Lifeless` Prion Proteins Are Capable Of Evolution

Submitted by: SubElixer 7 years ago in Science
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8435320.stm

Scientists can now prove lifeless prion proteins can evolve just like higher forms of life. Your move, creationists.
There are 179 comments:
Male 12,365
[quote]That would be a year, genius. A day is one rotation of the Earth on its axis.[/quote]

Oh dear, what a mistake to make. In my defence...err...no, I can`t come up with a defence for that.

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Male 11
Id say these comments are more fun to read then the post itself haha
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Male 299
1. To my knowledge to "walk" through a solid object is an impossibility, however it is theoretically possible to go from one side to the other.
2.Teleportation is very real, as of yet they have only been able to teleport atoms, but are working on trying molecules next and then cells.
3.Appear.... as in come into sight, from nothing. Yes, physicists have been able to make light bend around objects. Some guess that within only a few years will cloaking devices be available for military use.
4. Yes, through tiny unstable wormholes, physicists have been able to send particles back in time.
5. Again, it hasn`t been done with humans yet but particles are capable to be in two places at the same time and even though they appear to be two different particles they are only one.

So there are your answers.

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Male 3,842
"A day is one orbit of the Earth around the sun."

That would be a year, genius. A day is one rotation of the Earth on its axis.

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Male 12,365
I lol am wtf talking about roflcopter lolrus various aspects of this thread. !1!! eleventy-one.

Is that better than my answer to the last time you asked that question?

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Male 2,309
Angilion, what the hell are you talking about? lol
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Male 12,365
[quote]Im not trying gain anything here, Im simply caring for people who will have to pay a fine but they wont be able to.[/quote]

You`re engaging in bullying by proxy - you are demanding obedience and threatening suffering from your psycho god if you don`t get it.

Then you claim you`re doing it because you care for the people you`re trying to bully. That`s disturbing.

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Male 12,365
[quote]All I know is that Gen chap one says God created the heaven and the earth in 6 days.[/quote]

That`s a translation and interpretation. Also, Genesis contains two different versions of the creation story, which don`t entirely match up with each other.

Also...how do you get days before the sun? A day is one orbit of the Earth around the sun.

So what it actually says is much less clear than you think.

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Male 14,331
You know how I know there`s no God MTV`s Jersey Shore exists.
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Male 421
Excuse me if I was forced to dumb down my arguments to limit them within the character limit, and also limit my argument to theist vs. atheist rather than christian vs. everybody else. Even then, it wasn`t so much a fight as an observance of how many factors have come together to allow for our existence within this seemingly perfect universe.

As we can witness through the Hubble/etc..., other galaxies that have existed for who knows how long (thanks to speed of light we`re viewing them as they were potentially thousands of years ago) function in the exact same way as our own, and if it was all a matter of chance, why aren`t there some that operate with a completely different set of rules that we can visibly see?

I`m not trying to change anybody`s mind on the matter (seeing how many are just trying to turn this into a dick measuring contest) I`m just throwing in my two cents about how it makes a lot of sense for me if God set it all in motion and it`s not gonna come crashing down.

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Male 14,331

And the LORD said unto Moses "BRAAAIIINS!!!" and Moses said "BRAAAIINS!!" and it was so.
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Male 322
"@cuthere2
teleportation is actually possable but we only wne as far a moving a single light proton (i think thats it) but if you wanted to teleport somewhere through the internet it would take something like 13 million something years, and if that is true then you can appear from nothing as for time travel...well this isn`t back to the future now is it?"

Huh? What are you trying to say here? It appears you completely missed the point of the post. Back to the future? Who said anything about traveling BACK in the future? Are you unaware of the phenom?

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Male 176
I gots my hat and gots my bag of oranges... ready for the zombie apocalypse!
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Male 964
@cuthere2
teleportation is actually possable but we only wne as far a moving a single light proton (i think thats it) but if you wanted to teleport somewhere through the internet it would take something like 13 million something years, and if that is true then you can appear from nothing as for time travel...well this isn`t back to the future now is it?
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Male 322
One more point I wanted to make. I find it funny all these theists come in here acting as if they are qualified to tell us what is and is not possible in the universe.

Answer this for me:

1. Is it possible to walk through solid objects?
2. Is it possible to teleport?
3. Is it possible to appear from nothing?
4. Is time travel possible?
5. Is it possible to be in 2 places at once?

Common understanding tells us "no" to these questions right? Well you`d be wrong! On a subatomic level, ALL of the above pheneomena have been observed.

It seems as if the laws of physics as we currently understand them almost cease to exist on the subatomic level.

This brings me to my point. Seeing as how we`re not advanced enough to understand how these things occur, and that most of you theists weren`t even AWARE of these happenings - How on earth can you come in here and tell us what is and is not possible?

Sort of like a caveman telling an engineer working on the s

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Male 322
Yellowsquare - Your comment proves my point!

The theists want to look at use logic to argue AGAINST evolution and the origin of the universe by saying:

"Oh that`s ridiculous... Show me 1 thing that`s ever come into existance by chance!"

Yet, when the tables are turned, your belief cannot stand up to the same scrutiny you want to apply to well founded principles... See? I`ll ask the same question theists ask with a small twist:

"Show me a single being other than your claim of God that has ALWAYS existed?"

Your proof? You claim everything else needed a beginning in this universe, so why are you giving this "god" being a break? You have some sort of evidence we should know about?

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Male 3,369
@ yellowsquare

You just nailed the stupid. As pointed out, an individual may choose to belive something just "cant" pop into existance but will belive something "always has been, and always will be in existence".

To those people I say



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Female 1,545
cuthere, I think most Christians would agree that God did not "come" from anything. He simply is, always has been, and always will be in existence. There was no creation of God.
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Male 322
Wait, I just read this comment:

"here`s one for ya...where did all matter come from? where did it all originate? how did subatomic (and the sub-subatomic particles that form them) particles form and how did these laws come about that govern the way they interact? if you think that anything and everything ever just came into existence by chance, then you definitely have more faith than I ever possibly could."

Huh? Yet you believe in a magical being that came from WHERE? Oh that`s right, POOF, just came into being as well. Who made God? Theists love to argue irreducible complexity, that the more complex something is, the more impossible it is to come about by chance.

