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Date: 12/29/09 09:05 AM

142 Responses to US Senate Passes Healthcare Bill

  1. Profile photo of Pilanus
    Pilanus Male 18-29
    675 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 8:59 am
    Link: US Senate Passes Healthcare Bill - Love it or hate it, It looks like America will be getting Socialized healthcare. Thoughts? Good? Bad? Oh poo!?
  2. Profile photo of lukas1051
    lukas1051 Male 18-29
    3426 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:07 am
    Good, America is finally catching up with the rest of the world.
  3. Profile photo of p0l4r21
    p0l4r21 Male 18-29
    504 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:12 am
    CNN blah hate there reporting.
  4. Profile photo of vegascartman
    vegascartman Male 30-39
    735 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:17 am
    It`s sad. America has lowered it`s standards to the rest of the world.
  5. Profile photo of Isobel
    Isobel Female 18-29
    245 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:21 am
    Well it`s about time! Americans need healthcare more than anybody.
  6. Profile photo of The_Maddog
    The_Maddog Male 30-39
    3369 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:21 am
    lukas1051
    Male, 18-29, Europe
    2640 Posts Tuesday, December 29, 2009 9:07:53 AM
    Good, America is finally catching up with the rest of the world.
    --------------------------------------------------

    Yup. I agree. Tis a good thing! Some wont belive us now but perhaps in time they will come to see it is better than what they have!

  7. Profile photo of Slmmhmmr161
    Slmmhmmr161 Male 18-29
    606 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:27 am
    Congratulations, Teenagers of America! Now, when you go break your arm jumping over a moving car, you won`t have to shell out $150.00 from your part-time job at Abercrombie & Fitch to pay for it!
  8. Profile photo of Elle1987
    Elle1987 Female 18-29
    519 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:32 am
    The only people who will think this is bad will be the people who can afford private healthcare... Until the day comes when someone they love or themselves is seriously ill and they can`t afford to cover the costs or the insurance won`t pay up... It happens.. and when that day comes you`ll be grateful theres healthcare..
  9. Profile photo of _kiersten_
    _kiersten_ Female 18-29
    1682 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:34 am
    Hooray :3 I`m very happy ^_^ Also, I dont see how America "lowered its standards", America is and was, just as bad off as almost every single country...
  10. Profile photo of _kiersten_
    _kiersten_ Female 18-29
    1682 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:36 am
    Also. I want to post this in advance, If you honestly are so against it because its so "socialist" then I hope you realise you are also against things like a education or using the police/fire stations. Because: Everyone gets to use those and are entitled to it, and we pay for it with taxes.
  11. Profile photo of Oystah
    Oystah Female 40-49
    4032 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:36 am
    Mmm-hm - just let me know who to make that check out to.
  12. Profile photo of pixiechick81
    pixiechick81 Female 30-39
    838 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:51 am
    Way to catch up with the rest of the world america!
  13. Profile photo of vegascartman
    vegascartman Male 30-39
    735 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:01 am
    Comparing police services to universal healthcare is absolute idiocy. There is a reason that the U.S. is, by FAR, the pioneers of every major medical advancement in the world and that is because it is privatized. Why do you think the leaders of every major country in the world come HERE for their healcare and not their own countries? It`s because the U.S. healthcare system is the best in the world, bar none. The latest polls show that over 80% of the entire country are happy with the healcare system and those who don`t have insurance can STILL get free healcare RIGHT NOW. This whole thing is nothing more than a power grab of not socialism, but communism. Hold on to your wallets folks, Obama is driving this country into hell on a rail.
  14. Profile photo of fiizok
    fiizok Male 40-49
    591 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:04 am
    The bill passed by the senate doesn`t go far enough to make health care available and affordable to everyone, but it`s a start.
  15. Profile photo of Sigon
    Sigon Male 18-29
    129 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:08 am
    im...yeah, the House of Representatives have already said they won`t pass it...so its back to theose "transparent" back-room deal making sessions to get something passed...btw, socialised healthcare does not work...anywhere...can`t wait to suffer on a waiting list for years for surgery that is needed yesterday...whoo ha
  16. Profile photo of QuaggaLord
    QuaggaLord Female 13-17
    3 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:09 am
    So now I`m going to have to pay for everyone else`s healthcare too? Fantastic! Maybe we can get some of the lazy bums who leech off of the system to start working so they can help my family and I pay for their healthcare!
  17. Profile photo of ggolbez
    ggolbez Male 18-29
    1933 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:10 am
    Oh no! Now people will actually be able to have medical treatment when they need it! People won`t die needlessly anymore! THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!
  18. Profile photo of napolean420
    napolean420 Male 18-29
    50 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:13 am
    its not that most americans are against socialized healthcare, its the crappy bill that they created. our senators hide pet projects in the 1000s of pages of this bill. imo its wasteful and will not help make americans healthier, just create a bigger government and more taxes. anything our government runs is inefficient and wasteful. look at the 3 big postal carrier. UPS, fedex, and united states post office. UPS and FedEx are genarally profitable, USPS has a projected 6.8 billion dollar loss for 09. anything the american government touches turns to crap.
  19. Profile photo of DrVenkman
    DrVenkman Male 18-29
    287 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:13 am
    Took your time, didn`t you? Welcome to civilisation, America. Come on in, the water`s fine.
  20. Profile photo of napolean420
    napolean420 Male 18-29
    50 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:16 am
    plus to get the 60th vote in the senate a nebraska senator had to be bribed. so his state gets special treatment if he votes for it. they will spend all this time and it will be declared unconstitutional because you cant have one state that has different rules.
  21. Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:24 am
    This is what happens when one party dominates an election and controls all levers of government - THEY DO WHAT THEY SAID THEY WOULD DO - BIG FRICKEN SURPRISE...
  22. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:27 am
    Personally I wouldn`t have a problem with national healthcare if there was a public option. This is just a giant taxpayer give-away to big pharma and the insurance industry. If either of those two institutions hadn`t put stock holder profits and CEO salaries before patients we wouldn`t need a healthcare bill. I for one am very disappointed in Obama.
  23. Profile photo of Kamarov
    Kamarov Male 18-29
    91 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:27 am
    "Oh no! Now people will actually be able to have medical treatment when they need it! People won`t die needlessly anymore! THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!"

    What are you babbling about? With socialized health care, it will be the exact opposite. There was a woman in Canada who was having a complication in her pregnancy and that hospital actually told her to check back in in ten months for the scan.

