Obama Rallies for Final Health Care Votes

Submitted by: lushuz 7 years ago in

With the health care vote scheduled for this weekend, Obama looks for votes. Thoughts, I-A-B? Are we for or against?
There are 251 comments:
Male 351
@sporks_RULE_: You sound like Nancy Pelosi
"We need to pass the bill so we can find out what`s in it"

@goaliejerry: Your failing to look at the constitutionality of government health care. (Or lack there of) Medicaid itself is unconstitutional. It should be gotten rid of. It is not the job of the government to be a nanny when somebody gets hurt. Yes, It would be good for the poor to be able to have health care, but if ANYTHING AT ALL it should be from the PRIVATE SECTOR.
@fiizok: For some reason you are judging an entire movement based off of a few individuals solely because you disagree with them. I also think America has become far too politically correct. If you all of a sudden think exhibiting the right to freedom of speech is unamerican, well that is just odd. If someone wants to be racist, I will not condone it, but I will defend them over their right to use freedom of speech.
Similarly, Nazi`s hold marches in some cities, and are allowed to do s
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Male 351
@sporks_RULE_: You sound like Nancy Pelosi
"We need to pass the bill so we can find out what`s in it"

@goaliejerry: Your failing to look at the constitutionality of government health care. (Or lack there of) Medicaid itself is unconstitutional. It should be gotten rid of. It is not the job of the government to be a nanny when somebody gets hurt. Yes, It would be good for the poor to be able to have health care, but if ANYTHING AT ALL it should be from the PRIVATE SECTOR.
@fiizok: For some reason you are judging an entire movement based off of a few individuals solely because you disagree with them. I also think America has become far too politically correct. If you all of a sudden think exhibiting the right to freedom of speech is unamerican, well that is just odd. If someone wants to be racist, I will not condone it, but I will defend them over their right to use freedom of speech.
Similarly, Nazi`s hold marches in some cities, and are allowed to do s
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Male 893
Male 351
@sporks_RULE_: You sound like Nancy Pelosi
"We need to pass the bill so we can find out what`s in it"

@goaliejerry: Your failing to look at the constitutionality of government health care. (Or lack there of) Medicaid itself is unconstitutional. It should be gotten rid of. It is not the job of the government to be a nanny when somebody gets hurt. Yes, It would be good for the poor to be able to have health care, but if ANYTHING AT ALL it should be from the PRIVATE SECTOR.
@fiizok: For some reason you are judging an entire movement based off of a few individuals solely because you disagree with them. I also think America has become far too politically correct. If you all of a sudden think exhibiting the right to freedom of speech is unamerican, well that is just odd. If someone wants to be racist, I will not condone it, but I will defend them over their right to use freedom of speech.
Similarly, Nazi`s hold marches in some cities, and are allowed to do s
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Male 893
"Wrong, all regulation is pro-big government."

It depends on who`s enforcing the regulations. Which in practically all cases it`s the government. So it`s pro(whoever enforcing the regulation) and anti(whoever gets the regulation).
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Male 893
PRO-INSURANCE REGULATIONS?

Insurance is something that you use in a time of need.
Regulation are restrictions on what you can do or get.

So red states will pass a pro-(do what you want) (can`t do what you want) bill????

goaliejerry you`re a dumbass.
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Male 351
@AnarchistGod: Wrong, all regulation is pro-big government. :P
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Male 893
There is no such thing as a pro-something regulation.
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Male 893
"Want to know why most corporate HQs are in Deleware? BECAUSE DELEWARE HAS THE LEAST RESTRICTIVE CORPORATE LAWS. "

So what! They can STILL trade between state borders in other markets! Get rid of the barriers and you won`t have such high concentration in one area and that WILL lower prices for everyone.

"The fact is Medicare IS constitutional"

NO IT`S NOT! You do NOT have a right to healthcare, education, or even food because you do NOT have a right to someone else`s labor! Look

"BECAUSE RED-STATES WILL PASS PRO-INSURANCE REGULATIONS, AND ALL INSURANCE COMPANIES WILL MOVE TO THOSE STATES."

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PRO-INSURANCE REGULATION! NO MATTER HOW YOU LOOK, OR WHAT YOU CALL IT! BY DEFINITION IT CAN`T EXIST! IT`S AN OUTRIGHT CONTRADICTION! THIS JUST SHOWS HOW MUCH OF A MORON YOU ARE!
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Male 351
@goaliejerry: Just because the supreme court rules it constitutional, does not mean it necessarily is. They are as corrupt as every other branch of government, they just last longer. Madison would be pissed. John marshall also said in regard to marbury v. madison that if the constitution is not upheld it is a pathetic attempt to control the government. Sonia Sotomayor is far from a constructionist.

The problem with the socialist argument is that because it cannot win on logic, it is forced to pull the guilt trip. As you are demonstrating.

If there was less regulation maybe the United States would have something to sell to the world, but we do not, instead because of all the regulation no one wants to waste money doing business here. (At least producing)
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Male 4,014
"you can`t pay a policy outside of your state. This is a barrier to entry"

Want to know why most corporate HQs are in Deleware? BECAUSE DELEWARE HAS THE LEAST RESTRICTIVE CORPORATE LAWS.

Want to know why many credit card companies are based in South Dakota? S.D. HAS VERY LOOSE CREDIT CARD REGULATIONS.

Want to know why Democrats oppose allowing insurance companies to sell insurance across state lines? BECAUSE RED-STATES WILL PASS PRO-INSURANCE REGULATIONS, AND ALL INSURANCE COMPANIES WILL MOVE TO THOSE STATES.
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Male 4,014
* I meant "Medicaid" in my post of 1:20:27
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Male 4,014
Here is a fact - under this bill, once fully in force, no American mother will ever have to skip a doctor appointment for their child due to being unable to afford it. Every child in America will have fully funded post-natal medical case. It is a fact that, today, some mothers don`t take sick children to the doctor because they cannot afford it. THAT WILL NOT HAPPEN ANYMORE.

As a postscript, let me say that, damn, the Republicans are a formidable, admirable, and eternal foe. Continue keeping us honest, because power corrupts.

P.S. STUPAK BLOCK SAYS "YES"
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Male 4,014
"Your failing to look at the constitutionality of government health care. . . . Medicaid itself is unconstitutional."

I mean, there is an entire line of Supreme Court cases dealing with Tax Protesters who failed to pay federal taxes based on the argument that the federal government lacked the power to tax income. Guess how those cases turned out?
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Male 4,014
Re: Tea Partiers calling Democratic representatives "fa**ot" and "ni**er." Despicable, although in some way I sympathize with protesters who do not share those views. The bigots are likely a minority, but the fact is they show up at Tea Party rallies.

However, a Politico reporter personally heard a protester call Rep. Frank a "fa**ot." A protester spit on a congressperson.

On the other hand, no one can say that the Tea Party wasn`t able to express its point of view. It lost this round.
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Male 4,014
"Your failing to look at the constitutionality of government health care. . . . Medicaid itself is unconstitutional."

Look, I believe I understand and at least respect your libertarian point of view. The fact is Medicare IS constitutional, according to the U.S. Supreme Court, which has ruled on provisions repeatedly and upheld its constitutionality. "It is emphatically the province and duty of the Judicial Department [the courts] to say what the law is." Marbury v. Madison.

I say that you have to accept your side lost. Think about what the GOP would have to say to undo this bill. Here is the argument this fall.

Republican - I want to repeal this bill.

Democrat - If that happens, children currently dying of cancer can suddenly have their insurance canceled, just like they could have before we passed the bill.

Thats it. This bill immediately makes it illegal to refuse coverage to a child on pre-existing conditions.
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Male 893
@TNoussis
The problem is not that it is privatized. The problem is that it`s corporatized. For example, you can`t pay a policy outside of your state. This is a barrier to entry. Barriers to entry are a form of corporatism, not capitalism.

And btw, I`m not right wing and I`m not left wing. Here is the Nolan Chart.



10 Question Nolan Chart Quiz.
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Male 351
@fiizok: In your OP you never said anything about spitting. SEIU and other left wing organizations have done much worse such as beating a man up for handing out "Don`t tread on me" flags at a health care town hall.
@TNoussis: If you have a problem with corruption (which I am glad you do) you cannot possibly think government provided care will be any more free of it. Hell my family has private medical insurance, our health insurance spends well over what we pay, they are losing money on us, however we have not been dropped. I`m sure that dropping their policy holders when sick is illegal, and thus will be sued and will get in trouble. I am confused about why you put "affordable" in there, you see in the free market system, the insurance companies can charge whatever they want. This is where competition comes in. Socialism has no value, it is a complete failure of an economic system that may work in theory, but never has in practice, just like communism.
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Male 63
Anarchist god, Znaught, you are probably right about private insurance begin a more efficient system, but that doesn`t mean its working. We`ve all doubtlessly heard the stories about crooked practices that insurance companies have of revoking policies and refusing to give out insurance. So you CAN`T necessarily say right now that when you pay for insurance it`s going to pay for your medical expenses when you need them. Just because its privatized doesn`t make it work. Not when insurance companies are dropping their sick policy holders. I`m also not going to stand here defending socialism all day, cause you`re clearly too far right for me to ever convince you of its value. But I`m still going to say that something has to be fixed. It doesn`t have to mean socialized medicine, but it does mean the insurance companies have to start doing what they are supposed to do, and that`s provide affordable insurance that doesn`t go away when you need it.
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Male 12,138
[quote]"spitting is not a protected form of free speech."

Tell that to my dad and the thousands of other Vietnam war vets. No one arrested the people spitting on them when they came back. [/quote]
Crakr, I have the utmost of respect for the military. My grandfather, who was a genuinely dear friend of mine and more than just another relation, was in the British Royal Navy during WWII. Gunner on the Battleship Revenge, as it happens.

It disgusts me to the core when people literally spit on military personnel over their beliefs, whatever they may be. Misguided anger, I say. If you want to hate, hate the politicians that put those individuals in danger. Don`t hate the individuals in the miltary who are just trying to do their best.

