle.
  222. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 5:37 am
    There is no discussion to be had about abortion. It`s settled law. For abortion opponents not having an abortion themselves is not enough everyone must be forbidden from having an abortion. Republicans have a burning desire to control everyones life from cradle to grave and force people accept what they think is good for them. Reject the madness.
  223. Profile photo of pmarren
    pmarren Male 40-49
    4575 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 6:05 am
    Kill it before it grows.
  224. Profile photo of edana42
    edana42 Female 50-59
    2509 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 6:20 am
    foetus?
  225. Profile photo of b0sanac1
    b0sanac1 Male 18-29
    234 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 6:33 am
    wow that picture actually scared me
  226. Profile photo of Hitaki318
    Hitaki318 Female 13-17
    193 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 6:59 am
    Picture made me shiver. e.e
    When I read this article, I kind of thought how people like to take pictures of trees or other plants with faces on them.
  227. Profile photo of moefreak
    moefreak Female 18-29
    1963 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 7:30 am
    MattPrince, it`s understandable that images like that have an emotional impact. No one is saying that having an abortion is an easy thing to do, or that it`s even technically morally right in all circumstances. However, the morality of the issue is debatable and essentially unresolvable. Thus, the only real issue is the legal one. Making abortions illegal result in the deaths of real, independent, conscious individuals, depriving existing children of mothers (and not saving the fetuses inside those women). Even more children end up in the system or in homes where they are not wanted and potentially mistreated.
  228. Profile photo of SvampeBob
    SvampeBob Male 18-29
    3076 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 7:31 am
    WTF? who cares?
  229. Profile photo of vw
    vw Female 30-39
    406 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 7:39 am
    seriously?
  230. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 7:47 am
    madest: For abortion opponents.... everyone must be forbidden from having an abortion. Republicans have a burning desire to control everyones life from cradle to grave and force people accept what they think is good for them.

    That statement sir is clear evidence you`ve fell off your rocker.

    I know of no Republican stating that abortion should be banned in all cases, Especially those cases involving rape, incest, or the life of the mother.

    As for the 2nd part, The Republicans want you to be in control of yourself with less government telling you what you can and can`t do. `Cradle to grave` describes socialism and that has been ingrained into the democrat`s party platform for decades. Who worked to censor and label music cds, games, and dvds ? Al Gore`s wife Tipper, A democrat. Who are the food nazis telling us what is bad for us to eat and wanting those items taxed to death ? Democrats.
  231. Profile photo of evilmonkey
    evilmonkey Male 18-29
    143 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 7:53 am
    Crakr...there are plenty of republicans that think abortion is wrong in ALL cases..including rape and incest. You`re not looking very hard.
  232. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 8:06 am
    Siora: Perhaps you are unaware of the scientific research and effort taking place to create an artificial womb. Here and Here.

    Someday in the near future the argument about it `being a woman`s body` will be moot, Then what happens to a fetus` human rights ? We haven`t even settled the controversy as it stands right now and this new oncoming ethical dilemma will likely blindside us.

    That is another reason why I`ve suggested a `at heartbeat` limit at around 12 weeks gestation. It establishes fetal human rights at a logical and non-religious time that can be confirmed via doppler ultrasound. It`s a sound compromise legally and morally that would prevent a laboratory from controllin
  233. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 8:09 am
    ....that would prevent a laboratory from controlling the rights of fetal human beings.
  234. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 8:10 am
    evilmonkey: Post examples please, Put up or shut up.
  235. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 8:13 am
    ...and don`t just assume all Catholics politicians are against abortion in all cases. Nancy Pelosi is a democrat, a catholic, and is rabidly for abortion all the way up to the moment of birth.
  236. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 8:23 am
    It`s all gobbeldygook CJ. What if this sonogram showed a highly deformed baby? What if this smile was proof that the child would be in need of medical service from cradle to grave? Abortion needs to be a legal option 100% of the time for any reason. It needs to remain the mothers decision only. Ironically the most vehement anti-abortion retards are middle aged white men who don`t have kids.
  237. Profile photo of I-IS-BORED
    I-IS-BORED Male 18-29
    2419 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 8:27 am
    @CrakrJak
    you need examples?
    Palin
    her only exception is life of the mother, she even said if her own daughter was raped she would be against the abortion
  238. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 8:31 am
    I-IS-BORED: That example does NOT meet the "All cases" accusation evilmonkey put forth.