  24. Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:28 am
    Napolean - do you have even the vaguest notion of how politics works? Ever heard of the Missouri compromise? SOME states got treated differently there too...

    Do you understand equal protection? (clearly you don`t because you think this is unconstitutional). Don`t just parrot Republican talking points if you don`t understand the concepts. There is simply NOTHING in the constitution that demands the government spend all money proportionally amoung the states.

    If the government wants to build levies in New Orleans, is it unconstitutional because they aren`t building levies in Utah????? Because that is exactly what you just said....

    Republicans are so devoid of ideas, they have nothing left than confusing the ill informed.

  25. Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:30 am
    Kamarov - I read on the internet once about this guy who was abducted by aliens, and they gave him an anal probe. Then I saw this TV show about child psychics and how they talk to dead people.

    I, like you, believe everything someone puts on the internet.

  26. Profile photo of your0mom
    your0mom Male 13-17
    374 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:32 am
    vegascartman, how do the people without insurance get free health care? that sound EXTREMELY improbable in the U.S. And how the BLOODY HELL is it heading to COMMUNISM! Do you even truly believe in that? because im pretty sure that you need some refreshing on what communism is. If Obama was a bloody communist, i really doubt he would`ve gone this far.
  27. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:34 am
    QuaggaLord, First post to IAB and you show your idiocy. At 13-17 I doubt you`ve ever paid for anything that wasn`t with someone else`s money. You can`t vote so you have no say. STFU until you`re 18 or get an education whichever comes first.
  28. Profile photo of padge
    padge Male 18-29
    11 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:37 am
    "Also. I want to post this in advance, If you honestly are so against it because its so "socialist" then I hope you realise you are also against things like a education or using the police/fire stations. Because: Everyone gets to use those and are entitled to it, and we pay for it with taxes"

    really, i would love to stop paying school taxes, and taxes for police. private education is far superior to public education. and with out school taxes more people would be able to send their kids there. police corruption is also something i would love to stop paying for. in a world where money is power, i would like to hang on to as much money as i make and not give it to a corrupt and bloated government.

  29. Profile photo of Nidonemo
    Nidonemo Male 18-29
    9308 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:38 am
    Isn`t there something in this bill that fines people for NOT choosing to get it?
  30. Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:39 am
    Kamarov - Multiple American doctors have amputated the WRONG LIMBS - shirt happens, but pulling a random example from another country is frankly irrelevant to American health care.

    FUN FACT - it hasn`t sunk in for Republicans yet, but this is a DEVESTATING defeat for them. Democrats have passed something Republicans have resisted for DECADES. They have zero power in the federal government. This was the second longest senate debate in history, and the Democrats WON. AGAIN.

  31. Profile photo of kitwatson
    kitwatson Female 13-17
    364 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:42 am
    Took them long enough.
  32. Profile photo of goaliejerry
    goaliejerry Male 30-39
    4017 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:43 am
    Nidonemo - It isn`t that remarkable, as all states require insurance to drive a car, for example. In the aggregate it will make things cheaper for all since an uninsured person can currently go to the hosptial in an emergency, get treated, have no money to pay his bills, and the hospital - in order to recoup the losses - simply raises prices they charge to insurance companies. PEOPLE WITH INSURANCE CURRENTLY PAY FOR THE UNINSURED.

    So actually, in the bill poor people no longer get a free ride, they HAVE to get their own damn insurance.

  33. Profile photo of Adoras
    Adoras Male 18-29
    265 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:50 am
    iab is always about 5-7 days late on news events. why is that iab? and when will iab find out about the `underwear bomb`?
  34. Profile photo of napolean420
    napolean420 Male 18-29
    50 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 10:55 am
    assuming im a republican because i dont agree with this bill shows ur ignorance.

    anything u say now will be considered commy liberal babble u tool. lol

    i know nothing about the english language because i didnt use proper punctuation.

  35. Profile photo of Wundt
    Wundt Male 40-49
    410 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 11:00 am
    First - The bill is FAR from social health care. The bill is so watered down it may as well not have been passed.

    Second - poll after poll shows that Americans are unhappy with their health care and that they welcome government intervension. Even Republicans have rates has high as 40% in favor. Americans want this, anyone who says the opposite is lying.

    Third - if you have never been seriously ill, then you need to talk to someone who has. Here is my story, my wife cannot get healthcare unless she gets it from her employer, but remaining in a job makes her sicker (meaning she needs more healthcare) and we need her income to pay her deductable and uncovered medical costs. It is easy to feel against it now, but you will change when you or a loved one is sick and the insurance companies are dicking you around.

  36. Profile photo of Pooptart19
    Pooptart19 Male 18-29
    2441 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 11:00 am
    Seeing as how I`m one of the few atheists who isn`t liberal, I am against the Healthcare Bill, but not in some "ZOMG there`s gonna be death panels" kind of way. I know I know, somebody else is going to claim that I`m some neocon [email protected] who is preventing progress and think I`m against the US "catching up with the rest of the world," but that is certainly not the case. My argument is that when the government gets involved in something, 90% of the time it completely ruins it. It warps prices through subsidies and poisons the free market.

    Will there be less medical innovation for the world? Yes. Will the government seek to push even more bullsh*t legislation seeking to controls how we eat and limited out choices? Yes.

    My point is that I know socialized medicine seems great in some forms, but like any other government program, it WILL end up costing way more than originally stated and we will limp on with substandard care and a mountain of bureaucracy.

  37. Profile photo of napolean420
    napolean420 Male 18-29
    50 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 11:01 am
    Nidonemo - It isn`t that remarkable, as all states require insurance to drive a car, for example. In the aggregate it will make things cheaper for all since an uninsured person can currently go to the hosptial in an emergency, get treated, have no money to pay his bills, and the hospital - in order to recoup the losses - simply raises prices they charge to insurance companies. PEOPLE WITH INSURANCE CURRENTLY PAY FOR THE UNINSURED.

    car insurance isnt mandated to protect the policy holder. its for the other drivers. you cant compare the two. at this rate you could be an obama speech writer.

  38. Profile photo of flingspoo
    flingspoo Female 18-29
    999 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 11:23 am
    Poor Obama. He`s so naive. It really is too bad the only person running against him was a retard. Obama`s almost as smart as "W" Bush, only he`s a better speaker.

