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Date: 04/22/10 12:03 PM

226 Responses to Subway Anti-Abortion Poster Gets Modified [Pic]

  1. Profile photo of fancylad
    fancylad Male 30-39
    18834 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 12:17 pm
    Link: Subway Anti-Abortion Poster Gets Modified - The modifier makes a point...
  2. Profile photo of gorgack2000
    gorgack2000 Male 13-17
    4682 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 12:25 pm
    Argument in 3...2...1...
  3. Profile photo of Solvent
    Solvent Male 18-29
    2842 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 12:25 pm
    *Applause*
  4. Profile photo of The-Sentinel
    The-Sentinel Male 18-29
    1149 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 12:35 pm
    urm... how tactful xD
  5. Profile photo of PayN8tention
    PayN8tention Male 18-29
    907 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 12:37 pm
    Hahahah, I don`t care what they put behind that paper, this makes a wayyyyy better pro-life poster. Very clever.
  6. Profile photo of vancouverite
    vancouverite Female 18-29
    250 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 12:40 pm
    i like.
  7. Profile photo of TNoussis
    TNoussis Male 18-29
    63 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 12:42 pm
    Lol. Hunh, apparently if it doesn`t involve politics comments don`t explode over it.
  8. Profile photo of cobrakiller
    cobrakiller Male 18-29
    7470 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 12:43 pm
    thats funny
  9. Profile photo of baileyabb
    baileyabb Female 18-29
    896 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 12:45 pm
    F UCK YES! Someone give that individual a metal.
  10. Profile photo of Pheeshy5
    Pheeshy5 Male 18-29
    1312 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 12:49 pm
    haha, thats awesome, i`ll bet this pisses off some pro-life people
  11. Profile photo of MrsPoods
    MrsPoods Female 18-29
    547 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 12:51 pm
    Look, I`m pro-choice, but abortion DOES affect most women mentally and physically. And if you do choose to get an abortion you should seek the proper care to make sure your choice doesn`t have devastating repercussions for you. There, I said it. Now go to college and get that degree! Oh, and wear a condom next time.
  12. Profile photo of Thralk
    Thralk Male 18-29
    6 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 12:54 pm
    "I was irresponsible, and didn`t want to have to deal with the inconvenience of a baby! So I killed it and now I can care about ME. Its all about ME and MY dreams, nevermind the life I just ended! MeMemememmememem!"
  13. Profile photo of samidoll
    samidoll Female 18-29
    615 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 12:54 pm
    hear, hear!
  14. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 12:56 pm
    Abortion should be legal, just it should not be encouraged.

    Seriously, wear a goddamned condom.
  15. Profile photo of samidoll
    samidoll Female 18-29
    615 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 12:56 pm
    thralk, that`s just sad. you`re just sad. you really can`t see that not all women who get abortions are using abortion as a selfish birth control? yeah, it is about the woman. but its not like you`re strangling a fetus or ripping it out of the body. i really doubt you know anything about the process, you`re just very into the whole "murder" argument.
  16. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:02 pm
    If abortion were illegal who should go to jail? the mother? The doctor? Or the person who paid for it?
  17. Profile photo of davisboy
    davisboy Male 30-39
    587 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:05 pm
    Uh, samidoll, I don`t know where you learned how abortions are done, but that is pretty much what happens. Oh, except instead of strangling the baby to death, they are actually crushing the baby`s skull and smashing it up into a thousand tiny little pieces and vacuuming it all out with suction.
  18. Profile photo of Septemberex
    Septemberex Female 13-17
    646 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:08 pm
    I`m pro-life but not even for religious reasons. I think that even in the cases of rape, unless it threatens your life, abortion is completely wrong. I don`t see whats controversial about this. You are ending a LIFE. Depending on you doesn`t make it a parasite, it`s a living and developing human life, and killing it for personal reasons is completely irresponsible and messed up.

    Saying a fetus isn`t a full human life is like saying a two month old isn`t a human yet because it depends fully upon its mother and can`t survive on its own.
  19. Profile photo of PhantomX9
    PhantomX9 Male 13-17
    78 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:16 pm
    if a mother wants an Abortion let her have one.... im not pro or against Abortions i really don`t care what other people do,its all up to the freedom of choice...
  20. Profile photo of davisboy
    davisboy Male 30-39
    587 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:16 pm
    Madest, That`s like asking who should go to jail for a hit. The Hit man, the guy who paid for the hit, or the person who wanted the other person dead.

    Oh, and samidoll if you don`t believe my early post just go to youtube and find a video to watch, I was going to post one, but I couldn`t stomach watching the videos I found.
  21. Profile photo of GuardinGnome
    GuardinGnome Male 18-29
    2893 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:17 pm


  22. Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:24 pm
    D: wow that macro is.... pretty tasteless lol
  23. Profile photo of TxP
    TxP Female 70 & Over
    1190 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:25 pm
    september, its not about the dependency of the child, the controversy is over when a fetus can be deemed a human. past a certain point in pregnancy, yes it is a living being, but within a certain amount of time (someone mind filling in the hard facts for me?) it is an "undeveloped" fetus.
    thats where the issues arise
  24. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:25 pm
    shame!
  25. Profile photo of tuxman4
    tuxman4 Male 13-17
    368 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:26 pm
    Well, its ok to kill people in war, its ok to kill people for religious reasons (crusades), its ok to kill people for breaking the law, its ok to kill people for supposedly breaking the law, and its ok to kill people if the government says so. I don`t see how abortion is horribly wrong compared to all the other reasons we kill people.
  26. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:27 pm
    Saying a fetus isn`t a full human life is like saying a two month old isn`t a human yet because it depends fully upon its mother and can`t survive on its own.

    I`ll say what I said on the last abortion post...

    Every child deserves to be loved.

    Game over. I win.
  27. Profile photo of scotchbot
    scotchbot Female 18-29
    171 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:27 pm
    absolutely brilliant.
    oh and Thralk, go fall under a bus.
  28. Profile photo of _kiersten_
    _kiersten_ Female 18-29
    1682 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:27 pm
    lmao @ Gnome.

    Also, how clever of this person XD
  29. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7560 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:28 pm
    abortion should be legal for numerous reasons. However- I feel the upper limit should be lower than it is here, it should not be allowed to be used as a form of birth control so that in some way those women who repeatedly resort to it are made to use effective birth control.
  30. Profile photo of JohnXian
    JohnXian Male 18-29
    40 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:29 pm
    And now your son or daughter will never get their chance to do the same.

    Hooray for selfishness!

  31. Profile photo of _kiersten_
    _kiersten_ Female 18-29
    1682 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:30 pm
    Abortion to me is fine. Just don`t use it as a means of birth control. Thats a little gross.
  32. Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:38 pm
    Abortion is not often used as a form of birth control. I`ve never had an abortion, but I hear it is not exactly a fun experience, and it ain`t cheap either. It`s not the most attractive method of birth control out there, and I`m sure most women would rather go on the pill or use a rubber than have a vacuum cleaner stuck up through their cervix every few months. The whole "women use abortion as a means of birth control" thing is so exaggerated.
  33. Profile photo of Angelmassb
    Angelmassb Male 18-29
    15511 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:42 pm
    Education is the key. There is no other way
  34. Profile photo of HappyAbes
    HappyAbes Female 18-29
    78 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 1:44 pm
    My aunty had a baby at 16 years old. She`s still with the same man now, happily married, and has more money than all my family. On the other hand, im all for abortions if thats what you really want.
  35. Profile photo of NoArms5534
    NoArms5534 Male 18-29
    196 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 2:02 pm
    Good point, JohnXian.
  36. Profile photo of rainbowfarts
    rainbowfarts Female 18-29
    798 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 2:02 pm
    "And now your son or daughter will never get their chance to do the same."

    If you`re a 16 year old girl having a kid chances are you wouldn`t have the resources to send them to college e.g. a decent job that required a college degree where you can make money to send them to college.
  37. Profile photo of Septemberex
    Septemberex Female 13-17
    646 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 2:02 pm
    You`re ending a life to have a second chance at yours.
  38. Profile photo of FlameOfUdun
    FlameOfUdun Male 18-29
    1222 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 2:14 pm
    It`s not exactly "hard" not getting pregnant.
  39. Profile photo of Lokiii
    Lokiii Male 18-29
    7 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 2:16 pm
    It`s the woman`s body. If you don`t want an abortion, just don`t have one.
    The plain and simple truth is no one has the right to tell some woman what she can and can`t do with her vag. Stay outta peoples sexual/religious business. Gawd.
  40. Profile photo of dax2009
    dax2009 Female 50-59
    322 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 2:18 pm
    It`s my body. i.e. none of your business
  41. Profile photo of Isseepy
    Isseepy Female 18-29
    160 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 2:27 pm
    It`s not the woman`s body that`s most affected. It`s the baby`s body. I`m sick and tired of people turning this into a woman`s rights deal. We`d still be having the abortion controversy even if men could give birth. It`s just for biological reasons that they can`t.
  42. Profile photo of ElDavo
    ElDavo Male 18-29
    2149 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 2:35 pm
    This argument is retarded. In the end, it isn`t your right to force the ability to decide out of the hands of whom the decision impacts.

    I admire anti-abortionists for standing by their beliefs, just do it more quietly because I don`t care.
  43. Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 2:37 pm
    It`s not women`s right, it`s HUMAN rights. No one at anytime should be able to force someone else to do something to their body.

    What if you were ordered to give up a kidney for another person because that other person would die without it? Sure, you can live without that kidney so your body would be affected less than the person who would die without it, but it`s your goddamn body and you should be able to decide wtf happens to it.
  44. Profile photo of Schro
    Schro Female 18-29
    77 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 2:40 pm
    It`s not a baby its a fetus
  45. Profile photo of ElDavo
    ElDavo Male 18-29
    2149 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 2:43 pm
    Isseepy: Nobody with half a brain ever turns this into a "women`s rights deal", it`s a moral issue. If men got pregnant, it would still be the same debate. That is, a moral issue not a men`s rights issue.
  46. Profile photo of ElDavo
    ElDavo Male 18-29
    2149 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 2:48 pm
    If you really want to force women to have babies without their own choice of abortion or not, how about you raise the drating kid?

    The fact is that not everyone is fit to be a parent, especially those that don`t even want their own kids. I`d rather eliminate an embryo than bring a child into this world so they can suffer for 18 years.
  47. Profile photo of janus_games
    janus_games Male 18-29
    294 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 2:51 pm
    You`re ending a life to have a second chance at yours.

    Yes, that`s exactly what women are doing. By that statement, understand that in order to desire a second chance, you must realize something has gone wrong with the first chance.

