Woman Live-Tweets Her Abortion--Really [w/Video]

Submitted by: Boadicea 7 years ago in
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/angie-jackson-live-tweets-abortion/story?id=9937689

"I"m doing this to de-mystify abortion--if you want one, you can have one." Well, if you"re legally entitled...
There are 363 comments:
Male 304
As soon as she said "I hope every one has a great and godless day."

She lost all credibility with 80% of the American population.

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Male 871
That means every time you have your period you kill a baby as your egg is ejected from your body!?
THe same goes for when you have a virus and you take medicine to kill it off, your murdering your cold!?
This woman took precautions and they failed so she took the last option.
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Female 46
Jesus people, if you don`t want a baby, be freakin` mature enough to take the precautions beforehand. Yeah, it may be your body, but you`re making a decision about ending someone`s else`s life. And I don`t want to hear the crap about, oh, it`s not `alive` yet. Bullpoo. If it has living cells, it`s alive. It isn`t that hard, people. Put a damn rubber on or close your damn legs.
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Female 1,172
Good for her.
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Female 614
@calderis, very very very very valid point.

also, people, if you are going to post long winded arguments over the internet (where you wont convince anyone anything anyway, and you`ll just raise your blood pressure), at least break it up into a few different paragraphs so we neutrals don`t get even MORE bored.

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Male 430
Angilion, I didn`t read your post, but I feel the need to comment and criticize it.
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Male 764
Smilin sam problem with that theory noone feels "unafected" after having abortion no matter how much they want to believe that even if they didn`t want it religious or not there is some sort of.

Bad things are inherently bad its called ethics and guess what its secular. Even in the case of this lady if it was something that could be so nonchalantly done why did she need the moral support of her friends through the process?

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Male 230
HOLY BAJESUS those are way too long i do not have the attention span to read any of them. except madest`s one and yes darkwatch is awesome!!
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Female 3,598
my argument always makes people mad when i talk about abortion... i look at the question more along the lines of Why is it wrong to kill something that has no value? When does human life begin to be worth something? i mean, if a person miscarries and she really wanted that baby, it is sad, because she valued that fetus as a life, if a person you know dies, it is sad because they had an impact on people around them and their life had value... now, take an unwanted embryo that has had no impact on a persons life, and is not valued or wanted, there is no harm done by it`s removal and it had no understanding of being concieved... it`s not like it had created memories of the womb or anything during the first tri-mester when the MAJORITY of abortions are performed... aborting something that has no value, no memories, and no impact on anyone doesn`t seem to be a big deal to me...
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Male 326
As of 3 or 4 years ago when I looked up the stats, there were, worldwide, an average of 16 deaths per second, and 24 births per second. a continual population increase of 8 people per second.

With that said, I seriously cannot wait until the number of children people can have is regulated so that this stupid abortion argument can die. There`s more than enough stupid in the world already. Stop insisting you have the "right" to make more.

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Male 7,378
I`m pro death. Kill more babies. Make more room and save more resources for me.
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Female 646
I`m definitely pro-life, and not for religious reasons. I mean, its just common sense to me. Once the sperm and egg are joined, you`ve got a possible human life growing in you, and I know this seems bad, but even if it wasn`t your choice and you were raped, you do NOT have the right to say whether that human lives or dies. It wasn`t your choice to get pregnant, but killing the being that had nothing to do with it other it being its conception is not going to help anyone. The trauma of the rape will still be there, regardless.

I have no problem with birth control and plan b that prevent the sperm and egg from joining, but once that spark of life is there, putting it out, in my book, is murder.

I do think, though, that abortion when the mother`s life is in danger from the pregnancy or birth is okay. And also if the child has an infection or disability that will prevent it from surviving full term or outside its mother, then it should be aborted to prevent some of the suffering.

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Female 434
Just because the law says you have a choice over your body does not mean we have to accept your choice. Why is what I`m saying so bad? Do I need to love your murder as well as allow you to commit it?? Maddog not sure what you meant by what I`ve posted as you did not give an example. hrrmmmmm..... Don`t think I`m an idiot nor did I say anything idiotic. I`m allowed to have my own beliefs and morals AND express them. Even if they contradict yours. What I don`t have a right to is to push my morals onto you. There is a difference.
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Male 27
Personally, I am for the choice, but in the sense of being for the safety of the mother, or perchance on the end of something a little more traumatic. If the person who was going to have the child was irresponsible to the point that they were having sex without taking preventative measures to not have a child, they should live with the consequences.
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Male 27
Hmmm... Okay, so we have people who are saying that life begins at conception, but yet anything that "technically" moves has some form of life, whether it`s larger than life, or even down to the microscopic level.
To the "religious" nuts on this side of the debate: Isn`t sperm a living organism? So, considering that its a living organism, wouldn`t it be sufficed to say that life begins before conception? And, to that end, I add this: If a majority of young males masturbate, wouldn`t that label us, as a group, murderers?
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Male 764
Confused, was I having a stroke when i typed which message? Either way the answers no.
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Male 2
Hahaha... Stroke
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Female 1,677
mischeif954: Did you have a stroke while typing that?
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Male 3,369
I just lurve the stupid that StphnHrrll is posting!

Someone punch her for me!

No?

Someone think about what she demands then!

No?

Ok....imagine what what happens if this idiot gets her way then!

that is all!

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Male 764
ok @ feiku i knew some full of stuff would have a full of stuff rebuttal to that if that`s the case and you don`t mind because your grasp on life is . Why wouldn`t you off your self if you carbon monoxide yourself overnight while you sleep you wouldn`t even know you wouldn`t wake up you wouldn`t mind that either?

Just saying.

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Male 5,189
Not touching.
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Female 525
To me an animal`s life is equal to a human life. But I`ll eat animals because it`s the nature of things, the same way a tiger might eat me if it hadn`t had a good meal in a couple of days. Since we`re the most destructive species on the planet, I don`t see the problem with abortion. Of course any live person will agree they`re glad they were born but do they really know any different?

I wouldn`t have minded not being born, really. I technically would never have known if I wasn`t born because I never would of existed. Just sayin`.

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Male 12,365
[quote]Angilion, are you seriously the type of guy who will lie like that?[/quote]

Are you seriously not bothering to read posts before replying to them?

I was refering to a specific position regarding abortion. A POSITION THAT I DO NOT HOLD AND HAVE NOT SAID I HOLD. Is that clear enough for you?

People frequently lie to make things easier for themselves and to gain support for a socio-political position they favour. Many people on both sides of the abortion argument do so. The reason I don`t like my own position (the post you either didn`t read or ignored) is that I`m not lying to myself about abortion. Maybe I should. That way I could adopt a simplistic moralistic position and wouldn`t have to be bothered by people not understanding (or ignoring) my position on the subject.

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Male 12,365
[quote]Angillion your theory is a little wrong,[/quote]

It isn`t a theory, it isn`t wrong and your supposed counter-argument is irrelevant to it.

Do yourself a favour and read a post before replying to it. You`re just making a fool of yourself.

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Female 196
atm - she said she was using an IUD, but it FAILED. It wasn`t her fault. She took a proper precaution (albeit one that does have a certain practically miniscule rate of failure). And it`s not that she didn`t "want" to get pregnant. A doctor literally sat her down and said, "If you give birth to another child, there`s a very strong possibility that YOU will not survive." (Paraphrasing, of course)

zafiras88 - excellent point. Perhaps the procedure was too expensive for her?

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Female 14
If she shouldn`t get pregnant for health reasons, why doesn`t she get her tubes tied?
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Female 127
What a sicko.
If people dont want to have children why do they even let themselves get pregnant?!
@#%$!
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Female 434
Yay for abortions! Aren`t they fantastic? My favorite is partial birth. You know the kind where they birth the baby butt first and before the head comes out and baby takes it`s first breath you stab it in the back of the head and suck out all brain matter. Nothing like watching your "cluster of cells" squirm around before it gets dumped in the waste bin. Exhilarating!!!
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Male 764
@ Hitaki318 wow I cant believe you even said that. No it`s not your purposely doing it a miscarriage is not on purpose unless your referring to a women who continues to smoke drink and do drugs during pregnancy I think what you just said would be very offensive and insensitive to women who have miscarriages to no fault of their own and already feel bad about it.

That like saying punching someone in the face to death is the same as someone dying in an accident.

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Female 193
Lol. I`m not even gonna watch the video because I don`t want to be grossed out, but it`s funny reading the comments people leave saying "ABORTION IS WRONG."
You`re saying the `baby` could be someone really great. Okay? Well, they weren`t born, so you`re right, you`ll never know. If people gave birth here and there to find out if they would be a great person, that;s overpopulating, and to me, THAT`S wrong. Of course they`re babies from the point they`re conceived, but they`re not BORN yet. That`s like saying having a miscarriage is wrong.
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Male 2,748
I think that it all depends on how you look at when life really starts. does it start the minute the sperm meets the egg? or when you leave your mothers body? everyone feels differently on that.
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Male 339
I`m not going to argue about when life starts or not, when it can be considered a selfaware human or a bunch of cells. The truth is people should only get abortions if the baby was conceived due to unforeseen circumstance (like this woman`s IUD failed), or if it threatens the mother`s life. Abortions should never replace contraception.

