Patti Uses Facebook To Denounce Homosexuality [Pic

Submitted by: fancylad 7 years ago in Tech

She soon realizes that if you take one part of the Bible literally, you have to take the entire Bible literally.
There are 332 comments:
Male 842
Pwned.
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Male 285
Oh SNAP!
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Male 285
Oh SNAP!
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Female 961
Im loviinggg this post
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Male 2,788
"if you feel something is right and your conscience is clean reguarding the matter, then it`s not a sin.


By that standard, a sociopath cannot sin no matter what they do. "

that is correct sir.
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Male 25,417
Bible ownage!
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Male 12,365
[quote]if you feel something is right and your conscience is clean reguarding the matter, then it`s not a sin.[/quote]

By that standard, a sociopath cannot sin no matter what they do.
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Female 614
lacey, you eloquent awesome being! <3
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Male 74
@GothicQueen "Her name makes me giggle because it makes me think of Patty Mayonnaise."

Doug ftw!

I would have loved to read the response back from Patti!
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Female 4,376
Her name makes me giggle because it makes me think of Patty Mayonnaise.

erm...on a related note I want to hug Lacey. I believe in God but I don`t believe in the Bible.
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Male 220
@Stelly
What happened to the other side of the manor?
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Male 176
Wow..owned in so many levels..this made me happy
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Female 1,324
ugh, this reminds me of some lady I saw on TV (and several others irl but the one on TV was most memorable...) she talked about how her church accepts everyone, so the man, and agnostic, asked if they`d accept buddhists. she said "yes, but they have to say Jesus is God`s son and believe it", that`s acceptance of other christians, because if you say that and believe it that`s the whole point of christianity. so really, her entire argument just contradicted itself and she was too ignorant and proud to realize it. people should read the Screwtape Latters by C.S.Lewis. I`m an agnostic but I found it very interesting, it`s very relavent even now.
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Male 312
Win. Epic Win. I hate how most people interpret religions, although I`m an atheist. Maybe BECAUSE I`m an atheist. I hate how people live by the Bible, doing what it tells them, while not doing what it tells them(misinterpretation). Is the Bible a creation of Satan? Yeah, sort of contradictory, since I said I`m an atheist but w/e.
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Male 317
True story - In school I was asked to write an essay about what a certain poem meant. So I looked into the writer and pretty much copied what he said it meant. I got an F because the teacher and the school took the meaning differently. This is the same crap that goes on with the bible, people want to interpret it in their favor of an argument, all while ignoring what is actually meant (which no one will TRULY ever know.)
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Male 317
Pwned!!!! Are there really any TRUE christians anymore? Or is there a bunch of excuses and thoughtful reasonings why the bible is so outdated and only used in a one-sided manor?

Is so funny how many post there are anytime religion is brought up...(as I throw some gasoline into the fire)
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Male 376
FTW!!!
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Female 10
Win.
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Male 193
love. this.
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Female 43
So, I`m catholic. And after a ton of years of catholic schooling I learned that jesus never confronted homosexuality. Never mentioned. Sin is considered as an act that damages a relationship between yourself and (yourself/god/neighbor/community) So, someone please explain, how does homosexuality hurt any of those relationships. if you feel something is right and your conscience is clean reguarding the matter, then it`s not a sin.
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Male 378
OOOOOOOWWNED!!!!!
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Male 2,850
@thephoenix27

If you stopped using the old testament, why do you keep printing it in your bible?
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Female 635
lol good thing i don`t take the bible word for word

xD
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Female 87
*slow clap of admiration*
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Male 4,290
[quote]Please note that in the New Testament divorce is considered acceptable as long as it`s legal.[/quote]
Actually, divorce was acceptable in the OT as well - see Deuteronomy 24:1, as well as Deut 22:19 and 22:29 for references of "he may not divorce her", implying that there are situations where divorce IS allowed.

[quote]Also, the food restrictions do not apply to the Gentiles.[/quote]
Why not? The OT describes both homosexuality (Lev 18:22) and various animals (Lev 11:10 onwards) as "abominable". So why is one abomination suddenly acceptable, but another is not? Where does that happen in the NT?
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Female 965
Suck it, Patti!
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Male 2,868
"Ooook I`m getting tired of this. People are always referring back to Deuteronomy and Leviticus (The Law of Moses) in order to show how `intolerant` Christianity is."

Maybe it`s the intolerant Christians that keep referring back to Deuteronomy and Leviticus that you need to be getting pissed at.
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Male 441
The old testament of the bible wasn`t meant to be all "Lovely day today! God is love woot!" That Christians now days pretend it to be, it was a book about the survival of single race of people, the Jews. That`s why sex that isn`t procreation is outlawed, because they wanted, nay, they NEEDED you to have children. "Multiply and be fruitful" is said over and over again in the book of genesis, early in the bible there is a story of a man whose brother died so he was by law to have sex with his brothers widow, but he didn`t want a child so he pulled out and god stuck him down.

Don`t eat pork, because they didn`t have the tech to make it safe.

Love thy neighbor, so you don`t murder him.

These are just stories, to make sure the race goes on strong. Most of these stories don`t fit in with todays civilization. Such as stoning a son who disrespects his father. Homosexuality being a sin likewise does not fit in with us anymore. The bible is outdated
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Male 47
As for homosexuality being a sin... there are references to it in the bible being considered as such. However it is always referring to the act of sex between those of the same gender, not being attracted to those of the same sex. This is akin to the restriction placed on sex before marriage or with multiple partners. I realize that there are people who have female minds in male bodies (How testosterone and estrogen affect the brain during development) and vice versa, and I find it very inconsistent with what the bible teaches to assume that such individuals are damned due to circumstances beyond their control. Therefore, I think that the distinction between gay sex as opposed to homosexuality is an important one to make.
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Male 56
I love that guy.. Christianity is just a big book of hypocrisy and condemnation by an arrogant and child like stroppy god ^_^ no offence christians
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Male 441
@thephoenix27 Well if Christians stop using those old testaments to say homosexuality is a sin, we will stop using them to show how many other stupid intolerant laws there were back in those books.
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Female 67
thephoenix27...rock on dude!! I felt like bringing the same point up...but looks like I don`t have to :)
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Male 47
Ooook I`m getting tired of this. People are always referring back to Deuteronomy and Leviticus (The Law of Moses) in order to show how `intolerant` Christianity is. The truth of the matter is that those books are depicting what was the Old Covenant between God and man. After Jesus died on the cross as the ultimate and final sacrifice, a New Covenant was made. The main difference between the two is the inclusion of not just the Jews in salvation but also the non-Jews (Gentiles). The Old Covenant was just for those who were Jewish, God`s chosen people. And it was meant to emphasize trying to live pure and sinless lives. The Jews turned their back on god time and again so eventually he got fed up and opened salvation up to everyone. Please note that in the New Testament divorce is considered acceptable as long as it`s legal. Also, the food restrictions do not apply to the Gentiles.
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Male 505
Ani187:

Why isn`t lacey allowed to pick and chose? All of the christians i know do, so why can`t she?
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Male 2,850
@Kingreggie

Time and time again people refer to "the gay lifestyle", and every time they do they expose their absolute ignorance; there is no "gay lifestyle".

The Pope and Ozzy Osbourne are both straight; I wouldn`t say that they life the same lifestyle, the straight lifestyle.

If you met me, you`d have no damn idea I was gay unless our conversation turned to our love lives.
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Male 154
i deff dont agree with the gay lifstyle, but i do think its wrong to judge, i mean, the bible says somewhere to not judge too, so this person is stupid
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Male 187
Patti got SERRRRVVVVVED
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Male 1,067
I do like it when the classic "Hurr durr, the Bible said so" argument is met with a legitimate and reasonable response using actual quotes from the Bible.
I bet the homophobe had no idea what to say to that :D
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Male 621
I`m gay. It`s awesome. I dunno why people make it such a big deal.
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Male 2,868
"I know how my life has changed since becoming a Christian, and it`s amazing. I want everyone to experience that."

dante8o-
It`s awesome that you underwent an amazing transformation after becoming a Christian- but do you believe that becoming a Christian is going to bring about that same change in everyone else? My life was transformed by psilocybin mushrooms in amazing ways. I can`t really picture what my life would be like right now if I`d never learned what they taught me, and don`t really want to. But I`d never suggest that mushrooms are a good idea for everyone. There are infinite paths to salvation.
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Male 2,868
I was just about to say the same thing, BunnyNaku. Not that it wasn`t obvious.
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Male 468
or they couldve just said.. "Who gives a poo patti?"


NOOOO! Don;t say that or the minister from Uganda will say some gay guy will try to eat da poo poo!
IAB - Dont eat da poo poo!
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Female 5,222
PWND
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Male 452
"Further, the law Jesus did give forbids heterosexuals from treating homosexuals as inferior, just as it forbids any Christian from doing something to someone else that he/she would object to if inflict on them."

