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Date: 02/15/10 12:05 PM

117 Responses to Utah In DEEP Financial Poo, Mortgaging Teens

  1. Profile photo of goog!
    goog! Male 13-17
    320 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 11:41 am
    Link: Utah In DEEP Financial Poo, Mortgaging Teens - How deep you ask? Let`s put it this way: There`s gonna be a lot more uneducated dummies coming out of the Mormon state.
  2. Profile photo of Rick_S
    Rick_S Male 40-49
    3282 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 12:16 pm
    I love his reasoning. They waste their Senior year, but don`t their Junior, so just eliminate the Senior year. Doesn`t he remember his childhood? If he did, he`d know that eliminating the Senior year would just mean kids would waste their Junior year instead! (I know I would have!)
  3. Profile photo of MrsHoneyDew
    MrsHoneyDew Female 18-29
    388 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 12:16 pm
    I wasn`t ready for the world at 18 even. This is a horrible idea.
  4. Profile photo of Winter_ICE_0
    Winter_ICE_0 Male 13-17
    976 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 12:18 pm
    Wow, idiots should not be allowed to decide what of should be cut for financial reasons.
  5. Profile photo of DeutschDude9
    DeutschDude9 Male 18-29
    473 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 12:18 pm
    This is a great idea. We need to do it in California. Just make sure that Junior year actually has things for the kids to do, so it can`t be wasted.
  6. Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 12:22 pm
    This is a terrible idea. There`s no reason why the state should be giving students the a-okay to throw away free education. And the excuse they made about senioritis would apply just the same once students decide that they won`t take senior year. Then it would be junioritis.

    There have to be other ways that the state can cut the budget. Cutting education becomes a vicious cycle, as it reduces the state`s earning potential in the long run, thus ensuring future budget problems.

  7. Profile photo of hatti369
    hatti369 Female 18-29
    88 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 12:27 pm
    This stupid because he was saying that students with enough credits can just skip their senior year. Well, can`t students with enough credits skip their senior year anyway? I mean high school becomes optional after 16 doesn`t it? If you had enough credits, none of this crap would matter
  8. Profile photo of kappamu
    kappamu Female 18-29
    157 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 12:54 pm
    I live in Utah, and I highly doubt this will pass. Chris Buttars is one of the most idiotic senators I`ve ever heard of, and comes up with the stupidest ideas. He tried making it mandatory for store employees to say "Merry Christmas" and make it illegal for them to say anything about other religions. He`s a worthless waste of tax money, and I can`t wait until he`s gone. He`s ridiculous. There`s no way in hell that this idiotic idea of getting rid of the 12th grade will pass. Chris Buttars is a joke!
  9. Profile photo of pmarren
    pmarren Male 40-49
    4575 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 12:55 pm
    Make `em pay for the last year if they want it so bad. Hey then they`ll make even MORE money for the government coffers.
  10. Profile photo of itsallfake
    itsallfake Male 30-39
    474 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 1:00 pm
    His original plan was to skip the 12th grade, but after coming under fire he has back-pedalled to this position which is already in place.

    But if you spin it the right way aying that public school is just socialism at work and its taking tax money away fromt he rich to provide to the poor so that the poor can have the same opportunity as the rich, then you will have DROVES of ignorant people supporting this idea.

  11. Profile photo of edana42
    edana42 Female 50-59
    2509 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 1:10 pm
    Way to keep us in the education race, Utah!
  12. Profile photo of ZacchNasty
    ZacchNasty Male 13-17
    83 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 1:33 pm
    Well, can`t students with enough credits skip their senior year anyway? I mean high school becomes optional after 16 doesn`t it? If you had enough credits, none of this crap would matter

    You can graduate early if you have enough credits and at 16 you have the option to drop out not instantaneously graduate.

    I wouldn`t have minded leaving school after my English and math. It would make saving for college a lot easier.

  13. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 1:37 pm
    YAY! does this mean that teens are paying there way for once L:)
  14. Profile photo of razlem
    razlem Male 13-17
    533 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 1:48 pm
    Isn`t it already optional? Kids can drop out at 16-17.
  15. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 1:53 pm
    Interesting that this idea sprang from the state with the highest consumption of porn per capita. Makes you wonder what them crazy mormons will think of next.
  16. Profile photo of keith2
    keith2 Male 30-39
    2588 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 1:56 pm
    right.. because in these times we need more dumbasses
  17. Profile photo of Arsis
    Arsis Male 18-29
    15 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 2:19 pm
    Chris Buttars is ruining Utah. If they`d stop wasting our tax money on soccer stadiums and the school sports programs we wouldn`t have this mess. It doesn`t help that our legislator Becky Lockheart is married to a lobbyist, and is therefor getting money from the tobacco and coca-cola lobbies... I`m ashamed to live in Utah. The state that was founded on the principle of running away to avoid hostility and chastisement, but still treats anyone different (democrats, mexicans, blacks and gays) like they have the plague.
  18. Profile photo of BenTheBug
    BenTheBug Male 18-29
    1195 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 2:19 pm
    You`re all forgetting something... F*CK UTAH!
  19. Profile photo of Javien
    Javien Male 18-29
    270 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 2:21 pm
    Isn`t it already optional? Kids can drop out at 16-17.