    I always hated the "all life is sacred" argument. I think quality of life for a community is sacred. I think an abortion option preserves that.

    People who make the choice to have an abortion shouldn`t do so as alternative b.c. and it`s only because human stupidity knows no bounds that I won`t say I don`t think anyone would be that stupid to use it that way.

    A person should be free to chose abortion because they wouldn`t be able to provide for their child in a way that would benefit themselves, their child, and the community.

    Personally, I`d be fine if the choice of a second abortion meant forced sterilization. You`ve already shown yourself to be incredibly unlucky or incapable of
  48. Profile photo of Tay-Dor
    Tay-Dor Male 40-49
    265 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 2:53 pm
    Its not a rights issue at all. Its a "stop being stupid" issue. You don`t want to have a baby, don`t have sex. Pretty damn simple.

    You want to do the deed, you gotta deal with the potential consequences.
  49. Profile photo of ElDavo
    ElDavo Male 18-29
    2149 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 2:56 pm
    For the sake of adding statistics into this argument:
    The vast majority of abortions occur at or before 10 weeks of pregnancy. At this stage, the only organs that have any operation whatsoever are the lungs, and their motion is for the purpose of strengthening the muscles and not providing oxygen to the body.

    This, to me, means the drating thing isn`t alive, and should still be classified as an abnormal internal growth which the woman has the right to choose to remove, if she so pleases.
  50. Profile photo of janus_games
    janus_games Male 18-29
    294 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 2:57 pm
    If men got pregnant, it would still be the same debate. That is, a moral issue not a men`s rights issue.

    Not at all. If men got pregnant there would be no issue. It would be legal. It would interfere with men`s perceived role in the societal contract, an impact against our "manliness" and our ability to strap ourselves up by our bootstraps.
  51. Profile photo of ElDavo
    ElDavo Male 18-29
    2149 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:02 pm
    Tay-dor: Now that`s just plain stupid.

    1st: Sexual urges are a natural part of human anatomy. Now, I`m saying this means you can`t control yourself, I`m just saying this means you`re favoring the resistance of one part of nature for the sole sake of not encountering another part.

    2nd: Forcing a person to be responsible for ANOTHER person`s life because they`ve proven irresponsible in the case of their own is not only stupid, it`s potentially dangerous.

    3rd: It`s a moral issue and a rights issue. You`re an idiot for even TRYING to say otherwise.
  52. Profile photo of ElDavo
    ElDavo Male 18-29
    2149 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:03 pm
    janus: There would still be people who think abortion is "immoral" and fight it. The debate would still exist, and that`s all I said.
  53. Profile photo of pnolan
    pnolan Male 18-29
    64 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:10 pm
    Okay, if you are anti abortion, and you are not willing to spend a ton of extra tax dollars to help tons of women who are in situations where they cannot afford the medical bills, the food, the time, the risk of having kids, or you are not willing to let these mothers live in your house until they are able to support themselves and their child,

    Then shut up. Your opinion doesn`t matter, because you are not willing to do anything about it.

    Abortion isn`t "good" to anyone, but in certain instances, it is much better than having a completely unprepared, ill equipped mother. Did she make a poor choice? Yes. Should she and the child BOTH suffer? No.
  54. Profile photo of ZNaught
    ZNaught Male 13-17
    351 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:11 pm
    @ElDavo: The pro-abortion "scholars" no longer argue that the baby is not a human being. If that argument is no longer made by the scholarly people of society, why would you waste your time trying to make it?

    However, if someone made the choice to have sex, they should face the consequences. They can always put a child up for adoption.

    @madduck: In what cases should it be allowed?

    @Lokiii: She can do whatever she wants with her vag. However, when she conceives another human being, it is no longer her right to determine what happens to the human being she conceived. (I mean she has no right to kill it)
  55. Profile photo of ZNaught
    ZNaught Male 13-17
    351 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:12 pm
    @pnolan: There is something known as adoption. That is a simple solution. With adoption she can still go on with her life and the child is not murdered. I don`t see how that is not a valid solution.
  56. Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:14 pm
    "Its not a rights issue at all."

    Only if you impute a "soul" to a mass of developing tissue does abortion become problematic. For me, lacking faith in a god, its not a baby until viability. Until then, its a part of the woman`s body, and she can do whatever she wants with it.

    I agree it shouldn`t be used as birth-control. Instead, women should use prescription birth control. But anti-abortion types are ALSO opposed to that.
  57. Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:14 pm
    "With adoption she can still go on with her life and the child is not murdered."

    I see you`re open minded on the issue.
  58. Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:15 pm
    "when she conceives another human being, it is no longer her right to determine what happens to the human being she conceived. (I mean she has no right to kill it)"

    Oh, I see, it becomes YOUR RIGHT to tell her what to do....
  59. Profile photo of NinjaB0b
    NinjaB0b Male 18-29
    173 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:17 pm
    it almost feels like this issue stared over people not wanting to pay extra taxes for government ran abortion clinics then used "morality" to back their argument
  60. Profile photo of SmilinSam
    SmilinSam Female 18-29
    3599 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:17 pm
    ok so if there are people who dont like it, why try to force everybody to have your same opinion? why make it ILLEGAL for someone to have thier own choice? this is such a stupid argument, because one side is for a CHOICE and the other side is for FORCING OBEDIENCE... i just don`t get how people that are against abortion can`t let other people make their own decisions. it`s not like the people that are pro-choice are saying ABORTIONS FOR EVERYONE!! KILL ALL THE BABIES OF THE WORLD!!! YOU MUST GET AN ABORTION IF YOU DON`T OWN A HOME AND A CAR AND MAKE 40+K A YEAR!!! YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN ABORTION IF YOU HAVEN`T BEEN TO COLLEGE!! HAVE ONE IF YOU ARE IN DEBT!!!! yeah, they aren`t saying that, they are simply for having the OPTION TO CHOOSE if you want or not. so all the people that are against them still have their right to NOT HAVE ONE. they are trying to force their own beliefs on others, and would have alot better chances of making a difference if they would educate people on WHY.
  61. Profile photo of janus_games
    janus_games Male 18-29
    294 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:17 pm
    @Davo: I disagree. Men trend toward moving out their freedoms strongly especially in terms of societal contract. Explain to me how many purely men`s rights moral issues we have wrt our own bodies now?

    The only men`s rights issue I`ve even been made aware of is wrt the mostly unfair burden the male assumes with child and ex-spousal support, and the thing stopping us from equality there is...our perceived role in the societal contract. The man is still provider even for women he puts aside.

    This was fine when women were stuck in their role, but women today have freed themselves to a large extent, they get jobs, they got the vote, they`re taken seriously. Look at them cling to the idea chivalry and men`s roles though. It`s a double standard.
  62. Profile photo of SmilinSam
    SmilinSam Female 18-29
    3599 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:18 pm
    ooh big one, sorry bout that.
  63. Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:18 pm
    Thats all I`ll say, I respect the strong views here. No debates. No court can say when a person gains a soul. Thats for philosophers and theologians to debate.

    All courts and government can say is when a fetus becomes viable outside the womb, and that is the line.
  64. Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:19 pm
    In NO OTHER SITUATION is anyone ever forced to give up life or limb for another human being unless they CHOOSE to do so. Why the heck should this be any different? It is not my responsibility to save anyone else`s life. Consider that selfish if you wish, but I doubt you`d be willing to let a stranger stay in your home for free or give up your organs while alive to save someone you don`t know.

    Also, I still don`t consider a fetus a "person".
  65. Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:21 pm
    I agree abortions are bad, so lets educate young women on proper birth-control methods, instead of Palinesque "abstinence only" education. We see how well that worked out.

    OH, and Palin`s first child was born 8 months after she got married....Abstinence only, pssssh.
  66. Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:22 pm
    "Also, I still don`t consider a fetus a "person".

    Neither do courts.
  67. Profile photo of ZNaught
    ZNaught Male 13-17
    351 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:22 pm
    @goaliejerry: Considering it is a human being, killing the child is murder. That makes it no different than if I were to say murder you.

    @SmilinSam: Your right. I think we should also allow people to kill their children after birth. Why does it matter? It is still their child. We have no say over how they raise their children.
    Unless you think murder is okay, and that we should allow murder, your argument is completely invalid.
  68. Profile photo of Isseepy
    Isseepy Female 18-29
    160 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:22 pm
    I agree with goaliejerry. If you think the only two options are abortion and a poor life for the baby, you`re a dumbass. There are other people who want children and can`t have them. Also, stop correcting me because I`m very opinionated and possibly pregnant (with a pooload of maternal instincs), so my mind is not changing.
  69. Profile photo of ZNaught
    ZNaught Male 13-17
    351 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:24 pm
    @pui: Because they chose to have sex and have the child. In doing so they were aware of the possibility of conceiving.

  70. Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:25 pm
    So if you crash your car into another car and the person in the other car is mortally wounded and needs a kidney, it is now your responsibility to save his or her life and donate the organ?

    NO.
  71. Profile photo of chunkymonkie
    chunkymonkie Male 13-17
    670 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:25 pm
    Basically we`re paying for dumb bitches to kill their child.
  72. Profile photo of ElDavo
    ElDavo Male 18-29
    2149 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:26 pm
    ZNaught: I`ll dignify that with a response only because I`m bored.

    1) I don`t give a poo what scholars are arguing. "Life" is a somewhat abstract concept. I`ll define it the way I see fit, in the same way I`ll define a painting as "art" or splotches of paint on a convas that someone else called "art".

    2) It amazes me that you even made a point like "adoption is an option". How can it be immoral to abort, but be totally right to have a child with the sole intent of leaving it in a situation where it has no stable home, familial support structure, etc.?

    Please respond. I`m not so interested in your reaction to #1, but I`d love to see you attempt to defend yourself in #2.
  73. Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:27 pm
    "Considering it is a human being"

    We disagree. A pile of cells with the "potential" to be a human being is not a human being, and are NOT a human being until they can survive outside the mother.

    My sperm have "potential" to be a human being, but I "discard" them, um, frequently, without moral conundrum.

    I believe I understand your view, I just don`t view a growing mass of cells to be a "person" until it can live on its own, which is the legal point after which abortions may be regulated.
  74. Profile photo of ZNaught
    ZNaught Male 13-17
    351 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:27 pm
    @pui: Well did you do something stupid that caused the crash? Then you should pay the medical expenses. How is giving birth even close to giving a kidney?
  75. Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:29 pm
    "That makes it no different than if I were to say murder you."