Thank you.
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Male 60
What she needs to learn is not to take things out of context.
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Male 34
and boom goes the dynomite
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Female 850
or they couldve just said.. "Who gives a poo patti?"
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Female 387
Ooooooh schooled!!
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Male 128
Great explanation. Reminds me of a chapter of Law & Order where the same explanation took place...
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Female 282
That was awesome.
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Female 467
omg that sounds like a patti on myyearbook
i wonder hmmmmm
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Female 1,682
Oh snap.
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Male 349
Patti got owned. Once for the bible stuff and once for having such a crap name.
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Male 15
footballs aren`t made of pigskin lol
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Female 28
=) WELL THEN :) She got on FIAH!! >;3
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Female 76
OWNED
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Female 221
i dont even understand WHY people care if others are GAY

honestly its not your life and they arent hurting anyone. B-|
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Male 1,351
Haha, Laura sure told her. I think she had that ready the whole time though, because that kind of amazing defense would be terrifying if it was on the fly.
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Male 2,748
and this is why people who use the bible to denounce things are stupid.
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Female 4,447
haha Lacey, you moron. You can`t pick and choose your scripture, that`s cheating.
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Male 12,365
[quote]New Testament...
testament- a covenant instituted between God and man.
new- Not previously experienced or encountered
covenant- A binding agreement, law [/quote]

If the OT was rendered obsolete by the NT, the Christian condemnation of homosexuality is invalid and this whole argument is void.

[quote]These scenerios you mentioned. Are those commands from God to people, or are they telling of a story that`s happened?[/quote]

Some of each. In the case of telling what has happened, they also expressed approval of it.

Tell me what examples you want and I`ll give you chapter and verse.

But of course it`s all irrelevant if you ignore the older half of your bible.
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Female 8
Patti got told.
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Female 1,264
I have the feeling Patti realized she`d be executed ASAP.
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Male 1,054
moefreak

"Homosexuality is also not purely genetic. Otherwise identical twins would have a much higher concordance rate of homosexuality."
They do show such a rate. The 50% figure you mention, a little low I believe, is much higher than the statistical predictions.

Further, I personally know men who participated, one brother gay, the other straight, where the "straight" brother came out after the study. Identical twins don`t always respond to societal pressure the same way.

And until we actually have an accurate test for sexual orientation, or live in society free of anti-gay bias, there is no way to eliminate the `hiding my sexuality` factor from studies like those done with twins.

Lastly, even in identical twins, gene expression can and does vary, particularly for traits that involve multiple genes. There have been identical twins, for example, where on one had perfect pitch.

Genetics and inheritance really are m
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Male 1,054
Zerocyed

"Yea, there definitely is a huge nurture component to homosexuality. "

No. There is some evidence that prenatal hormone levels can influence sexual orientation, but there is no evidence that anything after birth can alter sexual orientation.

The closest to it is recognizing that GLBTQ people raised in homophobic societies and families are more likely to deny and hide their true sexual orientation/gender identity.
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Male 3,631
Well hey Dante, I understand you`re busy so I`ll give you the chance to respond to my original question if you`d like to when your off of work. I`m sure you have a YouThink account (been here long enough by the looks of it) - PM me there? Then maybe we can report back on our profound consensus, if and when reached ;-)
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Female 901
oh, she was owned. she was owned good.
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Male 1,054
dante

"I can`t quote the scriptures, because I don`t dwell on them. "

Then you really aren`t qualified to assert what the Bible does, or does not, say about anything.

" I look to the teachings of Jesus regarding what is right and wrong."

Jesus is silent on the subject of homosexuality. However, Jesus gives a test for false teachers and false teaching in Matthew 7:15-23. The heresy "homosexuality is sin" fails that test, because it harms people, `bears evil fruit`, according to Jesus, `homosexuality is sin` does not come from God.

Further, the law Jesus did give forbids heterosexuals from treating homosexuals as inferior, just as it forbids any Christian from doing something to someone else that he/she would object to if inflict on them.
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Male 285
Oh SNAP!
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Male 50
lol... Suicism. I appreciate that. Bottom line is, I don`t think there`s anything to be angry about. There are things in the Bible that are difficult to understand, I know that. Another big debate is creation vs. evolution. While I believe that God created the world, I`m not going to say that it didn`t take millions of years to accomplish.

My bottom line is this... (and I`ll end my input with this, since I AM at work, and all). I`m a Christian that believes that Jesus died for my sins. My belief in that, along with my repentance for my sins, with a dash of "I`ll try and do better", will get me to heaven. I know how my life has changed since becoming a Christian, and it`s amazing. I want everyone to experience that. I know that`ll never happen, but a guy can dream, can`t he. It seems that those who spew about Christians hating display more hate than anyone (with the exception of West Boro, and don`t even get me started on them wackos). Just be happy, friends! :)
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Female 1,190
madest, while we seem to have a bit of your attention (this is off topic so everyone else ignore lol) what are you? haha i mean, your name is in green, and i know the mods are red, and fancy the main guy is yellow, so whats green? are you like, second only to fancy? just wondering :)
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Male 50
Admisaok... I`m not. That`s why I don`t put my focus into the law, because it would be impossible for me to follow the law. I put my focus in the grace that`s offered through Jesus` sacrifice. I do try to follow the law... I try not to lie. I don`t steal, rape or murder. I do like my beer, so I fall short there every time. Bummer...
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Male 3,631
Hahaha slayer, I should have said "further confuse" but even then your statement would have been equally true ;-) I just don`t want to mob-flash the guy - he`s got a lot of angry customers to deal with.
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Male 50
New Testament...
testament- a covenant instituted between God and man.
new- Not previously experienced or encountered
covenant- A binding agreement, law

Angilion- you`re spurting off things from the O.T., and I`m not sure if you`re repeating things you`ve heard people talk about, or what. These scenerios you mentioned. Are those commands from God to people, or are they telling of a story that`s happened? I`ve done a brief search, and while those things might be mentioned in the O.T., I think they are describing something, not prescribing something. Enlighten me, please.
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Female 3,598
OOH 11 pages of FLAME!!! looks like i know what i`m doin for the rest of this work day...
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Male 988
"Not to further derail the conversation"
Nah don`t worry about that. It happens a lot here.
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Female 1,148
Lacey won.

Yes? yes.
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Male 516
So dante, who are you to tell what is and what isn`t misinterpreted in the bible?
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Male 186
Lacey loves fags.
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Male 3,631
Not to further derail the conversation, but when you have a moment Dante - where does it TELL you, in the bible, to defer to the Old Testament when Jesus` teachings prove insufficient?
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Male 12,365
[quote]Angilion... and what do you have to back up that bold statement?[/quote]

The examples you just ignored, for starters.

Unless you have a special copy of your own personal bible with all the nasty bits removed. Your statements would be internally consistent if that`s the case.
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Male 12,365
[quote]Angillion, before your goofy little rant, you made a good point. (too bad it was overshadowed) [/quote]

Feel free to attempt to answer the rant that wasn`t at all goofy.

If you make public statements about your beliefs, you should be prepared to defend them publically. Your publically stated opinion favours slavery, rape, beating children to death for trivial reasons and a whole slew of other evil. I decided to not give you a free pass on that.
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Male 50
Angilion... and what do you have to back up that bold statement?
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Male 50
Madest... I don`t hate. I love you!! :) Yeah, even you... the one who DOES hate.
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Male 12,365
[quote]"What would Jesus do?" is right. I wonder, though, how a person could make a guess as to what Jesus would do. Hmmm... give me a minute... could it be... the Bible?? (said in the "Church Lady voice") [/quote]

Said in the voice of someone who hasn`t read the Christian bible enough.
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Female 1,190
hatas gonna hate
lol yeah, 10 commandments seem simple enough, ill stick to those
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Male 50
Angillion, before your goofy little rant, you made a good point. (too bad it was overshadowed)

"What would Jesus do?" is right. I wonder, though, how a person could make a guess as to what Jesus would do. Hmmm... give me a minute... could it be... the Bible?? (said in the "Church Lady voice")

Anywho... I think you missed the point when I said "or anything similiar to it". As a person who reads the Bible, on a nearly daily basis, I have a pretty good understanding on what it tells me about Jesus and the type of person he was. I use that.

Also, don`t misunderstand things that were described in the Bible as things prescribed in the Bible. Not the same...

As far as the authors of the Bible, or the translators. I, no doubt, understand that some of the things we know of the Bible may be off a bit, but not at fault of the author. Perhaps the translators might have goofed. Who knows. Too much weight is being put on things other
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Male 534
Good job Lacey!
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Male 12,365
[quote]I feel that if Jesus didn`t teach on it, or anything similiar to it, then we are to use the O.T. teachings.[/quote]

So...you`re OK with slavery? According to the teachings in the OT, slavery is fine as long as your slaves come from a neighbouring country. So according to your own argument, you should feel that it`s OK for you (or any other citizen of the USA) to own slaves who are Mexican or Canadian.

How about getting your dad drunk and raping him while he`s unconscious? That`s praised in the OT. Rape is also considered fine in various other circumstances.

Or you could cross them both and sell your daughter into slavery to be raped. That`s OK too.

Maybe you have a son who might object. You should beat him to death, according to the teachings in the OT.