Yet these same people believe that God, obviously the most complex being imaginable seeing as how he sees all, knows all, and created all things - Came fromo NOTHING... Circular logic kills me!

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Male 3,369
I can prove there is no god here and now!

If there was a god, I would have witnessed the following at least once in my life.

Debate over, I win!

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Male 8,300
> IONIC
> What if Heaven is...

As long as Heaven has decent speed Wifi and a section where all the Irish Shell Geologists are in a cage and we can stand there pointing and laughing, I`ll be happy.

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Male 163
K, this is completely off topic, much like every other comment, so i doubt anyone will notice:) What if heaven totally sucks ass? I mean, Heaven was created THOUSANDS of years ago, right, when the average man would consider toilet paper to be a form of witch craft. What if the heaven people ascend to is the same heaven created back then when peoples standards were lower. God created the heaven and the earth simultaneously, right? Do you honestly think the dude has been renovating all this time? Perhaps heaven is a one bedroom flat above a bowling ally with no central heating, lukewarm running water, and three bible channels on a rabbit eared television.
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Male 299
Ok mr. joeyroey. I`m no scientologist but i`ll pretend to be one just for you.

Brain diseases related to prions?! What rubbish.. there is no such thing as brain diseases... only evil spirits that go into our bodies and influence our behaviour! Jeez people get educated and stop being so damn ignorant! .... Lord Xenu is controlling you!


Aw crap im gonna get sued now :S Why did you make me do this joey?!

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Male 8,300
> Joeyroey
> This is just turning into a flame war.

No, I think it did that 5 pages ago. Now its just a slagfest.

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Male 32
Sorry Im not the best typer heh
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Male 32
Johnnk if ur friend was about to steal a car, and u told them" hey dont break the law or ull get caught and ull have to pay a huge fine" wouldnt that be a scare tactic, but ur using it to protect ur friend u dont want them to pay a fine u know they cant pay. Im not trying gain anything here, Im simply caring for people who will have to pay a fine but they wont be able to. U dont when they will die so thats why I warn others. I know i sure needed to be warned.Mark 16:15 15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
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Male 179
/agree
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Male 70
We need some Scientologists in this thread.
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Male 70
This is just turning into a flame war.
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Male 179
Plus there are like, 3 Christians, 5 atheists, 2 agnostics and a drating wiccan/emo kid.

Not much to choose from when it comes to religion diversity.

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Male 179
Joey, that`s because it`s long and boring.

The less intelligent of us just make stuff up and hope you believe. :P

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Male 179
I do believe Christ died for all of mankind, but using scare tactics and bible quotes aren`t going to change minds.

Salvation may be important to us, but other people just want to live. Live for today, and not worry about Hell, or Death.

Stop trying to save people, and learn to save yourself. Even if you think you piss piety and poo rainbows thereis always room for improvement.

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Male 156
"PhD sounds smooth, so its a good way to get people to take you seriously and think you know what you`re talking about."

Dude, as if anyone here knows what they`re talking about.

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Male 70
I`m an agnostic and I`ve probably read more of the bible then 4/5ths of the Christians here.
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Male 32
Johnnyk123, All I know is that Gen chap one says God created the heaven and the earth in 6 days. look our arguments is some what pointless I wasnt completly talking about evolution, i was talking about salvation. Do u believe Christ died for u or do u only believe that God is real and that u dont need to except Jesus into ur heart?
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Male 179
Joey, I don`t think it would be THAT mistranslated.
A word or 2 may be out of origin, however, most if it is as translated as it gets.

I wish Jesus would come over to my house. I hate tap water.

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Male 70
PhD sounds smooth, so its a good way to get people to take you seriously and think you know what you`re talking about.
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Male 156
I think this sums up why religion makes no sense. If you want to "interpret" the scripture, everybody will have their own interpretation and there is absolutely no way for anyone to have the last word. If, on the other hand, you choose to take everything literally, you soon realize nothing written there makes sense, as it has been pointed out a lot of times.
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Male 179
"Who the hell gets a PhD in BIOLOGY? How can you get a PhD in an entire branch of science?"

I must have skipped over that, suffice to say I LOL`d hard.

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Male 70
If some of the bible is mistranslated, then what stops some of the "Important" stuff from being mistranslated. Maybe Jesus turned the wine into water as a practical joke?
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Male 2,309
The way I feel, is that you don`t need God in this universe. If he does exist, he isn`t doing anything...

But, to each their own. I just wish people would leave their after-life beliefs for the after-life and just let secularists deal with the real world.

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Male 2,309
"insanely delicate the universe is and yet it all seems to work together perfectly"

I disagree so intensely. Most of the universe is just plain stupid. Most stars lose so much energy that it is pointless--the entire universe is pointless. It will eventually go into a complete death where nothing can interact anymore--those electrons and protons, etc. will be unable to interact anymore after an incredibly long time, but still.

Plus, it only seems that way because you evolved inside the system. Your deduction skills aren`t very sharp.

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Male 179
Angilion that is a very good argument. Trumps mine by a long shot.


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Male 12,365
[quote]Angilion, what the hell are you talking about? lol[/quote]

In which post? I`ve made half a dozen in this entertaining but probably pointless thread.

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Male 179
Sprinkz, it wasn`t being mean, it was your opinion, and a wise one at that.

The bible in itself was meant to be taken literally, however, I believe Genesis in itself to be taken figuratively.

I assume it be logical to believe in evolution and try and connect that to genesis. I believe in God wholeheartedly, but also that evolution occurred.

I see nothing wrong with that, and in all honesty I think there would be slightly more peace if most Christians thought as I do and excepted evolution as fact. They wouldn`t have to compromise their belief in God, just try and rationalize the first chapter of the bible.

Or maybe I`m a fool haha, who knows right? :P

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Male 12,365
[quote]If time does not apply to an ever-present and all powerful God, then how could 7 days apply? Perhaps it wasn`t meant as 7 "human" days, but rather a number that only applies to God himself.[/quote]

I have a simpler argument - it was never actual days anyway. Humans needed to write something down, so they did.

Does the Hebrew word used actually mean `day` anyway? Translations are always flawed.

If it did, could Jews back then use it in the same way `day` can be used in English, to mean any amount of time? `back in the day`, `in my day`, `in Caesar`s day`, etc.

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Male 156
[quote]The bible is actually meant to be taken quite literally. More recent interpretations of the bible kinda show that.[/quote]

Isn`t that kind of a contradiction?