I`m as liberalist left-wing hippie as they come, and on this Crakr, we can definitely agree. Complete and full respect to your dad and people like him. Again, meant sincerely.
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Male 17,511
"spitting is not a protected form of free speech."

Tell that to my dad and the thousands of other Vietnam war vets. No one arrested the people spitting on them when they came back.
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Male 17,511
fiizok: Like I said, I can dig up some old anti-war protesters saying much much worse and holding signs that are much more derogatory.

I`ve read statements on counter tea party blogs encouraging posers to enter the crowds and yell slurs, inflammatory slogans, and more.
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Male 591
ZNaught, spitting is not a protected form of free speech. It is assault. That`s why the spitter was arrested.
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Male 591
CrakrJak, these are not abberations. From what I have read and observed first hand, these actions are emblematic of the Tea Party as a whole. And I have no reason to believe that these people were planted to make the party look bad. If you can show me some evidence that they were in fact planted, I would like to see it.
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Male 351
@sporks_RULE_: You sound like Nancy Pelosi
"We need to pass the bill so we can find out what`s in it"

@goaliejerry: Your failing to look at the constitutionality of government health care. (Or lack there of) Medicaid itself is unconstitutional. It should be gotten rid of. It is not the job of the government to be a nanny when somebody gets hurt. Yes, It would be good for the poor to be able to have health care, but if ANYTHING AT ALL it should be from the PRIVATE SECTOR.
@fiizok: For some reason you are judging an entire movement based off of a few individuals solely because you disagree with them. I also think America has become far too politically correct. If you all of a sudden think exhibiting the right to freedom of speech is unamerican, well that is just odd. If someone wants to be racist, I will not condone it, but I will defend them over their right to use freedom of speech.
Similarly, Nazi`s hold marches in some cities, and are allowed to do s
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Male 17,511
fiizok: You are highly mistaken if you believe the entirety of the tea party protesters are summed up with the action/words of a few. It`s at the very least `cherry picking` and at the worst it could be planted shills trying to make the tea party protesters look bad.
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Male 591
The sources reporting these incidents consist of several news organizations, the D.C. police department, and the offices of representatives Barney Frank and John Lewis. In my book those are highly credible sources.

I`m glad that you don`t approve of their use. I think they are highly counter-productive, no matter what side of the issue you happen to be on.
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Male 17,511
"Do you think the actions I cited are acceptable?"

I have no idea if those are even genuine, Wouldn`t be hard to add shills into a crowd and fake it. The source recording it is obviously biased, and not a reliable source.

As for the words themselves, I don`t use them and don`t approve of their use.
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Male 591
CrakrJak, why won`t you answer my question? Do you think spitting on people and racial epithets and homophobic slurs are acceptable?
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Male 17,511
"Do you think those actions are acceptable?"

The actions house speaker Pelosi and Senate leader Reid are far more egregious, They are making their own rules up as they go to ram this down the public`s throats.

Btw, This bill won`t effect their health care one bit, They`ve excluded themselves and Obama from it.

Which is expressly forbidden in the 28th Amendment
Congress shall make no law that applies to the citizens of the United States that does not apply equally to the Senators a
nd/or Representatives, and Congress shall make no law that applies to the Senators and/or Representatives that does not apply equally to the citizens of the United States.
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Male 25
They need to get rid of this so call "health Care" and start over before it is too late.
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Male 591
CrakrJak, can you answer my question please? Do you think the actions I cited are acceptable?
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Male 17,511
fiizok: Way worse was said about GW Bush, And if you can`t remember that far back I can give examples.
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Male 591
Pelosi obviously wasn`t speaking about racial epithets, homophobic slurs, and spitting on opponents. Do you think those actions are acceptable?
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Male 893
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Male 17,511
"This behavior is disturbing and disgusting and profoundly un-American."

Nancy Pelosi, January 17, 2006: "So I thank all of you who have spoken out for your courage, your point of view. All of it. Your advocacy is very American and very important." "I love disruptors"
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Male 591
CrakrJak: I see you are still making false statements that have no basis in fact.
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Male 17,511
fiizok: I see you are still spouting misinformation.
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Male 591
Meanwhile, the "Tea Party" people are becoming totally unhinged over this legislation, largely because of the lies and fear-mongering of Fox News and other right wing media outlets. These people are now threatening violence!

http://tinyurl.com/yahp2nt

Meanwhile, today a Tea Party protester reportedly called Congressman Barney Frank a "f****t," while another reportedly called Congressman John Lewis the N-word. This behavior is disturbing and disgusting and profoundly un-American.

Strike another one against the so called Tea Party.
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Male 893
@goaliejerry
Using subsidies doesn`t work! It takes out the incentive to produce more if you just take from the rich. Allowing more competition is what works and what should be done. No one is defending the current system. Stop stealing other people`s money by forcing them to buy something. If someone is of diminished means and can`t afford something that the people around this person thinks this person needs then that is a welfare issue. Don`t mess with the structure of production!
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Male 591
"That was a hack job, Done by hacks. All the good responses were left on the cutting room floor, I`m sure."

Can you prove it? Sounds like complete conjecture on your part.

"Tea party members are far more knowledgeable about this legislation than Obama voters were about the `08 election."

Now there`s a profound overstatement which is totally unsupported by any facts!
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Male 4,014
You all ignore the current reality of the completely uninsured person spending $15,000 at the hospital with no one paying. Sure, you go live in the woods and be self-sufficient, meanwhile your doctor loses $15,000 a month having to treat the indigent, and occasionally having to sue patients for assets.

That large, continuous, predictable loss is absorbed into the economy by doctors and hospitals charging higher prices to insurance companies. WE ALREADY PAY FOR HEALTHCARE FOR POOR PEOPLE. People actually declare bankruptcy EVERY DAY based on medical expenses. Thats a little crazy.

Now, everyone has to buy it, and if they are so dirt poor that they can`t, we`ll subsidize it, LIKE WE ALREADY KIND OF DO WITH MEDICAID. Now, we`ll just require them to buy a PRIVATE insurance policy instead of submitting a claim to GOV`T RUN MEDICAID.

I argue you are all missing the connection between the indigent getting care anyways and my higher insurance payment
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Female 102
From what it appears, the current health care system is not working out. We don`t know if the new one will work or not until we try it. Obama`s change can`t happen if people in DC can`t get their acts together (both sides mind you) and work together like government should. That`s the real issue here.
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Female 1,283
I`m still not paying for this poo.
Not now, not ever.
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Male 351
@TNoussis: It is due to socialization. The US would be far better off if programs such as social security and welfare did not exist. Our debt has skyrocketed since the progressive movement in the early 1900`s and all of the social programs that came with it.

Government does need taxes to run and exist, however I don`t believe that I should be forced to provide health care for others. Don`t get me wrong, I am very charitable, however I should not be forced to volunteer to help the poor.

As for military spending, we don`t even spend as much on defense as we do on social security, but when Mandatory programs are added it ends up being 1.7 Trillion (Without interest on debt). Clearly we would be better off NOT spending 2/3s of our budget on unconstitutional programs.
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Male 893
"taxes don`t f*cking mean the government stealing from you. "

Yes it does! If I take a dollar from you and win the lottery then give you the prize money I still stole that dollar.

If you get sick insurance companies will pay for the expenses. Assuming you have insurance. Insurance price will drop if you simply allow competition between states, not to mention all the other barriers. That way almost everyone can have access to healthcare without destroying the private sector.
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Male 63
Z naught, UK and France have had their socialized systems in place for decades! You cannot blame their national debt on their health care systems. That`s ridiculous. The debt is due to poor economic management. Just like much of Americas debt.
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Male 63
Anarchist god you still haven`t answered my question about how you would pay if you got really sick. I also don`t understand why people keep throwing the word "free" around. It doesn`t matter where you go in the world, you`re never going to find free health care. You can pay for it out of your own wallet, or you can pay for it through taxes alongside the rest of your countrymen. And yes the Canadian health care system has its faults. But you should also consider other socialized systems. I`m pretty sure Britain`s works quite well, it offers more incentives to its doctors and there is also still the option for private care. Socialism necessitates taxes, but taxes don`t f*cking mean the government stealing from you. They don`t throw your money on a huge pile and swim in it like scrooge McDuck. I do know in the case of the states, they spend an awful lot of it on war. Maybe a better solution to health care in the states is your government spend ing your existing taxes more wisel
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Male 351
@hi2pi:
The thing is, when it comes to rating health care, having a socialized system gives points, hence we cannot beat any socialized system whether we are better or not.

So what? If someone does not buy insurance and they get hurt, it is only their fault. If they on the other hand put more of a focus on insurance and strived to get it, then they would not be going bankrupt. Hell bankruptcy in itself is arguably wrong.

Rich people? So 57% of Americans you define as rich? Even so, why should the rich people suffer? Have they some how done something wrong by being successful? The top 1% already pays about half of all taxes.

The thing is, socialized... anything is horrible. Every single country that is doing what we are doing is falling into extreme debt, not that we aren`t in poo loads of debt as it is. (UK, Greece, France)
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Male 736
states pays more per person for health care than most (including canada)
states has one of the worst health record of any industrialized nation
lack of decent insurance is the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the states
rich people are fighting hard to kill this bill
doesn`t this add up to something?
and i had to laugh at posters arguing that the republicans were good for the economy...and cry.
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Male 40,728
[quote]We`ve cut taxes for the very rich almost 10 years ago... and the economy STILL TANKED and production STILL DROPPED OFF? -goaliejerry[/quote]
(From 2 posts)
Lets examine the last 10 of the USA economy shall we goalie? With little things called FACTS:
-for 6 years under Bush the economy BOOMED with low inflation! Jobs grew every month for 4 YEARS in a row.
- in 2006 the Dems took over both houses.
- 2007 housing bubble bursts, a law from the Clinton administration causes havok with Freddy & Fanny
- the Dems passed the "Spendulus" bill, (which Bush signed into law) which gives billions to Banks! For free!
NOW the Dems want to spend countless trillions on a bill that no-one has even read, and which +57% of Americans oppose.
To "pay for it" the govt will either borrow more money (debt) or impose NEW taxes.
It will still leave 20 million Americans without coverage btw.
Facts, eh?
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Male 351
@5Cats: Y`all? No. Only those who actually benefit/or simply want more government control.