I bet you haven`t sacrificed any animals to your god, either, and the OT makes it clear you should do.

Somehow, I think you don`t really feel that we should use the OT t
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Male 12
Dante, where in the NT or OT does the bible specifically condemn homosexuality?
Also, did Jesus teach about shell fish? If not, then you must resort to the OT, right?
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Male 12,365
[quote]I believe in the Bible and what it teaches.[/quote]

I bet you don`t.

I bet you believe in some interpretations of some bits of some parts of some (probably bad) translation of your bible, which is itself a small subset of the writings of your religion that was chosen mostly for political reasons (e.g. the NT was mainly about what was useful for taking over the Roman empire). Unless you get access to time travel, you`re never going to know what really should be in your bible.

The decent Christians I have known consider the bible flawed, because it so obviously is *even from a Christian point of view.* Their bottom line is "What would Jesus do?", not "What does it say in the bible?", because that`s actually "What does someone tell me it says in the book that isn`t really the bible anyway?"
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Male 50
Rock on, TxP! :) I may have "jumped the gun" a bit on my last comment. I just didn`t want to stray off the topic. For that, I am sorry. ;)

karma... the Bible verse from the original post is where. I feel that if Jesus didn`t teach on it, or anything similiar to it, then we are to use the O.T. teachings. With ALL that being said, I can`t quote the scriptures, because I don`t dwell on them. They are there, they tell us how God feels about certain things. It is up to God to deal with each person as they face their judgement, not me.
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Male 3,631
Epic win! If only they`d give the testaments a chance to show them what else`s in black and white.. my entire Secular agenda in a nutshell.
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Male 1,625
Kudos on the post! Theres a distinct difference between morality and religion.
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Female 1,190
no im not asking you personally, im just wondering why these people who wrote the bible were chosen to be "enlightened" by god back then but not now
i dont mean that to question god, but i do question the people who wrote it. a lot of stories were based on seeing and hearing visions, and schizophrenia wasnt really well known back then, plus, a lot of the writing was used to get back as people, i cant remember the name, but one guy was basically exiled, but then claimed to have had a vision and was accepted back into his city...coincidence? maybe but we dont know.
and my last point, scientology is based upon a book but is widely mocked (mostly because it is crazy but thats not the point) but so many people go by this ancient book written by people thousands of years ago and we are meant to follow it? thats just how i feel.i guess my question for you then is if jesus himself ever said being homosexual was considered a sin
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Male 12
With all due respect TxP, that question is perfectly reasonable. As dante80 said, "what is this discussion about". S/He condemns homosexuality because of her/his religion. I don`t care how he came to find God, that`s his business.
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Male 12,365
[quote]i want just ONE good, solid argument for why homosexuality is a bad thing. give me JUST ONE to all you anti-gays and homophobes.[/quote]

They have one - it says so in their holy writings.

Although it doesn`t say so as clearly as they might think when they`re reading mistranslations of translations of a small part of their holy writing that was selected mostly for political reasons centuries after the events were alleged to have happened and/or passed by word of mouth for generations before being written down and therefore probably bore little or no resemblence to the original preaching even before they were altered for political reasons.

Besides, the worst the Christian bible might (or might not) say about homosexuality is that it`s no worse than working on a saturday and a whole host of equally trivial things. Tiny woo.
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Female 1,190
karma, in his defense, he is being perfectly nice about his beliefs, so dont throw him under the bus with the "questioning god" thing, we arent here to piss this guy off or anything, just discuss :)
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Female 171
iab readers i mean. love iab for the post
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Male 50
Ok, what is this discussion about? Is it about why I believe in the Bible and God, or is it about views regarding homosexuality? I don`t feel the need to explain to you how I came to know God and His word.

I believe in the Bible and what it teaches. That answers your first question. With that, I`ll answer your last question. Brace yourself... I look to the teachings of Jesus regarding what is right and wrong. :)
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Female 171
drat these comments, i though iab were better than this. i loved this post
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Male 12
Dante80, describe where in the bible, specifically, where it says that homosexuality is a sin. I`m not talking about sex, I mean specifically homosexuality. Perhaps it does, but I don`t remember that.
Also, if you want to live by your bible, that`s your bag. God gave us free will, right? Who are you to question God?
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Male 12,365
I`m going to use this quote every time some annoying git prates about how morality is impossible without their religion:

[quote]I believe in morality, which is doing what is right regardles of what I am told...not in religion, which is doing what I am told regardless of what is right.[/quote]

I`ve got that saved, ready to copy and paste.
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Female 32
To anyone saying all the things Lacey said were from the old testament and should be disregarded and stuff, well a lot of it was from leviticus. The same book patti was probably talking about when she said homosexuality was a sin
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Female 1,190
thats the thing dante, how do you know how god feels about this?
how do you know about god?
the bible was written so many thousands of years ago, by people we, quite frankly, dont know
so i can avoid criticizing your beliefs, do you mind if i ask where you look first to determine what is and is not sin?
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Male 50
TxP, I know what she is saying. She repeated it a few times for me. You are accusing me of using language for MY purpose, while I believe that she is doing the same thing. Choosing the 1 of 3 definitions that does not include religion (and it`s at the bottom of the list). How convenient.

BTW... I didn`t write the book, mm-kay. I`m not calling love anything. I love being drunk, but that doesn`t make it right in God`s eyes. Ya see, there`s where you are getting all mixed up, I believe. It`s God`s eyes, not mine. I`m not here to judge people, and I never will. My gay friends know how I feel, and they don`t seem to be offended. They know that I love them.
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Male 1,610
Edana;

I`m not trying to call you out, but I am genuinely curious about why some people think homosexuals are harmful to society. It would be great to debunk those views here in this forum.

Also I apologize if that was already addressed. I might have missed it while drudging through this flame war of a thread.
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Female 1,190
dante, why do you just keep repeating yourself?
she is saying that you are basically calling love a sin, can you wrap your head around that please?
sorry, i wouldnt be so snappy if you hadnt pulled the "aww you can paste" thing while she was showing how language is used universally, not just for YOUR purpose, whatever that may be...
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Male 50
That`s cute, that you can copy and paste. :)

Sin, as I am using the word, and it`s more popular definition (by your pasted search result)is related to the breaking of God`s law.

Ok, now that I cleared that up. I`ll compare homosexuality to lying. Lying is a sin, by God`s word. While it`s not as deplorable as being a drunkard, it`s still a sin. They are all looked at as sin, and not a single person on this Earth is without sin (remember, the religious definition).
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Male 165
L... all i see from his/her name is L hmmm..
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Female 379
dictionary.com:
1.
transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam.
2.
any act regarded as such a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.
3.
any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It`s a sin to waste time.
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Female 379
dante8o welcome to language, which evolves and adapts. Also, a sin has pretty much always been known to be a bad thing, so calling homosexuality a bad thing is insulting not only to those who are homosexual, but also to those who have friends who are homosexual. To compare being homosexual to being a drunkard is the same as comparing being in a loving, heterosexual relationship to being a drunkard. it`s wrong.
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Male 988
Wow the reply was only that short? Theres about 1100 more acts of cruelty or demands of bloodshed than that. (I`m not exaggerating)
Here`s what I mean.
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Male 50
Serpentchick... I thought everyone was in agreement that "sin" is a religious term that refers to the breaking of one of God`s laws. I wasn`t aware that "sin" is used in a secular way.
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Male 149
well, zmeace heres one thing:

They eat each other poo poo! lol

no jk, I have nothing against gay people.
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Female 709
Wow that didn`t take her long at all to reply to that message! It would have taken me YEARS to just find my bible, let alone look up all those different quotes.
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Female 379
madest, genetics is just one more way that we can tell people who say "it`s not natural" that they`re wrong. True that it shouldn`t matter, but lots of things shouldn`t matter and do, and if you have one more reason on your side sometimes it helps. course usually not because those people won`t listen to reason usually anyways, they just go back to the whole "the bible says it`s wrong" but oh well.
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Male 15,510
[quote]"i would click the like button until my mouse breaks for lacey`s (or whoever L is (the second message)) argument"

the like button becomes the unlike button once it is liked, so really you would just end up looking really indecisive[/quote]

Rofl
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Male 89
"i would click the like button until my mouse breaks for lacey`s (or whoever L is (the second message)) argument"

the like button becomes the unlike button once it is liked, so really you would just end up looking really indecisive
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Female 379
I still have a concept of a "sin". A sin is hitting someone, hurting someone, killing someone, etc. A sin is bad. To ever compare homosexuality, as long as it is with a consenting adult, as a sin, is an insult. It`s like saying you loving your husband or wife is wrong, or getting your mom flowers on mother`s day is wrong, or any other kind expression of love is wrong. It`s insulting and hurtful.
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Male 50
And for the record, I am NOT anti-gay or a homophobe. I was involved in high school theater, for crying out loud! lol
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Female 1,963
Serpentchick, yes, that`s true. But it would seem to be that when identical twins only have about a 50% concordance rate of homosexuality, even accounting for prenatal environment, there must be at least SOME postnatal environmental influence. Besides, most scientists believe that sexuality isn`t a clear divide between straight, bisexual and gay, but rather a continuum of sorts. Perhaps the environmental influence is the thing that influences the exact extent to which a person is homosexual or heterosexual.

