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Date: 09/08/10 02:02 PM

121 Responses to Retired Bishop John Shelby Spong Speaks The Truth

  1. Profile photo of Pooptart19
    Pooptart19 Male 18-29
    2441 posts
    September 7, 2010 at 9:54 pm
    Link: Retired Bishop John Shelby Spong Speaks The Truth - Hey all you atheists, this may be the one theist you can really get behind.
  2. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36850 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 2:10 pm
    the church doesn`t like you to think. you can`t control thinking people.

    ... stop throwing things at me
  3. Profile photo of SPARTAKITTY
    SPARTAKITTY Female 18-29
    2120 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 2:13 pm
    Religion=sucks
  4. Profile photo of ieatbunnies
    ieatbunnies Male 30-39
    880 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 2:16 pm
    Hell scares the hell out of me...
  5. Profile photo of ggolbez
    ggolbez Male 18-29
    1933 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 2:19 pm
    With his description, why must one even need to have to worship a `god` figure at that point? Was there a creator of all things? If so, where did that creator come from? We can`t understand how everything came into being, but to assume that there is a consciousness that created us, and is watching over us, is rather pompous. I don`t know how the cosmos and life came into being, but I do know it wasn`t by the hand of a deity.
  6. Profile photo of coffeekoneko
    coffeekoneko Female 18-29
    1008 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 2:20 pm
    THANK YOU!
  7. Profile photo of Discomonkey
    Discomonkey Male 13-17
    1361 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 2:23 pm
    1:50 onward is the truest thing i`ve heard about religion in too long
  8. Profile photo of unmercyfuldu
    unmercyfuldu Male 18-29
    762 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 2:24 pm
    From the horse`s mouth. Too bad he is still a horse.
  9. Profile photo of jg0nz
    jg0nz Male 18-29
    113 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 2:29 pm
    >That`s why Gnostic texts were burnt
  10. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 2:30 pm
    For once, a preacher speaking the truth rather than the Truth.
  11. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 2:34 pm
    "I don`t know how the cosmos and life came into being, but I do know it wasn`t by the hand of a deity."

    How exactly do you know this? Were you there? You don`t know the answer, but you know that everyone else is just wrong.

    Good grief.
  12. Profile photo of Fuego
    Fuego Male 40-49
    1287 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 2:41 pm
    I predict this`ll be a long thread. Honesty FTW!
  13. Profile photo of TIMESWORDSMN
    TIMESWORDSMN Male 13-17
    304 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 2:45 pm
    I`ve theorized most of this for years but it`s nice to hear someone people will find credible say it.
  14. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 3:00 pm
    silly people with biased ways!
  15. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 3:03 pm
    This guy obviously lost his way a long time ago and there is good reason he is a `Former` priest. Why he even still bothers to wear the garb is curious.

    Anyways, It`s not about control, It`s about hope, faith, and love.
  16. Profile photo of Vi
    Vi Female 18-29
    52 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 3:05 pm
    Couldn`t have said it any better myself.
  17. Profile photo of Ardenoci
    Ardenoci Male 30-39
    6 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 3:11 pm
    Nice to see theism deftly extracted from the age-old `my religion is best` debate.
  18. Profile photo of rainbowfarts
    rainbowfarts Female 18-29
    798 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 3:12 pm
    @timeswordsmn
    Karl Marx essentially said the same thing way back when, ever heard of the "opiate of the people"
  19. Profile photo of Thdot
    Thdot Male 30-39
    658 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 3:13 pm
    @ CrakrJak. He is a retired bishop. Not a "former" bishop. You obviously know nothing about the man. I don`t see how you can say anything about him.
  20. Profile photo of Siyanor
    Siyanor Male 18-29
    1184 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 3:18 pm
    Thdot, Crakr is irreparably set in his ways. You can`t convince him of anything.
  21. Profile photo of ivorywyne
    ivorywyne Female 40-49
    3 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 3:23 pm
    Dr. Spong is actually a big part of my "enlightening" to atheism. I have a tremendous amount of respect for anyone who can think so logically and still believe in a deity. I`m unable to, but more power to him. A brilliant man.
  22. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 3:27 pm
    Thdot: Found out all I need to know through his own words, The rest is likely a sordid tale.