I think no one has the last word about the Bible. (And if someone does, what are their credentials?) They`re just some random texts from Hebrew lore.

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Male 179
Greatjob, it doesn`t, but I do believe it`s implied. And it`s logical.

God creating the earth in 7 days and fossils and the like disprove it = Illogical
God using evolution to create over a vast amount of time therefor having the evidence of evolution = Logical.

And it would make I explained it in my earlier post. If God is All powerful and ever present, it would make sense that he lives outside time.

He doesn`t age, he`s forever, the beginning and the end.

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Male 2,309
Angilion, what the hell are you talking about? lol
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Male 2,309
Who the hell gets a PhD in BIOLOGY? How can you get a PhD in an entire branch of science?
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Male 12,365
Greatjob: If I do end up judged by your god, as you see them, I hope I`ll have the opportunity to show the contempt I have for them. Your god as you see them is a deranged, vicious tyrant who makes any nutjob human dictator seem like Gandhi. Caligula would look at your god and say "Whoa, you`re over the top".

Then, if I had time, I`d ask them to teach you English.

Of course, if I was like your god, I`d probably torture you for eternity for the crime of trying to downgrade a human language. At least I`d have some justification, unlike your god.

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Male 2,309
Not to be mean, Johnny, but he is right. The bible is actually meant to be taken quite literally. More recent interpretations of the bible kinda show that.

Love thy neighbor doesn`t mean what it used to back then--it meant love thy fellow Hebrew, but clearly it is okay to kill everyone else. Only later was it amended because clearly you can`t go around doing that anymore. We have to learn to get along! Too many to kill, I guess.

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Male 2,309
"SPrinkz u say theres no intention if God created this earth.Gen1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground." The painter has intention just like God does."

I don`t get it. Are you unfamiliar with logic? All you are proving is that God has intention. Not that God created man. Man is without intention. If God is so brilliant, why do I pee out of the same place that I also eject my genetic material? That must have been of some SERIOUS cosmic intelligence to put that all in one spot. lol

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Male 32
JohnnyK123, Please do show me where it says in the bible that God used 7 days as a figurative number and that He actually created everything over a much longer time. And where does it says He`s outside of time?
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Male 179
GosuPaul: Haha I understand completely. I could see where one might see negative undertones with it, I meant nothing negative by it.

I do apologize for any offense you might have taken indirectly. :)

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Male 32
SPrinkz u say theres no intention if God created this earth.Gen1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground." The painter has intention just like God does.
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Male 156
1. Why are you poeple discussing evolution? Have any of you got a PhD in biology? Please understand that for all intents and purposes, evolution, in layman terms, is just the observation that organisms change over time and animals were different before than they are now. No need to get too specific.

2. Why are you people discussing religion? Am I missing something and there is actually some kind of association that has the last word in the interpretation of the scriptures? Or is anyone of you a doctor in theology? Does it really matter if God(TM) exists? Aren`t morality and ethics man-made constructs? Isn`t spirituality at the reach of everyone regardless of culture?

3. ????

4. Profit

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Male 12,365
[quote]either way, im still scared as hell of death. either there is nothingness (which i do not believe as peaceful, its depressing)[/quote]

If there`s nothing, you won`t know it because you won`t exist. So it`s not like eternity floating around in nothing. It`s game over, no more you to worry about anything.

As for an afterlife, that could be anything. Maybe we`re all immortal higher beings who have chosen to live a limited, mortal and thus radically different life as a learning experience, or maybe just through sheer boredom. Maybe when we die here, we return to our higher existence to spend a few millenia pondering what we`ve learned as a mortal.

Maybe we`re aliens, Earth is all a virtual reality and it only takes a couple of hours in reality. Maybe when we "die" in this game, we return to the real world, check our score and watch TV.

We don`t know. All we do know is that this life is real as we perceive it. Live life - it`s not a rehearsal.

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Male 179
Greatjob, I honestly do feel bad for arguing against you, due to you being the only one arguing anymore, and we`re both Christians with different views, however, I honestly have no clue what you`re trying to accomplish.

Your bible quote from Genesis didn`t relate to Sprinkz counter-argument in the slightest.

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Male 32
JohnnyK123, Please do show me where it says in the bible that God used 7 days as a figurative number and that He actually created everything over a much longer time. And where does it says He`s outside of time?
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Male 516
"And Gosupaul, I wasn`t implying it was a bad thing, it`s actually rather clever. I`d do it if given the chance. Lol."

Ah, gotcha. =)

Usually when people speak of others in terms of profit, it`s in a negative connotation so you`ll have to understand my thinking.

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Male 12,365
[quote] it makes a lot more sense than what you`re trying to say, which I still haven`t figured out.[/quote]

So...you don`t understand my argument but you`ve decided it`s wrong anyway. Well, there`s faith for you.

Your counter-argument relies on the assumption that radically different natural laws can apply within the tiny part of the universe that we can observe.

I think that assumption is utterly unfounded.

It is not a matter of dividing the observable universe into a billion parts and having each one exist independently, which is what is required to meet your idea of a billion billion-sided dice each rolling the same value. There is no reason to think that`s true.

One roll - right value creates the universe, wrong value doesn`t. You get an unknown number of rolls, maybe an infinite number. In all the observable universe, the same fundamental rules apply - one roll, not a billion rolls.

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Male 32
SPrinkz u say theres no intention if God created this earth.Gen1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground." The painter has intention just like God does.
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Male 179
Greatjob, I`d love to show you were you are wrong, but Sprinkz beat me there.

Please give me another illogical argument.

And Gosupaul, I wasn`t implying it was a bad thing, it`s actually rather clever. I`d do it if given the chance. Lol.

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Male 179
Greatjob, I was born into a non-religious family, became Catholic a few years back.

I believe what most Christians believe, expect I am what you would call an "ancient earth creationist" I believe that the earth is millions upon millions of years old.

I believe that the 7 days that is referred to in the old testament is a figurative number and that genesis is to be taken as such.

My argument consists of this:

God is omni-present and omni-potent, he is all powerful and ever-present. Due to this he exists outside time and space, and the laws of time do not apply to him because of his very nature.

If time does not apply to an ever-present and all powerful God, then how could 7 days apply? Perhaps it wasn`t meant as 7 "human" days, but rather a number that only applies to God himself.