    Swing and a miss there dude.
  239. Profile photo of I-IS-BORED
    I-IS-BORED Male 18-29
    2419 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 8:37 am
    "I know of no Republican stating that abortion should be banned in all cases, Especially those cases involving rape, incest, or the life of the mother. "

    forgive me if i`m wrong, i seem to recall somebody saying this at some point, could just be something i pulled out of my ass or maybe, just MAYBE it`s what YOU wrote what? minutes ago? please keep up with your own end of a conversation at the very least

    YOU clearly just stated that you know of no republican who is specifically against abortion in cases of rape, incest, OR mother`s life
  240. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 8:38 am
    It`s not a miss. I-IS-BORED is 100% right. There`s lots of others here let me Google that for you... Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Newt Gingrich, Oliver North, Jimmy Swaggert, Richard (I`m not a crook) Nixon, Kim Jong Il, George Bush Jr., Just to name a few. You`re in good company CJ.
  241. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 8:42 am
    madest: It`s obvious you are implacably at the extreme left end of this controversy.

    I was at the far right end end at one time, But I decided the only way to settle this was logically, If your heart stops you die, Therefore when your heart starts you`re alive. It`s simple, elegant, and both legally and morally defensible.

    There are many children born with defects everyday, Many of which no doctor or procedure can determine beforehand, That doesn`t mean they are any less loved or cared for.

    In your world, It seems, You would rather the fetus be killed if it were anything less than perfect. That`s just too heartless and spartanistic man.
  242. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 8:44 am
    "Republicans have a burning desire to control everyones life from cradle to grave and force people accept what they think is good for them."

    Ok I have read some stupid poo before but that one takes the cake. Anyone that thinks the Dems or Reps are anything but masters is a fool of the first order, blind or both. You both dance to the same tune and feed power to a system built to make you a slave.

    I will speak straight about abortion with anyone but such coolaid drinkers are a waste of breath.
  243. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 8:50 am
    I-IS-BORED: Did you read that `All Cases` part ? It`s very specific and I worded it that way intentionally. `All Cases` means without any exception whatsoever, Any example you post where that politician states exceptions fails to meet the criteria of `All Cases`.

  244. Profile photo of I-IS-BORED
    I-IS-BORED Male 18-29
    2419 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 8:53 am
    let me introduce you to your very specific choice of the word `or` as opposed to `and`
  245. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 8:56 am
    madest: You just fail at arguing, Period. That comparison you just made was not only disgusting and insulting, It`s libelous. I`d seek an apology from you, But I know you won`t give it.
  246. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 9:02 am
    I-IS-BORED: I worded my sentence grammatically correct... rape or incest or life of the mother = rape, incest, or life of the mother.

    Not, rape and incest and life of the mother would equal rape, incest, and life of the mother. That would be an extremely rare case for all 3 circumstances to be present at the same time, Now wouldn`t it ?
  247. Profile photo of I-IS-BORED
    I-IS-BORED Male 18-29
    2419 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 9:02 am
    @Crakr
    You asked for examples so he provided some, now you`re angry with his examples? Make up your mind sir. If you wish to get all possible examples and select only the subset you deem to be the `norm` then go open Google yourself, otherwise don`t chastise people for providing you with a service you asked for.
  248. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 9:06 am
    I-IS-BORED: I stated specifically `Republican` examples, He spouted a list of people he deems evil for the sole purpose of trying to libel me, That is not a proper example(s) no matter how you slice it.