    I think they mean optional while still getting their diploma, not dropping out.

  20. Profile photo of punkipenguin
    punkipenguin Female 18-29
    778 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 2:28 pm
    be honest, did anyone actually learn anything senior year? unless you`re an idiot you have all your required classes and are only taking filler classes to pass the day. it`s a waste. if you don`t have all your required courses, you probably dropped out, will end up dropping out, or will be coming back at least a half year to finish. if they don`t want to be there why waste the money?
  21. Profile photo of green_batman
    green_batman Female 18-29
    728 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 2:44 pm
    punkipenguin: Actually I was in a science and tech program that required that I take extra math and science classes senior year, as well as completing a research project. I found it to be a good use of my time. I know that not everyone is in similar circumstances, but most people can take at least a few worthwhile classes in senior year.
  22. Profile photo of vulture19
    vulture19 Male 30-39
    181 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 2:50 pm
    I made my senior year optional. I turned out OK.
  23. Profile photo of Vhreio
    Vhreio Male 30-39
    506 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 2:58 pm
    The only kids who think this is a good idea are the stupid ones who hate school, and would end up living off the government anyway.
  24. Profile photo of Rick_S
    Rick_S Male 40-49
    3282 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 3:17 pm
    "unless you`re an idiot you have all your required classes and are only taking filler classes to pass the day." In New York, Four years of English and other subjects are required. I don`t think it`s possible to get to the situation you describe without doing summer school, or being a genius.
  25. Profile photo of Rick_S
    Rick_S Male 40-49
    3282 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 3:17 pm
    PS: Yes, I know the article is about Utah, and not New York. I was just saying.
  26. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 3:49 pm
    im doing my senior year now...i can honestly say that there isnt that much of a gain in knowledge and understanding, i would be better fit starting off college now
  27. Profile photo of bordo
    bordo Male 50-59
    907 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 3:49 pm
    This reminds me of the story about how railroads found out that the last car suffered most of the damage. So, somebody suggested they take the last car off before they leave the station. Kids sluff of the last year of school, namely 12th grade. Eliminate it and they`ll sluff off the 11th grade instead.
  28. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 3:51 pm
    ""unless you`re an idiot you have all your required classes and are only taking filler classes to pass the day." In New York, Four years of English and other subjects are required. I don`t think it`s possible to get to the situation you describe without doing summer school, or being a genius. "

    The only credits im missing senior year are econ/gov (half a year each) and english 4. I got a 5 on the AP english language test last year meaning that i completed english 101 and english 102 in college already, im sure i could bypass english 4. And I could take econ/gov online (which is honestly my easiest class this year), and thus i finish junior year.

    My friend did an accelerated program and finished junior year...he has a full ride to MIT now. My thinking is that if you wasted your time before you will continue to waste it. Give more funding towards those who want more education

  29. Profile photo of panth753
    panth753 Female 18-29
    9237 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 3:52 pm
    I hated my senior year.
  30. Profile photo of lee-schizo
    lee-schizo Female 18-29
    296 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 4:12 pm
    NOT dratING COOL RIGHT AS I LEAVE 12TH GRADE THEY dratING DESIDE TO dratING TAKE OUT 12TH GRADE THATS dratING DUMN. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. AND I USE TO GO TO WEST JORDAN HIGH I HATED THAT SKOOL THIS IS SOME BULLpoo! i knew JD...
  31. Profile photo of Skreshavik
    Skreshavik Female 18-29
    1284 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 4:19 pm
    So it`s come to the point of wasting 500 million dollar bombs on four people and a camel is more important than education?

    Good thing this`ll never pass.

  32. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 4:32 pm
    This is actually a VERY good idea.
  33. Profile photo of Dfaulted
    Dfaulted Male 13-17
    1920 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 4:38 pm
    "NOT dratING COOL RIGHT AS I LEAVE 12TH GRADE THEY dratING DESIDE TO dratING TAKE OUT 12TH GRADE THATS dratING DUMN. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. AND I USE TO GO TO WEST JORDAN HIGH I HATED THAT SKOOL THIS IS SOME BULLpoo! i knew JD..."

    With the misspelling of the word school, dumb, and decide, plus the grammar mistakes and the missing ` in that`s(with spell check I might add)it looks like you need school. If you`re already done why bother complaining?

  34. Profile photo of Nidonemo
    Nidonemo Male 18-29
    9308 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 4:40 pm
    "This is actually a VERY good idea."

    Personally I disagree, what do you find good about this idea?