    Obama is flushing the USA down the toilet.

  39. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 11:24 am
    Why would it result in less medical innovation and higher costs? In Canada, we have lower health care costs then you guys do now and we also are still cranking out the medical innovations (it was here in Hamilton that a lot of the recent breakthroughs in Alzheimer disease came from these past few years).

    My guess is, you guys are scared. Either you are scared of change, or you are scared of your government.

    If it`s fear of change, then grow up and get with the program. If it`s fear of your government, then do something about it.

    Don`t deny basic human rights because you live in fear.

  40. Profile photo of Wildcats2008
    Wildcats2008 Male 18-29
    237 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 11:26 am
    Yes, car insurance is LIABILITY insurance. Meaning if you hit someone else`s car, you pay for it to get fixed.

    Get this, my sister and her husband own a fairly successful small business (15-20 employees) and if all this goes down like it is supposed to, they will not be able to afford to provide health care to all their employees and therefore they will either have to fire all or some of them which would then probably cause their business to go under...oh and they have three kids...

  41. Profile photo of Pooptart19
    Pooptart19 Male 18-29
    2441 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 11:39 am
    My guess is, you guys are scared. Either you are scared of change, or you are scared of your government.

    Why shouldn`t I be afraid of my government? Each day I hear of them spending more money, expanding powers, and limiting my freedoms. I have damn good reasons for fearing my government`s tyranny.

    If it`s fear of change, then grow up and get with the program. If it`s fear of your government, then do something about it.

    Ah yes. Using the government to force people to give up their money to pay for social programs for the sake of being progressive, even if those programs are sinkholes.

    Don`t deny basic human rights because you live in fear.

    Fail fail fail. patchouly, what is your definition of a basic human right? The freedom to do something, or simply a handout from the government?

  42. Profile photo of cjap2011
    cjap2011 Male 18-29
    72 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 11:43 am
    Darwinism: The one`s who can`t afford health care die, those who can live. Its that simple.

    Healthcare is NOT a basic human right. Healthcare is more of a privelige for those who work hard to earn it. I think the problem lies within the health insurance companies, not people being covered. It is the companies that are screwing people over.

  43. Profile photo of vitaliy
    vitaliy Male 18-29
    1668 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 12:04 pm
    "Darwinism: The one`s who can`t afford health care die, those who can live. Its that simple."

    If we were still thinking this way, we`d still be in the Dark Ages. Stop being an idiot.

  44. Profile photo of The_Maddog
    The_Maddog Male 30-39
    3369 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 12:07 pm
    Pooptart19

    Fail fail fail. patchouly, what is your definition of a basic human right? The freedom to do something, or simply a handout from the government?
    ----------------------------------------------------

    Oh come now Poop. Whats YOUR definition? I`d say a basic human right is access to free healthcare and medicine OR at the very leaset a healthcare system that dosnt take your house away just because you get to ill to work. What sort of self centered a$$hole thinks it`s fair that someone can be knocked down and badly injured in a hit and run and then have to pay a huge medical bill just because they where too piss poor to afford insurance to start with. Do you know for a fact that person is "abusing" the system? What sort of person thinks the long term cancer suffer who`s had insurance revoked because he IS longterm suffer is some sort of sponge living off wellfare.


    Please feel free to answer!

  45. Profile photo of tuxman4
    tuxman4 Male 13-17
    368 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 12:10 pm
    Yay change! This is what you guys wanted, isn`t it?
  46. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 12:11 pm
    Is high school closed today? Why are all these children who can`t vote, don`t pay for insurance, medical bills, pharmaceuticals or taxes commenting? STFU and do your homework.
  47. Profile photo of redser99
    redser99 Male 30-39
    114 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 12:14 pm
    I wonder what the stories today would be had the Republicans initiated this bill. I`d think the bill would pass with 70+%.

  48. Profile photo of keith2
    keith2 Male 30-39
    2589 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 12:19 pm
    "Darwinism: The one`s who can`t afford health care die, those who can live. Its that simple.

    Healthcare is NOT a basic human right. Healthcare is more of a privelige for those who work hard to earn it. I think the problem lies within the health insurance companies, not people being covered. It is the companies that are screwing people over."

    wow what a dick. i hope you lose your job. and when you do, and have lost everything, i hope i don`t see you at the doctors. ever. because according to you, you wouldn`t deserve any heathcare.

  49. Profile photo of seabass101dg
    seabass101dg Male 18-29
    478 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 12:21 pm
    actually, high school IS closed today. Its winter break retard :)
  50. Profile photo of Adamam
    Adamam Male 18-29
    111 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 12:22 pm
    Apprently you had some English guy in America on your TV slating the NHS.

    WELL. No one had heard of him until he was on the Most Annoying People of 2009 show.

    The NHS isn`t perfect, but it`s good enough if you live in a good area ^_^

  51. Profile photo of seabass101dg
    seabass101dg Male 18-29
    478 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 12:25 pm
    also: darwinism in everything is good. its what moves everything forward. supporting anything that does not work is usually a bad idea. Health care reform needs to happen in the system itself without the government. It needs to be modeled after Whole Foods insurance system. research it.
  52. Profile photo of Pooptart19
    Pooptart19 Male 18-29
    2441 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 12:29 pm
    The_Maddog, don`t put words in my mouth. I`m not a social Darwinist. Is the current healthcare system in the US drastically flawed? Yes. Do insurance companies form cartels to screw the customers and prevent competition for the best price? Yes. It`s one thing to call something necessary for living and another thing to call it a basic human right. Many people in the US still starve, but does that make food a basic human right? Is it necessary for the government to step in, ration food and make sure that everyone gets it? I am well aware of the problem of insurmountable medical bills. Whenever the payment for a service is covered by a third party (not the consumer) and government legislation limits the freedoms to purchase whatever policy the consumer sees fit by means of attaching it to the employer, prices will be high and the system will only continue to serve the interests of the insurance companies. Put the power in the hands of the consumer and leave the gov`t out of it.
  53. Profile photo of SpacemnSpiff
    SpacemnSpiff Male 18-29
    101 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 12:33 pm
    Can anyone name a US social program that works efficiently and is under budget? All this bill will do is make people depend on the government more and more. I`m starting to see where the term "social fascist" comes from.
  54. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 12:34 pm
    Riiiight pooptart... It`s the 3rd party payment that`s ruined all healthcare in America.. wow
  55. Profile photo of Dextrine
    Dextrine Male 18-29
    483 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 12:42 pm
    We should have natural selection be our government. Total anarchy. If you want something you take it, if you die, you were weak.
  56. Profile photo of deltaumarcus
    deltaumarcus Male 18-29
    1958 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 12:43 pm
    Seabass, Hitler thought the same thing about darwinism
  57. Profile photo of napolean420
    napolean420 Male 18-29
    50 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 12:57 pm
    The_Maddog, don`t put words in my mouth. I`m not a social Darwinist. Is the current healthcare system in the US drastically flawed? Yes. Do insurance companies form cartels to screw the customers and prevent competition for the best price? Yes. It`s one thing to call something necessary for living and another thing to call it a basic human right. Many people in the US still starve, but does that make food a basic human right? Is it necessary for the government to step in, ration food and make sure that everyone gets it? I am well aware of the problem of insurmountable medical bills. Whenever the payment for a service is covered by a third party (not the consumer) and government legislation limits the freedoms to purchase whatever policy the consumer sees fit by means of attaching it to the employer, prices will be high and the system will only continue to serve the interests of the insurance companies. Put the power in the hands of the consumer and leave the gov`t out of it.

