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Date: 11/24/09 12:05 PM

201 Responses to Kirk Cameron Attempts To Convert UCLA Students

  1. Profile photo of msmojo
    msmojo Female 18-29
    97 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 12:33 pm
    Link: Kirk Cameron Attempts To Convert UCLA Students - Kick Cameron went to the UCLA campus, got in a debate with a smarter student than him and got POWNED! Listen carefully.
  2. Profile photo of RyanF701
    RyanF701 Male 18-29
    2486 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 12:39 pm
    KICK Cameron huh?
  3. Profile photo of Loxen
    Loxen Female 30-39
    1387 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 12:44 pm
    I think if Athiests and Christians were ever to agree on one thing. It would be in their dislike of Kirk Cameron.
  4. Profile photo of BABY_BEAR
    BABY_BEAR Female 18-29
    1396 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 12:45 pm
    ? I dont know who this guy is. Is the point of this that he called Darwin an Atheist?
  5. Profile photo of ImDanny
    ImDanny Male 13-17
    123 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 12:49 pm
    Kirk Cameron. It`s Kirk.
  6. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 12:53 pm
    I think if Athiests and Christians were ever to agree on one thing. It would be in their dislike of Kirk Cameron.

    Amen.

  7. Profile photo of dragonshadoz
    dragonshadoz Female 18-29
    4033 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:00 pm
    The dialogue needs to be clearer, or that music needs to shut-up.
    They be educated!
  8. Profile photo of LandoGriffin
    LandoGriffin Male 30-39
    3844 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    RyanF701
    Male, 18-29, Western US
    2252 Posts Tuesday, November 24, 2009 12:39:29 PM
    KICK Cameron huh?


    I would be glad to. Somebody should. He`s a jerk. I don`t care if he is a Christian but why does he care whether everybody else is or not? Why does he go around saying all Jews are going to hell because they don`t believe in Jesus (or at least don`t believe he has super powers)?

    Anyone who doesn`t believe in his religion also doesn`t believe in his rules about heaven and hell, so he`s not going to convince anyone.

  9. Profile photo of Concetra
    Concetra Male 18-29
    2051 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:03 pm
    Jesus Christ that trumpet is drating annoying.
  10. Profile photo of Tisjokar
    Tisjokar Male 18-29
    985 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:03 pm
    I`ve got no idea whats going on here...
  11. Profile photo of R33MIX
    R33MIX Male 13-17
    77 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:06 pm
    Kick and powned, huh?
  12. Profile photo of RyanF701
    RyanF701 Male 18-29
    2486 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:09 pm
    "
    I would be glad to. Somebody should. He`s a jerk. I don`t care if he is a Christian but why does he care whether everybody else is or not? Why does he go around saying all Jews are going to hell because they don`t believe in Jesus (or at least don`t believe he has super powers)?

    Anyone who doesn`t believe in his religion also doesn`t believe in his rules about heaven and hell, so he`s not going to convince anyone."

    I was referring to the typo in the title, but they fixed it lol.

  13. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:12 pm
    The simplest acid test for a scientific idea is to see whether or not it has been or can be applied for the benefit of humanity.

    Evolutionary theory is how vaccines are produced- by predicting evolutionary trends of viruses and bacteria, and making people immune to those before the actual selection pressures create the strain of virus or bacteria.

    Evolution is the foundation of microbiology. It is instrumental in understanding how biology works and has been used to research and cure hundreds if not thousands of diseases.

    Creationism, on the other hand...
    Not.
    A.
    Damn.
    Thing.

  14. Profile photo of ScottSerious
    ScottSerious Male 18-29
    5316 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:20 pm
    too long, poor quality, dont care now :|
  15. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:21 pm
    Funny you bring up microbiology, since nothing in microbiology supports evolution. Any credible mathmetician, physicist, microbiologist will tell you that Darwins theory of Evolution is not real science.

    It all points to intelligent design, and at the end of the day, even Darwin didn`t fully believe his own theories.

  16. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:23 pm
    And.......GO!
  17. Profile photo of a1butcher
    a1butcher Male 40-49
    4812 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:23 pm
    How can you "listen carefully" with such terrible audio and those dang trumpets
  18. Profile photo of citizen_kane
    citizen_kane Male 18-29
    272 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:29 pm
    can`t.
    understand.
    a word.
  19. Profile photo of TopperHey
    TopperHey Male 18-29
    1930 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:31 pm
    nicely trolled maddux32
  20. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:35 pm
    Maddux, your statement is made true by redefining evolution, and then claiming microbiology does not support it.

    Evolution and microbiology are virtually synonymous. you can have demonstrable natural selection. You can mass produce billions of microbes, change their entire world, and watch as the ones capable of surviving that environment (through mutation) thrive, whilst the majority die.

    Does microbiology prove planetary evolution? No. It also doesn`t prove fermat`s Theorem, but it doesn`t need to.

  21. Profile photo of Nidonemo
    Nidonemo Male 18-29
    9311 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:40 pm
    Trumpet`s too loud, can`t hear a damned thing.
  22. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:49 pm
    And I have no idea what the people are saying.
  23. Profile photo of BrimstoneOne
    BrimstoneOne Male 30-39
    2229 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:49 pm
    the video is made useless by it terrible audio
  24. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7379 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 1:56 pm
    It`s official, Kirk Cameron is retarded.
  25. Profile photo of FlameOfUdun
    FlameOfUdun Male 18-29
    1222 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:03 pm
    This is SO BAD I can`t hear a word :(
  26. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:16 pm
    "Maddux, your statement is made true by redefining evolution, and then claiming microbiology does not support it."

    Who redefined evolution? I think everybody here has a clear understanding of what it is and what it implies. And no, evolution and microbiology are not synonomous. Evolution, not the theory, is a trait or aspect of microbiology that is well understood and documented. The "Theory" of evolution as outlined by Charles Darwin is not the same thing. It`s worse than most intelligent design theories because it bases it`s truth on several faulty assumptions. Darwin posited a theory based on observations documented on a remote island, and the scientific community ran with it. Creationist followed the same observations and came up with a different theory. The only difference between the two is one group mistakenly believes their theories to be based on fact. If this were true, the scientific community would no longer be calling it a theory.

  27. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:21 pm
    "Does microbiology prove planetary evolution? No. It also doesn`t prove fermat`s Theorem, but it doesn`t need to."

    Microbiology does more to prove intelligent design than evolution. Microbiology is the chief reason the scientific community has not made the logical leap of concluding Evolution a scientific fact. Those brave scientists who have done this have been destroyed by their own peers in pointing out obvious flaws.

    Many evolutionists who are honest with themselves have publically converted to intelligent design. Most evolutionists always leave open the possibility of intelligent design because all the scientific data points to it. The best arguments against intelligent design go something like this..."I know that it looks like intelligent design, I know that everything points to it, and know everything feels like it...but it`s not."

  28. Profile photo of deadpopstar
    deadpopstar Female 18-29
    497 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:22 pm
    I wish I could have understood it =[
  29. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:26 pm
    I really don`t want to get into it, but some of the strongest evidence against evolution have to do with the fossil record. Anyone interested can google it and see why Evolution is still a "Theory", with an ever increasing population of respected scientists labeling it a "bad theory".
  30. Profile photo of trama
    trama Male 18-29
    1 post
    November 24, 2009 at 2:32 pm
    maddux, please look up the definition of scientific theory. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_...
  31. Profile photo of Night1ord
    Night1ord Male 18-29
    20 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:34 pm
    Lol at the "evolution is not the same as the theory of evolution" there is only a use of evolution and that is the theory, and by the way its not "just" a theory, its not like it becomes a law when its proved. They are 2 completely different things. And microbiology bases it everyday work in evolution and there is nothing that supports inteligent desing, not at least in the last 50 years when all the supposely unexplained and "impossible" structures were after all explained and broken into simple and easy to find parts.
  32. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:40 pm
    Lol at the "evolution is not the same as the theory of evolution" there is only a use of evolution and that is the theory, and by the way its not "just" a theory, its not like it becomes a law when its proved. They are 2 completely different things.

    Right....a law is fact, a theory is something that might be true. So what`s your point?

    Evolution is not the same as the theory of Evolution. Evolution in microbiology is better known as a genetic mutation, an anomaly, a physical necessity in order to cope with outside influences. They are completely different. I`d love for you to humor me and try to prove otherwise.

  33. Profile photo of Rhinosaur
    Rhinosaur Male 18-29
    62 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:42 pm
    must be a bunch of fat guys walking around in the background, those tubas are goin` off.
  34. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:42 pm
    And microbiology bases it everyday work in evolution and there is nothing that supports intelligent design, not at least in the last 50 years when all the supposedly unexplained and "impossible" structures were after all explained and broken into simple and easy to find parts.

    Riddle me this Batman. How can you be an intelligent person, and actually believe this. The only way you could possibly make this statement is if A) you know nothing about microbiology and the implications of it`s findings. Or B) You just want to be right, and are willing to say anything regardless of it`s truth to accomplish it.

  35. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:44 pm
    Anyone interested can google it and see why Evolution is still a "Theory", with an ever increasing population of respected scientists labeling it a "bad theory".

    Bullpoo. Theory, in a scientific context, is the accepted explanation for a collection of related facts. Gravity has a Theory, but is also a Fact. The Theory explains the Fact. The same is true of cells, atoms, germs, and countless other things. All have related theories.

    Evolution Happens = Fact.

