The Bible Gets Beaten At Its Own Game Again [Pic]

Submitted by: fancylad 7 years ago in Funny

See, you dig around the Bible long enough, you can contradict everything in it.
There are 238 comments:
Male 134
I`ve seen this chick a few times on the Texas State campus.
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Male 12,365
There is another possible answer to bumbleBB`s questions:

A couple of millenia ago, God starting watching Star Trek and decided that the Prime Directive was a good idea.

Or another answer:

God was the representative of an alien organisation that was conducting experiments on early humans or simply using them as slaves. Adam and Eve were the ones curious and intelligent enough to seek knowledge, which is what God was ordering humans not to seek, and fled the prison camp as a result. Nutjob prison camp guard dealing with what they regarded as inferior animals would explain a lot about the god of the OT.

Ugly answers, but they make sense.

Or, more being more charitable towards this god I don`t believe in anyway:

Reality is a testing ground to determine the balance of good and evil. Both sides agreed to not interfere with the stuff to be tested (i.e. us). Satan cheats, of course, but God doesn`t.

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Male 12,365
[quote]Agreed Angillion...there is evidence of settling around the Nile at about 5000bc...that would be the beginning of Egyptian civilization, which I`m sure we`re all aware of happened for a long time BC. They had developed irrigation at about 3000bc, so it seems that settlement however rudimentary would have begun long before that.[/quote]

It seems to have been widespread by 3000BC. For example, a village of well built stone houses with a sewerage system and flushing toilets (primitive but apparently functional) has been found in Britain and dated to 3200BC. A storm in 1850 uncovered it - who knows what else is still covered elsewhere? Britain is hardly a prime contender for earliest civilisation - the ultra-fertile flood plains of massive slow-moving rivers are the most logical place for the start of farming and thus settlement.

I was surprised to find that the oldest known city is in Turkey. I thought it would be in the Tigris-Euphrates area, in what was Mesopotamia.

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Male 8,300
> Suicism
> If the shoe were on the other foot you would have spammed me right now

Spammed? You mean banned? Not likely, keep it under your hat (this is a Yesterday post after all, hopefully won`t get read much) but the only people I ban are:

1. Asiaspammers - perm.
2. Nasty words about certain orientations - temp.
3. Blatant racism - perm or temp depending on history.

But they, weird things happen at IAB all the time - just a few days ago we had a message from a certain member who wanted us to ban him/her, because he/she didn`t have the willpower to stay away from the site by him/herself. Chalk that one up in the `weird poop` ledger I say.

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Male 3,631
You`re damn right lionhart. If the shoe were on the other foot you would have spammed me right now.
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Male 173
Faith comes from the heart, not from the mind.
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Female 1,112
But if God created everything, then he created the dangers "outside", and thus wanted us to know pain and suffering.

I know I`m never going to convince you it`s all nothing, but as long as the answer appeal to me more like the elusive non-sequiturs of people trying to create a faith you can`t pin down, then i will never be a believer.

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Male 8,300
I don`t normally post this much on any topic, but we all have a basic knowledge of the GofE story. But it occurs to me there is a lot more there than we usually see.

For starters, God physically lived, or at least visited, Eden. There was no corruption, death, evil, etc. there. There was one Tree, which Adam & Eve were quite clearly warned about. Eating from it gave them understanding of these bad things, and would make them mortal. Speculation: Maybe God Himself had to eat from that Tree occasionally to "keep up" His powers and knowledge? An interesting thought.

Either way, the two guests in Eden were told to leave it alone, and they didn`t. Interesting: God didn`t `punish` them as we often think (although he did evict them from Eden for it); eating the fruit was what did it. And they were warned beforehand that it would.

So when someone says "Why did God punish mankind because of Adam?", the point is, Adam did it to himself.

Just a thought.

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Male 8,300
Of course, THEN you get into the whole issue of "IF God knew EVERYTHING before He created it that was going to happen, then he knew Adam and Eve would eat from the TOKOGAE, so how can He punish them for it if they were pre-destined to do it anyway? For that matter, how come He created Satan if He knew beforehand what Satan would do?

There are no answers to these questions, only speculation. There are analogies you can think of, like being a parent: "(a) I can keep my kid inside, protected, never hurt but never knowing fun, or (b) I can let him play outside and know both" but none of them really answer the fundamental question. That`s why the only REAL answer can be "We don`t think the same way or have the same values as God does".

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Male 8,300
> bumbleBB
> why would he not create us to be in his company. Pose no threat of evil above us, make himself apparent

Adam and Eve walked with God (physically) in Eden; he was their companion/friend and obviously `apparent`. A tree stood there which Man was forbidden to eat from because its fruit would make him "like us" said God, knowing good from evil, but they ate from it anyway, or so the legend goes.

So all these things you say "why did God, why would He, how come He...?", WERE in the beginning, and then were not any more, because of that event.

[quote]"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Neither are your ways My ways", declares the Lord. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.” Isaiah 55:8[/quote]

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Female 1,112
although far be it from me to tell a grown man who clearly has had a lot of discussion on the matter that he is naive. I mean by your own admission you believe despite logic. And all of your points make that clear. So kudos on your stamina and staying the course.
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Female 1,112
Lionhart I think you`re being naive here. I understand that the entire premise is blind faith, but come on. God loves us, god creates us, so that we can endure suffering to prove that we love him, while his proof that he loves us is that he won`t damn us if we follow his often arbitrary rules.

If God were what you say, then why would he not create us to be in his company. Pose no threat of evil above us, make himself apparent, and I`m sure we would all believe and uphold him. Why is it that in the history of the bible he provided so much proof of himself to so many, but now there is nothing? Why were we once deserving of proof that he existed, proof of his awesome power with his name attached to it, and now we are left to our own imaginings? God must truly be torturous, because, and I don`t mean to sound egotistical here, I am a good person and I can`t find the faith.

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Male 8,300
> bumbleBB
> only if the def of GOD is omnipotence, which it isn`t

Yes it is. "God" either doesn`t exist at all, OR is the allpowerful, allknowing, allpresent Being who created the Universe. That`s the very definition of God.

You`re still stuck on YOUR (or Epicurus`) definition of malevolent, justice, fair, right, wrong, etc. These human definitions can`t apply to a Supreme Being; it has its own standards of right and wrong, not ours.

Consider for a second how what is absolutely abhorrent behavior in peacetime, suddenly becomes `right` in wartime. Not only right, we give people medals for murder! Because the definition of right and wrong changes, when we`re at war.

I could go into examples like parents smacking their children for their own good, etc, but the simple answer to the age-old question "Why does God allow evil?" is simply "Because he knows more than us."

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Female 1,112
Agreed Angillion...there is evidence of settling around the Nile at about 5000bc...that would be the beginning of Egyptian civilization, which I`m sure we`re all aware of happened for a long time BC. They had developed irrigation at about 3000bc, so it seems that settlement however rudimentary would have begun long before that.
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Male 12,365
[quote]And humans, however long they roamed around, started living together in villages/cities around 3000BC.[/quote]

I agree that it`s not surprising that town and cities are usually where they`re described as being, but I`m disputing the date. Rather surprisingly, human settlements go back further than 3000 BC. Catal Huyuk is the oldest known city and has been dated to ~6000BC. It`s likely that there were villages before that - Catal Huyuk was a large settlement with stone buildings and thousands of inhabitants, which is very unlikely to have been the first human settlement. It`s far more likely that there was something in between semi-nomadic hunting/gathering and city-building.

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Female 1,112
"Since by DEFINITION ... have power over his clay?""

I`m confused by this.

I`m going to break it down by my understanding.

You`re right the first part negates itself, but only if the def of GOD is omnipotence, which it isn`t.

If God is able to stop evil, then he must choose not to, making him malevolent. Although I agree that the conclusion of malevolence is somewhat subjective and not absolute, it does stand to reason that a compassionate God would choose to stop evil.

If he could stop evil and wanted to, then why would there be evil. Pretty obvious, and the only real question.

at the end we are back where we began only vice versa.

So I disagree that it is only a statement. I think it does ask a question, and I don`t think the potter having control over his clay has much to do with it.

I understand the implied statement that God is malevolent as the logical conclusion.