    He thinks it`s about control, Because he once had control and lost it. He`s either forgotten or didn`t ever learn the Hope, Faith, and Love.

    It`s really sad, I pity him.
  23. Profile photo of cobrakiller
    cobrakiller Male 18-29
    7475 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 3:35 pm
    CrakrJak, christianity hasnt been about faith, hope, and love since jesus himself died.
  24. Profile photo of Webz
    Webz Male 18-29
    542 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 3:43 pm
    As a Christian, I can`t say I agree with everything the man says, however I definitely like the `thinking outside the box` approach to religion. I think far too many religious people feel they understand things and are certain about things that there is simple no way of knowing, like the idea of Heaven and Hell.

    C. S. Lewis had some interesting theories about Hell for anyone interested.
  25. Profile photo of Oscola
    Oscola Male 18-29
    349 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 3:45 pm
    I`m not religious at all and he just put into words exactly why. I believe in God and have my own personal belief systems, but it`s nice to see a Christian with enough humility and wisdom to realise the truth about organised religion.
  26. Profile photo of KPres
    KPres Male 30-39
    309 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 4:00 pm
    " I have a tremendous amount of respect for anyone who can think so logically and still believe in a deity. I`m unable to, but more power to him. A brilliant man."

    Then you should read some more philosophy. There are ideas and conceptions of God that are very logical and rational, and have nothing to do with "the grey haired guy in the sky" that some people imagine God as. The bishop himself hints at such an idea starting @ around 2:13.
  27. Profile photo of Dead-Kittens
    Dead-Kittens Male 30-39
    1128 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 4:02 pm
    That reporter costume that Satan is wearing is awesome. BUrn kids. Burn for yor sins. BUUUURRRNNNNNNn. j/k lol.
  28. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 4:05 pm
    I agree with about 75% of this.
  29. Profile photo of cobrakiller
    cobrakiller Male 18-29
    7475 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 4:16 pm
    baalthazaq, im about right there with you. i agree on most of what he said regarding religion, but not so much on his views on the afterlife. he confused me there a little...are we god?
  30. Profile photo of Skabashas
    Skabashas Male 18-29
    1256 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 4:43 pm
    Wow, what a smart human being. Not saying I agree with everything, but damn, he`s done a whole lot of complex thinking in his life.
  31. Profile photo of crashgirl88
    crashgirl88 Female 18-29
    200 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 4:57 pm
    I think he might be talking about cosmic consciousness and the idea that the universe is within every being and outside of it at the same time.
  32. Profile photo of HunterKiller
    HunterKiller Male 18-29
    363 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 5:03 pm
    bah this guy is a crackpot, theres a lot of contradiction to what he`s saying and well, there you have it. I don`t even think some atheists would agree with this.
  33. Profile photo of thubanstar
    thubanstar Female 50-59
    823 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 5:03 pm
    I really like this guy. Agree with him too.
  34. Profile photo of Samsquanch
    Samsquanch Male 30-39
    792 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 5:14 pm
    Welcome to the wonderful world of panentheism. God exists, but he doesn`t give two craps about what we do on this earth. He doesn`t demand worship, or threaten eternal damnation. He`s an abstract concept of a will far beyond our reasoning, with a level of being that escapes our meager grasps.

    There is life after death, but not in the sense of eternal bliss or eternal damnation, or whatever your church tries to scare you with. It`s an existence of co-consciousness of the universe.
  35. Profile photo of Lolboy
    Lolboy Male 70 & Over
    798 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 5:29 pm
    Hey, at least he`s actually thinking about the background of what he believes in and understands that the Church liked to keep people in line by telling them they will go to hell if they`re "bad". Better than just being like "EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE CONFESS."
  36. Profile photo of Siyanor
    Siyanor Male 18-29
    1184 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 5:34 pm
    "i agree on most of what he said regarding religion, but not so much on his views on the afterlife. he confused me there a little...are we god?"

    I believe he was trying to say that there is a Heaven, but no Hell.
  37. Profile photo of Siyanor
    Siyanor Male 18-29
    1184 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 5:35 pm
    Well, Crakr certainly has a lot of faith...