StphnHrrll`s story of some crazy getting 8 of them disgusts both pro-choice and pro-life activists, make no mistake. No pro-choicer is FOR abortions. You are for mother safety and choice of whether she is responsible enough to bring a child into the world.

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Male 764
@ The people saying pro life being hypocritical because they say your preventing life but condoms, pill, etc... do the same thing.

Sperm fertilizes the egg and and that`s the beginning of the development process. Not starting the process is not equal to murder.

"Women who have periods and release these fertilized eggs are murderer`s TOO!", no this is more like a miscarriage and I don`t think anyone here is mad at women who`s bodies through no fault of their own do no complete the conception process.

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Female 434
Also I like how she says this is unscripted, but she keeps glancing at something to the left. TOTALLY SCRIPTED!
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Female 434
Abortion is WRONG. With that said I would also like to say, I believe every woman deserves a choice. I`m the type of christian that doesn`t believe everyone has to live like I want. That doesn`t mean that I don`t feel sick to my stomach at the thought of those poor unwanted BABIES and they are babies. From conception on. The only reason anyone argues when life begins is so they can feel better about killing someone who could have been wonderful. Maybe they could be the next Mother Theresa, but we`ll never know.

If women didn`t have sex irresponsibly then we wouldn`t really need abortions. YES I understand that some women are responsible and still get them, I`m not talking to you.

I went to planned parenthood last week to get a pregnancy test and they had this notepad where girls would write in it. And one girl of 17 was talking about how she was there to get her 20th abortion and she was talking about it like she was telling them she took the trash out last night.

SICK!!!

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Female 434
Angillion your theory is a little wrong, if you`re able to abort up until the day you give birth that would be MURDER as a baby can live independently from it`s mother as early as 23 weeks.
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Male 162
Hey I have an idea. I`ll go out and murder someone and put it on Twitter. What a nutjob! Oh to clarify, human life begins at conception. This is an irrefutable fact unless people want to not believe in the human soul. If that`s the case then there is nothing anyone could do to debate you.
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Male 2,306
Angilion, are you seriously the type of guy who will lie like that? A child even when it fully comes to term is little more than you think--totally unaware, and practically blind.

So imagine something that is no bigger than a dime. Do you think a circulatory system denotes a human life? When women cannot do this, then their lives can be ruined. They need reproductive rights in spite of your moral convictions. And any pregnancies from rape or incest should be given the option too. A human life begins outside of the womb. But I don`t believe in any abortions past the third trimester. At that point they should just give it up for adoption.

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Male 12,365
[quote]How come when its us its an abortion, but when its a chicken its an omelette? [/quote]

We don`t regard chickens as being a higher life form on a par with humans. We eat adult chickens - should we farm humans to kill and eat them?

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Male 225
How come when its us its an abortion, but when its a chicken its an omelette? George carlin explained abortion best http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvF1Q3Uid...
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Male 12,365
[quote]I think in a sense Pro choice isn`t pro choice because your taking the unborn persons chance to decide whether living is worth it or not, know it probably sounds dumb, but its just a thought.[/quote]

It`s much easier to avoid thinking about that by using phrases such as "clump of cells" instead. So most people do and pressurise everyone else to do so. It works because few people have any idea how rapidly development occurs in human gestation.

Some even go as far as saying that there`s no difference between a foetus prior to abortion limit or birth and a single cell. npdarren did so, just a few posts before this one. No difference between an E. Coli bacterium living in your gut and a nearly fully formed person.

Lies make it easier to hold a pro-choice position, so most people lie. To others and to themselves.

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Male 3,369
@ Prejudiced

If your stupid enough to defend the undefendable then thats your problem not mine!

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Female 1,677
Nuh-uh, Boxxy was the most controversial ever lol.
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Female 2,761
mischeif954- you took the words right out of my mouth
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Male 9,305
We`re up to over 300 posts on this one forum. This may very well be the most controversial forum ever.
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Male 764
Doing some research for those who said Omg to tubes tied due to being complicated and expensive and invasive its about the same price as Abortion + cost of IUD`s plus checkups and have you read up on the IUD???? and you say tubes tied is complicated + the lack of side effects seems like the right choice to me.

What interesting among pro choice is that any person that`s alive no matter how drated up or inconvenient their life is or was they`re happier they got a shot at life whether good or bad then to not be alive at all. I think in a sense Pro choice isn`t pro choice because your taking the unborn persons chance to decide whether living is worth it or not, know it probably sounds dumb, but its just a thought.

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Male 764
Abortion is murder its not like Axe slinging murder its more like hospital bed they may or may not make it they may or may not suffer do you want to pull the plug murder but its still murder let`s not sugar coat to feel good about ourselves.

Also, if she knew pregnancy could cost her, her life why not try other methods of birth control, male/female condoms, pills, tubes tied, etc...

This whole tweet looks like shes trying to pull attention from her personal responsibility in this matter and wants to wrap herself in the "I`m a victim blanket", the real victim here is the child who never gets to experience anything but death.

For the whole abortion thing idk up in the air definitely think its wrong and if it has to be done make it a last resort thing and explored the optimal decision especially in a case like this if you decided no more kids why not have tubes tied?, but probably would say legalize for the simple fact that I don`t think I should have a say in what some o

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Male 601

The only thing that separates a zygote/embryo/fetus from any other organism in the human body is that it is conceived from two germ cells instead of from somatic cells. And I don`t think that difference is grounds for anti-abortion sentiments.

With that said, I still have a moral problem with abortion when someone gets pregnant knowing they can`t give birth to, or raise, the child properly. Abstinence is a far more responsible course of action if you know there could be complications with child birth.

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Female 5,222
wow.. my only question is that if she knew her life would be in danger by ever getting pregnant again why not just get her tubes tied?
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Male 1,647

I`m irritated people are telling her she should have the baby and have someone adopt it.

Without getting on a soap box, the problem here is that her first birth was life-threatening to -her-. It wasn`t about the child, it was about her own life. Therefore, this choice was made to protect herself and having the baby would mean risking her life. Adoption was not an option... if she were to have the baby, I would bet she`d just raise it, then.

Stupid people not reading what was being said.

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Male 7,813
honestly, im just glad it was this type of abortion. you know, its the internet, she could have gone oldschool on it.
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Male 893
@ballaerina

It only effects you if you let it.

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Female 590
"Adoption is a very good solution"

-

It bothers me when people say that, as if adoption doesn`t have its own emotional consequences. It is an option, but not exactly the pleasant alternative to abortion.

The birth mother (and father, if he`s around), child, and adoptive parents are all affected in really profound ways by the whole process. Often it can be very painful and damaging.

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Female 387
I think her reasons are valid but making her business public just seems tasteless (people are bound to take it the wrong way regardless of any point she may trying to make, if any).
Also I must say, many of you below me have some pretty interesting arguments there. I will always be pro-choice but I don`t condone irresponsibility.
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Female 250
The_Maddog, I`m defiantly pro-choice, but to say that pro lifers are morons is alittle stupid yourself. Their are just as many retarded people on our side of this debate, as their are on theirs. I enjoy when a pro-lifer with a good argument can debate with me. Why? I like to understand their viewpoint.

But for me it boils down to, if you don`t like abortions, don`t get one. Thats fine, I respect that. But you do not have the right to deprive others of it. If you do, they tend to go for botched home abortions, killing not only the foetus, buy potentially themselves. The life that already exists (mother) is more important then the one that may or may not exist (foetus).

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Male 544
Yeah, this is how I see it:

In basic biology, something is living if it has these characteristics:
Homeostasis
Organization
Metabolism
Growth
Adaptation
Response to stimuli
Reproduction

You can find all of that in a sperm cell. So, if you call yourself pro-life and use contraceptives (condoms, the pill, etc.) then I call you a hypocrite. If you call yourself pro-life, and you do not use contraceptives whatsoever, then I can respect your opinion if you respect mine.

But that`s just me. And I`m not gunna go out of my way to tear your argument to shreds.

And Calderis has my support: the abortion was best for the four-year-old child.

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Female 250
I totally agree with Calderis. Couldn`t have said it better. She shouldn`t have to risk her life for a child that may or may not ever exist. She has a child that already exists who needs her, what if she died?

The child that is already sentient and existing is more important then the cells in utero, especially in this situation, where her existing child is extremely dependent on her IMHO.

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Male 3,369
I`ve said it before and I`ll say it again.

Pro lifers are morons! Some of the prime examples are here in this thread.

Lets assume for a moment that all the idiots get their own way. Then what? Let`s forget all the reasons why a woman might have to get an abortion for a moment.


So..you force the mother to raise the child she dosnt want? Yes..I can think of numerous reasons why thats a bad idea. To many to post here.

The alternative is to put the baby up for adoption ..but who`s going to adopt? It`s not like
TV with a wonderfull happy ending. A shocking large amount of children never get adopted (though admittedly babies have the best chance).
Sadly many unadopted children get shunted from foster home to foster home. It`s even worse if the child has any form of disability.

Of course the idiot pro lifers never think....but if they ever do get their own way I say we dump all the unwanted babies on their doorsteps!