    well sai

  58. Profile photo of ElSombrero
    ElSombrero Male 13-17
    716 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 1:01 pm
    Just one comment:

    "The Senate passed a historic -$871 billion- health care reform bill"

    Yes... because we soooo have that kind of money.

    Someone needs to freeze the government`s credit card.

  59. Profile photo of Pooptart19
    Pooptart19 Male 18-29
    2441 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 1:01 pm
    Riiiight pooptart... It`s the 3rd party payment that`s ruined all healthcare in America.. wow

    It`s more than that, madest; Don`t misconstrue what I said. I didn`t only state that it was the third party payment system.

  60. Profile photo of Molehouse
    Molehouse Male 13-17
    303 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 1:25 pm
    If we (ie Britain) can do it right after WW2 when we we`re broke and lying in our own rubble then you can do it too America!
  61. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 1:28 pm
    No way to know something is wrong until it proves to be wrong in which case its to late!
  62. Profile photo of redser99
    redser99 Male 30-39
    114 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 1:33 pm
    My views are simple: Insurance industry, just like banking, is "for profit". Insurance companies "forbaid" the public option in the bill...and won!

    Health care is for everyone and not just the selected few/many that pretend they can afford it. There`s a host of different levels of provisional care available...get basic for everyone...get additional insurance if you want a private room with a TV.

    Further...Try not to get ill.

    Cheers everyone and Happy Holidays!

  63. Profile photo of pomunium
    pomunium Female 13-17
    77 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 1:54 pm
    Apparently my opinion doesn`t count since I`m not of age to vote, but really, if you honestly believe "drat the poor, if they can`t pay for things they can go die", then you`re an ass.
  64. Profile photo of GosuPaul
    GosuPaul Male 18-29
    516 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 1:56 pm
    I would share my opinion, but madest believes that those who can`t vote should stifle their tongues.

    So, I think I`ll say it anyways.

    Socialized healthcare is great; it`s worked great for many other countries and should work great here. Should, is the key word in that sentence. America`s not like every other country in that we think quite differently.

    80 year old male, stage IV cancer. Suggestions?
    America: BLOW `IM UP WITH CHEMO!!
    Europe: Let him die on meds at home.

    Big problem, don`tcha know?

  65. Profile photo of Dad4Life
    Dad4Life Male 50-59
    2086 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 2:24 pm
    an Obama victory, great. He is the most ignorant and arrogant president we have ever had. the SOB can go to hell as far as I am concerned.
  66. Profile photo of patticakes
    patticakes Female 18-29
    463 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 2:31 pm
    No bill is good bill.
  67. Profile photo of sinisterspid
    sinisterspid Female 18-29
    121 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 3:24 pm
    i love not living in america.
  68. Profile photo of napolean420
    napolean420 Male 18-29
    50 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 3:40 pm
    we love u not living here too
  69. Profile photo of GothicQueen
    GothicQueen Male 13-17
    4376 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 3:45 pm
  70. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 3:45 pm
    I liked the bill before the republicans ruined it :/ Now you can hardly say it`s a reform. It just gives more power to the insurance companies...
  71. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 3:50 pm
    And for those who are still screaming "zomgz socialism" with this awful bill, I sure hope you don`t support public schools existing and wish that the police and fire department go back to being "whoever pays gets our services". House burning down? Too effing bad you didn`t pay. Can`t afford school for your kids? Guess your kids will just have to grow up stupid. Been robbed or have a family member murdered? Oh well. Your problem not mine.
  72. Profile photo of Mornaf
    Mornaf Male 18-29
    820 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 3:50 pm
    first off, lol at madest being an idiot down there...,

    secondly, a giant meh from me, though I doubt this will work out in the end, nothing I can personally do to stop it anyway, may as well watch the idea burn.

  73. Profile photo of zanneh
    zanneh Male 13-17
    130 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 4:10 pm
    only a black guy could pull this off..
    Or bill clinton..same thing
  74. Profile photo of napolean420
    napolean420 Male 18-29
    50 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 4:21 pm
    yeah lets run our health care like our underachieving schools. you just made the point for govt to stay out of health care. our govt cant even give away money efficiently lol.
  75. Profile photo of napolean420
    napolean420 Male 18-29
    50 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 4:28 pm
    I liked the bill before the republicans ruined it :/ Now you can hardly say it`s a reform. It just gives more power to the insurance companies...

    how do u even know whats in the bill? its thousands of pages. we will have no idea whats in it until its too late.