  35. Profile photo of turtlemurtle
    turtlemurtle Female 13-17
    71 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 4:45 pm
    i hate utah, people are so retarded here
  36. Profile photo of Lionhart2
    Lionhart2 Male 40-49
    8306 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 4:53 pm
    > unless you`re an idiot you have all your required classes and are only taking filler classes to pass the day.

    I never scored less than 97% in any subject, and in some cases where classes were held close to each other, I was allowed to set up a mike and listen to one class through an earpiece while attending another. I achieved my HSC (equivalent to your GED) in Grade 7 instead of 10, and had to be gazetted in an Act of Parliament to be allowed to leave school at the age of 14, having completed grade 12 by that time. I am regularly IQ tested by the CSIRO. The last one, 4 years ago at age 40, was 148 - it declines with age; my highest, at 18 yrs, was 171.

    The downside is that I`ve suffered from depression most of my life because there is no challenge in anything.

    And you thought I was just a loud-mouthed Old Fart troll who makes bad jokes on IAB all the time :-)

  37. Profile photo of Nurcowski
    Nurcowski Male 18-29
    264 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 4:55 pm
    let`s just make school optional in general
  38. Profile photo of JimmytheMed
    JimmytheMed Male 18-29
    46 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 4:56 pm
    "Personally I disagree, what do you find good about this idea?"

    What did you do your senior year? Speech? History of rock? Underwater Basket Weaving? No one I know besides calculus majors did anything remotely productive their senior years, and all my friends go/went to MIT. We spent the entire time in the shop building robots because we were legally obliged to be there.

  39. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 4:59 pm
    @Nidonemo absolutely getting rid of 12th is a bad idea. But making it optional is not a bad idea, read it carefully it says:
    "12th grade is optional to those who have acquired all their credits." Why waste the money when you got all the credits you need to graduate? I don`t see the trade off.
  40. Profile photo of sumguyin267
    sumguyin267 Male 18-29
    99 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 5:11 pm
    "be honest, did anyone actually learn anything senior year? unless you`re an idiot you have all your required classes and are only taking filler classes to pass the day. it`s a waste. if you don`t have all your required courses, you probably dropped out, will end up dropping out, or will be coming back at least a half year to finish. if they don`t want to be there why waste the money?"

    Took AP computer science, Calculus and statistics during senior year (Yeah I`m a nerd sue me). I don`t know HOW I would get through first year college without those. XD

  41. Profile photo of yellowsquare
    yellowsquare Female 18-29
    1545 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 5:20 pm
    My best year of learning was definitely senior year. AP English, AP Calc, Anatomy and Physiology, not to mention I qualified for state in Solo and Ensemble.

    Getting rid of senior year is a stupid idea and only encourages slacking off.

  42. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 5:30 pm
    "Getting rid of senior year is a stupid idea and only encourages slacking off."

    No, getting kids to do what they don`t want to do is what allows slacking off in the first place.

  43. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 5:32 pm
    "Personally I disagree, what do you find good about this idea?"

    If 17 year olds don`t work, because they have to go to school, then less things are being produced. Thus damaging the economy. If they are sent to school then that is mostly a waste because most people don`t learn poo in school. If that`s what people want, then that`s what they will choose to pay for.

  44. Profile photo of Evilcupcake
    Evilcupcake Male 30-39
    82 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 5:41 pm
    believe me when I say about 90% of us here in Utah wish Senator Butters would just go away. he has provided us with a few to many headaches.
  45. Profile photo of thedobkins
    thedobkins Male 30-39
    239 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 6:10 pm
    always education that gets cut first. Freaking politicians lining their pockets with what is supposed to go to state funds. Horrible.
  46. Profile photo of Neagle
    Neagle Male 30-39
    1405 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 6:16 pm
    If the demand for labor is low how, does speeding up the process of high school graduation and assumable college graduation help the economy one bit? Unless your only goal is to balance the educational budget and throw the next generation out to dry, then your on to something.
  47. Profile photo of Skreshavik
    Skreshavik Female 18-29
    1284 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 6:19 pm
    Evilcupcake, why haven`t you impeached the SoB =p ?
  48. Profile photo of TheNineXXX
    TheNineXXX Male 18-29
    395 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 6:25 pm
    Probably not a good idea in a time of high unemployment!
  49. Profile photo of hi2pi
    hi2pi Male 30-39
    736 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 6:38 pm
    lol, he`s giving up. watching you in the olympics, i`d say that there are plenty of you yanks that DON`T give up, and that WON`T give up, which cheers me. it`s just a bit frightening that there aren`t enough of you that vote, thus Palin/Bush. not to say that we haven`t generated our share of politico-disasters...
  50. Profile photo of KeePay
    KeePay Male 18-29
    494 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 6:42 pm
    I know a lot of people who had senioritis, but my senior year proved to be essential when I got into college. Although my grades were good enough entering senior year, my first semester grades that year was what really helped boost me into the school I wanted. And my senior year was the only year I took AP courses, and the credit REALLY helped getting classes out of the way freshman year, and it really proved to be a good academic transition year. It would have been jarring to go straight from high school junior to college freshman.