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Female 320
"The "billions of cells" are not "billions of possible people", but one potential person with billions of cells."


I actually thought about this the other day. We can take skin cells and in theory clone independent life with them. Does this mean our day to day skin-shedding is killing potential life? Maybe our future society will forbid this happening, and all women will have to have ovaries removed at birth to prevent menstration, and men will not be allowed to leave their navy stranded in a sock or a condom in the bin.

It also is possible for those `billions of cells` to become multiple people through natural or lab splitting of the early embryo. In the future would you be denying life to those possible twins if you didn`t? Sorry, just musing....

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Male 2,591
"My goal is to stay alive, and the best chance of that is to have an abortion,"

I say let the kid grow and let the whore die after sayin some dumb shat like that

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Male 326
FFS she tried to avoid the situation to begin with and it failed. she`s in a commited relationship, with a child she loves, and rather than risk her life and and the mental health of her special needs child, she took the route that guarantee`s she`ll be there for her son.

Step down off your moral perch for a few seconds and think about it, not from the point of view of the woman who some of you obviously think is in the wrong, but from the viewpoint of her 4 yr old special needs child. how do you explain to that kid that mommy may be having a new baby, but they may both die. But rather than continue on as the loving caring mommy who`s always been there, mommy disregarded doctor warnings and could go away forever.

She did what`s best for the thriving healthy child she has. It`s commendable. As are her efforts to show women who are afraid of moral judgement from people, that it`s a process that they don`t have to be ashamed of.

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Male 4,745
alexvieux, no offense meant, but you need to take a biology class....

The "billions of cells" are not "billions of possible people", but one potential person with billions of cells.

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Male 78
If anything, I think it is even MORE morally disagreeable to abort a baby whilst it is only a clump of cells. Sure a later term abortion could be considered murder, but interrupting the series of reactions that could PRODUCE a human? Your not killing one person then; but billions of possible ones. I get a bad vibe from it.
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Female 2,289
I`ve heard so many breath taking stories about this subject. I have no opinion.
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Female 446
I misscarried my first child at 4 months gestation. It took me a few months to get over the grieving. My doc explained to me that nature has it`s way of selecting life...and that my child might of had very grave conditions that did not permit it to go on living.

Ok I finally accepted that.

I later gave birth to 3 beautiful sons. But, my last pregnancy lasted only 5 months because my baby`s heart stopped. Doctors could not understand why but told me that i could not go on carrying a dead baby. I just could`nt deal with it at first and then i had to accept that to save my own life...my daughters body had to be removed from my uterus. If not, i could`ve died and left 3 young boys motherless.

Each case is different, but still, i believe that as sperm penetrates the egg....a human being is beginning it`s journey on this earth. If the child is viable...then...i think it has the right to reach full term and get to take it`s first breath. Adoption is a very good solution if the biologica

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Female 531
"Im against plastering the personal details of your abortion online for billions to see."
She didn`t do it as a publicity stunt, did you even read the article?
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Male 17,512
Attention Whore: Nothing to see here move along.
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Female 80
Im not against abortion. Im against plastering the personal details of your abortion online for billions to see. That said, no one in this world has any right to call her a murderer or anything of the like. We arent in her shoes and dont know her circumstances. Abortion isnt murder. If it were then women who get their periods would be murderers for killing their babies every month. Its a personal choice and the ppl who chastise her for it are very close minded and need to read something that makes them happy rather than somethin that makes them verbally attack people
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Male 250
despite my personal opinions, I still find this in poor taste, to be honest.
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Male 12,365
Hmmm...this is going to bother people...

I disagree with "when life begins" as a cut-off point. I think the cut-off point should be "when independent life begins", because otherwise you must support forced pregnancies and childbirth, and I do mean forced. There`s no other possibility if you choose "when life begins" because even the widest definition of that is at least 3 months before the end of a normal pregnancy.

While leads me to supporting the idea that abortion should be legal right up until birth.

It`s an ugly conclusion and I dislike it a lot, but it`s the only one I`m left with if I assume that forced pregnancy and childbirth is unacceptable. A lesser of two evils. I think. They`re both horrible.

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Male 759
The point is?
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Female 118
She knew she shouldnt get pregnant, she should have gotten fixed. Shes an idiot.
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Male 4,546
(At least in USA/UK. Most of Europe has a lower limit.)
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Male 4,546
See, now Spacegirl there is "demystifying abortion" to an extent.

Though I disagree with this statement:
"There is no point of arguing about whether abortion is good or bad, it`s going to happen either way."

The same can be said of anything from shoplifting, to genocide.

I specifically think that there is a point, either as an overall consensus (like we make all our laws), or for individual women, we should decide based on when we conclude life begins.

I think many women have no concept of what stage their pregnancy is in when they terminate it. They do not consider:
"When do I think life begins"
"Oh anything after brainwaves"
"Oh damn it`s after 40 days, guess I`m gonna keep it"

They (like most people) rely on laws for their morality. They put their trust in the doctors, nurses and friends, without that thought.

and currently, abortion is legal after every given metric for life has long passed.

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Female 627
However, I think she presented the situation poorly and she came off as saying that any abortion is okay. I think that abortion is a very bid decision that needs to be weighed very carefully.
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Female 627
I personally don’t think I can make a clear judgment of her. We don’t know her background. The circumstances of the pregnancy. If it was failed contraception or a bad choice. Knowing that she had a very difficult pregnancy and delivery of a mentally disabled boy makes me lean to saying that this may have been the right choice for her.
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Female 627
You`re arguing beliefs and not facts.

There is no clear point of when "life" begins. “The heart and major blood vessels begin to develop by about day 16 or 17. The heart begins to pump fluid through blood vessels by day 20, and the first red blood cells appear the next day.” Bones are densified at 5 months and that is also when movement begins. Brainwaves are detected 40 days after conception.

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Female 627
There is no point of arguing about whether abortion is good or bad, it’s going to happen either way.

When you`re arguing about abortion you`re arguing about when you think “life” begins. The theory of when "life" begins is different for every culture, religion, and person. Abortion has existed since at least the ancient Greeks and Romans. Many cultures have had forms of abortion and different views of it.

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Female 627
Again, these are the facts: She was 4 weeks and 1 day pregnant. The fetus is ¼ of an inch long. At this point the fetus is just past gastrulation, though it has been expanding rapidly. It has only formed the beginning of its nervous system called the neural tube. Its body has nubs of forming cells where limbs would be. It has not absorbed its primordial tail yet. It has no bones and very little cartilage. Here is a photo of a fetus at 4 weeks:
http://images.chron.com/blogs/realrehab/...
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Female 612
Well. She certainly seems like a quality individual. I definitely want to trust everything she says and be just like her.
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Female 179
Im not gonna say anything about that cuz Im extremely opposed to abortion and would get into a rant but, wtf is up her eyeshadow! I thought it was a drag queen!
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Female 434
No my friend who is 24 had one they kept her ovaries which stopped her from going into menopause
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Female 1,677
Because that would bring on early menopause which is no picnic for anybody, young or old.
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Female 434
Why doesn`t she get a hysterectomy?
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Female 434
I have a major problem with the unemotional way this woman describes her abortion. I suppose not everyone can be emotionally attached to something so tiny, but she is a mother already! How can she love her 4 year old child and so blandly describe the bleeding and cramping she`s experiencing as she`s poisoning and expelling her child that will never get a chance.

Everyone has their own choices in life but I can tell you that with 100% certainty, as a mother myself if I was pregnant and the doctor told me it would be a hard possibly life threatening experience I would still keep the pregnancy.

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Female 1,677
The preventing a life thing wasn`t a strawman since that wasn`t directed at anybody in particular. I wasn`t arguing with somebody when I brought that up. The second thing wasn`t something I ever said. And the evil baby thing was indeed related. She said it`s okay to abort rape babies, but not consensual sex babies, I was asking why. The 4th one was not a strawman argument, it was annoyance that that guy was such an idiot.
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Male 4,546
BTW Sorry Pui, if you think any of that is directed at you, it`s not.

I wasn`t actually picking a fight with you over the gender thing, I was just pointing out that I didn`t think it was fair, then Boad got me all riled up.

Basically, there is really only one issue in abortion which determines the morality of the issue as a whole.

You can argue men must think differently about that issue, but however differently they think, it makes them more likely to be pro-choice than pro-life. Not vice versa.

You might want to consider why that might be. It`s certainly not because of the reasons stated earlier as that would have the opposite effect.

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Female 1,682
Oh sorry, I thought you meant the woman in the article. My bad.
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lol no. its ok :D
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Male 4,290
[quote]Im talking about my Aunt who had 20 abortions...[/quote]
Oh sorry, I thought you meant the woman in the article. My bad.
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Male 25
"Aaaaaaaaaaand this is why I like having a girlfriend.

;D"
Aww poo. And I totally wanted to have your baby... assuming I don`t misunderstand how the whole process works.