It`s harder to explain due to the fact it`s 2am here and I am rather tired, however, I will stay up and read responses.

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Male 2,309
"Let me ask u all a simple question, when u see a painting how do u know there was a painter? uve never seen him, or maybe dont even know his name. But theres evidence that it was created, same with everything we see today, theres is a creator to this univers. Just like with a painting, there has to be a painter."

Yeah, William Paley`s argument changed from a watch and a watch maker to a painting and a painter. It still sucks. That`s like 200 years old. Please update your arguments.

The reason why it sucks, is because a painting has intention. A snowflake doesn`t--the way sand sits on a beach doesn`t--evolution has no intention either, but the system exists, and works, and you can say it doesn`t until you`re red in the face, but the irony of it is that you are an evolved system.

It`s funny how people can`t appreciate their complexity.

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Male 2,309
"it`s not a weak argument. it makes a lot more sense than what you`re trying to say, which I still haven`t figured out. I`m saying it makes more sense that a superbeing willed everything to work the way it does"

Occam`s razor disproves your hypothesis.

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Male 32
Johnnyk123 u say u are a christian? What do u believe? Show me where Im wrong instead of doing a comentary on what I said.
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Male 2,309
Bleh, I just wish I could bring these people over to my side. Unfortunately you cannot convince a creationist--only skeptics.
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Male 516
"Although I do agree with your statement. Seems that Fancy is seeking more traffic to increase pay via advertising. "

If you`re implying that there`s something wrong with that, well... Think again.

Also, I agree that Greatjob`s being a complete idiot. The watchmaker analogy (or in his case, the painter analogy) is ridiculous. It`s the epitome of blind assumption.

Coincidence is our watchmaker.

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Male 2,309
"insanely delicate the universe is and yet it all seems to work together perfectly"

I disagree so intensely. Most of the universe is just plain stupid. Most stars lose so much energy that it is pointless--the entire universe is pointless. It will eventually go into a complete death where nothing can interact anymore--those electrons and protons, etc. will be unable to interact anymore after an incredibly long time, but still.

Plus, it only seems that way because you evolved inside the system. Your deduction skills aren`t very sharp.

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Male 179
Greatjob, if spelling incorrectly were sinful you`d be the first in line to hell.

Throwing bible quotes at people who don`t believe in God won`t do squat. Furthermore your argument doesn`t hold water.

All you`re doing is deconstructing what some of us other Christians are trying to build. Some peace, and co-existence. You`re invalid argument is embarrassing.

Either post something intelligent or don`t post anything at all.

And Lemming, it really doesn`t disprove creation, it disproves the 7 day creation theory. Although I do agree with your statement. Seems that Fancy is seeking more traffic to increase pay via advertising.

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Male 32
Let me ask u all a simple question, when u see a painting how do u know there was a painter? uve never seen him, or maybe dont even know his name. But theres evidence that it was created, same with everything we see today, theres is a creator to this univers. Just like with a painting, there has to be a painter.(Gen1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.) R u a good person? if u think u are ask urself these questions. Have u ever lied? if someone lies to u, u would call them a liar correct? so if uve lied u r a liar. have u ever stolen? Same thing only ud be a theif even if uve only stolen one thing.(Matt5:2828But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.) Have u lusted? well if uve done any of these(trust me ive done all these countless times) u r a lying,adulterous theif. And thats only 3 of the 10comandments. would u go to heaven or hell?
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Male 32
I would totaly go to Hell, if u broke a law here in the US u would have to pay a fine, thats the same with Gods law. Only thing is what if u have a fine here today that u absolutly couldnt pay? U couldnt just say sorry judge i wont do it again, and be set free. or the judge would be unjust. U have to pay that fine but what can u do? well lets say a man walks in and offers to pay that fine for u? Well thats what Jesus did for u 2000 years ago, He lived a perfect life that we couldnt and died so that we might live.(Romans5:8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.) So the offer is on the table ur not forced to take the gift. But if u dont, u will be charged that fine that u CANNOT PAY.
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Male 633
i don`t understand how this disproves creation.
it seems like this website has just turned into a giant flamewar...
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Male 179
Farsidedown, I can understand where you`re coming from, and I agree with some aspect of what you`re saying, I would ask how what you`re saying ties in with this story?

Evolution, and the Big Bang have absolutely nothing in common with each other. They are literally 2 different things.

I`m also having great difficulty grasping your "dice" argument. It`s not about the chances of something being created,because there was an equally great chance that through the Big Bang something else could have been created. What is now, just happens to be the lucky outcome.

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Male 689
i`m so sick of people talking evolution vs. creationism like theyre mutually exclusive ideas. it`s just ridiculous childish polarization, and it needs to stop.

that being said, hurr durr i are on intarnet

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Male 421
Angilion:

it`s not a weak argument. it makes a lot more sense than what you`re trying to say, which I still haven`t figured out. I`m saying it makes more sense that a superbeing willed everything to work the way it does, than that everything turned out perfectly, with no evidence of flaws. (In other words, with only one shot, trillions upon trillions of factors all worked perfectly, simultaneously. we could still see all the other chances where other parts of the universe that have absolutely no bearing on our own existence didn`t turn out perfectly, and yet we don`t because the flaws just don`t exist.) This isn`t a "roll the dice enough times and eventually you`ll roll a billion sixes in a row". This is, "here`s a billion billion-sided dice, you have to roll them all at once and if you roll a single one, they all have to be one. no do-overs".

Until scientific fact contradicts my beliefs, I think I`ll just stick with my beliefs. I think odds are on my sid

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Male 7,834
either way, im still scared as hell of death. either there is nothingness (which i do not believe as peaceful, its depressing), or ill be punished by some god for not following his rules. death is going to suck. i really hope that i find a way to live forever.
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Male 179
I want the ability to edit my post! Writing quickly, minus proof reading is fail.
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Male 179
I`m a devout Catholic, and I believe evolution occured, why is it so hard for other Christians to come to believe what I was taught in Sunday school?

Just because evolution happened doesn`t disprove God`s existence, yet, there isn`t anyway to confirm that he exists either.

I believe that you should follow your own personal convictions, and that to throw what you think at other people is ridiculous.