  249. Profile photo of I-IS-BORED
    I-IS-BORED Male 18-29
    2419 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 9:08 am
    what you basically said is
    i know no republican who would ban abortion even for rape, incest, or the sake of the life of the mother

    which while preserving the same logic can be split into
    i know no republican who would ban abortion even for rape
    and
    i know no republican who would ban abortion even for incest
    and
    i know no republican who would ban abortion even for the sake of the life of the mother

    as 3 separate cases

    Putting "rape, incest, and life of the mother" in your sentence would only imply all 3 occurring at once if it was worded as `case` not `cases` which clearly makes the distinction of multiple scenarios. If you wish to change what you said, do so as soon as you can after posting, if in the future you change your opinion state that you have done so, but do not argue that you did not say what you said.
  250. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 9:13 am
    As I said before "I know of no Republican stating that abortion should be banned in ALL CASES", That`s because there likely are very very few, If any.

    Furthermore, evilmonkey stated there are plenty of republicans that think abortion is wrong in ALL cases. If there are `Plenty` it should be an easy task to find at least one or two, Right ?

    Like I said, Put up or shut up.
  251. Profile photo of I-IS-BORED
    I-IS-BORED Male 18-29
    2419 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 9:20 am
    Fascism is the extreme right, extreme republican
    Saddam Hussein is identified as a Republican, he lived in the Republican Palace, had Republican Guards, and was funded by... a Republican President!
    Richard Nixon/George Bush (seriously? you need these pointed out?) REPUBLICAN

    need i continue?
  252. Profile photo of I-IS-BORED
    I-IS-BORED Male 18-29
    2419 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 9:23 am
    @CrakrJak
    don`t put a monkey`s words in my mouth, don`t put a monkey`s anything in my mouth for that matter

    and FYI saying i don`t know any in ALL CASES, and i ESPECIALLY don`t know any IN SEPARATE CASES clearly says i don`t know any who are against in all cases, in fact, i don`t know any who are against any individual cases!
  253. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 9:24 am
    I-IS-BORED: I don`t know where you learned the English language from, But you are grammatically wrong and need to re-learn how commas and how the words `and` and `or` are to be used correctly in lists.

    Use the comma when denoting a series. This is a set of three or more "list" items within a sentence. Many writers omit the last comma as "and" is also a connective

    Example: "The basket contained apples, bananas and oranges." Meaning all 3 are present in the basket.

    As opposed to "The basket might contain apples, bananas, or oranges" Which means the basket might contain all 3 or just apples or oranges or bananas alone.
  254. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 9:30 am
    I-IS-BORED: Saddam Hussien belonged to the Bath Party, Look it up. He had no connection whatsoever to the American Republican party.

    North Korea calls itself the `Democratic People`s Republic of Korea`, Do you honestly believe they are democrats or republicans ?

    Dude, Get real.
  255. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 9:31 am
    But I decided the only way to settle this was logically, If your heart stops you die, Therefore when your heart starts you`re alive. It`s simple, elegant, and both legally and morally defensible.

    Yes CJ, but here`s the crux of my point.
    Using the EXACT SAME LOGIC with breathing, the conclusion would be that life begins at birth.

    And again, I could apply that logic to brainwave activity, and arrive at a limit of ~20 weeks.

    There`s no logical reason to choose the heartbeat over breathing or brainwave activity, because all three are equally essential signs of life. If any one of the three stops, the person is dead.
  256. Profile photo of I-IS-BORED
    I-IS-BORED Male 18-29
    2419 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 9:42 am
    @CrakrJak
    yes your basket scenario is correct, but if i say
    "The baskets contained apples, bananas and oranges." Most people can figure out I have several baskets of separate fruit, the sentence that says I have several baskets of mixed fruit would be "Each basket contained apples, bananas and oranges." You made use of a plural `cases` as I already said.