    But he`s pretty much the epitome of hopelessness and hatred.
  38. Profile photo of aseirinn
    aseirinn Male 70 & Over
    877 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 6:22 pm
    `nothingness` isn`t that bad, you will never see it because you`ll be dead...when your born you dont know that your alive...
  39. Profile photo of Arandanos
    Arandanos Female 18-29
    223 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 6:23 pm
    I like him O_O very much.
  40. Profile photo of NoArms5534
    NoArms5534 Male 18-29
    196 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 7:07 pm
    Wow, an Episcopalian who doesn`t have a clue about the Bible. Surprise, surprise. Episcopalians are one step above agnostic.
  41. Profile photo of rainbowfarts
    rainbowfarts Female 18-29
    798 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 7:09 pm
    @HunterKiller, care to elucidate your reasoning?
  42. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 7:14 pm
    Siyanor: I`ve been fighting hatred and hopelessness before I discovered IAB. There has been much hatred aimed at Christianity here. Most posts here exhibit the extremes when it comes to religion, Spong being one of them, The WBC being the other.

    Neither one represent mainstream Christianity. It`s ridiculous that this Former Bishop Spong still believes he`s a `Christian` when he doesn`t believe any of the fundamentals of Christianity.

    I don`t live with hatred, It`s a useless emotion. I walk in hope because of my faith, Spong has neither.
  43. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 7:49 pm
    Before I found God I used to frequent truck stops. It got to the point that I needed penis in or around my mouth so bad that I would pay them! So this guy`s an idiot... God saved me and he has a plan for me.
  44. Profile photo of Mickets
    Mickets Male 30-39
    246 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 7:51 pm
    NoArms5534: Good point. And the same for many other Christian religions. It`s so easy to be religious, just follow a church, rules, men... But it`s quite hard to read the Bible and follow Christ.

    But to summarize it all: Heaven is for those who repent, who want a relationship with God. Hell is for those who don`t. Because God is good, pure, and can`t coexist with sin.
  45. Profile photo of Siyanor
    Siyanor Male 18-29
    1184 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 8:01 pm
    Perhaps you should fight yourself, then, Crakr, since you are, as I said, the epitome of hopelessness and hatred.
  46. Profile photo of Dav2050
    Dav2050 Male 18-29
    1 post
    September 8, 2010 at 8:09 pm
    CrakrJak what a typical condescending Christian way to talk to someone, "I pity him". Trying to make yourself look good and great when really just spitting on that person. drating hypocrite.
  47. Profile photo of Wizard77
    Wizard77 Male 40-49
    582 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 8:50 pm
    CJ isn`t "full of hate" and I find it funny that those bashing him are all about "tolerance" of others.
  48. Profile photo of dax2009
    dax2009 Female 50-59
    322 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 8:59 pm
    What I don`t understand is why someone stays as a leader or member of a church when they don`t believe what the church teaches. He falls under "hyphocrit".* (tried spelling that 12 different ways, finally gave up)
  49. Profile photo of raikun12
    raikun12 Male 18-29
    586 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 9:34 pm
    hypocrite.
  50. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 9:38 pm
    Ah well, nice try pooptart with this submitted post. I for one was hopeful that it might reconcile the atheists and theists on this site, to find some middle ground. I guess I was too optimistic.

    Also interesting to note that the some are calling Crakrjak (a Christian) a hypocrite, while the Christians are calling Dr. Spong a hypocrite. Just as in religion, you can`t ALL be right...

    And finally;

    Crakrjak said: Most posts here exhibit the extremes when it comes to religion, Spong being one of them, The WBC being the other.
    Dude, this man appears to be many things. Thought-provoking, innovative in his world-view as a theist, humble, tolerant... I would hardly use the word "extremist" in any description for this guy. Just saying.
  51. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 9:40 pm
    Siyanor: Please go troll elsewhere, Your vapidness won`t score you points here.
  52. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 9:46 pm
    davymid: After doing a little research on Spong, I`ve found he`s been a radical since the 1960`s , He`s ordained homosexual priests and been a `pain in the rear` to the Episcopal church for decades.
    He has said that Mary was raped, Jesus never rose, and there are no miracles, That`s not Christian at all. To even call him a `theist` is a spurious claim at best.
  53. Profile photo of Ogen
    Ogen Male 18-29
    441 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 9:54 pm
    @dax2009 he isn`t a hypocrite... you just don`t understand his beliefs.
  54. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 10:00 pm
    davymid: After doing a little research on Spong, I`ve found he`s been a radical since the 1960`s , He`s ordained homosexual priests
    Really now? Wow. Ordaining homosexual priests.