I`ve known many a christain to try and force others to believe in God, yet, I`ve known just as many Atheists that have tried to convice me that God doesn`t exist, just for the sake of having me not believe.

I believe that when the time comes, we will all find out what is truth.

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Male 12,365
[quote]I`m just trying to get you to think how insanely delicate the universe is and yet it all seems to work together perfectly, and question why that all is.[/quote]

That`s a much weaker argument than it might first appear, for the simple reason that if the universe didn`t work we wouldn`t be here to ask why it works. If there was one sequence of events in which leads to us existing and 10^24 which don`t, we could only see that one in a million million million million chance.

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Male 1,406
The problem with the creationist side of any argument is it just says: I see problems in your theory, and therefore it isn`t perfect.

Since there will always be a type of science where we aren`t 100% sure on its inner workings, there will always be people who say that the inner workings are unable to be explained through normal empirical means and that therefore the proper move is to turn to a force outside observation. It`s important for people to constantly strive to prove things through logic, and when the scientific method doesn`t cover every base, we just need to look further. Creationists keep scientists on their toes - it is important to be able to defend every aspect of an argument.

What was my point here? I forget.

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Male 734
Science!
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Male 421
continued (got cut off)

...why that all is. some will say, well it was just always there and managed to work on its own. others will say it was God or Allah or whatever deity. Will we ever know for sure either way? Unless the rapture or whatever religious endgame scenario comes about in our lifetime...no.

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Male 421
I`m saying it takes more faith to believe that all matter was always just there and through random chance, it all developed similar rules as to how it functioned (like how gravity is absolute throughout the universe and all molecules are held together when atoms share electrons or even how everything actually operates in dimensions the same) without any evidence of the failed rolls of the cosmic dice than for me to believe that some all powerful superbeing that exists outside of time and space got bored and decided to bring everything ever into existence with said rules.

I`m not disputing science here (unless it`s in regards to the origins of the universe, but those are all improvable theories anyways) and I`m certainly not going to be that guy that responds to someone`s recovery from cancer or whatever with screams of "it`s a miracle!", I`m just trying to get you to think how insanely delicate the universe is and yet it all seems to work together perfectly, and question wh

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Male 170
I tried submitting this but it didn`t get through. Before you enter the debate.. Please. Just watch this: Instruction Manual For Life
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Male 8,300
> NOFX14
> Creationists... so smart and chock full of scientific knowledge

First sensible thing I`ve ever read on IAB.

Oh, of course I`m ignoring the bits of your sentence that don`t fit with my Beliefs, are required by Section A3 of the Christian Manual.

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Male 2,309
That pretty much nails it. These people will never accept anything other than the conclusions that they want.

It`s sad, because their model functions well enough to get through life [for the most part], but is disruptive enough to crush new understanding.

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Male 203
I think House said it best when he said: "If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people."
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Male 2,309
Bleh, I just wish I could bring these people over to my side. Unfortunately you cannot convince a creationist--only skeptics.
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Male 2,309
My bad Darren. I think it has some granite, but yeah, it is predominately sandstone.
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Male 1,141
Oh and SprinkZ, very impressive argument. It`s nice to see an actually informed voice every once and a while.
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Male 1,141
Creationists would come back with an argument full of intellect and logic as usual, like "No you`re wrong, God made the proteins come to life because he`s the best." They`re just so smart and chock full of scientific knowledge. Sigh...
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Male 3,369

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Male 12,365
Damn the ~980 character limit!

Some people are confusing evolution and the theory of evolution.

Evolution is a process. It exists. It can be observed happening and has been, many times by many people. It is as much a fact as rain or wind or any other natural process.

The theory of evolution is an explanation of evolution, based on available evidence. It is strongly supported by that evidence and appears to be true.

They`re very much not the same thing.

Creationism is an example of theists "explaining" anything they don`t understand with "<insert god or gods here> did it". Which is why I find it both irritating and amusing when they say scientists are arrogant. Proclaiming that your answer must be correct because you say it is, no evidence required, is far more arrogant than examining evidence, formulating an explanation from that evidence and judging the explanation in accordance with the strength of the evidence.

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Male 601
@Angilion, agreed.

There is a difference between knowledge and beliefs. I "know" that evolution is a true phenomenon because there is testable evidence in support of it, whereas there are many other things we have no empirical evidence for, and thus are relegated to the status of being a "belief"

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Male 299
Oh goodie, entertainment!
Maddog, can I have some of that popcorn?
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Male 12,365
[quote]Isn`t evolution a faith actually (regarding the origin of the universe)?[/quote]

Evolution is not a faith because it is proven to exist and faith is belief without evidence, let alone proof. Also, evolution has nothing to do with the origin of the universe.

[quote]All these facts from fossils and w/e are seen in the light of the theory of evolution from what I can tell.[/quote]

Many key findings from fossils, such as their age, have nothing to evolution. Also, the theory of evolution is not evolution and it has far more evidence behind it than most people would require to consider something to be fact.

[quote]Then again, it`s impossible to take a neutral stance between Creation and Evolution[/quote]

Probably true, so I go with the evidence. Evolution exists. That is fact. The theory explaining evolution is very strongly supported by evidence. Creationism is no different to people in the past "explaining" lightning as a weapon of the gods.

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Male 601
SPrinkZ, just thought I`d point out that the grand canyon is mostly made of sandstone, not granite. Your point is still quite valid though, as sandstone is fairly tough too.
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Male 8,300
Maddog just took over from Davy as my Personal Hero.

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Male 2,309
"What`s the physical evidence for the theory of evolution? If your answer was fossil records, how`d they get the age from the fossils and were absolutely sure that that answer was correct? I think the fossils and the Grand Canyon was made through the Flood"

Btw, if you want my proof of evolution. Just ask all the people who have cancer. That is evolution at work.

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Male 2,309
"I`m not trying to make anyone accept my ideas. And a few years ago, my science teacher played a vid from this guy pouring water from a hose into this box with rocks or sand and w/e and showed that the water never flow straight. It curved alot like the Grand Canyon. You can easily replicate that experiment"

That`s great--that makes sense, except for one thing. The Grand Canyon is made up of granite--it would take millions of years before it could be carved by mere water--which is approximately how long it took.

Granite is really hard. Plus, there are more factors than just water that can carve out the canyon like that. Earthquakes certainly could help, or other seismic activity.