    How and Why Does Evolution Happen? = Theory.

    Learn 2 Science before you try to discredit the work of people far smarter than you. There are more scientists named Steve who support evolution than there are scientists of any name who reject it.

  36. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:51 pm
    "Bullpoo. Theory, in a scientific context, is the accepted explanation for a collection of related facts. Gravity has a Theory, but is also a Fact. The Theory explains the Fact. The same is true of cells, atoms, germs, and countless other things. All have related theories."

    It is the accepted explanation of a collection of facts by people who subscribe to that theory. It does not preclude opposing theories based on the same collection of facts.

    "Evolution Happens = Fact"

    Why does evolution happen? How do organisms know to evolve? Why have we been unable to produce the same affects scientifically? What is the foundation for this?

    Gravity has a Theory, but is also a Fact.

    It`s also based on good science, the fundamental aspects of such that are beyond question. There are also laws that have been derived from this theory, all of which are diametrically opposed to the original theories of relativity. So whats your point?

  37. Profile photo of yofuzzy
    yofuzzy Male 13-17
    310 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:52 pm
    YOU AINT GOT NO PANCAKE MIX!

    also, skip to like half way through the video and they start to talk louder and the music goes away

  38. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:52 pm
    Funny you bring up microbiology, since nothing in microbiology supports evolution. Any credible mathmetician, physicist, microbiologist will tell you that Darwins theory of Evolution is not real science.

    You have just demonstrated that you know nothing about the theory of evolution, or microbiology, or mathematics, or physics or science in general.

    So why should I consider your posts on those subjects any more meaningful than the noise of the raindrops pattering on my window at the momemnt?

    One this does slightly interest me - what on earth makes you think that physics or maths is evolution? A physicist or mathematician may have little or no knowledge of the theory of evolution - it`s a completely different field.

  39. Profile photo of Night1ord
    Night1ord Male 18-29
    20 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:54 pm
    A law is a description of something, the theory is the explanation of the same thing, that is why you have the law of gravity (that helps you determine for example the free fall speed of something) and also the theory of gravity (that explains why this happens).

    Microbiology is based on evolution, the whole phylogenetic field would be useless if the theory of evolution were not true, and nowadays you have to justify all your finding in the phylogenetic context if they are to be held as true. Precisely because I work on microbiology is why I know how much of it depends on the veracity of evolution, from the main principles of work to the everyday chores (bacteria evolving and adapting to a phage infection making the phage useless and forcing you to buy a new batch of unadapted bacteria for example)

  40. Profile photo of Sigon
    Sigon Male 18-29
    129 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:55 pm
    I don`t understand why christians cannot understand that the bible does NOT disprove Evolution. The bible is simply a book that was written by MAN as an interpretation of GOD. Evolution (in my belief) is the tool by which god has created all life in the universe. The bible was not written by god, only naive christians believe that it was written by God, the bible has numerous moral authors which is accepted and understood by the upper echelons of all the major christian churches. Man is fallible, only God himself is Infallible, so how can anyone say that Man was able to write a book that undeniably states fact about what God has placed forth for his subjects? Man is not capable of comprehending the methods or motives of God, the Bible is only a book of the most rudimentary ethos of God`s grand design. Now before I get bashed by the hardcore christians in teh forum, I will say that Evolution IS still a theory, however there is plenty of anthropological evidence to back it up as a
  41. Profile photo of Sigon
    Sigon Male 18-29
    129 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:56 pm
    I hate when the char. marker doesn`t work
  42. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:56 pm
    "Learn 2 Science before you try to discredit the work of people far smarter than you. There are more scientists named Steve who support evolution than there are scientists of any name who reject it."

    You are sorely mistaken, and are distorting the facts. Most scientists subscribe to the fact that things evolve. The question is do they evolve to the extent suggested by Darwin? Probably not....according to the fossil record...absolutely not.

    The fundamental question that bothers the scientific community is "Why do things evolve, why are things alive, why do organisms have a purpose, how does something so infinitely complex as DNA happen by chance". It`s not mathmatically possible, it`s not even scientifically possible, it all points to intelligent design...and this is the problem.

  43. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 2:58 pm
    "One this does slightly interest me - what on earth makes you think that physics or maths is evolution? A physicist or mathematician may have little or no knowledge of the theory of evolution - it`s a completely different field."

    LOL! You have proven your worth with this last paragraph. The fact that you don`t understand this allows me to disregard you.

  44. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:00 pm
    Why does evolution happen? How do organisms know to evolve? Why have we been unable to produce the same affects scientifically? What is the foundation for this?

    Organisms do not "know" to evolve. They simply do, via the process of procreation with variation. You are a mutant. I am a mutant. Every human alive is a mutant, as we`re not a perfect blending of 50% Mom and 50% dad. Our genetic code contains random mutations of the contributing DNA. Harmful mutations lower your chances of living to create offspring. Beneficial ones increase those chances. Eventually, beneficial mutations work their way through the entire gene pool, though it happens fastest in small, localized species. In species with large numbers, the sheer numbers slow down evolution on a species-wide scale.

    Also, again, Learn2Science. Scientific laws have to involve math. And there IS a Law of Evolution. So suck it.

  45. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:00 pm
    I really don`t want to get into it, but some of the strongest evidence against evolution have to do with the fossil record.

    I`m not surprised you really don`t want to get into it, because you`re wrong.

    Anyone interested can google it and see why Evolution is still a "Theory", with an ever increasing population of respected scientists labeling it a "bad theory".

    Something else to add to the list of things you have no understanding of: What `theory` means in a scientific context.

    Respected scientists labelling the theory of evolution as a bad theory...LOL. Just LOL. I can`t take you seriously. No doubt some disagree about some parts of it, but that`s not the same thing at all. Maybe the "population" might have increased from 1 to 2, maybe. There are often some mavericks who think everyone else is completely wrong but can still be respected scientists.

  46. Profile photo of tatripp
    tatripp Male 18-29
    1196 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:01 pm
    i can`t hear what they are saying. imma go punch some babies
  47. Profile photo of Night1ord
    Night1ord Male 18-29
    20 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:02 pm
    "The question is do they evolve to the extent suggested by Darwin? Probably not....according to the fossil record...absolutely not. "

    False, a century ago that would have been a solid argument, now it has been found that evolution is mathematically sound and even statistically likely.

    That includes the fossil record, if you calculate the amounts and type of fossil that you may find according to the conditions needed for the fossil creation and the technology available for investigation it is even surprising to find as much evidence as we have now. Even 10 times less fossils would be coherent to the evolution theory from an statistical point of view.

  48. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:05 pm
    LOL! You have proven your worth with this last paragraph. The fact that you don`t understand this allows me to disregard you.

    I have some knowledge of science. You have none. I have no wish to understand your entirely fictional idea of science. You must disregard me, because I threaten your fantasy "science".

    I`d have more respect for you if you were honest about your faith and didn`t try to dress it up as science while trying to discredit science by subterfuge. You`ve mentioned microbiology, so here`s an analogy - creation "science" is a virus attempting to infect and destroy science.

  49. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:06 pm
    Answer me this Angilion, since I`m not going to let this "devolve" into back handed insults and emotional appeals...since you obviously assume that I know nothing...and I have similar assumptions about you, so can get that out of the way.

    Explain to me Richard Dawkins, probably one of the most intelligent, smartest, accomplished, and ardent opposers of creationsim and intelligent design, actually posited a theory of intelligent design? Seriously....RICHARD FREAKING DAWKINS.

    You can`t go too deep scientifically without leading back to this conclusion.

  50. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:07 pm
    I`m not BS`ing you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoncJBrrd...

  51. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:10 pm
    Explain to me Richard Dawkins, probably one of the most intelligent, smartest, accomplished, and ardent opposers of creationsim and intelligent design, actually posited a theory of intelligent design? Seriously....RICHARD FREAKING DAWKINS.

    Quite simple. He was likely being satirical at the time, or positing such a theory for the sole purpose of mocking it. Taking such an example out of context does nothing to support you claims at all.

    I have quotes of (likely your hero) Ken Ham saying that there is no God. Taken out of their original context, that`s all you hear. Of course, we both know the idiot believes in a God. But I still have quotes of him saying there isn`t one.

    Supply context or GTFO.

  52. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:11 pm
    For clarification, in science:

    -Facts are objective and verifiable observations (it is 42 degrees fahrenheit, the ball`s velocity was 87mph)

    -Laws are simple, verifiable statements relating facts (if object A has mass a, object B has mass b, and they are d feet apart, we can find the gravitational force acting on both).

    -Hypotheses are testable (falsifiable) statements which explain a collection of facts and laws.

    -Evidence is information (e.g. fact, law or observation) which, together with inference, makes it relevant to an hypothesis.

    -A theory is a hypothesis which explains a broad class of facts and laws, which holds up against all available evidences.

  53. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:11 pm
    "Quite simple. He was likely being satirical at the time, or positing such a theory for the sole purpose of mocking it. Taking such an example out of context does nothing to support you claims at all.

    I have quotes of (likely your hero) Ken Ham saying that there is no God. Taken out of their original context, that`s all you hear. Of course, we both know the idiot believes in a God. But I still have quotes of him saying there isn`t one.

    Supply context or GTFO."

    I believe I did...I supplied a link and everything. He basically said that it is likely that we are here by intelligent design, and it`s either Aliens or God...and it`s not God.

