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Category: Science
Date: 10/13/09 01:07 PM

444 Responses to Christianity Vs. Atheism: What If You`re Wrong?

  1. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    October 12, 2009 at 7:54 pm
    Link: Christianity Vs. Atheism: What If You`re Wrong? - Earlier this week we had Kirk Cameron, today we have Richard Dawkins with a quick video. Bring your Flame Shields.
  2. Profile photo of Aprilizer
    Aprilizer Female 18-29
    84 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 1:42 pm
    BOOM
  3. Profile photo of Llamaz
    Llamaz Male 13-17
    339 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 1:42 pm
    Well, he sure owned that question.
  4. Profile photo of LemonTarte
    LemonTarte Female 18-29
    1441 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 1:44 pm
    Brilliant. This man is amazing.

    That girl probably thought that she would stump him with that question.

  5. Profile photo of TheSharpest
    TheSharpest Male 18-29
    1767 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 1:44 pm
    This sounds much more like an agnostic counterpoint than an atheist one. I know Dawkins is atheist, but I would call the video "Christianity vs. Agnosticism".
    Also, her argument was pretty weak.
  6. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 1:46 pm
    I brought marshmallows for the fire! :D
  7. Profile photo of Nurcowski
    Nurcowski Male 18-29
    264 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 1:47 pm
    Posting items like that on this website is kind of like putting two vicious dogs in a small cage to fight over a steak; and likewise should be a crime as well.
  8. Profile photo of audiosncracy
    audiosncracy Male 18-29
    185 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 1:47 pm
    PWNED!! Point is we all could be wrong. You should believe what you believe because you are compelled to believe it and not just because people around you are whatever religion.
  9. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 1:50 pm
    Nurco, do you want every link to just have comments like, "cool" or "lol"? I hope not. I love the debates on here. They`re the fiery passion behind I-A-B!
  10. Profile photo of YoSoyNoob
    YoSoyNoob Male 18-29
    57 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 1:50 pm
    What if I`m wrong about believing that there is a God? No consequence. What if your wrong about believing there is NOT a God? Big Consequence.
  11. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 1:51 pm
    Posting items like that on this website is kind of like putting two vicious dogs in a small cage to fight over a steak; and likewise should be a crime as well.

    You can thank whoever posted the Cameron or Camoron video.

    Anyway, I disagree. This kind of thing needs to be said and battled out. And the internet is a great medium, where you`ve got the greatest chance of being offended vs. zero chance of coming to any actual harm.

  12. Profile photo of boredfjord
    boredfjord Male 13-17
    928 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 1:54 pm
    A decent response to a stupid question. Every atheist is acutely aware of what will happen if we are wrong about the existence of the standard conception of the Christian God. We will be subjected to the slow torments of hell for all eternity, and the fact that that prospect doesn`t worry any atheist testifies to our confidence that the threats of hell from the Bible and from the sadistic brand of Christian who gets off threatening people with torture are completely idle. We fear no retribution from that in which we have no reason to believe.
  13. Profile photo of priz
    priz Male 18-29
    11 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 1:55 pm
    What a babbling douche bag.

  14. Profile photo of boredfjord
    boredfjord Male 13-17
    928 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 1:59 pm
    "What if I`m wrong about believing that there is a God? No consequence. What if your wrong about believing there is NOT a God? Big Consequence."

    Pacal`s Wager is a false dilemma. You have offered only two possibilities: that a person can believe in God and go to heaven or doubt God and go to hell. But you should also consider an almost infinite number of other possibilities: that God requires more than belief to grant admission to heaven, that God won`t let people into heaven just because they selfishly gamble that he exists, and most obviously that the Muslim God, or the Greek Gods, or the Hindu Gods, etc., are the true gods. There is no belief that protects you from the risk of some theoretical hell. So, we should adhere to those beliefs for which we at least have some decent evidence.

  15. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 1:59 pm
    "What if I`m wrong about believing that there is a God? No consequence."

    Other than knowing that you lived your entire life fearing one specific god from one specific religion (I notice you don`t take into account that there are other options than nothing or heaven -or conversely, hell- after death) and that it was a complete lie... yeah, then no consequences.

  16. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:00 pm
    Jord said it better than I did...
  17. Profile photo of Spirithound
    Spirithound Male 18-29
    814 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:00 pm
    "Other than knowing that you lived your entire life fearing one specific god from one specific religion..."

    If you`re afraid of God, you`re doing it wrong

  18. Profile photo of LemonTarte
    LemonTarte Female 18-29
    1441 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:01 pm
    YoSoyNoob, it depends on what the religion you subscribe to says the consequences are for non believers. For example big consequences, only if you believe in the Christian or Muslim god. Small consequences if you believe in the Hindu god (hinduism is a henotheistic relgion in where there is one god with many faces.
  19. Profile photo of FIRST_poster
    FIRST_poster Male 18-29
    970 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:01 pm
    hes right
  20. Profile photo of rcj
    rcj Female 18-29
    3 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:01 pm
    He still didn`t answer the question...
  21. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:01 pm
    Fear me! I am the ultimate-theist. I believe in every god that was ever believed or ever will be believed along with every god that could be believed under every circumstance that could ever occur!

    Only then can you be sure that you are NOT wrong.

  22. Profile photo of peloos12
    peloos12 Male 18-29
    3822 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:02 pm
    But what if you`re wrong about me being wrong about you being wrong about me being wrong about you being wrong? WHAT THEN, HOTSHOT? HM?
  23. Profile photo of brianlance
    brianlance Male 30-39
    140 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:03 pm
    YoSoyNoob: "What if I`m wrong about believing that there is a God? No consequence. What if your wrong about believing there is NOT a God? Big Consequence. "

    What if you are believing in the wrong god?

  24. Profile photo of brutalnewt
    brutalnewt Male 30-39
    111 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:03 pm
    Slightly off topic but I always liked the South Park where only Mormons were allowed into heaven and everyone else was in hell.
  25. Profile photo of qwelch
    qwelch Female 18-29
    145 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:07 pm
    Man, I was expecting a better response.
    All he said was basically anyone could be wrong, and people believe in different things.
    Totally avoided the question. :\
  26. Profile photo of Fatninja01
    Fatninja01 Male 30-39
    25420 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:07 pm
    Ownage!
  27. Profile photo of DiePSPolice
    DiePSPolice Male 30-39
    493 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:11 pm
    @YoSoyNoob: Yours is an old argument called "Pascal`s Wager". You can wikipedia it or google it. The fallacy in the argument is that it only presumes a JudeoChristian god that rewards believers or no god. What if there is a God that rewards only logical thinking and believes that religious faith is a moral failing? I will go to heaven as an atheist and you will go to hell? What if there is a god but he happens to hate Christians but thinks atheists are OK? What if there is a god, but he thinks people who worship simply because they`re worried about going to hell are the worst hypocrites of all, but atheists who do their best to make the world better because it`s the right thing to do should be rewarded? Your decision theory grid is not so clear cut anymore.

    I would like to add that a god who would punish a person who does good deeds his whole life but happens not to believe or worship, is not a god worth worshipping.

  28. Profile photo of Natzz-
    Natzz- Female 13-17
    158 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:11 pm
    The truth is nobody knows, and there is no evidence for either argument. People choose to believe (or not) on personal judgement alone, so insulting a person`s beliefs is effectively isulting their judgement, which won`t get you anywhere. What I`m trying to say is, we should all just agree to disagree, but I know that this can never happen!
  29. Profile photo of Molehouse
    Molehouse Male 13-17
    303 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:13 pm
    Why do people even discuss this? Can`t you just leave people to believe what they believe. If a religious person is converted by that guys book, they would have probably ended up in hell anyway.

    Who does this guy help anyway? I wouldn`t hate him quite as much if he did a decent job.

  30. Profile photo of ohthedrama
    ohthedrama Male 30-39
    162 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:13 pm
    Religious bigot. What more can you ask from Dawkins. Yes culture will determine how you are brought up, but it doesn`t answer the question. It wasn`t the best question in the world. Probably a better question would be, have you ever had faith in "anything"?
  31. Profile photo of cobrakiller
    cobrakiller Male 18-29
    7473 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:13 pm
    wow, he didnt answer the question. he did however bring up a good point: what religion you are is nearly entirely based on where you are brought up and who raises you. its all based on chance.
  32. Profile photo of Winter_ICE_0
    Winter_ICE_0 Male 13-17
    976 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:13 pm
    "people who worship simply because they`re worried about going to hell are the worst hypocrites of all"

    DiePSPolice... you took the words right out of my mouth.