    Cutting out the 12th grade would be a terrible idea. You pretty much damn the hopes of anyone hoping to get into good colleges. There are FAR better ways to fix a debt that screw over the academic and financial hopes of those graduating.

  51. Profile photo of Vindictive
    Vindictive Female 18-29
    1077 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 7:18 pm
    this is so indescribably retarded that commenting on it in detail would just be a waste of words.
  52. Profile photo of Nidonemo
    Nidonemo Male 18-29
    9308 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 7:28 pm
    "@Nidonemo absolutely getting rid of 12th is a bad idea. But making it optional is not a bad idea, read it carefully it says:
    "12th grade is optional to those who have acquired all their credits." Why waste the money when you got all the credits you need to graduate? I don`t see the trade off."

    Okay now I can understand this POV, and to be honest I can agree with it.

  53. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 7:28 pm
    "If the demand for labor is low how, does speeding up the process of high school graduation and assumable college graduation help the economy one bit?"

    It would not help the economy in just one bit. It would help the economy A LOT!
    How can demand for labor be low in the first place? Everyone has to push their own weight. Besides high schools today are just VERY poor investments in human capital. You`re NOT helping people be making them pay and go to schools that hardly teach anything useful in the market.

  54. Profile photo of videogamer
    videogamer Male 18-29
    3016 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 8:27 pm
    "How can demand for labor be low in the first place?"

    I`m glad you asked. It turns out that employers are hesitant to add to their payroll because they have to adhere to a minimum wage, which is steadily increasing. The demand is less, because fewer potential employees are qualified for those earnings. The truth is, there are actually people who are willing to work below that wage, particularly people living on their own.

    IMO, the government needs to stop enforcing the minimum wage. It should be nothing more than a yardstick for employers to follow. If job-seekers aren`t satisfied by the wage a potential boss offers, they`ll keep looking until someone gives it to them. We`re perfectly capable of doing that.

  55. Profile photo of ElSombrero
    ElSombrero Male 13-17
    716 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 8:49 pm
    Because less education is definately what this nation needs!
  56. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 8:57 pm
    I guess it`s just too much to ask of the public school system to provide students with a decent education for 12 whole years.
  57. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 9:18 pm
    Nooo! Please. Not this. The world needs a stable America. This is gonna f*ck things up.
  58. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 9:20 pm
    Oh, and can we get rid of these bots? Bots are the mark of a terrible website.
  59. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 9:29 pm
    @videogamer

    That is a PERFECT reply! It was exactly what I was thinking.

  60. Profile photo of JarvisKnot
    JarvisKnot Male 18-29
    268 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 9:40 pm
    Senator Buttars? Like...a guitar? Or a keytar? But a butt-tar?
    buttarists...
  61. Profile photo of JimmytheMed
    JimmytheMed Male 18-29
    46 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 10:06 pm
    Videogamer: You`re partially wrong. The demand for labor is low for a few reasons, the minimum wage, which is very low in America, has little to do with it. 7.XX is less than 50% of the minimum wage in some countries.We have computers to blame for the low labor needs. THOUSANDS of factory workers per fectory have been replaces by robots. Why hire thousands of workers when you can hire 100 to fix the machines that build the cars or cut the meat? By 2050 there will be very little for you to do if you can`t build a circuit board or program or rewire and android. No, I`m not a technophobe. I have BAs in electrical engineering and IT. Another huge problem is outsourcing. Face it, Americans businessmen have no idea what it means to help out or lower prices or provide more for less. Why hire an American and pay him 7.50/hr when that same 7.50/hr will get you 5 Indians that all work 12 hour days? Also, I love America but it`s a sinking ship. Don`t call me a racist American hater.
  62. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 10:15 pm
    @JimmytheMed

    No, you`re wrong. America has a hard time competing with Indians because our minimum wage is WAY too high. A minimum wage law is an unemployment law. That is, if someone is willing and able to work for $3 an hour, and an employer is willing to pay $3 an hour, the employer will thrown in prison for doing so.