    Destroying a growing mass of cells without a developed nervous system capable of sustaining itself is different than killing me.
  76. Profile photo of SmilinSam
    SmilinSam Female 18-29
    3599 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:29 pm
    @Znaught: do you hear yourself?
  77. Profile photo of dotrom
    dotrom Female 18-29
    92 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:30 pm
    Our world is suffering from over-population, and as such I commend everyone brave enough to get an abortion instead of adding to the problem.
  78. Profile photo of Isseepy
    Isseepy Female 18-29
    160 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:31 pm
    @SmilinSam Not donating a kidney is one thing. You`re not directly responsible for that person`s death. Smashing a baby`s head and chopping it into bits is an entirely different matter.
  79. Profile photo of SmilinSam
    SmilinSam Female 18-29
    3599 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:32 pm
    and BTW i`m not trying to delve into your moral debate here, i`m just trying to say that NOBODY should be able to force their own opinions on someone else through abuse of THE LAW. make it a debate, make it an issue of morality sure, but when you start in on my FREEDOMS, i get a little upset. (and seriously? is the murder argument all you got? cuz if someone doesn`t believe it`s murder youa re making a moot point.)
  80. Profile photo of rainbowfarts
    rainbowfarts Female 18-29
    798 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:32 pm
    @ ZNaught

    How about you get a lesson in economics and biology further than high school. Adoption not only costs tax payers a lot of money but do you understand how much a woman`s body endures because of pregnancy. Adoption is not an end all solution.

    And besides it doesn`t matter if you`re against abortion, you will never have to make that decision since you`re male so how about you leave it to individual women to decide for themselves. K?
  81. Profile photo of ElDavo
    ElDavo Male 18-29
    2149 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:32 pm
    janus: Men made the rules, so of course there won`t be a case where men`s rights need protecting from women.

    I think if there were a case where a man could legally do something that violated the moral standard of another person, it WOULD be challenged.
  82. Profile photo of ZNaught
    ZNaught Male 13-17
    351 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:32 pm
    @ElDavo: 1) What do you define as a human? It is clear that you will simply choose something as to suit your side of the argument. I`m sure that if abortion did not exist, it would not be hard to come to the consensus that a fetus is indeed human. However it is far easier to call it not human to make someone`s life easier when they drat it up because they make poor choices.

    2) You act as if everything that is bad is equally so. However you cannot argue that punching someone is just as bad as killing them. Just as giving someone up for adoption is far less of an evil than murdering them. Sure, it is not an ideal situation, but much more preferred.

    @goaliejerry:
  83. Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:32 pm
    "Well did you do something stupid that caused the crash? Then you should pay the medical expenses."
    The government or law should have the right to take money away from people as punishment or to "make up for" what they did, but under no circumstances should the government be able to seize or control your organs, even if it would save someone else`s life.

    How is giving birth even close to giving a kidney?
    You can give birth and recover much like you can give a kidney and recover. However, no one should have to do either without choosing to do so.
  84. Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:33 pm
    ****must****resist****pull of political and ethical debate with good people who view morality and the soul differently than I******

    Lets just agree that less abortions would be better. And IMO that begins with truthful education for young women that treats them with respect and acknowledges that many will have sex outside of marriage for pleasure and not procreation, as is their individual right.
  85. Profile photo of ZNaught
    ZNaught Male 13-17
    351 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:33 pm
    whoops clicked post reply too soon. Anyway see my above reply to ElDavo.

    However, I have part of a paper to write and must continue this discussion in maybe a half hour.
  86. Profile photo of BrimstoneOne
    BrimstoneOne Male 30-39
    2229 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:34 pm
    `With adoption she can still go on with her life and the child is not murdered.`

    Another kid that`s abused, neglected, then abandoned by child services. And it more acute in the States, where state governments are going broke and are cutting services left, right and center.

    Yeah adoption is the way to go if someone actually adopts the kids, most foster homes care, but its still the bottom line and these kids are far more worse off than the unemployed, the poor or even immigrants.
  87. Profile photo of SmilinSam
    SmilinSam Female 18-29
    3599 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:35 pm
    "Lets just agree that less abortions would be better. And IMO that begins with truthful education for young women that treats them with respect and acknowledges that many will have sex outside of marriage for pleasure and not procreation, as is their individual right."

    i agree COMPLETELY thank you for some unbiased thinking
  88. Profile photo of Isseepy
    Isseepy Female 18-29
    160 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:36 pm
    I`m about to go batpoo crazy on everyone in this forum. I`m officially removing myself from this conversation.
  89. Profile photo of AppleBlue
    AppleBlue Female 18-29
    119 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:36 pm
    What to do with an unplanned pregnancy at a young age is a very hard thing to decide. why is the responsibility and blame all ways on the woman? the man was an equal partner in the creation of this life, she should have equal responsibility of the fate of it.

    I think that it is easy for allot of people to dictate about this issue because they never have nor will be in a position to make this choice.
  90. Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:36 pm
    Isseepy, oooh I`m so scared!

    lol
  91. Profile photo of SmilinSam
    SmilinSam Female 18-29
    3599 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:39 pm
    i love it when people say "smash a baby`s skull and suck it out" because that just lets me know how little these people actually know about abortions. while it is true that there are late-term abortions where it is a bit more gruesome than the early ones, most abortions are done before the tissues have even really formed a distinguishable body or anything. so to say that sucking up some undeveloped tissue is crushing up a babies skull is just scare tactics and fear-mongering. making people imagine the gerber baby getting hit with a concrete block...
  92. Profile photo of ElDavo
    ElDavo Male 18-29
    2149 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:42 pm
    ZNaught:
    1) If you can`t survive on your own, you aren`t alive. By "survive on your own", I mean you can properly process food, water, and oxygen to sustain yourself.
    To counter your next point before you make it: Given a baby can`t PROVIDE these things for itself, it can survive on its own GIVEN these things. A fetus can`t (prior the last 10-15 weeks, at which point I oppose abortion anyway).

    2) It`s not murder, as the thing isn`t alive. Having a baby with the intent of giving it away is worse than removing an abnormal growth from your body. Murder is worse than both of those, but it`s quite irrelevant.
  93. Profile photo of BrimstoneOne
    BrimstoneOne Male 30-39
    2229 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:45 pm
    As far as I`m aware, the fetus is considered part of the mother/woman`s body until it (the fetus) is either aborted or delivered according to medical/science journals that I`ve read.

    The semantics of the issue seems to be in the public perception of the arguments made in court rulings and religious nut cases debating and baiting on corporate media.
  94. Profile photo of ElDavo
    ElDavo Male 18-29
    2149 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 3:47 pm
    @Whoever said there are people who want kids but can`t have them:
    It isn`t society`s responsibility to find you a kid. You go put an ad in the paper or whatever, do what you have to do to find unplanned babies that the parents are willing to give away. Clearly there are unplanned pregnancies in couples that don`t consider abortion viable, and they can be willing to give up their baby.
  95. Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:03 pm
    It`s the womans (and to a lessor extent, the mans) decision whether to have an abortion or not. It has nothing to do with anyone else. I hate morality preachers
  96. Profile photo of ZNaught
    ZNaught Male 13-17
    351 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:14 pm
    @goaliejerry: Not really. The only difference is that the fetus is in a different stage of life. It is still human, it just isn`t fully grown.

    @rainbowfarts: Except there are non-government adoptions services... The woman should have thought about what she would need to endure before partaking in sex. People should suffer for poor decisions they make.

    Except I don`t believe that humans should be murdered. I don`t believe that we would let criminals decide the fate of innocent people and be allowed to murder them. Maybe we should let criminals decide that as well. Make murder legal.

    @pui: However the baby is not taking your organs for life. You consented to the possibility of pregnancy when you partook in sexual activities. Just as you consented to having to pay for someones medical bills when you choose to text while driving.

    @goaliejerry: However the purpose of sex is procreation. The two cannot be separated. Abortion is not a right. If it is, plea
  97. Profile photo of LameName
    LameName Female 18-29
    238 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:21 pm
    ABORTIONS ARE NOBODY`S BUSINESS BUT MY GODDAMNED OWN. Seriously dead-horse.
  98. Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:22 pm
    You`re missing the point. It doesn`t matter if your organs are being taken or if they are just being borrowed. As soon as it involves your body and your organs, the government does not and should not have any control, even if it saves another life. Regardless of anything you may have done to get to the point where someone else needs your body. Period.
  99. Profile photo of strangedays
    strangedays Female 18-29
    39 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:22 pm
    ZNaught:
    So are you telling me you`re going to remain a virgin until your married and since sex is for procreation, you`re only going to have it a few times in your life, for however many kids you want?
    Sex isn`t a poor decision. It`s something people do for fun, to express love, relieve stress, and a bunch of other reasons. Not using protection is a poor decision, but if a condom breaks or birth control fails, the lives of the parents shouldn`t have to be destroyed and revolve around taking care of something 24/7 for the next 20 or so years over a small accident that can be reversable.
  100. Profile photo of ElDavo
    ElDavo Male 18-29
    2149 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:22 pm
    ZNaught, I`m gonna go ahead and speak for everyone you just replied to: YOU ARE AN IDIOT. Your arguments are just so closed-minded and stupid that they can`t be taken seriously. I feel an odd combination of anger/frustration/pity when I read what seem to be serious points you`re trying to make.
  101. Profile photo of rainbowfarts
    rainbowfarts Female 18-29
    798 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:23 pm
    @Znaught

    First you need to stop calling it murder. As it has already been said here a fetus is incapable of living outside of the womb (i.e. it can`t survive if separated from the woman`s body). Many states won`t even charge 2 counts of murder if the victim was a pregnant woman because that fetus is not a guaranteed life.

    And also that mistake that a woman makes is not only she has to suffer through (which you think is ok and deserved) but regardless of being put up for adoption that child is likely to have a crappy life that they did not ask for. I don`t think any type of "punishment" you`re suggesting for a woman accidentally getting pregnant is worth wrecking multiple lives and adding to an already overpopulated world.

    And besides it`s not like post-abortion women are waving around their aborted fetuses in your face. It doesn`t concern you.
  102. Profile photo of ElDavo
    ElDavo Male 18-29
    2149 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:25 pm
    Strange: But... ABORTION IS MURDER!! HOW ARE YOU NOT GETTING THIS?!? YOU ARE KILLING AN INNOCENT CHILD!! OBEY MY MORAL CODE, IGNORE YOUR OWN!!