  76. Profile photo of QuaggaLord
    QuaggaLord Female 13-17
    3 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 4:31 pm
    madest,you`re right, I can`t vote. And I find it terribly frustrating that I understand what`s going on around me, yet I get no say in what happens. The Government is spending money that we don`t have. At 17, even I understand it`s foolish to spend money you don`t have. If you can`t afford something, you can`t have it, it`s that simple. Maybe our Government should be informed of this? I admit I don`t know everything, but then again, I never claimed I did.
  77. Profile photo of SmilinSam
    SmilinSam Female 18-29
    3599 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 4:52 pm
    i just love baby baked potatoes.
  78. Profile photo of quaintness
    quaintness Male 13-17
    1086 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 4:56 pm
    I lol`d at your post, GQ.
  79. Profile photo of quaintness
    quaintness Male 13-17
    1086 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 4:58 pm
    Also, Godwin`s Law.
  80. Profile photo of miraclewik
    miraclewik Female 18-29
    320 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 5:04 pm
    Quaggalord,
    My Hubby works on a naval ship and I work at a naval hospital. Obama has taken away all the gas money for the ship, so they don`t go anywhere anymore (SCORE for me!). That means no protecting the harbors from pirates, no humanitarian missions for me that literally save thousands of lives in 6-9 months, nothing. So not only do we lose human lives, but we lose the ability to perform these missions and lose out on the good publicity and increased relations with those countries around the world. Would you prefer all countries hate the west like the middle east does? Sounds like someone wants more terrorism (which will be fought on our soil because we don`t have gas money for our planes and warships thanks to you)
    I completely agree in theory that if you don`t have the money, don`t spend it, but it doesn`t work in such large and complicated situations my friend.
  81. Profile photo of lukeforv123
    lukeforv123 Male 18-29
    1058 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 5:04 pm
    I hate myself for voting for him.
  82. Profile photo of luvsushi
    luvsushi Female 18-29
    169 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 5:19 pm
    yes yes yes. ohhhh yes now i can actually see a doctor about this aching knee and my breathing problems...
  83. Profile photo of moefreak
    moefreak Female 18-29
    1963 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 5:26 pm
    I am really, really happy about this bill. Sure, it might not be quite enough, but it`s a big step in the right direction. Tens of thousands more people will have health care coverage, and pre-existing conditions will no longer be an issue.

    @napolean, did you just suggest that it is not the job of the government to make sure its citizens are not starving to death? If so... I disagree. Big time. Just as it is the responsibility of the government to provide education, health care, and safety. How do they provide all this? By collecting taxes. Tadaa.

  84. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 5:29 pm
    I have 2 comments:

    -> He says this will reduce the defect by $1.4T, yet it provides more service to the people for less cost. I`ll be surprised if it delivers.

    -> Your health care system will still be inferior to that of many other western countries.

    ... So, its a step in the right direction, but its a small one, and one that many people still hate.

  85. Profile photo of Fartman51
    Fartman51 Male 13-17
    67 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 5:38 pm
    miraclewik, The Department of Defense in the United States of America has not had a budget cut since World War Two. And it never will be cut, because the American people don`t want it to be. So the "we won`t have gas OH NOES" argument is just bull. And what has likely happened to you guys is a just a hold, giving all of you a chance to rest, recuperate, and get ready to be sent out again soon. Because you will be sent out again, because Obama isn`t stupid enough to "cut the gas money" to any ships protecting free merchants from pirates.
  86. Profile photo of Smileyguy1
    Smileyguy1 Male 30-39
    124 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 5:40 pm
    It`s not a perfect system. As a Canadian who has such luxuries, the lines ups for certain medical services are long - months for MRI / CT Scans, etc. However knowing that I can go see a doctor in a clinic / hospital without worrying about the final cost is peace of mind.

    Case in point - My wife suffered a heart attack 3 years ago at the age of 32. Neither of us were working at the time...do you think we could afford the costs of the whole ordeal??? We figure the 1 week at the hospital would have cost over CAD$100,000. The annual taxes I have to pay is but a small burden to have my wife by my side.

  87. Profile photo of alk3v
    alk3v Male 18-29
    340 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 5:41 pm
    It`s a good plan that will finally put us in the right direction but the financing is what I`m worried about. I don`t like this idea that `the future savings that the plan will bring will pay for the plan`. That sounds like crappy accounting to me. Especially with the nation`s debt so high.
  88. Profile photo of Baelzar
    Baelzar Male 40-49
    1399 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 5:41 pm
    Socialism FTW.

    Next, we go after the smokers, drinkers and fat people.

  89. Profile photo of GosuPaul
    GosuPaul Male 18-29
    516 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 5:53 pm
    "madest,you`re right, I can`t vote. And I find it terribly frustrating that I understand what`s going on around me, yet I get no say in what happens. The Government is spending money that we don`t have. At 17, even I understand it`s foolish to spend money you don`t have. If you can`t afford something, you can`t have it, it`s that simple. Maybe our Government should be informed of this? I admit I don`t know everything, but then again, I never claimed I did. "

    Gotta spend money to make it, babe.

  90. Profile photo of miraclewik
    miraclewik Female 18-29
    320 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 5:55 pm
    Fartman, I never said the DoD lost money, just that certain programs have been cut to manage the war. And yes, we have lost out on certain missions because of gas money because of the added strain on our budget from Obama and his new plans. It`s no hold to rest and recuperate. Nothing short of an emergency will get us out anytime soon. Sure, if there are some people abducted by pirates, we will be there, but we have fewer patrols out PREVENTING the problem. The Navy has been downsizing because we haven`t gotten extra money for an expanding military. People even in the military are losing their jobs for `government convenience`, and others are denied entry when they would have been accepted at the time I joined. My hubby is getting ousted because the Navy doesn`t have enough money to train him to do his job anymore.

    Just because we aren`t exactly losing money doesn`t mean we have enough to go around anymore. OH NOES!

  91. Profile photo of cleminem9919
    cleminem9919 Male 13-17
    383 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 6:07 pm
    Great. another thing to give the government more power, and make it so that people are more alike in the governments eyes. I love it that I as a kid and my parents as well have to pay more on taxes. I love getting to make sure some welfare piece of poo is getting adequate healthcare and my entire family of working people now has to pay more, plus extra for the healthcare we wish to continue having with much better coverage. I hate obama, he is an idiot, WAY worse than bush, and why didn`t we take the time and resources it took to make this plan and open up recycling centers in more states. THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO THINK AND SO DO WE!
  92. Profile photo of moefreak
    moefreak Female 18-29
    1963 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 6:12 pm
    Miraclewik, Obama and his "new plans" (Not sure what you`re referring to) aren`t putting any new strain on the budget. If there is a strain on the budget, you will have to look for someone else to blame, like the people who are responsible for the massive government debt in the first place.
  93. Profile photo of Neagle
    Neagle Male 30-39
    1405 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 6:50 pm
    As long as there is money their will be a qualified doctor working on an off shore island for those who can afford the doctors services. As for the rest of us I can`t wait until Universities are forced to lower their educational standards meet the Governments demand for "equally" trained doctors. Oh wait, to late.
  94. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 7:07 pm
    I find it amazing that, when everyone was making fun of Bush, the Republicans were saying it was wrong to make fun of the president. Saying that he is the president and should be respected, regardless of what he is doing. Now that Obama is in and doing things the Republicans dislike, they are all over it.