  54. Profile photo of Night1ord
    Night1ord Male 18-29
    20 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:13 pm
    You have to understand that for scientific purposes everything is a possibility.

    Intelligent design is a possibility.
    magic is a possibility.
    we are characters in somebody`s videogame also.
    Evolution is a possibility.

    But from the endless possibilities only one is likely and by a huge margin, and that is evolution.

  55. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:13 pm
    Ken Ham`s an idiot.
  56. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:13 pm
    So... you supply a video clip of Expelled. A movie where nearly every legitimate scientist who was interviewed was lied to about the purpose of the movie and had their interviews edited and warped to make them say things they didn`t actually say.

    Seriously, cited Expelled for information is an instant failure. You just lost at life. Please stop breathing now, you`re wasting valuable air.

  57. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:15 pm
    Here is the full interview.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlZtEjtli...

  58. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:17 pm
    "So... you supply a video clip of Expelled. A movie where nearly every legitimate scientist who was interviewed was lied to about the purpose of the movie and had their interviews edited and warped to make them say things they didn`t actually say.
    Seriously, cited Expelled for information is an instant failure. You just lost at life. Please stop breathing now, you`re wasting valuable air."

    That`s what you came back with? Seriously? An appeal to emotional insults because you are uncomfortable with what was said?

    Fitting. This is usually how these arguemnts go by the way...it never goes back to the facts, it always involves some form of...Bullpoo, you`re an idiot.

  59. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:18 pm
    While Dawkins does admit that ID is possible, he only allows an ultimately testable, verifiable explanation. He, in general, also follows it up with a question of how the "designer" came to be if not by something similar to evolution by natural selection.
  60. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:20 pm
    That`s what you came back with? Seriously? An appeal to emotional insults because you are uncomfortable with what was said?

    Fitting. This is usually how these arguemnts go by the way...it never goes back to the facts, it always involves some form of...Bullpoo, you`re an idiot.

    Looking to Expelled for facts is like looking to the Bible for them. You`re bound to be disappointed.

    Yes, Dawkins positing a theory of ID by aliens. As a satire to illustrate how entirely bonkers thinking a God did it is. He was not being serious at all. To suggest he was is to totally misunderstand him and his views. 5 minutes of research on Dawkins will show he a firm supporter of evolutionary theory, and constantly mocks people who try to get Creationism or ID taught in schools as science.

  61. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:22 pm
    Even if that is what you believe about "Expelled" is true....do you seriously believe that the interview with Richard Dawkins was taken out of context? Those words came out of his mouth. He volunteered that theory, nobody coerced him. He understood what he was saying.

    Or is it "Bullpoo, they tricked him into saying those words, they lied to him about what the question was about, and it was all an illusion".

  62. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:24 pm
    It wasn`t a satire and you know it. You`re lying to yourself, and more importantly, distorting the truth for those individuals who do not have an agenda to spread some theory for the purposes of being right. Seeing Richard Dawkins answer questions that were 100% unequivocal and calling his response a satire is foolish.
  63. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:25 pm
    Here`s Dawkins` reaction to the interview.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9bEFoaQO...

  64. Profile photo of DarthJay
    DarthJay Male 30-39
    339 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:26 pm
    ***facepalm***

    Why do we KEEP arguing about this?! It`s like watching lemmings fall off a cliff. Do any of you SERIOUSLY think you`re going to sway the other side?!

  65. Profile photo of Night1ord
    Night1ord Male 18-29
    20 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:26 pm
    I insist, if you ask any real scientis if anything is possible then the only answer you will get is always the same.
    "it is possible" even if the explanation make no sense it is always possible in the eyes of sciencie.

    Evolution and ID ar both possible. but ID is extremely easy to discard because does not correspond to the evidence. Evolution on the other hand corresponds perfectly with the evidence. So, realistically speaking ID can be ignored as useless as a explanation compared with evolution.

    But then again, if you ask a scientist if it is possible then he will answer yes, as well as if you ask if we were created by a magical firefly, time-traveling robots from another universe or as a joke between gods. The answer is always "yes, it is possible"

  66. Profile photo of your0mom
    your0mom Male 13-17
    374 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:29 pm
    ah , i love these religious/scientific debates

    oh, and some statistics(?) that can prove evolution:
    1)Humans have steadily grown taller throughout time (and more so within that last century)
    2)It`s more natural for us to wear shoes than to go barefoot (that damn padding is doing us in)

    now go out and tare down my ideologies!

  67. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:29 pm
    Even if you buy that he wasn`t being satirical and was 100% serious, you still have the fact that he a man of science and reason. If ID really is our explanation, than the entity that directed it had to come from somewhere. That entity can be scientifically verified at some point, as will its influence on our development (though no such directed influence has been found, or been found to be needed).
  68. Profile photo of DarthJay
    DarthJay Male 30-39
    339 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    Hooray!!

  69. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:29 pm
    "While Dawkins does admit that ID is possible, he only allows an ultimately testable, verifiable explanation. He, in general, also follows it up with a question of how the "designer" came to be if not by something similar to evolution by natural selection. "

    Those are the limits aren`t they. No getting around it. It doesn`t change the fact that even Richard Dawkins admits that the evidence points to intelligent design in some capacity, and that if it wasn`t God, it was aliens. He admits that intelligent design is likely.

    I`m not arguing this to advance a theory that God created the universe...we can`t ge to that point until we get passed the whole intelligent design thing. What I am arguing is that we are here through intelligent design in some way, shape, or form.

  70. Profile photo of Night1ord
    Night1ord Male 18-29
    20 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:30 pm
    "Do any of you SERIOUSLY think you`re going to sway the other side?!"

    Do you seriously think the only purpose of a discussion is to sway the other side?

  71. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:31 pm
    Yes, arguing on the internet if futile.

    However, if it encourages one person to actually look for evidences themselves, then it`s all worth it.

  72. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:32 pm
    Even if you buy that he wasn`t being satirical and was 100% serious, you still have the fact that he a man of science and reason. If ID really is our explanation, than the entity that directed it had to come from somewhere. That entity can be scientifically verified at some point, as will its influence on our development (though no such directed influence has been found, or been found to be needed).

    Sure, he`s a man of science and reason...and he concluded that it was a likely possibility that we are here by intelligent design, even if that intelligence came from Aliens. Thats my point.

  73. Profile photo of DarthJay
    DarthJay Male 30-39
    339 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:32 pm
    "Do you seriously think the only purpose of a discussion is to sway the other side?"

    Ummm...you`re a pretty crummy debater if that`s not your purpose.

  74. Profile photo of Night1ord
    Night1ord Male 18-29
    20 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:33 pm
    " He admits that intelligent design is likely."

    False again, he admits its possible, but since the evidence points away from it, he says its unlikely.

    And by sticking with this argument you are admitting that god (or the aliens) was created by evolution and Darwinian laws, as he said in his answer.

  75. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:34 pm
    Evolution and ID ar both possible. but ID is extremely easy to discard because does not correspond to the evidence. Evolution on the other hand corresponds perfectly with the evidence. So, realistically speaking ID can be ignored as useless as a explanation compared with evolution.

    If this is true...than why hasn`t it been ignored. I`ll answer that for you. It`s because people who are way smarter than you and me....can`t.

  76. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:35 pm
    Those are the limits aren`t they. No getting around it. It doesn`t change the fact that even Richard Dawkins admits that the evidence points to intelligent design in some capacity, and that if it wasn`t God, it was aliens. He admits that intelligent design is likely.

    He does not, at ANY point, say it was likely. He says it is a possibility. He does not say there is any evidence for it. He merely entertained the idea. And as far as Dawkins is concerned, life on earth evolved naturally until some evidense is found that suggests otherwise.

  77. Profile photo of Night1ord
    Night1ord Male 18-29
    20 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:36 pm
    "Ummm...you`re a pretty crummy debater if that`s not your purpose."

    On the contrary, only a crummy debater base its participation on something entirely subjective controlled by its opponent. A much better one would discuss to have fun for example, and to express solid and rational arguments, even if the opponent is not rational enough to accept them.

  78. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:38 pm
    "If this is true...than why hasn`t it been ignored."

    Because the people promoting it have money.

  79. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:39 pm
    And by sticking with this argument you are admitting that god (or the aliens) was created by evolution and Darwinian laws, as he said in his answer.

    ID is the only argument that I`m positing. However that may have come about. It`s alwasy going to go back to how it started. If we are here by ID, and aliens did it, then who made the aliens? If you claim that Darwins theory is iron clad, then why haven`t we been able to produce it in a lab. We`ve had all the stuff, all the essential materials, the perfect environment, but we have never come close to bringing a single cell to life. It hasn`t happened, we haven`t come close. The day that we do I`ll change my position. Scientifically speaking, if you can`t replicate it in a lab....

  80. Profile photo of Night1ord
    Night1ord Male 18-29
    20 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:39 pm
    "If this is true...than why hasn`t it been ignored. I`ll answer that for you. It`s because people who are way smarter than you and me....can`t."

    Again false, there is not a single paper recently published in peer-reviewed journals based on ID premises. Science is ignoring completely ID as a faulty theory. Evolution on the other hand will give you millions of results in pubmed.

  81. Profile photo of Night1ord
    Night1ord Male 18-29
    20 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:42 pm
    "We`ve had all the stuff, all the essential materials, the perfect environment, but we have never come close to bringing a single cell to life."