So is God malevolent?
If not, then why does evil exist under a comp

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Male 12,365
[quote]BumbleBB, this is not interpretation! I`m trying to explain the difference between Jewish culture two thousand years ago and culture today with information from historical scholars and biblical scholars.[/quote]

You`re trying to pass off a reference to all women and only women as a reference to uneducated people or a reference to women who were followers of a different religion. Not only is that interpretation, it`s backwards interpretation that doesn`t make sense. You`re starting with a conclusion and trying to find a way of making the evidence fit it even though it obviously doesn`t. Your interpretation is like claiming that a sign stating "No-one from the USA allowed in here" means that people with big cars are not allowed in there.

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Male 8,300
> Elle1970
> never seen a logical counter-argument to Epicurus` argument

I`m sure you`ve heard the old logic question "What happens when an immovable object is met by an irresistible force?"

For those who never worked it out, its the question itself which is at fault. An `immovable object` is one that cannot be moved, by any force anywhere; therefore, in a universe where one exists, there cannot be such a thing as an irresistible force.

And vice versa.

Since by DEFINITION God IS omnipotent, the first part of the question is meaningless. Hence Epicurus` "question" actually comes down a statement calling God malevolent, based on the questioner`s definition of the word. Since God IS all-powerful, His definition of what is good, bad, evil, malevolent, etc are unlikely to be the same as ours. Epicurus` question is answered by one simple Bible verse: "Doesn`t the potter have power over his clay?"

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Female 4,028
Ahaha! Awesome.
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Female 1,112
Oh wow elle. That is beautiful. thank you.
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Female 4
I`ve still never seen a logical counter-argument to Epicurus` argument against an all-knowing, all-powerful god (and it`s been around over 2,000 years so it`s not like no one has had time). To quote "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
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Female 1,112
Don`t shoot the messenger. Just because whoever posted it is fallacious is no reason to attack them. I mean it`s not like they ever claimed perfection and demanded your unquestioning devotion.
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Male 689
HAHAHAHAHA that guys face is perfect

`See, you dig around the Bible long enough, you can find something worth taking out of context to piss people off`

fix`d.

also whoever posted this doesn`t understand the word `contradiction`

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Female 1,112
LtFurpie, I never forget, I`m just quoting the followers.
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Male 503
God 101 - don`t believe and preach what you read, oh by the way Christians taste funny
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Male 1,013
Don`t forget Bumblebb, the bible is not the word of god. it`s the interpretations of man depicting this supposed murderous insecure megolomaniacal deity.
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Female 1,112
So, some people are again saying that this isn`t the word of God, while some portions of the bible clearly state that all diction in the bible are either direct quotes of God or inspired by his spirit meaning that message is his. If God is fair and all knowing how can it be that he would inspire Paul to converse with such sexism?

Cracka said that no where else in the book does it mention that women ought to be silent, however as someone before quoted, when God created Eve she was intended to be subservient to Adam, indicating that men were held in higher regard.

"They might have worked perfectly for his time and the society he lived in, but times change."

So because something that was accepted in times past, but is not now, Christians reserve the right to reexamine and interpret or negate scripture based on it`s cultural relevance? And yet scripture which is said to be either Gods word directly or inspired by his spirit is supposed to be infallible.

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Male 440
lol thats awsome, i kinda agree with that.
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Male 72
Ezekiel 23:20 (New International Version)

20: There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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Male 116
@daverazor: of course, we shouldn`t take someone who nowadays would be considered a nazi for his word when it`s about violence and ignorance. Oh yeah, Luther was an antisemite, big time.
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Male 2,440
lol at the Christians who take some of the unpleasant rules of the Bible as "not from God" and yet still see homosexuals as evil. Just sayin`.
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Male 198
A main stepping stone for Luther when he started the reformation was not to cherry pick Bible passages and use them like either of the folks have done in this picture. He knew that such an action would lead to violence and ignorance. It`s a whole book with a large message, not a series of soundbites to be used for personal gain.
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Female 3,574
Also, you realize the verse pictured refers only to women in church (It basically means Paul thinks women should not teach men in church), not like everyday outside?
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Female 3,574
Many Christians believe that Paul`s writings are cultural. They might have worked perfectly for his time and the society he lived in, but times change. It could have been divinely inspired, but doesn`t mean it holds true always and forever.
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Male 17,511
"The Bible says that everything in it is the word of God, and useful as moral guidance."

Given that there are no other scriptures that command "women to be silent" at all times, In fact there are scriptures that support women teaching.

These are Paul`s letters to Timothy and he specifically says "I do not..." Not God does not.
That`s a very big difference there.

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Male 4,290
[quote]First off, Let`s get it clear that this is Paul`s advice to Timothy on how to run a church.

This is NOT a commandment by God or Jesus. [/quote]

Incorrect.

2 Peter 1:20-21 - "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

2 Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

The Bible says that everything in it is the word of God, and useful as moral guidance.

Unless you reject the writings of the Apostles as fallible (in which case the Jesus story is potentially wrong, which would be a theological nightmare), you have no grounds on which to dismiss this because Jesus/God didn`t directly say it.

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Male 256
you are really stupid IAB you always misquote the Bible or try to make it say something it doesn`t. This is a quote taken out of context and understanding. Please leave the Bible alone IAB please you only make yourself look bad.
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Male 17,511
First off, Let`s get it clear that this is Paul`s advice to Timothy on how to run a church.

This is NOT a commandment by God or Jesus.

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Male 8,300
> Harkannin
> I am not above nor below, I take a firm, but flexible place in the middle and observe the amusing world working around me

Wow dude, you ought to use a yingyang as an avatar with that attitude. Oh wait...

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Male 175
@bumbleBB no need to apologize, it`s human nature. I am not above nor below, I take a firm, but flexible place in the middle and observe the amusing world working around me.
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Male 505
Haha, this was at the University of Arizona, where I go. This lady is the wife of a "Brother Jed Smock". He`s been traveling the country since the 70s telling everybody that they`re going to hell. They were on campus all last week; the "Skeptic`s Club" on campus even had a Brother Jed bingo game going. Good fun was had by all!
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Male 9,305
"why does the bible contradict itself so much its ridiculous"

Well given that it was compiled over a long period of time, changed throughout history to suit the ideas and needs of the people in power, and then translated from different languages, yeah, that can royally screw something up quite easily.

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Male 316
A bag might accomplish two things.
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Male 496
Just to say something that I think is pretty freaking amzing as well.

In the near future, Humans will move from being Homo-sapiens to Homo-evolotis. The meaning of Homo-evolotis is a "species that takes direct control over their evolution, and the evolution off others". We are nearly there folks, and anything is possible.

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Male 496
Lionhart, i`ve been reading your posts and I have to say I am intrigued and glad. I`m intrigued because someone that has clearly put alot of time and effort into both his work and his beliefs has made some points that I have not heard made before, and i`m glad because it is truly refreshing to see a christian having an intellectual debate on the internet no less! :)

I am kind of like you in that I do alot of charity work because I believe in helping people that need and want it. I actually helped a church (in england) because they were the only local community that were trying to make a difference. The fact that I am an atheist didn`t bother them, and nor should it. People are entitled to their beliefs but its the difference we can make to people that need it that counts. I disagree with the catholic church almost completely. The pope is an abboration, an unrequired sink hole of resources that could be used to actually make a differene to the people that need it the most.

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Male 79
it`s not the bible contradicting itself but some of the believers doing it.
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Female 1,112
Bobs got a point. My point exactly actually.
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Male 243
why does the bible contradict itself so much its ridiculous
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Male 2,748
hahahaha!!! that`s freakin hilarious!!! lololol, ah Christianity, how stupid you are...
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Female 1,112
BUT, That is the first answer I`ve gotten on that question.
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Male 21
lol owned.
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Female 1,112
Still don`t get it. Sounds like a line to cover their butts to me!
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Male 4,290
[quote]But the Bible says that all creatures have a knowledge of God just from seeing the world and drawing breath, and stand condemned because of it.[/quote]
Funny how so many of them have never heard of him when you ask then, isn`t it.
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Male 8,300
> bumbleBB
> the fact that the idea of God and Christianity isn`t worldwide, and I can`t understand how some people got left out

Unfortunately for you, the Bible shoots you down in flames there. Early on, I used to say "how fair is it, that tribes in Africa who never heard of Jesus will go to Hell for not believing?" But the Bible says that all creatures have a knowledge of God just from seeing the world and drawing breath, and stand condemned because of it. That`s Biblical justice for you.