  33. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:13 pm
    "What if I`m wrong about believing that there is a God? No consequence. What if your wrong about believing there is NOT a God? Big Consequence."

    You`re right that Atheists need to be more concerned about being wrong, but if you`re wrong for believing in Christianity (I`ll just assume you`re Christian), you would have two problems. 1) You`d have wasted your life believing in false ideas, and 2) If another religion, such as Hinduism, was correct, you would likely suffer in their Hell-like equivalent. That`s inherent with all religions. Remember, Atheism is not the only school of thought in which there isn`t a Unitarian God. The fact that Atheists don`t believe in God doesn`t make them more wrong if they are wrong...

  34. Profile photo of BrimstoneOne
    BrimstoneOne Male 30-39
    2229 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:15 pm
    Its rather funny, how there is no "right" nor "wrong" answer to "god". No matter the religion, it all about control. One group of elites having a following of idiots verses another group of elites with their following of idiots. Neither is holier than the other, just different groups of humans controlled and manipulated for the amusement of others.
  35. Profile photo of Sigon
    Sigon Male 18-29
    129 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:16 pm
    that was not Ownage...Pwnage or anything...he danced around the question and did not give an answer...he appeared very flustered and basically mocked the girl asking.
    I think thats the biggest thing with athiests that I find upsetting...that most athiests think and believe that a belief in a God or otherworldly entity is "stupid" or "uneducated". but in the end NO one truely knows what happens when we die, and I believe that anyone that claims they know for FACT what happend is the uneducated or naive one... and lets face it....what if we are ALL wrong, athiests, christians, etc alike, what if the end of our lives is something we cannot fathom or even comprehend? it will make all teh bickering and arguing seem pretty dumb

    so before you people start saying crap about "Ownage" this and "PWNed that question" or even the ubiquitous "he`s going to hell anyways so HA" attitudes...question YOURSELF...what if YOU are wrong?

  36. Profile photo of Geogypsy
    Geogypsy Female 18-29
    2546 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:20 pm
    "..most simplest.." ? What business did she have there to begin with language like that?
  37. Profile photo of boredfjord
    boredfjord Male 13-17
    928 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:21 pm
    "our ability to sin and do evil things withour warrant and not worry about final repercussions?"

    The implication behind this--that atheists `sin and do evil things without warrant`"--is seriously offensive. Of the millions of American atheists, all but a trifling fraction more or less conform to cultural norms of morality. This is because some people have far better reasons to do good then the selfish lust for immortality and paradise. Some people do good because of love and compassion. Some people do good to earn the respect of those around them. Some people do good because of reason or moral philosophy. But others, allegedly, only do "good" because they believe that they have been coerced into doing so by a dictatorial God who tortures those who deviate from bewildering Old Testament legislation. If you believe that you would be evil but for God, then your reasons for doing good are purely egoistic. Wouldn`t God see right through a person who did good only

  38. Profile photo of feiku
    feiku Female 18-29
    525 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:24 pm
    "Man, I was expecting a better response.
    All he said was basically anyone could be wrong, and people believe in different things.
    Totally avoided the question. :\"
    There really wasn`t a better answer to that question. She was fishing for an answer that would have him saying he would probably go to hell or something stupid just so she could feel better about herself and her belief.
  39. Profile photo of Groogle
    Groogle Male 30-39
    2172 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:25 pm
    My answer to the question.

    "Girl: What if you`re wrong?"
    "Me: Then, may God forgive me."

    Tadam...

  40. Profile photo of TopperHey
    TopperHey Male 18-29
    1930 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:29 pm
    Oooooo, this was going so well until the last sentence. He could have answered the girl`s question properly. He also seemed to assume that the girl was religious. Maybe that was confirmed earlier, but even I`d ask that question just to get an interesting response.

    ...Oh wait, I think I just got it while writing that. He was making a point about none of us being sure to be right about anything.
    "What if your wrong about being athiest?"
    "Well what if your wrong about a Christian God? What if you`re wrong about Hinduism? Ultimately its a random outcome of birth so we`d rather as well just follow logic than worry about the "what ifs" of choosing one particular culture`s religion."

  41. Profile photo of REBELComx
    REBELComx Male 18-29
    477 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:30 pm
    If i, as an atheist, am wrong...
    If i am wrong then the only way for me to know it is for god to reveal his true self to my disembodied soul after death. If he were to do such a thing, i would take that as evidence of his existence and repent. I would think that that coupled with a lifetime of good deeds, intelligent pursuits to better myself and my world would be enough to earn forgiveness. Sckepticism is not a sin.

    If you, as a Christian, are wrong...
    You think it won`t matter because you`ll be non-existent. But that is exactly the point. How many hours, days, weeks and years of your life did you just waste worshiping a figment of your imagination? How much of that time could have been spent bettering yourself and your world? how many people have you hurt or damaged with your ignorant faith? If you are wrong, than your life was an ignorant waste of time and space, worthless to yourself and the cosmos.

  42. Profile photo of LemonTarte
    LemonTarte Female 18-29
    1441 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:31 pm
    He didn`t give an answer because the whole point of what he said is that there is no way to answer it. What if he`s wrong about there being a Christian god? Then he`s going to hell. What if he`s wrong about a Hindu god? Then he`ll live his life on earth for another cycle. You can only answer the question if it was being referred to a specific religion, which it wasn`t.
  43. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:35 pm
    >Boredfjord

    You`re correct. I know many Atheists, all of whom are very moral. In fact, you can`t tell by their appearance or even behavior that they`re Atheists. It`s incredibly fatuous to believe that Atheism breeds immorality. Many people are smart enough to understand right from wrong and don`t need a God to tell them. In my opinion, knowing that you can sin, and simply apologize to God to erase those sins breeds immorality. There is another vid on Youtube called "Atheist" which has statistics showing that Christians, percentage wise, are more likely to go to jail, get divorced, commit violent acts, etc. I think one stat was the 3/4 prison inmates are Christian, whereas only 1/50 inmates are Atheist. Considering that Atheists make up 10% of the population, that statistic means they are 5 times less likely to go to jail than a Christian.

  44. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:35 pm
    " i would take that as evidence of his existence and repent."
    Doesn`t work like that, the repent has to come before hand. Blessed are those that do not see and still believe.

    " I would think that that coupled with a lifetime of good deeds, intelligent pursuits to better myself and my world would be enough to earn forgiveness."
    Good Deeds is not enough.

    "how many people have you hurt or damaged with your ignorant faith? If you are wrong, than your life was an ignorant waste of time and space, worthless to yourself and the cosmos. "

    But I`ll be dead so I wouldn`t really care

  45. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:37 pm
    "I think one stat was the 3/4 prison inmates are Christian, whereas only 1/50 inmates are Atheist. Considering that Atheists make up 10% of the population, that statistic means they are 5 times less likely to go to jail than a Christian. "

    Correlation does not equal causation. 90% of the people in jail are minorities, does that mean minorities are less moral?

  46. Profile photo of Winter_ICE_0
    Winter_ICE_0 Male 13-17
    976 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:41 pm
    "` I would think that that coupled with a lifetime of good deeds, intelligent pursuits to better myself and my world would be enough to earn forgiveness.`
    Good Deeds is not enough."

    Right! you can live a life of pure good, doing many wonderful things and still go to hell for being an atheist. Or you can be Christian and no matter what you do be guaranteed into heaven because you believe in Jesus. If that`s how it works, I`ll be happy to go to hell with the guy who finds the cure for cancer, while child molesting priests are laughing at us from heaven.

  47. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:42 pm
    " Or you can be Christian and no matter what you do be guaranteed into heaven because you believe in Jesus. "

    thats not how it works either. Great use of false dichotomy though

  48. Profile photo of boredfjord
    boredfjord Male 13-17
    928 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:43 pm
    "Correlation does not equal causation."

    True enough, but that statistic does give us reason enough to deny that there is a causal relationship between atheism and criminal behavior. I wouldn`t argue that atheism makes people better, but I would certainly argue that it doesn`t make them worse. I would guess that what causes atheists to be less likely to go to jail isn`t atheism but affluence and education, because atheists are slightly more likely to be wealthy and slightly more likely to be educated and of course both those things are correlated with lower frequencies of incarceration.