    </sarcasm>
  103. Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:29 pm
    Ha ha ha, your naivety is so funny ZNaught...you really need to live life a little before you start judging..."The woman should have thought about what she would need to endure before partaking in sex" - that`s hilarious
  104. Profile photo of ElDavo
    ElDavo Male 18-29
    2149 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:29 pm
    rainbow: The problem is that ZNaught has convinced himself that it is murder, the punishment is just, and somehow it does concern him. He thinks his opinions on all three of these matters gives him the right to intervene in anybody`s life, despite the fact that they are, in the end, only opinions.
  105. Profile photo of mvangild
    mvangild Male 30-39
    527 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:30 pm
    ElDavo,

    1) If you can`t survive on your own, you aren`t alive.
    The issue I have with this is that, by your definition, none of the cells in your body are alive. I`m pretty sure that`s not what you intended, but that`s how it sounded.

    Given a baby can`t PROVIDE these things for itself, it can survive on its own GIVEN these things. A fetus can`t....
    I fail to see the difference here. All life forms require a non-hostile environment in which to survive, as well as fuel (i.e. food, water, oxygen). Neither a baby nor a fetus can provide these items for itself; they must be provided. In the fetus`s case, that fuel is the nutrients in the mother`s bloodstream.

    2) It`s not murder, as the thing isn`t alive.
    You don`t believe it`s murder, fine. That`s your belief. I believe it is. I think it is horrendous to kill something just because it doesn`t fit into your schedule. But I won`t force my beliefs on others. They have to make that choice; not m
  106. Profile photo of ZNaught
    ZNaught Male 13-17
    351 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:34 pm
    @BrimstoneOne: Then we should be looking to reform and fix those. Should we not? Seems like a much better solution that murder. At least with adoption they have a chance for a life.

    @AppleBlue: It is the woman who is blamed because she is the one that can have a baby. She knows the possibility of an unplanned pregnancy and deserves to have her life interrupted.

    @SmilinSam: However the only difference is how much the human has grown. It is still a human regardless of the stage of development. If it is with a skull, then it is without as well.

    @ElDavo: However some people cannot properly do those things either without the aid of machines. Yet we still consider these people to be human. I was never going to make the argument you thought.

    How is it "abnormal" when it is made by a processes that the body intentionally does and does not come by errors in genetic information. I think I have sufficiently argued the point on "human" in t
  107. Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:37 pm
    Mvangild: "You don`t believe it`s murder, fine. That`s your belief. I believe it is. I think it is horrendous to kill something just because it doesn`t fit into your schedule. But I won`t force my beliefs on others. They have to make that choice; not m"

    That clears it up then, as long as you never have an abortion, everything will be fine.
  108. Profile photo of ElDavo
    ElDavo Male 18-29
    2149 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:39 pm
    mvangild: 1) Cells aren`t individual organisms, so no, my definition wasn`t intended to cover them.

    Fetuses get nutrients from the mother, which is exactly why they are different from babies. It requires nutrients, but doesn`t even have functioning organs. It has a biological inability to obtain the proper nutrients, while a baby has more of a practical inability.

    2) You stated your opinion, proceeded to claim it as your own opinion, and said you wouldn`t force it on anybody. I can respect this position.
  109. Profile photo of korahn
    korahn Male 30-39
    1300 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:40 pm
    God believes in abortion. That`s why there are miscarriages and stillbirths.
  110. Profile photo of ZNaught
    ZNaught Male 13-17
    351 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:41 pm
    @BrimstoneOne: You really think a medical journal would go against a source of it`s industry`s income?

    @LameName: Maybe argue against some of my points with reason instead of making unbacked statements.
    @pui: Except in the case you provided, there are other ways for the person to survive. (Other people donate organs you know!) However in the case of a fetus, there is no way to keep the baby alive after an abortion...

    @strangedays: I never said that. However I would be aware of the risk I would be taking and would not murder to simply make my life easier. When someone undergoes sexual activity, they should be aware of what the possible repercussions are. So yes, they should have their lives "destroyed" if they cannot properly make their own decisions.

    @ElDavo: Look, if you can`t seem to argue my points and can only insult me, don`t bother responding to be at all.

  111. Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:44 pm
    "It is the woman who is blamed because she is the one that can have a baby. She knows the possibility of an unplanned pregnancy and deserves to have her life interrupted." - Perhaps we should stone these women too so they`ll never do it again.
  112. Profile photo of Surelyucantb
    Surelyucantb Male 30-39
    44 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:44 pm
    I got aborted once, it wasn`t so bad
  113. Profile photo of rainbowfarts
    rainbowfarts Female 18-29
    798 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:44 pm
    I really don`t understand why this is an argument at all. If you don`t want an abortion don`t get one. If you don`t agree with abortions, make sure you`re with someone (date, marry, etc.) who has the same belief. The people who choose to have an abortion do not interrupt your life, my life, or anybody`s life in any way so let it be.
  114. Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:45 pm
    No. Even if I had a rare blood type and no other person could donate an organ for this dying person except me, and without my kidney he/she would die, I would STILL not be obligated by the government to give up my kidney. There is absolutely NO CASE in which someone should be forced to use their body for the benefit of someone else.
  115. Profile photo of pnolan
    pnolan Male 18-29
    64 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:45 pm
    @ZNaught:
    Again, anyone who is anti-abortion, and unwilling to do anything personally to help the mothers- you have no right to an opinion. If you are willing to take them in, or directly give them assistance or money, you can tell them they can`t get abortions.

    I know a lot of young girls who are pregnant. Pregnancy is not free. You have to get checkups on your baby. You have to have your baby delivered. Pregnancy is not easy. They go through aches and pains, they need extra food, and at a certain point, regardless of whether they choose to give it up for adoption, they have to miss a lot of work (and if they work a crappy job, which many young mothers do, they do not get reimbursed for those days,)

    Banning abortion means that there will still be abortions, but it will be a lot more grisly and dangerous. It means that there will be a lot more UNWANTED children filling up adoption centers.

  116. Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:47 pm
    ZNaught: When someone undergoes sexual activity, they should be aware of what the possible repercussions are. -
    Wow, I bet your life is a barrel of laughs.
  117. Profile photo of ZNaught
    ZNaught Male 13-17
    351 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:48 pm
    @rainbowfarts: Reread some of the other stuff I have said... It is better to have a chance for life than none at all. What the people with your argument should focus on is improving those lives so that it is not an issue. LOL The world is far from overpopulated. Link

    @aikiman: How is it hilarious? If people make mistakes they should not get "bailed out".

    @korahn: No. You clearly do not understand christianity, so why even comment using religion if you do not understand it? Despite what you may think about chrsitianity, we do not believe that everyone dies because God chooses to kill them. Even if that was the case, humans do not have the authority to make the same decisions.
  118. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:52 pm
    Are all anti-abortionists vegan?

    It`d strike me as odd to fight against killing innocent creatures, then eat a burger.
  119. Profile photo of ElDavo
    ElDavo Male 18-29
    2149 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:52 pm
    ZNaught:
    1) Reforming the law to fit your personal agenda/moral code is not better than "murder" (just call it abortion, please?).

    2) You actually made a decent point here. I mean, it isn`t really that relevant, but it`s a decent point.

    3) No. You can`t define anything as a "human" like that. Have you seen how closely the embryo of a human resembles that of just about every other mammal?

    And finally) Advances in modern medical science can continue the life of a fully developed human, yet it still can`t keep a partially-developed fetus alive. A fetus is less alive than the example you gave.

    A fetus is an abnormal growth because it isn`t a normal growth. In all of recorded medicine, a human body has never grown in that fashion when growing properly. Calling a fetus an "abnormal growth" is more legitimate than calling abortion "murder".
  120. Profile photo of ZNaught
    ZNaught Male 13-17
    351 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:56 pm
    @aikiman: I don`t see why...

    @rainbowfarts: Well I think it is murder. You think it is wrong that people are innocently killed in genocides and that they should be prevented, at the same time I think abortions should be. Had we known about the holocaust prior to actually invading Germany, we would have still gone to war for that reason (had we not gone to war because of the invasion of other countries). In the same way I think that the murder of innocent children should be prevented.

    @pui: I still don`t think you read my post well enough, your just spitting out the same information again.

    @pnolan: If I had the means to do so, I would help them. I could care less how much of a burden it is for the pregnant woman, she knew the risk. Again, a chance at life is far better than none at all.

    @aikiman: You seem unable to actually argue against my reasoning with your own. Look, if you can only "argue" using insults, refrain from it entirely.
  • Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:59 pm
    @pui, you could argue that there is one condition where your body can be taken to benefit others; organ transplant after you die.

    As you could argue that a dead body is like an abandoned house; the owner has now vacated the body.

    I guess it`s then up to the next of kin. Personally, I`d much prefer organ donation when you die to be opt out (they get taken unless your will/etc says otherwise) rather than the current opt-in...certainly when people are dying on transplant waiting lists.

    Oops, I got sidetracked. Sorry.
  • Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 4:59 pm
    @ZNaught: How is it hilarious? If people make mistakes they should not get "bailed out".
    Now just think about what you`ve said there in the wider context and tell me again that you beleive no-one should get bailed out if they make a mistake. Your mother never put a band aid on your knee when you fell over, you don`t beleive in any form of social welfare, you don`t beleive in allowing bankruptcy. You really do have a lot to learn about living.
  • Profile photo of strangedays
    strangedays Female 18-29
    39 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:00 pm
    ZNaught: Way to make a valid argument by using a link to a BLOG! Yes, since every word there is scholarly and peer reviewed. The world is overpopulated. If it wasn`t, then why isn`t there enough food to feed everyone? Sure there is a lot of "empty space" on earth, but only 1/3 of that is actual land, and a very small portion of that can be used for agriculture. Not enough to sustain the amount of people we have on earth now, let alone more.

    Take this into consideration: If you say abortion is murder, then if a pregnant woman would lose control of her car, crash, and have a miscarriage, would you call it involuntary manslaughter?
  • Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:02 pm
    I really do not under stand how you are missing the point so badly.

    There is NO CIRCUMSTANCES, EVER in which the government can take control of your organs, even if it would save the life of another individual.

    It does not matter if it`s your fault that the other person needs your organs.

    Clear enough for you?
  • Profile photo of FakeName212
    FakeName212 Male 18-29
    12 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:03 pm
    yayyy good for you.
  • Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:03 pm
    @ZNaught: You seem unable to actually argue against my reasoning with your own. Look, if you can only "argue" using insults, refrain from it entirely. - No, I won`t, you`re a small minded, selfish idiot who has a half baked philosophy which he`s been spoon fed by either his parents or his church whilst having obviously had no experience of any of the issues he`s arguing about. There, that`s a bit more of an insult, the others were just comments.
  • Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:04 pm
    Abortion:

    If it`s before the brain activity starts, I see no problem. At the end of life, when your brain activity stops, you`re dead; not alive. So I don`t see how you can say a foetus is alive before brain activity starts.