John will always support Bill if Bill steals and gives to John
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Male 40,728
[quote]LOL --- I just LOVE how all these posters keep claiming it`s FREE healthcare! - cuthere2[/quote]
Right ON! We in Canada pay over 50% of our income to taxes. Personal, sales, gasoline & sin taxes mostly burden THE POOREST amoung us.
So your hospital visits (after they make you pay $200 for the ambulance ride) is far from "free" since you`ve already paid taxes for it.
Not to say "universal healthcare" isn`t without benifits, it does have many. I just think we should be able to CHOOSE how to spend our own money, not some beurocrat speding it "for us".

"In 2008, our Canadian Health Care system cost about $170 BILLION dollars CAD or about $5,200 per person" - Smileyguy1
Ain`t that the truth!
AND the government plan (in the USA) won`t come in for 4 years, taxes start on day one!
Y`all wanted your wealth redistributed by Mr Obama, he`s going to deliver on that!
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Male 893
"And its simply a fallacious argument that higher taxes stop people from wanting to make more money. Nobody, EVER - has been like - damn, I would really like to make $500,000, but ooooo those taxes. I think I`ll just make $60,000 instead."

You`re wrong again! They are less likely to take risks in the stock market if they know they will just be taxed higher.
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Male 893
Well just so you know I`m an atheist.
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Male 9
Well, then they`ll just have to throw my ass in jail, won`t they?

Sorry to say, but Obama is now officially drat retarded.

Not ONLY has he drated over the people that can`t afford health insurance, but he`s now drated over the budget by unknowingly reserving every spot in the prison system.
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Male 351
@AnarchistGod: Different thread, unless I have you confused with someone else.

I am waiting to get into the action here.
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Male 893
@CrakrJak

Could not have said it better myself!
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Male 17,511
Does anyone remember when Obama visited Caterpillar tractor touting the stimulus plan would save jobs there ?

Health Care bill Will Cost Caterpillar $100 Million

What do you think will happen to those jobs now ?
They will be forced to make cutbacks, People will loose their jobs over this heath care bill, The very same people Obama said would be able to keep their jobs.
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Male 893
@ZNaught

What exactly did I say about religion?
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Male 17,511
goaliejerry: "Republicans like to give massive tax cuts to rich people, then convince poor people that that somehow helps them too"

:knock:knock:knock: Anybody home ?

The rich people in this country create the jobs.
Did you some how miss this in economics class ?
Rich people create jobs, In the companies they own, To expand their businesses and get richer.
No society on earth has ever taxed itself into prosperity.
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Male 351
AnarchistGod: I may not agree with you on religion, but I do on economics (thus far)
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Male 893
They get taxes cuts because they give people jobs! By taxing them many poor people will end up losing their jobs or never getting hired. Not to mention the semi-rich who don`t invest and hire people because of the barriers to entry. We need to stop taxing the rich so they can hire more people and get rid of the barriers to entry to allow full competition.
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Male 4,014
"Stop taxing the rich or they will produce less because your de-incentivizing them."

Oh, you mean like RIGHT NOW, when rich people are still the beneficiaries of massive tax cuts, and the economy STILL TANKED and production STILL DROPPED OFF? Yeah, that worked out real well for the US.

And its simply a fallacious argument that higher taxes stop people from wanting to make more money. Nobody, EVER - has been like - damn, I would really like to make $500,000, but ooooo those taxes. I think I`ll just make $60,000 instead.
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Male 4,014
cuthere2 - yes, we get it. You are cold, selfish, unsympathetic and heartless. Congratulations. Theres a tea party protest going on somewhere, I think you`re late for it.
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Male 893
"The tax is an incentive to buy health insurance. If you don`t make enough income to have to file taxes, it doesn`t apply. Also, the ban of refusing to insure people with preexisting conditions begin immediately."

That`s stupid and makes no sense. You don`t buy house insurance after your house burned down. Stop taxing the rich or they will produce less because your de-incentivizing them. What we need to do is get rid of the barriers to entry.
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Male 4,014
My last point is this. Look, I know Dems and Repubs differ in their approach to taxes. Republicans like to give massive tax cuts to rich people, then convince poor people that that somehow helps them too. (It doesn`t). We`ve cut taxes for the very rich almost 10 years ago, and look where we are now?

Now, we`re going to try a different philosophy for awhile, see how that goes.
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Male 322
Average POOR person in Ameica expected US to pay for their healthcare:

- Purchase 10 or more lottery tickets per month

- 74 - 77% of all "destitute" level poor SMOKE heavily - Spending nearly $100 per month on cigarettes

- Receives food stamps or welfare to cover food costs

- Owns a vehicle

- Has cable television

- Has a cell phone

- Has more than 1 television in his/her home

Let me get this straight. They can scrounge up the money to smoke like a chimney, and DESTROY their own health, and don`t give a rats a$$ about the health of those around them they`re affecting - But expect me to pay money out of my wallet to to cover them when they`re destroying their own health with cigarettes? 3/4 of all poor. They also throw away money on lottery tickets, cable, internet connection - But when it comes to health, I`m supposed to be responsible? The irony will likely be lost on the pro-reform supporters.
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Male 4,014
The plan will also offer a tax credit for family buyers of healthcare who make less than $88,000.

THUS, FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS, YOU WILL IN FACT PAY LESS IN TAXES. Thats a FACT.
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Male 322
Ooops - Previous post was to Davy comment --

MadDog: "@ cuthere2

Wow...just wow! You fail totally at being a human dont you?

Guess what! You total fail in your argument aswell. Here on good ol UK we have Human rights.

Article 2 on that list is: Right to life!

Guess what...if yer poor, we feed you! "


I see you failed to address what I said. What does any of this have to do with starving children dying? Huh? Enlighten me! Why aren`t YOU taking money and time out to dedicate towards helping these starving children? They`re outside your borders, so you don`t care?

I guess you don`t get the gist of the subtle hint here? I`m using the same logic being used by the pro-healthcare reform posters.
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Male 4,014
Nobody said its free healthcare (who knows what they are talking about).

Unlike Republicans - who passed a $1 trillion prescription drug plan with ZERO mechanisms to raise the revenue, the Democrats ACTUALLY PAY FOR LEGISLATION THEY PASS.

The Plan also ELIMINATES LIFETIME CAPS - so while your in the hospital bed, and your insurance hits its cap, you suddenly don`t have to mortgage your home to pay for the rest of the procedure.

AMERICANS WILL NO LONGER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT GETTING SICK AND GOING BROKE.

MANY OF US WHO MAKE A LOT OF MONEY SUPPORT THIS. Why?

MORALITY. Its not right for poor people to die or go bankrupt because they got sick. I`ll pay a tax to ensure poor children get to see a doctor.

Republicans would say - F*CK`EM. (The subtext is that poor people are undeserving and lazy, ignoring social reasons people end up poor).
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Male 17,511
fiizok: That was a hack job, Done by hacks. All the good responses were left on the cutting room floor, I`m sure. Tea party members are far more knowledgeable about this legislation than Obama voters were about the `08 election.

How Obama Got Elected
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Male 322


MADDOG: "Cuth, this is about a country looking after it`s own citizens. What goes on outside those borders is entirely another matter. Please understand that if American children were dying of starvation, the government would step in to fix that. It`s what decent, honest, humane governments do. The indecent, dishonest, inhumane ones let their misfortunate citizens die (or live, but be bankrupt) without giving a f*ck about them as individuals."

Just as I expected - It`s only ok to bring up morality, and appeal to HUMAN rights, when it applies to those living within the same imaginary borderlines on a map as you... Otherwise, screw em eh? Good show! Shows what a load of BS your arguments are to begin with... This isn`t about HUMAN rights, this is about getting something for free.

Let`s put them on a scale: Those who don`t have healthcare (But still get treated) - Or 15 million children who die from their bodies eating them alive... To you it`s all ab
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Male 4,014
The tax is an incentive to buy health insurance. If you don`t make enough income to have to file taxes, it doesn`t apply. Also, the ban of refusing to insure people with preexisting conditions begin immediately.
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Male 4,014
"Have any of you who support this bill even read a synopsis for it? I don`t mean heard what Pelosi, or Barry has had to say about it. I mean actually read the synopsis.

Did any of you see that this bill, if passed, won`t go into effect for 8 years from now, but we will all start to be taxed for it (on our income, approx. 3%) IMMEDIATELY!

Did any of you see that this bill, if passed, will REQUIRE insurance companies to accept ALL APPLICANTS, even if they call from a hospital bed and want to be covered for whatever reason they are in the hospital. It`s called INSURANCE, not PAY FOR MY BAD HEALTH!

Did any of you see that this bill, if passed, will make people pay a fine, yearly, of $750 if they do not purchase insurance. THAT`S NOT FREE! THAT`S CALLED PAY OR PAY!

We already have free healthcare for those who need it. I wish people (esp. members of congress) would READ THE BILL!"

Yes, I knew that. The tax is on Rich People.
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Male 591
Over at YouTube there`s an entertaining look at people protesting health care reform:

http://tinyurl.com/yjdxn8b
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Male 10,338
ooppoo. Deleting and bumping your post is baaaaad. lol
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Male 10,338
Smileyguy:

We, as Americans, already pay upwards of 11% of income tax to government health care.

Like I said, we already have it, so why do we need it?
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Male 124
auburnjunky: Of course the Health care system is going ot be funded by taxpayer dollars.

In 2008, our Canadian Health Care system cost about $170 BILLION dollars CAD or about $5,200 per person.

So yes, nothing`s free.
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Male 237
One last thing:

Everyone is talking about the police and being socialized and everything. Well, how many people *like* the police. Every time they do something then usually what I hear are complaints about how they were wrong or the police were just out to get them.
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Male 237
"Human rights as per the charter..what a great thing! America, of course dosnt want to know about Human rights. Shame...you could all benefit."