  63. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 10:24 pm
    @JimmytheMed
    We need to get rid of the minimum wage.
    When there are more people in the structure of production, prices fall.
    In this picture the yellow line is minimum wage.
    The rest is self explanatory.
  64. Profile photo of Skyira
    Skyira Female 18-29
    1134 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 10:38 pm
    @AnarchistGod

    i have been a member of IAB since 2006 and never in my IAB life have i seen a person use MS paint to prove their point. you sir made my day.

    but not to say someone else did but thats a first to see. and btw i love the cat drawing xD

  65. Profile photo of JimmytheMed
    JimmytheMed Male 18-29
    46 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 10:42 pm
    AnarchistGod: The minimum wage may be a problem for some companies, I`ll submit to that. Perhaps since where I come from the minimum wage ( we don`t have a minimum wage per-se, but there are guidelines and it can get pretty bad for an employer who chooses to ignore them completely) is more that double the average American minimum wage and no one here is having trouble paying it to their workers I can`t grasp why American employers would have trouble paying what to me is an insultingly low minimum wage. But that`s not the main problem. The problem is 1) People being replaced by machines. 2) American businessmen that are unwilling to sell for a price people can afford and 3) Consumers that won`t buy for a price that allows the supplier to profit. Everyone wants to make or save a quick buck at the expense of another and I wish you guys would get your poo together and meet in the middle so you can stop drating up the rest of our economies.
    Again, <3 America. You guys rock.
  66. Profile photo of JimmytheMed
    JimmytheMed Male 18-29
    46 posts
    February 15, 2010 at 10:45 pm
    AnarchistGod: I just find it hard to believe a country as rich as yours can`t afford to pay what people NEED to live. You can not live off 3$/hr in America unless the price of living dropped dramatically.
    But you have MS Paint graphs AND and MS paint cat, so I`m inclined to be on your side. I have no Graphs.
  67. Profile photo of Skreshavik
    Skreshavik Female 18-29
    1284 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 12:06 am
    Well...what if we go back to the industrial age?
    It`ll be akin to making $0.5 an hour.

    How would we find a happy medium?
    That graph is cute, btw :D

  68. Profile photo of JoexBro
    JoexBro Male 18-29
    546 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 12:33 am
    The sudden buzz over the relative value of senior year stems from a recent proposal by state Sen. Chris Buttars that Utah make a dent in its budget gap by eliminating the 12th grade.

    The notion quickly gained some traction among supporters who agreed with the REPUBLICAN`S assessment that many seniors frittered away their final year of high school, but faced vehement opposition from other quarters, including in his hometown of West Jordan.
    ``
    ``
    a policy associate with the National Conference of State Legislatures. "It`s LEFT lawmakers with very unpopular decisions."

    How did a Replublican draft it, yet liberal lawmakers were blamed for it?


  69. Profile photo of Ria25
    Ria25 Female 18-29
    125 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 12:43 am
    Jimmy, minimum wage varies by state. Most states have a minimum of between $7.00-$8.00.

    Anarchist, the whole graph made absolutely no sense. That was untill I saw the cat, now everything falls into perspective. <3

  70. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 12:44 am
    Hold on AnarchistGod, I`m good at graphs... I`ve even been accused of being an analyst in the past. Why and how exactly does demand decrease as wages increase along the Y axis? Pretty critical to validate your point. BTW, nice cat.
  71. Profile photo of xxPinkxx
    xxPinkxx Female 18-29
    3829 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 12:46 am
    sigh. well nothing surprises me about the american government anymore.
  72. Profile photo of Seastone
    Seastone Female 18-29
    612 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 2:31 am
    Joex, that quote meant it has left them with unpopular decisions, as in their only options left are not good ones, not that Left-wingers have unpopular decisions....
  73. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 4:10 am
    Davy, it doesn`t.

    As wages increase, demand is higher. (Makes sense).
    As wages increase, supply goes down. (Tenuous).
    The more people that are in the work force, the less demand there is. (Totally counter intuitive).
    The more people in the work force, the more supply there is. (Makes sense).

    This is an accurate picture of his point, however I don`t think his point is an accurate picture of reality. (In other words, it`s not a real graph of data, it`s a graph of pretend data).

    For example, here is a graph I made up just now.

    It has no bearing on reality, if it did, I`d join all the flame wars on IAB... wait...

  74. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 6:17 am
    Dear Baalthazaq, davymid, Ria25, JimmytheMed, Skreshavik

    I regret to inform you that you’re all economic illiterates.

    Price Control
    The video was hit by a votebot, so don`t mind the low rating.

    Regards,
    AnarchistGod

  75. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 6:29 am
    Especially Baalthazaq.

    Sorry Baalthazaq, but it’s just true. :-(

  76. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 7:05 am
    Ah, but you still fail to provide actual data. You are assuming that this simplistic model has you covered, minus data.

    1) Minimum wage does not apply to:
    Self Employed.
    Service Workers.
    Farm Workers.

    Thus Minimum wage could arguably boost entrepreneurship, and thus boost employment. Your model does not in any way shape or form take this into account.

    Why?

    Because it has no real data. It was not designed to interpret minimum wage, it never has, it never will.

    2) Unemployment is solely on your graph the gap between supply and demand. This is true only if equilibrium results in 100% employment. It does not.

    Your "unemployment" gap is only "Lost jobs".