    Let me ask you a blunt black-and-white question Crakr, though I don`t expect an actual direct black-and-white response.

    Who do you think is the more likely to go to Heaven? Spong here or Cindy Jacobs further down this first page of links? I`d be very interested in your answer (not a loaded question, no ambush, just looking for an honest answer).
  55. Profile photo of sleepyjoey
    sleepyjoey Male 18-29
    122 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 10:01 pm
    Loved it
  56. Profile photo of PhantasmFork
    PhantasmFork Male 18-29
    168 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 10:16 pm
    Eh, I`m hungry.
  57. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 10:28 pm
    I`ll fully admit that not all theists are crazy, fundamental and literalist. In fact, most are reasonable people.

    However, that doesn`t make me believe theism holds any water.
  58. Profile photo of EdiMesic
    EdiMesic Male 18-29
    594 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 10:32 pm
    Whoa. This is exactly how I view life and religion.
    Can`t believe a..priest? Would ever share the same
    opinion/way of thinking.
  59. Profile photo of hi2pi
    hi2pi Male 30-39
    736 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 10:43 pm
    A Deist, to be accurate.
    Spong has always rocked.
    Bravo!
  60. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 10:46 pm
    davymid: I`m not their judge, We`ll all have to stand before the Lord and explain ourselves one day. Only God knows what`s in a person`s heart, No one is pure and we`ve all come short of the glory of God.

    This is akin to the question of, "If Hitler was a saved `Christian`, Would he go to heaven?".

    If you believe that Jesus` death paid the debt for everyone`s sins, If only they believe, Then you have to say Yes, Even though it seems abhorrent. BTW, I don`t believe Hitler was a Christian, So don`t go bashing me. It was just a theoretical question.
  61. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 10:50 pm
    davymid: I`m not their judge, We`ll all have to stand before the Lord and explain ourselves one day.
    Yeah, figured you would resort to that. Still, worth the effort of asking what YOU thought. Never mind, maybe next time. Disappointing.
  62. Profile photo of OldSmelly
    OldSmelly Male 30-39
    22 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 11:06 pm
    The idea of Hell, modern terms, came from Dantes Inferno and then became common place in Christianity. Hell, from what I can work out, means "grave"- Sheol in Hebrew and Hades in "Greek".

    http://freetruth.50webs.org/B1a.htm
  63. Profile photo of Calderis
    Calderis Male 18-29
    326 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 11:11 pm
    Wow, this man speaks my mind far better than I could ever try.

    I`ll have to look up some of his stuff.
  64. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 11:19 pm
    davymid: I believe that your question was answered with the example I gave. No one is clairvoyant and no one can look into someone`s heart, But God.

    What I think about a person`s salvation status doesn`t count. I can only testify for myself.

    I believe you were `fishing` for some kind insight into my `thinking`. If the answer wasn`t satisfying then perhaps you worded your question wrong.

    If you had asked me which of them I believed to be preaching more sound `Christian` principles, I`d have answered Cindy Jacobs.
  65. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 11:22 pm
    Crakr, thank you for your honest answer. As I promised, no hidden attack. Just trying to understand you more.
  66. Profile photo of entwife
    entwife Female 18-29
    536 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 11:28 pm
    wow. Loved the part when he said "people don`t need to be `born again`; they need to grow up." Couldn`t have said it better myself.
  67. Profile photo of Lolboy
    Lolboy Male 70 & Over
    798 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 11:34 pm
    "I`m not their judge, We`ll all have to stand before the Lord and explain ourselves one day. Only God knows what`s in a person`s heart, No one is pure and we`ve all come short of the glory of God."