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Female 1,682
Didn`t you read the post kier?
--
Im talking about my Aunt who had 20 abortions...
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Male 4,546
Incidentally "Putting crap in people`s mouths" boad:

Nobody mentioned:
Strawman 1: "For all those who say abortion is Preventing a life" (Count: 0).
Strawman 2: "Imprisoning mothers who have abortions" (First, 0 in the thread. Second, almost all pro life groups advocate imprisonment only for the doctors).
Strawman 3: "Rape babies are evil" (Rape is evil, the babies themselves are not. Nor did he imply as much.)
Strawman 4++: Your big argument with Merc.

And you`re getting pissy at me for my jump from "A man would say that" to "You`re dismissing him cos he`s a man" saying it`s unrelated, and that I`m talking to myself, when you`re just throwing in anything you can Copy/Paste that sounds roughly like a good argument?

drat, I even included reasoning, for why I was saying it even before you asked.

Also:
Men are more pro choice than women.
It is in pro-life`s favor to dismiss their opinion.

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Male 4,290
[quote]Nah, she was just a lazy hoe. Who didnt feel like getting condoms and thought abortions were just quicker. Funny, cause she has had so many done now, she cant even have children on purpose because her whole uterus is destroyed. Ironic.[/quote]

Didn`t you read the post kier?

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Female 15,763
Aaaaaaaaaaand this is why I like having a girlfriend.

;D

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Male 4,546
Boad:

Pui said: "Easy to say that when you`re male lol".
I said: "It`s easy to pull the gender card"
She said: "It`s just easier to answer "d`uh, course it`s wrong" if you`re male".

That was, as I stated, a cheap shot, and promotes the (false) conception that men are more likely to be pro-life than women.

I said it was "Dismissing a comment based on the gender of the poster rather than the argument he made".

I don`t see why this is hard for you to grasp.

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Female 176
"@lucu

no form of birth control is 100% effective, and if you`re saying that then women should just not be allowed to have sex unless they want a child... lol."

I completely agree with you. :)

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Male 25,417
Some people crave way to much attention!
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Female 1,677
Your responses have all been useless. Me asking why you`re picking a fight, to you translates to me being in favour of dismissing people based on gender and then turned that into a dig on PMS. Because mens opinions on abortion and womens opinions on... what exactly? are the same. Not quite. Men are free to have an opinion, but the fact is it is only women who can be pregnant. So pui saying passively that men and women can`t have the same approach to the issue isn`t some kind of unfair attack on men. It`s a simple fact. She also never said anything having to do with `men imposing their will on women`. You`re coming in here throwing crap around and shoving your words into peoples mouths to essentially have an argument with yourself. I don`t need to think about my reaction to your response, because all you`re doing is responding to yourself. That`s how you always approach commenting: talking to yourself.
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Male 4,546
You`re welcome.

Feel free to actually think about your reaction and my response now that you`ve had your witty comeback.

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Female 1,677
You may as well have. Thanks.
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Male 4,546
Boad:
Because it`s a cheap shot, and it promotes a common misconception that it is somehow men imposing their will on women. It isn`t.

However, if you feel that dismissing someone`s opinion based on gender is ok, I`ll be sure to reply with some condescending comment about PMS instead.

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Male 7,813
who could have guessed that this post would have started so many fights? i mean its just abortion, not like its a major topic or anything.
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Female 1,677
Why are you picking a fight on things she barely even stated Baal.
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Male 4,546
I don`t particularly see why Pui.

If anything is "just easier to say", it`s "Yeah a MAN would say that". Especially saying as it`s a lie with women being slightly more likely to be pro life than their male counterparts.

If anything, it is the men, who are pro choice. If you`d like to claim they are still the ones who are putting the least thought into it, I`m happy to agree with you.

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Female 3,574
I think the Boxxy thread has it lol
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Male 1,929
Whats the record post total for a thread? Excluding open forum.
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Male 4,546
And for Anarchist who claimed there were (no?) atheist prolifers: There are.

Link
Godless Prolifers site
IIDB`s Debate on Abortion between two atheists.

Etc, etc, etc.

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Female 3,574
It`s just easier to answer "d`uh, course it`s wrong" if you`re male and you`ll never have to worry about it.
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Male 4,546
Pui:
It`s easy to pull out the gender card.

What is the question here that defines whether abortion is right or wrong? Why can`t a man answer that question?

It is "Is it a human being". That is the question. Ovaries do not give you insight into the answer.

As for her "demystifying" abortion.
I think she`s doing the exact opposite.

Demystifying abortion would be talking about what goes on on the inside. What this is doing, is sanitizing it, just like the myriad of catchphrases that disconnect what goes on from what we talk about.

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Male 382
"I never said anything other than some women don`t feel guilt over it. You added the "so it`s ok" part."

Yes I did.
I apologize

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Female 2,352
I don`t have anything against her choice I mean I would totally chose my health over a fertilized egg. That said of course the crazy people are going to threaten you if you are tweeting and posting about it on the internet that`s just what they do.
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Male 382
Yes, the basic human rights. As far as making their own decisions, that is irrelevant to this discussion.
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Female 1,677
I never said anything other than some women don`t feel guilt over it. You added the "so it`s ok" part.
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Male 382
Your right Boad, well, I mean I haven`t seen many GOOD arguments, that is. And that whole, they don`t feel guilty so it`s OK argument you put out there came real close.
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Female 1,682
I doubt very many women do that. An abortion seems like an unpleasant (and painful) experience. I don`t think unprotected sex is worth the hassle/cost/pain of abortion every time. Either you`re full of poo, or your aunt is a strange strange specimen, and the only person alive who thinks "hm, an abortion would be fun today
--
Nah, she was just a lazy hoe. Who didnt feel like getting condoms and thought abortions were just quicker. Funny, cause she has had so many done now, she cant even have children on purpose because her whole uterus is destroyed. Ironic.
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Female 1,287
Wait, the unborn baby should have the rights of a human? How old does one have to be until they are capable of making their own choices?
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Female 3,574
I agree, the government really shouldn`t have that power.
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Male 382
Pui.. first point, is true, they don`t have to. I think they should, but current law says they don`t have to.

Second point is false. You calling it a clump of cells in no way makes it less of a life in my mind. Since it will be life without the interference of another, it should have the rights of the living.

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Female 1,677
You haven`t seen many arguments.
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Male 382
Mercedz.

Only good argument I`ve seen!

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Female 3,574
Just because you had unwanted children doesn`t mean everyone should or has to.

Just because a pregnancy results in a baby doesn`t mean that a clump of cells has the same rights as a baby.

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Female 12
WTF.
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Male 97
I think another consideration is the role of the government`s control in our lives. I think the best argument you can make for abortion, is not because abortion is philosophically justified, but because the government should not be able to infringe upon our choice act.

However, once you make that link between fetus = human, then all the laws regarding murder will apply.

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Female 3,574
Yeah I think that is pretty gross too.
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Female 1,287
"Crazily enough chemgirl, there are probably plenty of women out there who have had abortion who don`t feel an ounce of guilt. Ever."

Yeah, that`s understandable. The pregnancy was never anything you -knew-, it was just something you don`t want taking on life in your womb. It`d be a relief to get rid of it if you really wanted to.