Hmm..I seem to remember a little thing called the Bill of Rights...

In the United States if you were to get in a car wreck then you would be picked up by an ambulance and stabilized as necessary (without being asked how you will pay), taken to the ER and evaluated and treated (without being asked how you will pay), and once you are stable and on the right path to being whole, you sit down with a financial person to figure out a way to pay. As in once you are "out of the woods" then, with most hospitals, they will work out a payment structure just like a car payment or a house payment.

From what I`ve gathered, the last thing a hospital wants to do is have a lien on your house or take it all together (what the hell is a hospital going to do with a house?)

This is about freedom. What the gov
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Male 591
Such as these: it would immediately prohibit insurers from nullifying or rescinding a patient`s policy when they file a claim for benefits. It would immediately offer tax credits to small businesses to make employee coverage more affordable. It would immediately require health plans to allow young people through age 26 to remain in their parents` insurance policy, at the parents` choice.
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Male 893
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Male 10,338
I know one of the provisions that will go into effect right away. a 3% tax hike for all Americans, regardless of income.
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Male 10,338
Such as fiizok?
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Male 591
"Did any of you see that this bill, if passed, won`t go into effect for 8 years from now..."

Sorry but that`s not correct. There are dozens of provisions that would take effect immediately, as well as dozens more that would take effect six months to a year from now.

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Male 10,338
Bravo Anarchist.

Also, to add. America is not a Democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic.

Upon signing the constitution, a woman asked Ben Franklin as he walked out of the room;

"What kind or government have you given us sir?"

He replied, "A republic madam, if you can keep it."
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Male 893
@Grimnir & The_Maddog
You`re both stupid!
We DON`T have a purely capitalistic system in America. We have a socialism/corporatism clusterf*ck. That`s what f*cked up this country. Not capitalism. If you think America has a capitalist system then try starting your own business and see if you don`t come across any barriers to entry. Then you can try North Korea, Cuba, and then Russia.
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Male 10,338
Have any of you who support this bill even read a synopsis for it? I don`t mean heard what Pelosi, or Barry has had to say about it. I mean actually read the synopsis.

Did any of you see that this bill, if passed, won`t go into effect for 8 years from now, but we will all start to be taxed for it (on our income, approx. 3%) IMMEDIATELY!

Did any of you see that this bill, if passed, will REQUIRE insurance companies to accept ALL APPLICANTS, even if they call from a hospital bed and want to be covered for whatever reason they are in the hospital. It`s called INSURANCE, not PAY FOR MY BAD HEALTH!

Did any of you see that this bill, if passed, will make people pay a fine, yearly, of $750 if they do not purchase insurance. THAT`S NOT FREE! THAT`S CALLED PAY OR PAY!

We already have free healthcare for those who need it. I wish people (esp. members of congress) would READ THE BILL!
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Male 12,138
[quote]Is it strange that those IAB users with over 1k posts are supporting health care upheaval? IS it because they have so much time on their hands? Regardless of an individual`s hardships, it is the responsibility of every man/woman to strive for personal success. (Get off of your computer, and go to work. Work hard, and receive health insurance.)A new WELLFARE program will not solve our troubles. Pick up a book, read it. Graduate from college, and enter the real world. Succeed at your career, and produce offspring. [/quote]

I have a profession (geoscience, I`m Director of the Oil & Gas division), two degrees (one of which PhD), read a few books (and authored two), and have a 3-year old daughter. I also happen to be in the highest tax bracket and a proud supporter of my tax dollars going toward socialised healthcare, to help my fellow countrymen who get sick, but who are less fortunate than me.

What`s your next point, caller?
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Male 10,338
News flash. We here in America already have free health care for those people who cannot afford private insurance. THIS BILL IS NOTHING MORE THAN A POWER GRAB! I will repeat.

AMERICA ALREADY HAS FREE HEALTHCARE! WE DO NOT NEED THIS BILL!
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Male 3,369
@ cuthere2

Wow...just wow! You fail totally at being a human dont you?

Guess what! You total fail in your argument aswell. Here on good ol UK we have Human rights.

Article 2 on that list is: Right to life!

Guess what...if yer poor, we feed you!

Human rights as per the charter..what a great thing! America, of course dosnt want to know about Human rights. Shame...you could all benefit.


So..yes..my taxes help feed the poor. I cant feed the world and nor can my country....but I can make sure the poor in my own country are looked after. The least America SHOULD do is look after its own.

Whats next? Going to bring up how people will abuse the system? Yeah..happens in any system.

America really is going to tear itself appart isnt it?

The fear of socialism is crippling some of you. I guess they can pry those few tax dollars that go to helping the masses from your cold dead hand huh?

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Male 12,138
[quote]Well, how about the fact that 15 million children die each year from starvation. Shouldn`t FOOD be a right by your logic? Tell me, why aren`t you lobbying for a new tax on your own income to save those children? [/quote]
Cuth, this is about a country looking after it`s own citizens. What goes on outside those borders is entirely another matter. Please understand that if American children were dying of starvation, the government would step in to fix that. It`s what decent, honest, humane governments do. The indecent, dishonest, inhumane ones let their misfortunate citizens die (or live, but be bankrupt) without giving a f*ck about them as individuals.

Come on America, catch up with the rest of the world and stop being so stubborn.
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Male 2,737
I`m for universal healthcare. I don`t care who has to pay for it. It works all over the planet EXCEPT the US? Bullpoo.
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Male 322
I find it pathetic when I read these arguments about how healthcare is a RIGHT, and how TERRIBLE immoral people must be to be against it.

Well, how about the fact that 15 million children die each year from starvation. Shouldn`t FOOD be a right by your logic? Tell me, why aren`t you lobbying for a new tax on your own income to save those children?

EVERY dollar you spen on an item you don`t NEED to live, is you voting that your own personal comfort is more important than saving those children. Interesting. How could you be so cruel? LOL --- Hey, just using your own line of reasoning to show that it`s not quite so black and white is it? Hey, why don`y you go give 70% of every one of your paychecks to save those children? You don`t need an internet connection to live, nor a cell phone, nor a car. They`re luxuries, and apparently you feel your luxuries are more important than the lives of children.

Not dying a horrible death from starvation should be a right y
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Male 322
LOL --- I just LOVE how all these posters keep claiming it`s FREE healthcare! How stupid can you get? Is it REALLY free? Guess you`re all the bottom 20% income wise, because for those of us who make money, we`re the ones having to pay for it. But I guess as long as the money isn`t coming out of YOUR pockets, you`re all for it.

Love the entitlement mentality. That`s what makes a country great doesn`t it? A bunch of moochers.
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Male 2,159
The NHS is good and bad. Yes, it`s almost constantly slated for getting bad reviews or being too slow, but the fact of the matter is that it`s there and it`s free. When I broke my arm I would bet I saved £100`s by being promptly whisked to an NHS hospital.

Private healthcare can be better - at least for stuff like braces/dentistry, lifestyle surgeries etc. - but MY GOD you pay for it (£2500 for my jaw brace/traintracks/retainer). In some instances, however, paying for private can pay off; I have recently been visiting the Mental Health section of the nearest NHS hospital, and to see an ASD specialist is to wait months and months for even an introductory appointment. I don`t have that kind of time to muck about with. By seeing a private psychotherapist, things are moving much faster.

So, the NHS is very slow, but if you can`t afford private, you`re bloody well thankful for it. And I think there are many people in America too who would welcome free health.
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Male 3,369
Oh and just to put it in perspective, last year I was hospitalised. My life was saved by the "so called" evil social healthcare system you all seem to want to rip on.I`m still here, happy, healthy and alive because of that system. I still own my own home and I dont have huge medical bills to pay.

Had I been an american citizen (without insurance), considering the amount of time I was there, I dont doubt for 1 second I`d be bankrupt and homeless right now.

Just because a few greedy selfish morons begrudge paying taxes dosnt mean a social system (in this case healthcare) dosnt work.

I support social healthcare and I pay my taxes. It makes me proud to know a small percentage of my taxes is used to save lives.

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Male 106
I would like a chance for myself as well as congress to read the entire bill before signing off on it. I know they want to get it done before midterm elections however this is something that should not be rushed. It is extremely important step and I disagree with pushing such a large bill through the house/senate with these seldom used backdoor policies. However I as a humanist and a person who has seen both how the health care system works in Canada along with the pile of medical bills my grandmother has from my grandfather. I want and know there needs to be a change in the American system. So, where does all that leave me on this vote, well I am against it until I personally am able to have the document and read through it page by page.
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Male 3,369
@ 5Cats

The only idiot I see here is you! I "also" live in a country with socialised healthcare and guess what..I could talk crap like you but the facts are thus.

If I get hit by a car I can expect to be patched up free of charge with no risk of losing my home because thats how the system works. If I want private healthcare, that option is also there but at least I dont have to worry about the vultures circling me to see how much cash they can take! I`ve used the social system and I`ve used the private system. The private system (at least for me) was no better than what the social healthcare system offered. The only time I really see a benifit from private healthcare is corrective laser eye surgery or cosmetic surgery (and i`m talking private nose jobs not burn vitims).

I`ll stick with paying my taxes and being part of a system that whilst not perfect is certainly better than what the yanks have going on.

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Male 124
5Cats-

You must mean ADDITIONAL medical insurance, such as drug coverage, dentistry, orthotics, prosthetics, etc. Yes, that`s seperate from our Canadian Medical Health Plan. Usually obtainable through private insurance or through employee benefits.
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Male 4,745
5Cats is dead wrong. We don`t have to carry insurance in Canada. It`s all free. If I need an operation, I see my Doc, he books an appointment and I get it done. I never see a bill. I never pay a penny. No insurance needed.
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Male 4,745
I can`t believe the guy before me is threatening civil war at the idea of a civilized health care system!