    Funny to see how whiny they get when the shoe is on the other foot.

  95. Profile photo of Shellie84
    Shellie84 Female 18-29
    4197 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 7:09 pm
    I`m not going to try understand this too deeply, but what I can gather it`s pretty close to Aus`s Medicare system, right? That`s a good thing, right? Pay a small tax (or large if you`re a millionare) to cover for your healthcare. Payed healthcare = free or low cost treatment... why the hell is everyone complaining??

    People complain that insurance is too high and can barely afford a doctor when they are sick... now something is being done about it they complain again! No pleasing you people :|

  96. Profile photo of HUFFER
    HUFFER Male 30-39
    368 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 7:14 pm
    I think it`s just awful we haven`t used the money (plus 2 trillion) for another pointless war. Sad, am I. :D
  97. Profile photo of mrwnt
    mrwnt Male 18-29
    334 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 7:30 pm
    moefreak: Obama has incurred more debt than all the previous presidents from George Washington to George W combined. He is exactly who should be blamed for straining the budget.

    patchouly: Republicans never said not to hold the president accountable, they said hold him accountable for things that are his fault. Dems like to blame everything they can find wrong with the world on Bush.

    Repubs are holding Obama accountable because he is the direct reason Congress is trying to pass an economy-killing cap-and-tax bill and has passed this unfinanced health bill. He deserves the blame

  98. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 7:47 pm
    Mrwnt, Bush was retarded.
  99. Profile photo of mrwnt
    mrwnt Male 18-29
    334 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 8:04 pm
    The thoughtfulness and reason of your response impress me madest.

    How was he "retarded," as you so subtly put it? Because he couldn`t deliver a speech as smoothly as snake-oil-salesman Obama? Because he stuck by his own moral compass, and didn`t just read what the teleprompter told him to? Because he stood up for the lives of the unborn and stood up to America`s enemies?

    I`d really like to hear your reasoning

  100. Profile photo of SephirothA83
    SephirothA83 Male 18-29
    955 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 8:12 pm
    Anything Obama will pass in his presidency will be flamed repeatedly by repubs for no logical reason whatsoever. Obama could have ended the war, presented Bin Laden in handcuffs to the UN, decreased the deficit, etc, and repubs would still try to get people to hate what hes trying to do for the US. The really bad thing about democracy is that even all those idiots are allowed a vote that is just as valid as the people that think for themselves.
  101. Profile photo of pomunium
    pomunium Female 13-17
    77 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 8:20 pm
    "Obama has incurred more debt than all the previous presidents from George Washington to George W combined."
    mrwnt- sources please.
  102. Profile photo of earthshone
    earthshone Male 18-29
    1688 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 8:46 pm
    I truly enjoy the smell of nag champa.
  103. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:14 pm
    Alright Shellie, so you feel just as enthusiastic about the idea of being FORCED to subscribe to some form of medical care? The cost-saving benefits you describe are only an illusion, since to whatever degree they actually come to fruition (show me a system in which this has been the collective result?) they are MORE than counterbalanced by the issues of scarcity which arise from the very nature of such a system.

    People tend to abuse or take for granted that which comes at no direct cost to them. This means demand becomes artificially inflated, and the services themselves are unable to keep-up since their subsidy is initially static. What this leads to is an inevitable rationing of care, based on arbitrary budgetary and bureaucratic edicts rather that market-based demand (yes, your body is as much an economic unit with cost/benefit considerations to be had as your car, for example).

  104. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:14 pm
    Aside from a government REQUIRING people to financially subscribe to anything which cannot be absolutely construed as a necessary and universal public good (and this cannot, since some people require more or less medical care than others and would otherwise choose accordingly) being entirely unconstitutional (and immoral at that), let`s take that automobile analogy a little further:

    The government already requires us to maintain limited liability coverage in case the operation of our vehicle results in damage to somebody else`s. This is analogous to a necessary public good, as in everybody needing water (government involvement) but taking responsibility for what they consume (the premium as it were). But what do you do when your car isn`t involved in a catastrophic incident, but simply needs minor repairs? A flat tire for instance, or a head-gasket replacement? Do you call your insurance company everytime you need an oil-change?

  105. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:15 pm
    No, of course you don’t! That would be ludicrous, because we recognize such things to be part and parcel of the normal, expected maintenance of one`s vehicle. One’s body is just as reliant upon proper maintenance, so why should you have to go through your insurance company everytime you have the sniffles? Better yet, how would you feel if Uncle Aussie came in and told you that you HAD to purchase a coverage suite for such things as your CAR getting the sniffles, and there was nothing you could do about it except pay a hefty penalty by opting out of said subscription?

    THAT is not an example of a Democratic approach, but a totalitarian one. And it gets even better:

  106. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:22 pm
    Once they take financial responsibility for the maintenance of your health (i.e. funnel monies through their bureaucracy out of other people`s pockets and into your likely excessive cost of coverage), they are then in a position to start demanding changes to your lifestyle, in order to maintain the status-quo and avert changes to what might have started out as a static subsidy rate. This of course never lasts (just like the spending caps we keep raising) not only becuase the government is overseeing itself, but because of the artificial demand curve discussed earlier.

    Subsidy generally begets inflated consumption, and further subsidy only catalyzes that inflation. If you haven`t noticed, that seems to be the quagmire we`re in when it comes to most any other area of government involvement; so why would you expect this to be any different?

  107. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:22 pm
    MOD: Certain of your brethren have shown themselves to be overzealous in enforcing your posting guidelines; especially when it comes to `spam` prevention. Obviously I`m not spamming (though I realize my contribution to this topic to be lengthy), but you must recognize the scope of this issue to encompass far more than 1,000 characters. I would not submit any argument which was not determined to be made as concisely as possible, regardless of its breadth. Thank you.
  108. Profile photo of Wildcats2008
    Wildcats2008 Male 18-29
    237 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:35 pm
    ::Begins a slow clap for Suicism:: Well put my friend...awesome car analogy.
  109. Profile photo of jkuroneko
    jkuroneko Female 18-29
    73 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:51 pm
    *claps* Suicism knows what he`s talking about...
  110. Profile photo of CheeseMan1
    CheeseMan1 Male 18-29
    1408 posts
    December 29, 2009 at 9:59 pm
    It`s times like this I feel that it`s important for me to research economics and see how this sort of system has played out for other countries, how insurance costs have fluctuated throughout US history, and how the government generally handles this sort of thing.