It`s an interesting topic, and probably not one which we will fully understand for some time.
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Male 50
Serpentchick... let me ask you something. Do you believe in what the Bible teaches? I`m going to go out on a limb and say "no". Ok then. Then idea of sin is irrelevant to you, right? You don`t look at things as "sin", instead you catagorize things by what you believe is right or wrong. So if a homosexual does not believe in the Bible, then the word "sin" means nothing to them. It`s just another word. However, if they do believe in the Bible, then they know. They know what the Bible teaches, and they know that all sin is equal. They should no more be offended by that than I am by being a drunkard.
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Female 379
I never said that it is purely environmental, but it is definitly more environmental than homosexuality, as homosexuality comes up in basically any environment, whereas serial killers do not. also, there are things that are genetic and not expressed, as there are things that repress or otherwise alter the effects of genes, so there is the possibility it is almost entirely genetic with different things repressing it or expressing it, one of the reasons studying genes is so difficult. then there`s the effect of being in the womb, etc. which is still "being born that way" but not genetic.
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Female 1,963
I`m just saying that you`re stating things as fact that you could not possibly know for certain, certainly not by reading one book that is meant for entertainment.

I`ve already said that it is very possible that a certain environment is needed to trigger genetic predispositions. However, that does not prove that those genetic predispositions do not exist, as you seemed to be implying earlier, when you said "Serial killers, rapists, pedophiles, etc. are not BORN that way, they are MADE through things like child abuse and trauma as a child."

I was merely arguing that they are, to some extent, born that way.

And that homosexuality, while not in any other way comparable to murder, rape or paedophilia, is also a combination of genetics and environment to some extent. If it was PURELY genetic, identical twins would always both be heterosexual or homosexual.
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Male 807
i want just ONE good, solid argument for why homosexuality is a bad thing. give me JUST ONE to all you anti-gays and homophobes.
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Male 807
i would click the like button until my mouse breaks for lacey`s (or whoever L is (the second message)) argument
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Female 379
also, why the hell are we arguing about how serial killers were made? I was just trying to state that comparing serial killers to homosexuals is ridiculous, not saying that I`m an expert on it.
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Female 379
the book I read was, but not the one my mom read. and if you didn`t notice, I`m NOT doing research on the subject, and I`m not going based on ONLY his book. I`m stating the facts that have been found several times, and unless you give me some proof that what he, and the author of the other book, said are completly fictitious, I see no problem with listening to it. And if there doesn`t, for anyone who is, again, NOT psychotic to the point of seeing devils, then why have there not been more serial killers who were NOT abused or traumatized?
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Female 1,190
bored-am-i
haha you need not forget the great bowie as well,
he says hes straight but the whole world knows hes gay,
i think he just learned to come to terms with the fact that make up on an older man isnt quite as flattering as it is on the young man he used to be
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Female 395
here here!! well said! :-)
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Female 379
dante8o
the thing that I don`t like about what you said is that you think that homosexuality is wrong. That is the thing that we are arguing against, the idea that it is a sin in any way. in my religion, if you don`t hurt anyone, including yourself, then go for it. So you saying that it is a sin, even a sin that will be forgiven, is insulting to every homosexual person who accepts who they are as a good person who just wants to be loved.
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Female 1,963
Serpentchick, is the book by Harold Schechter? You realize that the man has no psychological, medical or even sociological education, right? He is a professor of American Literature. His books are meant for entertainment, not for any kind of scientific research.

And no, there doesn`t have to be an environmental component, at least not specifically in the form of some kind of abuse.
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Female 3,726
Daaaamn Lacey...nice! And Pattie: you got owned bitch!
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Male 50
I got bored reading all the same comments over and over again, so if I`m repeating another post... oops, my bad.

The Bible is split into 2 sections... Old and New Testament. The Old was salvation by following the law of God. When we failed at being able to do that (because of sin), Jesus was sent as our new means of salvation (grace). Because no man/women is capable of following the law to the letter, Jesus died for us so that we may have salvation.

My point, you ask? The Bible teaches that sin is "equal". Your homosexuality, my "fill in the blank", his "what have you" is all looked at the same. Sin! So yeah... I have gay friends, I have friends that are drunkards, etc... but if we all put our faith in Jesus, we can all have the same salvation. Oddly enough, that`s why I feel the need to tell people about Jesus. Not only am I instructed to do so (by the Bible), but I want my friends to have the same outcome that I will. :)
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Male 194
i stand corrected, totally forgot about the old testament lol, but i know the other stuff is true like the football thing
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Male 784
TxP - gay people rock

There has not been established any scientific proof on the link between gayness and rock in general. But there are empiric data that links gay people and Eurovision-Song-Contest-Music.

There is one exeption, though, Freddy Mercury.
He rocks.
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Male 1,313
Patti is a lame duck
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Female 379
the book I read was the serial killer files, and my mom read several, the one I remember being why they kill. and again, I`m not saying there is NO genetic factor, I`m saying that there HAS to be an environmental factor. also, the books all said that there were no cases where the killer was definitly not abused or had a traumatic experience (usually abuse, but sometimes loss of entire family, etc.), so I`m just taking the word of the books.
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Female 1,963
"There have been no recorded cases where there was definitly no child abuse" really? You`ve gone through them all? I`m sorry, but reading one book (no matter how many case studies it contained) is in no way sufficient for you to make such universal claims. I`m am very curious now about which book it was, exactly.

Look, even if we assumed that every single serial killer ever was abused as a child, that STILL does not imply that serial killers are just made. It doesn`t imply that anyone who is abused as a child has the potential to become a serial killer. There is still VERY likely to be some significant genetic component.
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Female 1,190
not to get into this heated argument between zero and serpent, but from what ive learned in my bio and psych classes is that if you have a larger number of boys, the youngest of the group statistically have higher rates of being gay, it has something to do with the female body treating the developing boy as a threat, (apparently this is what the body does, i took these classes a few years ago, dont totally site me on this) so when it treats him as a threat, it does something to slightly alter the chemical balance in the child. Most of the time its not enough to do anything, as my dad is the youngest of three and what can i say, here i am, lol so it only raises the odds, but the controversy with this argument is that it doesnt explain gay females so, im at a loss there :P
all in all, gay people rock and i enjoy having girl talk with my friend josh :)
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Male 302
flipNhigh, the Old testament (Torah) was written before Christ, so 3000 is about right, I would think.
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Female 379
flipNhigh, only the parts AFTER JESUS were written after jesus. the other parts were written before jesus. Like Noah`s ark. that was BC. there were loads of things before jesus in the bible.
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Male 784
+ lol @ henryhendrix

Google-Fu, haha!
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Female 379
just FYI, there are actually loads of female serial killers, they`re just not they shooty, stabby types, they instead poison. and I`m not saying there are no genetic factors, I`m saying they are made, yes there could be the dominoes set up and ready to fall, but someone has to push them over.
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Male 194
umm couple wrongs with her argument...she said 3,000 ago, when the bible wasn’t written until hundreds of years after Jesus died...so that would be 2,000 to 1,500 years ago...and footballs haven’t been made from actual pig skin in forever, they are made from cow hide, so football is still ok =] plus some of the other stuff she said is a sin in my religion anyway, so I don’t really care
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Male 784
@Zerocyde
You are a dick. The brain is not under your belt, it`s above. Under your belt you find your...exactly...
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Female 379
of course they`re not simply made, but they are, infact, made. the only time they are not made is if they see demons and are severely psychotic. Other than that, there have been no recorded cases where there was definitly no child abuse. With people being as complicated as they are, you can`t say that child abuse will for certain turn someone into a serial killer, but it is considered a necessary component to turning someone into one. as well as reward, or lack of punishment, for violence, and lack of someone nurturing. those three are necessary, it`s been seen time and time again. and the book I read was only about serial killers, so it`s not like it was one passage in a text. it was lots of case studies, and professional opinion in the field. as it`s not my main study, it`s not something I`m highly read up on, but I`m not ignorant either.
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Male 722
The Google-Fu is strong with this one.
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Male 3,255
"so yeah, don`t tell me that I don`t know what I`m talking about."

It`s hard not to when you say the poo you`ve been saying in this thread so far.
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Male 4,546
Also, sorry serpent chick.

How many serial killers are men?
How many are women?

Lowest ratio I have ever heard is 6:1.

1) This suggests genetic factors.
2) Girls are abused more than boys.