  49. Profile photo of shinsvaka
    shinsvaka Male 18-29
    308 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:43 pm
    i lol`d as a fellow athiest i think richard dawkins does have some good points.. yet he is wrong about a few things..
  50. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:44 pm
    "to deny that there is a causal relationship between atheism and criminal behavior"

    But back to the original point made, does criminal behavior= morality?

  51. Profile photo of Swisskid10
    Swisskid10 Male 13-17
    103 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:46 pm
    I think you`ll find that the argument about religious people not losing anything if they`re wrong is flawed, as proved by this comic http://cectic.com/comics/082.png
  52. Profile photo of Lettermage
    Lettermage Male 18-29
    27 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:47 pm
    However you choose to live your life, it is not a wasted existence. Religious or not. By coming into this world, everyone has made an impact, be it only on their family, a small group of people, or a larger community. The amount of the impact is irrelevant. Just saw a few comments against each side and felt compelled to say.
  53. Profile photo of BABY_BEAR
    BABY_BEAR Female 18-29
    1395 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:47 pm
    His response was kind of lame. If he`s wrong thats his concern, it has no implications for his premise and doesnt undermine the reasons for it; so the question is irrelevant. If everyone was concerned with saving their skin rather than evolving we`d still be in tree`s.
    But, if youre ONLY concerning yourself with `truth` through the traditions of logic then you are always going to limit yourself to some extent. I agree with Robert M persig, that we in the west have placed `truth` above `good` or `quality` to such an extent that it is limiting and damaging us. Our science will not feed us alone. All truth is based on probability, ultimately, and when you consider the probability of how much we dont know, how pathetic the sum of our knowledge is to date, then its foolish to make absolute statements about spiritual matters. We live in ways, use capabilties and experience things that cannot begin to be pinned down with our scientific method yet.

    The only question worth asking is whet

  54. Profile photo of BABY_BEAR
    BABY_BEAR Female 18-29
    1395 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:47 pm
    whether you want to test your beliefs and evolve or live like a coward, that applies to every one of us. *
  55. Profile photo of Lettermage
    Lettermage Male 18-29
    27 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:49 pm
    And /soapbox.

    You are also looking at statistics (presumably) for the USA, where Christianity is in majority. The larger number and high statistic comes from the larger pool of available criterion, as well as folks that claim a religion not followed.

  56. Profile photo of KOLLO
    KOLLO Female 18-29
    396 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:52 pm
    i love this man. he speaks so much sense he should be made president of the world. he had a documentary on recently, `the genius of charles darwin`, that was simply wonderful. they should show it in schools. brilliant man.
  57. Profile photo of boredfjord
    boredfjord Male 13-17
    928 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:53 pm
    "But back to the original point made, does criminal behavior= morality?"

    I don`t see where you made this point originally, but the answer is no; criminal behavior does not equal morality, at least in the United States.

  58. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:54 pm
    "I don`t see where you made this point originally, but the answer is no; criminal behavior does not equal morality, at least in the United States. "

    I worded that wrong. I meant that someone stated atheist were more moral and less likely to cause crime.

    What I`m saying is that just because the crime was violated, does that mean its necessarily immoral

  59. Profile photo of Winter_ICE_0
    Winter_ICE_0 Male 13-17
    976 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:55 pm
    "` Or you can be Christian and no matter what you do be guaranteed into heaven because you believe in Jesus.`
    thats not how it works either. Great use of false dichotomy though"

    I`m sorry, but in the bible blasphemy is the only unforgivable sin. Read Mark 3: 28-29 - it clearly states ALL sins and blasphemies of man will be forgiven unless it is blasphemy of the holy spirit. That means every single sin except for a belief against god.

  60. Profile photo of Rick_S
    Rick_S Male 40-49
    3290 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:55 pm
    1) "Or you can be Christian and no matter what you do be guaranteed into heaven because you believe in Jesus." -- Only by God`s mercy do you get in, not JUST because you believe in Jesus. That`s just a pre-req. Plus, Jews, as God`s chosen people, get to be shown the truth, and given the opportunity to accept.

    2) "What if YOU`RE wrong" is not an answer to "What if you`re wrong?" She may believe the same as he does, and wants to know what if he`s wrong.

  61. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:57 pm
    "I`m sorry, but in the bible blasphemy is the only unforgivable sin. Read Mark 3: 28-29 - it clearly states ALL sins and blasphemies of man will be forgiven unless it is blasphemy of the holy spirit. That means every single sin except for a belief against god."

    Right, but you have to understand how the world "ALL" is used in the Bible. It also says "ALL" have sinned, which is impossible. If everyone has sinned than how could there be an immaculate conception?

    In addition, the important clause is repent. True repent shows a change in behavior. If you keep sinning and at the last second you Regret it, it is not repent

  62. Profile photo of motownc
    motownc Male 30-39
    219 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 2:59 pm
    Richard Dawkins is a God! Erm, I`m not sure where that leaves me. Am I founding a new religion where the god doesn`t believe in himself? That`d be really odd, the Richard`s prayer would have to be something like:

    `Our Richard, who isn`t a deity and is definitely not in heaven (for such a logical construct is disproved by our observation and understanding of our universe), Richard be thy name. Thy oblivion will come, thy will shall be largely ignored by the general populace, on Earth and on other habitable planet where other sentient beings may or may not exist. Give me a Subway voucher and I`ll keep out of trouble, Cheers`.

  63. Profile photo of Rick_S
    Rick_S Male 40-49
    3290 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:03 pm
    PS: as an agnostic/atheist, I am always willing to say that I could very well be wrong. I think EVERYONE should be willing to say they are wrong about what they believe. Yes, they believe it to be true, and they have their faith and the literature to support those believes, but we can`t all be right. The Hindus and the Muslims can`t both be right. The Christians and the Buddhists can`t both be right. They all have literature and proof that they are. So, if only one group is right, that makes MOST OF US wrong, and there no way to guarantee that you`re (I`m) not in that group of wrong people. We all have to be willing to admit that we could be wrong and the other person is right. That doesn`t mean that you should stop believing what you believe, or acting how you act. Just stand up and admit that the possibility exists that you are wrong.
  64. Profile photo of TopperHey
    TopperHey Male 18-29
    1930 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:04 pm
    It`s at times like these when it`s good to sit back and think about what the heck we`re all trying to say. I bet a good 90% of everything that`s said in these debates is agreed. We just lose sight of what points we`re trying to make. The offensive and defensive arguements get mixed up, overlapped and we all start arguing because we forgot what what point we were discussing in the first place.
  65. Profile photo of boredfjord
    boredfjord Male 13-17
    928 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:08 pm
    "I meant that someone stated atheist were more moral and less likely to cause crime."

    I don`t think anyone stated that atheists were more moral, only that they were not LESS moral. At least, that`s what I personally meant to say.

    "What I`m saying is that just because the crime was violated, does that mean its necessarily immoral"

    No, I don`t think so. Smoking marijuana is a crime in my home state of Virginia, for example, and I don`t think it is immoral. The statistic would be more useful if it delineated between petty crimes and those crimes which are more obviously immoral. I don`t want to dwell too long on the argument that atheist`s low rate of incarceration is evidence that they are no less moral than other Americans, because it was not originally my own. I will say, however, that the statistic is at least a good indicator that being an atheist doesn`t cause a person to degenerate into a selfish, sinful, violent, hedonistic maniacs, which seems to be what

  66. Profile photo of msieg007
    msieg007 Male 18-29
    2035 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:11 pm
    What if I`m wrong? I`m in for some disappointment.

    What if you`re wrong? Enjoy eternal damnation.

    Better safe than sorry.

  67. Profile photo of Purey
    Purey Male 18-29
    453 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:13 pm
    well said TopperHey
  68. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:14 pm
    Many religions rank `Believing in other religions` higher on the torment-o-meter than `Didn`t believe in any`, so the atheistic position is justifiable in this regard.

    Besides, if you only believe because you`re hedging your bets, you`re not much of a believer and good luck convincing your deity of choice on the day of judgment... if you happen to be right!

  69. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:18 pm
    >Primetimekin

    Don`t you find it kind of ridiculous that not believing in God is a sin? Many people, like Dawkins explains, are born in a different social-cultural environment and are not even exposed to Christianity. Do you believe that God expects those who he put into a godless environment to believe in Him? That leads into another argument I would have about some of the logical fallacies surrounding religion, such as "God`s plan". More than half of humankind deals with poverty and starvation. Is that part of God`s plan, to make these people suffer and then send them to Hell because a majority of them were never exposed to Christianity?

