A Crude Venn Diagram Of The World`s Muslims [Pic]

Submitted by: bryantm3 7 years ago in

and why the American view is not correct...
There are 385 comments:
Male 5,164
Lot of men say similar think also in the "civil" occident,the problem is not to be a muslim or not,is to be a pig or not,this the difference. Btw i`m not muslim(you can call me agnostic),i just think that reducing humans into a list of kinds lead only to conflict,and this in many cases is what our masters of puppets want.
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Male 40,751
I`m reminded of the "uncovered meat" Imam, the head guy for Australia, remember that? He was specifically talking about why Muslim men rape so many women. His reply: "you cannot blame the cat if you leave the meat uncovered".
SO IF I had said this about `blacks` then I`d deserve a lengthy ban, because THAT would be bigoted nonsense. I DO say this about Muslims (outside of North America at least) because that is REALITY.

Piperfawn I know what you`re saying. I have no problem with individual peoples, it`s their group behaviour that troubles me. I`m sure individual Hell`s Angels are really sweet guys, but I don`t have to join the local chapter to know that, as a group, I don`t agree with their actions.
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Male 4,012
I hate debates T_T Been going on for ages about another issue with friends, and now this... ym head feels like exploding...
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Male 5,164
hmm 5Cats i think to that you have to personaly know some muslim before express your heavy opinion influenced by a poll. The research in 90% of cases are partial and commissioned by particular political parts, and in most of cases one say the opposite of the other on the same topic. so my suggestion is... take a pause and come see what "originals" muslims are here in eurasian continent.
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Male 40,751
Thanks piperfawn, I think... lolz!

[quote]And since when surveys show what real people think? - Llave[/quote]
HAHAHAHA!!! Obviously NEVER! That`s why governments and companies spend billions doing poll & survey research, eh? They just like to toss their money away.

@davymid - that`s just my grey hair...
I was mis-using the poll "Views of Al Queda Goals" which, unfortunatly, doesn`t directly ask about infedels.
However: Under #11 is: "Requiring Strict Application of Sharia Law in Every Islamic Country" which shows 53-79% support. Under Sharia it IS NOT a crime to `rape` a woman if she breaks the law: walks around unescorted, shows skin or things like that.
SO 53-79% of muslims in those 4 countries DO, in a way, support that.
I doubt VERY much that any American muslims support such horrific things, but Egypt? Pakistan? Seems they do.
You`ll agree thoguh, 99.99% opposition is a laugher?
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Male 17,511
I created a better Venn diagram. It`s large so it takes a few seconds to load.

Loading...
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Male 12,138
Crakr, fair point. I was only responding directly to 5Cats` specific claims that the majority of muslims supporting murder of civilians and the raping of infidels.

I know he`s probably just trolling for the LOLZ as he would put it, but his completely unsubstantiated comments are entirely out of line. We have a significant muslim readership on IAB: if he were to make similar comments about black people, he`d be kicked off this site faster than you can say "KKK". I`m disinclined to hold double standards, therefore I`m reeling him in.
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Male 17,511
davymid: Although the poll Cajun posted doesn`t support what 5cats said exactly, It does show that a lot of muslims support al-qaeda`s goals, Especially if it involves killing our soldiers.

The propaganda over there about 9/11 must be pretty outrageous too, Considering how many believe the US or Israel perpetrated it. (under the question `identity of the 9/11 attackers`)
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Male 12,138
[quote]I`ve already linked to a survey showing between 50-75% of ALL Muslims agree with the basic principles of terrorism: suicide bombing of civilians, killing civilians, raping infedels & etc. [/quote]
Cats, that really is too far. Your reference came from the report that Cajun linked below, where thousands of muslims across four muslim countries were asked their opinions. To copy-pasta from that report:

"Attacks on Civilians in General: Large majorities in all countries opposes attacks against civilians for political purposes and see them as contrary to Islam."

Funnily enough, they didn`t ask the f*cking abhorrent question in that same poll "are you in favour of raping infidels". Pretty sure the answer would have been similar.

5Cats dude, I seriously suggest you stop talking for a while. Your pointy white hood is starting to show.
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Male 5,164
i`m not talking about this single topic,i`m talking about the general behaviour of him,cause i`ve noticed his way of thinking in many others posts here in IAB. Btw for me is really ok to read differents opinions. I was just sayng to LIave to get used of 5cats answers. In any case doing a pool like that during a war against the arab world (cause the real world perception is this and not that USA is fighting for the freedom of or to punish the evil dictator that have put on power few years ago)can false the results.
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Male 10,855
The polls 5Cats brought is actually part of this report.
Just goes to show just because you support an agenda does not mean the group pushing it or their means.
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Male 5,164
In any case muslims are a really large part of human population and sayng that all are ready to kill you cause is a natural inclination for thems is just a racist and little mind sentence. For sure this kind of behaviour is just strenghten by people that think like that and by the unmotivated wars leaded against a religion.
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Male 56
according to the diagram there are no al queda in the usa. :l
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Male 5,164
Llave
Lol i advice you, you must be used on 5cats comments,evrytime someone talk about war or muslims he is ready to talk about the purity of occidental world in front of the evil of arab world. I think he is a little bit sionist and war fanatic. You just have to be used, after all that he is not so bad. And if you want some pleasure in polemics he is allways ready....one of the best entertainer of IAB if you have the strenght in your ideas you will have lot of fun answering to him.
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Male 17,511
Then come back and we`ll talk about that `99.99%` made up number and the incorrectness of this Venn diagram.
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Male 1,196
i agree with this chart
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Male 17,511
iajukesy: way way way back in the beginning of this post I listed several dozen designated `terror` organizations listed by the FBI and other countries. The overwhelming majority of which were oriented around Islam, Listed all of them I could within the confines of the 1000 character limit of a single comment here.

Sure there are a few Christian and even a few Israeli (arguably Jewish) ones, Fewer than a dozen total.

Also, Their were more Communist, Socialist, and Left-Wing terrorist groups than the other non-muslim religious groups on the designated terror list. But even still, The leftist groups were far fewer in number than the total number of extremist muslim terror groups.

Read what Wiki shows on the list. You can even narrow the scope down to ideology (light blue list on the left side). Then come back an
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Female 49
Sunday, August 29, 2010 7:39:30 AM
of which 99.99% of muslims whole-heartedly disagree with.

I`ve already linked to a survey showing between 50-75% of ALL Muslims agree with the basic principles of terrorism: suicide bombing of civilians, killing civilians, raping infedels & etc.
Your mantra of "muslims don`t believe in terrorism" is full of fail"

YOU fail. Do you know any muslims? And since when surveys show what real people think?

It`s the ignorance of people like you that build controversy.

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Male 40,751
[quote] of which 99.99% of muslims whole-heartedly disagree with.[/quote]
I`ve already linked to a survey showing between 50-75% of ALL Muslims agree with the basic principles of terrorism: suicide bombing of civilians, killing civilians, raping infedels & etc.
Your mantra of "muslims don`t believe in terrorism" is full of fail. Mulit-faith acceptance? Pigs will fly!
Go find my link yourself!~ lolz!
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Male 39
@alley228
and @every mother drater who is too ignorant to form their own thought-out opinions...
IT ISNT A MOSQUE!!!! :O
Also: islam is not what conducted the terrorist attacks - that was a radical, extreme and wrong interpretation of islam, of which 99.99% of muslims whole-heartedly disagree with.
Also: it isn`t on Ground Zero.
Also: The community centre (because that is what it is) is designed to be multi-faith and encourage multi-faith acceptance.

Christ, some people need a punch right in their pooting testes.
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Male 151
Just an FYI... the rest of the world isn`t even repoting on the controvesy. Ergo: No one cares.
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Male 12,138
[quote]fact of the matter Cordoba means Islamic rule in the West. why not even try to change the name? simple, symbolism.[/quote]
Dude, it`s called Park51 now. Has been for some time. Does that make you feel better about having a prayer space in a community centre? The Muslims LOST Cordoba, back in the days when it was about battle with the opposing faith... saying that Cordoba House "means Islamic rule in the West" is kinda ignorant, dude. You sound like one of those nut-jobs you spoke of.

[quote]the same symbolism that does not allow 68% of Americans to be OK with having this built here.[/quote]
Flame away, but I`m pretty sure the majority of white Americans would have liked to keep negro slaves in the backdrop of the civil war. Doesn`t make it right though. Hell, latest polls show that 20% of Americans think Obama is a muslim.

Here`s a f*cking big-ass hint: He`s not.
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Female 238
People need to wake up and realize we have no problem with the idea of them building a mosque. BUILD A FREAKING MOSQUE ANYWHERE YOU WANT. BUT... when it just so HAPPENS to be a few blocks away from where Muslim extremists destroyed one of our beacons of international commerce, and COINCIDENTIALLY want to do so on or near the tenth anniversary of the national tragedy that the country who gave them the freedom to build said mosque must now live with for all time... don`t you think the idea is a bit sour?? `JUSSAYIN.
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Male 549
crakrjak - as sad as it is, we are watching our nation being taken hostage during our generation. by the time they wake up it might be too late. we are right wing "nutjobs" right now they wont concede any ground no matter how strong or infallible your argument is.

fact of the matter Cordoba means Islamic rule in the West. why not even try to change the name? simple, symbolism. the same symbolism that does not allow 68% of Americans to be OK with having this built here.
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Male 1,834
what?
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Male 10,855
Even this "controversy" regarding Glenn Beck is ridiculous. So what if Glenn Beck wants to do show in front of the Lincoln Memorial? At least he decided to do it a couple flights down from where MLK Jr stood.
There are a lot of white guys who consider MLK Jr a hero, me included.
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Male 22
"and why the American view is not correct..."

What the drat is the American view? Anybody who says that has no idea what America is like. You got people running around saying all different things.
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Female 322
CrakrJak = really? that`s interesting
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Male 17,511
dax2009: MLK Jr.`s Niece Alveda King was there, She gave a speech and praised Beck`s rally.
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Male 40,751
@dax2009 You`re welcome!
A little Monty Python never hurt anyone...
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Female 1,172
Apparently it`s not actually going to be a `mosque` but a community centre type thing, like the YMCA. There will however be a floor with a prayer room.
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Female 322
5cats: thanks for the Monty Python link - made my day. (we need a bell)
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Female 322
Glenn Beck is having a rally on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, the same place and on the same day that Martin Luther King gave his `I Have a Dream` speech. Insensitive? in the same way this `whatever` is? I think so.
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Male 10,855
I`m back.
As far as I can tell it`s just a community center.
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Male 9,305
This post was made on 8/27/2010 at 10:03:57 AM

That was close to a full day ago as of this comment.

Has anyone`s opinion changed since then?
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Male 17,511
Cajun247: The name of this place has changed few times as well, It all adds to the confusion. Is it 45-47 Park Place ? Cordoba house ? Park 51 ?

Newsweek

I don`t normally link to Newsweek, But they do try to explain the confusion.
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Male 10,855
I`m off to class see you later.
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Male 10,855
As per the video Baalthazaaq linked here is Imam Rauf in his own words:
[quote]This is a cultural center...to serve the community. To serve both the Muslim community and non-Muslim community.[/quote]
It makes me wonder where got the adjective "Islamic" from.
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Male 166
the red circle is building it.do research on the Imam in charge of the whole thing find out what he thinks of our "muslim" country and its compliance with sharia law.
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Male 17,511


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Male 17,511
Cajun247: First off, Again the Pentagon has an Inter-Faith Center where multiple services are held. It`s not just open space it has pews and a dais. If this Cordoba/Park51/Islamic center was an Inter-Faith Center like the Pentagon has, I don`t believe people would be so opposed to it.