This also suggests genetic factors.
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Female 1,963
Serpentchick, I`m impressed that you`ve read one "very good book" on the subject, and that your mom "has several". But take it from me (a neuroscience student, if that helps): serial killers are not simply "made". Almost nothing about our psyches or behaviour is that clearly defined as either genetic or environmental.
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Female 379
dude, I`ve just finished my 3rd year at UC berkeley as a bio major. so yeah, don`t tell me that I don`t know what I`m talking about.
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Female 379
zerocyde, take a few genetics classes where you learn that you cannot study heredity without taking nurture into account, and then you`ll know.
Yes, there are always a few things that might slightly tilt you to becoming one thing or another, but serial killers, etc ARE MADE, hence why they are NOT COMPAREABLE to homosexuality, or sexuality in general. if you want to go into the detail of it, go look it up and read books yourself. I`ve read a very good book, and my mother has read several, and they ALL say that serial killers are MADE. that, and I don`t think you understand exactly how abusive these people`s childhoods were. it wasn`t just getting beaten, it was verbal, sexual, etc. that caused them to become what they did, and it`s VERY difficult to come out of that amount of abuse as a normal adult.
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Male 3,255
@Serpentchick

I hate to sound like a dick here, but there is no way you are anything more than a first year college student with a first or MAYBE second quarter biology class under her belt.
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Male 1,931
I remember when I was a christian, I heard "atheist" and stereotypically thought evil. But the second I looked at religion from an outside perspective, I became an atheist.
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Female 379
well, as I am not the foremost scientist studying sexuality, I can`t tell you if we can tell if an infant is gay. nor can I tell you if we know an infant is straight. But I can tell you that a lot of evidence points to it not being a choice, and not being something you are raised to become. My mom told my sister and I she`d love us no matter who we loved, and neither of us turned out gay. Sure that`s just a case study, but it`s still true that nurture is in all probability not the deciding factor in sexuality
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Female 1,963
Serpentchick, the point is that if an abusive childhood was all it took, there would be many, many more rapists, serial killers and paedophiles. Most likely there is some sort of genetic predisposition that some people have that will make them more likely to develop certain conditions, such as antisocial personality disorder, when faced with certain environmental stressors (like an abusive childhood). Most people who experience traumatic events in their childhood will not go on to rape, murder or molest anyone, possibly because they lack this genetic predisposition.

There is also plenty of research to suggest that certain deficits in frontal lobe development are associated with violent behaviour. So physical brain abnormalities can influence future criminality.
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Male 302
Most of the really extreme stuff like that comes from Deuteronomy and Leviticus, which is not as important for modern day Christians because they are laws laid down for ancient desert tribes.

The important stuff is Jesus` teachings like `love thy neighbour`. It does annoy me when ALL religions get labelled by their various fundamentalists.
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Male 3,255
"as a biologist I have a pretty good idea of what nurture means in the case of how hereditary something is."

rofl, what? What the drat does heredity have to do with nurture?
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Male 784
@edana - you state: Dang, son, for all you know, I am black, hispanic, green.

I just need an answer to this. I can`t sleep.
Are you green??
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Female 379
as a biologist I have a pretty good idea of what nurture means in the case of how hereditary something is. Atheism is NOT genetic. It`s thought out. it is NOT comparable to sexuality, just as my hair color is NOT comparable to my favorite book.
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Male 3,255
@Serpentchick

"If there was a " huge nurture component to homosexuality" why have people been born homosexual into families where being homosexual is considered a sin? "

Why am I an Atheist when my entire family are die-hard christians that think atheists are scum? I don`t think you have a firm understanding of the meaning of nurture.

Also, born homosexual? You can tell if an infant is gay?
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Female 379
If there was a " huge nurture component to homosexuality" why have people been born homosexual into families where being homosexual is considered a sin? There would be no business for those who "cure" homosexuality if all those who were born gay were born into loving, nurturing families that didn`t care who they were attracted to
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Female 379
Moefreak: well, pretty much every serial killer has had an abusive upbringing (I read a very long book on the subject with many case studies) even ones that said they didn`t probably did, as there was investigations into it. Rape (not the drunk fratboy type, but the actually going out and raping people) is usually about loss of a sense of power, so they take it from others. and Pedophilia is either about being molested when they were children, or caused by significant repression of themselves (such as in priests who are not allowed to have non-harmfull sex). Yes there are a *few* people who have things like skitzophrenia or other mental illnesses, but pretty much every case has been caused by outside forces.

Also, 50% is pretty high considering for regular single births it`s a much lower number, also we don`t fully know exactly what causes homosexuality, especially in females.
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Male 3,255
@moefreak

Yea, there definitely is a huge nurture component to homosexuality. I think (think, not know) that whatever genetic\nature factors exist are probably along the lines of like, slight hormone balance issues that make a persons reaction to homosexual actions more or less severe.

Like the old guy joke thing, "would you suck a dick for a million dollars?" Some guys say "sure," some say "hell no," while I usually say "poo i`d suck a dick for like, 10 grand!" Gayness is full on nasty in my opinion, but i`ll do something nasty for 10 grand, lol. Point being, maybe if I had a more gay mom or whatever, then maybe I`d have turned out gay. Gross.
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Male 1,081
What a ravenous verbal beating.
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Female 1,963
Serpentchick, they are usually at least partially "born that way". Otherwise, how could you explain the fact that not everyone who suffers an abusive childhood ends up as a serial killer, rapist or paedophile? The cause is almost certainly a combination of genetics and environment.

Homosexuality is also not purely genetic. Otherwise identical twins would have a much higher concordance rate of homosexuality. In reality, if one identical twin is homosexual, the chances that the other one is as well are around 50%. It could still be caused partially by prenatal conditions (which can be somewhat different for identical twins), but is also definitely in some ways affected by environment after birth. This still doesn`t obviously imply choice, in any way.
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Male 3,255
I wonder when all the judeo christian religions are finally going to go the way of the pagan (zeus, odin, ra, ect) religions. I hope soon. It feels like only a matter of time before someone who thinks that everyone who doesn`t believe in his god should be burned live comes into power or something and bing, bang, domino effect it`s the dark ages again.
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Male 4,546
Some interesting studies on homosexuality.

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Male 2,619
Patti........ STFU
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Female 379
just saying: Serial killers, rapists, pedophiles, etc. are not BORN that way, they are MADE through things like child abuse and trauma as a child. To want to cause harm to others is not usually an innate thing, it`s almost always caused by outside forces. So equating those to homosexuality is completely wrong, they are two separate types of things. that and the fact that homosexuality doesn`t hurt people should make the distinction pretty obvious.
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Male 4,546
Kalimata,
Agreed, except about the bonobos. They use rape as a method of social conformity. They use rape as a punishment. They use rape as a dominance measure.

Pretty much anything about the bonobos that has a human equivalent of violence, the bonobos do with rape.

This is not a better society.

Secondly, last studies I read on the topic suggested the amount of violent crime committed was by:
Straight Women < Gay men < Gay Women < Straight Men in number of violent crimes when adjusted for size of population.

Don`t quote me on that I don`t have the study.
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Male 2,893
Phhhhhtttttt.
The Bible. What does it know.
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Female 1,190
thats the thing about the bible, its so extreme. and if i recall correctly, quite often contradicts itself :P i dunno, i was raised christian (and am well aware that i would be of another religion if simply raised another way) so yeah, i believe in god, simply because i dont know what is out there, and i realize i am infinitesimally smaller than all that is out in the universe. Thats really what keeps me in perspective of my life, that it technically doesnt really matter in relation to anything outside of this world, so why not have a little faith?
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Male 661
I hate double posting in a thread, but you know...
I would like to see some hard facts and figures.
Pedophiles, child molesters, murderers, rapists, abusers, thieves.
I want to see what percentage of those charged with these crimes are gay, and are straight. Then someone smart with the maths figure out the ratio of criminals per population.

Awe heck, I know the answer to that. The ratio of violent criminals within the GLB community is far lower than the "normal" (please, used almost sarcastically) populations.
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Male 661
I laugh at the whole "Gays are abominations, they`re a crime against nature." Open a book that does not start with; "In the beginning..." There are multiple documented studies in animal behavior showing that it is quite common in nature. During overpopulation, Rats, rabbits and deer all go to the gay bar. Don`t even get me started about Bonobo chimpanzees. It is natural, it is normal within a large population. Give it a rest.
Do your homework!
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Male 606
pwnt.
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Female 1,963
Johanvb, that`s hilarious.
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Male 530
This would be an nice twist on the Little Britain sketch `computer says no`.

A conservative Christian that answers all questions on religion with `Bible says no`.
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Male 447
Maddest why are you green? Is this some new semi-mod color? Or are you just that fashionable?
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Male 1,054
Edana

"No, I said it is genetic, an anomoly within the body - just like (for example but not exclusive to) pedofilia, serial killers and that you cannot "change" who you are just like I can`t become gay because I wasn`t wired that way.

You took the step and equated homosexuality to horrid things."

No, Edana, you equated those things to homosexuality. There are thousands of innate traits, many of which are harmless, but you chose to say that homosexuality is like harmful things.

Homosexuality is like heterosexuality. It is like handedness, hair color, skin color, perfect pitch, to name only a few. But when looking for comparisons to make, you chose rape and murder.
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Female 1,963
And furthermore, why does something that is genetic have to be an "anomaly"? Do you think that everyone that is genetically different from you is abnormal? Can`t there be more than one kind of normality?
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Female 1,963
Edana, I would also like to know how you think that homosexuality harms society. Particularly when you yourself attest that homosexuality is "an anomoly within the body", and thus clearly isn`t being "spread" by homosexuals.