    As women quite rightly point out, it`s their body. And I`m gay anyway; if I ever have a kid, it`s likely to be adopted; one of the babies the anti-abortionists don`t themselves seem to be in a hurry to look after.
  • Profile photo of pnolan
    pnolan Male 18-29
    64 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:05 pm
    @znaught
    Get back to me when you have the means and are actively supporting the lives of poor pregnant women and their children, because there will be a lot of them if we ban abortion. Otherwise, stop trying to pass judgment on people and situations that you obviously have absolutely no concept of.
  • Profile photo of SmilinSam
    SmilinSam Female 18-29
    3599 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:05 pm
    please everybody leave Znaught alone, i came to this conclusion by going back and reading everything he said, and it has become obvious to me, that his opinions are not his own, rather, they are what his mother and father have taught him and most likely, his church. i remember when i was like this. Znaught: there will be a time in your future, that you will look back at the way you think now, and be extremely sad that you were so close minded. I did, and i wish so often that i could take the hurtful things i said in the name of "my religion" back. back from my friends, my enemies, anyone that thought differently than me. i had to re-learn how to think about the world, because my opinions were shaped and formed around what people in positions of power told me to say and how to react. Your life will be so much richer if you begin to think about things objectively, rather than subjectively.
  • Profile photo of rainbowfarts
    rainbowfarts Female 18-29
    798 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:07 pm
    @Znaught

    good job, you linked to a public forum where it holds as much academic weight as this one and obviously we are not in consensus. And overpopulation is not about how many people can fit on the earth, it`s about whether everyone is able to eat and have potable water, that`s a big part of living you know.

    And sorry but linking abortion to genocide just doesn`t work for me and I honestly see it as a slap in the face to those people who survived the systematic killing of people based on their race, religion, etc. These people had lives that they worked for and connections in this world (and pain receptors, which fetuses don`t develop until at least 2 1/2 months).

    Again, it really isn`t your concern about what women do with their body.
  • Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:09 pm
    So, where do you stand on women who are pregnant through rape, or young girls pregnant by their abuser, are they allowed an abortion. I suppose it`s their fault for being able to procreate in the fist place and they should have taken better precautions against attack.
  • Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:13 pm
    SmilinSam: You stand as a beacon of truth in the dark mists of IAB. You`re right, it`s not his fault and only time will show him the way.
  • Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:17 pm
    pui: What gives you the right to take control of the fetus`s organs? Your argument stands up until you take into account that abortion is infringement on the rights of the fetus. You should have the right to do whatever you want so long as it doesn`t hurt anyone else, but abortion is hurting someone else.

    As I have argued previously, abortion is also irresponsible. A pregnant woman and her partner chose to have sex (except for in the case of rape) so she and her partner are responsible for the outcome.
  • Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:23 pm
    Before 10 weeks (which is when most abortions take place) a fetus hardly HAS any organs.

    If someone needs my kidney to live and I say no, the government cannot force me to give up my kidney for their benefit. It does not matter if they will die because of my choice not to help them. If a fetus needs my organs to live, the government still does not have a right to tell me what I can do with MY ORGANS. It doesn`t matter if the fetus will die.
  • Profile photo of pnolan
    pnolan Male 18-29
    64 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:24 pm
    what gives you the right to the fetuses organs is that they are growing inside of you and stealing your nutrients. Because fetuses are parasites.
  • Profile photo of SmilinSam
    SmilinSam Female 18-29
    3599 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:28 pm
    Pui: you`re right.

    most people don`t realize that when they say "crush a baby" or "rip it to pieces" that they are using gruesome imagery to try to sway peoples opinions. instead, why don`t you look up how an abortion is done? where is the developed "baby" which you "shred"? most of the time an abortion is more like a forced period.
  • Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:30 pm
    My point is simple: As long as I am alive, my organs are mine. There is no other case where it would be "morally" okay to give up, share or use my organs for another human being`s benefit unless I choose to do so. Therefore, it`s ridiculous to say that something that does not even have a central nervous system should be able to use my organs without my saying so.
  • Profile photo of cagel
    cagel Female 18-29
    275 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:39 pm
    WIN
  • Profile photo of crax
    crax Male 18-29
    55 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:41 pm
    green_batman: Yes, she and her partner are responsible for the outcome. They choose to abort the baby. Now drat off
  • Profile photo of cagel
    cagel Female 18-29
    275 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:44 pm
    Also: a fetus is clearly a living thing. Just like a plant or a bug or whatever else is living. I don`t know if it`s got a soul or consciousness. But I do know that I totally don`t care. Don`t care. Don`t want to be pregnant? Get an abortion; it`s your call.

    Suggesting that because somebody had sex and got pregnant they have to have the baby is just an old-fashion position fostered by anti-sex thinking. Anti-abortionists merely want to punish the mother for being a loose woman. But what they don`t realize is they are also punishing the fetus. Fetus didn`t ask to be born to someone not ready to be a parent.

    I also think that anti-abortionists can`t deal with the idea that they themselves could have been aborted. That they might have not existed. I have never heard a single argument against abortion that is not selfish, callous, or down-right sexist.

    Yes, that`s a challenge.

  • Profile photo of korahn
    korahn Male 30-39
    1300 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:51 pm
    @ZNaught I don`t understand Christianity? I was raised and confirmed Roman Catholic - though I left to follow my own beliefs after high school since I no longer shared their teachings (if it`s a question about my name, it`s derived from a character I created back in Jr High named Kor `Ahn). I stated what I did as a joke. I am completely pro-choice, and also believe that, while technically "alive" the fetus is not a full being until birth.

    I had a friend who had an abortion but my wife, thankfully, does not believe in abortions. Our first child was born when I was 16 and she was 14. Our second was 4 years later. I then got a vasectomy (which is also technically against the Roman Catholic beliefs that sex should be ONLY for procreation.
  • Profile photo of geek_nimrod
    geek_nimrod Female 18-29
    371 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:51 pm
    WIN
  • Profile photo of Siyanor
    Siyanor Male 18-29
    1184 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:52 pm
    "Take this into consideration: If you say abortion is murder, then if a pregnant woman would lose control of her car, crash, and have a miscarriage, would you call it involuntary manslaughter?"

    Would I? No. Is it? Yes, legally, it is.
  • Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:54 pm
    Uhm, legally I`m pretty sure that is not considered involuntary manslaughter.
  • Profile photo of vfr4
    vfr4 Male 30-39
    185 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 5:58 pm
    A women, in college! What is this opposite land?
  • Profile photo of lerie
    lerie Female 18-29
    1265 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 6:02 pm
    pui: Your points are by far some of the best I have ever read. Well said.

    You want a kid and can`t have it? To bad for you people, not my problem. Maybe nature is trying to tell you something.

    About the myth of women having terrible mental consequences because of abortions: I encourage you to visit http://www.imnotsorry.net/
  • Profile photo of strangedays
    strangedays Female 18-29
    39 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 6:05 pm
    Siyanor: so if having a miscarriage is "legally" considered involuntary manslaughter like you said, then the woman should be imprisoned? Imprisonment is the punishment for involuntary manslaughter (length of time there is determined by the case), but if having an accident that causes a miscarriage is, according to you, "legally" considered involuntary manslaughter, then those damn clumsy woman should just be locked up! How about that?
  • Profile photo of daninicki
    daninicki Female 18-29
    185 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 8:08 pm
    yeah. cause single moms never go to collage....
  • Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 8:11 pm
    "yeah. cause single moms never go to collage...."

    yeah thats very true but as some smartdude once said. "just because you can do it, doesnt mean its the best way to do it"
  • Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 8:12 pm
    and apparently you didnt
  • Profile photo of RyanHake
    RyanHake Male 18-29
    2690 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 8:17 pm
    Dang...
  • Profile photo of Lionhart2
    Lionhart2 Male 40-49
    8306 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 8:36 pm
    > daninicki
    > yeah. cause single moms never go to collage....

    ...or Grade School either apparently, if spelling is a guide.
  • Profile photo of OpsAss13
    OpsAss13 Male 30-39
    514 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 8:46 pm
    It is not a woman`s right to choose if another life should exist or not. Here is an informative site with picsClick Here It is insane for anyone to think this is an okay option. I do not understand why woman, who do not want children, do not take precautions. And don`t give me that crap about birth control failure. I am 29 and my wife and I have 5 kids. 1 was planned. I would not have dreamed of aborting if I wasn`t ready. I drated up by not being safe so I pay the consequences. It is not the babies fault. Woman are just selfish and only care about themselves. It`s too bad their parents didn`t have the same mindset. What if they aborted their kids. You wouldn`t be here to have an opinion but, thankfully, you were given a chance to live. GO to the site I mentioned earlier and click on the pics. I hope they change your mind. Put yourself in their place. Think of your
  • Profile photo of BenTheBug
    BenTheBug Male 18-29
    1195 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 8:55 pm
    My mom went to collage while she was pregnant with my sister...
  • Profile photo of cagel
    cagel Female 18-29
    275 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 8:57 pm
    You reveal your anti-sex and anti-woman sentiments, Ops.

    But I agree, it`s not the baby`s fault. So why does the baby have to put up with crap parents just because they had birth-control failure?

    And, you make another point for me; you can`t imagine having never been. What if you`d been aborted? You wouldn`t be here. You wouldn`t know. It wouldn`t matter.

    And you also can`t see any other perspective. You will never be pregnant. You are not impoverished. You have access to medical care.

    What if you were a poor, uneducated and alone woman who found herself pregnant for any reason. How would you pay for your prenatal care? How would you work, pay for food, stay healthy, and then give birth to a child you now have to care for while working, paying for food, and maybe staying healthy?

    Do you have an alternative to abortion? Other than adoption? Will you pay for prenatal care? Will you adopt the unwanted child? If not, then I think you have no
  • Profile photo of cagel
    cagel Female 18-29
    275 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 8:59 pm
    nothing to offer, and thus shouldn`t assert what a woman should do with her body and life. I pity your wife.
  • Profile photo of OpsAss13
    OpsAss13 Male 30-39
    514 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 9:25 pm
    @cagel. Point your finger at me and you have 3 pointing back at you. Why can`t you see things from anyone else`s point of view but yours. I understand women want total control but you also have to bring in the wishes of the father. Does he not get an opinion on something that is 50% his? I am not going to play the "what if" game. I wasn`t aborted, I am here with my opinion and you will listen to it. Read your post. You are talking about women in a third world country. It`s called Medicaid, public assistance, and lots of other possibilities for single women. And why can`t we have adoption as a viable option? Please reason that for me. Pity my wife!? Why, because I work and provide for her and our children? DO you pity her because I do not abuse or belittle or cheat on her? Or is it because she gets to be a stay-at-home Mom?
  • Profile photo of Psycholady33
    Psycholady33 Female 18-29
    61 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 9:27 pm
    This site pretty much sums up my opinions on abortion.
    http://www.abortionisprolife.com/faq.htm

    Quoted from site:
    "A being is a physically independent entity. A fetus is physically/physiologically dependent on the woman (host) for its survival—especially during the early stages of pregnancy. Only upon birth is it physically independent of the woman`s body, an actual independent being. A baby, in contrast, though `socially` dependent on the actions of other human beings for its survival, is physiologically and physically independent of the body of its mother.