  70. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:18 pm
    blasphemy deals more with believing and then not believing than with never believing at any point
  71. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:19 pm
    Well, what does God do with those who never believed in the first place?
  72. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:21 pm
    "Well, what does God do with those who never believed in the first place?"

    Not entirely sure, have to ask the guy. My guess would be penitentiary, but thats just me

  73. Profile photo of motownc
    motownc Male 30-39
    219 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:26 pm
    If we are debating morality then the only difference is the origins of the moral code. We all know it is wrong to murder but atheists derive this from an internal morality. It is not enforced by an external doctrine. The only real upshot of this is that atheists don`t need to have their view dictated by man`s interpretation of ancient scripture. If the scripture is the word of God then why do we have Priests, Mullahs, Popes, Ayatollahs and Rabbis telling us what `God` really meant?
  74. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:32 pm
    "if He exists, would resemble anything mentioned in the Bible."

    Well the Bible just gives him a persona, doesnt say he cant be a force of some sort

  75. Profile photo of Kanashto
    Kanashto Male 18-29
    499 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:34 pm
    so? he only gives examples and its all in form of questions.. so ? (im not christian)
  76. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:34 pm
    "What if I`m wrong about believing that there is a God? No consequence. What if your wrong about believing there is NOT a God? Big Consequence."

    You don`t believe in nearly all of the gods, so you`re only very slightly less atheist than I am. You shouldn`t be so comfortable in your false dichotomy.

    Let`s say I`m wrong and you`re right. You managed by chance to pick the right god(s), lucky for you, and your religion is the one they wanted, extra lucky for you. Also, not very likely.

    You probably believe in the Abrahamic god, so I`ll go with that. It leaves two options for me:

    i) Your religion is wrong and your god is a fair overlord who judges people based on their deeds in life. In that case, I`ll be OK.

    ii) Your religion is right and your god is the ultimate twisted bully who demands absolute obedience and worship, imposes silly tests and who has a taste for torture. In that case, they are unworthy of me. To hell with them.

  77. Profile photo of FlameOfUdun
    FlameOfUdun Male 18-29
    1222 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:40 pm
    like douglas adams, except not funny and really REALLY annoying.
  78. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:40 pm
    "You shouldn`t be so comfortable in your false dichotomy."

    "You probably believe in the Abrahamic god, so I`ll go with that. It leaves two options for me:"

  79. Profile photo of razlem
    razlem Male 13-17
    533 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:44 pm
    What a cheap trick, reversing the question to where the original asker can`t respond.

    He missed the point of the question entirely. Idiot.

  80. Profile photo of Winter_ICE_0
    Winter_ICE_0 Male 13-17
    976 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:44 pm
    "Right, but you have to understand how the world "ALL" is used in the Bible. It also says "ALL" have sinned, which is impossible. If everyone has sinned than how could there be an immaculate conception?

    In addition, the important clause is repent. True repent shows a change in behavior. If you keep sinning and at the last second you Regret it, it is not repent"

    In the Christian religion it says all mortal beings have sinned; there are sins like "natural sin" which people are born with in order to make nobody on earth exempt from having sinned. Also, the immaculate conception was just ONE exemption of sin, to say that the Virgin Mary was sin free according to the christian definition of sin is ridiculous.

    As for the repentance, I will go back to my first example of the priest who molested the child. He may do it once, repent, and never do it again, but it does not escape the fact that he has done it.

  81. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:44 pm
    Prime, he`s pointing out that the dichotomy itself is false, but even if it were granted, then the statement would be invalid.
  82. Profile photo of videogamer
    videogamer Male 18-29
    3016 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:46 pm
    "ii) Your religion is right and your god is the ultimate twisted bully who demands absolute obedience and worship, imposes silly tests and who has a taste for torture. In that case, they are unworthy of me. To hell with them."

    There`s just one tiny problem. If you could only barely handle the bullies in grade school, how are you going to escape the wrath of an all-powerful bully in the afterlife?

    CANST THOU DESTROY A GOD??

    Otherwise, I agree with you.

  83. Profile photo of Fantom2993
    Fantom2993 Male 18-29
    342 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:52 pm
    Not much of an answer there dicky boy.
  84. Profile photo of Winter_ICE_0
    Winter_ICE_0 Male 13-17
    976 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:54 pm
    This is to every single person who has posted a religous argument on IAB at some point in time.

  85. Profile photo of bootsy101
    bootsy101 Male 18-29
    1 post
    October 13, 2009 at 3:55 pm
    If your only an christian because you have a fear of being wrong and going to hell then you deserve to go there.

    Razlem - Dont make dawkins the bad guy just because you disagree with him. In all likelyhood he is probably right, otherwise we would all be following the same god.

  86. Profile photo of videogamer
    videogamer Male 18-29
    3016 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 3:56 pm
    Here`s an interesting theory I just came up with. What if no benevolent gods actually exist, and they are all merely projections of the human mind... all created as an antithesis of a singular evil? This would then mean that a life of good would not reward you with paradise after death, but merely the spiritual strength to escape the grasp of said evil and attain true freedom? Frankly, freedom to roam the cosmos sounds more appealing than going to some retirement home in the sky.

    This is probably what Satanists believe; I don`t know, I`m not really acquainted with that ideology.

  87. Profile photo of bored-am-I
    bored-am-I Male 30-39
    785 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:00 pm
    I wish I was born in Denmark in the Viking-age and believed in Thor and Odin. When I died I would probably go to LEGO Land.
  88. Profile photo of eezle
    eezle Male 18-29
    89 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:00 pm
    who the hell keeps posting pro/anti athiest crap on here. I`m sick of these religious debates every week, no one on here is gonna convert anyone to their beliefs. and why do people take these so seriously
  89. Profile photo of Zerro
    Zerro Male 18-29
    628 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:02 pm
    C`mon IAB. There are sites for religious debates. Why do you keep having to post religious related articles that are just going to be flame wars between all groups on the message board.

    I want to see more videos of cute kittehs and how weird asians are pleez.

  90. Profile photo of bored-am-I
    bored-am-I Male 30-39
    785 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:02 pm
    That is sooo 23 of oktober 2006
  91. Profile photo of eezle
    eezle Male 18-29
    89 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:05 pm
    "I want to see more videos of cute kittehs and how weird asians are pleez."

    I agree

  92. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:06 pm
    "There`s just one tiny problem. If you could only barely handle the bullies in grade school, how are you going to escape the wrath of an all-powerful bully in the afterlife?

    CANST THOU DESTROY A GOD??

    Otherwise, I agree with you."

    If Satan is supposed to be the opposite of God, and God ends up being a malevolent maniac, then Hell wouldn`t be so bad for people who want to join Satan...

  93. Profile photo of gnomelover
    gnomelover Female 18-29
    113 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:13 pm
    he didn`t really answer the question though, did he?
  94. Profile photo of a1butcher
    a1butcher Male 40-49
    4809 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:18 pm
    Wow this flame war is going awesomely , I`ve just read all the comments and this is one of the better one I`ve seen in a long while. If not the best yet...... keep it going cause I`m bored!
  95. Profile photo of The_Garuness
    The_Garuness Male 18-29
    931 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:24 pm
    Zerro. hit the nail on the head there. :)
  96. Profile photo of SynthNinja
    SynthNinja Male 18-29
    29 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:24 pm
    Two words for you catbarf: Chuck Norris.
  97. Profile photo of The_Garuness
    The_Garuness Male 18-29
    931 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:25 pm
    and to Winter_ICE_0, youve just won :D
  98. Profile photo of Tisjokar
    Tisjokar Male 18-29
    985 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:26 pm
    tits or gtfo
  99. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:26 pm
    "he didn`t really answer the question though, did he?"

    You can`t. Not without knowing the specifics of the question- what he`d be wrong about. Otherwise the answer is a bland `I`ll experience whatever the consequences are of not believing the true religion`.

  100. Profile photo of Mondo48
    Mondo48 Male 18-29
    138 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:29 pm
    he didnt answer the question....
  101. Profile photo of BahamaBoy
    BahamaBoy Male 13-17
    48 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:35 pm
    i think he is wrong cuz he is drating assified bitchy atheist
  102. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:37 pm
    I think ur wrong cuz ur an assified bitchy whore
    ||
    ||
    ||
    \/
  103. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:39 pm
    I don`t think you CAN answer the question without a specific religion mentioned. A better question would be "What if Christianity is right?", "What if Buddhism is right?" etc.
  104. Profile photo of motownc
    motownc Male 30-39
    219 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:39 pm
    Thanks Bahama, you`ve really added to the debate.
  105. Profile photo of maddices
    maddices Male 18-29
    90 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:45 pm
    ALL HAIL GREAT JUJU AT THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA
  106. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:47 pm
    ". Also, the immaculate conception was just ONE exemption of sin, to say that the Virgin Mary was sin free according to the christian definition of sin is ridiculous."
    If she wasn`t sin free then it wouldn`t be immaculate. More to the point, the Hebrew word for "ALL" was used like MOST.