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Female 1,677
I doubt very many women do that. An abortion seems like an unpleasant (and painful) experience. I don`t think unprotected sex is worth the hassle/cost/pain of abortion every time. Either you`re full of poo, or your aunt is a strange strange specimen, and the only person alive who thinks "hm, an abortion would be fun today"
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Male 382
There are probably just as many people who have murdered adults who feel no guilt either. I`m still glad that`s illegal.
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Female 1,682
_kiersten_, it may be far fetched, but I still would rather there be the abortions than have a woman turned away from having one.
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Right I understand that. I am just saying I think its pretty disgusting if a woman, who wasnt raped and is just having sex and getting pregnant, has 20+ abortions and uses it as a means of birth control. Thats just wrong.
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Male 97
DJDoubleb, thank you so much for that story.
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Female 12
What if....I was the mother to 4 poverty stricken children, then I was raped by a 3 legged dog but I loved my 3 legged bitch so much I had the baby, but i was forced to kill off my children cause I only have two teets...that then...
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Female 3,574
_kiersten_, it may be far fetched, but I still would rather there be the abortions than have a woman turned away from having one.
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Female 1,677
Crazily enough chemgirl, there are probably plenty of women out there who have had abortion who don`t feel an ounce of guilt. Ever.
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Female 1,682
_kiersten_, while I think getting 20 abortions is ridiculous, I think limiting the number of abortions that someone is allowed to have is dangerous. You cannot account for all individual cases.
--
Well no, but still, people cant honestly say that having over 20 abortions is right. Its disgusting. And like I said, if you have a case, like abuse, then I understand, however, the chances of you being raped and getting pregnant 20+ times...Thats just a BIT far fetched.
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Female 965
The people who are sending her death threats are non-nice individuals. She`s keeping herself alive to look after her disabled son. Isn`t that seen as a good thing?
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Female 12
WTF.
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Male 382
Yea, I`m a male, and a father to 4 children, 2 of which were unplanned. The first of which we found out was coming 2 months after we started dating. But we had convictions, and what we felt was a mistake at the time is now a beautiful 7 year old daughter who brings me so much laughter that I cannot imagine my life without her. You don`t think I`ve had to make sacrifices to be a father? You don`t think my life has drastically changed?
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Female 3,574
_kiersten_, while I think getting 20 abortions is ridiculous, I think limiting the number of abortions that someone is allowed to have is dangerous. You cannot account for all individual cases.
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Male 97
Haha, me neither Pui. Dunno, I think this is another instance where I`m emotionally on the mother`s side, but intellectually convinced that there is no difference.
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Female 1,287
I don`t think abortion is wrong. I mean, if you`re a whore that`s constantly having unprotected sex, and repeatedly getting pregnant and using the morning after pill, you`re taking advantage of the privilege. But in most cases, people need to have abortions. If you had an accidental pregnancy that you weren`t ready for? 1.) You can have an abortion, baring the constant guilt that you killed something living inside you or 2.) The child can be born into a life that wouldn`t be healthy, or maybe even unsafe. It`s not the same in all cases, yeah. And I`m not really one to have an opinion on this sort of thing. But if it benefits someone in the long run, it`s okay, right?
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Female 3,574
I`m Christian too, but I still can`t justify possibly hurting an already live and capable person for a clump of cells.
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Female 1,112
DjdoubleB, what if I`m the mother of 4 at the poverty line, I can feed my four children, or have a fifth and they all starve as I try to spread the food around? You might argue that that would never happen in America, but all of the social assistance and other things we have to avoid these problems also coincides with the availability of safe free abortions. The reasons might be selfish, but reason to do something isn`t. Are you completely selfless? Have you adopted an unwanted baby?
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Male 97
@Pui, I sort of feel that way too. It`s hard for me to see this mass of cells as a baby, and equate that to a human being. However, the reason why I`m pro-life has more to do with how I view the sanctity of life, and ultimately my conception that everybody is created in God`s own image. We may all look different, be it we have 4 limbs or we look like a bunch of cells, but inherently, we`re all God`s creation. So that`s where my authority is.
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Female 1,682
kiersten what`s the difference between 2 and 20? Logically each is it`s own individual situation not reliant on any other abortion she may have had. My example is not as uncommon as you would think, especially for woman in certain cultural arrangements.
---
Because you just killed 20 would be children? Do you not find that sick at all. That a woman has had a fetus sucked out of her vagina 20 times? I mean, I personally think its disgusting of her to use this as a means of birth control, but if you honestly think thats ok then so be it. I however would frown upon a woman who goes out, has sex, gets pregnant, then just aborts it each time because she was to lazy to get on the pill and get a guy to put on a condom.
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Female 3,574
so abortion is wrong, always?

Easy to say that when you`re male lol.

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Female 1,112
kiersten what`s the difference between 2 and 20? Logically each is it`s own individual situation not reliant on any other abortion she may have had. My example is not as uncommon as you would think, especially for woman in certain cultural arrangements.
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Male 382
pui, my grandmother was exactly what you described. Her first husband, a drunk abusive man, was no match for her and a cast iron skillet. :) But I do see your point. but alas, even then I would see abortion as wrong.
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Female 3,574
... I really don`t think needing to be cared for is equivalent to needing to be attached to like a life support system in order to survive because they have no organs of their own lol.
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Male 97
@Pui, in my argument against Boad, I never invoked my opinion on whether or not the fetus was an unborn person, all I did was assume the arguments that Boad made using her own terms. Boad wanted to assume that a fetus was a human at the time of conception. We got hung up on the definition of viability, but I granted her charity on that. According to her argument, a human being is worth destroying if it is parasitical to the mother. I made the analogy that "parasitic" and "caring" are similar in a sense when it comes to babies.
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Female 1,677
To nobody in particular:

I think it can be philosophically justified because it seems to have been already. But I guess getting past the confusing rhetoric of the first line proved too much to read the rest of the argument.

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Female 1,682
SO if I`m in an abusive relationship, and my husband rapes and I get pregnant 4 unwanted times...drat me I`m having a baby?
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The chances of that to me are pretty slim. I mean, if you have a special case, sure. But for the normal girl no. My moms friend has had 20 abortion, do you honestly think thats ok? Its not. There should be limits.
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Female 3,574
The trouble, mercedzdanz, is you believe a 4 week old fetus is an "innocent unborn (person)" and I believe it to be a clump of human cells with no brain, organs... basically nothing like a person. That is how it`s life is less important than the mother`s, who is clearly a person.
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Female 3,574
lol, DJDoubleb, abusive sometimes means almost impossible to get out of. What you were a 90 pound girl and your husband threatened to kill you if you asked for any sort of help or applied for a divorce, and there was reason to believe he would do it?

Yeah I doubt you`d be so tough then.

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Female 12
who cares...
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Male 97
parasitic or not.
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Male 97
If it`s considered a human, then philosophically speaking, I don`t think you can justify the killing of an innocent unborn, and I would not weigh the mother`s right to choose over the baby`s life.
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Male 382
"SO if I`m in an abusive relationship, and my husband rapes and I get pregnant 4 unwanted times...drat me I`m having a baby?"

You would be married to an abusive man that rapes you repeatedly? Married? really?

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Male 97
Yeah, I`m fully aware of the legal justification of abortion, but I was merely pointing out the flaw of her philosophical justification for abortion. Her reasoning does not follow completely with her defined terms.
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Female 3,574
how does it make sense to argue something that isn`t at all possible in the real world.

If a fetus, at the moment of conception, could survive outside the womb, abortion would be a non-issue.

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Female 1,677
This is the last time I will rely to anything that you post. I almost believe you`re trolling right now, otherwise you are just a slow dimwitted child trapped in an adult`s body.

Viable, in the context of what I posted, DOES NOT MEAN IT CAN SURVIVE ON ITS OWN.

"..viable personhood.." means only that the clump of cells can be considered to be a person (NOT AN INDEPENDENT "FULL-FLEDGED" BABY). All that means is it can be discussed in terms of being a living thing that can be a full-fledged baby at some later date. The point of saying that is to assent to the people who don`t believe it`s just a clump of cells. The argument CONTINUES from that.

Stop thinking it means it can live on its own, because that IS NOT WHAT IT MEANS. If you still don`t understand what it is I`m saying, that`s too bad. I wish you luck in all future endeavors, including that tricky business of tying your shoelaces. One day you will succeed.

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Male 382
The only problem I have with the "It`s not alive" argument is that I know that even if it isn`t, it soon will be. There are too many preventative forms of contraception to need a reactive one.

Give me one unselfish reason why abortion as contraception is needed and we`ll talk.

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Female 12
worst example ever.
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Female 1,112
"People should be limited to two or three abortions in their lifetime"

SO if I`m in an abusive relationship, and my husband rapes and I get pregnant 4 unwanted times...drat me I`m having a baby?

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Male 97
If you want to argue philosophically, you need to define your terms more precisely.
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Female 1,682
Sooo...she had a "life-threatening first pregnancy" and dr`s advised her against another pregnancy, why didn`t she just get tied or something? Or is she against that? o_O
--
Getting tied isnt as easy as walking into a hospital and going "hey, tie me up plz and thanx" My mother, after FOUR pregnancies, asked for her tubes tied, and they told her to wait a month, and even put her in counseling to make sure she really wanted to do it. Its stupid really...I want my tubes tied as soon as I am 18, but they probably wont let me -shrugs-
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Female 1,112
mercedesdanz let`s get back to reality here for a minute, at the period in a pregnancy during which legal abortion can be procured a fetus is not viable to live outside it`s mother, so no more hypotheticals on that one ok.
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Male 97
This is what you said:

"For the sake of argument, assume a fetus has viable personhood from the moment of conception"

Ok, then at the point of conception, as soon as the sperm and egg unite, then we immediately have a full fledge baby?

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Female 12
She went about it the wrong way, and she damn well knows this is going to get "attention" bad or good. I don`t believe the bitch had an IUD. I don`t believe she even took the pill, it`s called 15 minutes of fame, religion, morals...ya`ll are wasting your time arguing, this bitch will explain it all on Oprah. Only then maybe she can get a decent dye job on those roots, yuck.
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Female 1,682
Meh, Maybe she shouldnt have gotten a video. But its her body, and its her right. She obviously isnt a whore, I mean, she even tried a method of birth control. Its not like she is getting abortion after abortion. And can you imagine how hard it would be to have a new baby and a special needs child? I for one am ok with abortion. As long as a person isnt using is as a birth control. People should be limited to two or three abortions in their lifetime.
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Male 97
Thus, assuming your premise, there is no fundamental difference between an unborn inside the mother, and a baby outside the mother.
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Female 3,574
lol this is getting completely illogical.
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Female 1,677
NO. You unbelievable drating dumbass. You`re throwing your own definition into what I posted. In the context of what I posted, viable just means it is not just a clump of cells, it has personhood. It is a philosophical argument. So you were actually following what you assume I assumed. Learn to read, and then to comprehend. I can`t deal with you anymore.
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Male 97
Then at that point it would require "care", and would not be parasitic and inside the mom.
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Male 97
But you said assume at the time of conception the fetus is viable. Thus, by your logic, the little clump of cells can live outside the mother without artificial assistance. I was merely following what you assumed.
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Female 1,677
And as a human being, it has human rights. Are you even reading what you`re writing?
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Female 1,112
sidewyz8...tubal ligation is much more invasive.
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Female 1,677
A human being. You just said it. So not a clump of cells. That does not mean it can survive on its own.
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Male 893
"You`re an idiot. Okay, let`s all believe that. From now on, all unwanted pregnancies, right after conception, will be taken out of the womb. They`ll get along just fine."