    Alas, that would take up many hours, and although it would leave me with a good viewpoint and allow me to vote in an educated way, I`m just a little child who prefers to play video games. It might help if I was self reliant, and could use my own experiences to judge the ups and downs of insurance, but... that`s for another day, I guess. I applaud those who fully and rigorously investigate this sort of thing from historical and present viewpoints.

    Well, I don`t know why I posted this, but too late now, I`ve posted it.

  111. Profile photo of Skreshavik
    Skreshavik Female 18-29
    1284 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 1:02 am
    AHAHAHAHA!
    I`m not paying for this either way, LOL!

    What I don`t understand is why people should feel giddy about this if everything else Obama did/said was a lie. My opinion is that this is just another payoff from the lobbyists to market some other ineffective drug...and force everyone to take it. Have fun!

  112. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 1:12 am
    Thanks you guys; it`s always nice when the message comes across without being buried by the rhetoric. :-)
  113. Profile photo of GosuPaul
    GosuPaul Male 18-29
    516 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 1:42 am
    I`m not understanding the sniffles bit, Suicism.

    Nobody forces me to go to the doctor with sniffles.

  114. Profile photo of Shellie84
    Shellie84 Female 18-29
    4197 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 2:23 am
    Suicism - why the drat would we ban or delete your comments about that?? It was related to the topic without being a douche towards other members. We aren`t ALL monsters (except for primetimekin) :D

    Also, that was a hell of a lot of reading and I don`t understand politics very well. I got the raw end of the stick when it came to smarts BUT there is no perfect system and I thought there would be no more insurance needed (unless people wanted to go privately) I dunno... Aus`s system works ok. You pay a little tax (for eg, you pay an ambulance levy with your electricity bill to get free ambo care/rides) and with that little bit you pay you get free services when needed. YES some people do abuse the system, but no system is %100 perfect and never will be

  115. Profile photo of Shellie84
    Shellie84 Female 18-29
    4197 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 2:24 am
    I guess as long as I pay the tax for my family to get the free healthcare we get, I`m satisfied. The rest of the people can take a running jump lol
  116. Profile photo of qwyrxian
    qwyrxian Male 30-39
    73 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 2:32 am
    Uh, this isn`t anything even slightly like socialized health, which, btw, the U.S. already has: V.A. benefits, Medicare, and Medicaid. There`s no public insurance, no direct regulation of insurance companies, no control over prices....
  117. Profile photo of GosuPaul
    GosuPaul Male 18-29
    516 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 2:34 am
    I think I posted this previously already, Shellie, but to be honest I think that America being the most unhealthy non-third world country will definitely make a difference in how our healthcare will operate.

    Countless health issues pop up due to our diets and lack of activity. We also have issues with letting people go, so we`d happily have our insurance (and in this case, tax payers) pay millions of dollars to save our Grandfather for another year.

    Comparing Australian healthcare to a new American one is like comparing a planted seed on Earth to one on the Moon.

    *shrug* I`d love it if socialized healthcare worked out for us. Chances are though, it won`t be the dreamboat everyone wants it to be.

  118. Profile photo of Shellie84
    Shellie84 Female 18-29
    4197 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 2:44 am
    thanks paul. I really hope this works out for america :)
  119. Profile photo of moefreak
    moefreak Female 18-29
    1963 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 3:29 am
    Ugh... suicism... I appreciate the well worded and thought out point, but I still disagree. You speak as if there are no countries in the world where socialised health care has not been successful. Having lived in several such countries, and having experienced the very high quality health care first hand, I just don`t see the need for all the speculation. The only issue here is whether or not the US is somehow fundamentally different from all of these other countries in that a similar system would never work. I, personally, absolutely do not think so.
  120. Profile photo of a1butcher
    a1butcher Male 40-49
    4809 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 6:39 am
    Wow, a lot of great comments here..... congrats to American for getting with the program and I hope it all works out for you all.
    Next step should perhaps be the Metric system???
  121. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 7:17 am
    mrwnt, My reasoning is simple. George W Bush committed our country to a war that was based upon lies. That little blunder has cost our nation a trillion dollars to date and over 4,000 American lives. We lost our honor, our respect, our civil rights and the end result has been the freedom of OBL. This bill is a far cry from everything Obama had promised but as bad as it is he`ll never be a worse president than Bush. Never.
  122. Profile photo of Coolhandluke
    Coolhandluke Male 18-29
    95 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 7:33 am
    Boo. This sucks. I hope you`re happy davymid. When you are dying of cancer and your good ol` Irish government refuses to help you, your last beacon of hope (America) will also give you the cold shoulder.
  123. Profile photo of SpacemnSpiff
    SpacemnSpiff Male 18-29
    101 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 8:21 am
    I have epilepsy and no health insurance because its a preexisting condition. I pay $700 a month for medication and $130 for visits(twice a year) to my neurologist. I had a seizure and was able to get a $2100 EEG the next day. I work 2 jobs to pay for this stuff. Because I didn`t have to deal w/ government bureaucracy and was able to get an EEG right away the doctor was able to narrow down what part of the brain was being affected. Which is going to save me $350 a month because I can drop some medication. I`m not saying nothing is wrong w/ the system and things shouldn`t change, I`m saying government who is ran by people who fight over the littlest things is not the answer to our problems.
  124. Profile photo of napolean420
    napolean420 Male 18-29
    50 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 8:29 am
    socialized health care could work, and so could changes in the current syatem. the point is our currently leaders are so clueless that THIS bill will do nothing to make us healthier. its a bloated bureaucratic nightmare. why not fix small portions of the healthcare system first? they have no proof that waht they are trying to pass will even work.

    let insurance companies be competitive across state borders. have a la carte coverage. my insurance plan has chiropractic, psychological, dental, drug counseling, etc. I can get ALL or nothing. using the car analogy, it like having boat, motorcycle, and plane insurance... when i only have a car.