    What are you talking about? one of the fundamental requisites are billions of years. And bringing a cell to life is not exactly worth a Nobel price, people do that routinely all over the world with bacteria and cell culture lines, its something called "genetic engineering". Done even in developing countries.

  82. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:43 pm
    What are you talking about? one of the fundamental requisites are billions of years. And bringing a cell to life is not exactly worth a Nobel price, people do that routinely all over the world with bacteria and cell culture lines, its something called "genetic engineering". Done even in developing countries.


    Ignorance is bliss....isn`t it.

  83. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:45 pm
    If this is true...than why hasn`t it been ignored. I`ll answer that for you. It`s because people who are way smarter than you and me....can`t.

    ID has been rejected as a valid field of study by every reputable scientist. Emphasis on reputable.

    If you claim that Darwins theory is iron clad, then why haven`t we been able to produce it in a lab.

    We have. Just because you`re behind on the times doesn`t mean the rest of us aren`t. We have witnessed e.coli bacteria evolve the ability to digest citrate. Note that not being able to digest citrate used to be one of the defining characteristics of e.coli.

    Link: http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899....

    So... yeah. You lose. ^_^ Nice try, though.

  84. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:49 pm
    We have. Just because you`re behind on the times doesn`t mean the rest of us aren`t. We have witnessed e.coli bacteria evolve the ability to digest citrate. Note that not being able to digest citrate used to be one of the defining characteristics of e.coli.

    Link: http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899....

    So... yeah. You lose. ^_^ Nice try, though.

    You misinterpreted what I said. I didn`t say that we couldn`t do cool tricks in labs with bacteria. I said we couldn`t recreate life out of raw materials. Reading comprehension is a valued commodity.

  85. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:50 pm
    Abiogenesis != evolution.

    Evolution has nothing to do with how life started. It is the explanation of what happened afterwards.

    For example, if you wake up tomorrow morning in China (assuming you don`t live there). Of course you`ll wonder how you got there, but it won`t change the fact that you`re in China.

    So while we don`t know how life came to be, we know there is life, and we know that it changes over time.

  86. Profile photo of your0mom
    your0mom Male 13-17
    374 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:50 pm
    angilion, are you a high Priest of some sort?

    and WTF tatripp!?!!??!?

  87. Profile photo of The_Maddog
    The_Maddog Male 30-39
    3371 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 3:52 pm
    Wow...just wow maddux32.

    Thank you! it`s been a while since I laughed that hard.

    Anyway..interwebs debates..keep the lols coming!

  88. Profile photo of shunpo_31
    shunpo_31 Male 18-29
    1381 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 4:04 pm
    I think it`s hilarious that people who have the scientific prowess of a high school student always seem to demand "scientific proof" of supernatural beliefs.

    If you can`t even derive Maxwell`s Equations, don`t bother attempting to belittle a belief in a higher-dimensional being by "lack of scientific proof." Go get a Ph.D. in physics. Seriously. If you don`t find your answers along the way, then I`ll listen to your griping.

  89. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 4:09 pm
    "Wow...just wow maddux32.

    Thank you! it`s been a while since I laughed that hard.

    Anyway..interwebs debates..keep the lols coming!"

    You should look at your pee pee more, you`d laugh harder. LOLLERSKATES!

  90. Profile photo of Night1ord
    Night1ord Male 18-29
    20 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 4:12 pm
    "Ignorance is bliss....isn`t it. "

    Well, apparently it is. Fortunately the people who tranfect (commercially available)plasmids into (commercially available) biological systems with (commercially available) transduction proteins to create new live bacteria from the precursors passed on that bliss and preferred to do something useful.

    In simple terms, you can buy cell pieces (nucleic acids, proteins, solutions, etc.) put them together and give them life, routine in a microbiology laboratory.

  91. Profile photo of Pooptart19
    Pooptart19 Male 18-29
    2442 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 4:18 pm
    Kirk Cameron is a douchenozzle. End of story.
  92. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 4:20 pm
    Well, apparently it is. Fortunately the people who tranfect (commercially available)plasmids into (commercially available) biological systems with (commercially available) transduction proteins to create new live bacteria from the precursors passed on that bliss and preferred to do something useful.

    In simple terms, you can buy cell pieces (nucleic acids, proteins, solutions, etc.) put them together and give them life, routine in a microbiology laboratory.


    LOL!!!!

  93. Profile photo of Reaper8
    Reaper8 Female 18-29
    107 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 4:24 pm
    so... has anyone actually watched the video, or are you all just yelling at each other like idiots. YOU WILL NEVER CONVINCE EACH OTHER!! Anyway, I can`t hear a darned thing in this... someone tell that trumpet to shut up!
  94. Profile photo of jayme21
    jayme21 Male 18-29
    579 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 4:31 pm
    Maddux your ability to understand science is flawed shown immediately by your understanding of scientific theory. You seem to add 2 and 2 together to get 5.

    Science and religon do not need to be enemies, science explains how things work and religon can explain why. So how life has come from Big bang science explains without any reasonable doubt. Yet religon can say why it all started etc, but by diging in like you are your doing your religon more harm then good by re-enforcing a stereotype that your all crazy nutjobs who ignore facts out of misguided faith in something they have no proof of.

  95. Profile photo of Lily101244
    Lily101244 Female 13-17
    17 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 4:41 pm
    Whether you belive towards relegion or scince kirk cameron is a rude biligerant non-nice individual who should either die or go to hell!
  96. Profile photo of kikayoaka
    kikayoaka Male 70 & Over
    353 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 4:43 pm
    Sure is evolution within a species in here.
  97. Profile photo of kikayoaka
    kikayoaka Male 70 & Over
    353 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 4:45 pm
    Also how the hell does wearing shoes reinforce evolution.
  98. Profile photo of vegascartman
    vegascartman Male 30-39
    735 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 4:49 pm
    I watched 2 minutes of this video and could barely understand a word
  99. Profile photo of slayer50515
    slayer50515 Male 18-29
    988 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 4:54 pm
    TL;DW
    (Too long; don`t watch)
  100. Profile photo of Winter_ICE_0
    Winter_ICE_0 Male 13-17
    976 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 4:55 pm
    Slayer, why did you use the abbrivation when you were still going to explain it?
  101. Profile photo of joey7415963
    joey7415963 Male 18-29
    174 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 4:57 pm
    Science is based on observations and not evidence

    The fundamental point is that evolution is a theory as is God. Neither can be proved!

    I don`t get why people continuously have to try to disprove one another!

  102. Profile photo of SmilinSam
    SmilinSam Female 18-29
    3599 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 5:02 pm
    This was a stupid video. i am bored still.
  103. Profile photo of The_Maddog
    The_Maddog Male 30-39
    3371 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 5:13 pm
    Ohh..what infantile response should I come back with maddux32?

    Ah sod it. I can`t. It`s like taking candy from a baby.

    So instead, since you laughed at Night1ords post I`ll give you this to read.

    Life’s First Spark Re-Created in the Laboratory

    There you go. We HAVE created the first building blocks of life in a lab!

    After that I`m simply not prepared to waste anymore time on this subject. I can`t educate you, nor will I try. However..one thing is for certain. You ideas of what the theory of evolution is...are very VERY out of date or just outright wrong!

    Now I`m off to bed. Keep the insults off IAB. You know we dont like flamewars.

  104. Profile photo of Calderis
    Calderis Male 18-29
    326 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 5:25 pm
    "Science is based on observations and not evidence"

    If something can be observed, it can be recorded, and is therefore evidence.

  105. Profile photo of SoupaMario
    SoupaMario Male 18-29
    221 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 6:02 pm
    If I was there on that campus, I would have jumped in front of the camera and just started singing the Growing Pains theme song out loud.
  106. Profile photo of ilovesean23
    ilovesean23 Female 18-29
    109 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 6:25 pm
    I dont see why you cant have evolution AND God. just because it was done in "seven days" doesnt mean that was seven 24 hour periods. I believe in a God and I believe in evolution, Im not naive enough to take the bible at a word for word basis. In science, people often had to have faith, in what they believed and what they were trying to prove. Why should religion be any other way?
  107. Profile photo of _Darling_
    _Darling_ Female 18-29
    13 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 6:28 pm
    Regardless of the subject matter, I am always down for seeing Kirk get pwned.
  108. Profile photo of Conejito1011
    Conejito1011 Female 13-17
    120 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 6:33 pm
    I can`t hear a thing they`re saying because of the DISTRACTING TRUMPET!!! Plus, it was too long and boring.
  109. Profile photo of Maelstrom_x
    Maelstrom_x Male 18-29
    1883 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 6:35 pm
    Kick Cameron, not to be confused with Kirk Cameron.
  110. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 6:38 pm
    Kirk Cameron is hilarious. I love that he`s still pushing the whole "I believe in microevolution but not macroevolution" thing. Good stuff.
  111. Profile photo of SilverThread
    SilverThread Male 30-39
    3435 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 6:52 pm
    Useless video, almost indecipherable and it pertains to a subject that is as moot as debating color theory with an earthworm.
  112. Profile photo of yellowsquare
    yellowsquare Female 18-29
    1545 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 6:55 pm
    YEAH UCLA!

    Kirks` Super Jesus A-Team were on the University of Minnesota campus, too. Luckily, I was late for class and didn`t have the time of day for them. They would`ve regretted giving me one of their books.