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Female 1,112
I can`t understand it, but hey I respect it.
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Male 8,300
As to life, I started working for a Particular Baptist (Calvinist) organisation when I was 18, which ran a church and commercial press. I saw hundreds of students go through with virtually no education given, and staff whose lives were ruined whenever they questioned the family in charge, who were, and still are, running the organisation for the sole purpose of embezzling money the government pays to educate kids, and applying it to overseas trips, personal timeshares and fancy vehicles and houses for themselves. My entire family were kicked out of the place when we tried to get the greedy thieving arrogant bastard in charge to stop his thieving, having discovered they took over $650,000 in the 6 years since his father died from the coffers.

As a result, my faith in GOD hasn`t wavered, but I will never trust CHURCHES ever again.

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Female 1,112
That is insane Lion! You know I might have been just like you if it weren`t for the fact that the idea of God and Christianity isn`t worldwide, and I can`t understand how some people got left out.
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Male 8,300
> bumbleBB
> Lion, can you clarify your beliefs for me?

Sure. I`m an intelligent person who Believes despite the reasoning power of his own considerable intellect and despite the body of physical evidence to the contrary, in the absolute sovereignty of God, the creation of everything by Him, and the logical premise that if God is truly OMNIpotent, OMNIscient and OMNIpresent (ALL powerful, knowing, and everywhere), then there must by logical exclusion be no free will and that all things were ordained from before Creation. This incidentally is exactly what the Bible has always claimed, despite numerous modern reinterpretations.

So in a nutshell, it don`t make no sense to believe, but I do anyway, which is why its called "faith".

And don`t listen to a word Davy says, how can you trust someone who thinks the Earth is millions of years old and oil was made by crushing plants? I mean c`mon!

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Female 1,112
ok I`ll refrain lol
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Male 12,138
vv Just don`t get him started the subjects of Catholicism and/or Young-Earth Creationism...
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Female 1,112
haha oh it can`t be that bad
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Male 12,138
[quote]Lion, can you clarify your beliefs for me?[/quote]

Oh, you had to go ask *ducks in futile attempt to hide from the batpoo*

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Male 12,138
[quote]There are very, very few cities mentioned in the Bible that haven`t been discovered now, and basically the Bible has been the map to finding them. As to whether that makes the Bible the Word of God or just a damn handy history book, I leave that to you to determine. But the simple answer is "Yes", the Bible is and was right about all the ancient places it mentioned.[/quote]

Fair enough point Lion. Broadly agreed with minor edit: swap out "history book" for "geography book" and I`ll give you that one.

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Female 1,112
Lion, can you clarify your beliefs for me?
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Male 8,300
> almightybob1
> Tell me Lion, would you trust such a bridge?

Yeah good point, that`d be as stupid as, say, looking at 50m high walls of water either side of you and walking across the dry seabed because God said he`d protect you to the other side. Or killing your own son because God said to. Or stepping out of a boat in the middle of a storm and walking over to Jesus on the water. Or expecting 3 loaves and 5 fishes to feed 5000 people. Or...

It`s called faith. If God said "walk on that bridge and be safe", that`d be alright with me.

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Female 1,112
I agree to some degree Bobby, but I think if your gonna start claiming these finds as proof all attempts to confirm or deny it are within reason. Although you`re right, they could neither confirm nor deny connection, however, even a large portion of the theological community denies this tomb as being that of Jesus, simply because it`s implications contradict many aspects of the biblical word.
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Male 8,300
On the subject of Biblical Archeology, just to clear that up because there seems to be considerable confusion there:

The Bible, and other ancient religious texts, are essentially THE basis for field of archeology. There are very, very few cities mentioned in the Bible that haven`t been discovered now, and basically the Bible has been the map to finding them. As to whether that makes the Bible the Word of God or just a damn handy history book, I leave that to you to determine. But the simple answer is "Yes", the Bible is and was right about all the ancient places it mentioned.

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Male 8,300
Which is hardly surprising (religion aside) given the OT was written from 1500BC to 500BC and the NT from 100AD to 400AD (very roughly); and the OT was essentially passed on orally at least 1000 years before that. And humans, however long they roamed around, started living together in villages/cities around 3000BC. You`d expect a fair degree of geographic accuracy in something which was essentially the first putting-down-on-paper of human knowledge so far.
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Male 4,290
[quote]Bob (hey bob!) and there was no DNA evidence supporting the claims (linking Jesus to mary and their children)[/quote]

:D
To be fair, I wouldn`t demand DNA evidence on anything that supposedly occurred 2,000 years ago. That`s unnecessarily stringent.

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Female 1,112
"now that have their evidence is the tomb Jesus was buried in was owned by a man named Joeseph of Arimathea, a Jewish leader on the council that convicted him"

This has basically been dispelled, because Jesus and Joseph were names as common as Dan and Bob (hey bob!) and there was no DNA evidence supporting the claims (linking Jesus to mary and their children)

It was mainly seen as hype for a documentary made by filmmakers with an agenda...mainly selling their flick.

For future reference, there are a few of us on IAB who demand reputable sources as in any good debate. Be forewarned.

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Female 5,139
I meant the edit xD
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Male 4,290
[quote]that`s like saying "This bridge is totally solid and will hold any weight whatsoever, except when it doesn`t"[/quote]

Tell me Lion, would you trust such a bridge?

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Male 12,138
vv Although I`m obviously joking Alice, the worrying thing is that the only part I made up was the last line...
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Female 5,139
Saw what you did there, davy...¬.¬
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Male 12,138

"When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. For the Lord your God doth decree, ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US"
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Male 12,138
[quote]Damn Davy, I didn`t realize you were on the Committee working on the King James Version - 21st Century Edition. Can`t wait to read more.[/quote]

Lion mate, you should see my 21st Century re-translation of the Old Testament. I`m particularly proud of my translation of Deuteronomy 20, 10-17:

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Male 19
BB, I would really have preferred to find those direct sources when I said that, but on a thread like this, I really didn`t realize I`d need to get that prepared. Examples I can think of right now that have their evidence is the tomb Jesus was buried in was owned by a man named Joeseph of Arimathea, a Jewish leader on the council that convicted him. The grounds where this council met and did their duties, under the leadership of a guy named Caiaphas, has been discovered. Nobody denied Jesus` tomb was empty after he was buried in it, but there was discrepancy between believers and enemies as to how his body wasn`t in it anymore. I can`t nail direct sources, and I`m sorry I can`t, I don`t remember them at the moment. What were the things you examined and debunked as exaggeration or misleading?
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Male 4,290
[quote]You`re much too smart to believe that drivel. Could that be your ego talking? Life thrives wherever it can. The building blocks that made us were scattered all over the universe.[/quote]

Eh? Yes, life thrives where it can. But it will not always reach the level of sentience necessary to achieve self-awareness. Look at how many species of animals exist or have existed on our planet (countless millions) and how many have the necessary intelligence to realise how scarce life is in the universe (one, homo sapiens).

Of course there could be life elsewhere in the universe, but even if there is, it might not be intelligent enough to realise how rare life in the universe is. We might be the only species that ever achieves that level of knowledge. That was my point.

If you call pride in the achievements of my species "ego", then yes, that`s exactly what it is.

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Female 1,112
I don`t like how pointless this debate has become. goodnight all.

Yeah, then it was resurrected. No bible reference necessary.

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Male 528
Timothy is a book in the bible? Hm..
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Female 1,112
Lionhart I love a good logic problem. I know the answer, I just want someone to try and defend it. You are so right my friend.
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Female 5,139
Wednesday, February 24, 2010 5:42:32 PM
I don`t like how pointless this debate has become. goodnight all.


lol

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Female 1,112
Iknowaghost, what you just said doesn`t make a lick of sense. Can someone tell me what he means?
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Male 8,300
> bumbleBB
> you never did tell me how it is you know what is to be taken literally or interpretively in the bible

Nor will whomever you asked be able to, because that`s like saying "This bridge is totally solid and will hold any weight whatsoever, except when it doesn`t". People say things like that about the Bible because there are bits in there they don`t like or want to stick to, too inconvenient to their lifestyle.

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Male 8,300
The simple scientific logic of the Bible is this: IF you accept the definition of God as true, THEN when He says `the Bible is My literal word` you have to accept that too. Including all the apparent contradictions and nasty bits. How can you accept something that says something, then totally contradicts itself somewhere else? The answer isn`t "Because the books were written by different men" or "because some of it is literal and some figurative". The answer is "Because if it was easy, you wouldn`t need faith to do it".