I was hoping that they would just die. Spare them the suffering.

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Male 97
That`s how the Supreme Court determined whether or not an unborn had human rights. The point of viability. Viability is not defined as having human rights, it was merely a criterion to use whether or not an unborn was considered a human being.
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Female 1,112
There is no point of arguing about abortion.

Yes there is, because it`s a woman`s rights issue. If no one discussed abortion this woman would be chronicling her coat hanger abortion and subsequent jail time.

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Female 1,677
You`re an idiot. Okay, let`s all believe that. From now on, all unwanted pregnancies, right after conception, will be taken out of the womb. They`ll get along just fine.
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Female 627
You`re welcome.
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Male 97
No, in the legal sense, they have human rights BECAUSE they are viable (meaning they can live an unassisted life). There is no equivocation of words here.
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Female 843
Sooo...she had a "life-threatening first pregnancy" and dr`s advised her against another pregnancy, why didn`t she just get tied or something? Or is she against that? o_O
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Male 893
"You`re arguing beliefs and not facts."

I LOVE YOU!

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Female 1,401
She irks me. I`m not mad at her for having an abortion for the health risks. I`m just frustrated because she seems likes she`s almost telling people to have an abortion.
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Female 627
I personally believe she did the right thing. I don`t believe at this point (4 weeks 1 day) that fetus is truly alive or has a soul.
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Female 1,112
Danz you are not making sense because you are talking about 2 different concepts and 2 different ways to use the word viable. Viability pertaining to ability to live unassisted, and viability to have personal rights.
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Female 1,677
Viable does NOT MEAN it can survive outside the womb? Are you kidding me? It means it has `personhood`, which just means that the definition is in keeping with the people who argue that a fetus, from conception, should be considered a human, not just a clump of cells.
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Female 627
These are the facts. She was 4 weeks and 1 day pregnant. At this point the fetus is just past gastrulation. Here is a photo of a fetus at 4 weeks:

http://images.chron.com/blogs/realrehab/...

The fetus is 1/4 of an inch.

It has not fully formed a nervous system and it`s body has nubs of forming cells where limbs would be. It has not absorbed it`s primordial tail yet.

There is no point of arguing about abortion. When you`re arguing about abortion you`re arguing about when you think life begins. The theory of when "life" begins is different for every culture and religions. You`re arguing beliefs and not facts. There is no clear point of when "life" begins. But bones are densified at 5 months and that is also when movement begins. Brainwaves are detected 40 days after conception. But none of that matters depending on your beliefs.

I person

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Male 893
@gnomelover

I am more powerful than your god can ever be and I`ll prove it.
I challenge Him on His ability to post a comment.

AnarchistGod: 121
gnomelover`s god: 0

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Female 1,112
gnomelover it`s not God bashing. It would be God bashing if she said something awful, but she stated that she believes there is no God, and therefore you will have a Godless day. I think the same thing, but I don`t get offended when someone say bless you when I sneeze.
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Female 4,447
I have to applaud her for being so OUT with her decision, for sharing her experience. Though I don`t agree with abortion for myself, I understand that it`s a choice other people make and I can see how through this sharing she is helping others to cope with their decision. I can`t imagine how scary it must be and if this can ease your anxiety, then I don`t see the problem.
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Male 97
"For the sake of argument, assume a fetus has viable personhood from the moment of conception"

That was your argument, thus the fetus is essentially a baby because it can live outside the mother`s womb.

Which means that fetus would not require the mother`s body for survival, and you can force birth as soon as conception, and that little cell of a fetus would require "care" like a baby, without being parasitical or sucking from the mother`s own nutrients.

As for your definition of parasite, it is a good definition, but I think it`s not applicable once you say the fetus is viable.

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Female 1,677
The thing I posted said a fetus could be considered viable at conception. Do you believe a zygote could live outside the womb? No. You`re misunderstanding what "viable" means in what I posted.
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Female 1,677
Maybe you can argue that, but I would not.

Parasite: an animal or plant that lives in or on a host (another animal or plant); it obtains nourishment from the host without benefiting or killing the host.

If you have seen a baby like that, I pity you for the nightmares that would cause. I`m using the general definition of parasite here and for your convenience have posted it.

What is your point? A baby is not the same thing as a fetus, when it requires the use of the woman`s body to develop.

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Female 3,574
oh we`re getting precise.
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Male 97
A viable one can.
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Female 113
I was with her until she said "have a great and Godless day". I support her decision to abort, but God-bashing is messed up. Not all people who believe in God are non-nice individuals. This woman is ignorant.
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Female 3,574
a fetus cannot live outside a body.
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Male 97
"No a wouldn`t, since when has a baby had a parasitic dependence on another person`s body? They require care, but they can live and breathe independent of another body."

You said "viable" which means the fetus will essentially be like a baby because they can both live after birth. They are the same thing at that point, just one happens to be inside the tummy and one happens to be outside. The term parasite is a nice rhetorical term, but it really depends on how you want to construe the word parasite, and whether or not being parasitical equates to or justifies abortion. Further, there may be some similarities and dissimilarities between the word "parasite" and `care", and I think you can argue that babies are just as parasitic, if not more, than fetuses.

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Female 1,112
Right a the point where a child becomes a free entity of it`s own a pro lifer somewhere can adopt it. Abortions are regulated in our country so that people do have to think rationally and critically and make decisions appropriately, that`s why you can`t have a last minute abortion. (here)
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Female 1,677
No it wouldn`t, since when has a baby had a parasitic dependence on another person`s body? They require care, but they can live and breathe independent of another body.
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Female 1,112
Exactly Anarchist. To be able rationally weigh your situation and logically conclude that an abortion would be the best choice for all involved is exactly the point. Just as it rational to go to war to protect the citizens of your country (although, perhaps this is a bad example..)
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Male 97
@boadicea, according to that analogy, it would probably also apply fittingly to a parent and a born baby.
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Female 1,112
Thank you Danz!
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Male 893
"Rationality gives us the ability to make choices."
Like the rational choice to kill.

"Destroying rationality is destroying the thing that allows us to make choices." Who said anything about destroying rationality?

Again you`re misrepresenting me.

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Female 1,112
Free and accessible abortion have helped your society in the following ways: Lower crime rates, higher literacy and education rates, lower poverty rates, lower birth related mortality rates, lower illegal abortion related mortality and infection rates, the advancement of the women right movement
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Female 1,677
Of course, different belief systems will attribute different points of moral validity to the fetus, whether it be from conception, from six months into a pregnancy, or from birth. However, as the argument above demonstrates, the decision to end a pregnancy is a morally sound one, and should not be condemned on the basis of others’ beliefs regarding obligations of selflessness; rather it is left to the individual woman to decide what is right for her.

We live in a free country, where women and men have the right to make decisions concerning their bodies without outside interference (at least for the most part). The right for women to choose abortion must be protected as a fundamental element of this freedom, and if a woman chooses to use her right to free speech in order to remove the stigma surrounding it, I say more power to her!

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Female 728
I have to catch a bus, so I can`t argue with you guys anymore. I`ve provided the basic arguments for my viewpoint already.
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Female 1,677
If the woman chooses not to share her body with the fetus, is she morally wrong in terminating the pregnancy? No - she is asserting her right to control over her own body. Is she selfish? Yes - but to be selfish, just as having control over one’s body, is a right that every living being possesses.

To carry a pregnancy to term is a selfless act, and a commendable show of generosity, but from a strictly philosophical point of view, it is no more moral of a choice than terminating the pregnancy.

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Female 1,677
Here`s something I didn`t write:

For the sake of argument, assume a fetus has viable personhood from the moment of conception, and therefore carries the same moral weight as the pregnant woman throughout the pregnancy. This fetus depends on the pregnant woman’s body for its survival. Both the woman and the fetus have the right to control over their own bodies.

However, the fetus does not have the right to control over the woman’s body, despite it requiring her body for its survival, just as an adult person does not have the right to control another person’s body.

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Male 893
"A lion is not a rational animal. You cannot hold it responsible for its actions. A person is a rational animal. A person can be held responsible for their actions because they are capable of judgement and decision."

Besides even if the lion was rational would it be "immoral" for him to kill the antelope?

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Female 728
AnarchistGod: I am giving my reasons. I`ll state the most basic reason behind it: Rationality gives us the ability to make choices. Destroying rationality is destroying the thing that allows us to make choices. You cannot choose to destroy the thing that allows you to choose without contradiction. If you really disagree with me on this point, give me your logical reasons, rather than simply trying to (unsuccessfully) knock down my argument.
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Male 97
Hey bumble, I like your kittens.
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Female 3,574
YAY!
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Female 3,574
pro-life is nonsensical because often they are pro the baby`s life even if it will KILL the mother. Also, being pro-choice does not mean you are pro-have-as-many-abortions-preformed-as-possible.

"pro-choice" and "anti-choice" are much more accurate.