  113. Profile photo of miasmaat
    miasmaat Female 18-29
    298 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 7:19 pm
    O man Kirk Cameron is such a tool.
    and google agrees - see predictive text. I cant be bothered uploading it but type "kirk cameron is" in and check it out!!!
  114. Profile photo of ANCB
    ANCB Male 18-29
    176 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 7:34 pm
    Well said SilverThread. I think you`re right, sadly.
  115. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10443 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 7:48 pm
    As awesome as this might be, I can`t stand grainy badly recorded videos with sound that`s 80% static and 19% random background music.

    ... Least of all for 7 minutes.

    So you`ll have to forgive me skipping this.

  116. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10443 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 7:59 pm
    lol @ maddux32 the cavehead.

    Props to all who have enough time to argue with him.

    I can`t though, I`m too busy inventing fusion power. I think I`ll be done before he admits the Earth is round.

  117. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 8:21 pm
    Even though it`s a bit old now, I had stuff to do, so I`m going to address this now.

    You misinterpreted what I said. I didn`t say that we couldn`t do cool tricks in labs with bacteria. I said we couldn`t recreate life out of raw materials. Reading comprehension is a valued commodity.

    I understood you perfectly. You are the one who seems not to know what you`re talking about. I addressed that you said we couldn`t produce results that validated DARWIN`S THEORY in a lab. We have, as Darwin`s theory concerns evolution, and we have seen evolution both in the lab and in the field.

    However, you then move the line by saying "making life". Evolution HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO SAY ON THE ORIGINS OF LIFE. Zip. Zilch. Nada. It concerns itself only with what happened to life AFTER it formed. The Abiogenesis Theory is entirely separate and distinct from the Theory of Evolution.

  118. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 8:30 pm
    I`m pretty sure I got bingo from maddux`s posts alone.

  119. Profile photo of Dextrine
    Dextrine Male 18-29
    483 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 9:15 pm
    there doesn`t need to be a why
  120. Profile photo of oceanbeast
    oceanbeast Male 18-29
    549 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 9:36 pm
    whats with the random zatterain`s trumpet work making this video totally unwatachable?
  121. Profile photo of ImTakingOver
    ImTakingOver Male 18-29
    388 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 10:08 pm
    Kirk Cameron is an idiot, what else is new?
  122. Profile photo of belunan
    belunan Male 30-39
    1507 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 10:22 pm
    "I`m pretty sure I got bingo from maddux`s posts alone."

    LMFAO.

  123. Profile photo of SpoonFork
    SpoonFork Male 30-39
    1265 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 11:08 pm
    They both sound stupid and debate talking points. There`s enough fails for everybody. Like, you know, for sure.
  124. Profile photo of Negative_One
    Negative_One Male 30-39
    2584 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 11:16 pm
    Their all wrong, we`re derived from a giant mucus amoeba from Metalopis 12. DUUH!
  125. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15782 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 11:20 pm
    Oh Kirk... you lovable dunce, you.
  126. Profile photo of SpoonFork
    SpoonFork Male 30-39
    1265 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 11:31 pm
    lol it takes all of kirk`s patience to listen to this girl. i`d have probably made an excuse to do something else long ago. all the points they both brought up have been debated to death and only somebody that young has the fortitude to slog through all that first level bullpoo.
  127. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3299 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 11:45 pm
    i had to google who kirk cameron was...
  128. Profile photo of RecycleElf
    RecycleElf Male 18-29
    3622 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 11:52 pm
    i dont hear a thing they say >.<
    ffs why isn`t this texted?? seriusly!?
  129. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 12:03 am
    It really is sad to see the state to which evolutionists supporters have devolved in promoting their misunderstandings of science, physics, microbiology, thermo nuclear dynamics, and whatever intellectual discipline they want to claim mastery to over the internet. It always goes the same way.

    OOOOHHHHHH Look at the silly little Christian promoting his ignorance. Hand him a banana...look how it fits in his hand...wwhooooooooo!!!!!

    After you get over that initial part, then it`s moves onto categorizing the basic arguments against evolution onto a bingo card in another humorous attempt to belittle those argument by attacking the character of the person making the argument. Whenever a point is made it`s always, "oh he`s just a sheep being led by the masses, he don`t know what the eff he`s talking about". So predictable. So infantile. Pathetic.

    But onward.....

  130. Profile photo of FIRST_poster
    FIRST_poster Male 18-29
    970 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 12:05 am
    @tonyjet
    ditto
  131. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15782 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 12:14 am
    Madd, I keep reading (skimming) your posts... and honestly, I`m confused. What exactly is your opinion on evolution/creationism/Kirk Cameron?
  132. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 12:22 am
    Furthermore, most of these amateurs arguing in support of evolution always scurry back to their safety net of circular logic when confronted with something they cannot explain.

    There is of course no scientific law or demonstrable process that would let something evolve from nothing. Nothing. Nothing. And no matter what you believe about God, according to our scientific laws, in order for us to be here, something had to have been here before us. UNLESS, that thing is not bound to our scientific laws, in which case it would be exempt.

    The response to this is always going to be, given enough time, anything can happen, even if it`s not mathematically possible.

    There is nothing in scientific law that allows for non-living objects coming to life out of non-living materials. All of the science behind evolution is based on things that are already living. There is no science to back non-living material forming into life with a genetic instructions on how to exist.

  133. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 12:29 am
    Lastly, show me the evidence that conclusively proves that humans have evolved from Apes. Go ahead, you have the whole internet at your fingertips. Post whatever proof you think conclusively proves this.

    The fact of the matter is that the evidence is pathetic. Examine the fossil record. In 2009, it is a well documented fact that there is no steady progression that links apes to humans at all. Fossils have been found where they were not supposed to be found, in the wrong time periods...it`s all one big amalgamated mess, that in honesty, requires the theory of evolution to be revised to retain it`s credibility heading into the next 50-100 years of debate. The fossil record is in my opinion, THE MOST damming evidence against evolution.

  134. Profile photo of atlacatl
    atlacatl Male 18-29
    342 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 12:43 am
    So.... Who the hell is Kirk Cameron and how is creationism and evolution even relevant to how my daily life goes? Be it flying spagetti monster, raptor jesus or Darwin himself putting hand in how things came about, nothing of that sort dictates how I go on a daily grind to get food on my plate. Beliefs are beliefs and they should hold firm to an individual`s extent.

    The way these students argued was sloppy. The repeated "oh, * insert changed tone of voice to sound disgruntled*", repeated `like` and `um`, and silly comments that just hold no purpose in the debate.

  135. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 12:53 am
    Fossils have been found where they were not supposed to be found, in the wrong time periods...it`s all one big amalgamated mess, that in honesty, requires the theory of evolution to be revised to retain it`s credibility heading into the next 50-100 years of debate. The fossil record is in my opinion, THE MOST damming evidence against evolution.

    All theories are revised over time as we find new information. This is nothing new. It`s the way science WORKS. Only religion assumes it`s right from the start and then blocks all inquiry that may prove it wrong. Science EVOLVES.

    That said, the fossil record supports evolution fabulously. You simply don`t want it to, but your wants are meaningless. We have a clear progression of fossils that show whales evolving from land animals to ocean creatures. We have more human ancestor fossils than we ever could have dreamed. We have clear fossil evidence of dinosaurs evolving into modern birds. (Continued next)

  136. Profile photo of Yaezakura
    Yaezakura Female 18-29
    385 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 12:56 am
    What seems a mess to you is organized clearly to trained professionals who know what the hell they`re doing. You don`t even know the most basic elements of what you`re trying to argue against, let alone the fine detail needed to make sense of geological formations and the fossils they contain.

    Seriously, just give up. You`re clearly demonstrated you haven`t the foggiest idea what you`re talking about. You`re just spouting the same old bullpoo creationists like Kirk Cameron and Ken Ham have been spouting for decades, with no better chance of it working now than it did then.

  137. Profile photo of bankvole
    bankvole Male 30-39
    959 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 12:59 am
    Maddux32, you really don`t know what you`re talking about. What is scientific law? Science is the experimental study of the physical and natural world. We explain things based on fact and evidence. We don`t have a fixed law that claims to explain everything (or if we did science would no longer be necessary). What we do have is overwhelming evidence behind evolution by natural selection. As opposed to a blind faith based on a collection of books written by tribal elders a couple of thousand years ago.
  138. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 1:01 am
    As I said Maddux. Evolution occurs.
    You have admitted such.

    I said: You redefined evolution.

    You said: Who redefined evolution? I think everybody here has a clear understanding of what it is and what it implies.

    You then posited Darwinian theory.

    Let me point this out. Newtonian Physics is wrong. That is why there have been hundreds of iterations since Newton posited his theory.

    I do not claim atoms don`t exist because newton was wrong. Or Gravity is a lie. It`s all a theory.

    You differentiating it into "The Theory of Evolution" tagging it with pure Darwinian theory, and claiming Darwin (and only Darwin, with no deviation) was wrong.

    You are claiming Evolution (in total) does not happen because Darwin made mistakes.

    You are not claiming Gravity does not happen because Newton made mistakes.

    Evolution occurs, and as I said, you can watch it. The theory is a theory because it is not finished explaining the process.

  139. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 1:07 am
    Lets make is simpler.

    There is evolution we can watch occur. We can watch it in various ways. Microbiology is the easiest, but there are several cases of larger species demonstrating evolution.

    What you have to argue Mad, is that at some point in the past, evolution did not occur. That is what it takes for you to be correct.

    Now you have to give a reason why.