God (again, if you accept the existence/definition) says quite clearly in 2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is useful for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction." I emphasize the word `ALL` - it doesn`t say "Some of it is for this, some is just figurative."

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Male 19
Again, it goes back to the cult of Artemis thing. Women were tops in that cult, but their authority would not carry over to the message that the apostles were carrying over the area. In the area of Timothy`s church, wouldn`t most of the women then be ready to preach their own messages anyway? The literal context of this whole entire book is directed at this particular place in this particular time.
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Female 1,112
"why did they record women being the very first to do something important to Christian faith like discovering Jesus` tomb empty"

Really? You really think that is validation of how not sexist the bible is?

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Female 1,112
"There exists legitimate evidence archeologically and sociologically that shows people and places and things in the Bible have existed"

Examples please, because since I am critical of my own convictions I`ve looked into many of these instances and found many are hoaxes, exaggerated, or easily explained as stories told about people who did indeed exist. I mean Merlin existed but I don`t draw conclusions about the man because I watched the sword in the stone.

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Male 19
BB, I`m no saint. Even when I wasn`t conflicted whether Christianity was still worth it or not, I found it really easy to eye a girl in a youth group or out, and looking farther down that road proves me not to be a virgin anymore. Sex was not meant to be taboo, but it`s the easiest area to get carried away and callous in. There exists legitimate evidence archeologically and sociologically that shows people and places and things in the Bible have existed, but if you don`t look for them, you simply won`t find them. You don`t have to look to things left from two thousand years ago to know that any guy has more issues thinking with two brains than girls usually do. Women were welcome in congregations. If the authors of the Bible were THAT misogynistic, why did they record women being the very first to do something important to Christian faith like discovering Jesus` tomb empty?
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Female 1,112
oh lion don`t hate on Davy`s satire. I know you`re basically on the same page with this stuff. If so, tear me apart for my rendition of the commandments.
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Female 1,112
My arguments were getting weak and sometimes it takes a little support to become reinvigorated! Davy makes a great point about the context of your equal sexes argument. and you never did tell me how it is you know what is to be taken literally or interpretively in the bible.
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Female 414
I beleive...it is all a lie :]
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Male 8,300
> davymid
> Stupid woman caused the Downfall of Man and the entirety of Original Sin in the first place. Wasn`t the dude`s fault. Damn bitches need to learn to shut up and stick to making sammiches.

Damn Davy, I didn`t realize you were on the Committee working on the King James Version - 21st Century Edition. Can`t wait to read more.

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Female 1,112
DAVYMID!!!! My hero she swoons. Thank God (not really of course)! Beating this horse was starting to get tired.
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Female 5,139
davvvyyyyyy :) <3
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Male 8,300
Oh Bejeezuz, you woke the Leprechaun. Well done everyone, now we need to get the eye bleach and earmuffs out!
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Male 12,138

Now in the "context", the overarching meaning seems pretty clear to me. Something like "Stupid woman caused the Downfall of Man and the entirety of Original Sin in the first place. Wasn`t the dude`s fault. Damn bitches need to learn to shut up and stick to making sammiches".

Now, if that entire passage isn`t positively dripping with repulsive misogyny, then I don`t know what is. Sorry, I see no other way to interpret it taken as a whole.

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Male 12,138
[quote]In the creation story, Eve was taken from Adam`s side. This implies she was intended to stand next to him, as an equal.[/quote]

Complete and utter bullsh*t. I`ve listened to your interpretative ramblings of how the verse wasn`t directed at women but at uneducated people etc etc (seems pretty directly aimed at women to me). But that last bit about men and women being seen as equal bugs me.

You keep prattling on about context. One has to look no further than the VERY NEXT VERSE IN THE SAME PASSAGE AT QUESTION HERE for the fuller context. "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

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Female 1,112
I don`t like how pointless this debate has become. goodnight all.
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Male 8,300
The only way to win a religious argument on the internet is to use the Wheel of Power:

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Female 1,112
Diction - choice and use of words in speech.

are you incapable of understanding my choice and use of words in speech if I have may hair braided.

it has everything to do with diction.

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Female 1,112
"so a predominantly male congregation would probably do better without the girls trying to look as hot as they could to catch a guy`s attention for later, right? "

Yes if the object is to keep women out of the congregation.

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Male 19
It`s not about diction. It`s about message. I didn`t say that a women couldn`t reach people on a spiritual level depending on the way she dressed, I said it doesn`t make it easier. If you could remove as many hindrances to a primary objective as you could, why wouldn`t you? This primary objective was hearing a rabbi preach a message. It`s not something they could go back at like a video or his notes, so a predominantly male congregation would probably do better without the girls trying to look as hot as they could to catch a guy`s attention for later, right?
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Female 1,112
I gotta agree with Lionhart, even numbers can be a game.
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Female 1,112
What words did I put in your mouth?

"You have to agree with me that dressing for provacative reasons is cause for a mental distraction from something else in the opposite sex, right? "

I don`t know if I have to agree with that. Hey IAB men. Are you incapable of understanding my diction if I have may hair braided. How about if I wear a tight skirt?

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Male 19
BumbleBB, this is not interpretation! I`m trying to explain the difference between Jewish culture two thousand years ago and culture today with information from historical scholars and biblical scholars. If you don`t want to accept that, then you won`t ever understand where I`m coming from. I`m not speaking my opinion. You cannot say otherwise unless you know, beyond the reason of a doubt, that the conditions of the Jewish people and the region of the church Timothy was at are different than how I have displayed them. From what I`ve seen, this is actually completely new information to this thread, which leads me to believe that you didn`t even know these things to begin with.
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Male 8,300
> almightybob1
>> you can`t even accept mathematical "proof" as proof.
> ORLY. Do tell why not.

Because maths assigns a finite value (zero) to a non-existent quantity of items. This is equivalent to saying "Everyone else in the world is NOT shagging (insert babe here) therefore I AM". If you take the zero out of math, the whole math world falls apart. The whole Math thing is a plot by the Government to divert suspicion from the Civil War, Roswell, WTC and the Sasquatch Bioengineering Project.

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Male 19
BumbleBB that is definitely putting words in my mouth. I would just as willingly say that in a congregation predominantly of women, a good lookin guy shouldn`t come in with his shirt off, crotch-accentuating pants, etc. The fact is back in that time yeah, men had more social flexibility. No, I don`t think that should be anymore and I`m glad that`s not the case today. In the creation story, Eve was taken from Adam`s side. This implies she was intended to stand next to him, as an equal. I very much believe in sexual equality. You have to agree with me that dressing for provacative reasons is cause for a mental distraction from something else in the opposite sex, right?
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Female 5,139
Infact i think she might be the only Christian like that lol o.O
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Female 5,139
Video is slightly related (religion), it just makes me laugh xD
and before i get flamed, i know not all Christians are like that lady in the video, shes just an extreme personality.
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Female 1,112
Iknowaghost... there you are with your interpretation again. Unless Paul is speaking to you directly (if you go there prepare for the reckoning) you can`t assume that he wasn`t being sexist. Oh, and I ask again, which parts of the bible are literal, interpretive, and who decides which is which?"
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Female 5,139
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Male 19
Alice, I totally agree with you; it doesn`t just seem sexist, you could just say that saying women should be silent is sexist. But today there are multiple, multiple women pastors and the like, and there isn`t an uproar from any kind of higher-up system. This passage is not meant to be directly applied to life so literally like that... it`s the overarching message, that to teach scripture there needs to be some schooling behind it, that is the whole point to this part of the letter.
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Female 1,112
npdarren I couldn`t agree more.
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Male 813
Mathematics is the one and only truth in the universe.
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Female 1,112
"the hair braiding, the bangles and whatnot, it was all to attract attention in the same way girls now like the shortest skirts and the tighest tops"

Come again!?! Are you saying the way a woman dresses dictates her ability to reach people on a spiritual level? Please get in a time travel machine and spend more time with Paul. You two would hit it off swimmingly no doubt. You enjoy not bathing and dieing in the next ten years.

