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Date: 04/28/10 03:35 PM

345 Responses to 1 More Arizona I-A-Ber`s Take On AZ`s New Law [Pic

  1. Profile photo of Angelmassb
    Angelmassb Male 18-29
    15511 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 3:40 pm
    You should be writing to the white house instead
  2. Profile photo of Thesphinx
    Thesphinx Male 18-29
    353 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 3:42 pm
    I commend you Nate. Being fairly unbiased while providing excellent accounts of fact and personal argument is exactly what was needed to help clarify things. This was extremely helpful for me.
  3. Profile photo of chunkymonkie
    chunkymonkie Male 13-17
    670 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 3:50 pm
    what flame war?
  4. Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 3:52 pm
    Cut out the most relevant parts.. this is going to cut into my monkeys doing awesome stuff time.

    Second, as per usual, she makes a lot of broad generalizations about illegal immigrants, or undocumented immigrants for the more PC inclined (though I doubt anyone PC inclined would regularly visit I-A-B). Broad generalizations, such as “Republicans are only rich white people, rednecks, and the religious right” or “Democrats are all over-educated spineless nerds, hippies, and, minorities”, are hilarious and fun to bust out at parties when everyone agrees with you, but again, poor choices as basis’ for government decisions.
  5. Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 3:52 pm
    Third, there are some potential constitutional violations in the bill, but the bill is not unconstitutional per se. For example, making illegal immigration a state crime is almost certainly not unconstitutional. Making not carrying immigration papers while just strolling down the street a state crime is never EXPLICITALLY stated in the bill (or maybe it is and I missed it as I’ve read about 1000 pages of law in the last month), BUT it does force those arrested, or those who can be arrested (believe it or not, the cops can arrest you for a broken taillight; you could take it all the way up to the Supreme Court and lose) to provide proof of identity and immigration status. More or less, it adds immigration documents to the items you need to carry (if you’re brown) along with your insurance card, drivers license, and registration when you drive; when and why a cop can pull you over while driving is a complicated issue that I won’t get into.
  6. Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 3:52 pm
    The tricky issue here is this: because being in this country illegally is now a state crime and reasonable suspicion (a very complex legal term of art) can be defined as reasonable suspicion that a crime is or is about to be committed, it follows that reasonable suspicion that someone is here illegally (a crime) is enough to allow the cops to check immigration papers. The funny thing is, racial profiling is not now, nor has it ever been illegal. It is certainly disfavored, but illegal? No. Reasonable suspicion is determined by the court through a “totality of circumstances” test. This means that all the circumstances are taken into account to determine if the cop had reasonable suspicion that a crime was being committed, that is, the crime of being here illegally. Time of day/night, whether it is a high crime area, race, tattoos, haircut, and eye color could all be theoretically taken into account if the prosecutor can convince the court that they matter (which they almost
  7. Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 3:53 pm
    Ok I`m done
  8. Profile photo of seabass101dg
    seabass101dg Male 18-29
    478 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 3:55 pm
    Doesn`t really address any of the issues about the bill...
  9. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 3:57 pm
    The Hispanic community contributes to about 60 percent of Arizona`s economy, i find it pretty dumb that you would want to get on their bad side, since i know the law is directed to all illegals, but lets face it, they will probably target anyone with a brown face.
  10. Profile photo of youngdz79
    youngdz79 Male 30-39
    268 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 3:59 pm
    any one else notice the half naked chick behind the email, just to the left i believe it to be his wallpaper?
  11. Profile photo of slipwax
    slipwax Male 18-29
    168 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 3:59 pm
    <---- wants to see fancy`s wallpaper
  12. Profile photo of PHXbunny
    PHXbunny Female 18-29
    58 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:03 pm
    Hi Guys, Phxbunny here. So apparently this guy wasn`t watching the news last night when they pulled over 80 people from a drop house at 26th ave and Thomas road in Phoenix. Over 80! I used to live at 71st ave and Thomas and as a child watched as people would jump the fence in my backyard trying to escape raids.
    Now I ask you, with your law degree, how do you define the word, "illegal"?
    I`m sick and damn tired of people saying that this bill is wrong. I`d love to take one of the jobs that an illegal immigrant has the only problem is I`m over-qualified (I too have a degree). These places that hire illegals are breaking the law anyway! Ever heard of E-verify? They don`t use it. These people should be deported. I know so many people that immigrated here LEGALLY and they hate the illegal immigrants because it gives them a bad name. Illegal is illegal. Get over it. This bill doesn`t break any Constitutional of a real US citizen.
    Have fun catching up for finals. Mine
  13. Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:08 pm
    See my comments for what got cut out of the email my fellow Arizonan, you may find that do not conclude that the bill is either good or bad. And his wallpaper is an old picture of Brittany Spears to which I had, umm, fun with as a teenager
  14. Profile photo of wolfking
    wolfking Male 13-17
    156 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:08 pm
    TLDNR
  15. Profile photo of hehehenerd
    hehehenerd Male 13-17
    5973 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:08 pm
    Real question here: What is up with fancy`s background?
  16. Profile photo of BrimstoneOne
    BrimstoneOne Male 30-39
    2229 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:10 pm
    this buggers got a point and info he got backs him; cause my brother did his thesis on immigrant and migrant labour across Canada, and he`s saying the same damn things this guy said. immigrant labour is good for `bad` businesses and and rotten for those that are poor. And it`s sad sign of things but its going to get worse, much, much worse. All have to do is look at Argentina and Chile. History repeating, but this time it`s on American turf, instead of the "back yard" (Munroe Doctrine style)
  17. Profile photo of xxxveganxxx
    xxxveganxxx Male 13-17
    383 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:10 pm
    Agh... Too long ._.
  18. Profile photo of ferrari91169
    ferrari91169 Male 18-29
    208 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:11 pm
    "any one else notice the half naked chick behind the email, just to the left i believe it to be his wallpaper?"

    Mom...is that you?
  19. Profile photo of bliznik
    bliznik Male 30-39
    866 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:11 pm
    @PHXbunny - please state the job that an illegal immigrant has that you wish you had.
  20. Profile photo of blckhawk1234
    blckhawk1234 Male 18-29
    518 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:13 pm
    "Real question here: What is up with fancy`s background?"

    COMPLETELY AGREE
  21. Profile photo of PHXbunny
    PHXbunny Female 18-29
    58 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:17 pm
    Just read down the post list.
    "facts and personal argument is exactly what was needed to help clarify things." Really? What about what he wrote is personal other than the jabs at me? Has he seen this mess first hand? I doubt it. I have. Over and over and over. I`ve seen the raids. I`ve had friends who`s home I could never go to as a kid only to find out later that it was a drop house. I`ve seen people shot because they escaped the smugglers holding them hostage. If you haven`t seen this crap happen you have no idea how bad it actually is. We had a choice years ago, it was either bullet proof our home or move further north to get away from the violence. And yes these people ARE illegal. I`m so sick of this argument but I feel very strongly about it. How many people I knew would still be alive if this had been enacted years ago? Oh, 70% of my state is all for this bill and Texas is going to join us on it. Illegal is ILLEGAL!
  22. Profile photo of lovro22
    lovro22 Male 18-29
    3 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:19 pm
    it`s britney bitch!
  23. Profile photo of PHXbunny
    PHXbunny Female 18-29
    58 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:19 pm
    What is with the comments being cut short?!?! I didn`t go over 1000 characters!
  24. Profile photo of Blaackhalo
    Blaackhalo Male 30-39
    90 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:24 pm
    TLDR; nice wallpaper.
  25. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:25 pm
    "What is with the comments being cut short?!?! I didn`t go over 1000 characters!"

    @PHXbunny: your computer is trying to save you the embarrassment
  26. Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:25 pm
    I made no personal jabs at anyone, I merely stated that anecdotal evidence and generalizations are not the proper base for government policy... and the actually relevant parts about the bill got cut out so I commented them, scroll down and look. And does anyone else miss pictures of non-crazy Ms. Spears? (not her music though, it`s always sucked)...
  27. Profile photo of a1butcher
    a1butcher Male 40-49
    4809 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:25 pm
    Seems to me IAB is soaking this one for all it worth.. just watch this hit counter go up!
  28. Profile photo of PHXbunny
    PHXbunny Female 18-29
    58 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:25 pm
    >bliznik

    Any. I don`t care if it`s cleaning toilets even. Digging holes? Don`t care. Working in fields? I love plants. Working in a factory? I like building things. Now try and find an employer that is willing to take a worker that has rights that they can`t violate on a daily basis. That`s the thing. If an illegal speaks up they can get rid of them easily where as I can sue for wrongful termination. Now to ad another kink in the works of getting this job, I have a degree.
  29. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:25 pm
    @PHXbunny. it is frustrating to have "americans" like you. i believe those 80 people that were arrested where left there for dead by their coyotes. its not like they were living there.

    i would agree with you that something has to be done about illegal immigration, but you cant you say that we should search everyone that looks remotely mexican because they may be illegals..

    in essence, its not that you are violating the rights of the illegals, but you are violating the right of the legal "brown" people in Arizona.
  30. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:28 pm
    "Any. I don`t care if it`s cleaning toilets even. Digging holes? Don`t care. Working in fields? I love plants. Working in a factory? I like building things. Now try and find an employer that is willing to take a worker that has rights that they can`t violate on a daily basis. That`s the thing. If an illegal speaks up they can get rid of them easily where as I can sue for wrongful termination. Now to ad another kink in the works of getting this job, I have a degree."

    you are not making any sense, bliznik statesment referred to asking you if you would like to have any of the jobs that an illegal does for as much as they get paid. because lets face it even if you have a degree, they would it pay you 40 dollars an hours to pick up fruits.
  31. Profile photo of PHXbunny
    PHXbunny Female 18-29
    58 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:35 pm
    @Tonyjet

    Really? You think it`s to save me embarrassment? Have you read your post? Have you even read the bill? Do you know that you would have to be pulled over for a LEGAL REASON before they can ask for your papers? If they just went around asking anyone for their papers then they would be violating Constitutional rights but that is not the case. They can`t search you when ever they feel like it! That was just a POOR CHOICE of words on IAB`s part. That was the whole reason I wrote in to them!
    It`s not a matter of "Brown people" it`s a matter of legality. Why can`t you get that? Heck I`m brown! I`m American Indian! I don`t care if they ask me if I`m a citizen. I would be arrested and thrown in jail if I jumped the fence into Mexico.
  32. Profile photo of DinoVelvet
    DinoVelvet Male 18-29
    28 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:38 pm
    Actually the questioning of ones legal status in Arizona is done only after the person is detained or pulled over by committing the infraction or violation of another law. So say if you get pulled over for speeding then if the policeman decides to will he ask for a Greencard or any other evidence of legal status in this country. Btw ever heard of dash cameras? Big brother keeping people in check since 1984:P
  33. Profile photo of PHXbunny
    PHXbunny Female 18-29
    58 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:38 pm
    @tonyjet....again.

    I don`t care what it pays. I DON`T HAVE A JOB SO i DON`T GET ANYTHING RIGHT NOW! I don`t care if it pays me in turnips! (Please learn to type or English. Preferably both.)
  34. Profile photo of Berenice
    Berenice Female 13-17
    536 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:40 pm
    You know, the first thing I saw on the picture was the background too...
  35. Profile photo of bizzarmind
    bizzarmind Male 18-29
    390 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:40 pm
    I completely agree with PHXbunny. I live in New Mexico, and while we dont have nearly as much of a problem as Arizona does, I still see it on a daily basis. I currently work construction, and the number of illegals who work around me is appalling. I know several people who are here legally who would love to have the jobs the immigrants take.
  36. Profile photo of PHXbunny
    PHXbunny Female 18-29
    58 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:46 pm
    @DinoVelvet

    THANK YOU! So many people can`t figure that out or just don`t listen. I`m glad to hear that I`m not the only one that remembers that little part of the law.

    @bizzarmind

    THANK YOU! For another first hand account of how bad the situation really is.
  37. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:51 pm
    "I`d love to take one of the jobs that an illegal immigrant has the only problem is I`m over-qualified (I too have a degree)"

    See, that`s the problem... People with a so-called degree think very highly of themselves and want a job that makes them rich. Nothing wrong with that, except... Well, you know, that little thing called REALITY!

    Anybody (And his dog) gets a degree these days, c`mon, let`s face it people. You gotta have a PHD to being to even feel secure about your future. We (I`m talking about the whole world) need to make University the next High school, another basic level of education we all gotta have... It was a while ago when a degree could give you a comfortable life without having to worry about your job
  38. Profile photo of bizzarmind
    bizzarmind Male 18-29
    390 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:51 pm
    Personally I wish there would be a bill like this passed in NM. Ive got nothing to hide, I am actually a CITIZEN.
  39. Profile photo of a1butcher
    a1butcher Male 40-49
    4809 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:53 pm
    PHXbunny >>> No offense but you sound like a racist.

    "I don`t care what it pays. I DON`T HAVE A JOB SO i DON`T GET ANYTHING RIGHT NOW! I don`t care if it pays me in turnips! (Please learn to type or English. Preferably both.)"


  40. Profile photo of jops360
    jops360 Male 30-39
    689 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:54 pm
    PHXbunny:
    with the new law they CAN walk into your house if they have reasonable suspicion.
    they can pull you over for reasonable suspicion.
    the only suspicion they could possibly have for driving is your skin color OR any other ofence.
    and the only thing they need to get in your house WITHOUT A WARRANT is some old lady calling the cops and telling them "there`s an illegal in there" and BOOM here they come.
    read the ACTUAL LAW before you make bull poo claims about what they can and cant do.
  41. Profile photo of bizzarmind
    bizzarmind Male 18-29
    390 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:55 pm
    @ a1butcher

    How does she sound racist? She is simply stating how she would be grateful for anything she receives. Since when are turnips racist?
  42. Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:55 pm
    iceblack, unless you start your own business ;)
  43. Profile photo of bizzarmind
    bizzarmind Male 18-29
    390 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:57 pm
    Why does it make a difference that all they need is reasonable suspicion? If you don`t have anything to hide, then it really does not matter. Yes, it may be an inconvenience, but in the long run, It will make no difference in your life as long as you aren`t trying to hide anything.
  44. Profile photo of Lillim
    Lillim Female 30-39
    269 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:58 pm
    Not to be rude, but there seem to be some holes in this argument.
    First and foremost (and yes it`s picky, but come on...) there are some blatant misspellings in this letter, for example: "On a side not". I can understand the "?"s where apostrophes should be... kind of... perhaps he has a funky font or something. Regardless, please use spellcheck.
    Secondly, if he`s truly trying to keep this as "unbiased as possible", why the ending? The first e-mailer did not include any flames, profanity or name-calling ("bring it bitches"?). Also, and again perhaps trivial, if he`s trying to be unbiased, he neglected to allow that the side he`s arguing against (i.e. the original email) has a valid point.
    Moving on, there seems to be a large chunk of the email missing (see the "side not"). Perhaps that is where his academic research was entered, to thwart all the anecdotal evidence being thrown about?
    I have more commentary, but well
  45. Profile photo of Lillim
    Lillim Female 30-39
    269 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:59 pm
    (sigh. Last post said 989 characters, but still got cut off...)