    " He may do it once, repent, and never do it again, but it does not escape the fact that he has done it."

    What else is he to do? If he regrets it and never does it again, that isn`t enough for forgiveness?

  107. Profile photo of Skooby_Doom
    Skooby_Doom Male 18-29
    74 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:50 pm
    He just ripped on every religion in under 1:30, Richard Dawkins you`re my hero.
  108. Profile photo of Panther71
    Panther71 Male 18-29
    7 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:51 pm
    and so..what was his answer to the question? lols he soo avoided it lmao
  109. Profile photo of redips11
    redips11 Male 13-17
    182 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:53 pm
    i beleive humans created god cuz we had no other explanation for the beginning of us
    i iz athiest
    and he is right, you believe in what you are tought to believe in. period, end of story, blah blah blah
    next!
  110. Profile photo of ConverseUK
    ConverseUK Male 18-29
    1270 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:54 pm
    I was just about to get into bed, and saw this up here...
    I`m an atheist, and have looked extensively into philosophy and ethics. Theists, make yourself known, and lets have a REAL debate?
  111. Profile photo of ConverseUK
    ConverseUK Male 18-29
    1270 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 4:56 pm
    Richard Dawkins - Converts` Corner
  112. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:00 pm
    Its like asking a christian, `what if you`re wrong?`, to which they would reply `I can`t be wrong`, thus avoiding the question.

    The more I think about it, its a logically invalid question. The only answers are "I can`t be wrong" or "nothing happens"

  113. Profile photo of redips11
    redips11 Male 13-17
    182 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:01 pm
    flying spaghetti monster ftw!
  114. Profile photo of scalawag
    scalawag Male 18-29
    160 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:02 pm
    Wait. So what was his great response? All I heard was a condescending rephrasing of the question.
  115. Profile photo of Winter_ICE_0
    Winter_ICE_0 Male 13-17
    976 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:04 pm
    "What else is he to do? If he regrets it and never does it again, that isn`t enough for forgiveness?"

    He doesn`t do it in the first place. Also, my question to you now is if someone doesn`t believe, dies, and goes to heaven... where is God`s forgiveness that was just so easily given to the priest, and why can`t he give it to the atheist? They were both misguided, how can one be given forgiveness and another not? And can you honestly say, in your own views of morality, that disbelief in God is a greater sin than molesting a child?

  116. Profile photo of Moenkie
    Moenkie Male 18-29
    312 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:05 pm
    STUPID DISCUSSION IS STUPID
  117. Profile photo of ConverseUK
    ConverseUK Male 18-29
    1270 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:06 pm
    I think his response was basically a direct criticism in the cheek to ask such a question by someone who themselves would never dare to.

    Dawkins himself has openly said he cannot be sure there is no god; he merely surely believes there isn`t. Now show me a theist willing to challenge their faith and leave a toehold for REAL enlightenment. Would the Archbishop of Canterbury ever be caught saying `well, maybe there isn`t a god?`...?

  118. Profile photo of Paul1582
    Paul1582 Male 13-17
    670 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:08 pm
    I think most atheists believe in the spaghetti monster and the flying pink unicorn.
  119. Profile photo of ConverseUK
    ConverseUK Male 18-29
    1270 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:10 pm
    "I think most atheists believe in the spaghetti monster and the flying pink unicorn."

    Maybe so, but not as a deity...

  120. Profile photo of Paul1582
    Paul1582 Male 13-17
    670 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:11 pm
    "Maybe so, but not as a deity..."

    Reread your statement and then tell me if that would ever make logical sense.

  121. Profile photo of pandaXtreme
    pandaXtreme Female 13-17
    101 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:11 pm
    athieanizm is really anyoing they ripp off all religon by saying their wrong when infact thay r a religon them selfs even tho they might say their not im not saying that ALL athiests r like that but most just act like they r more superior then all of us that believe in a god or a higher power
    --sry for bad spelling
  122. Profile photo of motownc
    motownc Male 30-39
    219 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:12 pm
    You`ve got to consider on a global scale, no matter what your religion, you are outnumbered by people who follow a different path. Most of them believe you are damned for your belief as you may well do them. Either there is one true religion, you got lucky and picked the right one or you are following an ancient and misguided doctrine which is helping to screw up the world. A low estimate would be around 30% of human conflict is based around religious difference. No war has ever been fought in the name of atheism yet atheists account for around 10% of the world population. No atheist ever denied birth control to the poorest nations or refused them protection from HIV. No atheist ever embarked on acts of genocide. If religion is a simple question of what is right and what is wrong then I know where my vote is.

    P.S. I`m going with Hinduism, Hindu gods would easily beat the rest of the pantheon in a cage fight. Multiple arms? Half God, half elephant? Bring on the beardy western gods.

  123. Profile photo of ConverseUK
    ConverseUK Male 18-29
    1270 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:13 pm
    Paul1582, what doesn`t make sense about what I said?
  124. Profile photo of Paul1582
    Paul1582 Male 13-17
    670 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:16 pm
    "Paul1582, what doesn`t make sense about what I said?"

    Meant to be taken as a joke. That statement wouldn`t ever be true. (Although of course you could argue many exceptions.)

  125. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:16 pm
    >ConverseUK

    Most religious people can`t say "Maybe there isn`t a God" because knowing there is a God eases their insecurities about reality. Most people are not willing to even imagine what may become of them if there is no God.

  126. Profile photo of wolfking
    wolfking Male 13-17
    156 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:18 pm
    im an athiesiest and if u say gods real tell me who created god right now dumbass
  127. Profile photo of ConverseUK
    ConverseUK Male 18-29
    1270 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:18 pm
    Sorry, Paul1582, I was kidding to...I was just trying to make the point that those weird monsters could exist, but the can`t be any more of A god than I am...
  128. Profile photo of ConverseUK
    ConverseUK Male 18-29
    1270 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:20 pm
    Exactly, npdarren...don`t you find it almost scary that children are brought into a religion and forced to never question it, and instead be condemned to the lies for fear of eternal torture by a horned, fiery daemon?!
  129. Profile photo of Paul1582
    Paul1582 Male 13-17
    670 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:21 pm
    "thay r a religon them selfs"

    Atheism believes in no god.
    Religion strives for meaning in life.
    I don`t see how nothing would be a meaning in life.

  130. Profile photo of ConverseUK
    ConverseUK Male 18-29
    1270 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:21 pm
    wolfking...good argument...but try and be a tad more coherent if you want any real debate. I love hearing what people think...but acting like that is no way to go about it...
  131. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:23 pm
    >wolfking

    I am Atheist too, but that question is just the same as me asking you "why does anything exist?"

    You can refer to the big bang theory, but then I could ask "what created the big bang? Where did that infinitely dense, hot, and small cluster of energy originate? How was that created?" and so forth. Answering a question like "who created God?" doesn`t help to explain anything. People believe what they do for a reason, and whether you`re Atheist or not you need to be open-minded about all possibilities.

  132. Profile photo of Evil_Eye
    Evil_Eye Male 18-29
    1442 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:29 pm
    If I am wrong, I am good person anyway. So if i go to hell for not worshiping then he doesn`t deserve respect, the big tyrannical twat.
  133. Profile photo of ConverseUK
    ConverseUK Male 18-29
    1270 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:30 pm
    Looks like all the theists have gone to bed, so I`ll probably be doing the same.

    But let me leave you all with this...

    If I created the cutest, perfectest animal from scratch, would I give it the chance to bite me and infect me with a horrible, painful, crippling disease? No.

    If there was a god, would he give me the option to challenge my belief in him. so I could live life by my own doctrine rather than his? No.

  134. Profile photo of Paul1582
    Paul1582 Male 13-17
    670 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:34 pm
    I bet I could be theist. After all, I semi-believe in omniquantism.
  135. Profile photo of hsartoris
    hsartoris Male 13-17
    5 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:34 pm
    @pandaxtreme: The concept of atheism is that there is no higher power, that the world obeys the laws of physics. The whole basis of religion is that there is a higher power to whom you owe your allegiance,and should worship. That it nothing like atheism.