    QUESTION: AVOIDED

    Phew, that was a close one.
  68. Profile photo of AtheistAlien
    AtheistAlien Male 30-39
    809 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 11:46 pm
    F.U.C.K... He almost had it...
  69. Profile photo of WRNKLDTITFUZ
    WRNKLDTITFUZ Male 18-29
    313 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 11:50 pm
    A religion related post on IAB and only three pages of comments? What is going on?
  70. Profile photo of osmandias
    osmandias Male 40-49
    205 posts
    September 8, 2010 at 11:52 pm
    @CrakrJak: Sure, there is more than one aspect to a church. But most churches, not only the catholic in the middle ages, are more about power and control than about anything else.
    Faith, hope and love are part of the christian faith.
    Faith != church.
  71. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 12:05 am
    osmandias: A church is not the building, It`s not the preacher, And it`s not some `big brother` control mechanism. A church is it`s congregation gathering together to commune with one another.

    Again, It`s not about control, It`s Hope, Faith, and Love. The `control` accusation fails, Because churches have survived repression where Christianity is deemed illegal by the state.
  72. Profile photo of Cartunze
    Cartunze Male 60-69
    841 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 12:15 am
    I like this guy. I laughed when the white-haired guy looked at him with that expression and said "wait a minute, Hell is made up"?

    John Shelby Spong nailed it. Organized religion is about power and money
  73. Profile photo of osmandias
    osmandias Male 40-49
    205 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 12:31 am
    CrakrJak: "A church is it`s congregation gathering together to commune with one another."

    And when in this congregation some people suggest to put up mechanisms of control and others don`t hinder them, control becomes an aspect of the church. E.g.: inquisition.

    "The `control` accusation fails, Because churches have survived repression where Christianity is deemed illegal by the state."

    The `control` accusition holds because churches have flourished where they were supported by the state. E.g.: roman catholic church during most of their history.
  74. Profile photo of bryantm3
    bryantm3 Male 18-29
    179 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 12:55 am
    this is what religion is about that many atheists don`t understand. it`s about doing the right thing and loving God, whether you believe in a certain thing or not.
  75. Profile photo of GTrain
    GTrain Male 18-29
    166 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 1:20 am
    Heh.. Spong.
  76. Profile photo of kralmir
    kralmir Male 18-29
    351 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 2:30 am
    "this is what religion is about that many atheists don`t understand. it`s about doing the right thing and loving God, whether you believe in a certain thing or not. "

    mate, a huge amount(read: pretty much all) of your fellow believers don`t agree with you. thats the problem part, if they all thought the same way there wouldn`t be a problem.

  77. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 3:21 am
    @CrakrJak.

    "If you had asked me which of them I believed to be preaching more sound `Christian` principles, I`d have answered Cindy Jacobs."

    Cindy Jacobs is the more heaven-worthy one in your opinion? Really?!
  78. Profile photo of fattpill
    fattpill Male 30-39
    255 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 3:24 am
    Here`s a little secret about christianity. YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY READ THE BIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Bible says to be careful for people who do not confess Jesus Christ to be the son of the Living God. They are not "of" God they are anit-Christ. People and their opinion religion. meaning you have NO basis or foundation to what you believe. they always say, "Durr well I think....." its not about you thinking, it is about you researching and knowing the Bible. If a scientist said well I "Think" that..... the Atheist on this site would tear him a new one. so to speak. Just because he has the "Title" of a priest does NOT make him a Christian. I can get ordained online TODAY.
  79. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 3:25 am
    @CrakrJak.

    "Most posts here exhibit the extremes when it comes to religion, Spong being one of them, The WBC being the other."

    I`m guessing you think of yourself as being pretty middle-ground.

    From my perspective, you`re pretty extreme. You would simply not be "normal" in my country, just as I would not be in yours.
  80. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 3:27 am
    @fattpill.

    "its not about you thinking, it is about you researching and knowing the Bible."

    We`ve always suspected that religion is not about thinking.
  81. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 4:55 am
    Musuko42: Once again, You try and twist words.

    I said she was `preaching more sound `Christian` principles` that does not equal `heaven-worthy` by any stretch.

    To know if either of them were `worthy`, I`d have to have God`s ability to look into their hearts. Since I`m NOT God, I can`t judge them based on what I don`t know. Please, Actually read my posts from time to time instead of just scanning through. It will save a lot of time and misunderstanding on your part.
  82. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 4:58 am
    Musuko42: ...always suspected that religion is not about thinking.