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Male 2,309
"In the latter case, if the changes happened really fast, then we shouldn`t worry about polar bears and seals going extinct since they`ll just evolve to adapt to the melting ice caps and the offspring of wounded soldiers should be more resistant to bullets than other people"

That`s retarded. Evolution is very slow, and often a process of destruction. Also, your last point is Lamarckism evolution. Which is asinine. It is like saying that if you chop off your foot then your children will be born without feet. Obviously that is wrong. The genetic information you will pass on is all stored in your sperm, or your egg if you are female.

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Male 2,309
" This means that the parents, who haven`t evolved, can survive which really kills the point of evolving altogether if they can still live in the changed environment. It sounds bs that they know the future and evolve beforehand to become hospitable to that future"

That`s not even remotely close to evolution. A lot of animals do not adapt and die--the ones with the slight advantage tend to reproduce and past down their traits to their children. But what destroyed the other animals was a selection pressure--you have to realize that evolution works in tandem with its environment.

Things evolve based on the environment--not on some intuition about the change about to occur. The most fit organisms are the ones that can adapt the quickest.

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Male 730
Gomay = ignorance just sayin`.
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Male 3,369

I`m just sitting back, enjoying the ignorance!

My reply to people who think they know everything from now on shall be thus:


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Male 2,309
To say I am human is ridiculous. To say that something isn`t is also ridiculous. These names don`t really mean anything--we are in a sense constantly changing, so if you were able to build up the entire fossil record and every living thing on this planet it would look sort of like things just shifting into different forms. It wouldn`t seem as punctuated as most TV would make you believe.
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Male 2,309
" In the former case, wouldn`t we go extinct before conforming to survive? As the animal planet shows, baby chimps can`t survive by themselves. This means that the parents, who haven`t evolved, can survive which really kills the point of evolving altogether if they can still live in the changed environment."

I don`t even understand this. Everything evolved together on this planet. And sometimes when the continents merged, or new animals were able to access places that were niches for other animals the new animals will wipe them out--they out compete them.

And you`re right, a baby chimp cannot survive by itself--our ancestors and chimps both are social creatures--the whole species thing is really kind of absurd too. Many people view evolution as this punctuated thing--but if you want to be more accurate we are actually connected to all living things through a germline. Peas and cows are related--so are you.

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Male 2,309
But, if you think about things from cosmological time, you have about 1 billion years before we even GET the first single celled organism. Then sexual reproduction as we understand it comes about another billion years later. So think about it--the lifespan of one of these organisms back then probably wasn`t like the lifespan of a human. They didn`t undergo mitosis as quickly--but imagine at least a billion generations have passed--that`s a billion mutations between billions or trillions of different possibilities--99% of them failing. We are the zenith of it all. We are the ones that survived--that weren`t terminated. You have to realize that most mutations are failures or are neutral. But some result in a protein being made that is better than the parents original protein. Which may give it a slight edge at breaking down particular things or doing different functions. A good example is Nylonase. A recently evolved enzyme.
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Male 2,309
To continue--macro evolutions can happen. But are almost always useless, or dangerous, rarely are they ever good, but it is possible. Antennapedia is a form of macro mutation where a particular gene for the body plan is activated and instead of the fruit fly growing antennae out of its head it grows legs. That is an example of a macro mutation, and it can happen in one step.

Micro mutations are literally the same thing, but their effects are less pronounced, or do not change the overall body plan, or features too much. Macro and micro mutations are not different at all. Mutations are mutations. Differentiating the two is one of the biggest problems. We give people angles to attack that do not even exist--but only exist in their ignorance, or in their ability to twist facts or yield to half the truth and deny the rest.

The current mutational rate is pretty slow--it may have been faster, but it`s about 1.5 per embryo.

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Male 2,309
"Macroevolution is kinda bs since, if it`s made of multiple microevolutions, that must mean either the microevolutions happened slowly over a long time or super fast in a short time."

To begin, I am going to say I don`t feel that anyone who has your point of view is unintelligent, or incapable of understanding what I am about to elucidate--but you are clearly uninformed. Accept it, and you will be enlightened, and wiser.

Anyway, to begin: You have a problem in your thinking. You have a dichotomous thought process. You think black, or white. Up, or down. Right, or left. There are more possibilities in evolution and more to it than left or right...in fact, the possible number of humans is greater than the number of atoms in the universe. That`s just HUMANS. We are not talking about the possible combinations for ALL life. That number is ridiculously large.

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Male 2,309
Gomay, I am going to destroy every single argument you have. Just give me a few minutes...
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Male 690
@kawa

I`m not trying to make anyone accept my ideas. And a few years ago, my science teacher played a vid from this guy pouring water from a hose into this box with rocks or sand and w/e and showed that the water never flow straight. It curved alot like the Grand Canyon. You can easily replicate that experiment

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Male 690
Macroevolution is kinda bs since, if it`s made of multiple microevolutions, that must mean either the microevolutions happened slowly over a long time or super fast in a short time. In the former case, wouldn`t we go extinct before conforming to survive? As the animal planet shows, baby chimps can`t survive by themselves. This means that the parents, who haven`t evolved, can survive which really kills the point of evolving altogether if they can still live in the changed environment. It sounds bs that they know the future and evolve beforehand to become hospitable to that future

In the latter case, if the changes happened really fast, then we shouldn`t worry about polar bears and seals going extinct since they`ll just evolve to adapt to the melting ice caps and the offspring of wounded soldiers should be more resistant to bullets than other people

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Male 690
What`s the physical evidence for the theory of evolution? If your answer was fossil records, how`d they get the age from the fossils and were absolutely sure that that answer was correct? I think the fossils and the Grand Canyon was made through the Flood
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Male 3,332
"So, this proves evolution... how? These bacteria may be `evolving` but they`re STILL THE SAME BACTERIA. This only proves micro-evolution, evolution within a species, which has been proven before. However, there is NO proof for macro-evolution, or the evolving to a `higher` species."
There is tons of evidence of macro-evolution. One species evolving into another. As for the `higher` species, there is evidence that we came from the same ancestors that other primates had (but not from other primates), but since we are the only `higher` species, there isn`t a whole lt of evidence of that happening.
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Male 3,332
"...he specifically stated he created everyone as is and that the earth is...young." I`ve always looked at that as a parable. There are so many cases in the Bible of stories being told to make a point. God Himself did it as Jesus on a regular basis. Why wouldn`t he have done it as The Father when transmitting His word to the people who wrote down His words?