    (An argument can be made that a viable fetus that is fully developed (physiologically independent), but still inside the womb (physically dependent), should not be aborted, but should be delivered early.)"
  • Profile photo of cagel
    cagel Female 18-29
    275 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 9:43 pm
    I pity your wife because you think you have domain over her body. I do not think the father of the fetus has any right to dictate what a woman does with her body. He cannot demand she have the baby, and cannot demand she abort the baby conversely.

    As for your little "three fingers" back at me; what a tired little boy you are.

    I have read and thus listened to your opinion. I just think it`s stupid, ignorant, and misogynist.

    And I`m not talking about 3rd-world countries here. A lot of women can`t get medical aid. A pregnancy costs a lot more than you think without insurance. But then you will never know.

    The issue at hand is that women should have the choice of whether or not they will be baby slaves. And yes, carrying the baby to term just to give it up for adoption is still being a baby slave.
    Children who are wards of the state are numerous. Are you adopting any of them?
  • Profile photo of cagel
    cagel Female 18-29
    275 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 9:48 pm
    Haha! She "gets" to be a stay-at-home mom. I don`t pity anybody exercising their personal choices. That`s the whole point: choice.

    Somebody in here pointed out that being pro-choice doesn`t mean "ABORT ALL BABIES."

    Just let everyone have choices. Nobody told you that you couldn`t have 5 kids. So, don`t insist some stranger that they have to have one merely because they got pregnant.

    In other words, why can`t we all mind our own business and allow people to make decisions for their own bodies?
  • Profile photo of banjolegs
    banjolegs Male 30-39
    176 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 10:33 pm
    OOh everyone so angry!
    Well how about this then. Ban abortion and watch the number of deaths by coathanger soar!

    I`m with Pui who has made an eloquent and elegant case
  • Profile photo of coldCanuck
    coldCanuck Male 13-17
    296 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 10:54 pm
    Hey Cagel, are you saying that even if aman must pay 33% of his income to a child support for a child that he wanted aborted is fair? Because if a woman has all the say to what happens to "her" child than men in society have no point but to make money and give it to their wives. A women and man have equal say for their child, If he doesn`t want the child and goes on record of that, but she still does than he shouldn`t have to pay child support because He never wanted the child.
  • Profile photo of Lionhart2
    Lionhart2 Male 40-49
    8306 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 11:07 pm
    Abortion is Murder, plain and simple. Its legally-condoned, socially accepted murder in a society where an individual`s right to party, drink and do whatever they want for their own satisfaction, is given more acceptance than a defenseless human`s life.
  • Profile photo of slayer50515
    slayer50515 Male 18-29
    988 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 11:29 pm
    "We disagree. A pile of cells with the "potential" to be a human being is not a human being, and are NOT a human being until they can survive outside the mother.

    My sperm have "potential" to be a human being, but I "discard" them, um, frequently, without moral conundrum. "
    I chuckled.

    "Abortion is Murder, plain and simple. Its legally-condoned, socially accepted murder in a society where an individual`s right to party, drink and do whatever they want for their own satisfaction, is given more acceptance than a defenseless human`s life."
    It`s a pile of cells that has the potential to become a fully grown human. It is NOT a human (yet), and you completely fail to grasp that concept. It is part of two other humans, one of which it is attached to. In simple terms, the fetus is a parasite until it is "born." I see no problem with removing it.
  • Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 11:33 pm
    Sigh. Cagel: Apply your argument (instead of to a fetus) to anyone you think is a person, but that hasn`t always been agreed upon.

    Easiest examples are Jews and blacks.

    Do you think the owner of slaves in the 17-1800s. should decide if they live or die? anyone who asks for them to have rights shouldn`t get a say because "it`s all about personal choice, no one is MAKING you own slaves"?

    Are any of your arguments valid yet? No.
    You`re making the wrong argument. You should establish that it isn`t a person, specifically, when it isn`t a person.

    Birth? Why? If we were still on all fours we`d be giving birth 3 months later.
    Full development? That`s in your 20s.
    Brain waves? We currently abort 8 weeks post the ability of the fetus to dream and feel pain.
    Heartbeat? 12 weeks later.

    If this was a "anti-choice" issue, the protests would be outside Starbucks. They`re not. There`s a reason.
  • Profile photo of JamestheKidd
    JamestheKidd Male 18-29
    31 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 11:33 pm
    Lionhart, you`re an idiot!
  • Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 11:35 pm
    Slayer, you are a pile of cells.

    Make the distinction. I`ve provided several criteria. (Be careful not to accidentally justify shotgunning down homes for the mentally ill, or allowing parents to kill anyone up to the age of 20, or just outright genocide. That tends to happen occasionally in these debates).
  • Profile photo of Fwoggie2
    Fwoggie2 Male 30-39
    1803 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 11:43 pm
    I`m with Cagel. It`s the woman`s right to choose. I don`t think I`d want to have to write off the rest of my life bringing up a badly disabled downs syndrome child that needs 24/7 nursing. But if the missus said she would, I`d support her fully. She`d have to make the call, not me.
  • Profile photo of therach
    therach Female 18-29
    36 posts
    April 22, 2010 at 11:49 pm
    This argument is so moot. Anti-abortionists/pro-lifers are going to consider it life and it will always be a moral issue to them. Pro-choicers will always think it is NOT a moral issue.

    Point being. Morals. Morals that are perceived in different ways by different people. Why is anyone even bothering to have this argument?

    Because for one, anti-abortioner`s you can`t MAKE someone else`s decisions for them so stop trying to. And for pro-choicer`s, for people that want everyone to have a choice, you don`t seem so keen on everyone having a voice.

    Can we go back to looking at weird pictures and move on?
  • Profile photo of therach
    therach Female 18-29
    36 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 12:10 am
    "1) If you can`t survive on your own, you aren`t alive. By "survive on your own", I mean you can properly process food, water, and oxygen to sustain yourself."

    In the case of a fetus, okay, fine. But you need to reword your statement because my son was unable to process food, water or oxygen for two months due to an illness and he is very much alive.
  • Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 12:13 am
    Baalthazaq: I`m afraid you lost the argument the minute you wildly extrapolated a bunch of cells to Jews and blacks.
    It`s amazing how many misogynistic men are on here who think they know what`s best for a woman.
  • Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 12:23 am
    The problem with your argument is that you expect morals to be absolute. Not only that, but that your moralsa re absolute and that everyone else should agree. In reality, morals are relative to the individual and the situation. It makes no sense to it makes no sense to ask the abstract question whether a given act is good or bad; there is no goodness or badness in the abstract; there is only goodness or badness within a specified context. That`s why we have mitigating circumstances in law and a man who kills another does not necessarily go to prison. Soldiers murder but we do not villify them, we apply a relativist approach to our morals. Why can`t you do the same?
  • Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 2:02 am
    How can abortion occurring before brain activity starts be murder? When you turn off life support after a patient in hospital becomes brain dead, is that murder?

    Abortion after brain activity starts is different, but can someone please answer my above question?
  • Profile photo of Nerdfighter0
    Nerdfighter0 Male 18-29
    212 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 4:29 am
    There are the liberal and the conservative. And though I don`t agree with the intial idea of abortion, it allows for some special circumstances to be resolved. The morally gray ones that is. It also allows a safer outlet instead of the ones that Women would use before it`s legallity changed. But I also think that to abort a child only because of convenience sake, and I say convenience with revulsion, is a tragedy all its own. I know FAMILY who have done this. And as the original poster says, it a horrible experience.
  • Profile photo of Souljaskreed
    Souljaskreed Female 18-29
    4 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 5:18 am
    simply stating. the idea that no brain activity means that it simply can not be murder. well. it poses interesting questions. such as. something in your body (no matter how scientifically you can explain it away)is creating a life, no matter what stage its in. the heart is developed in a recognizable form in simply 22 days. far before the brain is distinguishable (at least to our knowledge). i would sooner believe a heartbeat means presence of life than anything else. i am not saying that the aforementioned "gray area" does not exist. but far be it from anyone to determine when exactly "life" is begun.

    And the definition of muder is to kill intentionally and with premeditation, or, The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse. there is laws that allow you to pull the plug, so depending on which definition you hold true, it is and it isnt. (gray area again?)but if you do it with permission or for their benefit would it then be
  • Profile photo of shamrock1014
    shamrock1014 Male 40-49
    313 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 5:45 am
    Good, go to college, maybe you can learn about this new thing call contraceptives.
  • Profile photo of pmarren
    pmarren Male 40-49
    4575 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 5:47 am
    I think she`s hot... I`d tap it.
  • Profile photo of OpsAss13
    OpsAss13 Male 30-39
    514 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 6:00 am
    You cannot compare soldiers and war with abortion. As Jules would say, "It`s not even in the same drating ballpark." Soldiers volunteer for a job. In the past, they were told to volunteer. That job involves protecting the US and it`s assets against radicals. They kill people that are wanting to kill us. Is a unborn baby wanting to kill it`s mother (No Stewie jokes please LOL) Can the act of abortion be considered self defense in any way? @Musuko. Taking someone off of life support and pushing forceps into the back of their head to kill them are 2 different situations. If a doctor was to crush that person`s skull and vacuum out the pieces, he would be charged with murder no matter the reasoning.
  • Profile photo of OpsAss13
    OpsAss13 Male 30-39
    514 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 6:05 am
    So just to add another scenario...Most are saying that no one has the right to tell someone what to do with their body...Okay. What about a woman that refuses to sleep with a man that won`t use a condom? Is she not telling him what to do with his body? Is it okay in this situation because the outcome could affect the woman negatively (i.e. pregnancy or disease.)So it is okay in this situation because his choice affects another person. Isn`t that the same as a woman deciding to abort a baby? She is the only one that can make a decision that will affect lives other then her own? Sounds like double standards.
  • Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 6:24 am
    See, that`s the problem. You take an absolute moral stance when it suits you and then loosen it when it impinges on another of your sensibilities. Soldiers are only in a completely different ballpark in your conveniently compartmentalised moral matrix.
  • Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 6:25 am
    Opsass13: Okay. What about a woman that refuses to sleep with a man that won`t use a condom? Is she not telling him what to do with his body? - No, she`s telling him where he can`t put it,
  • Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 6:26 am
    That woman is not forcing him to do anything. It`s still his body, and he can refuse to wear a condom all he wants, but she also has the right to protect her own body. You`re making it out like it`s the man`s right to have sex with her, which it is not.