Details as to this `prayer space` have changed a lot since this question first arose. First it was one small prayer room, Then one floor, now Baal says it`s two full floors. I`ve searched, In vain, To find any architectural plans of the inside of it. All we`ve seen, So far, Is a sketch of the outside facade.
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Male 10,855
The prayer space can also be used by anyone CrakrJak. It does not have to be Mosque, Church, Synagogue to serve the respective congregations` needs. It`s just like the prayer space within the pentagon.
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Male 17,511
Cajun247: If that was true then allow a synagogue and church inside the building as well, That would certainly be `building bridges` wouldn`t it ?
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Male 10,855
This building is not some sort of exclusive clubhouse for Muslims. Anyone can use it.
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Male 17,511
5Cats: Not only what you said, But if this Islamic center, Truly is like a YMCA and not a mosque then it wouldn`t solve the supposed overcrowding problem and like a united way youth center it`s location isn`t as critical. Especially in a city with subways, buses, and other mass transit available. Thing is, I think Baal said it wasn`t just one prayer room, But two full floors (To support the idea that it would solve the overcrowding problem), In which case it`s not just an Islamic Center, It`s a mosque. You can`t have it both ways, Either it is or it isn`t. Also, If it isn`t a mosque, Then no ones right to worship is being denied if it were to be moved. Same thing would apply to Christian youth center or Jewish cultural center.
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Male 17,511
davymid: Uhhmmm no davy that was not accusing the mosque itself. It was accusing the group `peaceful tomorrows` and I gave my source as to it`s funding, The tides foundation. I never said Tides or PT was funding the mosque.

I have given references and sources to my claims, I`ve definitely felt hammerd, By Baal, On questions I have no sourced answers for and frankly aren`t even my decision to make. For example, He asked me just how many families objections would be to few to allow this mosque. Not only is that an extremely subjective question it`s speculative as well. There is no consensus on exactly who is a `survivor`, Nor have I seen a poll taken of all or even a majority of the `survivors`. Even If it were only one family offended it would still be causing hurt, But we all know it`s a lot more than one. So excuse me If I substituted larger nationwide poll, But it`s all we have to go by that`s reliable.
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Male 40,751
`the only real problem with this site is that everyone who comes here is SO damn bored... they`ll argue about ANYTHING! - HAHAyousuk`

No we`re NOT!
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Male 40,751
Hey Baatlh! If you`re using comedians to support your arguements, I can too!
Sam Kinison
At least Sam is funny...
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Male 40,751
[quote]im not going to say that crackr and cats didnt make good arguments, just (again in my opinion) it is kind of an ignorant argument[/quote]

Well thank you @zmeace! lolz! But I disagree with the `ignorant` part.
Let me re-state, so clearly that even Baalth can understand it:
1) they have every right to build CH (Cordova House) there
2) 68% of Americans (nationwide) think this is insulting.
3) IF the mission is to `build bridges` WHY insult the people you`re trying to be nice to?
4) Once CH is up and running, it will be nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get rid of should our paranoid worries come to fruition and it becomes a "victory mosque".

The solution: move it to another location. They`re building `from scratch` so any flat ground will work, eh?

Did Baalth REALLY link to John Stewart?? A COMEDIAN!!! L-M-A-O!!!
(this post got messed up, I`m reposting it)
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Male 40,751
[quote]Actually as 5Cats pointed out earlier, turns out it actually DOES include a mosque.[/quote]
That`s right @Cajun, but it`s Baalth who`s playing both sides of the street, not Crackr, eh?
Baalth said in one post they NEED the mosque, house, whatever, because of overcrowding. Then he says repeatedly that it ISN`T a mosque.

Yes Baalth muslims DO goto temple more than Christians and Jews, here`s a lollipop! You just LOVE to change the subject, eh? Then you complain bitterly that others don`t answer YOUR assertions.
Typical.
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Male 5,194
Mods here aren`t bad. You punks should have seen some of the shoebox dictators from the BBS days. Butthurt & banhammer, over and over.
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Male 153
the only real problem with this site is that everyone who comes here is SO damn bored... they`ll argue about ANYTHING!
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Male 582
Just to clear something up, I see Iran referenced as hating America fairly often on this site. I have spent time there, and can tell you from experience that the Iranians on the street are pretty decent to most visitors and dare I say "pro" American. I know this will be a shock to many but it is true.

Their government doesn`t respect the will of the people at all and I can assure you that there will be a fight between them and Israel pretty soon. But as for the citizens themselves, they are by and large very much about a democratic republic and freedom.
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Male 582
@davymid- and don`t sweat the misquote. It sounds like something I would say to get under a smart guys skin. ;)
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Male 107
Actually, that whole muslimhate thing is really scary. Not soon, and they will shout "freedom" while burning muslim-state´s flags. (I mean there IS an upcoming "burn-the-quran-day".)
America, you are better than that, you have been educated.
It just reminds me VERY MUCH of our friends in Iran.
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Male 582
@davymid- First of all I haven`t appealed to anyone for anything. Period. FULL STOP! Yes, I think he came off pushy and overbearing but I didn`t say anything about taking away his mod-ness. I said I thought he came off looking like a bully. I said he took the fun out of it with the endless haranguing. Take a position of power, you will be judged by a higher standard. That is life.

Oh and a "general life suggestion" for you. If you start with "this isn`t a threat" and follow it with "You tread on very thin ice... Very thin ice indeed" at least be up front about it from the get-go.

As for content, I -have- recently made some suggestions. I am fairly new and just started looking for fun stuff I thought would fit in. But time on the site & number of posts doesn`t make you right or wrong. It doest mean you are more important or less so. But thank you for your "general life suggestion". I will give it all the consideration it i
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Male 12,138
Sorry man, it was jawhalerfan, about halfway down this page.

Dammit, it`s almost like us Mods are humans too. Sincerely, sorry dude, I was thinking of someone else. My bad.
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Male 12,138
Wizard - Derp. Major fail on my part. Entirely the wrong person. Sorry, man. Some other asshat accused me of that. Dude, my bad. Busy week.
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Male 582
@davymid- Dude I didn`t post that to you or any one else in any thread at any time. So you are either mistaken or a bald-faced liar. As for your exalted degree, we all stand is awe.

Ill answer your other post shortly.
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Male 2,238
[quote]I have a PhD. A real one. I`m a professional scientist. [/quote]
It`s true. He writes books and everything.

Also Davy, as always, very well said. No homo.
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Male 12,138
Wizard, this is NOT a threat I promise, just an observation. On other websites, insulting Mods, accusing them of bigotry and self-aggrandisement would get you banned. You`ve been a member of this site for less than a year. You seem like an intelligent guy.

While the Mods should be held up to the light to see is they`re pure, I assure you we have no agenda here, beyond, "relieve boredom".

Look, you`ve been a site member for 8 months, made 115 comments, and made zero contribution to the site in terms of submitted content. Just a general life suggestion: Make some social contribution to the village before you launch a campaign to impeach the village mayor, when you just moved in.

You tread on very thin ice when you appeal for a Mod in this house to be demodded. Very thin ice indeed. You didn`t pay to be here, they aren`t getting paid to be here. We do this poo for free, just as you get relieved of boredom for free. Every goddam day.
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Male 12,138
Wizard: [quote]But Baalthazaq has been hammering on CJ at every turn and really just sort of took the fun out of it. Two users tearing into each other is one thing, but Baal is a mod and therefore MUST be held to a higher standard. In my opinion Baalthazaq just kind of looks like a bully. [/quote]
On a previous thread on the same subject, you said of me: "Davy likes to preach that his view is the correct view. yet in his latest ramblings of nothingness, he mistakenly committed the same mistake as those he puts down."

I didn`t retort to that accusation either. I took it on the chin. I COULD have been very offended, what with my ramblings of nothingness and so on. I assure you, I don`t ramble.

Look, don`t mean to be an ass, hell, you won`t believe this, but I have a PhD. A real one. I`m a professional scientist. Weird, huh?

Baal has NOT been hammering at CJ, he`s been asking him to provide his references to his claims. Which is entirely reasonabl
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Male 582
As a mod I am sure you disagree. And I wont try to change your mind and I don`t care what you think of what I posted. I said "in my opinion" and that opinion isn`t changing just because a mod wants to hammer a point (and normal user) to death.
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Male 2,238
[quote]but Baal is a mod and therefore MUST be held to a higher standard.[/quote]
I respectfully disagree. I reckon that users and mods should be held to exactly the same standards. We`re still members of the community, regardless of the colour of our name.

And Baal hardly looks like a bully here. All the man was doing was asking for some evidence and consistency, as I said below.
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Female 322
ok, people, please - get this straight - those of us opposed to building the Cordova/Park51 whatever are not in any way shape or form saying they don`t have a constitutional right to build a `whatever` there. Over and over and over again we have shouted from the rooftops that they most certainly DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO BUILD A`WHATEVER`THERE. We are ASKING them not to in deference to the feelings of the 911 families, and a LOT of Americans who were affected just by the fact that our country, our home was attacked. I still remember what it was like to sit outside by the airport at my work break and know there were no planes flying - our planes were grounded, our hearts were grounded. Have some respect, that`s all. You have the right, you have the right, but you are not right.
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Male 582
Sure we all get excited and call each other idiots and such. We say insensitive stuff and crack wise at the expense of entire segments of the world population. Its part of the fun of the site. Hell I have intentionally started flame wars and had to tell someone that was getting all freaked out that I wasn`t taking it seriously and they shouldn`t either. When you do lock horns on something you are passionate about, at some point you just disagree and call it good and then go to another thread.

But Baalthazaq has been hammering on CJ at every turn and really just sort of took the fun out of it. Two users tearing into each other is one thing, but Baal is a mod and therefore MUST be held to a higher standard. In my opinion Baalthazaq just kind of looks like a bully.
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Male 1,744
i`m not even going to comment on the idiocy of this post...oh wait, i just did didn`t i. Crap
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Male 1,505
Where are the large circles encompassing all the people dancing in the streets when the buildings fell? I know there were a lot of them because I was home that day and I saw them myself aired live on every news channel.
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Male 2,238
[quote]Sorry Trp.
I was referring to previous threads. [/quote]
No apology needed, that`s what I thought you meant.
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Male 12,138
Crackr, you and I were at each other`s throats just this week about the suspension system on a goddam car. There I called you, to your face, a "head-in-the-sand idiot". Similar retorts were fired back. You didn`t accuse me of "Personal Attack" then. In fact, you took the other road and did the very noble thing of reaching out your hand in the Christian spirit of friendship, which I warmly shook (as a hardcore leftist atheist, no less!).

Can I respectfully suggest that we carry on in that spirit of reconciliation? Things got predictably heated here, as they did on that other thread. Accusations of personal attack, on frankly tenuous grounds, leads us to a place that I don`t think any of us want to be in. Especially to a Site Mod. Seriously, if you had any idea just how much screening goes on behind the scenes to make sure our Mods are made of the "Right Stuff". And I assure you, Baal is right stuff.
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Male 12,138
Crakr, Baal.

Been following this thread quietly. I`m atheist, I`m not American, I wasn`t affected by 9/11 in any way so decided to keep my mouth shut - none of my business. But I did follow the discussion on accusation of "Personal Attack" by Crakr, to Baal.