    Somebody please respond to me. I need a debate.

  136. Profile photo of Camira
    Camira Male 18-29
    646 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:36 pm
    Why is it always Christianity Vs. Atheism? Why don`t Athiests pick on Bhudists or Hindus? Why don`t Christians argue their Creationism with Jews etc?
  137. Profile photo of kinjomusashi
    kinjomusashi Male 30-39
    916 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:41 pm
    could somebody please post a link to the kirk cameron vid mentioned in the description?
  138. Profile photo of hsartoris
    hsartoris Male 13-17
    5 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:42 pm
    paul1582: So what you`re saying is that god could simultaneously exist at the same time as not exist, and also in many forms. However, this creates more questions than it solves.

    Buddhists and Hindus aren`t very in-your-face about their religion. Also, Christians share some beliefs with Jews. The belief in atheism violates every one of their principles.

  139. Profile photo of cagel
    cagel Female 18-29
    275 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:42 pm
    I have no interest in trying to "convert" anyone to atheism. I just wish people with alternative beliefs would pay me the same respect. And pay my fellow queers the same respect. And others who disagree with them the same respect. And the american government the same respect.
  140. Profile photo of kinjomusashi
    kinjomusashi Male 30-39
    916 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:43 pm
    could somebody please post a link to the kirk cameron video mentioned in the description?
  141. Profile photo of Camira
    Camira Male 18-29
    646 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:44 pm
    There are 950 Deities that an Atheist does not believe in. There are 949 Deities that a Christian does not believe in. We are not that different.
  142. Profile photo of hsartoris
    hsartoris Male 13-17
    5 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:45 pm
    http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm...
  143. Profile photo of hsartoris
    hsartoris Male 13-17
    5 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:47 pm
    "We are not that different."

    Which we are you, atheists or Christians?

    Also, the christians will promise you that you will go to hell if you do not worship their god. So do the muslims, or most other faiths. The atheists, such as myself, are in disagreement with every religion across the globe.

  144. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:52 pm
    "If I created the cutest, perfectest animal from scratch, would I give it the chance to bite me and infect me with a horrible, painful, crippling disease? No.

    If there was a god, would he give me the option to challenge my belief in him. so I could live life by my own doctrine rather than his? No."
    It doesn`t matter wtf you`d do as a deity.

    The doctrines of religions address WHY their deities do as they do.

    Saying "If I was a God, I wouldn`t...blah blah blah.., so obviously because this happens, there isn`t a god," is pretty silly.

    Too many people try to pigeon-hole an omnipotent, omnicient entity. Why?
    Why must they act as we do?
    Why must they think as we do?
    They`re freaking OMNIPOTENT, on a whole different field we can`t possibly comprehend.
    People like you pigeonhole the idea of god, only because that`s the only way you can understand one.
    *sigh*
    Atheists are just as stupid as religious people, I don`t know why 90% of you all don`t s

  145. Profile photo of Paul1582
    Paul1582 Male 13-17
    670 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:57 pm
    "Atheists are just as stupid as religious people, I don`t know why 90% of you all don`t s"

    Oh no, a cliffhanger!

    "paul1582: So what you`re saying is that god could simultaneously exist at the same time as not exist, and also in many forms. However, this creates more questions than it solves."

    Read more. If you haven`t noticed by now, I`m poking fun at this entire argument by acting like I`m a part of it. And then arguing for both sides.

  146. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 5:59 pm
    Ha, oops.
    I meant to say "...90% of you don`t see that."

    And furthermore, converse, your attitude is not in lines with a good debate.
    In otherwords, your attitude sucks. It`s way biased, it`s condescending, and it`s pretty disrespectful.
    You`re acting like the bill o` reilly of atheists right now (lmao). :)

  147. Profile photo of jimbobsthebe
    jimbobsthebe Male 18-29
    639 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:03 pm
    God isn`t real. I know this because he told me so.
  148. Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:08 pm
    Sorry I`m late. (I`m always late for these things.) Has Baalthazaq made an appearance yet? I`m still waiting for him to answer my question.
  149. Profile photo of ScottSerious
    ScottSerious Male 18-29
    5316 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:13 pm
    did he even answer the question?
  150. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:15 pm
    You all should read the Christian bible. It definitely opened my mind...
  151. Profile photo of Mattyroofles
    Mattyroofles Male 18-29
    85 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:16 pm
    I liked his accent.
  152. Profile photo of yourallwrong
    yourallwrong Male 13-17
    3 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:17 pm
    Overmann, wat exactly did u ask him??? im pretty curious to know what keeps u gunning for this particular guy to answer ur question
  153. Profile photo of Camira
    Camira Male 18-29
    646 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:18 pm
    @ ScottSerious - Yes he did, you just need to read between the lines.
  154. Profile photo of Abacab2112
    Abacab2112 Male 18-29
    433 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:21 pm
    Science has proved that you can save humanity and make money at the same time.

    So can God. ;-)

  155. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:27 pm
    >opie

    I have read the Bible a few times, and each time I read it I believe in the possibility of a God less and less. I just cannot bring myself to believe in something that you can`t approach with a critical attitude. I can`t put my faith into something that contradicts the things I have been taught, just as how a Christian can`t accept an Atheist mindset because of how a Godless existence contradicts their own knowledge.

    I just think it`s best to be open-minded and consider both sides. Ignorance breeds hate and violence, and people who teach that all other beliefs are wrong or evil, are themselves evil.

  156. Profile photo of yourallwrong
    yourallwrong Male 13-17
    3 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:28 pm
    If you`re a Christian, go read the old testament. And then go read the Greek mythology. While you`re doing that, shut the hell up.

    Atheists, sit and ponder about "logic." I`ll get you started; it falls within the realm of our perception. While you`re doing that, shut the hell up.

    We`re limited in what we can do, and that includes drawing up a logical conclusion. Both sides defend themselves

  157. Profile photo of Heureux
    Heureux Male 40-49
    1054 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:29 pm
    Richard Dawkins and his peers always sound like "ex-gays" and homophobes - so sure that their denial of other people`s experiences defines reality for everyone.

    So many prominent "ex-gays" and homophobes have been caught in anonymous sex acts - toe-tapping and cruising in gay bars.

    So just wait

    one of these days, there`ll be pictures of Richard Dawkins getting himself a little anonymous sacrament in a dark little church.

  158. Profile photo of yourallwrong
    yourallwrong Male 13-17
    3 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:31 pm
    ---
    We`re limited in what we can do, and that includes drawing up a logical conclusion. Both sides defend themselves with a terribly flawed system, so to the both groups: shut the hell up do something worthwhile.
  159. Profile photo of Crucible
    Crucible Male 18-29
    1815 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:33 pm
    Does anyone even read these comments? They are just SCREAMING tl;dr
  160. Profile photo of DerekCase300
    DerekCase300 Male 18-29
    29 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:34 pm
    @hsartoris

    Most atheists can`t, by themselves, comprehend advanced physics, can`t calculate the trajectory of a ball circling a drain or a bird`s flight path. They simply take physics for granted. Science is true because this person more intelligent than I am says so, and while there is some basis for the claim laid down in fact after fact, the average atheist still doesn`t understand those facts, doesn`t know the laws of physics or how they apply to things on the macro scale, can`t do the math. So for him, it`s still blind faith is something that he is told to be true but can`t understand.
    There is a similarity.

  161. Profile photo of moogleluvr
    moogleluvr Male 13-17
    75 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:34 pm
    Dawkins came to my school to talk a few weeks ago. Quite an interesting man, to say the least.
  162. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:35 pm
    >yourallwrong

    Yes, all arguments and ideologies are flawed. How events unfold in life often dictate how we think, feel, act, ect., and especially what we believe. Thus, most any ideal is flawed due to its innate bias.

  163. Profile photo of TheBLB
    TheBLB Male 18-29
    237 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:36 pm
    I`ve watched this video a whole bunch of times, and what bothers me is that he never answers the question. It was an honest question.
  164. Profile photo of Stane
    Stane Male 18-29
    316 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:36 pm
    One way to think of things is:
    If you live your life as a Christian and you`re wrong, what have you lost?

  165. Profile photo of yudontn0me
    yudontn0me Male 18-29
    845 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:40 pm
    "ne way to think of things is:
    If you live your life as a Christian and you`re wrong, what have you lost?"

    youve lost free will. god says you have free will but if you dont want to do what i want you to do, then youre going to burn in hell forever. thats not what i consider free will.