    Furthermore, God, by any definition, by simple reasoning, must be a God of processes. Yet you are suggesting that God created, in completeness, the world, and then allowed it to evolve from that point on.

    You are then also arguing he would not have started the world at an earlier point.

    Why? Does God have a schedule he`s trying to keep?

    Logically, even in Religion, evolution is the only conclusion that makes sense.

  140. Profile photo of gymcoach29
    gymcoach29 Male 30-39
    363 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 2:46 am
    Maddux You said and I quote "It really is sad to see the state to which evolutionists supporters have devolved in promoting their misunderstandings of science"...etc, and then you state
    "Lastly, show me the evidence that conclusively proves that humans have evolved from Apes."

    THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT PROVES HUMANS EVOLVED FROM APES!!! Why? Becauce NO ONE said there was!...Oh I am sure someone said it...but that is because they did not understand the Science as you have so clearly demonstrated....Darwin, whom I assume you are referring to said that apes and humans traveled along the same evolutionary pathline and at some point split off...we share a common ancestor that is NOT the same thing as evolving from apes. If you are going to argue science, at least get the science right. I am a Science professor and this concept is basic 7th grade science.

  141. Profile photo of Batmanners
    Batmanners Male 18-29
    4007 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 2:57 am
    Why does EVERY SINGLE I-A-B creation vs religion video spark the same people to jump in and start ranting???

    Watch the video, or don`t then shut up.

    I didn`t watch this video because whoever recorded it, couldn`t afford a good phone to record it with...

    IMO all cell phone videos are absolute garbage.

    DEATH TO CELL PHONE CAMERAS!

  142. Profile photo of Batmanners
    Batmanners Male 18-29
    4007 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:00 am
    gymcoach29 said : "I am a Science professor"

    Buddy, I think your name just refuted your professorial claims. The only science at works in your "field" is human body kinetics, at high impact.

  143. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:14 am
    Look at all these science professors popping up on the internet with all of there full proof arguments. Gee, I guess I was wrong all along. Time to end the debate here and now....the people on the interwebs said so.

    The majority of you are arguing irrelevant (and incorrect points) regarding the definitions of laws and theories, and the other half base their arguments on things they assume to be true. There is no way to intelligently argue against that kind of reasoning, and IAB doesn`t offer the best venue to do so.

    It`s like arguing against a Christian who says they everything they say is true because the Bible says so. At that point your not even playing the same game, so it`s pointless to argue.

    Most of you say I have no idea what I`m talking about, and base that on offering absolutely nothing. The one person who makes an attempt is so far off the mark, (Yaezakura) is there even a point?

  144. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:20 am
    If your going to argue intelligently....start here.

    What is the your best argument in favor of evolution. For example, my best argument against evolution (or the one that convinces me the most, maybe not others), is the fact that evolution is mathematically impossible. Yep, you`ve heard that over and over...yet can`t do anything about it because you have no relevant way to counter it.

    So what is your best argument for evolution? And I don`t want to hear answers such as...Everything, everything points to it, sciences A, B, and C, have proved it, we need vaccines because viruses evolve, because I`m sure you know the stock responses, which can only be stock responses because they respond to stock (generic, most common) answers.

  145. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:22 am
    I`m not BS`ing you.

    Yes, you are. I`ve just watched the video you linked to, which was not what you claimed it was.

    Firstly, Dawkins stated repeatedly that he didn`t know the answer to the question of the origin of life, which is a position dismetrically opposed to creationism (and yes, I.D. is creationism).

    Secondly, Dawkins did not speak against evolution or in favour of creationism, because he was just discussing possibilities for the origin of self-replicating molecules on Earth.

    Thirdly, Dawkins was not talking about the origins of life at all, just the origins of life on Earth. So again, nothing to do with creationism.

    Fourthly, Dawkins was not advocating Christian creationism, which is what I.D. is.

    It`s theoretically possible for humans to terraform Venus or Mars. Bacteria, possibly genetically engineered or made, would be part of that. Would that make humanity The Creator?

  146. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:26 am
    ", is the fact that evolution is mathematically impossible. Yep, you`ve heard that over and over...yet can`t do anything about it because you have no relevant way to counter it. "

    Bzzt. Wrong. Evolution is inevitable. When conditions exist for life, all that is needed to make evolution happen is a single mutation in a single organism giving it the capacity for change.

    "The majority of you are arguing irrelevant (and incorrect points) regarding the definitions of laws and theories"

    Wrong again, you do NOT demonstrate an understanding of the scientific nomenclature. A theory is an idea supported with mountains of evidence that has never been refuted or shown to be wrong. Gravity is a theory, nuclear theory is a theory, evolution is a theory.

    Evolution is as much a fact as nuclear theory. Denying evolution is as valid as denying nuclear theory.

  147. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:31 am
    "There is evolution we can watch occur. We can watch it in various ways. Microbiology is the easiest, but there are several cases of larger species demonstrating evolution."

    Interesting, but evolution that you can watch is not the same thing as evolution that occurs over billions of years, is it? Here`s a question. Is micro-evolution a necessary or a sufficient aspect of evolution in general. There are massive implications for proving one or the other.

    "What you have to argue Mad, is that at some point in the past, evolution did not occur. That is what it takes for you to be correct."

    I don`t think this is the central issue. My argument began with the universe being created through intelligent design. What that design entails, I don`t know. Nobody can deny the fact that viruses evolve or other things of that nature evolve. But there are serious implications inherent in claiming certain aspects of evolution, and science does not support the majority of

  148. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:34 am
    "What is the your best argument in favor of evolution."

    Evolution can be observed locally through examples of low-scale adaptation. One example is the evolution of bacteria to become resistant to antibiotics. Scientists can introduce a selection pressure to a group and only the few with a mutation that enables them to survive will do so. Evolution in action. Or, another example, the Peppered Moth. Originally white to blend in with trees, it evolved to become black in order to blend in with the trees of a soot-blanketed industrial England.

    For examples of long-term evolution, we turn to the fossil record. We can trace the evolution of many organisms back hundreds of thousands or millions of years.

  149. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:35 am
    And as corollary, atavisms are predicted and understood through evolution. An atavism is a trait predominant in an earlier organism that is no longer needed. Human fetuses develop tails, then lose them. Whales have a skeletal structure like terrestrial mammals, and occasionally a mutation yields legs on a whale. These traits make absolutely no sense if you view them with a perspective other than that the organism is descended from a very different organism.
  150. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:36 am
    Sure, he`s a man of science and reason...and he concluded that it was a likely possibility that we are here by intelligent design, even if that intelligence came from Aliens. Thats my point.

    A point which, as usual, you are making up.

    That`s not what he said even in that video clip from a wholly biased film that people were deliberately misled into appearing on and asked leading questions (with unwanted answers ignored).

    It`s a possibility that The Matrix is a true accounting of events and what we think is the universe is actually a very convincing virtual reality.

    It`s a possibility that we and everything we know of is actually a game running on a computer and we`re just NPCs.

    Many things are a possibility. That doesn`t mean that they are likely ones or that we should forget about trying to discover who the universe works.

  151. Profile photo of ohthedrama
    ohthedrama Male 30-39
    162 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:38 am
    @maddux32: "All things being equal, the simplest solution is usually the best". We have undeniably proved the Earth is more than 6500 years old and have undeniably proved that the human race goes back millions of years. We have also shown that the human race has gone through "changes". We are not what we were 100 years ago, 1000 years ago, 1,000,000 million years ago. Also genetic mutation is normative in nature. Viruses mutate, cells mutate, plants mutate. This is typical, this is the law of nature. Mutation is a fundamental building block of nature. If mutation is fundamental then doesn`t it make a lot more sense that life on Earth has evolved due to mutation rather than spontaneous creation? Creationism is not science. It is a mythical account of humanity that is supposed to teach us about the theological genesis of humankind and it`s relationship to God. The day Christian Fundamentalists begin to read the Bible to learn about God and stop using it as a science o
  152. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:38 am
    If this is true...than why hasn`t it been ignored. I`ll answer that for you. It`s because people who are way smarter than you and me....can`t.

    You`re answering for yourself. Your answer is wrong. Some advocates of creationism are very intelligent, some aren`t. The reason it isn`t discarded is faith. Religion and intelligence aren`t the same thing.

  153. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:38 am
    "Bzzt. Wrong. Evolution is inevitable. When conditions exist for life, all that is needed to make evolution happen is a single mutation in a single organism giving it the capacity for change."

    What makes it inevitable? I`m just throwing this out there, but what if a monkey effed a goat and made a Giraffe, and this was the source of the genetic change? The fact that this is a possibility means that your statement is an assumption, which makes your statement by definition, not inevitable.

    "Wrong again, you do NOT demonstrate an understanding of the scientific nomenclature. A theory is an idea supported with mountains of evidence that has never been refuted or shown to be wrong."

    A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. A theory is valid as long as there is no evidence to dispute it.Therefore, theories can be disproven. Most evolutionists don`t accept the fact that there is evidence to

  154. Profile photo of ohthedrama
    ohthedrama Male 30-39
    162 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:39 am
    r history book, is the day when life becomes less complex.
  155. Profile photo of reor
    reor Male 13-17
    36 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:42 am
    *Googles Theory of evolution*
    *put on Glasses*
    *log onto IAB*

    *Parade around as if you have a PhD in the current topic of issue*

    come on guys,I think we have all played pokemon here evolution is clearly possible.