*To Crakr: "Then what about him calling me a slanderer, liar, and a hate monger?": You have made slanderous accusations on the organisation that is funding this mosque/prayer room, specifically accusing them of laundering money for the liberal left, which is major fraud. If you have evidence to back that up (which Baal was asking for) then charges dropped. No harm, no foul.

*To Baal: To interpret Crakr`s comments on the Australian Mosque post being "against mosques", when all he said was that he`d be pissed off at the call to prayer 5 times a day, is kinda tenuous. I`d be pissed off too.
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Male 4,546
Sorry Trp.
I was referring to previous threads.
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Male 48
I bet I wouldn`t be allowed to build an aryan brotherhood prayer temple near a holocaust memorial.
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Male 260
ver the world, giving millions in aid money, sending troops when there are natural disasters, helping smaller countries advance technologically... you all take for granted everything america does for the world, believe me, NONE of the governments of the world are innocent, the only difference is we are the most powerful so you blame all your problems on us and make everything our fault... get over your damn selves
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Male 260
I understand that perfectly, I just do not like the fact that the worship place of a religion that was used as a battle cry for the attackers of the very place the same worship house is being made is being built.

yea... kinda word strangling, but if i had used mosque or muslim in it, the first thing people would do is make me out to be a racist knowing how people are, you should get my point, its not about hating muslims or whatever, its about simple respect for the thousands that died there, you have a whole damn city to build in, and your choosing 2 small blocks (virtually one block) from the place your religion was used as an excuse to kill those people? really, if thats not a slap in the face, i dont know what is. its like criminals who try to rob a house, get hurt while attempting to do so, sue, and then actually win... yea its even more ridiculous then that

and for the last drating time, stop bashing americans and go drat yourself, america helps countries all o
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Male 2,238
So in actuality, disregarding the first two times Baal bought it up, Crakr has mentioned it more than Baal. Certainly not the "several repetitions", as stated earlier.

(2/2)
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Male 2,238
[quote]trp712: Then what about him calling me a sladerer, liar, and a hate monger ?
[/quote]
I thought in that statement Baal was refering to past threads. Correct me if i`m wrong. Like I said before, context is a big deal here. Still working on the assumption it`s past threads.

[quote]What are your accusations?
I made statement X. (Admitted).
I repeatedly made statement X. (I didn`t).
I repeatedly referenced statement X. (I didn`t).
[/quote]
It`s quite interesting who said what in this case, actually. My summary of the last four or five pages, regarding Australian Mosque comments, is this:

Baal misquoted Crakr.
Baal corrected himself.
Baal made mention of it.
Crakr made an unrelated mention of it.
Crakr made an unrelated mention of it.
Baal replied, Crakr replied, I replied, Baal replied, Crakr replied, Crakr replied to himself.

(1/2)
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Male 4,546
I had one loaded question, out of what? 10?

I`m laying off the comments for now until at least a couple of mods have checked in.

I`d still like answers to those questions though.
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Male 17,511
I`m going to bed, I`m tired, G`night everyone.
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Male 17,511
Baalthazaq: So now you are admitting that you tried to `bait` me ?
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Male 4,546
Meh. Look.

What are your accusations?
I made statement X. (Admitted).
I repeatedly made statement X. (I didn`t).
I repeatedly referenced statement X. (I didn`t).

If you consider a lie different from a mistake, I only did the second. Either way, you`ve made one too above.

I made 1 statement, and never repeated it.
I made another statement, which I intended to replace the first.
I used statement 2 to strengthen my position for question 5.

Question 5: "Why claim not to oppose mosque building in NY, when there is evidence for you opposing it being built in Australia?"

That question was actually, as I alluded to earlier, bait for "You should have included my whole comment", at which point I was going to ask you why you ignored the first line of Rauf`s quote when you quoted him.

Bait doesn`t work with comment 1.

there ya go, full disclosure.
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Male 17,511
trp712: Then what about him calling me a sladerer, liar, and a hate monger ?

I haven`t slandered anyone, I`ve not called anyone names, I`m not using `hateful` language, or even cussing.
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Male 2,238
In My Opinion, there has been a breakdown in communication here. Baal made an honest mistake, which he then rectified. Mistake =/= lies, and thus it`s not a personal attack.
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Male 17,511
Baalthazaq: No Baal you continued to say that I wouldn`t want a mosque built anywhere. The two statements are completely different from one another. You made a false accusation, and kept on making it even after I refuted it and asked to go back and look it up.
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Male 10,855
Uhh okay Baal I`m with Crakr on this one.
Now you`re just arguing semantics.
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Male 17,511
Link to the Australian mosque page. Please note that Baal said here, "Also, you were the one who previously claimed "Nobody wants a Mosque in their community" in the thread about the Mosque in Australia."

I only made 1 comment in that entire post, "I pity those people that live nearby having to hear them blaring the call to prayer 5 times a day."



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Male 4,546

I did say:
"Also, you were the one who previously claimed "Nobody wants a Mosque in their community" in the thread about the Mosque in Australia."

I then corrected myself:
""I pity those people that live nearby".
That`s you on the building of the Mosque in Australia."

You then said "I never said the above, It`s a complete lie and he`s repeated that lie several times." (Referring to the first comment, which in retrospect I didn`t disown as obviously as I could have). There is however, no repetition of the first comment, and others noted that I was referencing the second.

(Type in Sydney in the search, only a few links come up).
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Male 17,511
Cajun247: It`s still a lie, He put it in quotes as if that is exactly what I said and he`s repeated that lie several times. That`s a personal attack.

Did I ever once insult Baal, Call him a name, or outright lie on him ? No. I have called him a liar and have proof of it right there.
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Male 2,238
I don`t know what went on in any Australian Mosque thread, nor have I been particularly following this one, so I have no answer to your quoted section. I assume that context is very important in this argument.

However. based on my previous experiences with Baal, i`ve learnt he doesn`t say things that aren`t factually backed up. So unless you can show me this thread, and show me that you said nothing about Aussie Mosques, my previous comment still stands. (I did look for it myself, but couldn`t find it)
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Male 10,855
Even with your defense you might as well say that the church bell ringing is Fitna to all the non-Catholics in the neighborhood.

hehe
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Male 10,855
Perhaps not on the level Baal is referring to though.
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Male 10,855
Even so CrakrJak even AS jest the statement alone indicates some disdain for Muslims. I live not too far away from a church myself and their bells don`t bother me as much.
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Male 17,511
Cajun247: "I pity those people that live nearby having to hear them blaring the call to prayer 5 times a day." Doesn`t equal or say "Nobody wants a Mosque in their community" as Baal quoted.

I live next to a catholic church that rings their bells 3 times a day and it`s annoying. That doesn`t mean I`m anti-catholic or anti-church or catholicaphobic (is that even a word ?)
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Male 17,511
trp712: Baal[quote]...your countless lies, distortions, misinformations, disinformations, slander, hate mongering, and outright hateful things you shout louder and louder.[/quote]

[quote]I`m tired of your bullpoo and I`m not letting you get away with it anymore.[/quote]

[quote]Also, you were the one who previously claimed "Nobody wants a Mosque in their community" in the thread about the Mosque in Australia.[/quote] I never said the above, It`s a complete lie and he`s repeated that lie several times.
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Male 10,855
Here`s the quote again:
"Friday, June 04, 2010 9:20:48 AM
I pity those people that live nearby having to hear them blaring the call to prayer 5 times a day."
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Male 10,855
sry ;)
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Male 10,855
@Baal
Oh I thought it was silly post.
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Male 4,546
Erm... or was right, deleted post?

To be honest, I was hoping you`d catch on to that particular one a lot sooner:
Link.

I`ll warn you in advance "context" answer will provoke another question.
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Male 2,238
Just for clarification and honesty and stuff, Baal did report himself for review.

Personally I don`t think he`s said anything which I would call a personal attack. In My Opinion, he`s just asking for evidence and consistency.
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Male 4,546
Crak:
Ah a question. I`ll play.

It will ease the overcrowding problem because it will have 2 stories of prayer space, which is not a Mosque.

To posit an analogy:
"It`s not a butcher, it`s a baker"
"How will we eat if it isn`t a butcher?"

"It`s not a mosque it`s a prayer space"
"How will it solve overcrowding it it isn`t a mosque".

As for never claiming Rauf is evil:
Bob said: "Feisal Abdul Rauf, doesn`t support terrorism."
"He condemned the attackers, Not the sentiment behind the attacks."

Suggesting that he by proxy supports terrorism.

As I`ve already said my "shots in all directions" were all shots on targets you raised. If you don`t want them shot, don`t raise them until you`ve dealt with the one at hand.

(And Cajun is right about the quote source).
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Male 17,511
I-IS-BORED: What the Pentagon has is an Inter-faith Center, It`s not a synagogue, mosque, or church.
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Male 155
there is a difference between opposing Al Qaeda and opposing Islam. stop the psychopaths with the vest-bombs, and let people practice their faith as they choose.
i`m all for the mosque.
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Female 654
dont quote the constitution.
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Male 17,511
akiiryuuha: If this is only an Islamic center like a YMCA, As has been claimed here, Then moving it doesn`t deny anyone a right to worship, Because it wouldn`t be a mosque.

Besides Obama has made it clear he supports it, So the government won`t be taking any action to move it.
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Male 2,419
@CrakrJak
yes, it will have a room (or i guess a floor that has been made into one large room) that will be used for prayer at the appropriate times of day, but if you call the entire building a mosque for that, the pentagon is a mosque
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Female 69
(cont.) -pas, maybe, but not a crime. And until they themselves commit a crime, there is no reason (or at least not one feasible in court) to deny them their center.

Being Muslim doesn`t make you a terrorist, just like being Christian doesn`t make you a murderer and being Jewish doesn`t make you a theif.
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Female 69
You know, we could just demolish every church/ mosque/ synagogue/ temple/ "holy" place within a mile radius of where the towers stood and say that no one has a right to build there. THAT is a fair action to take because it`s f*cked up for everyone, not just Muslims and their worshipping places.

You absolutely CANNOT deny ANYONE a right to worship, and to build a center of worship, ANYWHERE in the U.S. unless it is denied to ENVERYONE. It is against the Constitution and the rights that this country was founded upon.

I`m not saying that the idea to build a mosque in that area is a good, or smart, idea. It`s in bad taste to decide to build it there, and it`s in bad taste to say that it cannot be built there.

These Americans have a right, as Americans, to build a place of worship there. They`ve committed no crime in deciding they wish to build their mosque (community center/ place of worship/ whatever) in the area that they have chosen. A social faux
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Male 10,855
Actually as 5Cats pointed out earlier, turns out it actually DOES include a mosque.
Here`s the thing though if this building was going to be dedicated to the Jihadists and terrorists (specifically) who attacked that day, then I`d outright oppose this building. That would definitely be a huge slap to face as it would unquestionably dishonor the memory of the victims. Now THAT`S Fitna.
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Male 17,511
Baalthazaq: No, Baal. You raised false accusations, Fired shots in all direction, Built a straw dog, and continue to ask picayune questions.

Baal: Point me to this supposed `Australia mosque` comment. Post a link to the page. I do believe you`ve made an ID error here.
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Male 17,511
Baalthazaq: Now you expect me to defend Fox news or whomever you are firing a shot against now ?

Did I ever quote or source Fox News on this subject ? NO!

All I said was the mosques funding was being hidden and that`s true. The Anti-Defamation League is calling for an investigation into the mosque’s funding and that`s true.