    3) Your graph fails to include productivity, training (effectively "employee CAPEX"), minimum wage lowers low ROI employee retention by increasing OPEX and opens up spaces for people who want to work but can`t.

    Out of space, but you get the idea.

  77. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 7:13 am
    Incase you still don`t:
    Basically, I explained the interpretation of the graph. You need to demonstrate how they apply.

    Does it apply to monopolies? No. It fails to account for a worker`s marginal value, and thus is effectively a failure of the market.

    Does it apply to states? No.
    Does it take into account the ability to move between sectors? No.

  78. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 7:18 am
    @Baalthazaq

    "Unemployment is solely on your graph the gap between supply and demand. This is true only if equilibrium results in 100% employment. It does not."

    Yes it does! You have no idea what you are talking about. I don`t even know where to begin with you.

    Unemployment

  79. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 7:34 am
    @Baalthazaq
    "Ah, but you still fail to provide actual data"

    I don`t have to. It amazes me that people don`t understand a simple supply and demand graph.

  80. Profile photo of Skreshavik
    Skreshavik Female 18-29
    1284 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 9:05 am
    I know D:
    Toxin-related garbage is more my thing >.>

    ...Went through and looked at what you said and got it to make sense.
    So, our market would be virtually immune to any hassle (with the exception of free labor) if minimum wage were to drop?

  81. Profile photo of sfcg
    sfcg Male 30-39
    796 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 9:55 am
    Compared to California this is a nothing. California is going to be filled with people that can`t afford college, and if they could they wouldn`t be able to get in anyways. On top of that we`ll be paying off our 20 BILLION dollar deficit for the next three generations (Thanks baby boomers). That is if the legislators can get off their @$$ and get AHNALD to pull his head out of his rectum.
  82. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 11:08 am
    Why don`t they cut non vital programs like sports instead of a year off or beter yet get rid of a bunch of the useless politicians. Schools for learning not playing sports.
  83. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 12:36 pm
    "So, our market would be virtually immune to any hassle (with the exception of free labor) if minimum wage were to drop?"

    No. The free market is not perfect. Just like evolution is not perfect.
    However the free market and evolution both have something in common. They work in a bottom up manner. Unlike a god and a state that work in a top down manner.

    I became an atheist around the same time I was introduced to evolution.

    I became an anarchist around the same time I was introduced to the free market.

  84. Profile photo of SomeShoes
    SomeShoes Male 13-17
    2056 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 4:25 pm
    ok, are you serial?
  85. Profile photo of verinon
    verinon Male 18-29
    335 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 8:05 pm
    Those idiots are under the impression that they will be FORCED to skip senior year, when in fact it says plainy it would be OPTIONAL for people who have completed the required credits early. If I had finished my credits that early in high school, I would have skipped senior year for sure. High school sucks ass.
    Then again, I would never set foot in Utah, so...
  86. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 8:16 pm
    It`s not about understanding a supply and demand graph, it is about oversimplifying a more complex system with a simple one.

    "I don`t need to provide data".

    Yes, you need to demonstrate that your supply and demand graph (never designed for Wages, not taking into account all factors, counter intuitively applied to minimum wage) still holds true.

    Which is why I said, in my very first post, that is was a "real graph" (this was before you pretended I didn`t recognize the graph) "with pretend data" (because there is little to no evidence the minimum wage has that effect).

  87. Profile photo of lockedup
    lockedup Female 18-29
    299 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 8:39 pm
    lol, I dropped out of high school halfway through my junior year. I was failing all my classes because I couldn`t be bothered to show up. I had my G. E. D. and was signed up for college in a month. I`m now finishing my B. S. in Mathematics and getting ready to start grad school. My opinion on high school? Get out as soon as possible.
  88. Profile photo of Skreshavik
    Skreshavik Female 18-29
    1284 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 9:17 pm
    Hm...So, the real issue would be to drop minimum wage laws?
    Would you suggest this is a viable option nationally, or just certain areas? The problem here in CO seems to be too many people and not enough hours >.>
  89. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 10:27 pm
    Here is a graph with real data.
    Sources:
    Minimum Wages.
    Unemployment.

    Countries with unavailable data have been removed.

    All figures have been adjusted to account for only the minimum wage salary, and countries with no state set minimum wage (Sweden for example) have had their "monthly wage" figure replaced with 0.

    What you should expect to see, according to Anarchist, is the opposite of this:

    Countries with minimum wages have higher employment rates than those without. This does not mean there is causation, but it does mean Mr. Anarchist has some explaining to do.

    His theory does not match reality.

  90. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 10:34 pm
    Again, I can`t stress this enough, the graph I provided should not be taken as proof that the minimum wage impacts employment positively (though it could be taken as evidence).

    I was merely seeking to demonstrate that a market is much more complex than it is being suggested thus far.

    Taking away minimum wage would in my opinion not impact employment greatly, however would impact quality of life significantly for a lot of people, and thus, is a bad idea for a government to implement without other measures in place to compensate.