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Male 4,867
1Dom 2:12
"stfu and make me a sammich"
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Female 5,139
madest: i watched a programme about us being aliens on our own planet, that we were bacteria preserved in ice that arrived on this planet when conditions where right, thats some scary stuff, i swear i couldnt think right after that xD
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Male 601
I think the fact that so many religious demagogues fail to adhere to even the basic of their own religion`s tenets is reason enough to think there may be something wrong with said religion. Doesn`t it invalidate a religion when people pick and chose what morals to accept, and change the ones they don`t accept? That`s basically saying that the people who wrote the Bible got it wrong. And no, I`m not speaking out of my ass, there are countless examples of moral doctrines that Christians do not find "moral" anymore and this post is an example of one.
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Female 5,139
Iknowaghost, i understand how you are putting it, that it was a completely different time and therefore a different culture, but it`s still sexist, though it might not have been frowned upon back then. If you take that passage now, it seems insulting to us.
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Male 19
Almightybob, the cult of Artemis in the region of the church Paul wrote this letter to is the reason he directs it toward women. Here`s a situation under those conditions that might have happened: women might have been schooled with the cult of Artemis` beliefs, and could very well have been speaking up in synagogues according to those, which is why Paul would not want those women to take away from the rabbi teaching. As for the dress code, back in that time, the hair braiding, the bangles and whatnot, it was all to attract attention in the same way girls now like the shortest skirts and the tighest tops. To keep everyone concentrated on the message a rabbi would be preaching, wouldn`t it make sense to calm down the visual distraction?
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Female 5,139
"That`s what I love about it. The majesty of our universe is so incredible, it`s almost impossible for us to comprehend. It`s both terrifying and exhilirating to think that we may be the only beings with enough intelligence to realise just how fleeting such intelligence is."

It terrifies me more to think that we might NOT be the only beings with enough intelligence...

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Female 1,112
Iknowaghost.. Whatever your interpretation maybe, allmightybob is right. Like you said yourself he could have included all uneducated people, but he singles out women. And seeing as education was hard to come by for most people at that time, wouldn`t it be prudent to include all people who are uneducated on the matter? Sexism cannot be explained away by anyone other than those who are stating the remark themselves. Interpretation of what could have been the underlying message is not admissible as contextual proof.
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Male 4,290
[quote]actually, you can`t even accept mathematical "proof" as proof.[/quote]

ORLY. Do tell why not.

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Male 19
BumbleBB, this is a letter from one Jewish man to another, two thousand years ago. Cultures then and now are very different. You need to take everything in to context. Context is one of the crucial keys to understanding what you read in the Bible. I`m not justifying it. Once again, women were not put into the education system back then like they are now. I absolutely don`t think that`s fair, but that`s how it was. Would you let an average third grader teach calculus in a high school? I`m not saying women are inferior, and neither was Paul when he wrote that letter. He is recognizing there is a need for knowledge of a subject to teach it. That is the message he`s sending in this passage, and if you don`t understand the context of the culture and people he is talking to, then you cannot read it correctly.
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Male 4,290
[quote]I can`t begin to understand the science of it though, it blows my mind.[/quote]
That`s what I love about it. The majesty of our universe is so incredible, it`s almost impossible for us to comprehend. It`s both terrifying and exhilirating to think that we may be the only beings with enough intelligence to realise just how fleeting such intelligence is.

IKnowAGhost - That`s a nice interpretation, but unfortunately it`s not accurate.
Look at the words immediately before 1 Timothy 2:15, particularly from 1 Tim 2:9 onwards. It`s clear from context that Timothy isn`t saying that people who aren`t trained in scripture shouldn`t talk about it - he is clearly and specifically talking about women.

It`s sexism, plain and simple. Not only are women to be silent and not teach, they are not to dress up prettily, braid their hair, or wear jewellery.

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Female 5,139
I accept your apology.
"seeing as you like to keep your nose out of it."
I don`t remember saying i like to keep my nose out of it, religion interests me.
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Male 736
Peace. That`s all.
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Female 1,112
"im not going to go out and find other ways of proving my beliefs" If you don`t try to find new information you stunt your own growth intellectually. I debate, because it proves to me that not all my points are valid, and that I better find a more sound reason to believe in what I believe in. I`m sorry if I was "mean" to you, but your intention just to watch the flame war and throw in arbitrary comments to make some inane point irritates me. I also highly doubt that you`ve heard much of either side of the debate seeing as you like to keep your nose out of it. Or do you? Because you did make a comment to begin with right?
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Female 1,112
Iknowaghost...did you just try justify the thinking in the passage by saying "oh don`t worry he only harmlessly generalized that one woman should be ignored by applying it to all women."
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Male 58
actually, you can`t even accept mathematical "proof" as proof.

if you dig around long enough in any religion or opinion you will find something that contradicts it.

I suspect it`s because several people have written the books.

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Female 5,139
"The question is, are you going to incorporate the new evidence, build a better understanding, learn, and progress as a civilisation? Or are you going to rigidly stick to what you always thought, ignoring anything else that might be discovered?"

And i don`t want you to think im ignorent about religion and science, i have heard both sides, i was brought up a christian, and i believe in evolution, i don`t know if i believe in God, but like i said, thinking about it blows my mind, im not going to go out and find other ways of proving my beliefs, we aren`t all destined to be explorers of science or religion, some of us would rather see it unfold. I try to be open minded to new ideas, but like i said earlier, when people are mean to me i`ll just ignore them.

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Male 19
When you don`t understand the context of things, it`s hard to really know what`s going on. This passage is concerning the fact that women in Jewish culture back then were not normally put into any educational system. This is talking about teaching in synagogues... yeah, he could have written "any undeducated person" should sit in silence, but this church that the letter is addressing was near an area that the cult of Artemis was popular in, and because Artemis was a goddess, the preisthood of the cult was all women. What Paul is saying is (the vast majority of) women should not speak with authority in scripture if they aren`t students of it.
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Female 5,139
"Alice, you`re naive. While religion is not a person, those people who believe in its value have every opportunity to take offense to such a comment, especially since you go so far as to negate yourself by saying "no one knows". you just be quiet and I`ll leave you be. You see I don`t take kindly to your indirect criticisms of debating. Troll."

I think namecalling was a bit unnecessary really.

Almightybob i do agree with you on the part where you say "The first is known as the scientific method. The second is religion."
I think like everything, religion has good points and bad points, i like that it gives people faith in bad times but it`s the extremes i don`t like, like Harkannin said, if people were just nice to each other and accepted others beliefs instead of argueing about it all the time it wouldn`t be a problem.
I can`t begin to understand the science of it though, it blows my mind.

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Male 7,830
thats right, women are to be seen and not heard in the bible.
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Male 4,290
[quote]And i really don`t think anyone knows for sure, but people argue over it all the time, it`s all just opinions and beliefs.[/quote]

Nobody knows anything for sure. The only things we can know with 100% certainty are mathematical proofs. Everything else has a margin of error, because there is always the possibility that new evidence may be uncovered which directly disproves the previously held beliefs.

The question is, are you going to incorporate the new evidence, build a better understanding, learn, and progress as a civilisation? Or are you going to rigidly stick to what you always thought, ignoring anything else that might be discovered?

The first is known as the scientific method. The second is religion.

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Female 1,112
Harkannin, I have to apologize to you. All you did was try to express your internal conflict and I respect not having an opinion and still being able to contribute (although I think at some point you likely need to make some decisions for your own piece of mind). So I`m sorry. I threw you into a category with people who criticize those who do have opinions solely on the basis of being above that sort of thinking.

Alice, you`re naive. While religion is not a person, those people who believe in its value have every opportunity to take offense to such a comment, especially since you go so far as to negate yourself by saying "no one knows". you just be quiet and I`ll leave you be. You see I don`t take kindly to your indirect criticisms of debating. Troll.

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Male 175
@bumbleBB: voicing an opinion implies taking sides. I merely desire to throw in some perspective.
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Female 5,139
"I think religion sucks, noone knows, and everyone thinks they know."

I didn`t know religion was a person with feelings :P
And i really don`t think anyone knows for sure, but people argue over it all the time, it`s all just opinions and beliefs.

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Female 1,112
"I think religion sucks, noone knows, and everyone thinks they know."

Very humble and respectful. You are quite dodgy. Can`t quite make any assertion about yourself eh? I digress. I`m not on here to discuss people who aren`t brave enough to defend their own beliefs or even participate in conversations by openly asking questions about the things they don`t know. I`m here to dispute the criticism of religion to combat unwanted preaching! HOORAH

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Female 5,139
i meant "or" beliefs xD not of beliefs lol
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Female 5,139
"I agree about the kindness and humbleness jazz, although it`s difficult to maintain with all the seething"

Not really, i find it quite easy to be nice to people, no matter what their religion of beliefs to people who aren`t nice to me i generally ignore.