Take of of your sick and poor. Otherwise you are no better then a dictatorship.
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Male 40,728
[quote]Keep trying to push that capatalist system thats worked so well for yah![/quote]
Oh too true Maddog! What a fail capatilism has been eh? We should be more like Albania eh? Or Cuba? Bloody paradise there. /sarc off
(idiot)
All I know is we in Canada have "socialised medecine" AND we all have to carry expensive insurance AS WELL or we can die waiting for treatment and there`s no other option but to drive to the USA for care.
Hooray for Obama, destroying the USA one step at a time. Y`all voted for him!
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Male 5
Obama is so full of it, even his supporting news stations are saying the health care bill sill fail. So does that say enough, yup, his own supporters doubt him and this bill. Thank you America. I have one other thing to say, if this bill does pass for some freak act of god then my job and everyone else that works with me will be screwed. There will be civil war between the working citizens of this nation and our govt and trust me, there are many more working citizens than there are people to protect our govt.
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Male 124
My wife had a heart attack 3 years ago at the age of 32. I had lost my job the month prior. I figure that the entire week in the CCU would have cost over $100K if it wasn`t for a "Socialist Medical System."

Our Canadian Medical system is not perfect, but I have my wife back. That`s all that matters to me.
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Male 1,929
Where`s the use in having your leg amputated if you don`t have to worry about paying through the ass for it while you recover? Not having to remortgage your house takes all the fun out of being in a car crash. Why should you have to pay a few cents a month just so that your mother/son/cousin/friend doesn`t pay thousands of dollars for the privilege of losing a hand?

Society is for losers. Individualism and making-sure-that-the-Commies-don`t-win are the only things that matter! USA! USA! etc...
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Male 301
Sure, why not. Let`s put our government in charge of our healthcare. It worked so well for us in our education system, post office, welfare, medicare, medicade, social security, etc. What could possibly go wrong?!
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Male 3,369
AnarchistGod is the exact reason that Americas in the mess it is today.

Good going genius! Keep trying to push that capatalist system thats worked so well for yah!
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Male 2,436
"I don`t know..., I don`t know..., I don`t know..." Well, Barack, you BETTER know before you force this $#!+ on America. FIGURE IT OUT! A$$hole.
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Female 140
I don`t see why people are so against public healthcare, it`s worked brilliantly in my experience. I`ve had to go in for a couple of operations, and yes, I had to wait around from 12:00 `till 4:00 to actually go into the operating theatre, but that`s a hell of a lot better than paying thousands of pounds for it or, even worse, not being able to have the operation at all.

If you have a problem with public healthcare, you still have the option to pay for private if you prefer. I think the problem is many Americans are afraid of change. America, you`re just gonna have to learn to roll with it.
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Male 6
Ha, right. Thats tru. But...beacause most of the governemants are neoliberal itself! especially the us-gov! no wonder.

We need a tru, fair and srong state and not that greedy neoliberal bs! what kind of freaky illusion is that, that u think the free market are lead into a better world and that these people are interessted in ur personal health and/or success?? O_o

or didn`t u thought that....?
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Male 322
Grimnir --- HUH? What are you TALKING about!?? Our most recent recession/depression was CAUSED by government medling/greed/personal interests... Or are you going to just ignore the extortion and cover ups and conflicts of interest by Barney Frank and the Democratic party?

No such thing as a truly free market when you have personal interest groups backed by the power of the Federal Government twisting the arms of banks to give loans to those who cannot afford it (by the hundreds of thousands, and even millions) - THEN using party line voting to block regulation of the market to STOP the same loans that were creating a real estate bubble!!

But sure, blame it on the free market whilst looking the other way and ignoring the facts, that the government has been MANIPULATING the market for personal gain.

A free market cannot thrive when the very principles it`s founded on are choked by the people voted into office.

Why didn`t you mention this in your po
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Male 322
Nice how you use Britain as an example. Are you also all for these types of measures now crammed down the throats of British citizens? Socialism at work - A natural progression: (Links at bottom.

Chunky you`re from Canada right? Remind me again WHICH politician from Canada recently came to the U.S. for healthcare again? What was his reasoning again? lol

lINK: UK Requires government permission to kiss children

LINK: Parents banned from playgrounds in UK, government "Play Rangers" have authority over parents...

Wow! What shining examples of freedom and sanity! So glad you admire the UK system... Perhaps you`re hoping for similar measures in Canada soon? I mean, isn`t it a childs RIGHT to be free from predatory adults? All you`re giving up is every shred of normalacy and treating your your child as if he/she is government property! But hey, all in the name of socialism right?
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Male 6
"Everything from roads, police, to medicine would be cheaper if people stopped giving money to the extortion racket/coercive monopoly (state) because of the increase in competition."

This is an (famous) illusion. Didn`t the past showed us that capitalism/market economy and their so called "self regulation" are not lead us into a fair system? 2 big depressions aren`t enought (the rent payed in fact by the state..not by the "self regulated" economy!)? ok, than go on...

If u prefer these fu cked up neoliberal system - beware. This kind of people are not intressted in ur health, success or anything else except ur money. All they now is greed...

One of the biggest tasks for the state (today) is to fight against this neoliberal stream!
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Male 167
he should have been a used car salesman.
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Male 893
"we need certain services provided by the government and we pay taxes for them. and if you dont want to pay taxes, then go drat yourself and live on a deserted island."


You can`t explain why I`m wrong, so you just tell me to leave. That`s NOT an argument! There is nothing that a violent monopoly can provide that the free market can not. Other than war.
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Male 32
Sad thing is no matter how good obama makes this bill sound, can we trust him so far he hasnt held up to his promises. In this bill there is a thing about student loans why I dont know, but if u want to get a loan from a bank you cant, u have to get ur loan from the government and they can decide if they want to give it to you or not. What does that have to do with healthcare?


who knows what else is in there but they are gonna either pass it all at once or slowly in small chunks.
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Male 893
Socialized means that you are forced to pay for something. By having socialized medicine you take away the incentive to look for a cheaper price and the incentive to be efficient. That`s one of the many reasons why socialism sucks. I have said this before, it only seems like socialized medicine works because they have a surplus of resources. They would do even better if they didn`t have socialized medicine. Everything from roads, police, to medicine would be cheaper if people stopped giving money to the extortion racket/coercive monopoly (state) because of the increase in competition. Kind of like evolution. God and the state work in a top down manner while evolution and the free market work in bottoms up manner.

Canada
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Male 669
well lets see, roads are built by the government. if you want to build them yourself, go right ahead. if you want to research medicine, go right ahead. oh poo your house is on fire, i guess you`ll just call the fire depar- oh wait we dont have those anymore cuz there isnt any tax money to pay for it. point is, we cant live like drating cavemen and provide everything for ourselves. we need certain services provided by the government and we pay taxes for them. and if you dont want to pay taxes, then go drat yourself and live on a deserted island.
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Male 63
Last but not least, What happens when you get really sick Anarchist god? Tell me, who would pay for your hospital bill? You? I didn`t think the kind of people old and wealthy enough to pay supported anarchy.
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Male 893
@TNoussis & chunkymonkie
You`re both idiots!

You mean to tell me that if I chose to peacefully secede nothing bad will happen to me???? Need I remind you about the civil war!
Could either of you morons tell me where I said I wasn`t going to pay for the things I need/use?

Here is something for the statists
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Male 63
I think you should also take a closer look at the meanings of both the socialized system, and what anarchy really means. I`m not actually gonna get anymore stuck in this insane arguments, where all I can see it you systematically blowing off ever argument these other guys point at you.

Also I live in Canada, where we have socialized medicine. So, I really shouldn`t give a damn.
I just think its highly ironic that the richest nation in the west, nay in the world, doesn`t have a socialized health care system. Look at Britain, look at France. They are both affected by the economic crisis, and hell, britain built their system out of the ashes of a post WW2 country, so why should the poor economy stop the states? And how can you believe that a strong economy is going to put money in the hands of the ones who can`t afford health care. Its not, its still going to go to the WASP upper class. Which is exactly why the only health care system that truly works for EVERYONE is a soc
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Male 669
yeah anarchist, you`re going to have to ride your horse on something other than roads (cuz you know, you wont be able to get gas for your car), and if you get injured, just use health potions, no big deal. if your house catches on fire no big deal, you`ll just rebuild it. also, when you have your little anarchist kids, you`ll have to teach them your own god damn self because they wont be able to go to school.
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Male 669
wait, so you`re saying we shouldnt pay taxes? are you drating kidding me? if you get assaulted, big deal, there wont be any cops around. and if you`re in critical condition from being attacked, who gives a drat? there arent any hospitals because there isnt any tax money to run em. it seems that you think being taxed is wrong, yet you take your services and other things that were spent with tax money for granted.
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Male 63
If you don`t want to pay taxes be cause you don`t think the state has the right to take that money from you, then its simple.

Go live on a farm somewhere, grow all your food, build your own house, provide your own heat and medicine, and don`t use the rest of your countrymen`s roads electricity or water.

Then you can say the the state has no right to tax you. Until then. Shut up.
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Male 893
"well actually we have a right to healthcare because we pay taxes, and some of those taxes go to healthcare. thats sort of like you saying that we dont have the right to use roads. if we didnt have the right to healthcare, then why the drat are we paying for it?"

Who says the state has the right to take what`s ours(in the form of taxation) in the first place?
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Male 669
well actually we have a right to healthcare because we pay taxes, and some of those taxes go to healthcare. thats sort of like you saying that we dont have the right to use roads. if we didnt have the right to healthcare, then why the drat are we paying for it?
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Male 893
"Nope, I dislike you for all sorts of reasons beyond trolling. "

I like you. I think you`re fun. Kind of like how an atheist would find a Christian fun. The Christian believes in this silly thing called god and you the statist believe in this silly thing called state.
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Male 893
You`re wrong! You do NOT have a right to healthcare, education, or even food. Healthcare is someone`s labor. You do NOT have a right to someone else`s labor.

Are you saying that the only way to collect garbage is by having an extortion racket? The free market can provide it cheaper.

You seem to think that the only way to provide X is to have X be provided by an extortion racket.
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Male 12,138
[quote]We don`t need an extortion racket (state) in society.[/quote]

See, I like getting my garbage collected every thursday. And I`m prepared to pay for that. Call me insane.