  166. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:40 pm
    "I have read the Bible a few times, and each time I read it I believe in the possibility of a God less and less."

    Yeah it kinda solidified my atheism. Especially the old testament... which isn`t as Christian as the new testament, but is much more f*cked up.

  167. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:41 pm
    >Derekcase300

    I don`t know what Atheists you`ve been hanging around, but myself and many Atheists I know are educated enough to understand physical laws and properties, and thus allow us to form an opinion based on intellect rather than blind acceptance. Like I mentioned earlier; I, for one, cannot accept something without first applying critical thinking skills--questioning everything and forming a conclusion based on what I know. While I don`t know everything, I know enough to form what I believe to be an educated guess as to the workings of the universe (because that`s all ideologies are doing, trying to make guesses at the true nature of existence).

  168. Profile photo of RdDan
    RdDan Male 30-39
    759 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:44 pm
    I don`t believe in any gods, but don`t class myself as an atheist either for the reason that every atheist i`ve seen in the media has gone round preaching about how everyone`s deluded if they belive in gods, whereas i keep my lack of belief to myself.

    I do this not out of shame or concern that i may offend someone who believes in a particular god or gods, but rather for the simple reason that i don`t think it`s my place, or anybody else`s place to tell someone how to live their life.

  169. Profile photo of SPrinkZ
    SPrinkZ Male 18-29
    2280 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 6:57 pm
    Derekcase:

    Has anyone ever told you that red herring is not good for your intellectual diet?

    So, you postulate that `Atheists` are ignorant of the mechanics of motion--and thus are blindly following scientists?

    Seriously? I can`t even call that a slippery slope, because it doesn`t even lead to a conclusion that makes sense. You`ve jumped mountains and ended up in a totally different conclusion.

    All I really need to know is that logically a God is impossible to surmise especially from a lack of evidence. I don`t need to know anything else, and atheists don`t ALL follow science. I don`t see any babies coming out with a Richard Dawkin`s.

  170. Profile photo of Maeter
    Maeter Male 18-29
    24 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:07 pm
    I expected an intelligent or short answer, and what I got was an answer that, while entertaining, avoided the question all together.

    It wasn`t a difficult question at all either....

  171. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:14 pm
    "I don`t believe in any gods, but don`t class myself as an atheist either for the reason that every atheist i`ve seen in the media has gone round preaching about how everyone`s deluded if they belive in gods, whereas i keep my lack of belief to myself."

    There are several serious errors in that point of view.

    Whether you`re an atheist or not depends on your religious views, not those of other people.

    You have doubtless seen many atheists in the media who you didn`t even know were atheists. You`re only considering those who stand out for some reason. Your position is as irrational as thinking that all homosexual men are hugely effeminate and/or parade around the street mostly naked, simply because those who are stand out. It`s also like someone saying that they believe in all of Christianity but don`t class themselves as Christian because they see Christians preaching in the media.

    It`s a rather odd position to take.

  172. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:15 pm
    In Christianity there lies freedom from greed, lust, selfishness, hate, this argument and if you turn towards the Lord you`ll amount your life past yourself towards self-actualization through the Lord. It`s about unbinding the chains from this world and living for something much more. Once that is accomplished you can start anew, helping save the people in this world from self-destruction. The principles that Christ taught are easily the best any religion can teach. Here`s an idea, if you can`t have a relationship with Christ then at least look at the great humanitarian ideas behind Christianity.
  173. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:15 pm
    you are all heathens, the only true being is the FSM!


  174. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:17 pm
    "The principles that Christ taught are easily the best any religion can teach."

    I just hope you understand that that is YOUR personal opinion and nothing more.

  175. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:20 pm
    What do you live by Opiebreath?
  176. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:21 pm
    ""I have read the Bible a few times, and each time I read it I believe in the possibility of a God less and less."

    Yeah it kinda solidified my atheism. Especially the old testament... which isn`t as Christian as the new testament, but is much more f*cked up."

    Sort of(*) the same here, although I`d query whether the old testament is Christianity at all. It`s basically Judaism.

    Reading different translations was also an eye-opener, as was discovering how and when the new testament was put together.

    * I saw "sort of the same" because reading the Christian bible made me believe less and less in Christianity rather than in a god. Although I don`t believe in any gods either, that`s not down to the Christian bible.

  177. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:22 pm
    anytime someone asks me about religion i tell them to just look at their own religions blood and war filled roots.
  178. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:22 pm
    >Snazyguy

    From what history teaches me, my beliefs are that Christianity causes self-destruction more than it prevents it. I see no reason to believe any non-religious person is inherently subject to self-destruction, especially when a vast majority of wars and genocide, etc., are religion based.

  179. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:22 pm
    "In Christianity there lies freedom from greed, lust, selfishness, hate,"

    That might be the most monumentally untrue statement I`ve seen on the net this year, if not ever.

  180. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:23 pm
    You can`t dismiss the old testament because ultimately you are dismissing God`s plan. By the way I love the Serengeti monster; I want to believe!
  181. Profile photo of Dfaulted
    Dfaulted Male 13-17
    1920 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:24 pm
    I always use this point, the only reason these people are their religion is because they were born into it, not many people who are born into a religion ever change
  182. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:25 pm
    Snazy, there isn`t enough room here for me to go into it, and I don`t wish to open this debate up to attacking my personal beliefs. However your comment was written quite matter-of-factually, and sounded very objective. I would just like to point out the subjectivity in it.
  183. Profile photo of Dfaulted
    Dfaulted Male 13-17
    1920 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:25 pm
    I for one don`t judge people by what they believe in, just because you meet some people from a religion that are idiots (or something else) doesn`t mean every single one of the people who believe that are idiots.
  184. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:26 pm
    That`s what they are, those wars are based on religion. I`m not religious at all, no, but I do have a relationship with God/Jesus. It`s that relationship those people are lacking.
  185. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:27 pm
    way to go Dfaulted, you figured out religion.

    and what the hell is a Serengeti monster?

  186. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:29 pm
    "It`s that relationship those people are lacking."

    Even though many terrorists believe killing themselves for their religion brings them closer to God/Allah.

  187. Profile photo of ajd121
    ajd121 Male 18-29
    625 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:30 pm
    "Why do people even discuss this? Can`t you just leave people to believe what they believe. If a religious person is converted by that guys book, they would have probably ended up in hell anyway."

    Ask that to the thousands of people who are killed each year because of religion, to the who women in countries that have no rights because of religion, to the growing number of Africans getting AIDS because condoms are deemed wrong because of religion, and to all the other ills that religion causes.

  188. Profile photo of briirox
    briirox Female 18-29
    179 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:31 pm
    Spaghetti Monster..Raberboom.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spag...

  189. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:32 pm
    which is different from the Serengeti monster im pretty sure....
  190. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:33 pm
    Opie, then you fail to see the broad scope of things.
  191. Profile photo of trashcan7
    trashcan7 Male 13-17
    564 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:33 pm
    What the freak? I agree with Maeter. He didn`t even make a single point in that lengthy answer. He just completely avoided the point.
  192. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:35 pm
    or snazyguy is too to blinded to see the scope of things.
  193. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:36 pm
    Npdarren you don`t kill people to get closer to God. Quite obvious I know but why did you signify it?
  194. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:37 pm
    And you, Raberboom, can`t see what you write.
  195. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:37 pm
    i think i finally know why IAB posts religious content, look at how many new posters we get!
  196. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:39 pm
    "With millions, if not thousands, of devout worshippers, the Church of the FSM is widely considered a legitimate religion, even by its opponents – mostly fundamentalist Christians, who have accepted that our God has larger balls than theirs."

    --Bobby Henderson

  197. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:39 pm
    why should i care how i spell on the internet? its not like im here to impress everyone with my exceptionally unique and gifted euphemisms.
  198. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:40 pm
    *finally gets home to his log cabin, after a hard day`s lumberjacking in the snowy woods. Checks to see that the fire he planted earlier is still burning in the stove.*

    Ah yes. All good. All good. My job here is done.

    And so to bed.

  199. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:40 pm
    actually this is the best religion

    Dudeism

  200. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:43 pm
    In Anatomy/Phisiology today we were discussing mitosis of a cell and how everything works so so. What`s in the DNA that convinces the cell to split?
    Does any scientist know, well no.

    Learn about your body and you learn that you do fly with pixie dust.