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Female 1,112
"When I use words to describe what I mean, it automatically says that something isn`t because it defines what is and therefore omits other possible meanings. " This is typically what one hopes to achieve in voicing an opinion.

I agree about the kindness and humbleness jazz, although it`s difficult to maintain with all the seething, above it all, non committal comments people like to throw around in cowardice.

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Female 1,112
Very nice Corma! Thanks for the laugh.

"I just came here to look at the religious flame war :)
I think religion sucks, noone knows, and everyone thinks they know."

and everyone knows what everyone thinks they know what no one knows, but they know that no one knows what no one knows.

Gutless rubbernecker.

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Female 5,139
I agree Harkannin, and that was very well worded :P
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Male 175
Whenever I try to put my perspective on these issues into words, I fail. When I use words to describe what I mean, it automatically says that something isn`t because it defines what is and therefore omits other possible meanings. In the end, it doesn`t matter. If we are kind, humble, and respectful to one another then it is good, if not then it is not so good.
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Female 5,139
I just came here to look at the religious flame war :)
I think religion sucks, noone knows, and everyone thinks they know.
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Male 496
@BumbleBB

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/evo...

Thought this was pretty accurate, simply because we see this as a joke. If it were christians flocking to see the virgin mary in a stain then we`d have to put on our serious faces :) I think the onion has captured it nicely!

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Female 1,112
Oh and on the whole contradicted front, IAB is often flawed in their titling. Hell I think that shows they really don`t care. If they truly had an anti-christian agenda, I think they`d be a little more aggressive and accurate. If Christians could ever come up with something witty to say about atheists I`m sure someone would post it.
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Female 56
@ Max Normal

I`m from Ireland and I`m glad I`m from a country where we can `choose` what to believe in whether it be a "primitive sky belief system" or nothing at all...maybe in your country the choices are more limited...i`d be willing to bet though it`s just you who is limited!

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Female 1,112
Besides, when Atheists do make statements you can be sure there`s an army of Christian defenders there to put in their 2 cents worth. What`s the difference.
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Male 496
QUOTE: "Nice try IAB. Better luck next time with your anti-Christian agenda."

Missed this part sorry. What the hell are you talking about? Anti-christian agenda? Wow. So im going to take a guess and say this upset you because it`s something that questions your beliefs. Well good. However to quote House

"If you could reason with religious people, then there would be no religious people"

Too true!

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Female 1,112
agreed, MildCorma. I don`t generally bring it up unless the situation arises. This is such a situation. It`s not wrong for myself and other atheists to discuss our beliefs or rather disbelief`s in any capacity. The guy with the sign isn`t even attacking Christians per-say, he`s attacking the ones who don`t respect his right to walk down the street without hearing her filth. I find it odd that Christians love to throw their views all over the place, but should an athiest say anything, were cruel and bigoted.
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Male 1,610
Well put Bumblebb. Christians, you guys don`t realize how annoying you are to everyone else when you preach. If we want to hear about God, we`ll come ask. Until then, leave us alone or we`re gonna f*** with you.
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Male 12,365
[quote]I`m assuming she`s preaching about how to be a good person to save your soul,[/quote]

Why on earth would you assume that?

[quote]and this guy pulls out a pretty hateful comment.[/quote]

From her religion. That was part of the point.

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Male 496
@Lordtyusa

Wow dude, so where do I start? Firstly we are not "anti-christian", we are atheist. We don`t care about -any- religion, not just christianity. We believe that people are entitled to think what they like and believe what they like. What we don`t like is when people that do believe in god decide they want to "spread the message" or "save our dammed souls". We don`t give a poo! We`re atheists! Leave us the drat alone! We have made a choice now respect it like we respect your beliefs. When someone comes out into the open and starts preaching at me then they are going to get a witty comeback. The bible is not logical, in fact, its complete bollocks, but I don`t run around churches shouting "go godless! You are missing superbowl Sunday!"

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Female 1,112
SO tell me! WHICH PARTS ARE TRUE!?!?! WHICH PARTS ARE LITERAL?!?!?! WHICH PARTS REQUIRE INTERPRETATION!?!? WHO GETS TO DECIDE WHICH IS WHICH!?!?!? WHY HAVE THE OPINIONS OF THESE DESIGNATIONS CHANGED FROM TIME PERIOD TO TIME PERIOD? WHY AT ONE TIME WOULD A PASSAGE BE TRUTHFUL AND ENDORSED, THEN LATER REBUKED!?!? I`m yelling because my hair started falling out. If Christianity is as clearly delivered to all men as Christians proclaim giving them all equal chance of defending accurately the intention of the bible, then why are there so many discrepancies?
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Female 1,112
So I`m confused... The bible isn`t all the word of God? Wasn`t that why these people were chosen to contribute to the bible? To give God a voice for the common man? Damn you Christian defenders! I cannot make head nor tails of you arguments because they go in circles.
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Male 40,739
The letters of Paul, while forming the backbone of the Catholic Church, aren`t Gospel and are NOT the words of Jesus.
Paul says some fairly stupid shiit, which I sincerely doubt Jesus would have tolerated, much less agreed with.
Now, lets have a picture of all the MUSLIM women clerics... I`m waiting...
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Male 301
*SIGH* And once again, anti-Christians show their ignorance. I too can take a small part of a text and quote it as a representation of the whole. But then I too would be wrong. It`s ridiculous to nit-pick certain passages out of the Bible like that and claim it`s anti-woman or whatever spin you want to place on it. If you read the whole book of Timothy, you`ll actually see that Paul was talking about a group of people who had broken away from the church. The actual lesson here is more elaborate than that one quote. And btw, this doesn`t actually prove a "contradiction". For those of you with access to a dictionary, you`ll find that a contradiction requires at least TWO different views (basic counting skills show there to be only one here). Nice try IAB. Better luck next time with your anti-Christian agenda.
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Male 500
"I`m assuming she`s preaching about how to be a good person to save your soul, and this guy pulls out a pretty hateful comment. So, the guy comes off like a douchebag, but I guess you only see what you want. I mean, you can make being in love look pretty pooty if you only gave examples of the bad things about it."
What`s "good" about preaching a load of easily disprovable lies? She should STFU and mind her own business.
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Male 500
Phew! I`m glad that over here in Europe the indigenous people have an education system and average intelligence decent enough to ensure that most people are resistant to indoctrination into any type of primitive sky fairy belief systems (except Italy and Ireland, but there you go). Although we do have a lot of middle-eastern immigrants with their even-more-angry sky fairy.
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Female 1,112
Spoonfork, I think this guy did what he did, because he wasn`t down with her unsolicited preaching. If you preach something, especially when it`s unsolicited expect to be criticized. If your preachings are ridiculous by logical standard, expect to be made fun of.
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Male 2,056
bumbleBB:

FTW!!

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Female 1,112
Ah, true IkeRay buy he is not the one Christian God who made the commandments.
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Male 1,265
I`m assuming she`s preaching about how to be a good person to save your soul, and this guy pulls out a pretty hateful comment. So, the guy comes off like a douchebag, but I guess you only see what you want. I mean, you can make being in love look pretty pooty if you only gave examples of the bad things about it.
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Male 2,703
"I am THE one god bitches! Don`t worship allah or any of those other mofos."

just to be annoying :) Allah IS God

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Male 40
why isn`t she in a god damn kitchen
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Male 1,190
Middle Eastern Death Cult that practices Ritual Cannabalism on a weekly basis. Cult has been a factor in most European wars for the last 2000 years. Cult was culpable in the genocide of Jews and the outbreak of WW2 in Europe.
This cult`s economic outgrowth, Capitalism has accelerated the death, decay and general torture of humanity that is this cults hallmark.
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Female 1,112
yay for sarcastic ineffectual comments of superiority!
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Male 795
yay! another theological poo slinging fest! I love these!
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Male 160
Yay for being snooty about taking the bible out of context!
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Female 1,112
Since the debate seems to be cold, I think I will list the commandments now just for the fun of it.