I NEVER said Rauf was Evil, I never said The Corboda people are Evil. In fact, This is the first I`ve typed that word in months. I believe they are misguided and should listen to the 70% of the people that don`t want it built there.

I heard a claim of `overcrowding` at other mosques, Then I hear you claim that this isn`t a mosque. Well if this isn`t a mosque than how the hell can it solve the supposed overcrowding problem ? If it really is just an Islamic center like a YMCA, Then it needn`t be located in Lower Manhattan at all does it ?
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Male 4,546
Crak:
Look, if you raise points, and I hold you to them, that`s not a personal attack in my opinion, but you`ll be happy to know I`m reporting myself for review.

Now, I`ve fairly consistently been attacking your comments. I`ve quoted your comment on the Australia Mosque as evidence that you seem to be opposed to them elsewhere. You have denied it but not given any context to the comment.

Otherwise every one of the questions is still up to be answered and all pertain to comments. I`m questioning your logic here.

That by definition means I`m questioning you. I don`t think that is new to this forum nor ranks as highly as personal attacks.
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Male 806
death? just because these people share the same faith as the select few Muslims in al qaeda are we going to deny them their right to the first amendment? the land was purchased, they were allowed the opportunity to build it, now we are stripping them of that?
second point, from an earlier post from 5cats, you said the imam is a terrorist supporter, can you please tell me where you heard or got this information from, i looked on google, i found nothing about this
i just want to make one last point, if or when the freedom tower is built, a Muslim man or couple or some kind of thing along those lines opens a shop whatever the shop may be, but it happens to be half a block from where ground zero was, will this become a huge deal also? if not, then why wont it? isnt it almost the same thing as the mosque, we dont know what "spooky frightening" things happen inside the mosques behind closed doors, so what happens when the guy goes in the back office. sounds stupid right? i
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Male 10,855
[quote]You`ve tried to paint me as some islamophobe[/quote]
Where was this assertion?
:Still eating popcorn:
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Male 4,546
BigWaFuu:

I really don`t know at this stage. I`m just seeing how long this takes this time. I always end up going to bed once I`m sure any reasonable people can at least see my point and then I end.

This time I`m here to see it through till one of us dies of old age. He`s older than me.
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Male 17,511
Baalthazaq: I NEVER said that I would oppose mosque building in Australia or worldwide. The only mosque I oppose is Cordoba/Park51. You`ve tried to paint me as some islamophobe, I`ve shown you there are muslims I support, Those that wish to reform it.

The claims you make about me are a complete fabrication in your mind, You`ve built a straw dog. You don`t know me at all, Yet claim intimate knowledge of my thinking.

You`ve turned this into a personal attack against me, As a mod you should damn well know that personal attacks are not permitted.
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Male 806
ok my turn to start in this baalthazaq vs crackr and 5cats war
i need to start by saying thank you to baal for in my opinion sticking with what is the right choice and making a great argument, im not going to say that crackr and cats didnt make good arguments, just (again in my opinion) it is kind of an ignorant argument.
ok, so first thing, i will admit, contrary to baal that the new mosque will be built on ground zero land, here is where i disagree, so what? they purchased the land a while ago, as the ongoing supporters argument goes, isnt america about equality? are we living in the middle eastern regions such as iraq, iran, pakistan, etc where the concept of equality is still just an infant and they wont allow temples, churches or anything besides mosques to be built? is this what america wants to turn into? do we want to deny a cultural group their rights as being american citizens just because they are of a different faith being that a select few of this faith caused mass
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Male 4,546
Sigh. Fine. "I don`t trust Jon Stewart".

Fox News: Funding from the Mosque comes from Talal bin Waleed.
Fox News: The Mosque is evil by association.
Demonstratable fact: TBW owns a large portion of Fox.

Explanation of basic logical principles:
If entity X is funded by Y, and this makes them evil.
Then X is a replaceable constant.

Replace X with "Terror Mosque" or with "Fox".

Now, sorry but I gotta it seems:
Question 9) Why only apply it to "Terror Mosque"?
Question 9b) Is it "always insightful to follow the money trail"?

I believe that`s what you said. Not "Sometimes". Yet again Crak, you can`t live up to any one of your own applications and expectations of others. You *only* talk the talk.

Walking the walk is a long way off.
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Male 10,855
@WaFuu

:Munching on popcorn:
Go on!
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Male 1,162
Baalthazaq, how do you drating have the time and energy for this? srsly.
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Male 4,546
Then answer the questions.

And I believe you are engaged in something called "bullpoo".

You bring poo up, time and time again, abandon it when it doesn`t hold up to scrutiny and cry because I`m making you stand by it.

These are things you`ve said. I`m asking you questions about them. I`m hanging every one of them as a sign on your neck, and they`ll still be there the next time a thread like this pops up.

I`m not letting you get away, as I have done in the past, giving you more reasonable doubt than could be considered reasonable, with your countless lies, distortions, misinformations, disinformations, slander, hate mongering, and outright hateful things you shout louder and louder.

Now, less bluster. Answer the questions.
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Male 17,511
Baalthazaq: I`m not going to respond to Jon Stewart`s comedy show. He`s not a serious journalist, He`s a comedian and can make any absurd accusation he wants in the name of comedy. He doesn`t even write his own material, He hires writers to come up with his bullcrap.
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Male 806
wow..."why the american view is not correct", ive been saying this for a really long time and i am an american so before we give ideas to other people, not all americans think this way, just like al qaeda, its a very small percentage of americans that actually think all Muslims are terrorist al qaeda killers
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Male 17,511
Baalthazaq: No Baal, YOU are the one obsessed with numbers and trying to make me somehow accountable for polls and other things I have no control over.

Instead I believe you are now engaged in fitna, aka mischief making. You believe by attempting to pigeon hole me you can somehow win the argument.
You lost the argument when you tried to accuse me of things I never said, Namely that I wouldn`t agree with a mosque built anywhere. A complete lie.

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Male 582
TheTrees- "Why is it considered "American view." That`s not fair for the sane Americans"

Wait, so anyone that doesn`t agree with your point of view is insane?

Well, welcome to the conversation Hitler.
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Male 258
Why is it considered "American view." That`s not fair for the sane Americans
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Male 582
DavioMagnifi said- "...there are plenty of other spots to build it if they really care about repairing American`s views towards the worlds Muslims"

Yep.
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Male 17,511
IamBored29: [quote]A core group of 200 family members directly affected by loss on September 11th[/quote] From the peaceful tomorrows website.

Notice it does NOT say `families that lost family members` or `families that lost loved ones`.

As I stated below, Just what is considered `Loss` ?

Loss of a job, Loss of money, Loss of one`s mental health, Loss of home/apartment ?

A lot of things can be considered `loss` and those things grow the total population of survivors tremendously.
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Male 582
Ruffiana said-" 2 months after this election season, no one will give a poo about this building whether it`s built or not."

I think you may be right. And the true mission of this thing will be seen out one way or another. But by then people will focus on some new crow-bait.
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Male 4,546
"Why are you so determined at me determining the numbers?"

Ah, so the numbers don`t matter?
No, you brought them up.

You don`t interpret the numbers?
No, YOU brought them up.

No one can interpret the numbers?
No, you`ve decided P51 should interpret them the way you say.

So what are you trying to say here?

I refuse to ask my question for a fourth time in another format to a literate grown man. Go back over the posts, and answer it, or concede you can`t.

I`m tired of your bullpoo and I`m not letting you get away with it anymore. If you state something, I`m going to pin it to you.

Your statements, don`t hold up to your own statements, and the longer this goes on, the worse it is going to get for you.

You`ll find it`s pretty easy to get tongue tied when your tongue is quite so forked. Now.

Questions 1 through 7, and the paradox.
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Male 599
Damn Wizard77, you have a way with words.

It isn`t because Americans hate Muslims, its because we (or at least I) would rather not create a mosque (and it is a mosque, or a Muslim centered "community" center) at a spot where the worst act of terrorism by extremist Muslims has been. It is not only in bad taste to build there, but there are plenty of other spots to build it and if they really care about repairing American`s views towards the worlds Muslims they wouldn`t push the idea on them.
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Male 17,511
Baalthazaq: I made it abundantly clear several times now. 2000, 1000, 100, 10, 1 Why are You are so hung up on ME determining the numbers ? It`s not up to me, Geesh. I don`t think we would even be talking about this if it were as few as 1, 10, or even as few as 100.

If you really want to get technical, Just who is considered a `9/11 survivor` ? Are we just talking about those people that lost family members ? Are we talking about the entire population of NYC ? What about those that lost their jobs, lost their investments, or had to seek mental health treatment for PTSD ?

I was speaking of those that lost family members, But can you see how easily the number could grow to millions of people depending on the definition?
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Male 648
I dont expect to change anybody`s mind, i said my piece im going to bed and ignoring this link forever lol besides im sure IAB will upload another one about this islamic center/mosque within the week that we can all foam at the mouth over.
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Male 506
@Wizard77, 2 months after this election season, no one will give a poo about this building whether it`s built or not.
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Male 4,546
Oh, ok, question 7.

Money trails. Lets talk about that now.
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Male 648
"It`s always insightful to follow the money trail, It should be open and clear.

Even the funding of this mosque is being hidden from the light of day."

Again, you stated earlier you were basing your feelings on those of the 9/11 families. I presented you a group of over 200 ppl all families of victims of 9/11 who support the building and you brushed them aside and associated them with money laundering because they received donations from a liberal org. in 2002-2003.

And the funding for the islamic center is coming from FoxNew`s second largest shareholder (Talal) 100 million dollars.
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Male 4,546
Also, I wouldn`t be firing "so many shots" if you didn`t swap strategies every ass kicking you receive.

I`m just repeating questions you`ve neglected.
1) Why is it not a mosque in the pentagon? Why is this center a mosque?
2) Why support an army that doesn`t "turn the other cheek", but decry another for doing the same?
3) Why ignore the families who disagree with you?
4) Why not take congregation size instead of population size?
5) Why claim not to oppose mosque building in NY, when there is evidence for you opposing it being built in Australia?

You don`t want me to take multiple shots? Don`t hold up 50 easy targets. I`ve introduced these questions each in response to new topics you`ve brought up, without responding to previous questions.
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Male 17,511
IamBored29: It`s always insightful to follow the money trail, It should be open and clear.

Even the funding of this mosque is being hidden from the light of day.
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Male 582
Lets accept that this Mosque (or community center or whatever politically correct nomenclature must be used to calm the picayune) is conceived in a spirit of friendship, healing, education and building bridges. Just for a moment lets take that as fact.

The mission is derailed. Build it there now and there will always be a taint to it.

Yes I know its us racist, evil, selfish, ugly, fat, stupid islamophobes and our hate that ruined a thing of purest light and beauty. But that is beside the point. If the true mission is to heal wounds and promote understanding and peace, this site will not do. The contention (from both directions) will forever be a sore spot one way or the other.

So, a choice must be made. Build it anyway (and they have every right to do so) out of spite, or be true to the stated mission and build it elsewhere in a show of good faith and compassion. The decision will reveal the true nature and mission of this endeavor.
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Male 80
Once again the whole of America is blamed for the less than reasonable population.

You ever been to northern California? Not so retarded.
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Male 4,546
They`re one shot Crakr:

You can`t make up your mind what the hell you believe in, what position to hold, or what facts to accept, unless it is against Muslims.