    I have more commentary, but well, it`s just that: commentary.
    Long story short: Thumbs down. Original e-mailer was more convincing.
  46. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 4:59 pm
    I think I might start a turnip plantation Pui...

    Hey PHXbunny, want a job?
  47. Profile photo of DinoVelvet
    DinoVelvet Male 18-29
    28 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:00 pm
    Thank you PHXbunny, Anyone want to point out the glass house Mexico lives in. Anyone read their constitution, their laws are even more strict.

    http://www.michnews.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/400/17742/printer
  48. Profile photo of PHXbunny
    PHXbunny Female 18-29
    58 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:01 pm
    @a1butcher
    How is that racist? I was asked if I would take the job of an illegal for the same pay they make. That was my response. Please read all previous post before you go calling me a racist. I am not a racist. I am 50% American Indian and dated a Hispanic man for two years. I am not racist. I`m an American citizen and proud of it.
  49. Profile photo of jops360
    jops360 Male 30-39
    689 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:02 pm
    bizzarmind:
    if that`s the case then why don`t we also get rid of the rest of the Constitution
    no freedom of speech
    no right to bear arms
    no female voters
    the list goes on...
    if it starts here then where will it end up?
    they are YOUR right to so don`t forget it
  50. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:07 pm
    "they are YOUR rights to so don`t forget it"
    Actually jops... Maybe he is not offended because he is not the direct target. All of you guys could be bothered once or twice about something "suspicious" but that`s it

    When there`s a constitutional violation of your rights, that`s when you`ll get out there to the streets and ask for your "Natural" rights to be respected

    We all have rights for the very fact of being alive, it doesn`t matter if we are illegally living in another country
  51. Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:08 pm
    Illegal immigrants may do some dirty jobs nobody else wants (although I find that debatable. I`m sure someone homeless wouldn`t mind that job), but it`s wrong that their employers get to have cheap labor by barely paying these people anything!

    I find it odd that people are worried about the rights of these illegal immigrants but they`re just being exploited as long as they`re under the table anyway :\
  52. Profile photo of DinoVelvet
    DinoVelvet Male 18-29
    28 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:08 pm
    Ok this is a working link of the Mexican constitution.
    Mexican constitution
  53. Profile photo of Lionhart2
    Lionhart2 Male 40-49
    8306 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:08 pm
    "The writer to whom I am responding to"?

    Might want to forget Spanish and learn to speak English properly if you hope to get very far in Law.
  54. Profile photo of Hellioness
    Hellioness Female 18-29
    133 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:09 pm
    bizzarmind and PHXbunny: I`m with you guys. I live in NM as well and only hope our state will pick up the same bill.
  55. Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:09 pm
    You see, the standard counter to the standard "nothing to hide" argument is that legal immigrants have to carry around their documents now or be faced with some sort of detention and confirmation of their status, that is, detention because of their "look". Whether the detention is a call to dispatch while you wait on the sidewalk, or a trip downtown depends on the technology and training of law enforcement. Driving, however, is a different and much more complicated matter. One could make the argument that seeing a brown face driving a car is enough to satisfy reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed, and thus any brown driver could be pulled over for that reason. I doubt the Supreme Court would certify that alone to satisfy R.S, but when combined with a high immigrant population area or something, it MIGHT hold up in court. Plus you have the classic "The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one`s time defending scoundre
  56. Profile photo of bizzarmind
    bizzarmind Male 18-29
    390 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:10 pm
    They aren`t taking anyone`s rights away. Illegal immigrants have no rights. They should not be here in the first place. The only effect the law has on myself is that it is easier for an officer to look around my house if he thinks there is something fishy going on. I have no problem with that whatsoever.
  57. Profile photo of DinoVelvet
    DinoVelvet Male 18-29
    28 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:16 pm
    What also grinds my gears is how it`s okay when a person is asked to show identification when they go and buy alcohol, get stopped at a random DWI/DUI?seatbelt enforcement police checkpoint. Make certain credit card purchases, go to airport and get a ticket. But in Arizona OMG! This is intolerable, it`s like Nazi Germany BLAH BLAH BLAH. Hypocrites.
  58. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1610 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:18 pm


    I don`t know where you are getting your statistics Lawbored but here is a comparison of crime rates between New York and Houston from 2006. Houston has one of the largest populations of illegal immigrants in the country, next to Los Angeles.
  59. Profile photo of jops360
    jops360 Male 30-39
    689 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:19 pm
    what about the LEGAL immigrants that are still affected by the law or any other brown skinned people that the general populous might think are Mexican. do they not DESERVE right either for being too brown?
  60. Profile photo of Hellioness
    Hellioness Female 18-29
    133 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:20 pm
    What rights are being taken away from illegals? None, they have NO rights in this country and I am tired of everyone saying that they do. Immigrate legally and you will have the same rights as every other citizen of the country. Until then you have no rights and should be be allowed to receive government aid.
  61. Profile photo of PHXbunny
    PHXbunny Female 18-29
    58 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:21 pm
    @jops360
    Do you mean THIS bill? Here is part of sb1070.

    The law makes it a state misdemeanor crime for anyone to be unable to prove lawful residence in the United States upon being asked to provide such proof, and requires police to make a reasonable attempt, when practical, to determine immigration status if there is cause to suspect they are illegal immigrants. Only when making lawful contact, anyone who appears to be an illegal alien upon reasonable suspicion and fails to produce such proof is subject to arrest without warrant, and, upon confirmation of the individual`s illegal status by the federal government, a fine of at least $500, and up to six months in jail.

    Just re-read it. I don`t see Hitler`s signature on it anywhere. All you need to prove you are legal is YOUR DRIVERS LICENSE! IAB, Please post the bill in it`s entirety. Here is the link to the state issued pdf. www.azleg.gov /legtext/49leg/ 2r/bills/ sb1070h.pdf take out the spaces.
  62. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:21 pm
    DinoVelvet

    Actually most of those laws make great sense...
    "participation in the country`s political life" law has the purpose of keeping the country`s sovereignty

    "property rights" law was established to avoid easy access for invasions to our country

    "denial of equal employment rights to immigrants, even legal ones" law has the same purpose as the first... Did you even read the "in the public sector" part?

    "never being treated as a real mexican" law says: ...bans (them) ...from serving as military officers, Mexican-flagged ship and airline crew, and chiefs of seaports and airports


    I could go on and on. It`s called, as I said, sovereignty.
    If USA creates law to protect their own sovereignty, although I doubt your government even knows what that is, then it would be ok... The wrong part is to target people for "suspicious reasons"

    Suspecting that anybody is doi
  63. Profile photo of Hellioness
    Hellioness Female 18-29
    133 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:21 pm
    Jops, legal immigrants aren`t losing any rights. Should I throw a fit next time I buy a pack of cigarettes because they asked for my ID?
  64. Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:22 pm
    @Lilim: First, something got lost in translation between my Gmail and his Outlook thus all the weird typos. Second, what exactly are the flaws in my argument? Third, the flame comment was directed at our beloved comment section, not the original email, I suppose I should have been more clear about that and I apologize to PHXBunny if she construed it in that way. Forth, if you would read the cut out portion that I commented, you would find that I, in fact, conclude that constitutional challenges to the bill are likely to fail. Fifth, I did not insert any of the mentioned research because I sincerely doubt anyone wants to read law review or academic journal articles.

    @Lionhart2: Point taken, bad, grammar, has, always, been, a, weakness, of, mine. So much comma splice.
  65. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:24 pm
    PHXbunny

    It`s not about people being able to prove they are legally living over there. It`s about the very fact of being FORCED to prove it only because a cop is having a s#ity day or your neighbor doesn`t like you

    Based on, of course, your color
  66. Profile photo of DinoVelvet
    DinoVelvet Male 18-29
    28 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:27 pm
    Excuse me lawtard but why do you keep using the offense term "brown people" GO F#%K YOURSELF! Secondly all illegal who come into this country are not all MEXICAN! There are other races involved and whites from European countries also cross that border.
  67. Profile photo of PHXbunny
    PHXbunny Female 18-29
    58 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:27 pm
    Hey Jops360,

    Are you just running your mouth for the hell of it? I posted the link to the REAL bill in text form( the link button didn`t work right). Take out the spaces in the link and go read the bill before you post again. Notice how they keep saying, "ILLEGAL"? Illegal immigrants do not have Constitutional rights under United States law. Now if the have a Green card or a work visa then, yes, they have rights.
  68. Profile photo of Nintenutts
    Nintenutts Male 13-17
    91 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:28 pm
    A lawer? If he`s going to be a lawer he should work on his punctuation.
  69. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1610 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:28 pm
    Oh, and I used to work as a claims adjustor in Houston. The insurance claims business is a complicated one and a lot of people aren`t informed enough to make sure they have uninsured motorist or they simply can`t afford the addition to their premium. I was appalled at how many claims would come, where an illegal immigrant would cause an accident and either leave the scene, run away leaving their buddy with a green card who has no insurance to stay, or sometimes bail on foot if the car was in bad enough shape and they were alone.

    As a personal trainer I hear lots of stories from people in the construction business about being robbed by illegals and they can`t do much about it because the contractors don`t have any valid names or paperwork with which to hold them accountable.

  70. Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:28 pm
    @Brassbull: Try http://www.jstor.org/pss/1389806 for a comprehensive look at immigrants and crime. The link you posted has a serious nexus problem when talking about illegal immigrants and not just crime in general.

    I wish law school was more like the I-A-B comments sections... It`d be way more fun
  71. Profile photo of Hellioness
    Hellioness Female 18-29
    133 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:29 pm
    iceblack: I still don`t see the issue with being "forced" to prove you are a LEGAL citizen of this country and not breaking federal laws. That`s like having an issue because the cops searched the home of a suspected serial killer. It`s called evidence and if you can`t prove that you legally belong her. GTFO
  72. Profile photo of rawryness
    rawryness Female 13-17
    111 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:31 pm
    Since when do question marks completely replace apostrophes?
  73. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:33 pm
    Hellioness

    The "evidence" to suspect a killer would be... I don`t know... Blood, finger prints, witnesses?

    What`s the "evidence" to suspect an immigrant? You got it... How "They" look

    See?
  74. Profile photo of Skyira
    Skyira Female 18-29
    1134 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:34 pm
    i don`t know whats entertaining, reading the emails or the comments... :|
  75. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:34 pm
    btw... That`s exactly what I said, that there is no issue about you having to prove it. The issue is the Reason for you being asked to do so

    Sorry if I wasn`t clear
  76. Profile photo of DinoVelvet
    DinoVelvet Male 18-29
    28 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:35 pm
    @Iceblack

    That`s what I wish was the view here on immigration, there are certain special interest groups here in the states and Mexico that think our immigration laws are too oppressive. Then again this bill was always the law it will stand because it doesn`t contradict federal law. Immigration laws can only be made my the federal government, Arizona basically made it so it is going full speed ahead with enforcing the already existing federal laws.
  77. Profile photo of Geogypsy
    Geogypsy Female 18-29
    2546 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:35 pm
    Alright, who put a letter and an I-A-B window in the way of that topless blonde woman??!!
  78. Profile photo of Rick_S
    Rick_S Male 40-49
    3290 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:36 pm
    I would except his argument that illegals take the jobs Americans won`t except for one thing. The jobs they take exist everywhere in this country. Even in places that aren`t right next to a border, with ready access to a large source of illegal aliens. I know that illegal aliens are EVERYWHERE, but I don`t believe that there are enough in every community to fill the jobs he`s talking about. If Americans take the jobs in other communities, and the small business owners survive, then they can do it anywhere.
  79. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:37 pm
    Based on, of course, your color

    Yeah well...

    When was the last time you came across an illegal immigrant of Germanic descent?

    I don`t see too many Africans jumping a fence then abusing public aid systems.

    And Asians, as well as both the others, would have to cross an ocean as opposed to a river to get here...

    So, yeah. It just sounds SOOO hard to carry around an ID in your wallet when you`re out and about. I can`t imagine how those of Latin descent will ever get by.
  80. Profile photo of PHXbunny
    PHXbunny Female 18-29
    58 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:38 pm
    @iceblack

    All you have to do to prove you are legal is show your drivers license, state issued ID or green card. Something you should be carrying any way due to an older state law that says all adults have to have id on them when not at home. It`s the same as getting carded at a bar.
    I put up that bit about being over-quaified because of my degree just because Nate was flaunting his law degree when trying to discredit me.

    @Lawbored

    Yes, you did piss me off. However, I have chosen to ignore you because you do not back up any of your argument with any facts. By the way, what bad neighborhood do/did you live in? South Phoenix? I doubt it.

    Link to Arizona sb1070h. Also known as the immigration bill.
  81. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:40 pm
    "@tonyjet....again.

    I don`t care what it pays. I DON`T HAVE A JOB SO i DON`T GET ANYTHING RIGHT NOW! I don`t care if it pays me in turnips! (Please learn to type or English. Preferably both.)"

    please learn to finish your sentences. if you really want a job go to a fruit field and ask for a job, theyll give you one.
  82. Profile photo of Fleh
    Fleh Male 18-29
    231 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:41 pm
    I`m not bored enough to read all of this crap
  83. Profile photo of antagonizer
    antagonizer Male 18-29
    508 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:43 pm
    Wow. You Americans have done more to dump on your constitution in the last 10 years than Castro`s done to Cuba in the last 50. Your politicians can talk you into anything can`t they?