    The world Republican doesn`t mean of the Republican Party of the United States of America. And really? If i gave you 100`s of millions of dollars I think people would see some connection there. If Republicans of the US funded his government, then they must not have issue with the policies of it.
  257. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 9:42 am
    There`s no logical reason to choose the heartbeat over breathing or brainwave activity, because all three are equally essential signs of life. If any one of the three stops, the person is dead.

    Then we need to call an ambulance for I-IS-BORED, His brainwaves are definitely absent. :-)

    The reason to pick heartbeat is this, The heart pumps oxygenated blood throughout the body and is essentially necessary for the other fetal systems to develop properly. If a fetus`s heart never starts beating it will lead to a miscarriage.
  258. Profile photo of I-IS-BORED
    I-IS-BORED Male 18-29
    2419 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 9:45 am
    @almightybob
    except your heart can stop and be restarted without your life being restarted, so heart can`t be used as the standard of whether or not you are alive and many people lack functioning lungs but are still considered alive
  259. Profile photo of idiotfilter
    idiotfilter Male 18-29
    3916 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 9:52 am
    17 weeks? that`s a little over 4 months?

    yeah that seems right...what`s the big deal?

    Pro-choice
  260. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 10:07 am
    "The baskets contained apples, bananas and oranges." Most people can figure out I have several baskets of separate fruit

    Actually no they couldn`t, You could have multiple baskets of all 3 fruits or Separate baskets each containing one of the 3 fruits.

    That is why I used the word `Or`, It defines the list of 3 as separate circumstances that are not dependent upon the other.
  261. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 10:12 am
    I-IS-BORED: whether or not a persons heart can be restarted is not relevant. There are people frozen in cryogenic conditions right now that are dead, Whether or not sometime in the future they might be able to revive them doesn`t make them `alive` right now.
  262. Profile photo of simim23
    simim23 Female 18-29
    1429 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 11:31 am
    Hey, dogs smile when they`re panting, but that doesn`t mean they`re happy.

    Chimps smile as a threat.

    And the natural curvature of the jawline can appear as a smile.

    That fetus is going to haunt my dreams, frickin creepy grimace. O.o
  263. Profile photo of shizzamX
    shizzamX Female 18-29
    2697 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 12:12 pm
    couldn`t they call the whole pregnancy inhumane if the baby can experience emotions at that stage? i mean apparently they`ve seen them look terribly unhappy in there, and being in a cramped uterus filled with fluid sounds awful to me.
  264. Profile photo of shizzamX
    shizzamX Female 18-29
    2697 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 12:13 pm
    also, they spell it "foetus" and that`s weird.
  265. Profile photo of GuardinGnome
    GuardinGnome Male 18-29
    2893 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 12:45 pm
    That`s no smile...........
    IT`S A SPACE STATION.
  266. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 1:39 pm
    Sorry, but the smile is an illusion. Shape of the human jaw is a curve, like the letter u. Seen from head-on, it appears as a straight line, from above, like a smile, from below, a frown.

    Had the ultrasound image been taken from a slightly different angle, the fetus would have appeared to be frowning.
  267. Profile photo of NotTHATbored
    NotTHATbored Female 18-29
    1101 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 2:50 pm
    "The reason to pick heartbeat is this, The heart pumps oxygenated blood throughout the body and is essentially necessary for the other fetal systems to develop properly."

    So what if there is a heart beat? The baby can not survive on it`s own and it would be ridiculous to say that it is any persons legal obligation to keep another `person` alive at the expense of their own body. Period. The end.