Or, another way to look at it would be that we`re told, constantly, that we can`t understand His plan, or Him. Perhaps, when His word was given to "us", it was not fully understood, and got distorted. That would help to explain the differences in the stories of Creation in the Bible.

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Male 2,591
omg lies! god did it! lalalalalala can`t hear you lalalala godgodgodgod!
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Male 10
So, this proves evolution... how? These bacteria may be `evolving` but they`re STILL THE SAME BACTERIA. This only proves micro-evolution, evolution within a species, which has been proven before. However, there is NO proof for macro-evolution, or the evolving to a `higher` species.
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Male 690
Isn`t evolution a faith actually (regarding the origin of the universe)? All these facts from fossils and w/e are seen in the light of the theory of evolution from what I can tell. Then again, it`s impossible to take a neutral stance between Creation and Evolution
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Male 373
FLAME WAR!!!!
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Male 17,511
No big deal here folx, Viruses do the same thing. This is not a good thing, Because it means fighting brain diseases (which these things cause) is going to be much harder than they thought.

The mechanism that does this is still not known. Until it is, People with Alzheimers and such are pretty much screwed.

Btw, Adaptation is not the same as evolution. These things are NOT becoming a new species.

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Male 3,842
There is no point in discussing religion since religion is a matter of faith. "Faith" means belief in the absence of factual evidence. No amount of factual evidence proving the theory of evolution is overwhelmingly supported scientifically will ever change someone`s faith, so why bother? They`ll just say "God" made the prions able to spontaneously reproduce like that.
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Male 309
el somb- except thats a totally one way relationship, theres nothing to embrace in Christianity, it hasnt been proven. wasted days praying to a hypocritical god? ill pass.
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Male 14,331
Don`t say I didn`t warn you people.
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Female 70
I`m not really concerned about the creationism vs. evolution discussion. I just think it`s a really interesting discover both from a medical and veterinary (Mad Cow Disease and Scrapies) stand point.
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Female 15,763
WE ARE ALL IGNORING THE REAL ISSUE HERE! This is CLEARLY a sign of the incoming zombie apocalypse.
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Male 716
You know... there are fields of science trying and proving the existence of afterlife...

Maybe those who embrace science fully and shun religion should in fact be the ones to examine what they`re believing in.

For the two are one and the same. Different meathods, is all.
____________________________

Though I may be technically Christian, I don`t have any real qualms with science and in fact embrace it.

New life-saving medication? Bring it on!

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Female 525
Although my favorite type of theists are the ones who don`t bible thump and open their minds to science instead of outright denying it, the entire reason why most people don`t associate evolution with God`s plan is because he specifically stated he created everyone as is and that the earth is ridiculously young. So either the God from the bible and how other religions describe him does NOT exist, or he does exist in a much different form. If a God does exist I seriously deny him to be some sort of human, rather I expect him to be some sort of a strange mass of particle that can create matter out of nothing.

Those are just ifs though. I still firmly remain an atheist.

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Female 449
Hell, I feel stupid saying this (since in no way do i want, or am ready to die) but here goes... I look at the afterlife as complete nothingness, kinda like cobrakiller said... but its not bad, its more like the "Ultimate" peace isnt it? For me, that peace would be kinda like heaven...
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Male 7,834
i dont know why this had to turn into a religious argument. this article was terrifying enough without you people making me think about death and the hereafter. im not a religious person but i can see why anybody would be; the thought of you as a being ending upon death is an horrible thought. nobody wants to end; your thoughts, your feelings, everything you are, just gone never to be again. that is enough to make me want to believe, i just have trouble actually doing it.
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Female 449
Oh and by the way anyone who is even bringing up the topic of religion in this section, YOU are the type of people who cause society to move backwards, YOU are the person stopping scientists from developing life-saving medicine.... Get over your own inflated sense of Morality and go out and get AIDS.
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Male 25,416
religion and evolution! why so serious?
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Female 449
Wow, im telling you... after studying Biology for so long this is HUGE for me! Diseases that replicate similar to viruses but at a simpler level?? God, I bet theres going to be massive breakthroughs in medicine if we are ever able to harness that cellular process..
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Male 226
It`s always the creationists move..
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Male 3,332
"Er, I`m pretty sure there isn`t." I did some quick research, and I have to admit it appears that for now at least, you are right. Why you say it`s the last thing we`ll discover, I don`t know. I do know they are trying to discover it, however.
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Male 156
[quote]"here`s one for ya...where did all matter come from? where did it all originate? how did subatomic (and the sub-subatomic particles that form them) particles form and how did these laws come about that govern the way they interact? if you think that anything and everything ever just came into existence by chance, then you definitely have more faith than I ever possibly could."

There`s a scientific theory for that. I don`t know it, but I do know that science has an answer for it.[/quote]

Er, I`m pretty sure there isn`t... that will be the last thing mankind discovers. If it ever does.

As for the original post. Why does it requires more "faith" to believe everything originated by chance than believing a sentinent omnipotent being had anything to do with it? It`s too random anyway you see it. The universe is too random...

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Female 1,190
pssh, everyone is freaking out over religion on this topic? you guys should be getting your zombie plans together, com one guys, get on the ball!
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Male 690
@Rick_S

There`s actually a form of Christian that believes the same way you do (God used evolution). I keep forgetting the name though lol....Evolutionary Creationists?

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Male 2,440
[quote]if you think that anything and everything ever just came into existence by chance, then you definitely have more faith than I ever possibly could.[/quote]

Uber fail

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Male 2,440
Evolution schmevolution. I`m still waiting for glow-in-the-dark puppies!... Wait a second.
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Male 10,440
Creationists are stupid. Its not worth arguing with them.
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Male 4,546
Also, props to Janus games for mentioning compsci work into this before I did, sorry I missed it.
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Male 4,546
Does anyone even read the articles before posting them?

Conway`s game of life can demonstrate basic traits of evolution given the correct parameters as can many other cellular automata programs.

However, this does not in any way have any bearing on a creationists argument. Nor does this article, nor the science behind it.

Even I, as an evolutionist, can understand that.