    Here`s the facts that you anti-immigrant types aren`t getting. More people in your country doesn`t mean less jobs, it means more people to sell things to therefor more business and a better economy. As the economy grows, so do businesses, and interestingly enough, that means MORE JOBS. The best part of this cycle is that it`s self sustaining. More people=more jobs=more money=more people. and so on and so on. etc. It`s the sole reason the American dollar is worth more than the Canadian...more people and greater population growth. With that in mind, send them up here. We`ll be glad to welcome them to Canada. The US will end up as a third world nation, but hey...your jobs are protected.
  84. Profile photo of shpook
    shpook Male 18-29
    67 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:45 pm
    Now THIS is entertainment.
  85. Profile photo of iceblack
    iceblack Male 18-29
    551 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:45 pm
    PHXbunny

    I already said that it`s not about having an ID or not, but about cops asking you for it only for your looks... I was hoping that what I wrote would be read and understood first

    Altaru

    Yeah... You`re right. Not many white-ish people (Actually, maybe none) will be asked for their ID. There could be geographic reasons, as you pointed out, but what about brown-ish people who are legally living there?

    They are going to be constantly accused
  86. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:45 pm
    @PHXbunny what reasonable suspicion??? i dont know so please explain what would be reasonable suspicion... to you of course.
  87. Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:46 pm
    antagonizer, I don`t think many people here are anti immigration, but anti ILLEGAL immigrants.
  88. Profile photo of antagonizer
    antagonizer Male 18-29
    508 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:48 pm
    That`s great. Then send your ILLEGAL immigrants up here too. They help the economy as well and here they won`t be chased down with dogs and guns.
  89. Profile photo of curubs
    curubs Male 18-29
    14 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:48 pm
    I was even more bored after reading this
  90. Profile photo of pui
    pui Female 18-29
    3574 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:48 pm
    How the hell does an illegal immigrant help the economy?
  91. Profile photo of PHXbunny
    PHXbunny Female 18-29
    58 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:49 pm
    @tonyjet

    Do you live in Az? And how is my grammar relevant to this argument? Yes, I know I made a comment about your grammar first. Sorry. I couldn`t help myself. I find it very difficult to control myself when someone can`t figure out how to use spell check, punctuation and capitals. I know this is the internet but it sill annoys me. Again, sorry.
  92. Profile photo of skypirate
    skypirate Male 18-29
    2422 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:50 pm
    you forgot to cite....
  93. Profile photo of Skyira
    Skyira Female 18-29
    1134 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:50 pm
    sometimes.... im glad i live in New Hampshire..... :|
  94. Profile photo of Handersan
    Handersan Male 18-29
    35 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:50 pm
    I love how people use the big not common words to make themselves sound smarter, and make everyone think they have the last say and that they`re right. Anecdotal? Come on Nate, I actually had to look that one up.
  95. Profile photo of ManicRapture
    ManicRapture Female 13-17
    682 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:55 pm
    ahhhhh.....law students.....ahhhhh....future criminal defense lawyers.
  96. Profile photo of ultimakewl
    ultimakewl Male 18-29
    833 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:56 pm
    "So, yeah. It just sounds SOOO hard to carry around an ID in your wallet when you`re out and about. I can`t imagine how those of Latin descent will ever get by."

    just like it was SOOO hard for those black people to only sit in the backs of buses or use separate water fountains/bathrooms/schools/etc

    its not about how difficult it is to obey the law, its about the fairness and equality of the law
  97. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:57 pm
    i actually live in california. which i believe has a immigration problem too. the difference is the tolerance level.

    you just cant overlook that this country is the powerhouse it is today not only because of the great leadership that we had, but also because of the illegal immigrants from whatever country you can think of that did their cheap labor.
  98. Profile photo of HarryBalszak
    HarryBalszak Male 40-49
    1590 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:57 pm
    I don`t call them `illegal immigrants,` I call them `unregistered Democrats.`
  99. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:58 pm
    its not about how difficult it is to obey the law, its about the fairness and equality of the law

    LIKE I SAID BEFORE, IT`S NOT EVEN A RACE ISSUE THAT YOU SHOULD CARRY ID ANYWAY.

    Seriously. Even if it WASN`T a law that you have to carry ID, you should.

    If you`re not, it can cause a hole HOST of problems, proving you`re a legal citizen being the least of them.
  100. Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 5:59 pm
    @PHXbunny: It certainly was not my intention to make it personal. I did try to focus only on your argument and not on you. In addition it does not matter where I, or you, lived in Phoenix as this would just be to support more anecdotal evidence. As for facts, I`ve provided a study for my immigrants do not increase crime contention in a previous comment. For the alleged job displacement that illegal immigrants cause: http://www.jstor.org/pss/2083409 and http://www.jstor.org/pss/27503312 unfortunately the latter is on point but does not include an abstract so you`d have to login to JSTOR to read it, if you can still access your degree granting college`s library website, they usually offer you a way to do that.
  101. Profile photo of IshiiDaFishy
    IshiiDaFishy Male 18-29
    773 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:01 pm
    @Handersan.

    Try school.To put in a way you can understand,"thats a big kid word." You pass grade 6 yet?
  102. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1610 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:01 pm
    You are not going to find a comprehensive list of illegal activity committed by illegal immigrant. Without a valid name, SSN, etc., there`s nothing to prove they committed a crime. If they are not convicted then their case can`t be used as an example or entered into any statistical measurement. A large percentage of crimes committed by illegals are still open for investigation or have not been reported because it would be pointless.

    I tried to go back to your first four posts to quote you but they mysteriously dissappeared. Your argument was that cities with high numbers of illegal immigrants do not show higher crime rates when compared to those with fewer illegal immigrants. If you had been specific and said data shows illegal immigrants are the cause of less crimes than citizens I would not have posted that link.

    You`re awefully smug LB. I think you`re gonna make a great lawyer. Plus I would really like to know where your first four posts went.
  103. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:04 pm
    "I don`t call them `illegal immigrants,` I call them `unregistered Democrats."

    there you go.... another ignorant comment..
  104. Profile photo of the_windy
    the_windy Female 18-29
    1589 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:04 pm
    Figuring out what picture you have as the wallpaper was the most interesting part of this post.

    Really now, stop posting stupid political news about the US. If you haven`t noticed, there are people who come to this site who don`t live there. Why the hell would I care about how screwed up America is? If I wanted to find out facts about what`s going on in your political system, I`m for sure not going to think this as the first website to visit.
  105. Profile photo of PHXbunny
    PHXbunny Female 18-29
    58 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:04 pm
    @Iceblack

    They still have to have "reasonable suspicion" before they can ask you for id. If they did not have a valid reason they would be violating the civil rights of real citizens. I completely understand what you were saying. I`ll post the link to the bill again so that everyone else can be clear on it too.

    @tonyjet

    "reasonable suspicion" means that you are about to do something illegal (casing a bank, following school kids home, etc.) or that you are doing something illegal, (breaking into a house, drinking in public, driving with a broken tail light, etc). They have protocol and extensive training to learn how to spot this type of activity. Just having dark skin or an accent is not grounds for, "reasonable suspicion."
  106. Profile photo of jops360
    jops360 Male 30-39
    689 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:04 pm
    this sounds like the patriot act but just for mexicans.
    PHXbunny >>>
    i see that your LIMITED IQ could never grasp that you have no idea what you are talking about. read it again but without your head up your ass.

    thank you and goodnight;)
  107. Profile photo of Agent0024blo
    Agent0024blo Male 18-29
    197 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:06 pm
    You had to look "anecdotal" up?
  108. Profile photo of TysonRP
    TysonRP Male 13-17
    312 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:07 pm
    It`s laws like this that make me glad I live in Canada. I have nothing against the US, I just don`t like laws like this; we don`t get that stuff here.
  109. Profile photo of PHXbunny
    PHXbunny Female 18-29
    58 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:22 pm
    @EVERYONE ON I-A-B

    Here is the link to the real bill. If you have a question on it go read it. It`s not hard to understand. If you don`t understand some of the terms please look them up. I am sick to death of people arguing about this. If you are legal it`s not a problem. I`m getting the Tums out now :(



    @lawbored
    I think I-a-b owes us both a t-shirt for getting them this many hits. lol. Just an idea.

    The immigration bill in question. Link to the Az state page.
  110. Profile photo of 3justme3
    3justme3 Female 18-29
    498 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:25 pm
    oh such an interesting law.
    We need kinda do need the illegals for our dying economy, but illegals are... you know illegal. The law isn`t really gonna help take them back to Mexico. It`s gonna get people all "It`s cause I`m Hispanic isn`t!?".. Because the law isn`t looking for illegal Canadians.. >.<
    I liked snl`s skit on "show me your papers"
  111. Profile photo of PHXbunny
    PHXbunny Female 18-29
    58 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:26 pm
    @jops360

    I`ve posted the bill THREE times! What part are YOU talking about?! Please quote it from the link I will post for you again. This is the link to the official bill on the official page for the Arizona state legislature.

    And thank you for showing how childish people argue. Very mature.

    Arizona state legislature bill sb1070 pdf format
  112. Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:28 pm
    @Brassbull All my comments are still here, though they mainly address the constitutionality of the bill, and the articles I linked to give data to support my claims. However, your point that my wording in the e-mail should have been different is valid, I would definitely change it if I could. Hopefully, admitting this mitigates some of my perceived smugness.

    Now I am bored. If you want some I-A-B style entertainment Youtube search "Gangster Pakistani Monkey" it`s pretty sweet and SFW
  113. Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:29 pm
    And I agree with PHXbunny, free t-shirt please!
  114. Profile photo of idontknow951
    idontknow951 Male 18-29
    908 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:29 pm
    "They still have to have "reasonable suspicion" before they can ask you for id. If they did not have a valid reason they would be violating the civil rights of real citizens. I completely understand what you were saying. I`ll post the link to the bill again so that everyone else can be clear on it too. "

    Papers please.
  115. Profile photo of PHXbunny
    PHXbunny Female 18-29
    58 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:33 pm
    Hey lawbored,

    Can you please do me a favor and tell me what you think about what JOPS360 is saying. I read the bill and I don`t see what he is talking about. Could you please enlighten us all?
  116. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:45 pm
    What the hell is up with the comments section ATM?

    I`m trying to make a comment, but every time I post it something f*cks up...
  117. Profile photo of obeydarklord
    obeydarklord Male 18-29
    1360 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:49 pm
    tl;dr. still bored *yawn*
  118. Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:56 pm
    @PHXbunny: I believe, though it`s certainly not clear, that he is using the usual argument in all questions of constitutionality that "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin. It`s a pretty classic argument, but to use it in this case you would have to say that the bill gives up an essential liberty. A point that we would probably disagree on, but then again, 5 out of the 9 Supreme Court Justices will probably agree with you, at least on the constitutionality, so it doesn`t really matter what we think
  119. Profile photo of Brassbull
    Brassbull Male 30-39
    1610 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 6:58 pm
    I think some of your comments just shifted, which seems to happen sometimes in these forums when the first open.

    I`m not sure if fairness mitigates smugness, but I do appreciate you being fair.
  120. Profile photo of msieg007
    msieg007 Male 18-29
    2035 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:06 pm
    So I definitely recognized what the desktop picture was. And I`m kind of ashamed.
  121. Profile photo of Lillim
    Lillim Female 30-39
    269 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:08 pm
    It seems to me, from the comments posted, that you are not actually advocating a side. One of the comments you posted states that, “anecdotal evidence and generalizations are not the proper base for government policy”. I agree, but why did that merit writing a letter that came across as unprofessional, less than well-thought-out, and reactive to another email rather than purely informative?

    Moreover, why did IAB post these if they are trying to stay out of politics? And if they are trying to meddle in politics, is a site that regularly posts NSFW collections the best place to do so? No offense Lionhart et al, just curious.
  122. Profile photo of Lillim
    Lillim Female 30-39
    269 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:08 pm
    2nd, if the comments you posted are a part of the email, then I can see why PHXbunny would feel you were attacking her. You write, “she makes a lot of broad generalizations about illegal immigrants”. I see none of these in her email, nor do I see where she claims “Republicans are only rich white people, rednecks, and the religious right”. The only commentary I see her make is “ used to be middle of the road on politics, but now all you seem to do is go crazy for the Democrats and make anything they don’t like sound like the end of the world”. If you’ll note, that is a comment about IAB’s practices, not Dems, Reps or immigrants.
  123. Profile photo of Lillim
    Lillim Female 30-39
    269 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:08 pm
    @ Lawbored: 1st, I can understand the apostrophe to ? mistake, that was consistent enough to spell computer error. 3rd (yes out of order), It doesn’t matter at whom the flame comment was directed, it’s still unprofessional and uncalled for, but that’s just my 2 cents. 5th, links work wonders. I’m not saying that I would go back and read the articles, per se, but without them, you are only “citing” hearsay and opinion, which debases your argument somewhat.

    Going back: *Fourth*, if by “the cutout section that commented” you mean the 3 posts on the first page, I seem to be missing the connections between where your email cut out/ in, and where your comments fit in. The email cuts out at,“ trust academics, backed with data over a”. Where do your comments connect?
  124. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:10 pm
    Okay, trying this again...

    [quote">Papers please.[/quote">

    (let`s just pretend I`m an American of Latin descent here)

    May I ask why, officer?

    *as I pull out my identification*

    See how easy that was? Considering there are also laws that make it so that, if asked, an officer of the law HAS to tell you why they`re stopping you. And then, if the cop can`t come up with a good reason, then he probably would have stopped you anyway. He`s a racist cop, this law or a lack of this law wouldn`t change that.

    The only difference now is, he can bust you if you can`t prove you`re a citizen. And if you AREN`T a citizen, we can send your ass back.

    [quote">If you haven`t noticed, there are people who come to this site who don`t live there. Why the hell would I care about how screwed up America is?[/quote">

    So says the person who posted
  • Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:11 pm
    ;LKASDFP;O LGHQPOWERU IHPZOXSCNG; QASDWFGP HOIJHB!!!

    FRACK!