    Would I have an abortion? Never. Should the government be able to control womens bodies and force them to carry a baby to term which will drastically effect their social status and economic future? HECK NO. It isn`t the governents body or business. It isn`t any of your business either! Or mine!
  268. Profile photo of maiye
    maiye Female 13-17
    251 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 3:20 pm
    Maybe I`m just a heartless bitch but personaly...I don`t give a damn if it smiles. Hell i don`t give a damn it if breaks into a drating tap dance. If i want to abort the baby, then I`m going to abort the baby. End of discussion.If i can`t finalcialy take care of it...abortion. If I was raped...abortion. If it is a danger to my health...abortion. If I just plain don`t want it...guess what? ABORTION! Like I said, I`m a heartless bitch.
  269. Profile photo of oOFELIXOo
    oOFELIXOo Female 18-29
    177 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 4:04 pm
    Ummm ok so your a heartless bitch, and we care why?
  270. Profile photo of motownc
    motownc Male 30-39
    215 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 4:49 pm
    ffs, you can take a picture of a pig that makes it look like it`s smiling. That doesn`t mean it shouldn`t be bacon.
  271. Profile photo of chesspoly
    chesspoly Male 18-29
    10 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 6:42 pm
    ok, i`ve skimmed this thread from page one. damn...

    i would say just about all arguments from functioning (or lack thereof) organs is completely irrelevant. If a space alien came down to earth and did not breathe air, had no blood, had no nervous system (and thus could not feel pain), i am not therefore justified in killing it. There is a huge difference between being a human and being a person. Look it up.

    Also, if a robot with a mechanical body saw me approaching it with a baseball bat, put up its mechanical arms and said, "Oh dear God no!" I would not destroy that robot. I would consider the robot and alien a person, and thus has a right to life. Biology is irrelevant.

    And seriously, what is it with these "a woman has a right to choose" crap? I think i saw a "back alley abortions hurt women" argument a couple pages back. That`s like the worst argument ever! I still don`t know why people use that.

    Anyways, that`s my
  272. Profile photo of chesspoly
    chesspoly Male 18-29
    10 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 6:44 pm
    cont...

    response to the more philosophically inclined brethren for abortion. And my argument against abortion is simple. Personhood begins at conception. There is no moral difference concerning time of development. I`ll unpack this when i hear responses.

    look forward to replies.
  273. Profile photo of fivezones
    fivezones Male 40-49
    1021 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 7:00 pm
    Cute post. Some of your comments make me ashamed of the human race, though

    CrakrJak: You were more dedicated to this post than I ever saw anyone on IAB before. I don`t have strong feelings about this like you, but I respect your effort.
  274. Profile photo of NotTHATbored
    NotTHATbored Female 18-29
    1101 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 7:42 pm
    @chesspoly Well what if that space alien or robot just wanted to live inside you for a little while because it couldn`t survive on its own? Wouldn`t it be your decision whether or not to let it? What if you said yes but then decided you wanted it out? Would you still have the rights to your body? I think so.

    You can not force someone to nurish, carry, and protect another life at the expense of their own body and life. It`s their decision. Not yours or even the `babys`. The `baby` does not have the right to control it`s mothers body for it`s own benefit only the mother has rights to her body. To bad.
  275. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 7:47 pm
    Yes maiye you are pretty vile all the way around. So what?
  276. Profile photo of PTPete
    PTPete Female 30-39
    1236 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 8:57 pm
    What a lovely idea--but, that is not a smile.
  277. Profile photo of mazda780
    mazda780 Male 18-29
    4 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 9:01 pm
    holy poo
  278. Profile photo of Gleeballs
    Gleeballs Female 18-29
    850 posts
    October 12, 2010 at 11:06 pm
    it looks like a scary demon. i was pro life but now i want a choice to destroy evil monsters like this one.
  279. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    October 13, 2010 at 4:02 am
    fivezones: Thank You. Just trying to find a compromise solution, I know it won`t make everyone happy, But I still believe in the reasoning of `at heartbeat` around 12 weeks.
  280. Profile photo of ericka225
    ericka225 Female 18-29
    219 posts
    October 13, 2010 at 4:09 am
    Im sorry to burst your bubble cracker jack but its not always clean cut rambows and gumdrops. Just because there are some nice good hearted people out there, doesnt mean that there will be homes for all those unwanted kids. I was in foster care for a good part of my life and tho my mom did want meh and i had a home to go to, i have met my share of kids who did not either because their parents didnt want them, or couldnt have them for various reasons and there is not others just waiting around the corner to scoop you up and give you the best life in the world.
  281. Profile photo of ericka225
    ericka225 Female 18-29
    219 posts
    October 13, 2010 at 4:09 am
    The fact of the matter is it is a very long and hard process to adopt someone. You could be a saint and your chances would be slim because you dont meet the standards, so most dont even try and if your above the age of 5 then your chances of getting adoped go down drastically. Im not saying i agree w abortion im not saying i disagree but its not that simple is what i am saying. Sometimes you gotta think about the situation weigh the pros and cons and be willing to think not just about what your opinions are but be willing to listen to others too think if you were in their shoes just sayin...
  282. Profile photo of chesspoly
    chesspoly Male 18-29
    10 posts
    October 13, 2010 at 1:50 pm
    @notthatbored Ok, before I directly respond to your question, would it be fair to assume that you are ceding that the being "inside" me is a person? Because it doesn`t seem like youre denying it. Though you can consistently say yes, it is a person, and ask if I can still abort it. The point I was trying to make with alien and robot was that arguments trying to define personhood from organ functions are irrelevant. I would just like clarification.