Which of your facts holds up to scrutiny? None.

Fine, lets accept 7/10. Now, answer the frigging question.
Would it be OK to offend 2000 families?
1000?
100?
10?
1?

You moved the data type, but the problem hasn`t changed. It`s just not distance any more, it`s how many are we allowed to offend?

If it`s "none", then we can`t build a Mosque in Mecca.
If it`s "2000" then we`re good to go.
If "it depends on the percentage" then it makes no drating sense. As explained many posts ago.
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Male 17,511
Baalthazaq: You are firing shots in so many different directions all at once, Most people would call that desperation.

7 out of 10 isn`t good enough I guess, So you parse a small and very liberal part of the population of the NYC area to get a result you like. You make confusing and conflicting charges about me that aren`t true. You use UK prayer statistics to try and represent America. You try to blame me, As if I`m somehow manipulating the scope of the polling, Which I have no control over. If there was a poll of all the 9/11 survivors, I`d refer to it. Again, I have no control over who the polling companies call.
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Male 648
"I`m showing that it`s mainly funded by liberals with anti-war and radical ideals that wish to remain nameless, So they launder the money through The Tides Foundation."

It just seems disingenuous to say you`re forming your opinion based on the feelings of 9/11 families, then when a group of 9/11 families happens to disagree with your sentiment, they`re opinion is brushed aside because they`ve received donations from a liberal foundation, and then associated with money laundering for said org.
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Male 4,546
"You also spoke of tolerance. Muslims have a horrible record of non-tolerance when it comes to Jews & Christians in the middle east. America is a much more tolerant nation."

Face it Crak, this poo is why you oppose it. It`s why you come into every other thread on Islam. I`m not saying you haven`t beautifully worked "9/11 families" into your prejudice.

Seriously though, cut the bullpoo. You know it`s not a mosque, you know the funding is the same funding as fox news, you know it ain`t 9/11, you know you oppose Mosques as far away as Australia.

Come out and say it.
Accept every single lie you are told about Muslims and feign shock every time someone says anything about the US.

Decry Islam`s "fight in self defense", jump at "turn the other Cheek", then cheer on America`s Army cos self defense is cool again.

Flip. Flop.
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Male 4,546
Crakr:
"I know of the interfaith chapel in the Pentagon, It`s not a mosque."

"the prayer hall area could be considered the shar`i masjid (mosque)"

Heheh, this is just getting better and better. What makes it not a mosque now?

As always Crak, I`m willing to play by whatever rules you cook up. You just gotta let me know what they are.

Flippity Floppity.
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Male 178
Please don`t call it the " American view"
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Male 17,511
T-Marley: Yes, I know of the interfaith chapel in the Pentagon, It`s not a mosque. It was there before the attack and no one is asking for it`s removal. You also spoke of tolerance. Muslims have a horrible record of non-tolerance when it comes to Jews & Christians in the middle east. America is a much more tolerant nation.

IamBored29: I`m showing that it`s mainly funded by liberals with anti-war and radical ideals that wish to remain nameless, So they launder the money through The Tides Foundation.
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Male 4,546
"Baalthazaq: I believe the 9/11 survivors are likely 70% against/30% for, Same as the polls for the general population."

So we ARE treating it as a consensus body. Excellent. Now answer the paradox I posted about doing exactly that.

Also, we`re treating it as population USA, and not population Manhattan? Odd, why not population world? You see now, you`re not talking about survivors, we`re back to the demographics you decried a few posts ago.

You`re... you`re not John Kerry are you? I`m just noticing a large resemblence to certain footwear he was famous for. You know, flip flops?
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Male 4,546
Also, feel free to fix the Venn diagram and post it with whatever figures you find for American Muslims. But then also compensate by shrinking the Al Qaeda dot.


Here the dot is amplified by 10 to make it show up.
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Male 17,511
Baalthazaq: I believe the 9/11 survivors are likely 70% against/30% for, Same as the polls for the general population.
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Male 602
You know Crakrjak you say it stretches from NYC to the Pentagon, however the Pentagon holds Muslim services in their interfaith chapel every Friday. So, they don`t seem to have a problem with it, why should you?

The first settlers of America left their homes in Europe to live a life of religious freedom and tolerance. This nation was founded on the principles of that freedom and tolerance. Germany was a Christian nation before it turned Pagan mid-war, does that mean we shouldn`t build churches in Normandy, or Britain? As long as we identify our enemies by their religion and not their beliefs, we create far more enemies than we have. The people who are fighting us over there are not Muslims, just the same as a Christian who warps his teachings to trap little girls (or boys) is not a Christian, even if they call themselves that.
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Male 648
"The Tides Foundation made four grants in 2002 and 2003 to Peaceful Tomorrows for a combined total of $34,665.

The Tides Foundation is Left-Wing non-profit.
Because many of these recipient groups are quite radical, the donors often prefer not to have their names publicly linked with the donees. The Tides Foundation, in effect, “launders” the money for them and pass it along to the intended beneficiaries, donors can avoid leaving a “paper trail.” Such contributions are called "donor-advised," or donor-directed, funds."

Call me stupid but you`re going to have to explain to me what that has to do with Peaceful Tommorrows supporting the right to build the islamic center. No sarcasm intended, its late and im just not getting what you`re connecting here
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Male 4,546
sigh, Crak.

"From your wiki"

Yeah. I know. I provided it. Hence "your". I also put up a pertinent question, and demonstrated opinion wasn`t consistent, nor the reaction.

You, as always picked up ONLY on the data points that fit your idea, and none of the others.

I provided both.

Now answer the question I asked in the post.
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Male 4,546
..r enough away.

"The ratio of muslims per mosque is lower than that of Jews per synagogue and Christians per church. Did the math on this many months ago, Before this mosque was even an issue."

Seems like you have a healthy interest in Islam there, certainly not stalkery at all. Did you consider how the buildings were used, or the size of the actual congregations?

Try taking into consideration that Christians go to church Weekly only 38% of the time. Only 69% have been in the last year, and 23% have never been to a Church.

Muslims are far far more likely to.

In the UK:
6.3% of Christians pray daily.
60% of Muslims.

Weekly:
20% Christians.
92% Muslims.

Feed that into your data. Assuming we only take the Muslim figure, in New York, Muslims need at least double the space.

Proper data, not just what suits you.
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Male 17,511
Baal: From your 1st source [quote]Locally, the 9/11 families who weighed in are also divided, though most are bitterly against it. More than 50 people with roots in the Philadelphia region were among the nearly 3,000 killed on Sept. 11.[/quote]

2nd source, Wiki [quote]A group of victims` relatives, 9/11 Families for a Safe & Strong America, called the proposal "a gross insult to the memory of those who were killed on that terrible day"[/quote]

Also in the same Wiki post: [quote]Journalist Stephen Schwartz, Executive Director of the non-profit Center for Islamic Pluralism, said that building the mosque two blocks from Ground Zero is inconsistent with the Sufi philosophy of simplicity of faith and sensitivity towards others and disregards the security of American Muslims. He also criticized what he termed Rauf`s radical and suspect associations.[/quote]
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Male 4,546
Crak:
Which families are we talking about?
These agree with you though.
These don`t though.

So now, how many 9/11 families need to be offended? One? Now you`re back onto "the whole USA" being a no go zone.

Are we treating them as a consensus body? Is it OK for 2 to be offended if it`s out of 5, but if it`s out of 3 we don`t care about those same 2?

Also "I pity those people that live nearby".

That`s you on the building of the Mosque in Australia. Evidently not fa
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Male 17,511
Nucleartoast: First off, There are not 18 million muslims in the USA, That figure is more than twice the actual number.

NYC has roughly 600,000 muslims and over 90 mosques in the NYC area. The ratio of muslims per mosque is lower than that of Jews per synagogue and Christians per church. Did the math on this many months ago, Before this mosque was even an issue.
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Male 582
...sigh.
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Female 257
I thought the point of America was freedom of religion. Theres thousands and thousands of churches but only a handful of mosques. Those 18 million muslim-americans deserve the same rights as everyone else.
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Male 40,751
@Baalth - Rauf says the USA killed 1 million through "their" sanctions, which is a lie, doubly so!
Do our two "lies" cancel out? lolz!
He says that the USA is a terrorist nation, ok? Plain and simple.
I am OF THE OPINION that he`s a schmuck, ok?
If Billy Graham tried to build a `church` there, I`d oppose that too, ok?
I thought you were going to bed, I sure am! Goodnight!
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Male 17,511
The Tides Foundation made four grants in 2002 and 2003 to Peaceful Tomorrows for a combined total of $34,665.

The Tides Foundation is Left-Wing non-profit.
Because many of these recipient groups are quite radical, the donors often prefer not to have their names publicly linked with the donees. The Tides Foundation, in effect, “launders” the money for them and pass it along to the intended beneficiaries, donors can avoid leaving a “paper trail.” Such contributions are called "donor-advised," or donor-directed, funds. Source
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Male 40,751
[quote]Saddam is the one responsible for his citizens starving and dying, As are the corrupt UN officials running the `oil for food` program.[/quote]
Yup CrackrJak! Yet the MSM and Saddam`s supporters (but I repeat myself) chanted it over and over! America killed 1 million children through their cruel embargo!

I remember the news-readers first saying "American Sanctions" then later "American lead sanctions" and finally "American backed sanctions" in reference to the same UN Sanctions! lolz!

So ANYONE who says the USA is a "terrorist nation" for killing 1 million (ficticious) Iraqi civilians is either:
a) goaliejerry
b) a terrorist supporter

(please note that I am in no way suggesting that gj supports terrorism, k-thx!)
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Male 4,546
5Cat:
"Is he saying that AQ is justified for attacking every UN nation"

No, because he isn`t saying AQ is justified in attacking the USA. but keep pushing this lie, I`ve shot it down 5 times already.

You have to know you`re lying at this stage. You cannot actually, logically think you`re telling the truth any more.
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Male 4,290
Anyway, bed.
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Male 4,290
[quote]Osama was not part of the mujaheddin, That America helped.[/quote]
You are wrong, but I can`t be bothered explaining just how wrong, so never mind.

Anyway, it`s detracting from the point, which is: the Imam has spoken out against extremism, not for it. It takes 30 seconds of reading to realise that.
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Male 17,511
5Cats: Actually the sanctions also included an `oil for food` deal that was corrupt, Kofi Annan resigned because of that scandal. Much of the food the UN supplied was not edible and what was edible Saddam hoarded for himself and his army.

Saddam is the one responsible for his citizens starving and dying, As are the corrupt UN officials running the `oil for food` program.
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Male 648
Before anybody jumps on me, im not trying to stir sh*t up but i came across the website and felt it relevant to post.
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Male 648
"As I said before It`s not my sensibilities that count, It`s the survivors sensibilities that count and they say it`s too close. So I support their opinion on it. "

Just to throw this in the mix, the "Sept. 11 Families for Peaceful Tommorrows" supports the right for the islamic center to be built in the old burlington coat factory.

Their website www.peacefultomorrows.org/
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Male 17,511
Baal: You`re trying to equate Manhattan`s population to the 9/11 survivors. Fact is the 9/11 survivors live all over NYC and New Jersey.