    ... Oh well... At least my comment is up there... Even if the view is... way off... Hopefully only for me...
  • Profile photo of HornyPanda
    HornyPanda Male 18-29
    213 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:11 pm
    Damnit! I`m going back to the Princess Leia Bikini Car Wash Video!
  • Profile photo of IkeRay
    IkeRay Male 18-29
    2704 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:12 pm
    a naked/half naked women as a desktop, this guy definitely doesn`t have his life straight as he can`t even land a girl. also, ? in place of `, something wrong with the computer, buddy? finally, "monkys"? yeah, I guess it doesn`t take much intelligence or thinking to get a law degree anyhow.
  • Profile photo of Zerj
    Zerj Male 18-29
    118 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:12 pm
    MONKEYS!!!!
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:18 pm
    @Lilim: Well this is I-A-B, without a little humor it just wouldn`t be right. I write enough stuff that is completely and entirely professional, this isn`t CNN. Plus, The e-mail makes a lot more sense when it`s not broken up. I responded to what I felt were invalid arguments and tried to explain the bill and its possible constitutional issues. The Republican part in generalizations was just an example of generalizations and I did include an example about Democrats to be fair. Why did I send it? Mainly to get a free t-shirt... But really, just a diversion from studying, after all, I was bored.
  • Profile photo of vodooshaman
    vodooshaman Male 70 & Over
    450 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:20 pm
    does every one forget that az was once part of mexico and not relize that we had a war and took it so thinking that there should be no mexicans is stupid..........Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. lets show a little pride in the fact that i am a product of people illegally coming here im irsh my famliy was denied so they sailed to virgina
  • Profile photo of msieg007
    msieg007 Male 18-29
    2035 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:22 pm
    @IkeRay: It`s Fancy`s (or at least some mod`s) desktop. How much sense does it make to type an email, take a screenshot of it, then send that in? And I`m willing to bet they did the desktop thing on purpose.
  • Profile photo of Lillim
    Lillim Female 30-39
    269 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:24 pm
    @ Altaru- Sorry `bout that... the view is a lil hosed for me too, not sure what happened there.

    @Lawbored- I don`t agree with all of your comments, but that`s as it may be. Regardless, good luck on your studying, I`m right there with you, sadly.
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:25 pm
    Well, the desktop wasn`t my computer, fancylad loves Britney Spears I guess. The formating errors are not on my end, and its not like I got to look at the the screenshot, and what he cut out, before he posted it.
  • Profile photo of sender02
    sender02 Male 18-29
    189 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:29 pm
    I`m confused how you can live in Arizona, the kidnapping capital of the USA and one of the highest in the world, and not agree with the bill. I know the people making it aren`t in the right place but it`s results will be good regardless
  • Profile photo of hellohello10
    hellohello10 Female 13-17
    155 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:29 pm
    how come every time he is suppossed to use an appostrophe (or however you spell it)he uses a question mark?
  • Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:32 pm
    how come every time he is suppossed to use an appostrophe (or however you spell it)he uses a question mark?

    He`s already addressed that issue, and it was a computer error, not his.
  • Profile photo of Anie8170
    Anie8170 Female 13-17
    5 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:41 pm
    if you haven`t noticed look at the background lol
  • Profile photo of RAGEMONSTER
    RAGEMONSTER Male 18-29
    422 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:41 pm


    "That, my friends, is the minority vote."



  • Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:43 pm
    Wow, IAB so political! i like it!
  • Profile photo of DavioMagnifi
    DavioMagnifi Male 13-17
    600 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:43 pm
    So I don`t see what`s wrong with this bill. Asking a person if they`ve committed a crime is the same thing as asking them if they`ve committed a crime. Remember, illegal immigrants ARE criminals.

    It`s like saying you can`t ask a man with a ski mask and a gun if he`s the one who robbed that bank because "it`s just the way he dresses".
  • Profile photo of footpenis
    footpenis Male 18-29
    44 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:43 pm
    this guy is a moron he is a lawyer of my ass
  • Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:44 pm
    i knew Mcain was crazy.. with his little t-rex arms... yeah i know how he allegedly got them, btu thy still look funny. and yeah i wonder if they are going to implement this Faux law with all the illegal immigrants and not just the brown ones.
  • Profile photo of sender02
    sender02 Male 18-29
    189 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:44 pm
    That won`t help. Remember, most of the people against the bill forgot what the word "illegal" means.
  • Profile photo of DavioMagnifi
    DavioMagnifi Male 13-17
    600 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:54 pm
    Vodooshaman`s Post:
    "does every one forget that az was once part of mexico and not relize that we had a war and took it so thinking that there should be no mexicans is stupid..........Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. lets show a little pride in the fact that i am a product of people illegally coming here im irsh my famliy was denied so they sailed to virgina"

    So much wrong with this...

    First of all: Mexico held the Arizona territory until the Mex-Am war in the 1850`s (yes, that is the 1850 that happened 160 years ago). And that was a war so it`s completely different subject.

    Secondly: I doubt your ancestors came here illegally. They probably came either during the potato blight in 1845 or after that. They most likely came looking for jobs or they were already rich. If you were rich you wouldn`t be arguing about something you know nothing about, so I`ll assume they were poor.

  • Profile photo of DavioMagnifi
    DavioMagnifi Male 13-17
    600 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:58 pm
    Either way they came here in boats. Legally. And although they were opposed by Nativists (as depicted by Daniel Day-Lewis in Gangs of New York, seen a few posts down) they were not illegal immigrants.

    And if you feel like arguing that "Stupid Americans" just took all the Native American land, then don`t even try. North Americans have always been way more appeasing than the Spanish Conquistadors and various Caribbean Governors.
  • Profile photo of sender02
    sender02 Male 18-29
    189 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:58 pm
    For the millionth time, the background is fancylad`s, not his. if your going to attack this guy, point out the fact that he`s wrong. Everyone stop the petty mudslinging
  • Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 7:58 pm
    This guy is so credible with that picture he has in the background. WTG dumbass.....

    ... WHY aren`t there LAWS against THIS? Seriously, this kind of stupidity is what we REALLY need to be making laws against...

    Jesus... IT`S FANCY`S BACKGROUND YOU F*CKING MORON.

    I`m starting to believe the comment in the Korn video for "Evolution" when it says that the average IQ is going down...
  • Profile photo of djlazar
    djlazar Male 30-39
    185 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 8:06 pm
    YOU STUPID COLLEGE drat!! I`m an electrician and a wetback TOOK MY JOB once. I had to drating train him!! Tell sheet rockers and carpenters who lose their jobs to illegal immigrants that bullpoo and you`ll get bent over and drated like the bitch you are!!
  • Profile photo of sender02
    sender02 Male 18-29
    189 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 8:12 pm
    that means you have one of those jobs that "have too low of a wage for americans to take, so illigal imigrants take it." its such bull.
  • Profile photo of avalon
    avalon Male 18-29
    187 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 8:21 pm
    Since some people have such a hard time with the concept, lets do it this way .. If I am in a private area without permission that is: illegal, correct! If I am in a country without proper authorization that is: okay...correc...wait, what? Why is one okay, and the other not? It really comes down to a basic rule, is it legal or not? If people wish to come to this country, by all means do so, but do it the right way...don`t swim, jump, run, fly or use magic potions to get over here...just do it the LEGAL way....WHY IS IT SO HARD?!?
  • Profile photo of sender02
    sender02 Male 18-29
    189 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 8:27 pm
    It`s because the people coming across illegaly have something to hide like drugs or a criminal record. you can`t come across legaly if you have those FOR GOOD REASON
  • Profile photo of gatorade777
    gatorade777 Male 18-29
    1194 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 8:36 pm
    this is stupid and the guys retarded. "hey im in law school so im going to talk down to people." All jobs based around construction, painting, and other labor jobs of such are being taken by illegal immigrants. americans willingly worked in these professions such as my dad and uncle.
  • Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 8:38 pm
    You`ll make a fine lawyer.
  • Profile photo of im_smart
    im_smart Male 18-29
    99 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 8:38 pm
    "It`s because the people coming across illegaly have something to hide like drugs or a criminal record. you can`t come across legaly if you have those FOR GOOD REASON"

    strongly disagree
  • Profile photo of sender02
    sender02 Male 18-29
    189 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 8:47 pm
    you think we should allow drug dealers and killers into the country?
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:00 pm
    Other than being a resident of Arizona, I don`t believe his law degree gives him any more credibility on economics and labor, which is the crux of his statement.

    Regarding "credibility," just for context, people who get good grades in law school do NOT become criminal defense attorneys if they can help it. So, um, theres that.

    Also, WAY TO ENDORSE BUSINESSES EVADING TAXES BY PAYING UNDER THE TABLE. You`re right, those businesses would go under - IF THEY FOLLOWED THE LAW. Instead, they illegally evade immigration and tax law by paying illegal immigrants under the table, who, if injured, have NO RECOURSE, nor ability to get workers comp BECAUSE THEIR EMPLOYER DIDN`T PAY TAXES.

    You seem to say its OK to break the law if the alternative is going out of business. I`m sure Character and Fitness would LOVE to know that you endorse blatant, continuous tax fraud to stay in business.

    ALWAYS GET PAID UPFRONT BUDDY.
  • Profile photo of OmgZelda
    OmgZelda Female 18-29
    1593 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:01 pm
    I thought he said that he lived with the worst parents in Phoenix. I giggled.
  • Profile photo of avalon
    avalon Male 18-29
    187 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:01 pm
    It`s a big circle of fail to be honest, people that have means and are not threatened by this, see the bill as being bad, people that do not have means see it as good. My dad is in construction. He has lost many a job to people that are illegal because they will do it for cheaper, who does that bone? Him. The upper crust will say, well I`m a lawyer/doctor/etc I see no issue with Jose cutting my lawn for .13 cents, but I sure as hell don`t want Joe to do it..he wants 2.00 to do it. Again, I have no issues with people coming into this country LEGALLY, because we know who they are, what they have done etc. If someone sneaks into the country ILLEGALLY that is a different story, who is he, what has he done...why is he so scared of doing it the RIGHT WAY?
  • Profile photo of FlameOfUdun
    FlameOfUdun Male 18-29
    1222 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:03 pm
    I can`t stand that crap about "business owners wouldn`t be able to continue their business if they had to hire Americans".
  • Profile photo of ShadowVamp
    ShadowVamp Female 18-29
    362 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:04 pm
    I live in AZ and I know two people who immigrated here legally in the last five years. They both were related to US citizens (one had an aunt here, one had a cousin here) who were willing to sponser them. They both seriously considered crossing the border illegally because it was so difficult to get green cards, even with sponsers. Now because of this law they both have to carry their papers everywhere with them until they have lived here long enough to become citizens. Even after that, because they are obviously of Hispanic/South American descent (one is from Mexico, one is from Brazil) they can be pulled over and even arrested until they have somebody prove that they aren`t illegal. This law horrifies me and makes me sorry that I am both an American and an Arizonian.
  • Profile photo of Loveabye
    Loveabye Female 18-29
    163 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:06 pm
    For a law student, he REALLY can`t type for crap.
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:08 pm
    LOL - Hey "Law Student," maybe you should post less and study more.

    DO NO TRUST ONE THING THIS PERSON SAYS IS THE LAW.

    lawbored said: "racial profiling is not now, nor has it ever been illegal"

    The Supreme Court said: "he Constitution prohibits selective enforcement of the law based on considerations such as race." Whren v. United States, 517 U.S. 806, 813 (1996).

    STUDY MORE SON.
  • Profile photo of Loveabye
    Loveabye Female 18-29
    163 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:10 pm
    I don`t see why so many people are up in arms about this law... Carry your documents around proving you`re a citizen, and get the drat over it. The end. Under no circumstances is ILLEGAL immigration okay.
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:10 pm
    LOL - Hey "Law Student," maybe you should post less and study more.

    DO NO TRUST ONE THING THIS PERSON SAYS IS THE LAW.

    lawbored said: "racial profiling is not now, nor has it ever been illegal"

    The Supreme Court said: "he Constitution prohibits selective enforcement of the law based on considerations such as race." Whren v. United States, 517 U.S. 806, 813 (1996).

    STUDY MORE SON, and I pray none of your clients even have legitimate constitutional complaints, because you don`t know con law for dick.
  • Profile photo of pnolan
    pnolan Male 18-29
    64 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:11 pm
    There is a problem with drug dealers crossing the border, HOWEVER, the drug dealers are going back and forth, and I think they SHOULD be stopped, but there are plenty of people who just don`t qualify for citizenship, and need to get better living conditions for themselves or their families. I support these people living here.

    The only way you are going to stop immigration is to help mexico build a proper infrastructure without the cartel. So, rather than patroling the border, why don`t you take your militia down there and take down drug compounds and help the people in need.

  • Profile photo of Aadya
    Aadya Female 18-29
    55 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:13 pm
    Not all coming in to the US have a criminal record, many are innocent people trying to find a better life. Yes, they are going about it the wrong way. But the drug cartels in Mexico don`t often give you the time to get your green card before they tell you they are going to murder your family if you don`t do as they say.
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:19 pm
    "I don`t see why so many people are up in arms about this law"

    I realized something in the other thread the other day, that people who "don`t understand" what the big deal is think people pissed off love illegal immigrants. NO, screw them, deport them, whatever.

    You aren`t considering the fact that U.S. Citizens can be detained under this law if they don`t have their "papers." U.S. Citizens need not carry any identification whatsoever. However, this law will have the effect of causing Hispanic Americans to be afraid to leave the house without their "papers," lest the police detain them in violation of the Equal Protection Clause.

    ITS NOT THE IMMIGRANTS I CARE ABOUT - ITS THE HISPANIC CITIZENS WHO WILL FACE ILLEGAL DETENTION WHEN THEY HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG.

    And as I noted, despite what Mr. "I`m a Law Student But I Don`t Understand Con Law" said, racial profiling is illegal.
  • Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:19 pm
    goaliejerry, unless you weren`t referring to the email writer, I don`t think he was defending/endorsing businesses getting cheap labor by hiring illegal immigrant. He was providing a counter argument to the "illegal immigrants are taking jobs from Americans!", if the illegal immigrants weren`t there, the job still wouldn`t be available because the business would go under.
  • Profile photo of Aadya
    Aadya Female 18-29
    55 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:20 pm
    "
    You aren`t considering the fact that U.S. Citizens can be detained under this law if they don`t have their "papers." U.S. Citizens need not carry any identification whatsoever. However, this law will have the effect of causing Hispanic Americans to be afraid to leave the house without their "papers," lest the police detain them in violation of the 4th Amendment.

    ITS NOT THE IMMIGRANTS I CARE ABOUT - ITS THE HISPANIC CITIZENS WHO WILL FACE ILLEGAL DETENTION WHEN THEY HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG.

    And as I noted, despite what Mr. "I`m a Law Student But I Don`t Understand Con Law" said, racial profiling is illegal."