    Ok, so is it ok for the alien or robot to live inside me? I would say no, because that is an intrusion. Now, the force of your point (or J.J. Thompson) is that since I said no to the robot, I should say no to the baby. The problem is that the two are not analogous. It`s not the same.

    The robo/ali is tresspassing because it does not belong there. I don`t have a duty to it. But the baby belongs in the womb. That is its natural place. It is not tresspassing.

    Also, by denying the rob/ali, I am merely withhol
  283. Profile photo of chesspoly
    chesspoly Male 18-29
    10 posts
    October 13, 2010 at 1:58 pm
    cont...

    I am merely witholding treatment. In abortion, it`s an active killing. Similar to the distinction in euthanasia between active and passive euthanasia.

    Also, Thompson ignores prima facie duty. Or just moral obligation. the robo/ali are strangers. I have no moral obligation to them if i suddenly found myself awake attatched to them. But a mother has a duty to its child. What if one day, I woke up attatched to my own child? Even if it was artificial, i still have a moral duty to my child. It would not be so if it was a stranger. So my rights concerning individual liberties do not over ride the fundamental right to my childs life.

    now, you say, "You cant force someone to nurish, carry, and protect another life at the expense of their own body and life. It`s their decision. Not yours or even the `babys`. The `baby` does not have the right to control it`s mothers body for it`s own benefit only the mother has rights to her body. To bad. " cont...
  284. Profile photo of chesspoly
    chesspoly Male 18-29
    10 posts
    October 13, 2010 at 2:01 pm
    cont...

    Under this line of reasoning, I could lay my child to rest even after he/she is born. After it is born, I still have the prima facie duty to nurish, carry, and protect this child. Up until they are 18. The burden doesn`t just stop at pregnacy, it continues on for a number of years. but it would be absurd to suggest I still dont have a responsibility towards it.

    So there you have it. Please clarify how you take my alien/robot analogy, respond to the standard three points against thompsons violinist analogy, and respond to my criticism of your reasoning on duty after birth.
  285. Profile photo of NotTHATbored
    NotTHATbored Female 18-29
    1101 posts
    October 13, 2010 at 4:26 pm
    @Chesspoly First off, I do deny that it is a person. In my opinion it has the potential to become a person but it is not yet a person as I would define it.

    Secondly, They don`t actually kill the baby in most non-third world abortions today. They sedate it and remove it from what I understand. This is not killing it, it is just denying it the right to live in the mother`s body without her consent or her "treatment" as you put it. If it could survive on it`s own then it would.

    "But a mother has a duty to its child"

    No. Actually she does not. She can give the child up or drop off the child at any time in most states without legal reprocussion. Now if she chooses to care for it that is another story.