If you want to make an argument, THE ARGUMENT HAS TO BE GOOD, you can`t just have a conclusion then toss poo around like gibbons in a playground, and submit it as your thesis for why you`re right.

You`re just giving your opponents fuel, and look like an idiot to boot.

Is evolution real: Yes.
Have you understood any of the article other than the word evolution appears in it: No.

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Male 2,855
call me crazy but i think god made the lifeless prions change.
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Male 690
One thing I`d like to point out is that, the arguments are usually science vs. religion. Religion isn`t supposed to deny science. It`s supposed to provide a basis for science (pretty sure there`s a better word and/or phrase to describe but I can`t think of it atm).
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Male 489
Deviros
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
31 Posts Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:53:28 AM
The overall "Theory of Evolution" that everything started from just one soup? Whatever. I would think that that would take even longer than this planet has been here - hell longer than the solar system has.
---------------------------------------------------------------

who says it started on this planet? ;)

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Male 535
Who`s to say that God didn`t allow for evolution on a certain scale? I mean, as complex as the gene structure is, it would be folly to expect "small-scale" evolution at the very least to be untrue - Evolution is seen on a day to day basis.

The overall "Theory of Evolution" that everything started from just one soup? Whatever. I would think that that would take even longer than this planet has been here - hell longer than the solar system has.

Oh - and adding "Your move Creationists" to the end makes you sound like an idiot and a jackass.

No one`s playing chess.

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Male 3,332
PS: My Does religion have an answer for that question was meant sincerely, not sarcastically. I don`t know if religion has an answer for where God comes from or how He was made. Does religion have an answer to that question?
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Male 3,332
"here`s one for ya...where did all matter come from? where did it all originate? how did subatomic (and the sub-subatomic particles that form them) particles form and how did these laws come about that govern the way they interact? if you think that anything and everything ever just came into existence by chance, then you definitely have more faith than I ever possibly could."

There`s a scientific theory for that. I don`t know it, but I do know that science has an answer for it.

"just as silly as saying God just happened to come to existence."

Does religion have an answer for that? How did God come into existence, and who created Him?

"No one is right for sure."

People miss this point. Believe what you want, but remember that most likely, you`re wrong about it. Muslims, Jews, and Christians all worship the same God. They can`t all be right. Most of them are wrong. But it`s OK to go on with life as if you are right. That`s faith!

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Male 690
@dragonshadoz

ah but Christians don`t believe that God just suddenly came into existence, He was always there.

I would really like to see scientists replicate the origin of the universe in a small-scale test (obviously).

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Female 4,028
Earsidedown, saying that it`s silly for people to believe that things "just came into existence" is just as silly as saying God just happened to come to existence.
No one is right for sure. We don`t know anything.
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Male 3,369
flingspoo
Female, 18-29, Western US
340 Posts Thursday, January 7, 2010 11:22:18 AM
Why do they keep putting poo like this up. I didn`t come here to discuss religion. I came to be amused.
--------------------------------------------------

We do it to annoy you. Glad to see it`s working!

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Male 2,076
Because Iambored wants controversial discussions.

Controversial discussions = money for them.

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Female 999
Why do they keep putting poo like this up. I didn`t come here to discuss religion. I came to be amused.
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Female 4,039
Because I have nothing worthwhile to add to this discussion, let me just point out the needless apostrophe after Lifeless in this link title.
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Female 15,763
...I gotta go buy some zombie apocalypse survival gear.
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Male 421
here`s one for ya...where did all matter come from? where did it all originate? how did subatomic (and the sub-subatomic particles that form them) particles form and how did these laws come about that govern the way they interact? if you think that anything and everything ever just came into existence by chance, then you definitely have more faith than I ever possibly could.
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Male 2,422
Good point janus. There was a blurb in Discover awhile back where an A.I. program was given an environment and a directive and after 50 generations where the winning (those that survived) eventually evolved into groups of robots. Ones who alerted other robots where "food" (energy) was and others who tricked them into wandering into a trap which "killed" them (draining their battery power) and taking the food. Some even sacrificed themselves to help others. Abrams, Michael. (2008). Robots Evolve And Learn How to Lie. Discover 62
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Male 7,834
rick s, i also see him creating things like prions and viruses as population control mechanisms.
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Male 7,834
of course you dont have to be alive to evolve. look at viruses for example. but the thing is, there is no defense against prions as of now. so knowing they can evolve and mutate makes them more dangerous, and thus, a whole hell of a lot more scary.
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Male 4,807
Jayno >> "That just shows how god IS so great. After all who would have designed that ability into the prion? "

Clearly the terrorists did ,Jayno, the terorists did.

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Male 3,332
I`m not a Christian, but I like to think that if there is a God that created the universe, and all life in it, he did it in a logical way. And for creating life, he did it using evolution. That`s right, if there is a God, I view evolution as His tool.
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Male 330
Where did the prions come from?
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Male 176
My comment was actually a parody showing the typical response I personally would expect from an apologetic theist presented with new evidence for the evolution of life.
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Male 39
"That just shows how god IS so great. After all who would have designed that ability into the prion?" -Jayno

Troll detected.

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Male 294
Life has never been necessary for evolution, whole branches of Comp Sci and Engineering are dedicated to it. We had experiments that showed this in the 60s.

Not entirely sure why this is news, or shocking. There is an evolutionary mechanism wherever there exists:

1) An imperfect copy mechanism
2) Selective pressure

All (1) does is ensure that you get nearby solutions in the solution space and (2) forces the distribution changes.

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Male 14,331
VV But it sounds like prions could evolve to create zombies in their constant quest to destroy brains.
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Male 1,108
This is why only zombies should eat brains.
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Male 813
Jayno, L2T.
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Male 176
That just shows how god IS so great. After all who would have designed that ability into the prion?
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Male 7,834
F***, if they werent scarey enough before, lets give them evolution.
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Female 131
prions are super scary. mother earth is capable of some weird things.
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Male 4,290
Pretty cool. Clever how they copy the change across by altering other normal prions. I love science.
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Male 3,301
"We didn`t start the flame war..."

It was always burnin` since this site`s been churnin...

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Female 3,828
meh
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Female 1,077
We didn`t start the flame war...
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Female 289
Link: Lifeless` Prion Proteins Are Capable Of Evolution [Rate Link] - Scientists can now prove lifeless prion proteins can evolve just like higher forms of life. Your move, creationists.
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