Most of the people that used to live within a radius of several blocks around Ground Zero had to leave because of the dust and loss of utilities, They moved away and most all didn`t move back.
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Male 40,751
Aaaand here`s a link to Rauf saying the USA is responsible for "1 million deaths in Iraq" due to the "US lead sanctions".
He`s a whack-job. The Sanctions were UN enforced (when they actually, you know, bothered to enforce them) UN!!! Is he saying that AQ is justified for attacking every UN nation because of the "1 million" deaths? Which, btw, is a laugher!
He`s just another snake-oil salesman, except this time he`s selling justification of Islamic terrorism.
I don`t like him. Or Billy Graham, Swaggart or any similar snake-oil seller.

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Male 17,511
Baalthazaq: Dust particles, No. Large piece of an airplane, YES.

The Pentagon and The Shanksville, PA site are separate parts of Ground Zero, Yes.

Distance away is not my decision to make, Again it`s the 9/11 survivors sensibilities that count. I doubt `next door` would be acceptable by the survivors either.

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Male 17,511
Baal: [quote]Also, you were the one who previously claimed "Nobody wants a Mosque in their community" in the thread about the Mosque in Australia.[/quote]

No, I never typed that. Mistaken identity perhaps ?

[quote]Your "sensibilities" are overwhelmingly biased. [/quote]

As I said before It`s not my sensibilities that count, It`s the survivors sensibilities that count and they say it`s too close. So I support their opinion on it.

[quote]The logic is that you disapprove, you`d disapprove anywhere..[/quote]

If a place could be found that the 9/11 survivors would not be offended, Then who would be against it? Not I.

You`re assuming I`d be against any mosque built in Manhattan, NYC, Or the whole USA. That simply is not true.
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Male 4,546
Ugh, bedtime for me. I`m just going to assume my previous posts have already answered any responses you bring up.
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Male 4,546
You also missed all my drating questions.

Answer them.
So still no number? What about dust particles? What about other planes? Does it stretch from NYC to the Pentagon? what if they built it next door in a building without the landing gear?

You`ve also dropped every non subjective topic we`ve talked about so far.
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Male 17,511
Bob: "This part is because the CIA funded Osama when he was just a little insurgent in Afghanistan, because he was fighting The Communist Menace."

Osama did not work with the CIA, He didn`t fight the Russians, He formed a recruiting organization there (Maktab al-Khidimat) for a few years. The MAK had recruiting offices in Detroit and Brooklyn. After the Russian withdrawal he went back to Saudi Arabia and worked in construction until 1991 when he was expelled for his anti-government activities. He moved to Sudan and was expelled in 1994 for terrorist activities. By that time the Taliban was in full control and then he moved there. Osama was not part of the mujaheddin, That America helped.
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Male 4,546
I posted the same drating pic Crak, demonstrating it wasn`t "half a block".

In fact I still want to know, how do you determine a block? I want a diagram. Seriously.

Also, you were the one who previously claimed "Nobody wants a Mosque in their community" in the thread about the Mosque in Australia.

Your "sensibilities" are overwhelmingly biased.
Manhattan`s sensibilities are mostly in favor.
You wanted it to be moved to an area where MORE people disapprove.

there is no logic here Crakr. The logic is that you disapprove, you`d disapprove anywhere, and you`ve got a picture of a wheel after all other arguments have failed and you`ve been running with it for what? 5 threads now?

"Can easily be seen from..."

FFS. I`ve been to the top of the Burj, you know what you can see from there? The whole drating city.
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Female 322
dragosal - I`ll say again: Judging just by the comments on iab most people who call themselves Christian haven`t read the Bible. Or at least not recently.
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Male 648
@5cats

"There`s a difference between a `new mosque` with a terrorist supporting Imam and foreign money, and an existing mosque of any sort, ok?"

You mean the foreign money from Talal...the 2nd largest shareholder in NewsCorp?
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Male 17,511
Baalthazaq: You want a number, What number I would give doesn`t matter. Poll the survivors of 9/11, It is their sensibilities that are important here. Since the survivors say this mosque is too close, Then it`s too close.

The other mosque was there before 9/11, No one is saying that mosque should be uprooted. Cordoba will be 13 to 15 stories tall, Depending what article you read, Towering over the buildings in the neighborhood and will easily be seen from WTC Plaza where WTC 7 once stood.


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Male 4,546
Also, here is a link to what the Imam said in his own words.

Unsurprisingly, the opposite of what you`re implying. Again.
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Male 215
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Male 4,290
[quote]Because we have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world.[/quote]
Plenty of Americans would agree with that statement. I would agree with that statement about my own country - American and British foreign policy, especially since the turn of the century, has caused a lot of innocent deaths.
It doesn`t mean I support terrorists.

[quote]In fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.[/quote]
This part is because the CIA funded Osama when he was just a little insurgent in Afghanistan, because he was fighting The Communist Menace. The CIA made him into the powerful person he is. That`s just a fact.
Again, it doesn`t mean he agrees with what OBL does, or supports terrorism.
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Male 4,546
Crak:
I`ve been through this bullpoo with others before claiming *I* haven`t condemned X.

After stating I condemned ALL violence against civilians.
"You didn`t say Hamas"
"Ok Hamas too, condemned"
"You didn`t say attacks by Hamas!"
"Ok, that too"
"You didn`t say the sentiment behind the attacks"
"Ok, that too"
"THERE WAS THAT SO HARD?!"
"YES, BECAUSE YOUR GRAMMATICAL REQUIREMENTS BECOME MORE COMPLEX AS THE CONVERSATION MOVES ON"


He has condemned:
Terrorism.
Terrorists.
Violence.
Fanaticism.
Extremism.

And even in your quote, you left out: "I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened"

Do you really think that part is unimportant? REALLY? That is the important part. In case you missed it. Which you did. which is odd, because it`s difficult to miss.
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Male 4,546
5Cat:
1) Manhattan is mostly in favour of Park51 (and the only place that is).
2) They feel that that 68% is the reason they have to build. If 100% DIDN`T oppose it, then that`d be a reason not to bother. The theory is, they were alienated before the project, not because of it.

"there`s a difference between..." agreed, one exists in New York, one exists on some leaflets being handed out.

Crak:
So still no number? What about dust particles? What about other planes? Does it stretch from NYC to the Pentagon? what if they built it next door in a building without the landing gear?
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Male 17,511
almightybob1: he condemned the attackers, Not the sentiment behind the attacks.

From your posted source:

Faisal: Because we have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.
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Male 4,290
The Imam, Feisal Abdul Rauf, doesn`t support terrorism. He spoke out after 9/11 condemning the attacks. You can read a transcript of an interview with him on 9/30/01 here.

One of the first things he says:
"Fanaticism and terrorism have no place in Islam."
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Male 4,546
Look, Muslims ain`t Christians when it comes to prayer.

Look at any picture of Muslims praying. Usually hundreds, if not thousands, if not (in 2 or 3 places) millions of people praying together.

All in unison.

Remember what I said about distractions? Having one dude standing in the middle cacophonous with the rest of the prayer counts.

Most mosques here allow in anybody, that includes any faith, or no faith, at any time when the Mosques aren`t literally bursting at the seams and there are already hundreds queued outside.

However, even under those circumstances, they are allowed to come pray with us. Provided they follow the movements of the congregation, otherwise you`re interfering with the prayer.

(Not to mention several other points like breaking the chain, stopping others from praying inside, etc).
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Male 17,511
Baalthazaq: Ground zero is not exclusive to the footprints of the towers, There was a large debris field. The fact is the building was badly damaged and investigators closed off the building after 9/11 to recover the landing gear for forensic reconstruction.

At a car accident scene, If a wheel or piece of the vehicle flies off into a building, Other vehicle, etc.. where it lands becomes part of the accident scene as well.

The store is part of the debris field and thus part of Ground Zero.
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Male 40,751
There`s a difference between a `new mosque` with a terrorist supporting Imam and foreign money, and an existing mosque of any sort, ok?

I repeat myself again:
IF the reason they`re building this Cordova House is to `build bridges` then WHY alienate 68% of the people you`re trying to reach?
Riddle me this Baalth-man!
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Male 40,751
[quote] but you`re probably off to that rally to demand unisex public toilets[/quote]
Hey HEY! That would be liberals & HIPPIES demanding that, not us rednecks! lolz! (don`t be touchy Baalth! it makes you look insecure, eh?)
But thanks for clearing that up (you too Crackr!) I had thought there were usually completely seperate rooms for men & women, but that`s not the case.

And also I don`t care what they do inside their mosques, I was amazed at the post saying `the prayer room is open to everyone`. In my mind that means that anyone came come PRAY there, like (for example) every Christian church I`ve ever seen!
Heck, I went to a non-instrumental fundamentalist Christian church for 2 years (boarding school). It was there I learned I was a Deist! lolz!
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Male 4,546
Crak, I noticed you pointed that out 5 times.

I don`t think it helps your case. I think the order of events is:

1) You want X to be true.
2) You find any tangible connection to X.
3) You insist 2 fits your point exactly to suit X.

You`ve been asked before what the distance should be, and you`ve always responded with "not that close".

The distance to an actual Mosque (and this one is a Mosque) is about 2000 feet away. This one is 1200ft away.

The 2000 has no complaints. What is the distance, in numbers, rather than feelings and part part photographs?

Finally, you were given a link explaining what a Mosque is, I dare say you`ve been given several. They do not fit the bill.

You found one, (worse) link, vaguely claiming something, and suddenly you win?

No Crak, the other links are better, more numerous, more authoritative. You lose the link war.
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Male 5,189
and why I don`t care.
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Male 17,511
Baalthazaq: I have mentioned many types of muslims here, Including those that want it reformed. Don`t assume that I believe 3/4 of all muslims are wahabis.
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Male 4,546
Crak and Cat:
Depends on the Mosque. The grand mosque has a specific area for women, but they`re not curtained off, they`re right beside the men.

Most mosques have a female prayer section for women for the simple reason there are meant to be no distractions during prayer.

We`re not supposed to have ornate statues or anything in prayer rooms either (it`s part of the reason most mosques have repetitive designs, and any glam is high above the congregation).

I`d explain more, but you`re probably off to that rally to demand unisex public toilets. After all, no matter the reasoning, it`s wrong.

Oh, I almost forgot, we do this every time we chat, it`s only wrong when foreigners do it.
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Male 17,511
inaria: Perhaps you didn`t know but the Burlington Coat Factory building is so close that a piece of the landing gear from one of the planes landed on and fell through all 5 stories of the store, ending up in the basement. (This is the 5th time I`ve had to point this out)

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Male 4,290
[quote]WHY allow domestic violence charges to go anywhere BUT the regular court system? [/quote]
They don`t. If you register a domestic violence complaint with the police, they will investigate and, if there`s enough evidence, prosecute. If you withdraw your complaint, they have to stop this process, and they can`t prosecute. That law is the same for everyone. For certain crimes, if you don`t press charges, the police can`t continue to investigate.

If you repeatedly call the police, but fail to press charges, they will eventually take matters out of your hands and press charges on your behalf. Saying "but we settled this in a Sharia court" will not get you out of it.
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Male 4,546
Wahabis. You mean these Wahabis?

"In 1803 and 1804 the Saudis captured Mecca and Medina and destroyed historical monuments and various holy Muslim sites and shrines, such as the shrine built over the tomb of Fatimah (RA), the daughter of Muhammad(PBUH), and even intended to destroy the grave of Muhammad(PBUH) himself as idolatrous."