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Male 893
@pui
Here you go :P


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Male 97
"The human population is swiftly getting close to Earth`s carrying capacity; scientists are estimating in 2050 we`ll reach the maximum supportable population. So...that`s pretty worrying. If anything we should probably be encouraging people to reduce the number of children they`re having.

That`s why we`re going green :).

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Female 1,112
In the case of failed birth control, the woman still made the choice to have sex. Sex can be reasonably expected to lead to pregnancy. Even when birth control is involved, any properly-educated person knows that it is not 100% effective. It may be improbable to get pregnant, but improbable does not mean impossible. You should know that when you have sex, you are playing the odds and should be ready to accept whatever outcome.


You`re an idiot.

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Male 893
@Green_batman
Rationality have almost nothing to do with this conversation. You`re the one who thinks someone should not do X because if goes against your preferences.
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Female 728
Boadicea: You are ignoring the logic in my argument. One can be expected to know about the possibility of getting pregnant from having sex. One cannot be expected to take responsibility for the choices of others.
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Female 1,677
They also chose to use birth control in my previous example. They are actively choosing to not be pregnant. They are also choosing to have sex. You`re claiming that only one of those choices gets to be a deciding factor in whether they are allowed an abortion. You are basing that decision on nothing more than your own personal preference. You are not making a sound logical argument as much you want to say you are.
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Male 97
Pro-choice focuses more on the mother`s choice.
Pro-life focuses more on the baby`s life.

It`s a clash of rights. The mother`s right to choose to destroy her fetus, and the fetus`s right, if any legally speaking, to not be destroyed by her mother. When you say pro-choice, try to imagine how your right to choose may infringe on the baby/fetus`s right to live.

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Female 3,574
I WANT A FLAG!
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Male 25
This reminds me very much of a Simpsons episode.

"Abortions for all!"
"Boo!"
"Ok... Abortions for none!"
"Boo!"
"Hmm... Abortions for some, miniature American flags for all!"
"YAY!"

I`ll be here handing out the flags if anybody needs me.

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Female 728
AnarchistGod: A lion is not a rational animal. You cannot hold it responsible for its actions. A person is a rational animal. A person can be held responsible for their actions because they are capable of judgement and decision.
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Female 154
Insta-love happening right now.
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Female 3,574
idk, I guess I`d prefer "pro-abortion-choice" and "anti-abortion-choice".
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Female 590
Here`s a controversial opinion for you:

The human population is swiftly getting close to Earth`s carrying capacity; scientists are estimating in 2050 we`ll reach the maximum supportable population. So...that`s pretty worrying. If anything we should probably be encouraging people to reduce the number of children they`re having.

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Female 3,574
basically he thinks morals shouldn`t exists and nothing should be based on morals.
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Female 728
Boadicea: Rape comes from the choices of another. It is not your choice when someone rapes you. It is your choice to have sex. Well-documented natural occurrences are things that we must be aware of when we make our decisions. The decisions of others cannot be predicted, and fall into the responsibility of those others. For example: If you choose to steal from someone, you cannot say that they should have predicted that you would steal from them, making it their fault. You chose to steal from them, so it is your fault.
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Female 15,763
...But it isn`t, it`s pro-abortion-choice. I guess I just don`t comprehend the misunderstanding.
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Male 893
@green_batman
Yes I did.
I`ll repost my comment again.

"Even calling murder immoral is an attempt to give a preference superpowers. Is it immoral for the lion to murder the antelope to spare the lion of hunger? No.
But when you murder a fetus to spare the women of labor and responsibility all of a sudden that`s immoral to some people.

What I`m trying to say is that the words "moral" are "immoral" are stupid words that limit our ability to see past our emotions."

All you did was call it wrong and immoral.

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Male 20,827
Oh, wait a minute--she`s from Florida?

OK, it all makes sense now.

Carry on.

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Female 3,574
wow this thread is very confusing hahah
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Male 3,369
Her body, her choice.

The pro lifers can go rot for all I care!

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Male 893
"but being a bitch is so much fun!"

Can`t argue with you there.

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Female 728
AnarchistGod: You missed my point as well. There was no logical argument to oppose mine in your post. You tried to discount my argument by undermining me, but you did not truly undermine me because you yourself did not use logic. If you want to argue with me, you will have to do more than make fun of me.
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Female 1,677
Well in that same vein, any properly-educated person realizes that rape happens in every society. So every time a woman finds herself out in public, she should realize she is playing the odds and may be raped, and end up pregnant.
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Female 3,574
and no
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Female 3,574
but being a bitch is so much fun!
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Male 893
"but it implies that the other side is somehow pro-abortion"

Was that comment for me?

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Female 3,574
but it implies that the other side is somehow pro-abortion.
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Female 1,677
"by the way, to follow up on my comment, it was made in regards to the retardedness of this chick, i have no stand on abortion one way or another."

It`s retarded to show women how early-term abortion works when they might find themselves in a similar situation and appreciate information based on first-hand experience?

This from the guy posting tits every day.

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Male 893
"This is not an anarchy debate."

Then don`t be a bitch about my apolitical views

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Female 728
Boadicea: In the case of failed birth control, the woman still made the choice to have sex. Sex can be reasonably expected to lead to pregnancy. Even when birth control is involved, any properly-educated person knows that it is not 100% effective. It may be improbable to get pregnant, but improbable does not mean impossible. You should know that when you have sex, you are playing the odds and should be ready to accept whatever outcome.
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Female 15,763
How so? From what I understand of the pro-choice argument, they are against abortion in all cases, save for some individuals who have exceptions to the belief... as happens in all generalized concepts.
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Male 7,378
Sometimes abortion is mercy.
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Male 893
@green_batman
No I don`t think that it`s immoral for you to argue against a man. You COMPLETELY missed my point.
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Female 3,574
This is not an anarchy debate.
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Female 1,677
You`re the one putting abortion in league with grand theft auto. To some people, it`s the last resort after failed birth control, or the ineffectiveness of the morning-after pill. To some people it is not some agonizing life-altering decision- it is a necessary medical procedure at that point in their life. You think it should be equal to murder because you don`t agree with it personally, but that is your opinion. And yes, this is my opinion, I know. But my opinion won`t lead to women`s rights taking a giant backward leap.
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Male 893
"lol oh brother. Have fun in your fantasy land then."

Best argument for a coercive monopoly ever! :P

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Female 3,574
but saying "anti-abortion" on the other side is misleading then.
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Male 20,827
by the way, to follow up on my comment, it was made in regards to the retardedness of this chick, i have no stand on abortion one way or another.

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Female 15,763
I said "pro-abortion-choice."

Please read my words correctly.

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Female 728
AnarchistGod: Is there some reason why it is wrong for me to argue with a man? Is there some empirical proof that men are always right? Do you understand the meaning of the term "logic"? There is no logic in your argument. If you want to discount my argument, you will have to use rational logic or empirical evidence.
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Female 3,574
lol oh brother. Have fun in your fantasy land then.
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Female 3,574
I am not pro abortion. I don`t think every person should have an abortion. I do not even like abortion and think it`s often a sad choice to have to make.

"pro-choice" makes much more sense. I am pro giving women the CHOICE. If I could make it so there were less abortions, that would make me happy too.

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Male 893
"lol, AnarchistGod, are you saying that no part of human society should be based on any sort of morals?
So basically you believe in complete anarchy, like your name suggests? lol, cause that would work out well for the human race."

Yes it would. However I sensed the sarcasm.

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Female 15,763
I`d also like to point out that the terms "pro-choice" and "pro-life" and incredibly misleading. Everyone likes having the ability to make choices and everyone likes life. I find pro-abortion-choice and anti-abortion would be much better terms, but then of course they don`t "sound as nice."

Everything is marketable these days!

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Female 728
Boadicea: You are comparing very minor examples that arguably have little to do with responsibility to a much larger example of responsibility.

To put it in context: If you (in the general sense) were to steal a car, there would be consequences to it. The owner of the car may not be able to go to work, and you end up costing them money. It isn`t the owner`s fault that his car was stolen; it is yours. If your car was stolen, you would want the criminal to be punished for it, so you would want to be able to say that the criminal was responsible for his actions.

When responsibility is disregarded, we end up with a society where all is permitted, regardless of how harmful it is to others. It means that someone could hurt you simply because they felt like it, but you couldn`t meaningfully respond to those actions. You may be able to hurt them back, but there is no meaning in the gesture, and there is no social backing to properly balance the punishment.

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Female 1,148
Hooray for PROCHOICE!
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Female 1,677
"Abortions should be illegal so people, and not just women, will make better decisions."

Theft should be illegal, murder should be illegal, arson should be illegal, stabbing should be illegal, rape should be illegal.

Oh wait.

Yeah I forgot how outlawing something makes everybody perfect.

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Male 893

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Male 7,378
AnarchistGod, You are a guy. You can`t have an abortion. You`ll never be faced with the problem unless advancements in sex reassignment surgery can make you into the woman you seemingly want to be.
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Female 3,574
lol, AnarchistGod, are you saying that no part of human society should be based on any sort of morals?

So basically you believe in complete anarchy, like your name suggests? lol, cause that would work out well for the human race.