Homosexuality cannot possibly harm society just by simply existing. If it does not harm individuals, it cannot harm society.
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Male 39
@Fiizok: Lacey Rocks!!!
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Male 591
Patti rocks!
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Male 1,054
Edana

I think you are worth taking time to argue with. So I want to contrast somethings that have just been posted:
You wrote: "But some do say the homosexuality does harm society and therefore harms others."
I wrote: "you assume it is right because an external authority gave it to you, but you lack the ability to test it for rightness."
Here`s the thing, you should know that just because `some people` say something, doesn`t make it so. You should be able to test `homosexuality harms society` by demonstrating actual harm. Instead, you relied on an external, and poor authority, in the form of `some people`.

Use your head and heart, and actually try to figure out right and wrong on your own. If you are a Christian, that is what `love your neighbor as yourself` is all about - an rule that says `test your actions, would you want to be stolen from, compared to pedophiles, lied to, etc? - if not, don`t do it to others.`


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Female 2,509
heuruex

"You complain about being judged, but you judged millions of human beings and decided that when they make love, it is like raping an animal or a child, or like killing people."

No, I said it is genetic, an anomoly within the body - just like (for example but not exclusive to) pedofilia, serial killers and that you cannot "change" who you are just like I can`t become gay because I wasn`t wired that way.

You took the step and equated homosexuality to horrid things.
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Female 2,509
davymid and reaganom

will get back to you. I actually have some work to do.

TTFN
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Male 1,054
Edana

"But some do say the homosexuality does harm society and therefore harms others. "

People lie. The fact is that there is no substantiated evidence to back up such claims.

But there are thousands and thousands of people just in the U.S. who are harmed by anti-gay prejudice - with tangible evidence like broken bones, corpses, burned out buildings. Pro-gay churches have been fire-bombed, GLBTQ people are still beaten and killed in the U.S. for being gay, while Uganda is still trying to institute a death penalty, after U.S. homophobes went there and stirred the pot with pseudo-religious hate speech.

You complain about being judged, but you judged millions of human beings and decided that when they make love, it is like raping an animal or a child, or like killing people.

You judged GLBTQ people, and your judgment of them is evidence against you. Your dismissals just mean you know I`m right, and can`t refute what I`ve posted.
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Female 3,828
I cant believe that theres still people on iab that believe homosexuality is wrong.
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Male 1,054
"however, there is a difference between slippery slope and going in with your eyes wide open/shut. Just asking the question."

That`s a dishonest answer, Ednana. The problem is that you really don`t understand the issue, and your question betrays that you don`t really understand morality, or Christianity for that matter.

You don`t see that it was truly vile for you to equate homosexuality, people`s loving, unitive, intimate relationships, with acts of violence like rape and murder.

It says that you really do not recognize that harming other people is wrong, that your moral/ethical code is based not on the value of human life, but on coerced compliance with authority. That is precisely the attitude that has enabled so many of history`s atrocities.
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Female 2,509
heureux

damn you`re good. you have me all figured out. please, please continue to judge me. I`m sure it makes you feel better.
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Male 12,138
[quote]But some do say the homosexuality does harm society and therefore harms others. [/quote]
Who says this (apart from religious zealots)? And in what way does homosexuality harm society?
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Male 505
Edana,

how does homosexuality harm others or society?
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Female 2,509
Heureux - The fraud here is that you are only recognizing half of the argument - homosexuality is innate, people are born that way, AND, homosexuality is not harmful to one`s self or others.

But some do say the homosexuality does harm society and therefore harms others.
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Male 1,054
"One thing that no one is mentioning is that the arguments people use to support the gay lifestyle can be applied to other lifestyles. Simply use the word "pedofile" instead of "gay". Now THAT scares me."

It scares you because it indicates you cannot tell right from wrong on your own.

Sexual predation, like pedophilia, harms people. Same-sex lovemaking does not.

You get scared Edana, because you realize that your moral sense is not based on reason, logic, compassion, empathy, but on a subjective, dictated code - you assume it is right because an external authority gave it to you, but you lack the ability to test it for rightness.

Of course, if you recognized that harm is a key determinant of right and wrong, in Christianity too, you`d have to acknowledge that your prejudice against GLBTQ people is wrong, because it harms us.
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Male 1,054
Edana

"The point is that a line has to be drawn somewhere. I ask where do we, as a society, draw it?"
If you have to ask, then you are not qualified to opine about anyone else`s life. The line is draw where harm begins. All civil rights end at the point where acting on them harms someone else.

"If you give one group rights because "they are born that way" etc.; then by the same logic you have to give the others the same rights."

The fraud here is that you are only recognizing half of the argument - homosexuality is innate, people are born that way, AND, homosexuality is not harmful to one`s self or others.

"Gays cannot change how they feel and neither can pedofiles, serial killers,"

Pedophiles, serial killers, and homophobes all harm other people. You just equated some people`s capacity for love and intimacy with rape and murder. That says you have no rational moral compass.
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Female 1,963
The line is drawn very precisely at consent. If two adult human beings knowingly consent to doing something together that harms no one else, they should be allowed to do it. End of story.
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Female 2,509
davymid

wiki, really? jk

however, there is a difference between slippery slope and going in with your eyes wide open/shut. Just asking the question.
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Female 570
full of win
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Male 505
Muso:

whilst i agree with you 14 year olds can create damage. As far as the age of consent goes i think 14 is a little young. I know full well that you can manipulate a 14 year old (i`m the oldest from a family of five, not from a perverse reason) I do think that they should have to shoulder reponsibility though.
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Male 505
@davymid

I`d honestly never heard of that, thanks for the info =]
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Female 2,509
madest

okay, you are off on a totally tangent. I`ll be sure to tell my friends we can no longer be friends because I have different views.

As for your "crimial" line - there are many things that were considered criminal that no longer are and vice versa.
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Male 2,850
Alternatively, we could have a bastardised bar mitzvah style system; as soon as puberty hits, the law says you`re an adult; no ifs, no buts, and it`s your responsibility and your parents` and teachers` responsibilities to make sure you`re ready for that adulthood.

We might have fewer teenaged yobs and petty criminals if they spent their childhoods being taught "soon we`re going to expect you to behave responsibly, so you better act like it".

18 (or 16 or 21 or whatever) is way too late. Many 14 year olds, for example, can do a lot of damage to themselves and others; they can act like adults, but aren`t expected to shoulder the responsibility and maturity of one. That`s not right.
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Male 12,138
vv "The point is that a line has to be drawn somewhere. I ask where do we, as a society, draw it? If you give one group rights because "they are born that way" etc.; then by the same logic you have to give the others the same rights. Gays cannot change how they feel and neither can pedofiles, serial killers, people with OCD, etc. There has to be limits what society accepts. Be careful of opening Pandora`s box."

Ah, the old slippery slope fallacy.
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Male 239
@edana42, lines shift as a society evolves. Does that frighten you?
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Male 2,850
Cont: Yet, had I wanted to join the army at that age, I would have been allowed.

Considered old enough to start a military career, but not old enough to have sex (or look at pictures of sex, or smoke, or drink, or drive, or vote, etc, etc).
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Male 2,850
"however, the age is not so cut and dry."

On that we`re agreed. I personally think consent should be means-tested, rather than assigned at an age (ie, you earn it like you would a driving licence or gun licence).

That way, the right to consent would be granted based on your ability to consent, rather than an arbitrary age. We all know mature and responsible 17 year olds who are frustrated and angry because society treats them like kids without a chance to prove themselves as mature, and likewise we all know 25 year olds who act like toddlers and cause havok because they can immaturely drink and smoke and drive and have sex etc etc.

Neither you or I agree with child abuse, clearly. But I had sex at 16 (and this was before the law changed here to move the age of consent for homosexual sex from 18 to 16), and I would not have considered myself a child then. Yet in the eyes of the law, the other person involved was a paedophile.

Yet, had I want
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Female 2,509
ah musuko, I posted before I saw you additional comments. 1st, I despise have to clarify my "friends". It does sound cheesy to have to say that but I was hoping to fend of the "racist/bigot" comments. Ooops too late.

It is my hope that people would possibly look at the big picture (past the homosexuality issue) at the doors they could be opening. I`m not saying don`t open it, just look before you do.
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Male 505
Edana:

Homosexuality is not beyond the line. The line is already drawn and homsexuality does not cross it.

And to answer your question society draws the line where it see`s fit. As has been the case for many many years.
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Female 2,509
musuko42

yes, it is a consent issue. however, the age is not so cut and dry. for example in the American legal system there is much discrepecy at what age is a child responsible for his actions. If a some children are old enough to commit a crime and realize they wouldn`t want it done to them, they understand their actions and consequences.

So in this vein of thought, could they not be old enough to consent? OMG please do not take it that I approve of pedofilia. (sp)

Again, the point is where does society draw the line?
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Male 239
Consent and the ability to give your consent.
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Male 2,850
@edana42

Please read my post carefully and think about those two questions, and apply them to various scenarios you can think of.