    /cosign Its one things to have them ask you for your i.d. but anyone can fake an i.d. which creates questions & blah! Which leaves room for them to double question and basically give you grief for nothing unless you have your birth certificate and 5 people there to say you are who the documents say you ar
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:21 pm
    Why are there a ton of people posting here with very few posts? Don`t normally see such a high percentage of "new" posters in one thread...
  • Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:22 pm
    Also, the claim that they only take jobs that Americans won`t do is another big lie. There have been a number of ICE raids in mid western meatpacking plants over the past few years with hundreds of illegals arrested. The media was eager to tell the sob stories of these "hard-working families." What they didn`t tell you is that those jobs were all filled in a matter of days with American citizens who were happy to have them.
  • Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:22 pm
    First, I would remind you all that the plural of anecdote is data. The claim that crime is lower where lots illegals live is pure bullpoo. We`ve had lots of illegals move in here, and crime is through the roof. You see Spanish names in the police blotter every day. They`ve overburdened the schools, and the charities can`t keep up with the needs. Yeah, they pay taxes. A typical "household" is 4 families in a rented hovel with 4 men earning $8/hr. at the meat plant. They pay no income tax, no property tax, very little sales tax, and they have a dozen kids in school that all need special services. We lose big time on them before they ever show up at the emergency room.

  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:24 pm
    "I don`t think he was defending/endorsing businesses getting cheap labor by hiring illegal immigrant."

    Thats a fair reading, I was being argumentative. Just hate to see a future lawyer write so poorly, and then misstate very clear constitutional law principles by saying "racial profiling is not now, nor has it ever been illegal."

    BOOM - zero credibility in my book.
  • Profile photo of xxPinkxx
    xxPinkxx Female 18-29
    3829 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:24 pm
    well at least everyone has stopped whining about the health care bill now.
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:25 pm
    And I actually tend to agree with Olie here on this one point - with unemployment so high right now, plenty of US citizens would take these jobs over being unemployed.
  • Profile photo of Loveabye
    Loveabye Female 18-29
    163 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:27 pm
    @goaliejerry-
    I live in Arizona, so I would appreciate you NOT telling me what I do and do not understand, and NOT tell me whether I am considering something or not. I DO understand all the repercussions. You know what? They`ll drating work it out. They really will. If not, they`ll drating repeal the law. Do you really think it matters that a bunch of people are talking about this on a website? Will you yelling at us fix this law? I can only hope so for right now, because otherwise this is kind of a stupid thread.

    I think they`ll figure it out, think of it as BETA testing. Really, really pooty BETA testing.
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:27 pm
    "We lose big time on them before they ever show up at the emergency room."

    And I`m sure you know the new healthcare law does ZERO to address the lost costs when illegal immigrants show up at the ER with no money.
  • Profile photo of Loveabye
    Loveabye Female 18-29
    163 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:29 pm
    "Why are there a ton of people posting here with very few posts? Don`t normally see such a high percentage of "new" posters in one thread..."
    ___
    Some people visit the site and don`t post much... I`ve had this account since middle school, more than 4 years, and I just don`t post very often.
  • Profile photo of Loveabye
    Loveabye Female 18-29
    163 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:29 pm
    Speaking of healthcare... drat that poo!
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:30 pm
    loveabye - I spoke in generalities, and your statement did not seem to indicate concern for affected US citizens. Thats all. You might be fine with your fellow citizens having their rights abridged in the process of "working it out." Others aren`t so ok with states violating the Constitution. One violation of the Bill of Rights is too much for me.
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:31 pm
    "Some people visit the site and don`t post much"

    Well yeah, maybe it was just random coincidence.
  • Profile photo of Loveabye
    Loveabye Female 18-29
    163 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:35 pm
    @goaliejerry

    I didn`t ever say I was okay with it... I just kind of hate that all these people, many of which do not have to deal with it, are getting all upset. Yes, it really is unfortunate, it is a bad law, but we can`t do much except write angry letters... However, many people may have problems noticing this, but...uh... this country is kind of in turmoil and getting worse.
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:41 pm
    We`re always in turmoil. Its life! Thats what makes it fun!

    Just read about another crazy provision, though. THIS LAW ALLOWS CITIZENS TO SUE THE GOVERNMENT OVER ENFORCEMENT. This is unheard of in the law. The executives of a state have to allocate limited resources - they can`t go and arrest every deadbeat dad, for example, when there are murderers to stop.

    But NOW, in Ariz., citizens can FORCE their local police to drop what they are doing and crack down on illegal immigrants - removing executive discretion over the use of scarce resources - or face a $5000 a day penalty.
  • Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 9:59 pm
    The pure vitriol aimed at this sensible law is jumping the shark. There are people saying they are going to boycott `Arizona Ice Tea` over this. I`m not kidding folx. NY Times

    The thing is, Arizona Beverage Co. is a New York company has been since it started in 1992. The misinformation is getting really absurd, Being righteously indignant takes over any logic or reason.

  • Profile photo of SaiyanRocker
    SaiyanRocker Male 18-29
    101 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 10:30 pm
    The author of this email is most definitely an IAB user. He desktop wallpaper is of a topless chick.

    I also didn;t bother to read this, lol.
  • Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36829 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 11:20 pm
    I live on the border... the jobs americans want? Like truck driving... they do it for less than minimum wage making it damn near impossable to make aliving here. So yeah, they DO take the jobs LEGAL inhabitants want
  • Profile photo of Peveo4589
    Peveo4589 Male 18-29
    430 posts
    April 28, 2010 at 11:39 pm
    Two points:
    1.This new Arizona law is bullpoo.
    2.Nice side boob in the background.
  • Profile photo of chillimac
    chillimac Male 18-29
    438 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 12:44 am
    tl,dr.
  • Profile photo of cuthere2
    cuthere2 Male 30-39
    317 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 2:09 am
    Interesting email that throws out a lot of opinions, yet presents them as if they are facts. How deceptive. Please show me the proof. You made a CLAIM that these jobs are jobs Americans would find unacceptable, so where`s the proof? Source and link please!

  • Profile photo of horror102
    horror102 Male 40-49
    108 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 3:03 am
    I`m 41 years old with a mortgage and kids trust me I’m not to proud to clean a toilet if it means my kids are fed. The simple fact is they (the illegals) are breaking the law. They did not come to America the proper way. I applaud Arizona for doing this! If you want to live and work here get your papers PAY YOUR TAXES and live the America dream. It’s that simple.
    P.S. try to sneak in to Mexico from the U.S. and see what will happen to you
    Good Luck with that.
  • Profile photo of gbrzeatetee
    gbrzeatetee Male 30-39
    174 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 3:14 am
    LOL @ the retard saying "They did not come to America the proper way"

    Apparently, the proper way was "first." They didn`t come first. Hey, why would they get to enjoy the American way of life if their ancestors didn`t kill Natives? A line has to be drawn somewhere, amirite?
  • Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 3:26 am
    "The misinformation is getting really absurd, Being righteously indignant takes over any logic or reason".
    ----
    Why aren`t republicans outraged? Every American should be outraged. If there was ever a time to guage which party is the protector of the constitution now would be that time.
    Safford Unified School District v. Redding was the supreme court case where an (no surprise) AZ school, strip searched a child for suspicion of ibuprofen. The one judge that didn`t think this was an absurd un-American over-reaction was Clarence Thomas a republican appointee. Republicans support of a Nazi style police state should concern everyone.
  • Profile photo of cuthere2
    cuthere2 Male 30-39
    317 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 3:33 am
    "LOL @ the retard saying "They did not come to America the proper way" "

    Uh,. I think it`s obvious that what he means is they knowingly break our laws to come here illegally. So their first act is to ignore our laws, and an overwhelming percentage of these illegals are hard core criminals with more than 5 arrests for VIOLENT crimes.

    Would you care to know the statistics I pulled straight from border patrol and FBI crime stats on how many murders, rapes, attacks, thefts etc. are inflicted on American citizens by these illegals?
  • Profile photo of cuthere2
    cuthere2 Male 30-39
    317 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 3:40 am
    from District Attorney John M. Morganelli before the House Subcommittee on immigration, Border, Security and Claims) -

    "Over 25% of today`s federal prison population are illegal immigrants. In some areas of the country, 12% of felonies, 25% of burglaries and 34% of thefts are committed by illegal aliens."

    12% of felonies - You know, MURDER, RAPE, Violent crimes, etc.

    -In Los Angeles, 95% of 1,500 outstanding warrants for homicides are for illegal aliens. About 67% of 17,000 outstanding fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens.

    - There are over 400,000 unaccounted for illegal alien criminals with outstanding deportation orders.

    We can even talk about the 8 - 12 billion dollars of our tax money is wasted trying to deal with these crimes perpetuated by illegals.

    So apparently potentially hurting the feelings of LAW BREAKERS is suddenly more important than the deaths of thousands, rapes of hundreds of thousands, child
  • Profile photo of Batmanners
    Batmanners Male 18-29
    4006 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 3:42 am
    I like how the e-mail used question marks instead of apostrophes. That?s hilarious.
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 3:45 am
    @goaliejerry Yay, someone picked up on, by far, the most controversial statement in the email. The portion of the opinion you quoted in Whren is not actually about racial profiling, it is an Equal Protection clause claim, that is, a claim of discriminatory application of laws based on race, not a 4th Amendment claim.
    A profile is a collection of factors that contribute to the reasonableness of reasonable suspicion. The Supreme Court has never ruled that race may not be a factor in these profiles, however some lower courts have. This is why I say that it is a disfavored factor to include in profiles. In fact, profiles, in general, are a disfavored basis for reasonable suspicion.
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 3:45 am
    U.S. v. Ruiz, U.S. v. Bradley, U.S. v. Anderson, all state, generally, that race may not be the sole factor for a stop, but may be used in consideration of the totality of circumstances for reasonable suspicion. A stronger argument is that race, because it is so connected with illegal immigration MAY be the basis for founded legal suspicion as in Ruiz. The opinion in Ruiz used the language of “circumstances of offense”; the circumstances of the crime of illegal immigration lend themselves very easily to racial appearance as a factor for reasonable suspicion. This all depends on how the police are trained and how the law is applied though, and I doubt that they would be trained to apply it in an unconstitutional way. Thus, I doubt any constitutional challenges to the bill would succeed as I said before. Though if there is one, Obama’s administration will find it, he is a constitutional law scholar after all. I apologize for the poor citing in this, the comment box does
  • Profile photo of cuthere2
    cuthere2 Male 30-39
    317 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 3:48 am
    -80,000 to 100,000 illegal aliens who have been convicted of serious crimes are walking the streets. Based on studies they will commit an average of 13 serious crimes per perpetrator.

    -In 1980, our Federal and state facilities held fewer than 9,000 criminal aliens. At the end of 2003, approximately 267,000 illegal aliens were incarcerated in the U.S. at a cost of about $6.8 billion per year. Guess what the 2009 figures were?

    -At least 4.5 million pounds of cocaine with a street value of at least $72 billion is smuggled across the southern border every year.

    -Illegal aliens commit between 700,000 to 1,289,000 or more crimes per year.


    -Illegal alien sexual predators commit an estimated 130,909 sexual crimes each year.

    Child sex crimes amongst illegal aliens seems to be exceptionally high. But all the Liberals want scream about is race. Let`s all turn our heads and ignore the hundreds of thousands of children victims here. Nice you have
  • Profile photo of Batmanners
    Batmanners Male 18-29
    4006 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 3:52 am
    Note: My previous comment was an attempt at completely missing the point of the message conveyed.

    As far as my personal opinion goes. If there are immigration laws, the people who want to reside in America, and work there, should obey those laws. It`s a simple concept to me, if you don`t have proof of residency, you should be sent back where you come from. For a police officer to ask you for proof of residency is like a police officer asking for registration and proof of insurance. That goes with or without motive for the officer to ask for those documents.

    It`s nothing against Mexicans, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, etc... There is a system in place to accept immigrants into the country, if they actually followed the system, they would not have to fear deportation.

    There is an advantage to hiring cheap labour, but as it has been presented in the above text, it`s almost like slavery, with a low pay instead of housing and food.

  • Profile photo of 66stang
    66stang Male 18-29
    225 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 4:03 am
    so you say they HELP the economy? there are major hospitals here in California shutting down because of illegal immigrants. The ILLEGAL immigrants go to the emergency room everytime they have a sniffle or ache because they can not be turned away and hospitals can`t turn them in to authorities (aparently they`re afraid the morons won`t go to the hospital for life threatening injuries for fear of deportation). They can not get drivers licenses and don`t get auto insurance, and then when they get in accidents its the person they hit left paying the bill. A large portion of illegal immigrants do random landscaping work, which in the past teenagers, homeless, and other unemployed used to do. As for businesses, there are plenty of businesses that survive legitimately without hiring illegals, the ones that hire them are not doing it to survive, they are doing it to make more profit by avoiding taxes, which if you think about it HURTS the economy.
  • Profile photo of Batmanners
    Batmanners Male 18-29
    4006 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 4:12 am
    "Racial Profiling"

    If more than 90% of ILLEGAL immigrants fit the criteria of "looks Latino", and there is a law that says "Don`t be an illegal immigrant" (there is), then is there any harm in asking the individual for proof that he is allowed to be in your country? I do not think so.

    Racial profiling is arresting the first black man you see when you are told "There has been a liquor store robbery".

    See examples:
    "There has been a fight at the local pub" -Irishman

    "There was a school shooting" -White kid

    "Terrorism" -Muslims, Pakis, Indians (ignorance is so racist sometimes)

    I understand that the issue of asking someone if they are a criminal (illegal immigrant means it is not legal for them to be here, therefore it`s a crime), and to prove that they are not, IS racial profiling.