    With your latest fail, Trying to twist my words and barely scanning my comments, You don`t have any room to criticize.
  83. Profile photo of Maps
    Maps Male 18-29
    51 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 5:30 am
    Being born again IS growing up, from a Christian perspective. It`s about developing into someone not controlled by infantile desires but motivated by selflessness.

    Also, "the idea that the truth of God can be bound in... any human book" is not a Christian doctrine whatsoever. The Bible is held by almost all Christians to be the "Word of God". They view it as either God`s words or useless $hit
  84. Profile photo of Maps
    Maps Male 18-29
    51 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 5:41 am
    Also, if you want to know if someone is trying to say, "Your religion is false!" without making atheism/pluralism look scary, listen for these phrases:

    "Life is a startling and wondrous experience"
    "God is *unfolding* through consciousness and self-consciousness"
    "Bla bla bla, the *mystery* of God"

    All of this is to dress up the fact that he is saying, "All of those who adhere to Christianity are wrong". I am an atheist. Must we continue to claim that God is "too big for any one religion"? Either the Christians are right or wrong but let`s not try to discredit them by saying God is too mysterious, wondrous, etc. for humanity to understand.

    Call them liars but stop trying to convince others that life is so special (a "startling and wondrous experience"!!) that religion is useless. You are being fake. You are attacking a religion. If you are going to do it, do not be ashamed. Attack
  85. Profile photo of KellsBells
    KellsBells Female 30-39
    316 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 5:50 am
    As someone who sits on the fence between atheism and agnosticism (and who is still "inspired" by Earth-based traditions), I really liked what Bishop Spong had to say. Too bad more people in religious authority (the ones who actually go to seminary, etc. and NOT the ones who buy their ordainment from the ULC), can`t be open, honest, and free-thinking. Anyone who parrots what other people tell them, rather than sitting and thinking stuff through for themselves, has no place in this discussion, IMO.

    And it`s good to see that all the IAB Extremists (atheists and christians alike) have come out of the woodwork just for this particular flame war. (note sarcasm)
  86. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 5:53 am
    @CrakrJak.

    "I said she was `preaching more sound `Christian` principles` that does not equal `heaven-worthy` by any stretch."

    So you haven`t yet answered the question, which was:

    Which do you think is more likely to get into heaven?

    If you don`t want to answer, or haven`t formed an opinion, that`s fine; but say so. We`re just asking your personal opinion. Why will you not answer?
  87. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 5:56 am
    @CrakrJak:

    "With your latest fail, Trying to twist my words and barely scanning my comments, You don`t have any room to criticize."

    This is the "he who is without sin..." thing, hmm?

    In that case, on what ground do you stand to be casting stones at homosexuals? Are you without sin, CrakrJak?
  88. Profile photo of pmarren
    pmarren Male 40-49
    4575 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 6:11 am
    Well spoken.

    Born again christians (not capitalized on purpose) are a bunch of whacked-out noodle-heads.
  89. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 6:28 am
    Musuko42: If you had even bothered to read my answer you would know it, Instead you prattle in cluelessness.

    You`ve been `throwing stones` at Christians since you arrived here, Pot meet kettle.
  90. Profile photo of DarthJay
    DarthJay Male 30-39
    339 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 7:27 am
    Anybody else have a hard time watching him with that chunk of skin flopping around on his neck like a turkey? Ick.
  91. Profile photo of canusuck
    canusuck Male 30-39
    796 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 7:44 am
    You know, that was the first theist video I could sit through in a long time-very well spoken and it is a shame more religious types aren`t that open to fair analysis of their faiths and allow for their faith to evolve rather than be so absolute
  92. Profile photo of DavidXJ
    DavidXJ Male 30-39
    1106 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 8:04 am
    So, because he agrees with your world view, he`s making sense, even though what he`s saying is blatantly contrary to his religion`s BASIC theology?