  125. Profile photo of napolean420
    napolean420 Male 18-29
    50 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 8:37 am
    Wow, a lot of great comments here..... congrats to American for getting with the program and I hope it all works out for you all.
    Next step should perhaps be the Metric system???

    haha. but feet ,miles, and inches make ur brain work so much harder.

  126. Profile photo of Wildcats2008
    Wildcats2008 Male 18-29
    237 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 9:03 am
    Bush spends 1 trillion on a war over 7-8 YEARS

    Obama spends over 2 trillion on a plan that no one wants and might not even WORK in 12 MONTHS

    And Obama is better how? What exactly is it that he has done?

  127. Profile photo of Wildcats2008
    Wildcats2008 Male 18-29
    237 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 9:04 am
    Oh and one source to qualify part of my statement

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_c...

  128. Profile photo of xastor
    xastor Male 18-29
    46 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 11:05 am
    wildcats2008, you got to reorganize your priorities!
    If you think a president is worse because he spends more money for the total welfare of his people then a predecessor spended on wars, i hope you never get children
  129. Profile photo of SpacemnSpiff
    SpacemnSpiff Male 18-29
    101 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 11:09 am
    madest- Bush was not a dictator, he needed congressional approval to declare war. If Bush lied then so did the politicians who had the same info and voted for declaring war.
    What would you have done? Sit and wait for another attack? Fight in land locked Afghanistan that is surrounded by other nations that won`t help us? Or would you attack an evil regime that no one would miss and use that country, that has access to the sea, as a kind of base of operations? And if you feel war is never necessary all I have to say is, Hitler.
  130. Profile photo of Wildcats2008
    Wildcats2008 Male 18-29
    237 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 12:26 pm
    I`m not saying helping out the country is bad...someone stated Bush was bad because he "wasted" a bunch of money on a war...I`m just giving some financial perspective...if spending stays on this track Obama will have spent 16 TRILLION dollars over 8 years compared to the 1 trillion in 8 years of Bush...

    I`m all for helping out other people but throwing money at a situation that is neither wanted nor effective isn`t the solution.

    Oh and I`ve already thought long and hard about my possible future children and I plan to work hard and provide my family with what they need WITHOUT help from the government...and not rack up a debt they`ll never be able to repay...

  131. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 3:05 pm
    Sorry Shellie, it was nothing against you but ALL the reasons you cited as to why such a deletion would be unjustified were completely ignored in the instance of another series of my posts, and I just didn`t want to name names (bigbrother2 is watching you..)

    Paul is right, but I wasn`t saying the majority of abuse comes from people intentionally; it`s just one of those things where, if you are sufficiently convinced that the good or service you`re receiving is `free` (i.e., not operating strictly upon a pay-per-use basis), the effects of increased use are not felt by you directly, and therefore are bound to nudge you off the fence in favor of increased consumption in more instances than not. Over time, this inevitably strains the system, which can only be alleviated by either increasing costs across the board or cutting services accordingly.

  132. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 3:05 pm
    Aside from the aspect of income-redistribution being entirely immoral from a Libertarian perspective, how does this prospect in any way provide a preferable alternative to what we have to deal with now? Already, to a certain extent overuse takes place precisely because coverage has become so comprehensive. In a perfect world (i.e., one in which scarcity were not a factor) this type of approach might be feasible, whatever ethical qualms may still remain. However, as far as I’m concerned it’s ultimately economically untenable to truly provide for all the varying health-care needs of every particular individual through a steady payment-rate, with static funding provided by any single payer - government or not!
  133. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 3:05 pm
    The particular problem with the PUBLIC option (which the House is bound to try & ram back in there) is that it inevitably suffocates the very private alternatives you mentioned. How could you survive, say as a private residential lemonade vendor, if your only source of revenue was customer demand (i.e. their willingness AND ability to pay) for your product, but one day out of nowhere your spoiled kid brother sets up shop right next to you and, because the parents have a vested interest in making sure he doesn’t experience failure, receives a static allowance from them to stay in business, even if he doesn’t turn a dime of profit!
  134. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 3:06 pm
    Now imagine how irked you’d be to find out that part of your allowance was being siphoned into his copycat lemonade business (profitable or not), and because of this he was able to cut prices below market value (in this case, whatever you could afford to keep buying supplies) thereby engendering increased interest in his service by, here it is again, artificially inflating demand beyond that which the market could sustain on its own.

    I realize this is a crude analogy, but there’s a REASON the market cannot sustain certain activity beyond a finite point, and it is USUALLY because further activity has been deemed economically untenable due to supply and demand.

  135. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 3:07 pm
    I know there are hosts of examples showing otherwise, either because of overzealous profiteering or government intervention, but in this case I think it’s valid. Most economic activities, especially ones as unpredictable and individually varied as health-maintenance, simply cannot be sustained in any stable fashion by static supply in the face of variable demand. And, because of the special quality of healthcare (it’s the economic consideration most easily distorted by lack of information, i.e. “am I coming down with something or not? Would it really be in my best interest to wait and find out? By then might it be too late..”), this unsustainable characteristic is exacerbated exponentially.
  136. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 3:11 pm
    That’s why so many countries are forced to employ waiting-lists and rationing; because socialized medicine doesn’t really tackle the problem of coverage – the problem of coverage is what we’ve come to expect from it, and THAT is what needs to be addressed in this debate more than anything else.

    Moefreak: perhaps our personal definitions of `success` vary wildly, but I`d love to hear what you`re talking about. On that note, I`d be really curious to hear more about how the Australian system works as well. PM me Moe if you think it`s going to be exhaustive.

  137. Profile photo of Cynic8387
    Cynic8387 Male 18-29
    170 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 3:34 pm
    To Suicism:

    Cool Story Bro.

  138. Profile photo of FrEaK121
    FrEaK121 Male 18-29
    12 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 9:20 pm
    Dang. Suicism go write a book lol.
  139. Profile photo of Septemberex
    Septemberex Female 13-17
    646 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 9:59 pm
    Rad ancedote, cuz
  140. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    December 30, 2009 at 11:12 pm
    Maybe I will :-|
  141. Profile photo of DavidXJ
    DavidXJ Male 30-39
    1106 posts
    December 31, 2009 at 9:03 am
    We didn`t found this country to be taken care of... but I guess congress thinks we did.
  142. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    December 31, 2009 at 12:28 pm
    Ahh! My pumpkin brethren. Finally, you emerge! We must conspire to further our agenda. You in?

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