    A human being`s rights extend right up until that means using another human being`s body or organs. A man does not have the right to use a woman`s organs for his pleasure if she does not want. A person does not have a right to use another person`s kidney without that person`s permission, *even if the person who needs that kidney would die without it*. You can`t be forced to share or use your organs against you will, even in extreme cases and even if it`s your fault somehow. There is no reason why there should be an exception here. A "person" should not be able to use another person`s uterus without their permission, even if they will die.

    (note: I also don`t believe a fetus to even have personhood)
  • Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7560 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 7:08 am
    Good Lord- not sure if after all these comments I should answer znaught- but, hey-ho.
    Abortion - for, an abused child, rape victim, one whose life may be endangered by pregnancy, a woman who lacks the mental capacity to understand what is happening to her body ( and is afraid of this). There are many circumstances where abortion is a sensible humane thing to do. I agree that in many cases there are other solutions,but the ability to choose is important. Good sex education, access to reliable contraception,the moring after pill- so many pro-lifers are people who deny these things to their young people yet it never occurs to them that these things help prevent women from having to resort to abortion.
  • Profile photo of SumRandom1
    SumRandom1 Male 18-29
    794 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 7:47 am
    PRO ABORTION, thats all im saying, growing up in NYC and having classmates that ended up prego in HS, and chose to keep their babies for religious purposes, they still live happy lives, but to each his own
  • Profile photo of xcaitiebabie
    xcaitiebabie Female 18-29
    96 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 7:47 am
    ever heard of adoption?
  • Profile photo of fishgul69
    fishgul69 Female 18-29
    914 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 8:05 am
    super lol at the poster, because in many cases it`s true.
  • Profile photo of PaganMomBlog
    PaganMomBlog Female 30-39
    48 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 8:15 am
    When my mother was pregnant with me she was told she had to have me. My father and grandmother (her mother) fought with her not to have an abortion. I endured years of abuse at the hands of that woman out of resentment for not given a choice. My grandmother and father THOUGHT they were doing the right thing. I no longer speak to my mother. At 34 I am just now coming to a place where I can trust women. I think she should have aborted me. As far as I am concerned, I would have still been born. But I would have been born to a woman who loved me. It`s hard as hell being raised by a woman who hates you and reminds you daily that she hates you and "you ruined my life". I wouldn`t wish that on any unborn child.
  • Profile photo of DavidXJ
    DavidXJ Male 30-39
    1106 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 9:59 am
    A mother would go to prison for killing a baby that was born (even if it was a 2.5lb premie), but before it`s born, it`s legal. That`s two faced and ignoring scientific fact because it suits your purposes.

    So many people get on us Christians because they feel we ignore science to suit our purposes, but then these same people fight for abortion rights. Two faced hypocrites.
  • Profile photo of Tobunshi
    Tobunshi Male 18-29
    678 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 10:22 am
    There`s a pooLOAD of abuse related to adoption, both mentally and physically. Sometimes abortion is the best option, though it`s never GOOD.
  • Profile photo of robotobunneh
    robotobunneh Female 18-29
    265 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 10:29 am
    "A mother would go to prison for killing a baby that was born (even if it was a 2.5lb premie), but before it`s born, it`s legal. That`s two faced and ignoring scientific fact because it suits your purposes."

    ... Actually, scientific fact is that a fetus is NOT an infant. Nope, not even close.
  • Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 11:58 am
    aikiman: You fail to consider the possibility that morals are absolute, but that many people are simply wrong about their moral stances.

    pui: If you make a choice that leads to pregnancy, you have made the choice to allow your uterus and nutrients to be used. That pregnancy occurs from sex is a well-known fact. When you choose to have sex, you know that pregnancy is a possible outcome. Saying then that you don`t have to deal with the consequences is like saying it`s not your fault that you got burned when you touched something hot. You knew it was likely to happen, but you chose to do it anyway. Why is sex different from any other choice we make? Any choice we make has consequences, and some of those consequences have moral implications. A fetus is a developing person and you are taking a life when you choose to abort it. Taking a life under other circumstances is considered morally wrong.
  • Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 11:59 am
    As to quality of life arguments: No one is assured a perfect quality of life. We make due with what we have. You have no right to judge the value of the life of someone born in poverty because they still may have a life worth living. I have never met someone who truly believed that there was no value whatsoever to their life and that they would be better off never having had it in the first place. I think that life of any sort is better than never having had a chance at it because no one`s life is 100% terrible.
  • Profile photo of genericuser
    genericuser Female 18-29
    317 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 12:18 pm
    cause you totally can`t go to college and have a baby at the same time. because of course no one has ever done that.
  • Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 12:28 pm
    If I accidentally crash my car into someone and because of that they need a new kidney or they will die, should the government be able to force me to donate my kidney? After all, it was my actions that lead to their fate.

    NO. There is NEVER a circumstance where you can be FORCED to share, use or give your organs to another person. Doesn`t matter if you caused it, and doesn`t matter if they will die without it. It`s simple.

    Your organs and body are YOURS, and nobody ever has the power to tell you what you can and cannot do with your own body, even if it would save another life. It applies to people who are already born, so why wouldn`t it apply to the unborn?
  • Profile photo of Bigbadwolf
    Bigbadwolf Male 18-29
    335 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 12:31 pm
    Robotbunneh has a point
    "... Actually, scientific fact is that a fetus is NOT an infant. Nope, not even close. "

    Those who are against abortion
    Who are you to define it as murder?
    I mean, war is murder, but it`s still going on...
  • Profile photo of Wiggle1111
    Wiggle1111 Male 18-29
    78 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 2:23 pm
    8 out of 10 people are born with a faetal twin which we then dratING EAT in the womb. Abortion is similar, natural selection but without the natural bit.
  • Profile photo of cagel
    cagel Female 18-29
    275 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 2:38 pm
    it`s funny how people twist around what I`ve said. I suppose I could go on another tirade about theoretical people. But the fact is, a person`s body is singularly their business. Like pui has said, nobody can force you to give up your body parts for anyone else.

    Nobody can even pluck a hair off of your arm without your say-so.

    IF a fetus were a person, it cannot demand she give up her womb for it if she does not want. It cannot demand she provide it with nutrients.

    However, as many people have pointed out a fetus is not an infant.

    Again, however, Pro-lifers who do not function in the realm of logic or science will never ever be convinced it`s not a baby.

    You are entitled to your opinion on the matter. You are entitled to belittle anyone who gets an abortion. You are not entitled, however, to demand anyone do anything with their own body that they do not want. Period. Legal and societal fact. Not opinion.
  • Profile photo of cagel
    cagel Female 18-29
    275 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 2:43 pm
    Also, green_batman. People have a right to put their finger into a flame. Regardless of CAUSATION or CORRELATION.

    Correlation and causation are not the same.

    Pregnancy is correlation to sex. Not every act of sex causes pregnancy.

    Also: some blah blah about rape, incest. Your argument is conditional and rhetorically unsound.
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    cagel Female 18-29
    275 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 2:43 pm
    correlated. My bad.
  • Profile photo of cagel
    cagel Female 18-29
    275 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 2:45 pm
    "I think that life of any sort is better than never having had a chance at it because no one`s life is 100% terrible."

    Tell that to people who have committed suicide.
  • Profile photo of SomeShoes
    SomeShoes Male 13-17
    2056 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 3:37 pm
    me? idk, whatever she wants to do
  • Profile photo of OmgZelda
    OmgZelda Female 18-29
    1593 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 5:47 pm
    I like you, Cagel.
  • Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 5:50 pm
    green batman: "You fail to consider the possibility that morals are absolute, but that many people are simply wrong about their moral stances."
    - I don`t fail to consider it, morals are not absolute. Different cultures and societies have different moralistic ideals `thou shalt not kill` etc. and within those moral ideals, the morals themselves are always relative to the situation. So whose morals are absolute? Oh, of course, yours are aren`t they. The societies with the least relativistic morals are the fundamentalists who cause oost of the major problems in this world...stone the adultress anyone?
  • Profile photo of OpsAss13
    OpsAss13 Male 30-39
    514 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 7:34 pm
    @pui If I accidentally crash my car into someone and because of that they need a new kidney or they will die, should the government be able to force me to donate my kidney? After all, it was my actions that lead to their fate.


    Of course not but your ass would go to jail....
  • Profile photo of OpsAss13
    OpsAss13 Male 30-39
    514 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 7:38 pm
    @cagel Tell that to people who have committed suicide.

    Which ones? Suicide bombers, people with a mental issue like depression, or teenagers that cannot handle life that everyone else lives? Suicide is the easy way to deal with issues that EVERYONE has. Its like drinking to forget. You, cagel, annoy the hell out of me.
  • Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 7:49 pm
    Not if it was an accident.

    And that just stresses my point. Even if I DID choose to purposefully run over a person and went to jail, the government would STILL not have any right to control my body or organs. It is ridiculous to claim that just because I chose to have sex, the government gets to decide what I do with my organs if I were to become pregnant.
  • Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 9:10 pm
    pui: The consequences for crashing into someone do not equate to the consequences of sex. Further, it isn`t that the government would be taking control of your organs. It is that the government would be stopping you from doing something wrong and harmful to another being. The government has the right to put you in jail when you murder someone (taking control of your body) because you have infringed on the rights of another person, therefore taking away your own rights. As I stated, you are effectively giving permission for your uterus to be used to house a fetus when you have sex. Sex is the cause of pregnancy, so you are taking a chance that you will get pregnant when you have sex.
  • Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 9:11 pm

    cagel: People have a right to put their finger in the flame if they want. People have a right to have sex if they want. But they don`t have a right to deny responsibility afterwards. And sex does cause pregnancy. Not every incident of sex causes pregnancy, but nearly every instance of pregnancy is caused by sex and we know the mechanism by which pregnancy occurs, so we know that sex causes pregnancy. You can`t change the rules of nature just because you don`t want it to be so.
  • Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    April 23, 2010 at 9:14 pm
    aikiman: Different cultures may have different moral values, but it doesn`t mean that every culture is right. It doesn`t mean that any culture is right. Historically speaking, there have been plenty of moral wrongs considered acceptable. For example: slavery was condoned for a long time in the US. It isn`t anymore, not because society randomly chose to make it wrong, but because we have learned that it is wrong. You are expressing derision at the idea of stoning an adulteress. If you truly believe that there are no such things as moral rights and wrong, then you shouldn`t have any feelings either way on the issue. Yet you do have feelings on the issue because you know that it is wrong. I don`t claim that all of my moral stances are absolute truth. I can tell you that I have put a lot of thought into the topic of abortion and I am providing logical arguments to back up my opinions. To clarify, I am not religious and my reasons against abortion have nothing to do with religion.
  • Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    April 24, 2010 at 12:48 am
    green_batman: A fetus is not a person. Calling a fetus a person is like looking at a blank canvas and a tube of paint and calling it a finished painting. Just like a blank canvas and tubes of pigment, a fetus is raw material that one day can be shaped into something meaningful. But until that process is done, the fetus itself is a non-entity.
  • Profile photo of spikelea
    spikelea Male 18-29
    9 posts
    April 24, 2010 at 10:10 pm
    yaezakura: actually, a fetus develops into a baby without any active pursuit from the mother to make it that. You can`t passively sit there with a blank canvas in front of you and a tube of paint in your hand and just have a painting start to develop
  • Profile photo of Lauryn
    Lauryn Female 18-29
    437 posts
    April 25, 2010 at 5:33 am
    AGGHHH! ok so as i have had 2 babies, and then had an abortion... i feel i have a say in this matter!...