    (Implying that pokemon has as much relevance here as much as heated god vs science debates)

  156. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:46 am
    It`s alwasy going to go back to how it started.

    Then you admit that the clip you posted is useless, because Dawkins explicitly stated that no-one knew the answer. So why did you post it?

    If we are here by ID, and aliens did it, then who made the aliens?

    And, apparently, didn`t watch it yourself. You`re begging the question. Or are you doing it deliberately to try to lead people into making the assumption of creationism implicit in your question?

    We`ve had all the stuff, all the essential materials, the perfect environment, but we have never come close to bringing a single cell to life. It hasn`t happened, we haven`t come close.

    Most of the job has already been done in making life from some bags of chemicals. It`s very close - ribosomes have already been made.

    The day that we do I`ll change my position.

    I doubt it. Your position is faith - evidence is irrelevant.

  157. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:46 am
    "Many things are a possibility. That doesn`t mean that they are likely ones or that we should forget about trying to discover who the universe works."

    Agreed. So then we get back to the point. If this is true. Why eliminate the possibility of intelligent design and assume that we know everything there is to know about everything, and everything we know precludes a god that intelligently designed the universe. There is clearly not enough to end this discussion. Clearly! Not when none of us are clear as to what went down, and why we are here. The problem I have with athiests, and evolutionists is that they irrationally rule out God, but accept that it`s possible that purple unicorns from Mars impregnated the earth with life. And they do this mostly because they hate religion, not God...although there are exceptions to that.

  158. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:49 am
    Science is based on observations and not evidence

    What do you think evidence is?

    The fundamental point is that evolution is a theory as is God. Neither can be proved!

    You clearly have absolutely no idea what "theory" means in a scientific context, which makes your opinion on it meaningless.

  159. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:51 am
    "Then you admit that the clip you posted is useless, because Dawkins explicitly stated that no-one knew the answer. So why did you post it?"

    It`s not pointless. It`s a demonstration that even the most ardent of atheists has not closed the door to other possibilities. I don`t see the harm in that, and I don`t see why you would be offended by that.

    "And, apparently, didn`t watch it yourself. You`re begging the question. Or are you doing it deliberately to try to lead people into making the assumption of creationism implicit in your question?"

    I watched the whole movie, and I`m not sure what your getting at here. I`m not deliberately trying to lead people into my way of thinking anymore than you are trying to do the same.

    "Most of the job has already been done in making life from some bags of chemicals. It`s very close - ribosomes have already been made."

    Yeah, that happened back in May. Call me when we get there.

  160. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:52 am
    I doubt it. Your position is faith - evidence is irrelevant.

    I do have faith that a God exist, and my faith stems from my belief in intelligent design. And I have no more faith in that, than you do about evolution. So what`s your point? Disprove intelligent design, I`ll renounce my faith.

  161. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:53 am
    I said we couldn`t recreate life out of raw materials. Reading comprehension is a valued commodity.

    Then why aren`t you seeking it? You don`t know what evolution is. You don`t know the difference between abiogenesis and evolution. You don`t know the difference between possible and likely. You don`t know the difference between creating life, modifying life and moving existing life somewhere else.

    You could read and learn those things.

  162. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:55 am
    "What makes it inevitable? I`m just throwing this out there, but what if a monkey effed a goat and made a Giraffe, and this was the source of the genetic change? The fact that this is a possibility means that your statement is an assumption, which makes your statement by definition, not inevitable. "

    You have not done the research. I am talking about single-celled organisms, simple ones, where transcription errors in mRNA can yield entirely new traits upon cellular division. Organisms of different species are genetically incompatible, but sexual reproduction combined with random mutation allows for a wide range of traits to be expressed, even those differing from the parents.

    If you have a batch of bacteria, evolution will happen the instant you apply a chemical or heat or anything that will kill most of them. The ones that survive will be the ones with traits that let them survive. They will reproduce and the whole population will get the trait. Evolution.

  163. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:57 am
    "You`re answering for yourself. Your answer is wrong. Some advocates of creationism are very intelligent, some aren`t. The reason it isn`t discarded is faith. Religion and intelligence aren`t the same thing."

    Most intelligent people who have faith have considered the implications of that faith. Many who grew up with faith discarded it upon their own conclusions regarding the origins of the universe. Likewise, those who are intelligent and have held to their faith have done so out of their own conclusions regarding the origins of the universe.

  164. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:57 am
    I can`t though, I`m too busy inventing fusion power.

    Don`t bother - you can`t invent something that`s been around for billions of years. Artificial fusion power by humans was invented decades ago.

    What you should be looking for is controllable economic fusion power, a very different kettle of fish.

  165. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:58 am
    "A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. A theory is valid as long as there is no evidence to dispute it.Therefore, theories can be disproven. "

    Yes, and dismissing evolution because it might be disproved is as accurate as dismissing nuclear theory because it might be disproved or dismissing GRAVITY because it might be disproved.

    Things fall. That`s a fact. Organisms change. That`s a fact. The theory of gravity explains why and how matter has mutual attraction, and the theory of evolution explains why and how organisms change over time.

    Intelligent design is not a scientific claim, and can not be. It violates basic principles of science in that it is not testable and invokes the supernatural.

  166. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:59 am
    "Most intelligent people who have faith have considered the implications of that faith. Many who grew up with faith discarded it upon their own conclusions regarding the origins of the universe. Likewise, those who are intelligent and have held to their faith have done so out of their own conclusions regarding the origins of the universe."

    Faith is a very poor thing to base scientific understanding on.

  167. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 3:59 am
    "You have not done the research. I am talking about single-celled organisms, simple ones, where transcription errors in mRNA can yield entirely new traits upon cellular division. Organisms of different species are genetically incompatible, but sexual reproduction combined with random mutation allows for a wide range of traits to be expressed, even those differing from the parents."

    And you have? I know what you are talking about. I`ve heard the arguments, I know this happens. Take a blow torch to a cows face and see if he evolves a defense for that. Then I`ll put more weight into it.

  168. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 4:00 am
    "Faith is a very poor thing to base scientific understanding on."

    Reading comprehension will be very valuable to you as you advance in your studies.

  169. Profile photo of maddux32
    maddux32 Male 30-39
    926 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 4:03 am
    "Then why aren`t you seeking it? You don`t know what evolution is. You don`t know the difference between abiogenesis and evolution. You don`t know the difference between possible and likely. You don`t know the difference between creating life, modifying life and moving existing life somewhere else."

    And you don`t know the difference between sound logic, and gibberish...good arguments, and absurd arguments. You don`t know what the eff you`re talking about otherwise you`d stop making these ridiculous posts that have no merit other than to start a flame war with somebody. And you`re over 40. Sad.

  170. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 4:05 am
    "And you have? I know what you are talking about. I`ve heard the arguments, I know this happens. Take a blow torch to a cows face and see if he evolves a defense for that. Then I`ll put more weight into it."

    By the same logic I might as well say that because no cow spontaneously appeared next to me, ID must be false.

    Evolution applies over a long period of time to a species, not individuals. None of the bacteria will suddenly change to have a new trait- they will suffer errors during reproduction. Most are bad. Some are good. This process requires a long period of time for most organisms, but for a great example of short-term evolution, look at evolved resistance to antibiotics.

    "Reading comprehension will be very valuable to you as you advance in your studies. "

    Surely you don`t mean to say that faith wouldn`t bias any attempt to reach a conclusion.

  171. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 4:11 am
    Lastly, show me the evidence that conclusively proves that humans have evolved from Apes. Go ahead, you have the whole internet at your fingertips. Post whatever proof you think conclusively proves this.

    Who`s saying that humans evolved from apes? I think you`re showing your ignorance of biology and evolution again.

    It`s reasonable to say humans *are* apes. A species of ape with significant differences to other apes, but still apes.

    Conclusive proof isn`t the issue. Overwhelming evidence isn`t conclusive proof. Conclusive proof only exists in maths. Science always allows for the possibility, however small, of error. Which, incidentally, is just one of the many ways in which creationism isn`t science.

    It`s impossible to prove evolution and common ancestry to a creationist - you can simply believe that any evidence for it is just evidence of a common creator. So why would anyone waste their time trying?

  172. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 4:12 am
    "Take a blow torch to a cows face and see if he evolves a defense for that."

    A cow cannot evolve.
    Cows can evolve as a plural.

    If you took a blowtorch to 1 billion cows, and 10 survived, those 10 cows that for some reason are more blowtorch resistant cows would go on to breed. Thus making cows that are on average more blowtorch resistant than your average cow. (Slightly thicker skin, slightly less sensitive skin, etc).

    Frogs have already been shown to react to a new environment in such a fashion.

    You are arguing against a process we are watching, and my question remains unanswered, why when evolution *does* happen, are you suggesting it doesn`t happen for a few select cases 6500 years ago, with a God who simply does not function in the way you are describing.

  173. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 4:16 am
    Most of you say I have no idea what I`m talking about, and base that on offering absolutely nothing.

    You have repeatedly demonstrated that you do not know what "theory" means in a scientific context, that you do not know what the theory of evolution is, that you do not know the difference between basic concepts such as "possible" and "likely", that you don`t know the difference between abiogenesis and evolution...etc, etc.

    All that has to be sorted out before it would be possible to actually argue intelligently with you.

    Not that it matters on IAB, where threads more than a couple of days old are effectively obsolete.