Mention any where you think those questions don`t answer the morality of the situation. I`d be interested to see if they need tweaking.
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Male 2,850
"just to clear something up...I have friends who are gay"

That is the defence used by every bigot. Don`t use that defence if you don`t want people to think you`re a bigot.
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Male 2,850
@edana42

The line you draw is at consent and the ability to give it. It`s no more complex than that.

You can apply a simple methodology to every circumstance; all you need are two simple questions, and the morality of every situation can be determined:

1: Are all persons involved deemed responsible for their own actions and consequences?
2: Do all persons involved give their consent?

If yes to both, nobody has any business interfering. If no to either, a law can/should be made against it.

Non-forced sex between consenting adults (heterosexual and homosexual); yes to both.
Rape: No to 2.
Bestiality: No to both.
Sex between an adult and a child: No to 1 (and usually to 2).

Etc.
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Male 505
Edana:

Talk about extremism. Homosexuality isn`t a gateway to evil. Homosexuality is not immoral or bad. Murder, rape and paedophilia is wrong, immoral and bad.

You seem to be saying "if we allow homosexuality what next!? murders, MASS MURDERS". It`s an unjustified knee jerk reaction to something you don`t like.
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Female 2,509
madest

where in God`s name did you get that others are beneath me? Dang, son, for all you know, I am black, hispanic, green. The point I am asking is where does society draw the line? Personally, I want a more concrete answer than "born that way" just like I don`t accept "because it`s in the bible."
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Male 12,138
Zing, and couldn`t agree more.
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Female 2,509
reganom

the similarity is that the issues are genetic, not that they are all "evil" or "bad". I do not accept the argument that homosexuality should be acceptable because "that`s how they are." Where does society draw the line as to what is and isn`t acceptable?
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Female 8,006
Sin- Hmmmm- feeling an attraction to a person of the same sex, no sin, acting on that with a consenting adult, no sin. Despising someone you have never met and condeming them on a generalisation. That might be a sin. Perhaps that young lady needs some lessons in morality?
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Male 505
Topper:

That video makes me laugh everytime!
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Female 2,509
madest

just to clear something up...I have friends who are gay, my boss, his boss and a great deal of people I work with are gay (yep, I`m still amazed at the ratio). My thoughts are that it is an issue between God and them.

My concern is precedence. (sp)
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Male 1,929
NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO EAT THE POO POO!!!!!

lol
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Female 682
HELL YES!
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Male 505
What i`m getting from you edena is that you believe serial killers, paedophilia and others things like that are in someway similar to homosexuality...Thats stupid. If i`ve mis interpreted them please explain...

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Male 1,136
Boom, headshot.
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Female 2,509
The point is that a line has to be drawn somewhere. I ask where do we, as a society, draw it? If you give one group rights because "they are born that way" etc.; then by the same logic you have to give the others the same rights. Gays cannot change how they feel and neither can pedofiles, serial killers, people with OCD, etc. There has to be limits what society accepts. Be careful of opening Pandora`s box.

As for the consent argument - there is considerable disagreement how old is old enough for consent.
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Male 339
woot go lacey! you tell that rooster sucking bitch
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Male 2,850
"Consider me old school. People I consider "pedophiles" are those who`ve molested children or priests..."

LOL! Okay, you`ve just said paedophiles molest priests. XD

Commas can be important.
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Male 2,850
"Musuk it`s clear from madest post that he was refering to the criminal acts involved."

Then he should say what he means.

"And in order to become a "pedophile" you need to molest someone."

paedophile: an adult who is sexually attracted to children.

By your logic, the millions of teen boys out there masturbating over pictures of naked women are not heterosexual, because they haven`t had sex with a woman.

You`re a paedophile if you lust after children, regardless of whether you`ve acted on it.

Anyway, back to the main discussion.

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Male 239
@unmercyfuldu...yeah, I missed that last part of your comment. It`s a crazy theory, but who knows? You should get a huge government grant and do the research. Start in Africa and look at regions where homosexuality is more prevalent. Then compare the homosexuality rate with the population growth of each area... Dude, we could make millions.
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Female 1,963
Well, no, madest. Pedophilia is the desire itself, not the act. One can be a pedophile without ever touching a child.

I`m not sure what this has to do with anything right now, though.
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Male 505
Musuk it`s clear from madest post that he was refering to the criminal acts involved.
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Male 2,850
"Being a "Pedophile" is a crime."

No it`s not. Molesting a child is a crime. Feeling a desire to molest a child is not.

That`s a critical distinction. Because without it, we`re all murderers every time we feel the urge to strangle our boss.
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Male 4,593
I bet Patti is an animal-like vixen in bed.
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Male 2,850
"One thing that no one is mentioning is that the arguments people use to support the gay lifestyle can be applied to other lifestyles."

There is no "gay lifestyle". My lifestyle is as different to the next gay person`s lifestyle as it is to Margaret Thatcher`s.

The only thing we have in common is being attracted to the same gender. Nothing more. Gay people are as diverse and varied as straight people.

You don`t refer to a "straight lifestyle" do you, and think that the Pope has the same lifestyle as Ozzy Osbourne. Both straight.
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Male 610
i fell in love with a lesbian. not a cool story bro :(
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Male 505
edana42, simply replace gay with "regular relationship" and the arguments could still apply, so i fail to see your point :S
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Male 505
That is from the book of matthew and unless i`m very much mistaken is from the new testament, the first book i believe.
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Female 2,509
One thing that no one is mentioning is that the arguments people use to support the gay lifestyle can be applied to other lifestyles. Simply use the word "pedofile" instead of "gay". Now THAT scares me.
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Male 762
@Django

Your claim is exactly what I just addressed. I addressed a biological purpose to homosexuality. A species` response to overpopulation...
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Male 505
Murcu the majority of religious people are narrow minded. The majority of religious people claim that there belief is the only valid one and that the other alternatives are wrong.

And to the christians who are saying "well thats the OLD testament"...

For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven”-Matthew 5:18-19 RSV

The alternate translations
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Male 2,850
Biologically, I`d say it`s arguable that there`s any value added with "productive" sex between opposite genders; a lot of the problems we`re experiencing in the world right now would be made worse by increasing numbers of people, not better.
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Male 881
@Murcu, you say, "let`s not bash the whole institutional religion thing", but then your very next sentence starts, "Truth is". So you ask us to tolerate the big lie as you tell us the truth? Lies are always harmful, always.
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Male 239
I`m not calling it pointless. My niece is a lesbian and my best friend is gay. The "point" is they`re attracted to people of the same gender and they are rewarded in kind through love, attachment, and sharing their life with someone they care about. The point the other guy was making was that from a biological perspective, there`s no value added (reproduction) to sex between members of the same gender.
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Male 876
BAM! Lacey said "IN YO FACE PAT-TAY!!"
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Male 1,086
also. orsome song, delta (:
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Male 1,086
pwned.
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Male 762
Excuse me... biologically* pointless.
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Male 1,312
BOOM headshot!
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Male 762
@Django

I think you are responding to my deleted post, I misread what he wrote, but my point stands.

But, I don`t think you can even call homosexuality pointless. It very well might be a species` response to over population. Overpopulation leads to large drops in population and an unstable fluctuation that ultimately leads to a population of zero.
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Female 1,677
Nice going Lacey (I`m assuming)! It`s 2010, I think people should start thinking for themselves. Being gay never hurt anybody (except the gays because they`re automatically judged and hated)-- worry about your own sex/love life and let others worry about theirs.
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Male 239
Actually there has been research into how emotions have a basis in logic, survival, and socio-psychological development. I don`t think he`s calling homosexuality a choice, but rather biologically pointless. Before anyone jumps on me, I actually support gay rights.
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Male 122
Basically I`ve read the bible too many times to believe in it anymore.
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Female 2,927
logic,knowledge, and rational for the win.
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Male 4,793
OWNED that stupid b*tch patti!
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Male 441
a lot of Christians like to pick on the `sin` of homosexuality because it is so blatant and out in the open, and it is so easy for people to say "Well I`m not that way, so that is a SIN!" Not to mention the minority aspect of it.

They do this because that way they don`t have to look at their own sins, they can focus on others.

I do disagree with a lot of people about Atheism being `better` than Religion. People are hate filled, no matter what. Religion isn`t why we hate, it`s an excuse to hate. Atheism would lead people to just finding different excuses.
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Male 794
and thats why i denounce all religions, atheism included, dont do to others what you would not want them do to you, and dont worry about things you cannot change, this advice was true 5000 years ago and it still true today
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Male 40,401
A complete yet concise smack to the head with Biblical passages :)
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Male 180
It`s amusing that most of these punishments prescribed in the Bible, including public execution for adultery, rape, murder, and homo sex, are meted out in public regularly in Muslim-dominant societies and nary a peep from the West. Yet a politically incorrect utterance kicks Christianity bashing into 5th gear.
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Male 9
So if the old testament was wrong about all of these things and should not be followed anymore, what about the creation, adam & eve and all of the other old testament stories? Only some of it`s true? How should I know what to believe and not to believe? And I thought the bible was the infallible word of god? Religion is confusing....
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Male 84
Okay two things: I hate to see non-religious calling religious people narrow minded. I won`t even bother explaining the irony, you should be able to pick up on it.
Fanaticism is certainly a dangerous thing, I`ll agree with that, but let`s not bash the whole institutional religion thing just because some people are full of hate. Truth is, I know pooty atheists just like I know pooty Christians.
Second, while homosexuality may not be a sin or "abnormal", it can justifiably be called illogical. That being said, it is very doubtful that it is a choice, and as such, the people should be greeted and treated with the same tolerance and care that people of all races and creeds (are supposed to) enjoy in this (USA) country.
Too bad people be trippin, ya`ll.
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Female 349
That`s a win for Lacey. Best explanation I`ve ever heard.
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Male 594
Michael: Love the sinner, hate the sin?