Anyways, back on topic (sorry, got distracted there), call me mentally deficient if you will, but sick people should see doctors. Without having to reach for their VISA before the consultation. Right?

Tell me if I`m wrong.
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Male 893
" The latter is a position of not giving a f*ck, either way. Diametrically opposite."

If you think about it, they are both about not giving a f*ck. Atheism doesn`t really give a f*ck about a god and anarchism doesn`t really give a f*ck about a state.

We don`t need an extortion racket (state) in society.
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Male 12,138
[quote]OMG!!!!!!! SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH ME!
THEY MUST BE A TROLLLL!!!!!!!111!!!1![/quote]

Nope, I dislike you for all sorts of reasons beyond trolling.

Feel free to state your opinons, no bans here. Likewise, allow me to state mine. I think Anarchy is what the cavemen monkey retards did, when that was all they had.

I think we`ve moved on. But that`s just me.

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Male 893
OMG!!!!!!! SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH ME!
THEY MUST BE A TROLLLL!!!!!!!111!!!1!

Liberals always say that they are willing to listen to other views, but then are shocked and offended when they find out there are other views.

p.s. Davy, I don`t know if you`re a liberal or not. I`m just guessing.
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Male 12,138
Alrighty, I`m done being trolled for the night. Peace and goodwill till the morrow.
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Male 893
"Anarchist, nice switch-swap there between anarchy and atheism. However, not. the. same. things."
Did. not. expect. that. reply. (sarcasm)

"The former is a political stance that we`d be all better off doing the UFC piece every night just to get dinner. The latter is a position of not giving a f*ck, either way. Diametrically opposite."

What makes you think we have to do a "UFC piece every night just to get dinner"? Come on man. This is just baseless assertion. Everything would be cheaper in anarchy. Why? Because of the intense business competition. That`s why.
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Male 893
"nevertheless, theres are still some major issues with your healthcare system. plus looking at davy`s graph, it seems that the american life expectancy is lower than the bulk of other countries who spend way less on healthcare. me thinks you`re not getting "enough" healthcare."

I agree that there are major problems with the healthcare system, but not so much with healthcare. America has the highest murder rate in the world among with many other things like our poor lifestyle. Take those out of the equations of all countries and you will find that America`s life expectancy skyrockets. So there`s not many problems with healthcare, but with the healthcare system. For example if I find a plan that I like in another state I am forbidden by law to purchase it.
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Male 12,138
Anarchist, nice switch-swap there between anarchy and atheism. However, not. the. same. things.

The former is a political stance that we`d be all better off doing the UFC piece every night just to get dinner. The latter is a position of not giving a f*ck, either way. Diametrically opposite.
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Male 669
nevertheless, theres are still some major issues with your healthcare system. plus looking at davy`s graph, it seems that the american life expectancy is lower than the bulk of other countries who spend way less on healthcare. me thinks you`re not getting "enough" healthcare.
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Male 893
"fine then anarchist, ill explain it to you in a way that you can understand it. people dying when they dont have to = health problem."

If they had died because they got poor healthcare then it`s a healthcare issue.

If they had died because they can`t afford the healthcare then it`s an economic issue.

Does that make it clear?
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Male 893
"Look, Atheist, you`re an atheist. We get it. It`s right there in your username.

You`re basically espousing global atheism. There`s a reason that religions over the millenia don`t list "Atheism" as one of their promotional products of reasons why you should move here. Some of us people (call us crazy) think of atheism as a bad thing.

Move on brother, there are whole forums out there for people like you. I-Am-Bored.com is not it. We`re just here for the relief of boredom. Nothing more, nothing less."

Well I understand that this is not a website where debates are to take place, but this is how I have fun. I enjoy letting others know about my worldview.
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Male 669
fine then anarchist, ill explain it to you in a way that you can understand it. people dying when they dont have to = health problem.
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Male 12,138
*sigh*

Look, Anarchist, you`re an anarchist. We get it. It`s right there in your username.

You`re basically espousing global anarchy. There`s a reason that governments over the millenia don`t list "Anarchy" as one of their promotional products of reasons why you should move here. Some of us people (call us crazy) think of anarchy as a bad thing.

Move on brother, there are whole forums out there for people like you. I-Am-Bored.com is not it. We`re just here for the relief of boredom. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Male 893
"alright well i guess when a person dies from not being able to afford treatment, we`ll just call it an economic issue"

That`s correct.
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Male 669
alright well i guess when a person dies from not being able to afford treatment, we`ll just call it an economic issue
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Male 893
No it`s not. It`s an economic issue, not a health issue. The fact that some can`t afford it is what makes it an economic issue.
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Male 669
actually anarchist, the price problem is also a health problem for people who cant afford it.
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Male 893
"Oh, and something about being forced. Frankly, I lost you after a while."

If you don`t think you`re being forced to pay protection then try not paying the part of your taxes that fund the police department.



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Male 893
" Best I could tell, you weren`t against a socialised Police Force that could protect your sh*t, as long as you weren`t forced to pay for them"
That statement is a contradiction. If I`m not being forced to pay for it then by DEFINITION it`s not socialized.

"Except you do pay for them because of taxes, so that`s OK, which is mandatory."
It doesn`t have to be. This could be a better world. Think about it. If police was privatized you would be able to smoke marijuana because you`re not endangering anyone by doing so. By monopolizing protection you get all these ridiculous laws.
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Male 12,138
Anyways, whatever, I`m not going to debate with you anarchist. I fully respect intelligent but strident republicans such as Crakrjak, SilverThread, Pooptart, Aahnold, to name a few who have weighed in on this thread. Frankly your embarrassing handling of the whole discussion of police, a page or two ago, precludes any enjoyable debate that I might have had with you. Best I could tell, you weren`t against a socialised Police Force that could protect your sh*t, as long as you weren`t forced to pay for them. Except you do pay for them because of taxes, so that`s OK, which is mandatory. Except you`re against socialised Policing. Oh, and something about being forced. Frankly, I lost you after a while.

You go girl. Carry on, I`ll debate with the debaters.

Davy out.
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Male 893
"You`re confused, mate. That study took in all the variables, including literacy, healthcare, education, economy, average life expectancy, school enrolment, standard of living, crime figures etc. "

It was you who said that healthcare works just because their standard of living is better. Correlation =/= causation.

"Fact you say? Seems like everything`s working swimmingly in all those countries. The US is the only one without it, and it`s number 13. You do the math."
Didn`t you read my comment? I clearly said "It only SEEMS like it works because they have surplus of recourses."
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Male 25,416
its obama!
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Male 1,557
Oh my general thoughts are that once the USA finally gets a National Health Service (NHS), give it 15 years and they`ll look back and say that they had no idea how they survived without it.
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Male 12,138
[quote]No it does not! You`re not adding all the variables. Like crime rate. [/quote]

You`re confused, mate. That study took in all the variables, including literacy, healthcare, education, economy, average life expectancy, school enrolment, standard of living, crime figures etc.

[quote]The fact is that those countries would do even better if they didn`t have socialized healthcare. [/quote]

Fact you say? Seems like everything`s working swimmingly in all those countries. The US is the only one without it, and it`s number 13. You do the math.
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Male 893
"I`ll leave you with this as food for thought. Real data, from National Geographic. Take some time to analyse and understand what this graph shows (sorry for the small text). "



Again you`re not putting all the variables in the equation.
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Male 893
"Look, the UN recently published its ranking of the best countries in the world to live in. The UN Human Development Report 2009, which is based on the standard of living in every country in the world, has the US at #13. All of the first 12 countries (and pretty much all of the top tier after the US, apart from the US) have highly socialised healthcare. It`s the best way to run a country, period. It works."

No it does not! You`re not adding all the variables. Like crime rate. The fact is that those countries would do even better if they didn`t have socialized healthcare. It only seems like it works because they have surplus of recourses.

Also we DON`T have a healthcare problem in America. Hardly anyone is complaining about the quality of healthcare. They are complaining about the price. This does not make it a health issue. It makes it an economic issue and it needs to be addressed from that angle.
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Male 1,557
I guess it`s just that I`m used to National Health Care here in the UK, but when I go into a hospital, I`d rather first be asked what the problem is and how I`m feeling, rather than how I`m going to be paying.

It makes more sense to me. If I`m ever sick or there`s an emergency, I don`t have to think twice about going to the doctor or the hospital, because it is (effectively) free.
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Male 12,138
I`ll leave you with this as food for thought. Real data, from National Geographic. Take some time to analyse and understand what this graph shows (sorry for the small text).

Deeply sorry for quad-post, but this is vastly important.

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Male 12,138
I reiterate, it`s abhorrent, and to me at least, confusing. Any nation that denies its own citizens the very best heathcare when they roll the dice of life and it come up cancer, on the basis that they`re of lower socioeconomic class and therefore can`t afford it, is not what a place that I would want to live.

I see the American reticence to move to socialised healthcare akin to the reticence to move to the metric system. As a non-American, I don`t understand this resistance to basic common-sense progress to a system that makes more sense, though the health issue is vastly more important. Surely there`s no greater basic human right than the one`s own life and health? I`m shaking my head right now.
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Male 12,138
I find it abhorrent in the extreme to hear the sentiment from conservative Americans that people who get sick, and who are poor, should be denied the same basic treatment and care over those who are wealthy. F*ck `em, that`s their fault for being poor. Frankly, it demeans the values of America as leader of the free world in the perception of non-Americans and decreases our respect for America on an international scale. (I`m talking only here about how the rest of planet perceives you, although I know there are many Americans who don`t give a f*ck about the rest of the planet and what goes on outside of America. These are usually the same people that take offence when America is accused of being arrogant. Go figure.)
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Male 12,138
For f*ck sake.