    This is the typical, modern day, "everyone is good" B.S. that is permeating our society.
  93. Profile photo of Reignblazer
    Reignblazer Male 18-29
    2334 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 8:08 am
    That`s right old man, destroy it from within *evilface*
  94. Profile photo of canusuck
    canusuck Male 30-39
    796 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 8:31 am
    @ DavidXJ

    Yes, I am athiest but as a non-believer I know what evidence I would require to completely change my views where as religious people stand by the Bible as an actual account of facts and still base their lives/beliefs on it and will never evolve or re-evaluate their "faith", they accept it as fact
  95. Profile photo of Anger
    Anger Male 18-29
    218 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 8:45 am
    maps- if you dont think that life is a special wondrous experience, your doing it wrong
  96. Profile photo of pumba62
    pumba62 Male 40-49
    1018 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 9:30 am
    Oh My this is exactly what I feel and believe, I have been saying this all along.
    Christians,Jews,Muslims....etc etc man made societies that control their followers.
    God is in us! If God is in us then "He" would be part of us and if "He " part of me and you then I am part of you and as such you are no longer my brother or sister but you are me and I am you !!!
    So in essence we are all one.
    If more people believed this then this world would be much less divided and there would be more understanding and love. You kill the Muslim,Jew, christian ...etc etc. you are killing yourself
    We Are our own worst enemy ...but then again, our own worst enemy is us !
    Love me love you love us
  97. Profile photo of username3415
    username3415 Male 18-29
    362 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 9:47 am
    Every one of us is a part of and a copy of the entire whole of the underlying wavelength that turns all energy into matter and gives us conscience. I think that that mysterious force called gravity is nature responding to everyone and everything`s true oneness.
  98. Profile photo of Pooptart19
    Pooptart19 Male 18-29
    2441 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 10:14 am
    Ah well, nice try pooptart with this submitted post. I for one was hopeful that it might reconcile the atheists and theists on this site, to find some middle ground. I guess I was too optimistic.
    Indeed, davymid. I try to build bridges and then everyone goes apesh*t over them. I guess we`ll all have to continue using the ferry for the time being. :/
  99. Profile photo of TKD_Master
    TKD_Master Male 18-29
    4794 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 11:00 am
    YAY! now that guy i can respect. He`s one of the very very few religious people out there that actually THINKS!! Wish i could shake his hand.
  100. Profile photo of SunThunder
    SunThunder Male 18-29
    97 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 11:11 am
    Bishop of what, precisely?
  101. Profile photo of neilyo
    neilyo Male 18-29
    203 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 12:29 pm
    @SunThunder, if you watch for more than 2 seconds, you`ll see right at the start "Fmr Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Newark"...
  102. Profile photo of darkgear6
    darkgear6 Male 70 & Over
    1378 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 12:35 pm
    are you religious people guilty and scared of hell?
  103. Profile photo of MauserTM
    MauserTM Male 18-29
    1222 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 3:45 pm
    I love the fact that the only argument in the other side is that hes not a real bishop
  104. Profile photo of bak5102
    bak5102 Male 18-29
    32 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 4:01 pm
    This guy is a really good example of why I like Episcopalians. Some of the most interesting conversations I`ve had about religion have been with Anglican pastors. They aren`t afraid to think. They don`t get mad if you think. They know we have doubts.

    I saw an ad for an Episcopal church that said "Why is it that the churches that claim to have all the answers don`t let you ask any questions?"

    Another said "He asked for you to think of Him, not to give Him your brain."
  105. Profile photo of SilverThread
    SilverThread Male 30-39
    3431 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 5:20 pm
    I like and agree with his thought process.

    He`s not claiming it to be the truth, but he has faith, I`d love a chance to talk with him.
  106. Profile photo of bak5102
    bak5102 Male 18-29
    32 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 6:25 pm
    He`s from one of those obscure radical new churches ...

    Famous Episcopalians:
    George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, 31 other signers of the Declaration of Independance, 26% of US Presidents, Colin Powell, Sandra Day O`connor, FDR, George H. W. Bush, John McCain, Barry Goldwater, Kay Bailey Hutchison, Thurgood Marshall, Spiro Agnew, Fred Astaire, Robin Williams, Duke Ellington, Natalie Cole, and Florence Nightengale

    And one of their cathedrals:

    Washington National Cathedral in Washington D.C.
  107. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 9, 2010 at 11:39 pm
    bak5102: Nearly all Anglicans have denounced this Former Bishop Spong. He has caused a huge rift in the Episcopal church, To which the British Anglicans have distanced themselves from. As a result many Episcopalians have left the church, 40% in recent years, And now attend services of other denominations.