    "Under this line of reasoning, I could lay my child to rest even after he/she is born"

    No under this line of reasoning you could decide that you didn`t want to care for your child even it is born, which as I have prev
  286. Profile photo of NotTHATbored
    NotTHATbored Female 18-29
    1101 posts
    October 13, 2010 at 4:28 pm
    ... previousy explained you can do.
  287. Profile photo of NotTHATbored
    NotTHATbored Female 18-29
    1101 posts
    October 13, 2010 at 4:35 pm
    "But the baby belongs in the womb. That is its natural place."

    Well Posion Ivy has a natural place in your back yard, but you don`t have to let it grow there right? Because it`s your yard. Well it`s the womans body, it`s her yard, and she decides what she wants growing in it. Whether it is natural or not is irrelevant. The relevant issue is whose body is it? Is it the womans or the babies? I believe it is the womans and hence she has the right to decide whether or not she wants something to grow in it, at the expense of it.
  288. Profile photo of JaundiceCake
    JaundiceCake Female 18-29
    674 posts
    October 13, 2010 at 6:32 pm
    Definitely not smiling. Looks like the baby`s face is just gaunt.
  289. Profile photo of mkkloote
    mkkloote Female 18-29
    28 posts
    October 13, 2010 at 7:43 pm
    I`m a nursing student who just finished my OB rotation. The "smile" is just a reflex...fetuses have to learn gross muscle control from the time they transition from embryo to fetus. A fetus is a fetus until it is born...THEN it is a baby...THEN it is a human. Also...babies don`t smile meaningfully until they`re at least 3 months old...until then they`re curious little poop machines...just so everyone knows...
  290. Profile photo of DUDEYEAH
    DUDEYEAH Female 18-29
    19 posts
    October 13, 2010 at 10:49 pm
    by the time this picture was taken this child already had a heartbeat, brainwave activity and was recieving oxygen. the absence of these three thigs are what we use to declare someone dead, shouldnt the opposite determine the start of life?
  291. Profile photo of Prejudiced
    Prejudiced Female 18-29
    250 posts
    October 14, 2010 at 3:58 am
    Fighting about religion on the internet = instant lulz. But seriously, if someone quotes something in the bible like say encouraging to kill people, and then you quote something about love and peace, it does not magically somehow cancel out the previous statement. No, it just shows that the bible is a book filled with contradictions and senselessness.

    Don`t get me wrong, there are some great morals in religion, but there`s an awful lot of bad stuff too.
  292. Profile photo of Prejudiced
    Prejudiced Female 18-29
    250 posts
    October 14, 2010 at 4:03 am
    Also, my comment is directed to discussion afew pages back, just to clarify.
  293. Profile photo of robosnitz
    robosnitz Male 40-49
    2737 posts
    October 14, 2010 at 6:35 am
    What does that brat have to smile about? It hasn`t experienced anything yet.
  294. Profile photo of LameName
    LameName Female 18-29
    238 posts
    October 14, 2010 at 8:55 pm
    She`s carrying an alien! Kill it!
  295. Profile photo of alwaysright
    alwaysright Female 30-39
    27 posts
    October 15, 2010 at 9:04 am
    @DUDEYEAH:

    "by the time this picture was taken this child already had a heartbeat, brainwave activity and was recieving oxygen. the absence of these three thigs are what we use to declare someone dead, shouldnt the opposite determine the start of life?"

    I don`t think there`s much dispute that a foetus is alive or not, it`s more whether I care what happens to it or not.

    (I don`t)
  296. Profile photo of mwest1112
    mwest1112 Female 18-29
    149 posts
    October 20, 2010 at 12:58 pm
    When did we start adding an "o" to the word fetus?
  297. Profile photo of PeonHero
    PeonHero Male 18-29
    5 posts
    February 21, 2011 at 2:02 pm
    That was scary, I can`t wait to see what he/she grows up to become!

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