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Female 1,677
"Smart up some"

Wow.

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Female 15,763
I just want to put out there that abstinence isn`t 100% effective. There`s always rape!

:D

Continue...

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Female 1,677
"it is a matter of forcing the woman to go through with something that isn`t her choice"

What about failed birth control? In that case, clearly the woman`s choice was to NOT get pregnant, yet ended up pregnant because the BC failed. How is that different? Women can take steps to protect themselves from rape and from pregnancy, yet those precautions do not always work. Why is only one worthy of an abortion pass, according to you?

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Male 893
"But no, I don`t believe in souls in a religious context."
How about in a spiritual context?

"The word moral is most accurately used from a logical philosophical perspective. I am arguing from logic, not from dogma."

It`s not moral for you to talk back to a man and I`m right about that because I`m arguing from a logical perspective. See what I did there? I tried to give my preferences superpowers.

You can call it moral or logical all you want honey, but for the people who can see past their emotions can see right through you.

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Female 3,574
@lucu

no form of birth control is 100% effective, and if you`re saying that then women should just not be allowed to have sex unless they want a child... lol.

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Female 176
"So you think abortion should be illegal? You do realize that doesn`t mean abortion will stop, right? It will go back to wire hangers and other back-alley abortions. As somebody who describes themself as pro-life, you`re essentially saying you`re okay with countless womens` lives being put in danger through unsafe abortion procedures."

If women are dumb enough to do "self-abortions" like that, then they shouldn`t have had sex. Why have sex with someone when you can`t care for it? What happened to birth control? If you can`t pay for it, it`s free. Why not prevent it with a condom too?! Why not? Come on. Smart up some. Abortions should be illegal so people, and not just women, will make better decisions. And there is always giving it up for adoption.

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Female 728
Boadicea: It takes time to respond to half a dozen people responding to my comments.

I don`t think that the baby is evil. In the case of rape, it is a matter of forcing the woman to go through with something that isn`t her choice vs. ending a life. It is wrong for the rapist to force the woman to carry the child, and it is wrong to kill the child. So it is a choice between two wrongs. Personally, I would never have an abortion under any circumstances. I`m merely acknowledging that it is a gray area.

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Female 728
AnarchistGod: I believe in rationality. I don`t know how that compares to your question about souls. If you are familiar with philosophy, I can tell you that my views are very similar to those of Kant. But no, I don`t believe in souls in a religious context.

And I`m not giving preference to a superpower. The word moral is most accurately used from a logical philosophical perspective. I am arguing from logic, not from dogma.

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Female 1,677
green_batman: I REPEAT:

"You didn`t really answer the question. Why is a baby out of consensual sex more deserving of life than a baby conceived from rape? A life is a life."

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Male 893
People who use the words right and wrong are annoying.

It`s wrong to do it because I say it`s wrong. Pfft :P
What kind of logic is this?

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Female 1,677
"In destroying that person, the involved parties are trying to avoid responsibility for their actions."

And why is that a problem? People are allowed to avoid responsibility for their actions in all fields of life. "Hmm, that colour sucks, let`s paint over it and pretend this never happened", "Oh no I knocked over their vase, book it!"

Why frame it in terms of accepting responsibility?

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Male 97
Even if we accept the premise that life begins at the point of viability, the fact of the matter is, abortion is not a perfect procedure, and doctors and mothers end up killing babies with fundamental human rights. This happens on a regular basis. Let me give you some quick facts:

(1) An average of 1.3 million babies are aborted every year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_a...

(2) Late-term abortion occurs at week 20.

(3) 1.4% of all abortions occur after 20+ weeks of pregnancy.

(4) Of the 1.4% aborted after week 20, 10-20% of those babies are actually viable. Which means, they are alive, and have fundamental human rights. The doctors leave them to die. http://bornalivetruth.org/faq.aspx

(5) Therefore, at the very least, 1820 to 3640 babies with fundamental human rights die every year.

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Female 728
Madest: If you object to the term murder being applied here, I`ll break it down in simpler terms: it is killing. Killing another person is wrong in all cases, there are simply some cases in which it is the lesser wrong. A fetus is something that naturally acquires a rational mind. Anyone with rudimentary knowledge of sex knows that it can and often will create a new person. In destroying that person, the involved parties are trying to avoid responsibility for their actions.
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Male 620
Parent of a kid conceived with an IUD here.


All birth control is no better than 99.9% effective. .1% is pooty odds, use two forms of birth control.


But again, all this flame war, lul. Meh.

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Female 1,677
"I think that there is still some degree of wrongness to abortion, regardless of the circumstances, but it is a choice between the lesser of two evils in the cases I mentioned."

What is evil about a rape baby? You didn`t really answer the question. Why is a baby out of consensual sex more deserving of life than a baby conceived from rape? A life is a life.

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Male 893
Here`s a repost of a previous comment of mine.

"Even calling murder immoral is an attempt to give a preference superpowers. Is it immoral for the lion to murder the antelope to spare the lion of hunger? No.
But when you murder a fetus to spare the women of labor and responsibility all of a sudden that`s immoral to some people.

What I`m trying to say is that the words "moral" are "immoral" are stupid words that limit our ability to see past our emotions."

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Male 97
Legally speaking, abortion of a pre-viable fetus is not against the law.

If you want to base your morality off the law, then go right ahead.

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Female 3,574
pui: Further, it`s not anti-choice. Choice implies some degree of logical thought and judgement. Many women getting abortions do not consider the moral implications, so I wouldn`t call that "choice". That`s merely doing what feels right, regardless of how wrong it is.

Soooo you should just not give them the option at all (unless they are raped, apparently)?

Or are you just pro making it harder for people to get abortions by making sure they understand these "moral implications"?

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Female 751
@xenophonix right on! lol


p.s. ROCKIN` THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE. I personally would not be able to do it, but my big sister has and I don`t judge her, I know her reasoning for it, and I`m ok with it. :)

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Female 1,677
So you think abortion should be illegal? You do realize that doesn`t mean abortion will stop, right? It will go back to wire hangers and other back-alley abortions. As somebody who describes themself as pro-life, you`re essentially saying you`re okay with countless womens` lives being put in danger through unsafe abortion procedures.
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Male 893
"Further, it`s not anti-choice. Choice implies some degree of logical thought and judgement. Many women getting abortions do not consider the moral implications, so I wouldn`t call that "choice". That`s merely doing what feels right, regardless of how wrong it is."

Sigh another person trying to give their preferences superpowers by using the word "moral".

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Male 893
@green_batman
This question may seem irrelevant, but could you please answer it. Thanks

Do you believe in souls?

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Female 728
pui: Further, it`s not anti-choice. Choice implies some degree of logical thought and judgement. Many women getting abortions do not consider the moral implications, so I wouldn`t call that "choice". That`s merely doing what feels right, regardless of how wrong it is.
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Female 728
Boadicea: I think that there is still some degree of wrongness to abortion, regardless of the circumstances, but it is a choice between the lesser of two evils in the cases I mentioned.

AnarchistGod: I would try to convince someone not to have an abortion, but I wouldn`t physically restrain them, as I don`t have that authority. Unfortunately, the government, which does have that authority, chooses not to exercise it. I think that the law should be changed, but in the meantime, there is little to be done.

pui: I suppose we have another gray area in this case. When a pregnancy is risky, it doesn`t mean that there is a 100% probability of death for the mother, so there is always the chance that she would be needlessly aborting the child. I think her flippant attitude toward the abortion shows that she wouldn`t particularly care for the philosophical points in any case.

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Male 893
But in all seriousness I don`t really care.
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Female 3,574
Once again, being christian =/= being anti-choice automatically.

and we already proved there are also non-religious people who are anti-choice, sooo...

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Male 893
"Is twittering about your abortion gross? Okay? Cool?"

I think it`s the coolest thing anyone has ever done in the history of mankind.

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Male 7,378
She twittered about taking a pill that would be sold over the counter just like aspirin if it were not for the religious yahoo`s in this country.
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Female 3,574
Okay, abortion being right/wrong aside, let`s start a new conversation:

Is twittering about your abortion gross? Okay? Cool?

Opinions?

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Female 15,763
Madest is right, murder is a legal term. Meat is not murder and abortion is not murder. Whether abortion is killing, or any other nonlegal and pre-defined term, is an entirely separate debate.
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Male 893
Murder: the killing of another human being.

The question is "Is a fetus a human being"

In my opinion I say yes.
So abortion is murder.

But just because you`re a human does NOT mean you`re a person.

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Female 1,677
All you people who are `pro-life`: how much time should a woman serve in prison for the intentional murder of her fetus? Seriously, what seems reasonable to you?
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Male 7,378
Abortion is not murder because abortion is not against the law. When someone commits murder in America they go to Jail. When you call it murder you are talking about a crime. Abortion is legal in all 50 states. Get off of your high-falutin` horse you do not have the authority to rename something that is already named. You are a nobody.
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Female 3,574
pro-life just means they`re anti choice. They do not think people should be able to make the choice to have an abortion without consequences.
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Female 3,574
@green_batman, in this case she could die trying to carry a baby to full term. She already has a child who depends on her. Would it really be right to risk her life?
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Female 2,289