Look, the UN recently published its ranking of the best countries in the world to live in. The UN Human Development Report 2009, which is based on the standard of living in every country in the world, has the US at #13. All of the first 12 countries (and pretty much all of the top tier after the US, apart from the US) have highly socialised healthcare. It`s the best way to run a country, period. It works.
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Male 17,511
Male 17,511
"THIS IS THE SINGLE GREATEST ACHIEVEMENT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS ACCOMPLISHED IN MY LIFETIME."

This will lead to the single greatest defeat of the democratic party in many lifetimes. Mark my words.
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Male 48
Reagan was a bad actor who became a good president. Obama is a good ACTOR who became a bad president.
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Male 237
I think people are missing the real point here.

America is changing and not for the good. Americans (in part) are starting to depend on the government to take care of them instead of being self-sufficient. People in this country are putting their hope into something, that when you get right down to it, is a very risky bet. Some are putting their faith and hope that the government will do the right things with their money.

Wake up people. Go get a productive job, provide for yourself (and family), ensure your own financial security and if you`ve got a little extra and you see your neighbor struggling, do what Americans have been doing since the beginning and help them out.

Don`t depend on the government to give you everything because what the government gives you they can also take away.
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Male 330
Oh it`s going to be important for the future alright - but not for the reason he`s thinking. The guy`s a snake.

I`m glad to see AGs lining up to challenge this thing if (God forbid) it passes.
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Male 1,452

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Male 893
"If you don`t insure them, hospitals have a moral obligation to treat them when they come in damaged, yet placing a lien on the trailer won`t pay for the quadruple bypass. So doctor saves them, but spends X dollars. Now he takes X dollars, distributes it throughout its customers, and all paying customers contribute to paying X. "

If someone is of diminished means and can`t afford something that the people around this person thinks this person needs then that is a welfare issue. Respect the structure of production.
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Male 15,832
"so....what do we do with those that can`t afford/are denied healthcare republican IAB-ers?"

This question has been answered 100s of times, but you and Obama refuse to listen.

Okay, I`ll tell you the Republican plan one more time (47th time`s a charm?).

Bring down the cost of health care so more people can afford it.

1. Interstate competition for insurance companies. End state mandates for aroma therapy, sex-changes, marriage counselling, etc. Let people buy basic insurance and pay for the little stuff themselves. As it stands, no one cares what anything costs because someone else is paying.

2. Tort reform. No more PowerBall jackpots, therefore no more defensive medicine. And no more health care dollars going for crap like this:


John Edward`s $6 million+, 28,220 sq. ft. house built entirely with health care dollars.

There`s more.
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Male 893
@mystery08
No that`s what I meant to say. The state is just a business that FORCES you to pay for their services and products. Services being police and products being roads.

Do NOT think for a second that I`m against police or roads. I`m against the way that they are currently being provided.
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Male 1,399
We are against.
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Male 893
By forcing people to pay you are taking away the incentive to look for a cheaper price and the incentive to be efficient. You are NOT solving the problem by making some kind of a "super monopoly" where everyone has to contribute. And don`t even think about taxing the rich more than the poor. You`re just taking away the incentive for people to produce more that way.

The answer to allow competition to be fully embraced.


What should be done.
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Male 4,014
Insurance pays for loses you cause. Everyone dying will incur costs.

If you don`t insure them, hospitals have a moral obligation to treat them when they come in damaged, yet placing a lien on the trailer won`t pay for the quadruple bypass. So doctor saves them, but spends X dollars. Now he takes X dollars, distributes it throughout its customers, and all paying customers contribute to paying X.

Make everyone insure their own ass.
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Male 160
AnarchistGod
i think you meant to say goverment not buisness.
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Male 4,014
"You`re forcing people in buying something that they would not have bought."

It took me awhile to come up with a response to this argument. My response is this.

If you drive a car, you have to buy car insurance. Many states mandate you buy car insurance if drive your car. But driving a car isn`t necessary.

BUT EVERYONE WILL GET SICK AND DIE SOMEDAY. That sh*t costs money. Comparisons to car insurance mandates fail because, unlike owning a car, everyone will get sick or die. Instead, it is better to require everyone to insure their inevitable demise. That way, they don`t screw the rest of us.

Oh, and we`re gonna place a tax on individuals making over $200,000 a year, or $250,000 per couple filing jointly, but that probably doesn`t affect a large percentage of you.
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Male 4,014
wow
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Male 893
I am NOT against a business that provides X.

I am against a business that forces you to pay for X.
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Male 893
I am being forced to pay for them and so are you. If you don`t think so then try not paying your taxes that fund the police and see what happens.
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Male 893
Are you trolling?

If someone wants to pay for protection then let them. I am NOT against that.

If someone is being FORCED to pay for protection then I am against that.

I don`t understand how you can`t understand this.
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Male 591
So you`re not against police..you`re against police that force you to pay for their protection.

Even though you are paying for their protection.

So you are both against them ,and not against them.

Got it.
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Male 893
No no no

"Let me put it this way. I`m not against police. I`m against police that force you to pay for their protection."

I already posted this comment.
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Male 591
Right. Then you`re against the police? You think that`s a bad thing? I just want to know.
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Male 893
Right!
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Male 591
That`s right. You`re being forced to pay for police protection. So it follows that you think the police are a form of government socialism.
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Male 893
In case you don`t know, taxes are not voluntary.
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Male 591
If you pay taxes, you are paying for police protection.
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Male 893
Let me put it this way. I`m not against police. I`m against police that force you to pay for their protection.
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Male 591
You just agreed that those are examples of socialism. So are you against them or not?
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Male 893
NO!

"Just because you`re against socialism does NOT mean you`re against those things."

Read that carefully.
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Male 3,915
so....what do we do with those that can`t afford/are denied healthcare republican IAB-ers? just let them fall to the wayside and crank up emergency room bills?
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Male 591
My point was made in the post you responded to: if you are against socialism, then you must be against things like fire departments and police departments. And you responded by writing " Just because you`re against socialism does NOT mean you`re against those things."

Did you change your mind?
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Male 893
I know that. What`s your point?
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Male 591
The state makes you pay for LOTS of things, including fire departments and police departments. So by your definition, those are examples of socialism.
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Male 893
When the state makes you pay for something.
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Male 15,510
Team Jacob
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Male 591
Then what do you define as socialism?
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Male 893
NO! I am saying that many state services are monopolies.
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Male 893
"One major thing the healthcare bill does is require most people to buy their own insurance"

You`re forcing people in buying something that they would not have bought. That`s stealing.

And subsides are stupid. It takes out the incentive to produce more if you just take from the rich.

This companies are more likely to buy insurance because it`s already been paid for by the private sector.
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Male 591
Seriously? For example, you think the CDC is not a monopoly? You think they have some competition within the United States that does the same thing?
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Male 893
No I don`t. What made you think that?
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Male 4,014
"It mean you`re against having a coercive monopoly provide them."

One major thing the healthcare bill does is require most people to buy their own insurance, rather than pass the costs of their case onto those of us who do pay for our own healthcare. There is no "monopoly." In fact, a liberal critique of the plan is that what it really does is take government money and give it to insurance companies (gov`t subsidizes poor people to buy their own insurance). Hence insurance companies aren`t exactly sad - they get more customers!

The other major thing is to penalize employers with a prohibitive tax meant to encourage them to buy insurance for their employees. If the buy insurance for their employees, no penalty, and in fact, credits.
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Male 591
AnarchistGod, you think any of those government run organizations is NOT a monopoly, coercive or otherwise?
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Male 893
@filizok

You`re wrong! Just because you`re against socialism does NOT mean you`re against those things. It mean you`re against having a coercive monopoly provide them.
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Female 635
Being Canadian, I`ve experienced a socialist health care system my whole life.
And let me tell you, it`s worked bloody miracles for my family.
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Male 893
drat this bill and drat socialism.


What should be done.
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Male 12,138
Silverthread, my conservative republican right-leaning sparring partner of old. Well spoken sir. I respect that deeply, the wisdom and maturity to change one`s mind in the face of one`s instincts. Meant sincerely.
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Male 4,014
"I fear, there may come a time in my existence that I will have to pick up a gun and defend myself from the tyranny of my government."

What the Michigan Militia calls patriotism, the CONSTITUTION CALLS TREASON. I`ve read nutbag comments about armed revolution in the face of a healthcare bill all over Fox News, and I gain a better understanding of why the GOP is the minority party.

You know what the RESPONSIBLE thing to do is when you disagree with your government`s actions? You VOTE - YOU DON`T RAISE ARMS AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT IS TREASONOUS REBELLION. Sometimes, the majority of people don`t agree with you. That doesn`t mean you start sniping out the majority.

And remember, I have guns too.
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Male 591
If you are against "socialism," then I`m certain you`ll be happy to forego Social Security and Medicare. If you`re against government taking care of people, then no doubt you`ll think that your local police and fire departments, traffic lights, public parks, pubic schools, public libraries and the US Postal Service are bad for us. And it only stand to reason that you resent NASA, NOAA, the USDA, the FAA, the FBI, the CDC, the NRC, and so on.

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Male 3,431
You know, I had almost written Mr. Obama off as a president. I didn`t vote for him in the first place, but I respect the position enough that I won`t run him down outright.

But at this point, I find myself inclined to like him, and more importantly I believe he is actually trying to do what I believe is good for myself, the people of my country and the people fo the world.

With his term and his demonstrated ambition, he`s pretty well proven that he`s a decent man, and it`s been a very *Very* long time since I`ve seen a decent man in the oval office. He has my vote, but more importantly he has my faith.
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Male 214
I have a hard time getting behind legislation that going into what could be the final hours before a vote is still a question as to if they will have enough votes to pass it. When your having to dig and scrimp for votes from even your own party members, its just calls out that this is not a good bill. Another way to look at it is this... if this was the senate bill and it was going to the senate for its initial vote, it most likely wouldn`t even pass the senate now.

There are things that need to be fixed with health care, of that there is no question. This bill is not the fix though. This DOES NOT even cover EVERY American as some are being led to believe. It covers more people but does not cover all, there will still be over 20 million without health care using even the senates numbers.