1. I am THE one god bitches! Don`t worship allah or any of those other mofos.

2. Do not worship false idols. Get the eff outta here Brangelina.

3. You non-nice individuals better only mention my name when you mean it! Don`t take it in vain draters.

4. No rollin on Shabbos.

5. Honour your Mommsy and Daddsy. Put them in a nice home.

6. Do not murder, unless I or George Bush tell you too.

7. Do not commit Adultery. Nasty Animals.

8. Do not steal. (Unless you figure out a way to make it seem like not stealing and do it in the name of the church.)

9. Do not bear false witness against your neighbour, unless you are really sure she`s a witch and deserves it.

10. Do not covet thy neighbours wife, unless I tell her to kill her husband effectively making her a widow...then you just go right ahead.

Don`t get all upity.

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Male 168
is it 25 cent word day here at i-a-b?
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Male 881
Exegesis is an oxymoron.
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Male 25,416
Wow, thats insane!
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Female 1,112
monktoast now how is that helpful? You are vague and disingenuous.
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Male 263
you peeps need to learn exegesis, and social context of the ancient near east before speaking please.
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Male 2,850
"and then all he asked in return for him doing this for us was to just believe that his sons did this for us"

Demanding recognition, or even worse, worship, when you do something nice goes a great length towards negating the niceness of your act.

In any case, why on earth would an all-powerful God need or want said belief/recognition/worship?

Is your god lacking in self-confidence?

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Male 1,929
TBH on a site all about little laughs and passing the time, finding the big proportion of lulz to be Christian is entirely neutral. It is a) big with nutters in the western world and b) largely bollocks in substance. Therefore, completely naturally, you get a lot of it. Lessening the number of religion-based lulz will be giving a biased view in favour of religion, which nobody wants.

People who try and make points using the bible are naturally hilarious to normal people.

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Female 1,112
""So who decides which is which? What an awful
so as Christians we read the bible, interpret it and try to apply it to the time we live in the best we can."

Like I said... willingly into a debate, the subject of which originated from that woman and her choice of interpretation of the bible. The side you are arguing for.

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Male 12,138
[quote]Contrary to popular belief this is a myth. The gospels are almost totally agreed to be written as little as 30 years after the death of Christ. Which, if you know anything about your history, you`d know this is amazing. Everyone did everything orally. Stories were passed on orally etc[/quote]

Right, stories passed on orally. Thus I reiterate my statement (NOT a myth, thank you): "it`s very likely that not one single word of the New Testament was written by anyone who had actually MET Jesus."

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Male 881
@Thor82, wow, what a generous God, He let them bake with cow poo rather than human poo.

Just as we have learned how to cook with fuels other than poo, we have also learned ethics and morals. It is no longer acceptable to treat women as the Bible suggests, nor is it acceptable to follow God`s genocidal orders.

I don`t know if God exists, but what I am sure of is that the Bible is wrong, and that Christian doctrine does not follow the Bible, and Christians do not follow the doctrine.

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Female 1,148
God is dead.
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Female 1,112
" The gospels are almost totally agreed to be written as little as 30 years after the death of Christ. " at a time when life spans averaged 30 years.

"People`s memories and ability to recite things they`ve witnessed or had been told were incredible in comparison to our society today."

There is no scientific proof of this whatsoever, simply because it cannot be tested.

"Roman Empire was singularly bent on persecuting and suppressing Christianity"

I suppose that`s true, but you must also accept that the expansion and worldwide acceptance of Christianity came from the oppressive force of an egotistical megalomaniac named Constantine, followed by the force and oppression of the church through taxation and evtually inquisition.

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Male 4,546
"What kind of compassionate god gives his followers rules he knows it`s impossible for them to obey?"

Erm, no. Example:
"Hey kids, don`t have unsafe sex"
This is from a point of compassion.
It is impossible for all of humanity to follow it.
Without the rule, there would be more of it.

The harm is not done by imposing the rule, harm is done by breaking it. They are just informing you of it.

Same:
Do not kill.
Do not steal.
Do not have affairs.
Do not worship false gods.

All of these lead to problems on their own.

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Male 13
mjfoxman.

Go read the book of Leviticus. Particularly 20.

Just see what it says about killing people ;)

Gays. Unruly sons. etc etc...

And another thing, NOONE IS JUDGING YOU.

We are judging the BIBLE, NOT YOU.

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Male 336
bumbleBB - i didn`t defend the lady, i defended the passage.

almightybob1 - your right gods not compassionate. its not like he gave us life, then we went and defied his law and sinned against him and secured a place in hell, and yet he decided to forgive us and send his own son to die for our sins so that we could go to heaven, and then all he asked in return for him doing this for us was to just believe that his sons did this for us. your right that`s not compassionate. thats something a person could never do. thats mercy and love that no one could even fathom.

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Male 2,076
<i>Actually, it`s much worse than that. Contrary to popular belief, it`s very likely that not one single word of the New Testament was written by anyone who had actually MET Jesus.</i>

Contrary to popular belief this is a myth. The gospels are almost totally agreed to be written as little as 30 years after the death of Christ. Which, if you know anything about your history, you`d know this is amazing. Everyone did everything orally. Stories were passed on orally, business was done orally. People`s memories and ability to recite things they`ve witnessed or had been told were incredible in comparison to our society today. To have something recorded even 100 years after the supposed death of Jesus is an astonishing feat in itself, especially since the Roman Empire was singularly bent on persecuting and suppressing Christianity.

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Female 1,112
Peveo come be a part of it and take it with a grain of salt. If nothing else you`ll learn something.
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Male 430
I guess, I just get tired of these posts/debates...
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Male 1,793
Funny...
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Female 1,112
Peveo, because debating Christianity is the most relevant debate. There aren`t too many elected officials who boast belief in any other faith. Christianity controls all of our lives in one way or another.
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Female 1,112
"the Bible really is the most single important part of our cultural legacy and will likely remain so for a very long time. "

I totally agree, it`s definitely the most prolific and history shaping hoax of all times.

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Male 430

Why does IAB only/always debate Christianity?
There are so many other religions out there.
Why not talk about Rastafarian or Wicca?
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Male 12,138
[quote]hell, some of [the people who wrote the New Testament] weren`t present for half of it[/quote]

Actually, it`s much worse than that. Contrary to popular belief, it`s very likely that not one single word of the New Testament was written by anyone who had actually MET Jesus.

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Female 1,112
because your defending this idiot lady and her judgmental views by posting your beliefs in this dialogue. You entered a debate willingly, I didn`t single you out to judge you.
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Male 4,290
[quote]but if a christian tried to uphold that now, people would think he is sexiest, and condemn Christianity as sexist and wrong. so as Christians we read the bible, interpret it and try to apply it to the time we live in the best we can.[/quote]

So when society tells you (correctly) your religion is wrong and sexist, you go back and change your religion and beliefs to better fit society? That doesn`t sound like ultimate moral authority to me.

[quote]just go copy down the ten commandments. there is not a man on earth that is able to follow all of those[/quote]
What kind of compassionate god gives his followers rules he knows it`s impossible for them to obey?

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Male 2,422
Elijah and Elisha are the most awesome people in the entire Bible. It also suprises me how many Christains have actually never read the Bible and just have it interpreted for them at church and sunday school. It`s a book everyone should try to read even if you don`t believe a word of it because you can`t really understand western history and culture without it. You can`t fully appreciate Milton, Dante, or Blake without an understanding of Christain belief, ditto for people like Nietzche who rail against it. That`s why, as an atheist, I think throwing the Bible completely out of the schools is retarded. Apart from being a religuos text it is a piece of liturature and should be embraced as such. For better or for worse, the Bible really is the most single important part of our cultural legacy and will likely remain so for a very long time.
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Male 15,510
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)
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Male 336
slayjordan - the bible doesnt tell you to go kill certai people, the bible teaches to spread gods word and save people.

and i find it funny that this whole time i have just stated what i believe and everyone cant wait to tell me im wrong. you say that as Christians we judge you, yes some do and they r wrong to do so, but look at yourself once in awhile. bumbleBB you say you grew up and realized its wrong to judge people with out reason. then how come this whole time you have been doing it to me.

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Female 1,112
Kalkin are you talking to me? What are you getting at.
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Male 44
Which 10 commandments would those be?
Can you list them?
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Male 336
"Interpreting the bible is already a form of distorting it. Just saying..."

interpret - to explain or tell the meaning of : present in understandable terms

im not trying to change or distort what the bible says, im trying to understand it. that is what i mean by interpret.

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Male 13
bumbleBB I`m the same way.I never shut up arguing...err, debating. Totally know about the community view. It is nice in that aspect.