  174. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 4:21 am
    I`m just throwing this out there, but what if a monkey effed a goat and made a Giraffe, and this was the source of the genetic change? The fact that this is a possibility means that your statement is an assumption, which makes your statement by definition, not inevitable.

    You are now arguing that it`s a possibility that giraffes are naturally occuring crossbreeds of monkeys and goats.

    Do you really wonder why people are saying that you don`t have any understanding of what evolution is?

  175. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 4:25 am
    FFS, you can even do a human study.

    1) It makes perfect sense that in an environment where all X people survive and all Y people die, more X people genes are passed on.
    1a) Where Y is: Taller, Blacker, Stronger, Shorter, Smarter, whatever.
    2) We know mutations occur.
    3) We know mutations can give these attributes.

    If you are suggesting of these are the case, there is no point arguing against evolution. It must occur under those conditions.

    If you want a logic throwdown here Maddux, I`m an AI/Compsci graduate. I specialized in large scale Social Simulations as my final year project. One of my pet projects was 3D cellular automata.

    If you want we can go over any simulation of evolution in practice, and we can go over the math, the logic, or anything else you`d like.

  176. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 4:26 am
    I do have faith that a God exist, and my faith stems from my belief in intelligent design. And I have no more faith in that, than you do about evolution. So what`s your point? Disprove intelligent design, I`ll renounce my faith.

    It is impossible to disprove intelligent design to you because you have faith in it. Faith exists with complete disregard for evidence, so evidence cannot disprove faith.

    You said that you`d renounce your faith if humans created life from scratch in a lab. That has almost happened and appears very likely to happen within a couple of years. You will not renounce your faith because of it.

    I don`t have any faith in evolution. I`m going on evidence, not faith. Two completely different things.

  177. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 4:33 am
    I watched the whole movie, and I`m not sure what your getting at here. I`m not deliberately trying to lead people into my way of thinking anymore than you are trying to do the same.

    Then you`re begging the question, in exactly the same way as was being done (and pointed out as being done) right at the start of the video clip you say you watched.

    Asking "Who created ?" contains as an inherent assumption that a person did the creating. The question itself leads people into accepting the assumption - it isn`t possible to answer the question as stated without making that assumption and the question makes that assumption unquestionable.

    The classic, but much less subtle, example of this sort of thing is "have you stopped beating your children?", a question that includes the assumption that you routinely beat your children.

  178. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 4:35 am
    drat it further.
    Lets do a real life study.

    Lets say we have a cataclysmic event that kills everyone except black people. (Lets say the sun picks up a notch and only people with high levels of Melanin don`t die of skin cancer).

    Does the average human now look:
    A) Darker.
    B) Whiter.
    C) No change.

    If you answered C, you`re an idiot. The average has changed. In fact humanity is now made of exclusively blacks.

    "But this reduces the gene pool, not increases it"

    Evolution does not just occur with cataclysms but also with opportunities. Stephen hawking is useless in neolithic times, currently he is one of the most useful men on earth.

    His genes are now useful, and can fit in a niche that previously did not exist.

    You can pick a scenario, and ask the question "What would happen". The *necessary* answers say evolution occurs.

  179. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 4:37 am
    And you don`t know the difference between sound logic, and gibberish...good arguments, and absurd arguments. You don`t know what the eff you`re talking about otherwise you`d stop making these ridiculous posts that have no merit other than to start a flame war with somebody. And you`re over 40. Sad.

    Everything I wrote is true, and provably true. I`m playing with a troll, because I have some time to spare and it`s mildly entertaining.

    Yes, I do think you`re trolling. You`re too blatantly and determinedly ignorant to be for real and this subject is fertile trolling ground. You`ve made it more obviously recently by making ever more ridiculous claims, such as giraffes being the result of sex between monkeys and goats and a reasonable test of the theory of evolution being whether a cow can instantaneously evolve extreme resistance to fire.

  180. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 4:43 am
    Wanna argue with me instead Angillion?

    Cheese and ham pizza is an abomination.

  181. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12151 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 4:58 am
    Yes, I do think you`re trolling. You`re too blatantly and determinedly ignorant to be for real and this subject is fertile trolling ground. You`ve made it more obviously recently by making ever more ridiculous claims...

    Agreed. This is the main reason why I didn`t join in - anyone who lists their religion on their profile as "agnostic" and then wheels out a farcical caricature like this smells of troll to me...

  182. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 4:58 am
    Wanna argue with me instead Angillion?

    Cheese and ham pizza is an abomination.

    OK, let`s go!

    You`ve been led into a common mistranslation of the ancient Jewish religious concept labelled toevah. `Abomination` isn`t a good English translation of that concept, which is more varied and subtle, usually less serious. "Religiously inappropriate" might be a better translation, or maybe "religiously unclean", possibly "spiritually unclean" or maybe "religiously impure".

    I think the degree of toevah posed by ham and cheese pizza is relatively low and ceremonial purification should be sufficient, but I suggest consulting your rabbi.

    Alternatively, you might just be referring to the taste. Which is an abomination that could only be exceeded by a ham, cheese and Marmite pizza with V8 dressing. :)

  183. Profile photo of The_Maddog
    The_Maddog Male 30-39
    3371 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 5:09 am
    Yeah..I`m agreeing davymid!

    Anyone who says: "Take a blow torch to a cows face and see if he evolves a defense for that. Then I`ll put more weight into it" isnt being serious!

    I`ve kept out of this for the most part but it is pretty clear now he is trolling.

  184. Profile photo of faygo
    faygo Male 30-39
    339 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 5:41 am
    maybe the points made in the video are good but the goddamn trumpets and crap in the bg is obnoxious. I couldn`t get past 2 minutes...
  185. Profile photo of Cordite
    Cordite Male 18-29
    9 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 6:39 am
    Rough Richard Dawkins quote, cant find it in the book but ill make do from memory and I apologise if I have horribly butchered it)

    If we as humans are at the top of an impossibly tall cliff and the answer to the universe and everything is at the bottom, blind belief in creationism would have you jump from the cliff. But what if science offered you a step by step path to the bottom of the cliff? At no point does it tell you are wrong it merely offers you a comprehensive and safe method of making your way to the answer? So I ask you why would u jump?

  186. Profile photo of duffytoler
    duffytoler Male 40-49
    5196 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 6:56 am
    Muslims are also rabid anti-evolutionists. Christians think they`re different, but it`s the same mindless fanaticism.
  187. Profile photo of TTN_MSSam
    TTN_MSSam Male 18-29
    32 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 8:31 am
    ITT people take a complete misunderstanding of evolution and use that misunderstanding to justify their religion.
  188. Profile photo of hatti369
    hatti369 Female 18-29
    88 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 9:04 am
    I wouldn`t mind Kirk Cameron converting people so much if he wasn`t so stupid about it. You remember the banana conversion? lol.
  189. Profile photo of Noamfer
    Noamfer Male 13-17
    172 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 10:46 am
    I could hardly understand what they are saying..
  190. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 11:07 am
    Cheese and Ham pizza is not an abomination, it`s just you have to put the jam on after it is cooked and no one remembers to do that.
  191. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 11:10 am
    Cordite- you are right of course, but there are plenty of self destructive idiots out there. Refusal to modify ones beliefs in the face of overwhlming evidence is self destructive, lets just hope they don`t take the rest of us with them.
  192. Profile photo of snottydyck
    snottydyck Male 40-49
    695 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 11:17 am
    this guy is obviously quite insane
  193. Profile photo of HornplayerKC
    HornplayerKC Male 18-29
    7 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 11:47 am
    YEAH WAGNER`S HORN CALL AT 0:52 F*** YEAH. Also, someone`s playing Caravan by Duke Ellington at 5:17. I wish I was there.

    But yeah, that`s all my horn player side talking. He totally got schooled. She really backed him into a corner at the end there. I kind of also wished that I could hear what he was saying...

  194. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25408 posts
    November 25, 2009 at 12:09 pm
    They will neve prove darwins theory and creationism!
  195. Profile photo of helix25
    helix25 Male 18-29
    165 posts
    November 26, 2009 at 12:20 am
    I think these people should all take a Physical Anthropology class which I am taking and literally it changed my view on evolution. As a believer I can actually believe in both.
  196. Profile photo of RobSwindol
    RobSwindol Male 30-39
    2510 posts
    November 26, 2009 at 1:25 am
    There is far too much going on for my brain to process this at 3:25 am

  197. Profile photo of Kneller
    Kneller Male 18-29
    8 posts
    November 26, 2009 at 8:23 am
    "They will never prove darwins theory..."

    You, sir, are full of fail.

  198. Profile photo of Rimando898
    Rimando898 Male 13-17
    32 posts
    November 26, 2009 at 11:30 am
    Yay, Chameleon by Herbie Hancock is playing on the background!
  199. Profile photo of Space_girl
    Space_girl Female 18-29
    627 posts
    November 26, 2009 at 5:58 pm
    Oh, kirk
  200. Profile photo of mntlmstrbtr
    mntlmstrbtr Male 30-39
    737 posts
    November 26, 2009 at 11:32 pm
    This is about as difficult to understand as it is possible to be difficult to understand.
  201. Profile photo of anuthernoob
    anuthernoob Female 18-29
    30 posts
    November 28, 2009 at 4:58 am
    Intelligent design is for people who have conflicts between their need for a belief in a higher power and the glaring facts provided by science. If you think about it, ID is really a cop out.

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