    Sure it`s wrong to assume someone is a criminal. But the police are
  • Profile photo of Batmanners
    Batmanners Male 18-29
    4006 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 4:13 am
    Stupid broken character limit counter.
  • Profile photo of 66stang
    66stang Male 18-29
    225 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 4:22 am
    Last year a border patrol officer was shot to death by a convicted illegal alien who had been detained and released by police because of this political correction BS. Over the years officials have found sex farms in nearly every major city in the south western US. The "farms" are usually covered areas in fields, usually there are 6-20 girls with an average age of 11-16 that have been kidnapped from Mexico and smuggled into America to become sex slaves. These young girls are forced to have sex, usually unprotected, numerous times a day.
    If a child is born in America he becomes a citizen, we then refuse to deport his parents because he is a citizen and we can`t leave him without parents. And then to make matters worse we give him welfare for the next 18 years because his parents don`t exist on paper.
    People are dying, children are being forced into sexual slavery, and the economy is suffering, and we want to protect these people because we are afraid of offending peopl
  • Profile photo of Adora
    Adora Female 18-29
    79 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 4:22 am
    I have lived in Az all but 3 years of my life and I am for this bill.. It is a law that was put in place long before this bill came across the desk of Brewer, the bill just enforces the law. EVERYONE in az has to have an ID. Regardless of who you are, what color you are, or where you come from. If you are over 16 you legally haveto have an ID when you leave the house.And that is just common sense as well. The fact that people are American, Or Mexican or Canadian has nothing to do with it. In fact as an American i am happy that the cops are finally doing their job of asking for identification. Also, jobs are being lost because of illegal immigrants, my brother was working at a place with illegal immigrants, because he was the only person there who was legal and only spoke English they decided to only speak spanish.Causing him to lose his job for the fact that he couldnt understand what hisjob for the day was, nor could he complete it in a manner that was acceptable to the bossman.
  • Profile photo of datroman
    datroman Male 13-17
    36 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 4:39 am
    so this man has successfully just OWNED the 1000 character limit ... regardless of argument, he wins everybody ... just go home
  • Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 5:10 am
    Dey tk urr jerrrrbs!!!!!
  • Profile photo of bungled
    bungled Male 30-39
    271 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 5:19 am
    germany 1942.. where are your papers,
  • Profile photo of Maelstrom_x
    Maelstrom_x Male 18-29
    1883 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 5:28 am
    WTF is the picture on the desktop? Show us dammit!
  • Profile photo of Maelstrom_x
    Maelstrom_x Male 18-29
    1883 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 5:38 am
    The funniest thing about this email (other than the fact that he doesn`t really attack both sides of the argument) is that it compares illegal immigrants to slaves and mentions the low pay and terrible working conditions they live in.

    Here`s a question. What`s the biggest complaint about the Arizona bill? That it takes away some Constitutional right held by a non-citizen. Let`s ignore the fact that our Constitution only applies to actual Americans. So, we`re taking away some kind of right, but I guess they don`t have the right to have decent working conditions or decent pay? If the law doesn`t pass, they`ll go on being second class citizens. Democrats don`t care about the deplorable quality of their lives, they only care about the votes illegals bring. Republicans just want the slave labor.

    By far the saddest thing about all this is the bill treats being here illegally as (gasp) a crime. Um, duh?
  • Profile photo of Maelstrom_x
    Maelstrom_x Male 18-29
    1883 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 5:43 am
    You should see the amount of effort they put behind sending people here on visas back. People that actually have an education and can do something intellectually productive, they`re lucky if they get renewed and if their visa expires... Oh, Uncle Sam doesn`t like it when that happens.
  • Profile photo of Powderdd
    Powderdd Male 18-29
    12 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:15 am
    @Maelstorm
    This law isn`t structured to only target "illegals"....that`s the problem that most people have with it.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:24 am
    @powerdd:

    Actually this is for everyone who thinks this will result in random profiling.

    I challenge any of you to go get the attention of a cop (run a stop sign, jaywalk, shoplift, piss on the sidewalk) and see if they ask for your ID. I`ve got 100 bucks that says they do 100% of the time.

    All this law says, is that if you don`t have ID, they can inquire as to your citizenship status if you don`t speak English.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:26 am
    To add to batmanners point...

    During all of this, at any time, when they mention illegal immigrants, ALL OF YOU pictured a Mexican in your head didn`t you?

    That`s what I thought.
  • Profile photo of pmarren
    pmarren Male 40-49
    4575 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:35 am
    I say we bomb Mexico with giant bombs made of Skittles... later, when their teeth fall out, the problem will be solved.
  • Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:35 am
    Maelstrom, the law passed, and it doesn`t take away constitutional rights away from just illegals,. It takes them away from anyone who a cop perceives might be illegal. In Arizona, that automatically means "Hispanic". The fact is that we have illegals in this country from all over the world, including countries like Russia and Canada. One could make an argument that it`s easy to determine if someone is from a Latin country like Mexico, but how do you determine if someone is from Canada? (other than they say "eh" all the time :)
    My point is that the law is supposed to go after all illegals, but the way it`s written, it clearly only goes after Mexican illegals, which makes it unconstitutional.
  • Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:37 am
    pmarren...you`re just jealous because you only have one tooth, you pussyphobe. KITTEH!!!!
  • Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:38 am
    @ Auburn: BRILLLLIANT!
  • Profile photo of GothicQueen
    GothicQueen Male 13-17
    4376 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:39 am
    I always giggle when people say illegal immigrants take jobs away from "hard working Americans". Really? You want their jobs? Ok go work out in the hot sun all day planting trees and cutting grass in front of a bunch of rich people`s town houses while they are throwing a party by a pool. You`ll get paid maybe minimum wage..maybe a little more depending on the services you did that day and if the people were nice enough to tip you.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:41 am
    @jtrebowski:

    "My point is that the law is supposed to go after all illegals, but the way it`s written, it clearly only goes after Mexican illegals, which makes it unconstitutional."

    Read my reply to powerdd a couple of posts ago, then come back. to this one.

    Done? good.

    Mexican illegals? Here`s a tip.

    Illigal = not protected by the constitution.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:43 am
    @gothicqueen:

    If I were poor, with no skills, as most people on welfare are, and there was no nanny state to take care of me, then yeah, I`d dig a ditch, do construction, pick strawberries, etc.

    Whatever it takes to take care of my family.
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:47 am
    @jtrebowski: That`s a pretty interesting argument. That, while the bill does explicitly target all illegal immigrants, those of Hispanic decent would, in practice, be targeted more often, which would raise some issues on 14th Amendment grounds. Not the stated intent, but rather, the effects are discriminatory based on race. Very interesting, I hadn`t thought of that and I seem to remember some cases that would support it. I`ll look that up and see. You`d have to wait and see how it is applied before anyone could make that argument in court though.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:48 am
    @lawbored: DAMNIT!

    ILLEGAL. ALIENS. ARE. NOT. PROTECTED. BY. THE. U.S. CONSTITUTION!
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:49 am
    Am I the only one who actually reads most of the point/counterpoints before he replies?
  • Profile photo of DiegoDeFuego
    DiegoDeFuego Male 18-29
    239 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:50 am
    @GothicQueen

    I work out in the sun all day long waiting for rich farmers to dump 5 hours of work on us at 4 in the afternoon right before they go home to their trophy wife in the big house in the country . Plenty of people will do hard work. Just because all you do is sit on your ass doesn`t mean thats what everyone else does, or is willing to do. When we have double digit unemployment if they take any job then they are taking too many jobs.
  • Profile photo of DiegoDeFuego
    DiegoDeFuego Male 18-29
    239 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:51 am
    Oh and i`ve been working there for five years and I`m paid minimum wage.
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:54 am
    @auburn: Yes yes, you`ve said that many times. I`m not taking about illegal immigrants that get arrested under the bill. Most people are, indeed, talking about people who are detained because they appear to be illegal immigrants but actually are American citizens. Detained including everything from a officer not letting you walk away, to getting hauled downtown for a few hours.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:56 am
    Bravo to you Diego. Without you, America would grind to a halt.

    Discovery made a show about this, called Dirty Jobs. Mike Rowe said in an interview, that if they went to a site to do an episode, and they even THOUGHT they employed illegals, they wouldn`t film it.

    EVERYONE DOING THOSE poo JOBS WERE AMERICAN CITIZENS!
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 6:59 am
    @lawbored:

    "Detained including everything from a officer not letting you walk away, to getting hauled downtown for a few hours."

    If you have proper identification and you have done nothing that warrants them holding you up, then this is an entirely different issue.

    Not having proper ID WARRANTS them to check you out. Not Nazi "may I see your paypaz" type, but just checking if you are legit, ESPECIALLY if you appear to be illegal.
  • Profile photo of Andrewb88
    Andrewb88 Male 18-29
    3 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:05 am
    "ESPECIALLY if you appear to be illegal."

    Appear to be illegal? That gives cops free range to pull anyone whos is brown or non-white aside for no reason and ask for papers. THATS nazi-ish
  • Profile photo of bram
    bram Male 18-29
    577 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:07 am
    Hey, I get paid minimum wage. I`ve only had one job where I didn`t get paid minimum wage, and while I have a job right now, before I found this job I would have settled for under minimum wage. I dare you to find a job that`s too low or nasty for me to accept. I have bills and tuition. Jobs are scarce, and even when you find one you have to fight for enough hours to pay the bills.
  • Profile photo of Andrewb88
    Andrewb88 Male 18-29
    3 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:13 am
    Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    So instead of it being unconstitutional to be searched without reasonable cause, they just changed what the word "unreasonable" meant.
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:20 am
    Well, the Supreme Court in Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada in 2004 did say it is not a detention to request that someone identify themselves, though providing documents to confirm that identity was not explicitly mentioned. Which means that reasonable suspicion allows the officer to request the person to identify themselves, but not necessarily provide a DL or something. In fact, most State statutes only require that a person state their name, unless they`re driving of course. The public policy they set out goes more towards protecting the officer rather than determining if a crime is being committed though. It`s a tricky issue, we`ll have to wait and see what they say about it when it gets up to them.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:21 am
    @andrew:

    I hate to put it this way, but if a cop is getting trouble from a brown person who doesn`t speak English, then he has the obligation to see if he is here legally.

    Cold hard truth.

    Aside from that, anyone who cannot speak English properly, regardless of color, and has committed an offense should be checked out.
  • Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:22 am
    @Auburn: The fourteenth amendment to the constitution is not confined to the protection of
    citizens. It says: `Nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property
    without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the
    equal protection of the law.` These provisions are universal in their application to
    all persons within the territorial jurisdiction, without regard to any differences of
    race, of color, or nationality; and the equal protection of the laws is a pledge of
    the protection of equal laws.` Applying this reasoning to the fifth and sixth
    amendments, it must be concluded that all persons within the territory of the
    United States are entitled to the protection guarantied by those amendments,
    and that even aliens shall not be held to answer for a capital or other infamous
    crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, nor be deprived of
    life, liberty, or property without due process o
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:24 am
    Yeah Lawbored. I agree.

    Thing in, I`ve been detained many times, especially in my youth while I was skateboarding.

    If a cop stopped to "harass" me, and I had ID, he would just give me grief and tell me to go on my way. Sometimes when I had no form of ID, he would put me in his car, or even cuff me and sit me on the curb (depending on mood, where I was skating, etc.) to run my SSN.

    I always understood this. I was young, and bitched about it to him when he let me go, but I also told him I understand.

    dratin` pigs lol.
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:24 am
    I should note again that the bill doesn`t actually say anything about requiring immigration documents to be carried, its more of a theoretical effect at this point.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:25 am
    @jtrebowski:

    "nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the
    equal protection of the law"

    Illegals are not under the jurisdiction of the Constitution, which is why it`s a problem in the first place.
  • Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:25 am
    @Auburn: Since when is being brown or not speaking English considered a basis for being a potential criminal?
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:25 am
    @lawbored:

    Legal immigrants are required by law to carry proof of their citizenship status at all times.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:26 am
    @jtrebowski:

    You didn`t read what I said.

    If you are committing a crime or violation at the time, is what I was referring to. Cops don`t have time to walk up to every brown man and ask them to say the ABCs.
  • Profile photo of MD1376
    MD1376 Male 18-29
    5 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:27 am
    I think the new law is great...and in no way infringes on the Civil Rights of citizens...if the Feds had done what needed to be done this would never have come to be. I applaud Arizona and hope more states start passing the same type of laws. Illegal is Illegal, no matter the reasoning.
  • Profile photo of Andrewb88
    Andrewb88 Male 18-29
    3 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:27 am
    Aside from that, anyone who cannot speak English properly, regardless of color, and has committed an offense should be checked out.

    Ok nvm i thought this was a intellectual discussion. im done
  • Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:28 am
    Hey, did anyone consider that if you go to Arizona and you`re name is "Jesus", you might get questioned by the cops?
  • Profile photo of panth753
    panth753 Female 18-29
    9253 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:29 am
    ""ESPECIALLY if you appear to be illegal."

    Appear to be illegal? That gives cops free range to pull anyone whos is brown or non-white aside for no reason and ask for papers. THATS nazi-ish"

    Agreed. When the Nazi army went out looking for jews, they looked for jews, but what does a jew look like? I have friends who are jewish and don`t look like the styrotipical jew. The same can be said about Hispanics. There are hispanics of every color and shade, so a mexican who looks white and is illgal in this country will not be pulled over while the brown looking person who is not only an american citizin, but also in the army can and will get pulled over.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:30 am
    To add to MD1376`s comment:

    This has been part of federal immigration law since it`s inception. Political correctness has stopped them from enforcing it. All the Arizona law does, it authorizing the police force to do what our federal government won`t.

    Kind of like California telling the federal government to drat off, we will let our sick people smoke weed.

    Same thing really, from a legal point of view.

    Viva la states rights! lol
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:32 am
    @jtrebowski:

    If I went to Arizona and my name was Jesus, I would expect Christians would freak out and start praying.

    @panth753:

    Please don`t take me out of context. If you commit a crime or offense, and THEN appear to be illegal, they have the obligation to ask for proof of citizenship.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:36 am
    I find it funny that the libs are freaking out, calling this to be like Nazis asking for "Zee paypas", but when we called them Nazi for the whole health care thing, they cried and said...

    Pelosi: “I have concerns about some of the language that is being used because I saw this, myself, in the late ’70s in San Francisco,” a choked-up Nancy Pelosi remarked in reference to claims of Nazi-ism by Tea Party members. “This kind of rhetoric was very frightening, and it created a climate in which violence took place.”
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:37 am
    @auburn It`s the "people who are detained because they appear to be illegal immigrants but actually are American citizens.", so they just have a DL and SSN, that would be ones that are negatively affected, if there are negative effects. Either way, I`m really running out of stuff to play devil`s advocate.

    As I`ve said before, I doubt any constitutional challenges would succeed as far as violating the 4th Amendment is concerned.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:38 am
    @lawbored:

    Damnit man. Let me know you are playing devil`s advocate! :)

    I thought you were on of "them".

    By them, I mean Madest lol.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:43 am
    The whole crux of this, and what people seem to be ignoring, is that in order for an officer to inquire, you must first be detained, questioned about doing something wrong in the first place.

    That`s why I made the argument about how everyone get`s ID`d when they do something wrong.

    In this case, if you do something wrong, and can`t speak English, and in most cases, are brown, you will be asked to prove you are legal to be here.