    He`s preached unity but caused division within his own church, That`s not Christian in anyway.
  108. Profile photo of magoo22
    magoo22 Male 30-39
    660 posts
    September 10, 2010 at 5:39 am
    I like Shelby-Spong`s ideas but have to say I find his books a little boring.
  109. Profile photo of GeFeldz
    GeFeldz Male 18-29
    135 posts
    September 10, 2010 at 7:36 am
    Now that is a real man of god! I don`t necessarily believe in "the God with the capital G", that doesn`t mean i think everything fades to black after death. It`s refreshing to hear a man like Spong talking.
  110. Profile photo of bak5102
    bak5102 Male 18-29
    32 posts
    September 10, 2010 at 9:58 am
    CrakrJak - You`re off in the ozone on this one. The "rift" in the Episcopal church is not because of this guy. He`s controversial to be sure, but he`s still pretty popular with the folks I know. They don`t expect everyone to agree. Controvery leads to discussion. Discussion leads to critical thinking. People who think are scary to others because they can be harder to control. Their views on Christianity are based on that kind of thought, not what whack jobs like us post on the internet.
  111. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    September 10, 2010 at 11:07 am
    @CrakrJak.

    "You`ve been `throwing stones` at Christians since you arrived here, Pot meet kettle."

    But I don`t follow a doctrine that demands I be without sin before I do.

    You do.
  112. Profile photo of Squircifer
    Squircifer Male 40-49
    49 posts
    September 10, 2010 at 11:36 am
    regardless... anyone that believes in an invisible man in the sky needs medication.
  113. Profile photo of Salted_Eggs
    Salted_Eggs Male 18-29
    774 posts
    September 10, 2010 at 2:46 pm
    There needs to be more people that think.
  114. Profile photo of Hat-Trick
    Hat-Trick Male 18-29
    128 posts
    September 10, 2010 at 4:54 pm
    I think there`s still so much we don`t know about the universe and our place in it. Religion, in any form, is just one more way to understanding it all. But like every other idea out there, it`s missing something: certainty. We can BELIEVE. We can HOPE. We can have FAITH.

    But we can`t KNOW. Not yet. The only ones who can tell for certain are dead. And they`re not talking.
  115. Profile photo of GiveChase
    GiveChase Female 18-29
    535 posts
    September 11, 2010 at 3:59 pm
    Well, it`s true. Humanity is pretty pretentious to believe that out of all life forms, we are the most special ones and we are the only ones God cares about.
  116. Profile photo of drgnfire
    drgnfire Male 18-29
    531 posts
    September 11, 2010 at 8:03 pm
    i saw a video about religion and before i went to the comments i knew it was going be 5 pages or more of comments of people trying to argue so ill post this, inb4theflame


  117. Profile photo of BoredFrank
    BoredFrank Male 40-49
    2374 posts
    September 13, 2010 at 8:01 am
    The Flying Spaghetti Monster, may His Noodly Appendages be blessed, is not at all amused by this video!
  118. Profile photo of SLYGUY24
    SLYGUY24 Male 18-29
    6 posts
    September 13, 2010 at 10:13 am
    hes a dumbASS!
  119. Profile photo of idiotfilter
    idiotfilter Male 18-29
    3916 posts
    September 13, 2010 at 11:03 am
    well...that`s new
  120. Profile photo of thecupholder
    thecupholder Female 18-29
    105 posts
    September 15, 2010 at 4:34 pm
    Spoiler alert. If anyone really knows about the Roman Catholics..they don`t believe in hell.
    Some people automatically think that because you`re a part of the catholic faith that you`re just as pushy and mean as say some southern baptist shoving the "good book" down your throat.
    The RCIA classes I have gone to and the bishops and priests I`ve spoken with actually have a very deep and theological outlook on religion. In a catholic class, we even had the opportunity to have a local rabbi teach us of the jewish faith and experience passover as per their traditions.
    It was all a real eye-opener for me,personally.

    If people weren`t so judgemental, and christians weren`t so drating obviously full of themselves, maybe we`d all have something to believe in. But of course, some one has to argue some bullpoo into the ground.
  121. Profile photo of fishgul69
    fishgul69 Female 18-29
    914 posts
    September 25, 2010 at 8:00 pm
    drgfire: ur ah genus. and it`s so true, but I find myself doing it just the same, lol.

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