    Measures which are expensive and time consuming to get right and implement.

  91. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 10:39 pm
    "His theory does not match reality."
    Yes it does. The problem is barriers to entry.
  92. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 10:42 pm
    "Which is why I said, in my very first post, that is was a "real graph" (this was before you pretended I didn`t recognize the graph) "with pretend data" (because there is little to no evidence the minimum wage has that effect)."

    YOU’RE A LIAR!!! You NEVER said that it was a real graph. This is what actually said “It was not designed to interpret minimum wage, it never has, it never will.” Also I did NOT provide “pretend data” because there is NO data that needs to be provided.

  93. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 11:22 pm
    Did you know that counter intuitively was applied to a flat Earth?
  94. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 11:22 pm
    @Baalthazaq
    "It`s not about understanding a supply and demand graph, it is about oversimplifying a more complex system with a simple one."
    No it`s not.
    "Yes, you need to demonstrate that your supply and demand graph (never designed for Wages,not taking into account all factors, counter intuitively applied to minimum wage) still holds true."
    It CAN be used for wages. If there more people able to work(higher supply), then the supply line shifts to the right which in turn lowers wages (NO DATA NEEDED FOR THIS TO BE TURE).
    The more labor that needs to be done(higher demand), then the demand line shifts to the right which in turn increases wages(NO DATA NEEDED FOR THIS TO BE TURE).
    And vis-verse. Same concept applies if it was the price of product X instead of wages.
    There`s supply(workers) and demand(stuff that needs to get done though labor) There`s ALL your factors need to explain wages.
  95. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 11:42 pm
    I refer you to my earlier graph, and thank you for your contribution to my penis size. I just want to say I appreciate the sacrifices you are making to your own. (NO DATA IS NEEDED FOR THIS TO BE TURE).

    Again, if you have an explanation for why reality disagrees with you, I`d love to hear it.

    I`d especially love to hear how your graph (which is "not oversimplified", and therefore must contain all major factors) does not accurately map reality.

    "These are all the factors needed".
    No.
    They are not.

  96. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 11:47 pm
    You can`t just replace supply and demand with Angry Disagreers and Baal. You know that. I never heard of the Angry Disagreers and Baal graph.

    I told you that barriers to entry are to blame.

    It accurately shows WAGES.Ad hominem

  97. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 16, 2010 at 11:51 pm
    "Again, if you have an explanation for why reality disagrees with you, I`d love to hear it."

    More stuff = lower price.
    Less stuff = higher price.

    What don`t you understand?

  98. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 17, 2010 at 12:00 am
    Just for fun.


  99. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 17, 2010 at 12:01 am
    Let me quickly explain what an Ad Hominem is:
    "I regret to inform you that you’re all economic illiterates".

    That. Attacking the person instead of the argument. Literally translated to "Against the man".

    Anything else?

    Unless you can demonstrate that barriers to entry cause the graph to skew in the opposite direction of your proposal, you need to come up with something else.

  100. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 17, 2010 at 12:05 am
    Barriers to entry limit competition. Therefore limit the supply of workers.

    We should continue this. I have to go to bed now.


  101. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 17, 2010 at 12:06 am
    Incidentally, the graph you posted just for fun, suggests that *MY* penis size grows the more *ANYONE* disagrees with you.

    Saying as I disagree with you, your graph suggests I have two penises; One large and one small.

    I`d suggest you revise your knowledge of graphs and try again.

  102. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 17, 2010 at 12:09 am
    Actually your graph makes no sense and I`m making fun of you for it.
  103. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 17, 2010 at 12:13 am
    First you say "I refer you to my earlier graph, and thank you for your contribution to my penis size."

    Then I change the name to mine and then you say "Incidentally, the graph you posted just for fun, suggests that *MY* penis size grows the more *ANYONE* disagrees with you.
    Saying as I disagree with you, your graph suggests I have two penises; One large and one small."

    So which is it?

  104. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 17, 2010 at 12:14 am
    "Barriers to entry limit supply of workers".

    Ok. According to you this drives salaries up and therefore drives up unemployment.

    You are thus suggesting that higher unemployment countries have more barriers to entry, and that BY COINCIDENCE these are the countries without minimum wages enough to skew it by at least 5%?

    Also, higher salaries occurring naturally would skip the minimum wage in most cases, placing the equilibrium point above minimum wage, and thus causing the minimum wage to have (even according to your video) no impact at all.

  105. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 17, 2010 at 12:17 am
    "So which is it"

    Both.
    My graph says "I have a big penis, you have a little one".
    Your graph says "I have a big penis, I have a little one".

    You only changed the name on the axis, and didn`t change the name on the actual series data. (my name appears twice on the original graph, you changed it once)

    Not ironically, this is the exact same mistake you are making with your earlier graph, assuming that it applies in all circumstances just by changing the axes.