    If you are a legal immigrant, and brown, and can`t speak English, immigration law requires you have papers on hand at all times anyway, so it shouldn`t be a problem.
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:44 am
    I actually am quite the liberal, with a lowercase "l". I`m just trying to be objective.

    I disagree with reasons behind the bill and have issue with a lot of law that, as I see it, intrudes on natural liberties in general. But I recognize that under the system we have now, this bill isn`t really that radical.
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:46 am
    here is probably the strongest argument I`ve been able to come up with so far: Because reasonable suspicion is required to inquire about immigration status, and reasonable suspicion is just reasonable suspicion of a crime, and illegal immigration is a crime, then appearing to be an illegal immigrant is reasonable suspicion.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:55 am
    @lawbored:

    Yeah, but they have already said they aren`t going to take it that far.

    They are treading thin ice, and aren`t going to do anything that will make anyone too angry.

    The microscope is trained on their asses right now, and they know it.
  • Profile photo of genericuser
    genericuser Female 18-29
    317 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 8:18 am
    can i have a source please? your "research" is all well and good, but I have no evidence to think it was not made up on the spot.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 8:19 am
    @genericuser:

    Who are you talking to?
  • Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 8:20 am
    Um..Aubaurn? Lot`s of people from Mexico are named Jesus, and I don`t think people pray to them :)
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 8:25 am
    Hehehe. I know.
  • Profile photo of Slings
    Slings Male 30-39
    36 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 8:46 am
    While we may have differing opinions on the nature and consequences of this bill, I would like to thank *Nate* for his well constructed and thorough explanation of his perspective. It raises the bar of quality across this site for about 24 hours.
  • Profile photo of chimmeychang
    chimmeychang Male 30-39
    685 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 8:57 am
    you know, we can figure out how to harass illegals more efficiently, but the bottom line is this, it costs money to deal with them. deportation isn`t free, court appointed lawyers aren`t free, detaining them isn`t free...They will be here no matter what you do, as long as they can make money. Why not just issue temporary work visas, and give them a high tax rate with no chance of getting citizenship. It seems we are more quick to want to punish people instead of working out an arrangement that benefits all parties.
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 9:11 am
    There are, I think, 4 academic journal article posted in comments by me, probably in the first 5 pages that support my claims of crime caused by illegal immigrants and taking American jobs. There are case names for a lot of the legal argument spattered throughout, though some of it is just conjecture as this bill hasn`t gone to court yet. And generalizations and anecdotal evidence as poor choices to base governmental policy on is just a common sense argument.

    Thank you, to the few of you who made reasonable points, you help me evolve my understanding and analysis of the bill. I hope I did the same for some of you.

    I probably won`t check these comments anymore.

    Now back to monkeys having sex on the hood of a moving car...
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 9:15 am
    @chimeychang:

    Because the vast majority of them won`t consent to that, and remain illegal because they make more money that way.

    Not to mention the lowlife illegals who are here in gangs and collecting welfare.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 9:29 am
    Wait, what? The topic is over there. You must have missed that left turn at Albuquerque.
  • Profile photo of xhappyhourx
    xhappyhourx Female 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 10:29 am
    You mention he`s a law student as if that makes him so much more credible than the other person.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 10:34 am
    I would trust a law student over, say, a strawberry picker, or a day laborer.
  • Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 10:34 am
    Kolender v. Lawson. A similar law has already been argued before the Supreme Court. The court ruled that requiring a person to present identification is a violation of the 14th Amendment. Argue all you want here, but if this law is ever challenged, Kolender v. Lawson will be presented as precedent and the AZ law will be struck down. This law will never make it to the Supreme Court since a lower court will use the previous precedent to strike it down. Once struck down, I doubt the Supreme Court will hear it due to lack of any aspect of this law differing significantly from Kolender v. Lawson.

    The Police can ask you anything they want. You are only required to tell them your name and citizenship. You are not require to present any documents. The above is not true if you have been arrested, btw.
  • Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 10:37 am
    Idealistically, assuming a person is illegally in the U.S. by skin color is rather unethical by today`s standards.

    Realistically, there are probably 20 times more illegal immigrants here from Mexico than from anywhere else in the world. Lets be honest here. If we want to solve the vast majority of immigration problems, guess what we have to do?
    Immigrants are supposed to carry proof of citizenship at all times anyway, if I recall correctly.

    Yes, it sucks that we may have to resort to racial profiling, but it`s pretty difficult not to when immigration IS becoming a problem, and the majority of illegals ARE from Mexico. It`s the cold, hard truth.

    And no, we shouldn`t just grant them citizenship. We already have pretty lax laws involving citizenship and obtaining it; illegals need to go through the process just as anyone else has. Talk about "justice"....
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 10:47 am
    @nottaspy:

    How many times are you gonna copy and paste that?

    Here, lemee try.

    "The Police can ask you anything they want. You are only required to tell them your name and citizenship. You are not require to present any documents. The above is not true if you have been arrested, btw."

    Not co-operating with a police officer, is obstruction of justice, and will get you arrested.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 10:49 am
    Well said hwkiller, but allow me to expound.

    I don`t think "brown" will cause anyone to assume they are illegal. It will probably be the shifty answers they give the police when questioned, if they even speak English. That would probably be the biggest giveaway.
  • Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 10:53 am
    auburnjunky, stop watching TV crime shows. We are protected from self incrimination, so you don`t have to answer a damn thing other than your name and citizenship. The Supreme Court has also ruled that you cannot be required to present identification. So, you are completely wrong, it is not obstruction of justice.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 10:56 am
    Believe what you want Nottaspy. You show me evidence that the supreme court says we don`t have to co-operate with police when they question us about our identity, and I will show you a U.S. Immigration document that requires all immigrants to carry their papers (green card, work visa, visitation visa) at all times and to show them when asked by authorities.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:01 am
    I guarantee you that if a cop asks you something, and you don`t answer, you are going downtown.

    I know what you are talking about, as far as self incrimination goes. Problem is, when asked about immigrant status, if the person asked remains silent, he in that act is incriminating himself.

    Cop: What`s your name?

    Illegal: Juan

    Cop: Are you a citizen of the United States?

    Illegal: (thinks about what Nottaspy said " We are protected from self incrimination, so you don`t have to answer a damn thing other than your name and citizenship.") Mierda.
  • Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:05 am
    I have shown you proof that the Supreme Court says you are not required to present identification. Here it is again, Kolender v. Lawson, look it up.

    2nd, this has nothing to do with illegal immigrants. That seems to be the point you don`t get. This AZ law requires legal citizens to provide documents, and that has already been decided to be unconstitutional.

    If all you do is give an officer is your name and claim to be (true or not) a U.S. citizen, how then does the officer tell the difference between a citizen and someone here illegally? If the officer gets it wrong, he would end up violating a legal citizen`s 14th Amendment rights.
  • Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:07 am
    Cop: What`s your name?

    Illegal: Juan

    Cop: Are you a citizen of the United States?

    Illegal: Yes.

    ----new situation----------

    Cop: What`s your name?

    U.S. Citizen: Juan

    Cop: Are you a citizen of the United States?

    U.S. Citizen: Yes.

  • Profile photo of Isquire2
    Isquire2 Male 30-39
    13 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:07 am
    For a law student there seem to be a lot of spelling errors.
  • Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:11 am
    Lets expand that:
    Cop: What`s your name?

    Illegal: Juan

    Cop: Are you a citizen of the United States?

    Illegal: Yes. (OMG, he just lied and the cop has no way of knowing it)

    Cop: Show me proof of citizen ship as per sb1070.

    Illegal: No.

    Cop : You`re under arrest.

    ----new situation----------

    Cop: What`s your name?

    U.S. Citizen: Juan

    Cop: Are you a citizen of the United States?

    U.S. Citizen: Yes.

    Cop: Show me proof of citizen ship as per sb1070.

    Illegal: No.

    Cop : You`re under arrest. (Ouch, the cop just violated an innocent U.S. citizen`s 14th Amendment rights, just as sb1070 required him to do)
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:11 am
    @nottaspy:

    First of all, the supreme court case you cited has nothing to do with this.

    Secondly: "AZ law requires legal citizens to provide documents and that has already been decided to be unconstitutional."

    So you`re telling me, that if, just for the sake of argument, I am an illegal alien, and I swerve, or my tag is expired, and I get pulled over. The cop asks me for ID, I don`t have to give it?!

    Another example: I shoplift and am caught (remember, the law in AZ says that the offender has to already be in the act of another offense) and the officer, to do his paperwork, asks for an ID, or proof of immigrant status.

    Both of the things I said right there, are perfectly within the officer`s rights, and must be complied with, or you WILL be charged with obstruction and resisting.

    Don`t forget, this new law (old law as far as US Immigration law is concerned) doesn`t give cops the right to go around and ask brown people for
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:12 am
    Juan wouldn`t be able to say yes in my scenario, as he cannot speak English.
  • Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:21 am
    Your arguments are laughable. Duh, Kolender v. Lawson is different, sb1070 hasn`t been to the Supreme Court.

    Why don`t you show how Kolender v. Lawson doesn`t apply?
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:27 am
    I never said sb1070 has been to the supreme court. Neither has the U.S. Immigration statute that is worded the exact same. Why hasn`t it? Because it is constitutional, and if anyone ever fought it, the Supreme Court probably didn`t hear the case `cause it was absurd.

    You do know they can refuse to hear cases right? If this even makes it past Arizona courts, which it won`t, the US court will laugh it back home.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:29 am
    Okay. You asked for it. "Kolender v. Lawson. The court ruled that requiring a person to present identification is a violation of the 14th Amendment."

    The 14th Amendment, and the US Constitution does not protect Illegal Immigrants.

    There, happy?
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:32 am
    I`m out all. Peace, love, and chicken grease.
  • Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:34 am
    That makes a hat trick of fail on your part. You didn`t read the 14th Amendment, did you?

    "Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

    Catch the part "nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws". That means that everybody, illegal or not, get equal protection.

    Now, once again, in my expanded scenario, how would a cop even know he is illegally here? Is he wearing a T-shirt that says, "I`m an illegal alien"?
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:37 am
    Last thing before I go.

    An illegal alien is not under the jurisdiction of the Constitution, therefore it does not aplly to him/her.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:37 am
    apily = apply. How did I do that?
  • Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:42 am
    Fail again. "nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws". Do you not even understand "any person"? BTW, the Supreme Court has decided a LONG time ago that the parts that say "any person" allies to non-citizens as well. You may think you are winning this, but the Courts have ruled against your arguments repeatedly and for a very long time. Your arguments are completely ridiculous.
  • Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:43 am
    NottaSpy: It doesn`t work like that.

    Cop pulls over speeding car.

    Cop: What is your name ?

    Illegal alien: Juan

    Cop: Juan, Do you know why I stopped you ?

    Illegal alien: No Habla

    Cop: Por Favor, Necesito ver su licencia. (I need to see your license, Please)

    Illegal alien: no tengo una licencia (I have no license)

    Cop: Por favor, salga del coche (please, step out of the car)

    Ilegal alien: ¿Cuál es el problema? (what is the problem)

    Cop: su bajo arresto (your under arrest)

    This is no different than anyone else getting arrested for driving without a license.
  • Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:47 am
    When the person is booked in is when they`ll ask for ID, If your not driving.
  • Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:47 am
    CrakrJak, you are correct but that is because the Supreme Court made an exception for people who are operating deadly hunks of metal.

    Your example has been ruled a violation of the 14th Amendment if you remove the deadly hunk of metal.
  • Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:52 am
    They ask for ID when you are booked because you have been placed under arrest at that point. The reason sb1070 violates the 14th Amendment is because it allows Police to circumvent due process when placing people under arrest.
  • Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:54 am
    BTW, the reason an officer is allowed to ask for a Drivers License, is not for purposes of identification, but to make sure you have been certified capable of operating a motor vehicle. The fact that your name is on your Drivers License is just a bonus.
  • Profile photo of cheese6969
    cheese6969 Male 18-29
    522 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 12:09 pm
    what`s he looking at in the back?
  • Profile photo of fiizok
    fiizok Male 40-49
    591 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 12:44 pm
    Go Nate! Nice to see such a well reasoned, rational discussion of this issue.
  • Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 12:44 pm
    Republicans don`t respect the Constitution. It`s clear from their actions and from their comments.
  • Profile photo of DavioMagnifi
    DavioMagnifi Male 13-17
    600 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 12:52 pm
    1,000 Illegal immigrants cross the Arizona Mexico border every day.

    87% have criminal records.
  • Profile photo of DavioMagnifi
    DavioMagnifi Male 13-17
    600 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 12:56 pm
    Did you guys know it was illegal to ask some one if they were a citizen of the United States before this?

    If you are a citizen you have nothing to worry about. Don`t try to blame Arizona because you think this law is racist, blame the federal government who refuses to pay for guards to protect the border.
  • Profile photo of DavioMagnifi
    DavioMagnifi Male 13-17
    600 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 12:59 pm
    And if a person won`t talk to a police officer they aren`t going to be detained because they plead the fifth, it`s because they aren`t cooperating with the police officer.

    On a different note:
    Why do we have such high security when people go through US Customs, but we can`t keep criminals from WALKING over our border?
  • Profile photo of Dnyjec
    Dnyjec Male 13-17
    14 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 1:07 pm
    Is that a naked lady i see in the background?
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 1:12 pm
    @Nottaspy: I hate to do this as we are on the same side ideologically, but your argument is based on a faulty interpretation of Kolender. The Court in Kolender held that a California statute was unconstitutionally vague, not that police may not ask for I.D during a Terry stop.

    Also, constitutional challenges of this type are based on the 4th Amendment as a stop and questioning by the police is a "seizure" of your person that requires reasonable suspicion for a Terry stop, or probable cause for arrest.

    In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial Dist. Court of Nevada, the Court held that a cop requesting I.D is not a "seizure", which would require PC for arrest or RS for a Terry stop. Meaning that if a cop has reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed, which is a really low bar, you might have to give them your I.D if a statute requires it.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 1:35 pm
    @lawbored: `preciate that.

    @nottaspy: OWNED!

    @madest: Why is it all you can say is "Republican arr bad mmmmkay?" I`m not a Republican, and I am insulted by the claim.

    Got them $150 duckets my man?
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 1:42 pm
    "The portion of the opinion you quoted in Whren is not actually about racial profiling, it is an Equal Protection clause claim, that is, a claim of discriminatory application of laws based on race, not a 4th Amendment claim."

    No, that sentence IS about racial profiling, just that in that case the petitioners were complaining about the reasonableness of being pulled over under the 4th Amendment. Under the 4th Amendment, the court goes on to say, subjective motivations of the police officer have no bearing.