But its a choice, that you have to make. Not have someone else make for you.

One thing I am completely against is trying to make children believe. That`s just wrong in my opinion.

And Mjfoxman... Thats just it. The majority of the United States follows the bible supposedly. If that is so...then how did the laws today start negatively interacting with the rules of the bible?

I just personally refuse to put too much belief into a book that tells you go kill certain people.
How is that any better than the Qur`an ?

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Male 336
"IkeRay I was religious once too, but then I grew up and realized it didn`t make sense and just gave people a reason to judge each other without reason."

see the problem is everyone runs into those people who stand on a street corner and yell to the world that everyone is wrong and going to hell, and that they are better than everyone else. then you think that every christian is like that. i dont think im better than anyone. i am just as bad as everyone else. the difference is i believe god will forgive me because i believe in him.

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Male 807
trust me, religious people scare me-anyone who bases their morals on the bible (any Holy Book for that matter)is morally bankrupt
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Female 1,112
mjfoxman, save me some time going out and borrowing a bible from the library, and tell me how it is being portrayed wrong.
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Male 210
Check this out, it`s from Ezekiel 23:19-20

"Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt.
There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses."

For more of this, check http://www.cracked.com/article_15699_the...

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Female 79
this is at the University of Arizona. i pass by those obnoxious people like, once a week. they draw huge crowds of hecklers, and are generally really annoying.
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Female 1,112
Slayjordan... I prefer the term God. I am your new GOD. jk. I honestly don`t hate religion. Community is a good thing, and having something to exist for is good for some people. Just don`t thrust your expectations for life on me and we`ll be fine. But I do question the poo out of things. It`s hard to shut me up.
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Male 336
bumbleBB- first in no way did i say god was wrong, that is impossible. yes i agree with the passage. but the way it is being portrayed here is wrong. read the whole chapter if u want to understand what god is saying. and yes i uphold the passages on homosexuality. i think it is wrong and a sin. and no gods word is absolute. what i was trying to say is, i read the bible and try to best interpret what god was saying and apply it today. in the end if your trying to prove that i am wrong sometimes, then your right. i am a sinner, i know this, i admit it, and im no better than anyone else. i try to follow god the best i can and know god will forgive me when i dont.
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Male 13
bumbleBB... Couldnt have put it better myself. You`re my new hero.

Has anyone ever actually read the old Testament? Give it a read. ;)
Completely full of evil deeds.

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Male 56
@NottaSpy You can take any verse out of context if you don`t read the surrounding verses. It was a threat towards Ezekiel.
13 The LORD said, "In this way the people of Israel will eat defiled food among the nations where I will drive them."

14 Then I said, "Not so, Sovereign LORD! I have never defiled myself. From my youth until now I have never eaten anything found dead or torn by wild animals. No unclean meat has ever entered my mouth."

15 "Very well," he said, "I will let you bake your bread over cow manure instead of human excrement."

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Female 239
Interpreting the bible is already a form of distorting it. Just saying...
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Female 1,112
IkeRay I was religious once too, but then I grew up and realized it didn`t make sense and just gave people a reason to judge each other without reason.
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Female 1,112
"also if your going to pick out verse after verse, ....its called sin. and as Christians we acknowledge we are sinners and believe Jesus died for our sins and therefore our debt is paid by his blood. "

I think generally the 10 commandments with a couple of exceptions are good moral guidelines that most people Christian or not agree with. My problem is the diction of the bible that is out right ignored by Christians because it doesn`t jive with the modern world.

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Male 881
@Thor82, it emphasizes the absurdity of following life lessons written by people who needed to eat poo smoked barley.
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Male 2,703
"Man, I`ve got to read the bible one day, but it`s really just not my kind of fiction."

the old testament is an amazing read, don`t bother with the new as its just the `same story` told by a bunch of crazy `frat brothers`, their stories match to an extent but I find it hard to believe they wrote this w/o communications between each other about details of the situations, hell some of them weren`t present for half of it (like when jesus was carrying the cross), yet they know such vivid details.

btw, I`m not religious (not anymore) but I`ll be damned if the old testament`s stories aren`t just as good at teaching morals as Aesop`s fables - just leave out the fear part (`god will smite you if you misbehave`)

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Female 1,112
mjfoxman, do you agree with the passage? If so, why don`t you uphold it then? If not who has given you authority over god to interpret and apply his word as you see fit? Do you uphold the passages regarding homosexuality, because I see the upholding of those passages as oppressive and wrong, and really there`s no difference between that and oppressing women. Does that mean that God was swayed by the time he was dictating too when he was telling the world how to be, and that gives you the right to objectively examine his word and disagree with it when you feel it is appropriate to question him?
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Male 1,013
@thor82 - Fail. There are so many different versions of the bible:
KJV: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
ASV: But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.
NLT: I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly.
NSSB: But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

There`s a plethora of other version, pick the one that you like the best and rationalize that god is actually good.


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Male 56
@Nottaspy, dung is commonly used as fuel, so I`m not seeing what is so absurd
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Male 271
something about a new covenant....
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Male 4
that is so crazy, I saw that exact women, wearing that same shirt in Ohio, traveling nutjob I guess
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Male 336
also if your going to pick out verse after verse, of how Christians don`t follow things in the bible, just go copy down the ten commandments. there is not a man on earth that is able to follow all of those, even though it is in the bible. its called sin. and as Christians we acknowledge we are sinners and believe Jesus died for our sins and therefore our debt is paid by his blood.
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Male 336
"So who decides which is which? What an awful cop out. Either you uphold the book "Gods word" entirely, or you don`t. You don`t get to pick out the "reasonable" parts and throw out what you don`t want to follow."

we dont do it so we can pick and choose what to follow and what to say no i dont wanna do that. it is hard to take what was said back then and apply it to this time. just like this verse. back then man did have authority over women and they were not allowed to teach. but if a christian tried to uphold that now, people would think he is sexiest, and condemn Christianity as sexist and wrong. so as Christians we read the bible, interpret it and try to apply it to the time we live in the best we can.

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Female 1,112
Thanks for the heads up IkeRay, I`ll be sure to find some other passage that they violate.

Maddog, together I think we can create an h-bomb caliber catastrophe in the religious sect of IAB.

Man, I`ve got to read the bible one day, but it`s really just not my kind of fiction.

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Male 881
Classic! My favorite is still Ezekiel 4:12.

And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.

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Male 2,703
"and what`s that one about not cutting your hair?"

actually, it was only one person in the Bible told not to cut his hair, though the passage can easily be pulled and taken out of context.

"God" told Samson`s parents to make him a nazirite, and not to cut his hair as it is a bond between him and God. he is also forbidden from drinking alcohol and visiting deceased/graves, though in samson`s case is he exempt from the last part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazirite

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Male 3,369
@ bumbleBB

I`ve been asking why the cherry [ick the parts that suits them for years. However, I find it`s np longer wise to use logic on belivers of any faith. It just makes them either

a) Angry
b) Angrier
c) Threaten me in some way
d) Implode!

I allways aim for d) though! It`s so much fun!

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Male 56
1 Timothy 2:12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. If your going to quote the Bible, at least do it correctly. Fail.
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Male 1,013
Quote time!!! YAY!


Proverbs 21:19
It is better to live in a desert land than with a contentious and vexing woman.

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Male 85
"So who decides which is which? What an awful cop out. Either you uphold the book "Gods word" entirely, or you don`t. You don`t get to pick out the "reasonable" parts and throw out what you don`t want to follow."

Well said.

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Male 85
genius. i hate people that protest without doing any homework hahaha
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Female 1,112
"Also, most would say that there are parts of the bible that are for a certain time and other things that are good moral stories to follow always!"

So who decides which is which? What an awful cop out. Either you uphold the book "Gods word" entirely, or you don`t. You don`t get to pick out the "reasonable" parts and throw out what you don`t want to follow.

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Female 1,112
and what`s that one about not cutting your hair? I love that one for those clean cut Mormon boys trollin at my door.
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Male 56
In this case the bible isn`t contradicting itself, but instead it is the lady not following the "bible". Also, most would say that there are parts of the bible that are for a certain time and other things that are good moral stories to follow always!
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Male 20,905
Link: The Bible Gets Beaten At Its Own Game Again [Pic] [Rate Link] - See, you dig around the Bible long enough, you can contradict everything in it.
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