There are ways that things can be fixed, redoing it all isn`t it. If you needed an oil change, would you just buy a new car instead? This is basically what this bill is.
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Male 725
I fear, there may come a time in my existence that I will have to pick up a gun and defend myself from the tyranny of my government.
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Male 313
Socialism is socialism. You can`t be a little socialist.... If the citizens of our great country want the government to take care of us. Then vote for more socialism. For you see in the end, it`s just a question of who has the power. That`s what this and all politics are about. Power, not what is right or wrong, but who gets to say what is right and wrong.
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Male 660
@goaliejerry I think it`s time you took your medication!.....(pardon the pun). If Americans got universal health care like they have in the UK and most of Europe, THAT would be something!
I hope they don`t end up with the hybrid system we have here. God forbid!
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Male 7,933
great...so not only would I have to pay for my health care...I`d have to pay for the highschool drats ups too....

Not to mention how great it must feel to have health care like the VA.....absodratinglutely great....
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Male 4,014
Oh, I`m freaking out too. As a lifelong democrat, I have to let you all know so that you might appreciate my passion - THIS IS THE SINGLE GREATEST ACHIEVEMENT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS ACCOMPLISHED IN MY LIFETIME.

Electing Obama pales in comparison - as amazing as electing the first Black President was, he will be gone in 8 years, but healthcare for all will last forever. Now Democrats massive majorities allow it to happen.

You know that scene at the end of the watchmen, where the bad-guy genius reveals his plot to bring world peace, and after he achieves it, he just lets his opponents wail him in the face over and over again, since he has accomplished all he needed to to serve the good? I feel like that. I don`t care how badly democrats lose now (we will lose seats). Punch me in the face. We`ve done more than we dreamed, and the negative consequences are far outweighed by the good we will do.
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Male 4,014
cobrakiller - take it from a political junkie - I`ve been watching the vote tallies today as Dems who voted no on the first House bill now say they will vote YES. It will happen, there is nothing the GOP can do to stop it. And they know it, hence the freakout.
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Male 4,014
When Bush and Republicans voted against popular will as expressed in daily tracking polls, they called it "conviction." When democrats supposedly do it, its called "ignoring the will of the people." Good when Republicans do it, bad when Democrats do it. I see.
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Male 4,014
"The last time I checked 55 > 45 = majority."

Want to know what DOES equal a majority? DEMOCRATS. 59 > 41 (senators). 255 > 178 (representatives). That is the makeup of our Congress.

As you KNOW, in America, we have elections. In elections, people chose candidates to represent their views. Those candidates then do what they said they would do. Last election, DEMOCRATS CRUSHED Republicans. CRUSHED. Now they are doing what we elected them for.

Democrats have the largest majorities any party has had in decades. THATS A MANDATE.

Again, just because the GOP says "the majority of Americans oppose this bill (which we have lied about all along)" doesn`t mean much.

The day we become a true democracy, where every American votes online for bills instead of voting for representatives, then your silly argument about what percentage of grossly misinformed Americans support the healthcare bill they don`t even understand
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Male 7,830
we`ll find out on sunday which way it lands
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Female 1,682
I am for it, and that is all I am saying. I really don`t feel like arguing my point, there isn`t any point. I won`t change your mind. So meh.
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Male 712
Okay, this is a huge problem and it`s pretty simple to fix. I`ve got the way to do it. No one wants to hear it but I`ve got it.

See, works like this. Do what I suggest, no more of your tax money goes into a bottomless money pit.Do what Obama does, Healthcare becomes next to nonexistant.

Your two options are as follows:

1. leave this in the hands of those who have to borrow money and spend it like crazy leaving a debt that will exist in perpetuity for generations to come. OR

2. Decommercialize the whole thing. Doctors make house calls, you pay them directly and pharmaceutical companies AND insurance companies have to compete. No debt, no bull. No big brother interference
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Female 2,352
I`m for it personally. I`m tired of hearing the bullpoo stupidity of both sides every damn day.
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Male 1,193
Its the same as social security. Everyone knows the youth of today wont one day get their social security even though we contribute money towards others social security.
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Male 1,193
Because the health care well not help my generation is is useless. Why should I get money taken out of my paychecks when I won`t have the same benefits when I`m old. I`d be all for the system is it was guaranteed to last until the day and age where I can see benefits.
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Male 13
Goaliejerry, did you have to practice to be that dumb? The GOP is not the issue here, this is nothing but socialism in action. 1) The constitution does not provide the right for the federal government to force health care on anyone. 2) According to polls 55% of the American Citzenship oppose this bill. The last time I checked 55 > 45 = majority. The lying, propagandist here is Obama, Pelosi and Reid. this is not about health care, but forging a legacy for themselves. They don`t give a crap about you, me or anyone but them. Hence Pelosi telling congress to pass this bill even if it ends their careers. You need to stop sucking down the kool-aid and get a grip on reality comrade. We are headed to being the new soviet union with these idoits at the helm.
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Male 3,369
I like Obama. Obama seems to value human life over money. The exact opposite could be said of the Bush (and all the way back to the Regan) administration.


So....

If you voted Bush, please send me your address so I can come around your house and give you a small fraction of the pain that the Bush admin inflicted on the world.

Dont worry..it only involves my fist, your lower intestines and large hospital fee`s! Seems fair to me!


Signed a non american who`s sick of your BS!
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Male 4,014
For the record - EVERY procedural issue that the GOP raised to suggest the vote was illegitimate (reconciliation, deem-and-pass, etc.) has been used by the GOP.
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Male 591
"This is a sneaky, Dishonorable, Backdoor way of passing this bill."

Not true. It`s being done in concordance with the laws and rules that stipulate how our government functions. And there`s nothing sneaky about it.

"55% of Americans DO NOT WANT THIS BILL!"

I think this too is incorrect.
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Male 4,014
CrakrJak - you`re a good guy. I have to stop myself now. I agree that we probably disagree on the merits. What I decry is the misperceptions surrounding the debate.
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Male 4,014
"This is a sneaky, Dishonorable, Backdoor way of passing this bill."

Yeah, because majority vote is SO un-American.
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Male 446
From a Canadian view, I don`t understand the resistance to the public option. I work for myself and I pay $60 a month for my healthcare just like everybody else. Works just fine, no worries. I think when these teabaggers wave the american flag around, they don`t give a damn about fellow americans` well being, but america as place where to make money and accumulate wealth.
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Male 4,014
CrakrJak - I bet a significant % of those opposed believe it is a "government takeover" of healthcare, "socialist," and that it establishes "death panels."
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Male 4,014
Wait, that wasn`t the GOP, that was Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Propoganda minister. Now WHY did I confuse his quotes with the GOP`s approach to resisting healthcare reform???

"death panels."

"socialism"

"communism"

"Obama is Muslim."

Hmmm.
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Male 17,511
This is a sneaky, Dishonorable, Backdoor way of passing this bill. 55% of Americans DO NOT WANT THIS BILL!

Be prepared for a huge swing back to the right this November.
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Male 4,014
pooptart - the plan merely requires everyone to carry private insurance. The only thing being run by the government is the tax penalties for people who won`t buy it, or companies that won`t provide it. I see you too have been grossly misinformed.

Just because the GOP says "Government Run Health Care" and that "The Majority Of People Oppose the bill" doesn`t make it true.

This is the GOP Mantra.

"“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over”

"“In politics stupidity is not a handicap.”

“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it” - THIS ONE THEY LOVE.

Let me repeat - "MAKE THE LIE BIG, MAKE IT SIMPLE, KEEP SAYING IT, AND EVENTUALLY THEY WILL BELIEVE IT."

Oh,
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Male 591
"Are we for or against?"

We are most definitely FOR. It`s long past time the United States joined the rest of the industrialized world in guaranteeing health care to its citizens.
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Female 3,828
still cannot believe america doesnt have good health care.

i hope this passes, otherwise everyones gonna move to canada. :-p
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Male 4,014
Let me just add this, then I will bow out (no debates from me today, I`ll leave it to Congress).

IF YOU VOTED FOR OBAMA, REMEMBER WHY. THIS IS WHY. HE IS DOING IT. IT TOOK TIME. REPUBLICANS RACE-BAITED AND FEAR MONGERED AS HARD AS THEY COULD. THEY CONVINCED LARGE PARTS OF THEIR ILL-INFORMED BASE THAT COMMUNISM WAS BEING BROUGHT BY A MUSLIM KENYAN.

DO NOT LET UP - THE TEABAGGERS ARE HUNGRY FOR NOVEMBER TO UNDUE PROGRESS.

VOTE.

VOTE.

VOTE, and work to elect the people who had the courage to vote for WHAT WAS RIGHT.
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Male 2,440
Well, the government runs everything else so wonderfully. Why NOT let them run health care? /sarcasm
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Male 541
For it.

If the republicans have shown one thing in their attempts to oppose and undermine Obama, it`s that they care only about their own interests, not the country as a whole, and they will lie, and play off the stupidity and gullibility of their own supporters (Nazi death panels, socialized healthcare = communism etc.) to try and grind the country to a halt and ensure Obama takes the blame.
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Male 4,014
You want to see craziness? Go here, read the comments. Teabagger minds going ........BOOOOM. Fox News Freak Out
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Male 4,014
Its gonna happen. Suck it GOP.

P.S.: I TOTALLY CALLED IT. I said, on this forum, back in February (or January) that Democrats would rally and pass it through reconciliation. And that is EXACTLY what is happening.

GET PUMPED DEMS. THE RIGHT IS ABOUT TO LOSE THEIR MINDS. DON`T LET UP. BURY THEM NOW, KICK THEM WHILE THEY ARE DOWN SO THEY NEVER RISE AGAIN.
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Female 376
I`m for it.
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Male 375
Hell no
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Male 2,592
for, but, wish it had a public option
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Male 1,793
For
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Male 472
Go Barry Go!
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Male 61
im for it. i have no insurance and it sucks.
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Male 240
Against
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Female 319
Link: Obama Rallies for Final Health Care Votes [Rate Link] - With the health care vote scheduled for this weekend, Obama looks for votes. Thoughts, I-A-B? Are we for or against?
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