You`ve got to be kidding me. Since when does anyone decide that homosexuality is a sin? I don`t see anything sinful about it. And I`m not about to change my opinion/view on homosexuality just because some book claims that it`s abnormal.

Fully agreeing with the girl commenting in the picture. The bible has a warped way of viewing things. It was written a while ago, when people were incredibly narrow-minded. But as time progresses, we`re not executing women who have sex but arn`t married anymore, now are we?

Why? Because mankind finally realized that`s it`s completely illogical and unacceptable to do so.

It`s just a matter of time before religious fanatics reduce in numbers and the majority of the world will be able to look past nonsensical bullsh*t and view things from a more open-minded perspective.

But unfortunately, to this day still, people only see the incompatibility, but fail to see the bigger p
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Male 1,054
michaelscr

Sorry, but your post is deceitful and dishonest.

To declare homosexuality sin IS hate. Sin, in Christian theology is punishable by death and eternal damnation, and so when someone says `homosexuality is sin` they are saying that the intimate expression of love between two people of the same gender deserves death and eternal punishment.

Your comparison of homosexuality to druge abuse is hateful and degrading.

And "love the sinner, hate the sin` is heresy with no foundation in the Bible. And when the sin you hate is an innate part of someone, like their sexual orientation, it isn`t possible to hate their innate trait without hating them.

The reality is that all of the consequences of `homosexuality is sin` are destructive and abusive, it is only ever about hate, and it is a belief that only bears evil fruit. Jesus said it in Matthew 7 15-23: Evil fruit, like hate crimes, are proof of false teachers and false teaching.
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Female 1,963
Why can`t people just use the Bible (if they must use it) as a guide to living their own lives?
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Male 1,958
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Female 131
HAHAHAHAHAHHA she got TOLD!!!! Shell think twice next time!
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Male 2,850
"However, Science contradicts itself daily."

That`s because science is a process; a way of logically finding out the truth. It is not an already-packaged and provided explanation of the truth.

Science has contradictions because it is forever evolving and changing and improving; when science gets it wrong, it doesn`t stay wrong for long because it`ll get challenged and corrected when more is learned.

Whereas religious dogma just stays wrong forever.
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Male 497
there will come a time when everyone will know
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Male 5
@michaelcsr: Science contradicts itself daily, but at least scientists have the presence of mind to say "Hmm, something`s not right here. Let`s start over." Religious idiots just yell defamation if someone contradicts them.
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Male 762
@michaelcsr

I don`t care if one scientist`s opinion contradicts another`s. Science is not based upon opinion. I know that is hard for a theist to grasp, there are actually people on this planet who operate with evidence and facts.
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Male 47
pwnd
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Male 762
@michaelcsr

First off, you assume I have not read the whole Bible. And secondly no, no the contradictions do not clear up. That pitiful argument is just your safety net you whip out instead of dealing with the fact that the Bible does contradict itself.

And you go on to completely show your lack of understanding of science. A scientific theory, BY DEFINITION, is something that ALL evidence points to. As soon as something is shown to be incompatible with a theory it is thrown out and replaced. And again, the scientific method is not done by ONE SCIENTIST. It is the peer review system that galvenizes scientific method, something religion could never do, there is no consensus in religion, just everyone spouting whatever interpretation they want, but I suppose you would claim those people aren`t real Christians.
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Male 559
Unmerc, you are completly missing the point. Those contradictions only apear so because the person seeing them doesn`t know the WHOLE of the Bible. If you read the Book through and knew everything that was in it, those contradictions would clear themselves. However, Science contradicts itself daily. Show me any theory by one scientist, and I can show you the opinion of another scientist that is completly different. Especialy in the science of Medicine.
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Male 44
Most of the old testament is a drating joke added to keep children and ignorant in line. The only thing that matters is the new testament.

Stupid people that get stuck on that poo drive me nuts.
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Female 60
beautiful. the thing is, most of the reasons they had for those stipulations just dont apply anymore. you didn`t eat shellfish because during the time it took to transport, it would likely spoil. pork had parasites that we dont have to worry about so much anymore becuase of cooking methods and antibiotics. tattoos tended to be a sign of slavery. and the whole sex thing, well back then it was supposed to be just about reproduction, not so much happiness, love, or pleasure. men can`t reproduce with other men, so it was a waste. not sure on the other stuff, but given that i can see reasons behind most of them, the others where i don`t see one probably had some point as well.
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Male 559
Madest, let me correct you on one thing. Most Christians don`t hate gay people. The Bible tells them it`s wrong to be gay, but they hate the sin, not the sinner. They don`t hate homosexuals anymore than they hate jaywalkers, drug users or people who say God Damn in every other sentence. Christians, REAL Christians are taught to love one another. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
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Female 198
I have to say that Patti got OWNED!! But about 85% of what the chick said were from the old testament and stuff like that in the old testament has been rejected in the new testament-present
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Female 2,509
"Wearing garments of mixed fabrics? Uhm, what`s the reasoning, if any, behind that one?"

That`s why we have gays - they know the answer!
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Male 762
@michaelcsr

Again, as I just pointed out. You are admitting there are contradictions. That does not sound like the divinely inspired true word of a god now does it? For anyone to go around touting these morals saying they are the truth is asinine.
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Female 412
Read the book `The Year of Living Biblically` by A.J. Jacobs. Very funny and very interesting. Just gets a bit moralistic near the end.
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Male 8
@Fazerella

I believe it has something to do with living humble and not needing more than is required. I might be wrong though.
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Male 559
In the New Testimate, Jesus changes some of these issues. He says you can eat anything eddible (including Pork) if it is blessed. (In other words say your prayers.) Divorce is allowed for certian reasons, and the only people who can stone a sinner (for any sin) are those who are free from sin, you know, casting the first stone and all. Not saying it`s proof that the Christian Religion is right (as is my belief), just saying that before you start using Bible passages to argue against Christianity, make sure you know the WHOLE Bible.
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Male 2,688
Someone find me Lacey so I may add her. It`d be great to meet another intelligent and rational human being on Facebook.
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Male 10,338
Pwnd!
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Female 106
Wearing garments of mixed fabrics?

Uhm, what`s the reasoning, if any, behind that one?
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Male 182
@CrakrJak

Yes, didn`t you get the memo?
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Male 2,850
"Do we have to have another one of these religion based flame wars again?"

Yes, because they alleviate boredom.
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Male 182
As I read this in my head I couldn`t help but see it ending with a standing ovation. Amazingly well written post, it must have stung a bit after Patti read it. :)
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Female 330
you go lacey!!!!!
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Male 17,512
Do we have to have another one of these religion based flame wars again ?
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Male 2,850
@deeplick

Incorrect use of the word "whom" is far worse than incorrect use of the word "who"; as it betrays an attempt to appear more intelligent than you are; presumption is worse than ignorance.

Furthermore, the issue is about people who are gay, not about people who "want to be gay". Wanting implies choice, which you should know does not exist; you don`t choose your sexuality. However, you could be referring to the choice we do have: whether or not to accept your sexuality. So you could well be talking about people who have one sexuality, but identify with another, along the same lines as gender dysphoria. I doubt, though, that this is what you were trying to say, as such an obscure subgroup is unlikely to be representative of the whole.
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Male 762
@deeplick

Actually the Bible covers divorce on a few separate occasions. And you are right, in some of those passages there are circumstances that allow divorce, but they contradict other passages from other centuries. So, again, as the Facebook poster originally said, you can interpret how you wish, that doesn`t mean it isn`t completely ridiculous to do so.
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Male 39,614
psychologically people need a scape goat.
It`s not acceptable to hate other races or women or other faiths.
The only thing left is to hate gays.

It`s not biggotry...it`s religious freedom!

nah, it`s just biggotry
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Male 1,505
Wow. Patti got bodyslammed.
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Male 274
PWND!
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Male 505
I think i found this link on I-A-B but i`m not sure. Quite interesting.

Interesting read
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Male 2,850
Why do the religious work so hard to condemn us sinners anyway? Surely they believe that we`ll get our judgement and punishment after we die. So why do they feel they need to dish it out too?

Are they subbing for their god? Doing his work for him? Isn`t that a little insulting to their god, saying he can`t do his work properly and they need to step in to do it?
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Male 762
"The Quran doesn`t care what you do if you were never Muslim."

Other than you are an infidel and to be put to death.
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Male 234