    I / WE (mummy and daddy) decided to abort OUR child.... We didnt really agree, on the WHOLE, but we could not AFFORD to have another child! WE have 2 to surport and could NOT surport another.... IS IT A BAD SITUATION?? YES we all agree on that? Then how could we bring another child into it?? PERSONALLY we couldnt! We were on BIRTH CONTROL... you know sometimes it just doesnt work!!! IT IS A CHOICE AND A dratING HARD CHOICE AT THAT!!! ONE THAT I AM STILL TRYING TO OVERCOME! i resent you people who have NOT had to make that choice! I am not a bad person! yet you are trying to make me one! PaganMomBlog... im sorry for what you have gone through but i fear i may have been one of those mothers if i had not been given the choice, YOU seem to have beaten the abuase you suffered and I AM SO SO HAPPY FOR YOU!! you never deserved to be treated like that!
  • Profile photo of Lauryn
    Lauryn Female 18-29
    437 posts
    April 25, 2010 at 5:43 am
    I honestly agree that you would and SHOULD have been born to a mother who truely appreciated you and would have!

    Im sorry for you on my behalf! I wasnt born in to a `happy` family either, so i really do understand your pain! i dont want to report all on this site but hunni, if you need to talk im ALWAYS HERE!!... i know im younger than you, but that doesnt make me an indecent person!

    YOU CAN NEVER JUDGE a person until YOU ARE put into the same predicament as them........ //until you have personally been in EVERY SITUATION... then do not judge!
  • Profile photo of SmilinSam
    SmilinSam Female 18-29
    3599 posts
    April 25, 2010 at 3:58 pm
    "Good sex education, access to reliable contraception,the moring after pill- so many pro-lifers are people who deny these things to their young people yet it never occurs to them that these things help prevent women from having to resort to abortion."

    OMG Madduck, THIS is the real issure here... we should all be fighting not to end abortion but to END ALL UNWANTED PREGNANCIES!! (not by abortion but by them never having occurred in the first place)

    what the hell is wrong with people when they can`t just accept that sex is going to happen and has been happening since the beginning of time, but we are smart enough now to take precautions, and if we weren`t constantly trying to make people afraid of sex and focused more on education, we`d all be better off.
  • Profile photo of AlANeptune
    AlANeptune Female 18-29
    264 posts
    April 25, 2010 at 11:20 pm
    OMFG. Is everyone on here pro-abotion???? Watch out for it, because here comes a Pro-Life comment! (insert "How am i going to shoot this one down?" thought here.)
    I agree that in some circumstances, abortion may be the only way. But those who actively use abortion as a form of birth control are self-indulgent jerks. If you`re going to have sex, be aware of the possible consequences!! FACT: The number one cause of unwanted pregnancies is SEX. Even if you are safe and use condoms and bc pills, there is still a chance. I think if you`re going to choose to have sex, you should be prepared for the consequences. Don`t extinguish the life of the child who would`ve grown up loving you.

    One more thing: My uncle was pro-life until he and his wife had premature twins. Four months premature. He stopped and thought, "What is the difference between these babies we are trying desperately to save and the babies that are the same age dying in the next room?"

    H
  • Profile photo of AlANeptune
    AlANeptune Female 18-29
    264 posts
    April 25, 2010 at 11:24 pm
    One more thing: How is it that a mother in a car accident, who was pregnant, have her unborn child killed and sue for manslaughter... legally? The government already gives rights to unborn children! But NOOOOO, not if the mother WANTED it dead, though by their own standards that should be murder. Hypocritical....
  • Profile photo of AlANeptune
    AlANeptune Female 18-29
    264 posts
    April 25, 2010 at 11:30 pm
    Alright, last thing, REALLY. Even if you are pro-abortion you HAVE to agree that partial-birth abortion is..... truly despicable and wrong and cruel and all other negative adjetives in the dictionary. If you allowed the child to be big enough that it can`t be taken out through conventional means, just go through with it! Like the story of my uncle downs there, the only difference was the fact that the mother wanted it DEAD, even though it can live on it`s own at that point.

    Ok, sorry to blather. I just wanted to put in a couple... yeah, sorry.
  • Profile photo of mithraela
    mithraela Female 18-29
    535 posts
    April 26, 2010 at 3:05 am
    You stupid, petty people. The point is, now she can go to college. See? A silver lining. And don`t even say "A silver lining to murder?" because it was murder bought us this big tract of mud we call america. It was the desire to murder that had many of you rallying under bush singing God bless america. It was murder that first spread the Christian religion across the world. And it is murder we wholeheartedly choose whenever we try to solve the worlds problems without diplomacy(Just so you know, Jesus was probably a diplomatic person.)So, you see, a little murder never hurt anybody when it`s patriotic Americans doing the killing. It`s just too bad you still can`t prove that abortion is murder.
  • Profile photo of kipz0r
    kipz0r Male 18-29
    37 posts
    April 26, 2010 at 4:37 am
    @AlANeptune
    I don`t know what the cut-off date is for abortion in the US, but over here it`s 22 weeks. For one simple reason, from 24 weeks the foetus could survive on its own. And don`t read that could as a would.
    The thing you say about being prepared to suffer the consequences is bullcrap, sex is fun, people will not stop doing it. Prevent abortions with condoms, morning after pills, the pill and other contraceptives. Promoting abstinence has never worked and will never work.

    And how about raped women, are they allowed abortions?

    Oh, and people who call the morning after pill an abortion should be slapped. It`s just a bunch of cells, if you call that life you abort then you should also call scrubbing or popping a zit an abortion.
  • Profile photo of Erichsgurl2
    Erichsgurl2 Female 18-29
    18 posts
    April 27, 2010 at 12:25 am
    I just threw up a little in my mouth. I was looking for a pic of a cute haircut on google yesterday and came across the girl in this ad! I saved it to my drive `cause I thought the cut was cute...well, uh, I don`t think I want to be known as the girl that got the haircut like the one on the anti-abortion poster. Scratch that.
  • Profile photo of AlANeptune
    AlANeptune Female 18-29
    264 posts
    April 27, 2010 at 8:41 pm
    @kipz0r
    In the US there are abortions past 24 weeks still. Not as many, but still TOO many. Of course promoting abstinence won`t work completely, but neither does promoting non-violent behavior nor keeping your hands out of electrical sockets. Saying not to do something never "works" because not everyone is going to take the advice... obviously. And I`m all for condom use etc, but it isn`t always effective, and people should be aware of this before they engage. And that`s why talking about it is important, because there is always one idiot who just doesn`t get it. People are stupid everywhere. (yeah, whatever, America, hamburgers, facists, blah, blah, European pride...) And I can see the trauma in a rape baby...But I have at least three friends who were rape babies and they are all HAPPY, THRIVING, and LOVED. It happens, despite the mother`s fear. Last thing, zits are blocked OILS and DIRT. The are no "cells" involved except for the dead ones present on the skin
  • Profile photo of geekkittie
    geekkittie Female 30-39
    24 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:40 am
    @ AlANeptune - Late term and partial birth abortions are performed when they are medically necessary. These are abortions in which the parent or parents invested time, energy and emotions into the pregnancy and wanted to have the child.

    These kinds of abortions are also extremely rare. So rare that only a handful of doctors are able to perform them. To suggest that that such a procedure is commonplace is nothing more than propaganda.

    To answer your blather - No. I do not find it cruel and despicable and wrong. I value quality of life more than that of a potential life. Especially one that has no conscious or awareness of what it means to be alive.

  • Profile photo of AlANeptune
    AlANeptune Female 18-29
    264 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:01 pm
    @geekkittie
    For your information, most women who have late term abortions didn`t realize they were pregnant. It rarely has anything to do with medical concerns. Here are the numbers--"71% Woman didn`t recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation 48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion 33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents 24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion 8% Woman waited for her relationship to change 8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion 6% Something changed after woman became pregnant 6% Woman didn`t know timing is important 5% Woman didn`t know she could get an abortion 2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy"
    And if you read what I said, I said there were not as many. One these abortions is TOO MANY, let alone the 2000 or so now. And right now in Boulder there is an entire CLINIC meant for late-term abortions. And at late term the baby could live outside, like my premie cousins, thank you.
  • Profile photo of aikiman
    aikiman Male 40-49
    255 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 8:54 am
    GReen Batman: "If you truly believe that there are no such things as moral rights and wrong, then you shouldn`t have any feelings either way on the issue." - That`s where you misunderstand my argument, I strongly believe that there are moral rights and wrongs but that those moral rights and wrongs are relative. My argument is against the fundamentalist or dogmatic who preaches from on high that `All xxx is wrong because I think it is. Everyone who doesn`t believe what I believe is a fool` that is espoused on these fora. Pragmatism and tolerance are much undervalued and unfortunatley, it is religion that breeds the worst intolerance be it Islam, Christianity or any other.
  • Profile photo of MetalicDemon
    MetalicDemon Male 18-29
    1485 posts
    May 3, 2010 at 9:00 am
    if a girl wants an abortion, its her decision, stop being so confrontational about that...
  • Profile photo of MrRubik
    MrRubik Male 13-17
    68 posts
    May 3, 2010 at 10:43 pm
    great...another lecture war...
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