You really have to consider that a sect that only existed since the 1800s and only came to prominence in the 1930s is mentioned by you 3/4 of the time you talk about Muslims.
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Male 17,511
A `prayer hall` is a masjid (mosque), Says so right there.
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Male 17,511
In the case of large Islamic centers today, which include a prayer hall, the prayer hall area could be considered the shar`i masjid (mosque), if it has been intended and designated as such. However, the adjacent rooms, such as the lobby, dining hall, children`s room, gymnasium, or offices would be considered as supplementary or extensions of the masjid (mosque) and hence, not part of the shar`i masjid (mosque) area, even though they would be part if the endowment [waqf"> (i.e. not returnable to any one`s ownership), but the rulings would be different for the two as we will highlight below. Source halfway down the page.
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Male 40,751
Oh yeah, there`s a curtian between them! I forgot that part.
But yes I meant sitting side-by-side, not seperated by anything.
How about that Baalth? I`m not being nasty, I really don`t know. Also a Christian or Jew being allowed to join prayers? Sounds far-fetched to me.
Visitng the prayer room? Yeah I can believe it. Gays joining prayers? Kinda doubt it.
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Male 40,751
[quote]the police would have pressed charges and overruled the decision of the Sharia court by putting the offenders in jail.[/quote]
Soooo what exactly is the `point` of allowing these pseudo-courts if they`re going to be over-ruled by the cops?
WHY allow domestic violence charges to go anywhere BUT the regular court system?
If the victem agreed to be bound by the shiria court ruling, wouldn`t that be a `get out of jail free` card for the accused?

Well I`ll defer to your first hand experiences Baalth, I`m on the understanding that women & men cannot pray together unless there`s no other place for the women to go. As far as I know most mosques have seperate prayer areas.

Now since the women often bring the babies along, many Christian churches also have `seperate areas` for wailing infants, lolz!
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Female 1,515
Omg I`m sooo tired of hearing about this >.<

The mosque isn`t on Ground Zero, there`s another mosque that`s closer to the vicinity of ground zero, and you can hardly call Burlington Coat Factory sacred american ground...:P

American`s just need to step back and look at their own constitution. Stop injecting feelings into matters that have nothing to do with 9/11. This is about equality, and if I were the people trying to set up the mosque, I`d definitely do it now, just as a matter of principle. They have every right to build there and feel good about it, just as you (for those of you in this mindset) have the right to be completely hypocritical and intollerant of other people`s freedoms.

Equality is the shi.t yo!
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Male 17,511
Baalthazaq: I think what was really being asked was, Ask a woman if she can pray next to men, Without a curtain or separation between the sexes.
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Male 17,511
"how many `Christians` believe Jesus rose from the dead, which is a central tenant to their so-called faith?"

Most, If not all, Christians believe Jesus` resurrection and own or have immediate access to a bible.

I Wahhabi muslim schools ALL they teach is the koran and the hadif. The students have to memorize it and recall their lessons by rote perfectly. PBS Frontline
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Female 30
Man, hearing you guys talk about this is funny :P
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Male 4,546
"ask if a WOMAN can pray there with the men!"

Probably, considering the grand Mosque in Mecca allows women, the Prophet specifically forbade anyone to stop a woman praying in a Mosque, etc, etc, etc.

Almost all American Mosques allow women and even the few that don`t elsewhere do it for space reasons on Fridays more than anything else.
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Male 638
I think putting the mosque there is as tasteless as putting a Catholic Church next to a center for victims of pedophilia.
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Male 4,290
[quote]almightybob1 did you READ the link?[/quote]
Yes. Did you?

[quote]In the six cases of domestic violence, Siddiqi said the judges ordered the husbands to take anger management classes and mentoring from community elders. There was no further punishment.

In each case, the women subsequently withdrew the complaints they had lodged with the police and the police stopped their investigations.[/quote]
The women withdrew their complaints, thereby crippling the British justice system. If you don`t have a complaint, the CPS can`t prosecute in domestic violence cases. If their complaint had remained, the police would have pressed charges and overruled the decision of the Sharia court by putting the offenders in jail.
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Male 4,546
Cat5:
1) It doesn`t have a mosque in it, it has a prayer room in it. Which is still different.
2) What, the, drat, is half a block? To me, it looks like 3 blocks. I can understand saying it is *A* block away by not counting the first block, or the block it`s in, but half a block? There is at least a whole block in between.

3) They have funding problems and disagreements on budget. Something Park51 doesn`t have.

Admit stupidity, or admit deceit, but there is no excuse for repeating either twice.
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Male 40,751
[quote]it`s a community centre that has a prayer room. It`s open to people of all religions[/quote]
Hahaha! APJ311 you crack me up! Here`s a good example: ask if a WOMAN can pray there with the men! Hahahaha!
A `mosque` IS a `prayer room` and thus is Sacred Ground for Muslims. That`s why they do stuff to not `defile` it. idk what `names` it goes by, Cordoba House is TOO CLOSE. the people of the USA DO NOT WANT! If it`s supposed to `build bridges` it is a total FAIL!

I`m not ignoring gj, his 2 posts after I went back to work were on topic, if devoid of rational thought, eh?
95% certian of what I believe gj? Oooo! you so smart! Or do you use a Ouija board? Chicken entrails? The New York Times? Or some other fairy-tale source of informatuion, hummm?
So ONE nut testafies at a hearing, and ALL arguements you don`t agree with are void? It must be nice `thinking` like a liberal...
also: madest and splurlyburb & Cajun ALL made sense in this thread :)
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Male 94
Controversy is lame but the guy who in charge of the mosque is kind of a dick.
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Male 40,751
[quote]In civil cases only, if both parties consent only. For serious crimes, British law applies.[/quote]
almightybob1 did you READ the link?

[quote]...to those involving domestic violence[/quote]
Um, isn`t domestic violence a SERIOUS crime?
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Male 40,751
[quote]Do people here even realize that a) It`s not a mosque and b) It`s not on Ground Zero?

I suggest you take that into consideration before you make any broad statements because you don`t even know how stupid you`re making yourselves sound. - LemonTarte[/quote]
1) it HAS A MOSQUE IN IT therefore it is "a mosque" duh!
2) it`s HALF A BLOCK from Building 7, which was also destroyed on 9/11 (unless you`re a conspiracy person, eh?) by terrorists.

So do YOU know how stupid you look repeating "it`s not a mosque, it`s not ON ground zero"? Childish? terrorist apologetic? pedantic? mincing? Picky?
It IS a mosque, it`s TOO CLOSE to ground zero, and:
#3) the Christian church also destroyed that day has yet to recieve permission to rebuild. That`s RE-build.
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Male 159
oh how I am sick of this "controversy".
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Female 1,077
i care so little i almost passed out
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Male 1,629
@splurbyburbl
the devil didnt exist in christianity until the middle ages. the church created the concept of the devil and hell to get more asses in the seats and get people to pay money to the church to be forgiven. so any christian that actually knows their own religion shouldnt believe in the devil or hell so i dont know how it would be a contradiction
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Male 2,796
I think all of you reading this should remember one thing.

Sometime relatively soon I think Iran will attack Israel and provoke the US into a war. This will cause World War three and an end to life as we all know it. This will ALL be due to ISLAM and SHARIAH law.

Call me crazy now, but remember I said it when it hits the fan. Just remember.
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Female 798
I wonder how this would play out if this was a mainly Muslim country and Christians crashed into the twin towers and 9 years later a church was being built near ground zero?

Would all these people against it spout about how violent Christianity is? How regardless of how few extremists there are the remainder probably condone it?

I like to believe the religion is generally a peaceful one but neither people who believe this nor people who claim it`s violent truly know unless they were raised within the religion. I really don`t even care if you have a friend that`s Muslim or if you read the Koran cover to cover. Just like Christianity, I`m sure there are parts of the Koran that aren`t enforced or require reading in a certain context.
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Male 648
@Fatninja01

"yawn..."

EXACTLY
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Male 2,796
" how many `Christians` believe Jesus rose from the dead, which is a central tenant to their so-called faith?"

I met a Catholic woman in Sicily that was ver adament that she did not believe in Satan, but she was very devout. I could not help but hold a converation with her over coffee because of such a strange contradiction.
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Male 2,796
"Likewise just because Qur`an tells a Muslim that he can lie to an infidel does not mean he will 100% of the time."

Another truth, however... how would you be able to tell. How do you suppose terrorist sleeper cells in America are able to go unnoticed for so long? Because they eat pork, watch porn, drink alcohol, etc. etc. That is all part of the lie.

But, yes you are right. I know a few practicing Muslims and we get along. Although I would never tell them, they are just as suspect to me because of their behavior and what they say as any other Muslim.
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Male 748
cont.

e basis that the 9/11 terrorists were Muslim.
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Female 322
Judging just by the comments on iab most people who call themselves Christian haven`t read the Bible. Or at least not recently. I would say the same about Muslims and the Koran. In most countries, they don`t even read the Koran in their own language, but have it read to them by an Iman, who then interprets it for them. Kinda like in some cult Christian `churches`. splurbyburbl is correct - those "intolerant" passages are in the Koran. How many Muslims believe them is another thing - how many `Christians` believe Jesus rose from the dead, which is a central tenant to their so-called faith?
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Male 748
Wow, I can`t believe that I`m actually posting a second time on this, as I`m in England as this doesn`t affect me one bit. It`s just that some of the comments have actually kind of infuriated me. :|

"It`s offensive/insulting that it`s on Ground Zero" - it`s not on Ground Zero so stop saying stuff like: "I`m not saying you can`t have mosques but you shouldn`t build it on Ground Zero."

It`s not just a mosque, it`s a community centre that has a prayer room. It`s open to people of all religions. Are people really saying that Muslims being allowed to pray in a place that is open to all is wrong? If so, then that is bigoted and racist. What if Christians had been behind 9/11? Would you protest against a church? If your answer is no but you`re against this `mosque`, then you are a racist hypocrite.

Finally, stop lumping all Muslims in with terrorists. No matter what you say, most Muslims are NOT terrorists. You cannot argue against a mosque on th
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Male 2,796
@AlmightyBob:

"And if we lived by Leviticus 24:16, blasphemy (which certainly includes worshipping another god) would be punishable by stoning. Should we fear Jewish (or indeed Christian) rule? They have their own tribunals too, and capital punishment is still outlawed here 100 years on."

With all due respect, there is not country on earth today that governs by their bible with exception to Vatican City. And, true, they don`t practice their barbaric old testament passages and treat it like law. But you see, that`s the problem. Iran, Pakistan, Bahrain, Kuwait, Afghanistan (and more), all practice Shariah. Some more severely than others. So, to answer your question: No we should not fear Jewish or Christian governance because it is not widely practiced or accepted. But we should fear Shariah because it is widely practiced and accepted.
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Female 322
"Did you know that there`s a church in London that was rebuilt after WWII with German nails and bricks?" Bet they didn`t build a synagogue in Jerusalem with the same...........
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Male 1,399
Possible that there`s some overlap of the red and blue areas? Is there an official membership card for Al Qaeda?

Also, I imagine there are quite a few Al Qaeda sympathizers among the blue, and among the white (both sections).

The guys using ...the bombs and bullets are just the sharp end of the spear.
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Male 2,436
This is garbage. 18 million? Really? I don`t think so.
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Male 10,855
Here`s a HUGE .inconsistency
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Male 10,855
To the second part of my first assertion:
There are three prominent schools on shariah:
Modernist
Traditionalist
Fundementatlist
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Male 17,511
[quote">..not all Muslims agree with Shariah[/quote">

True, But few are actually actively opposed to it.