    Not so in an Equal Protection claim. Someone challenging this law likely wouldn`t be questioning the reasonableness of being pulled over, for example, and instead would be questioning why a law of general application appears to ONLY be applied to those of Hispanic origin.
  • Profile photo of genericuser
    genericuser Female 18-29
    317 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 1:45 pm
    @ auburnjunky

    the post,darling. I`m commenting on the post because that is what comments are for.
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 1:46 pm
    "Also, constitutional challenges of this type are based on the 4th Amendment as a stop and questioning by the police is a "seizure" of your person that requires reasonable suspicion for a Terry stop, or probable cause for arrest."

    No, I suspect the appropriate claim will be brought under the Equal Protection Clause, thus all of this discussion of Terry stops and the Fourth Amendment is likely irrelevant.

    No one will question the reasonableness of being pulled over. Instead, they will have to question the disparate impact they law has on Hispanic citizens.

    No law like this has really ever been tested in Courts, so its tough to predict how this plays out. I suspect its unconstitutional, as in reality, despite what the Governor and Law Enforcement will say, only Hispanic Citizens will be affected.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 1:49 pm
    @goaliejerry:

    "and instead would be questioning why a law of general application appears to ONLY be applied to those of Hispanic origin."

    It isn`t only being applied to people of Hispanic origin. It applies to all illegal aliens.

    It is a mere coincidence that 99.99999999% of illegals in Arizona are Hispanic. I can bet that if they happened to stuble across an illegal Slovic, or German, or Irishman, he would get the same treatment under the law.
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 1:50 pm
    "The 14th Amendment, and the US Constitution does not protect Illegal Immigrants."

    Constitutional challenges will NOT be based on the impact the law has on illegals. It will be challenged because of the impact it has on CITIZENS.

    NottaSpy is correct - the 14th Amendment is the proper provision under which to analyze the law. The 4th Amendment is not.

  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 1:52 pm
    @goaliejerry: It won`t have any impact on legal citizens.

    How do you figure it would?

    @genericuser: Oops. Sorry.
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 1:53 pm
    "I can bet that if they happened to stuble across an illegal Slovic, or German, or Irishman, he would get the same treatment under the law."

    Yeah, but would the cops have "reasonable suspicion" to doubt any of those people`s citizenship? Probably not, because THEY AREN`T HISPANIC.

    I`m done. Look, you seem to imply that cops will use the fact that people are Hispanic as giving rise to "reasonable suspicion" that they are in the country illegally. That right there is unconstitutional. If you don`t agree, whatever, watch the courts.
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 1:54 pm
    "We think these cases foreclose any argument that the constitutional reasonableness of traffic stops depends on the actual motivations of the individual officers involved. We of course agree with petitioners that the Constitution prohibits selective enforcement of the law based on considerations such as race. But the constitutional basis for objecting to intentionally discriminatory application of laws is the Equal Protection Clause, not the Fourth Amendment. Subjective intentions play no role in ordinary, probable-cause Fourth Amendment analysis."

    Direct quote of the paragraph in question. Some people, but not me, think that Whren is actually an endorsement of racial profiling. As the decision actually spurred on about 25 states passing statutes that explicitly outlaw it. AZ was not on of them.
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 1:54 pm
    "How do you figure it would?"

    Last time - American Citizens do NOT have to carry any ID at all. In Arizona, there will come a day when a Hispanic U.S. Citizen is detained by the police while they "check out" that person`s status. Why was that person detained when he had done nothing wrong, and was in fact a U.S. Citizen? HIS RACE.
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 1:59 pm
    The analysis of stops and asking for I.D are based on the 4th Amendment. Though someone, I think is was jtrebowski, did mention an argument under Equal Protection that might have some merit.
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 1:59 pm
    "We think these cases foreclose any argument that the constitutional reasonableness of traffic stops depends on the actual motivations of the individual officers involved."

    I know, I read the case.

    WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE REASONABLENESS OF THE STOP. We are talking about the reasonableness of the DETENTION based on SUSPICION of being in the country illegally. These are not the same. I`m not saying cops will pull over Hispanic looking people. I`m saying the police will end up detaining Hispanic Americans based on the fact that the "look" like they might be illegal. I`ll be curious to hear the Arizona government explain why it had "reasonable suspicion" to detain a Hispanic U.S. Citizen without referring to their race.
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 2:00 pm
    "Though someone, I think is was jtrebowski, did mention an argument under Equal Protection that might have some merit."

    That is what I`ve been saying for like the last seven posts - 4th Amendment analysis is not relevant.
  • Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 2:01 pm
    We`ll get some good case law out of this, thats all I am certain about.
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 2:01 pm
    Goaliejerry is right on this point: No state as far as I know requires I.D to be presented by statute. This does not mean, however, that the Supreme Court would rule it unconstitutional in Terry stop situations
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 2:07 pm
    I guarantee that whatever organization finally challenges the bill as applied with include both 4th and 14th amendment challenges. You need to read the posts I was responding to, rather than just mine. There is more than one issue involved with this bill.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 2:19 pm
    @Goaliejerry:

    I am not claiming I agree with anyone stopping anyone for looking a certain way.

    If a cop questions something for doing something wrong, and they don`t speak a lick of English, then they have reasonable suspicion, plain and simple. It does not matter what color they are.
  • Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 2:20 pm
    auburnjunky, I haven`t been owned, you have. lawbored disputed a 4th Amendment argument that I wasn`t even making. My argument is 14th Amendment, even though I think the 4th Amendment is involved.

    lawbored, I disagree, Kolender v. Lawson applies because sb1070 is constitutionally vague. Initially the 9th circuit (I think, been a while) overturned the California law based on the 4th Amendment, but the Supreme Court used the 14th Amendment. One of the justices noted that the law allowed the police to circumvent due process, just as sb1070 allows the police to circumvent due process.
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 2:25 pm
    I predict that the law will be held unconstitutional up to the Supreme Court, where it will be held constitutional. CLS my friend, CLS.
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 2:31 pm
    Kolender v. Lawson may apply on on 14th Amendment grounds, but not to requiring I.D`s, which was your contention that I was attempting to rebut.

    I don`t even like this bill, I don`t know why I always get stuck defending its constitutionality...
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 2:34 pm
    @lawbored:

    Because you are well educated, and well versed in constitutional law.

    You may not agree, but be that as it may, thank you for being honest.
  • Profile photo of lawbored
    lawbored Male 18-29
    34 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 2:40 pm
    I think goaliejerry, nottaspy, and I should write a amicus against it... C`mon it`d be fun
  • Profile photo of JudasInc
    JudasInc Male 18-29
    35 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 4:50 pm
    Nice wallpaper.
  • Profile photo of Powderdd
    Powderdd Male 18-29
    12 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 5:21 pm
    For those trying to belittle the implications of this law, search Mexican-Americans Already Arrested Based on Arizona Immigration Law on youtube. People will say "so what" but I know you wouldn`t just say "so what" if you were taken to jail for no damn reason.
  • Profile photo of sender02
    sender02 Male 18-29
    189 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:10 pm
    "no damn reason?" There is a reason! Illegal immigration is a crime, goddamnit! ILLEGAL immigration! on top of what they were originaly pulled over for!
  • Profile photo of sender02
    sender02 Male 18-29
    189 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:18 pm
    "no damn reason?" There is a reason! Illegal immigration is a crime, goddamnit! ILLEGAL immigration! on top of what they were originaly pulled over for!
  • Profile photo of Powderdd
    Powderdd Male 18-29
    12 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:45 pm
    @ Sender02

    Yes, if you`re not an illegal immigrant then it was for no damn reason. In the exact same way that getting arrested for any other crime that you didn`t commit is not right.
  • Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:46 pm
    The concept of law clouds people`s judgement. They think something is just because it`s law. Would it people okay to kill if it was legal? Would it be bad if it was illegal to watch work-out? The answer is no.
  • Profile photo of angelo0317
    angelo0317 Male 18-29
    331 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:54 pm
    The only law I believe in is the law of physics. Anyone else agree?
  • Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 7:54 pm
    @angelo0317

    yes
  • Profile photo of masterbob
    masterbob Male 13-17
    391 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 9:16 pm
    .......is there like a naked lady as his background or at least a half naked lady??
  • Profile photo of Philomath
    Philomath Male 18-29
    174 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 9:48 pm
    Spoken like a true lawyer! Avoid issues that don`t back-up your personal points, fluff your ego, belittle others` differing viewpoints while fluffing your ego some more.

    Valid points, yes, but this doesn`t really rebut the previous email. The closest point was that illegal immigrants don`t commit more crimes which he avoided by stating that areas with higher concentrations have lower crime. That isn`t the same as the population committing less crime outside their primary residence, as an academic would realize.

    Further, stating that they take jobs that Americans wouldn`t is a moot point when the opportunity is unavailable. If the company is unwilling to pay legal wages, they are unable to hire legal citizens.

    tl;dr: dude uses rhetoric to express his leftist view, IAB unsurprised
  • Profile photo of nissanxterra
    nissanxterra Male 18-29
    425 posts
    April 29, 2010 at 11:07 pm
    yawn. Long winded
  • Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    April 30, 2010 at 12:16 am
    "Avoid issues that don`t back-up your personal points, fluff your ego, belittle others` differing viewpoints while fluffing your ego some more."

    Philomath, are you describing the email or your own post?
  • Profile photo of Edgarska19
    Edgarska19 Male 18-29
    1045 posts
    April 30, 2010 at 4:12 am
    @philomath
    so you`re saying that illegal immigrants don`t commit crimes in their communities but rather travel to other places where there aren`t that many immigrants just to trow off researchers?

    yeah, that doesn`t sound drating retarded at all.
  • Profile photo of 66stang
    66stang Male 18-29
    225 posts
    April 30, 2010 at 5:08 am
    all of you saying we are being racist because we think mexicans when we hear illegal alien, you`re wrong. there are 460,00 estimated illegals in Arizona ALONE. Of those how many do you think are from Russia, or China, or Canada? I guarantee you if and when we have as major an issue with Canadian illegals as we do Mexican there will be a law for them as well. This is just a case of children in trouble crying to their parents that the other kids aren`t getting in trouble so why should they.
  • Profile photo of ladymanson
    ladymanson Female 18-29
    76 posts
    April 30, 2010 at 5:13 am
    I would take it more seriously if the defense attorney to-be had spell-checked
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    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 30, 2010 at 7:28 am
    "I guarantee you if and when we have as major an issue with Canadian illegals as we do Mexican there will be a law for them as well."

    Yeah, because Canadians are white and tend to be conservative, Obama would build a double wall with pit bulls between them.
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    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 30, 2010 at 7:30 am
    @Philomath:

    "If the company is unwilling to pay legal wages, they are unable to hire legal citizens."

    Misleading statement. If there were no illegal workers willing to work for less, the employer would be forced to hire Americans.

    Illegals tend to take home more than an American worker anyway. The employers pay them more in cash, because they don`t have to pay benefits and payroll taxes on them.
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    Philomath Male 18-29
    174 posts
    April 30, 2010 at 8:07 am
    @auburnjunky:
    I just didn`t want to expand my already-lengthy tirade further. If the company would willingly pay legal wages (taxes, etc.) then I don`t think it would be justifiable to say that illegals were "taking" those jobs, just increasing competition. As an illegal immigrant is much more likely to accept an illegal wage for myriad reasons, the company may not be willing to pay the extra. Legal citizens would be taking a large tax liability risk in accepting those wages that the immigrants would not. Therefore, the immigrants would have undercut the market for that job and effectively "stolen" the jobs by pricing the market below where a citizen legal could.
  • Profile photo of Philomath
    Philomath Male 18-29
    174 posts
    April 30, 2010 at 8:19 am
    @Edgarska:
    My point wasn`t that this is what is happening, but that when someone claims to be an "academic" and then shows this lack of understanding for scientific rigor, they lose the respect that they claim to deserve. The writer states that areas with higher concentrations of illegals have lower crime rate. He fails to take into account any other possible explanation for that except the one that supports his argument. Academic Fail! Especially claiming to be a lawyer, it would seem that scrutiny of details would be of high priority. Hence my statement of "spoken like a true lawyer..." wherein he ignores details weak to his purpose and focuses his argument on the points that support it. I have no problem with arguing someone arguing their opinion except if they claim to be an academic (such as myself) and then use anecdotal support.
  • Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    April 30, 2010 at 8:29 am
    @philomath:

    So now illegals just bring competition to the workplace?

    If I were broke, and needing to feed my family, I would take the jobs "Americans won`t take", but an employer makes more money hiring an illegal, because he can pay them the same, or slightly more, and not have to pay payroll tax, or benefits. The union representing his "legal" workers would call for a strike if he tried that with the legal workers.

    Unions suck, but that`s for another post.
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    scotland626 Female 18-29
    96 posts
    May 1, 2010 at 12:20 am
    I live in Arizona, and I can tell you right now that this bill is going to definitely change things around here, especially in the lower-middle class areas I like to call "the ghetto". It will get rid of alot of hassle for us Americans especially in the workforce, and also it`ll shorten our damn grocery store lines (they bring all 7 of their children and allow them to run amok in the store and parking lot).

    However, this bill is making the rest of our country (and of course the Hispanics) boycott buying products from our state. This will definitely take a toll on our economy seeing as how much of our frequent consumers are Hispanic.

    Either way we`re screwed :)
  • Profile photo of BigWaFuu
    BigWaFuu Male 18-29
    1163 posts
    May 1, 2010 at 4:41 pm
    "they took our jobs"

    So you wanted to work 12 hours every day cleaning the mall? That was your goal? Go to school and take advantage of our mexican slaves.
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    xXKaryXx Female 13-17
    635 posts
    May 4, 2010 at 8:44 am
    if my grandpa hadn`t hidden in that truck that delivered oranges the rich guys over here wouldn`t have had a million dollar house to live in

    D:<
  • Profile photo of chimmeychang
    chimmeychang Male 30-39
    685 posts
    June 1, 2010 at 8:46 am
    you know, we can figure out how to harass illegals more efficiently, but the bottom line is this, it costs money to deal with them. deportation isn`t free, court appointed lawyers aren`t free, detaining them isn`t free...They will be here no matter what you do, as long as they can make money. Why not just issue temporary work visas, and give them a high tax rate with no chance of getting citizenship. It seems we are more quick to want to punish people instead of working out an arrangement that benefits all parties.
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