    It doesn`t. You need to change the series data too.

  106. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 17, 2010 at 12:29 am
    oops you`re right. I had no idea what the hell Baal was.

    Anyway I`ll get back to you about barriers.

    Here I fixed it.

  107. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 17, 2010 at 12:38 am
    When the state enforces a barrier then people just don`t disappear. They for the most part become unemployed. If there was no barriers or price cap(minimum wage) the market would lean to full employment. If the supply is limited then wages go up which is a bad thing if there are people who are able to work but can`t because of the barrier.

    On side note know that full employment is NOT everyone having a job. Full employment mean everyone who is able to work and wants to work has a job.

  108. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    February 17, 2010 at 3:53 am
    Slowly, you`re agreeing with my original points:

    Some quotes from you:
    "On side note know that full employment is NOT everyone having a job.
    Full employment mean everyone who is able to work and wants to work has a job".


    My quote: "Unemployment is solely on your graph the gap between supply and demand. This is true only if equilibrium results in 100% employment. It does not".

    Your quote: "Yes it does".

    Now, what does that mean? That means that equilibrium does not result in 100% employment, unless you sandwich anyone "unwilling to work for the equilibrium price" as "everyone unwilling to work".

    That`s not correct. It`s just everyone unwilling to work for equilibrium price. When you factor in the inelastic demand of many products and services, minimum wage boosts actual employment, by bringing several people back in to the "willing to work" category.

  109. Profile photo of Skreshavik
    Skreshavik Female 18-29
    1284 posts
    February 17, 2010 at 8:48 am
    =O

    Graph wars >.>...

  110. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 17, 2010 at 10:03 am
    @Baalthazaq
    "Now, what does that mean? That means that equilibrium does not result in 100% employment, unless you sandwich anyone "unwilling to work for the equilibrium price" as "everyone unwilling to work".

    "That`s not correct. It`s just everyone unwilling to work for equilibrium price. When you factor in the inelastic demand of many products and services, minimum wage boosts actual employment, by bringing several people back in to the "willing to work" category."

    This shows a very poor understanding of the supply and demand graph. Everyone is willing to work at the equilibrium! If they don`t then BY DIFINITION it`s not equilibrium. Understand what the equilibrium means before you post such comments.

  111. Profile photo of PaintedNInja
    PaintedNInja Male 18-29
    96 posts
    February 19, 2010 at 1:19 am
    come on people are you really that stupid? The graph says there is always a "penis size" and there is always "how angrily people disagree with anarchistgod" (a little full of yourself? i assure you you are neither of the things in your handle). There isn`t two supplies and two demands. I dropped out of high school and failed economics (twice) and still managed to figure that out (the two lines are different colors). Before anyone tells me I`m stupid let me add Net supply and Net demand. There is one net supply and one net demand. Also (the two colors thing was a joke) were is the key what does the red line represent; what does the yellow line represent? (oh no a semicolon what does it mean?) i agree with locked up i started college 3 days after my 18th birthday w/o (without) a GED. If i stayed in school it would have been long after. But high school is very important to get a "real job", I don`t have one my degree is culinary arts, and High school is an im
  112. Profile photo of PaintedNInja
    PaintedNInja Male 18-29
    96 posts
    February 19, 2010 at 1:21 am
    portant part of af that if you plan to go to a non community college
  113. Profile photo of PaintedNInja
    PaintedNInja Male 18-29
    96 posts
    February 19, 2010 at 1:30 am
    ooh i looked at it again, now that i found the "key" (you make us educated people look stupid with your lack of knowing how to draw a graph) I doubt that my penis size is directly proportional to disagreeing with your graph or that your penis size is directly proportional to the number of people that disagree with you. Do you have any scientific evidence to back it up? Pictures of your penis getting bigger and people stating they disagree with you would suffice. Or publication of your findings in a peer journal?
  114. Profile photo of PaintedNInja
    PaintedNInja Male 18-29
    96 posts
    February 19, 2010 at 1:38 am
    one more thing grow up, get over yourself, and find a job, nobody cares about your package
  115. Profile photo of PaintedNInja
    PaintedNInja Male 18-29
    96 posts
    February 19, 2010 at 1:52 am
    last time, i promise, Baalthazaq whats the x and the y in your fancy graph? does it have to do with unemployment and penis size? Assuming x represents "penis size" were are the numbers? i will assume steps of 10 million penis units (thats a lot of dick, i think?). You know i couldn`t just throw smart at the other dude and not screw with you a little bit
  116. Profile photo of AnarchistGod
    AnarchistGod Male 70 & Over
    893 posts
    February 19, 2010 at 8:51 am
    No one cares about the penis size graph.
    We`re talking about the wage graph.
  117. Profile photo of PaintedNInja
    PaintedNInja Male 18-29
    96 posts
    February 19, 2010 at 10:56 am
    well now I`m confused

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