Here is one Group that is.
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Male 10,855
The Bible`s been used to condemn homosexuality and has passages to that effect. However, there are Christians that detract from such a practice (e.g. the Quakers). Likewise just because Qur`an tells a Muslim that he can lie to an infidel does not mean he will 100% of the time. Heck he/she may think such a practice is just as wrong as lying to a fellow Muslim, it would just be bad for business.
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Male 4,290
[quote]My point being that Shariah law is the whole reason Islam is what it is today. This is because it is not simple politics, it is political and governmental law ordained by Allah himself.[/quote]
Dude, have you read the Bible? Religion is about laws. That`s not news.

[quote]It should be cause for concern for non Muslims because Shariah law would mean death for everyone that is not Muslim. [/quote]
And if we lived by Leviticus 24:16, blasphemy (which certainly includes worshipping another god) would be punishable by stoning. Should we fear Jewish (or indeed Christian) rule? They have their own tribunals too, and capital punishment is still outlawed here 100 years on.
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Female 322
splurbyburbl (i so enjoyed typing that) RIGHT ON! (for comment at 12:55:41 pm)
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Male 2,796
"The problem is splurby is that not all Muslims agree with Shariah or if they do they don`t agree 100% on what it is. If the latter were the case then we would see a glaring consistency among all Muslim-dominated nations."

It would seem that way. We would all be so lucky if that ends up being true. Given the fact that Muhammad made it very clear that the only way to be a true Muslim is to practice Shariah, it brings up very urgent questions on what all the Muslims actually believe.

Islam is an extremely convoluted faith. The fact that they can lie to infedels and the faith itself preaches shariah law as the reigning governance of Islam, makes all Muslims very suspect.
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Male 10,855
The problem is splurby is that not all Muslims agree with Shariah or if they do they don`t agree 100% on what it is. If the latter were the case then we would see a glaring consistency among all Muslim-dominated nations.
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Male 17,511
[quote]...less than 1% of the American populous actually cares about the mosque[/quote]

I`m calling that a `pulled straight outta the ass` statistic.

August 11, 2010 - CNN poll finds 68% of Americans are against building the Cordoba House.
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Male 124
he`s forgetting Hamas, Hezbollah, and countless other jihadist groups. al queda isn`t the only one out there.
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Male 2,796
"However, do you think that would ever be accepted in America?

Irrelevant. We make our own laws."

It is not irrelevant to my point though. My point being that Shariah law is the whole reason Islam is what it is today. This is because it is not simple politics, it is political and governmental law ordained by Allah himself. It was created as a means to govern. The fact that this exists in the UK only means it is gaining a foothold no matter how insignificant. It should be cause for concern for non Muslims because Shariah law would mean death for everyone that is not Muslim.

So it is shariah law by agreement in a few places in the UK, no big deal right? But was that there 50 years ago? How much further do you think it will progress in another 50 years? It is cause for alarm.

All of us "infedels" should be very, very afraid.
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Male 2,552
>Xh8FYHnG
Did you know that there`s a church in London that was rebuilt after WWII with German nails and bricks? They did it to show reconciliation, that both were forgiven the other.

I think that there might be the same thought behind this.

However, I shan`t get to deep into this, as I haven`t read up on the subject. But if it won`t take up the entire Ground Zero (which I doubt), then I see no real problem there.

Oh, and
>Angelmassb
It said that it wasn`t scientific. It`s not in any way made to be exact, just to give you an idea and prove a point.
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Male 225
1,570,000,000
versus
10,000

.............
10 thousand is alot smaller
but nice job creator lol even tho ur forgetting some other crazy sects of islam, islam is still badass. the most intelligent person to have lived and published things in the past 70 ish years is muslim imo. he was executed by saddam.
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Male 25,416
yawn...
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Male 10,338
@mcfudge:

68%. My bad.
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Male 15,510
Sources please
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Male 36
The problem with the diagram is that you have to decide whether the driving force and purpose behind the GZ mosque is all those innocent Muslims (whose existence most of the opponents do not dispute) or whether it is foreign and domestic proxies and agents of cultural and political jihad. If the former, fine, but why insist on that location that contains aircraft parts (making it part of GZ), and why break ground on 9/11? Which indicates the truth, that the latter situation is the case. If you doubt it, see the in-depth examination on the blog Atlas Shrugs.
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Male 4,290
[quote]However, do you think that would ever be accepted in America?[/quote]
Irrelevant. We make our own laws.
[quote]Essentially, those special courts are providing a double standard in laws.[/quote]
In civil cases only, if both parties consent only. For serious crimes, British law applies. If the person feels they are getting an unfair deal, they retract consent and British law applies.
[quote]If it between Muslims, then they get different treatment than everyone else under Shariah.[/quote]
Only if they consent to that different treatment. Think of it as waiving a right, like you don`t have to have a lawyer if you don`t want.
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Male 2,893
I`m colorblind so I can`t tell that that`s a red circle soooooo.
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Male 2,796
"If you`re talking about the tribunals, we`ve had Jewish tribunals doing the same for over a hundred years. It`s only binding if both parties agree to let it be binding, so it`s only useful within the Jewish or Muslim population. A Muslim man could not take a non-Muslim to Sharia court."

You are right. For now that is how it stands. However, do you think that would ever be accepted in America? Essentially, those special courts are providing a double standard in laws. If it between Muslims, then they get different treatment than everyone else under Shariah. The law should be the same for everyone in that particular country.

My opinion
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Male 2,441
And also only two blocks, a tenth of a mile like I said.
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Male 4,290
If you`re talking about the tribunals, we`ve had Jewish tribunals doing the same for over a hundred years. It`s only binding if both parties agree to let it be binding, so it`s only useful within the Jewish or Muslim population. A Muslim man could not take a non-Muslim to Sharia court.
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Male 2,796
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Male 2,441
LemonTarte: Sorry you are such a stickler for the little things, it has a PRAYER ROOM.... and it`s not an insult to America?. I could care less if it is built or not. Stopping it would be against our basic first amendment rights. Isn`t every American entitled to those?
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Male 537
"70%"

70% of the 310,000,000 Americans care about this mosque? Sources please?
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Male 537
"Arguably IAB`s posts are probably only 1% serious subjects like this. So, just because this is something you don`t like you want to compare the entire site to Fox?

Interesting."

Easy there Cletus, step away from the internet.
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Male 10,338
"less than 1% of the American populous actually cares about the mosque"

70%.
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Male 4,290
[quote]Shariah law is already being implemented on small scales in certain places in the UK.[/quote]
Where?
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Male 590
pootiest diagram ever. A - not all muslims who hate America are al-queada, because I`d say the number of anti-American muslims are much, much greater than that tiny red circle. B - it`s still an insult to put a "community center" (let`s just dratin call it a mosque please) there and the builders know exactly what they are doing.It has nothing to do with tolerance. All they are creating is suspicion and resentment and rightfully so.

I don`t support making it illegal for them to build there but I give that place a week before someone burns it down.
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Male 10,855
How are the verses from the Qur`an any different? It`s only a minority who say it supports violence and an even smaller group that act on such a belief.
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Female 1,441
It does not have a "mosque" within it because that would be impossible. It has a PRAYER ROOM in it though. And it`s blocks away from Ground Zero. So some people want to practice their religion in a community center and this is an insult to America now?

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Male 2,796
"Why the hell is this considered the "American view"? less than 1% of the American populous actually cares about the mosque, this one percent includes the supporters AND rush Limbah`s sheep. Screw you IAB, you`re about as fair and balanced as FOX."

Arguably IAB`s posts are probably only 1% serious subjects like this. So, just because this is something you don`t like you want to compare the entire site to Fox?

Interesting.
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Male 537
Why the hell is this considered the "American view"? less than 1% of the American populous actually cares about the mosque, this one percent includes the supporters AND rush Limbah`s sheep. Screw you IAB, you`re about as fair and balanced as FOX.
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Female 2,509
sooooo with this logic if there are .31 billion americans with X amount being caucasian americans out of Y amount of total caucasians worldwide with the red dot being members of radical white supremist - you can`t hate on the rest of the caucasian population. correct?
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Male 2,441
Anyways I don`t care either way, I live in Chicago. This is Americans going against our own constitution . Let`s just do away with religion and never have this problem. Create your own faith..
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Male 2,796
Do any of you that decided I `need to be shot in the head" ever bother to do a little research on these matters?

Shariah law is already being implemented on small scales in certain places in the UK.
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Male 17,511
Cajun: Did you read the whole thing or just scan it? Because It explains why they don`t apply and are not `open-ended commands` but are stories of history.
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Female 9
I`m just upset that they haven`t kept their promises for the Freedom Tower. I really don`t care about the mosque. Go for it, I say.
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Male 2,441
@ LemonTarte:

How about before you come onto this post trying to be a smart ass you check your facts first. They are building a community center that will have a mosque within it and it`s a tenth of a mile from ground zero. Of course not on it...
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Male 10,855
@FeelTheRide

Doesn`t mean I`m going to obstruct people from practising it.
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Male 2,796
Qur`an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can “compel” a Muslim to tell a lie.

Qur`an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to “guard themselves.”



Qur`an (2:225) - “Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts”

Qur`an (3:54) - “And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.” The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means deceit. If Allah is deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same.
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Male 247
@Crucible:

Sshhh! The grownups are talking...
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Male 10,855
@CrakrJak
The `debate` one.
Click ReligionofPeace and then click `Old Testament Verses of Violence`.
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Male 167
When I was in elementary school, I was good friends with this muslim kid and we got along great... Then one day I happened to mention that I was jewish and he said "Oh, well then we can`t be friends anymore." And just like he promised we never spoke again and he would just ignore me. Not gonna make any generalizations, but just saying... this poo happens
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Male 247
@JaundiceCake:

YEEEAAH!!!

I`ve always said that I have the right to be a jerk if I want to, and no one has the right to take that right away.
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Male 17,511
Cajun: [quote]Heck CrakrJak just happened to provide links demonstrating my point.[/quote]

Please explain which point you are talking about.
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Female 515
@cajjun, that`s I don`t believe in religion
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Male 10,855
It would only expose those Muslims BigPappa.
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Female 1,441
I see the bigots have all come out of their hiding places today.
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Male 163
I`m not sure Squirellyburp is entirely wrong, there is a clip from a video on youtube that has several "supposed" muslim men, who are sympathetic to America, that say as much, they are exposing the secrets of the muslim people and do say also that it is required for the muslims to deceive all infidels, every last muslim. They go on to give examples of prominent muslim leaders saying they want peace etc., then show hidden camera footage of the same men speaking against ALL RELIGIONS other than Islam, that they must not rest until everyone that is not muslim either converts or dies and that Allah commands it. It may be B.S. but the video does exist.
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Female 674
As a human, I have the right to hate anybody I like, thank you. Muslims are in that category.

Really tired of people thinking it`s not okay to hate someone/something/some-race. It`s what we do. Welcome to the human race.
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Male 54
god! this must be a troll minefield.
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Male 10,855
Heck CrakrJak just happened to provide links demonstrating my point.
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Female 515
@splurbyburbl

Thanks for that link; quite interesting, and kind of makes me sick.
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Male 10,855
@FeelTheRide

The Qu`ran is also subject to as much debate as the Bible. The muslim you cited is one out of 310 million in the US and 1.57 billion in the entire world.
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Female 1,441
Do people here even realize that a) It`s not a mosque and b) It`s not on Ground Zero?

I suggest you take that into consideration before you make any broad statements because you don`t even know how stupid you`re making yourselves sound.