  201. Profile photo of Thesphinx
    Thesphinx Male 18-29
    353 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:46 pm
    Yup. He avoided the question. What a douche. And of course, the biased crowd cheered for no apparent reason.

    If you ask me, the question "what if you`re wrong" is an easy one to answer. You always have to make an exception for things in life. Even in the things you`re certain of, such as politics, sciences, or lifestyle, you have to stay moderate and not go to any extremes. If you live a life going to church every sunday in prayer, and it turns out you`re wrong when you die, no big deal. If you kill millions of people because you think their religion is wrong, then if YOU are wrong, well, you were a mass murderer.

    Moderation is the key to everything.

  202. Profile photo of yofuzzy
    yofuzzy Male 13-17
    310 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:46 pm
    "In Christianity there lies freedom from greed, lust, selfishness, hate, this argument ...." --snazyguy

    id like to point out that all organisms have lust. without it we wouldnt reproduce and wed go extinct. Also, "greed" and "selfishness" are what drives Americas, and the free worlds, economy. everyone is looking to do whatever they can to make themselves better off. people act in their own self interest. you can call this bad and greedy, but the industrys people are most satisfied with are all for-profit. the not-for-profit industries all suck and noone likes them or gets quality goods from them.
    so id rather keep my lust and greed and selfishness

  203. Profile photo of Dextrine
    Dextrine Male 18-29
    483 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:47 pm
    "What`s in the DNA that convinces the cell to split?
    Does any scientist know, well no."

    ....

  204. Profile photo of yofuzzy
    yofuzzy Male 13-17
    310 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:50 pm
    and my apologies snazyguy, i feel bad your first time posting you get attacked by everyone on the forum =P
  205. Profile photo of MauserTM
    MauserTM Male 18-29
    1222 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:53 pm
    "
    *finally gets home to his log cabin, after a hard day`s lumberjacking in the snowy woods. Checks to see that the fire he planted earlier is still burning in the stove.*

    Ah yes. All good. All good. My job here is done.

    And so to bed. "

    Got me thinking there, nice

  206. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:54 pm
    "What`s in the DNA that convinces the cell to split?
    Does any scientist know, well no."

    Well, it`s just by coincidence, but in my AP Biology class we are reviewing DNA and RNA. And yes, scientists do know. The cell splits because an innate feature with any living organism is the need to reproduce. The splitting of cells is a means of not only perpetuating life, but also healing the organism and replacing dead cells. The ability of cells to split is an emergent property that arises from the various amino/peptide polymers that form such complex structures that they enable certain things, like reproducing.

  207. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:58 pm
    Industry can be managed healthily. Meaning a corporation truelly looks for their consumers best interest while staying afloat. You don`t need greed to run an economy you just present something people might need to function everyday. Like toothbrushes, I couldn`t live without my toothbrush. Besides, God want`s us be be happy though we need to recognize what we already own and be thankful, you don`t need to be Christian to do any of this.

    When I said lust, I really meant to censor myself from saying, gutter slut hopping frenzies. In my opinion, I don`t think it`s wrong to look at a girl and think beautiful but it`s when you strip her down in you minds eye where lust start to take affect.

  208. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 7:59 pm
    cause of course you know exactly what god wants since you see and talk to him all the time.

    oh wait...

  209. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:01 pm
    Lust is something that is almost natural for humans, or all animals for that matter. The reason sex feels good is because it is a measure the body imparts to make us want to reproduce. But you`re correct if you`re saying lust can lead to problems, because it does.
  210. Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:05 pm
    yourallwrong, I`ll link to it. Browse down to my last post addressed to Baalthazaq and you`ll see the question and its context.

    A lot of people are asking whether Dawkins even answered the question. My interpretation is the girl wasn`t seeking an answer so much as she was aiming for a `Gotcha!` line against Dawkins. Richard in turn saw it for what it was and turned the tables, showing how anyone could be wrong about any of the various religions man has ever come up with and that the `Gotcha!` line applies equally to anyone.

    I, too, would take the question offensively, because the girl seems to think Dawkins hasn`t fully considered the implications of his argument. Essentially the girl has the arrogance to assume she thought of something so basic and Richard hasn`t.

  211. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:06 pm
    Yup. He avoided the question. What a douche. And of course, the biased crowd cheered for no apparent reason.

    Funny that you mention the "biased crowd" there. See the "Book TV" icon in the bottom right corner of the vid? It was a reading at a University Campus book club for his "The God Delusion" book (I`ve watched the whole two hours of it, this is a small excerpt from the Q&A session following the abridged reading by Prof Dawkins).

    Thing is, a local Fundamentalist Christian "College" (Liberty University) got wind that Dawkins was appearing and spammed/hijacked the whole Q&A session afterward with Creationist/Fundie horsewank. A previous questioner in this same Q&A session asked Dawkins how he could prove that the dinosaur fossils in his College were not 2000 years old and had drowned in Noah`s Flood. Dawkins laid a similar smackdown on him. Same lecture.

    Now, you were saying something about a biased crowd?

  212. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:08 pm
    You sound like my textbook npdarren. Where on the DNA tells a zygote to replicate muscle or bone. This is a mystery to scientists but with the course the human genome is heading that answer might be solved. Just think, doctors could tell your body to heal faster if such a discovery were made. But I don`t like to extrapolate on trends, too risky. Any AP Statistic people here?

    "Extrapolate at your own risk." --Mr. G

  213. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:08 pm
    Snazy, if the broad scope of things is that your opinion of Christianity is the objectively correct one... then yeah, I suppose I have failed in that sense.
  214. Profile photo of yofuzzy
    yofuzzy Male 13-17
    310 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:09 pm
    No, industry cant be managed healthily. thats what communism tried to do. think about it this way, if toothbrushes were declared free by the US gov, do you think colgate would continue to make them and give them away? to ensure the dental hygene of the country?
    or would they move into a different market where they could make money? without the posibility and incentive of huge profits, there is no reason to innovate, improve, or change.
    noones going to just present you with a tooth brush unless they believe they are getting something out of it too.

    what makes a girl beautiful to you? if you just saw a girl walking down the street in a dirty ripped up sweatshirt youd have a totally different reaction than if she was wearing short shorts and a tank top, had her hair and makeup done, etc.

    again we could all just sit around and look at eachother saying how pretty we look, and the human race would die out, or we could do what were biologically programmed to do and make some babi

  215. Profile photo of Norts
    Norts Male 18-29
    486 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:10 pm
    I say we all just give each other a big old bear hug. ;-)
  216. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:12 pm
    yay hugs for all!
  217. Profile photo of yofuzzy
    yofuzzy Male 13-17
    310 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:12 pm
    the only reason lust leads to problems (other than std`s, use a condom kids, is that we have set up rules in society to make it so. Its taboo to sleep with whoever you want in society because of religion. with that removed so is most of the negative impacts of a sex drive
  218. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:14 pm
    I do talk to God. Anyways, I`d like to point out that oxytocin, a pleasure stimulating hormone, is in much more abundance between two very intimate lovers than when masturbating or even answering a booty call.

    Yes we are built to perpetuate the human race but when you look deep inside you find that Love is key.

    And those chemical messenger, what do you think: magic?

  219. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:14 pm
    "Where on the DNA tells a zygote to replicate muscle or bone."

    It`s not a matter of "where", like I said; cell splitting is an emergent property, and if you have forgotten what that means-it means that capabilities of an organism only exist when the parts that make up the whole are assembled correctly. I like the bicycle analogy: if you put all the parts that consist a bicycle (e.g two wheels, tires, a chain, some gears, etc.) into a box, do you then have a bicycle? No, all you have are the parts of the bicycle, but when assembled correctly you have a functioning system.

  220. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:16 pm
    how did we get into discussing biology and genetics?
  221. Profile photo of Kevlarcandy
    Kevlarcandy Male 18-29
    11 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:18 pm
    Right, so....there are Jews at the bottom of the sea?

    M`kay. ^_^

  222. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:18 pm
    Actually Opie your not wrong, I`m just right. :D Also, I`d like to believe that my view of Christianity is much more open than most brim-stone and fire Christian though that is a part of it too. I tend to linger towards moderate pursuits and ideas.

    So... Yay, for hugs.

  223. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:20 pm
    "much more abundance between two very intimate lovers than when masturbating or even answering a booty call."

    That can be attributed to psychology. I do not know if you have taken psychology, but one of the most fundamental principles of psych. is that "everything biological is simultaneously psychological", which leads me to my conclusion that the reasons more of the chemical release for a loved one might be because of familiarity and/or other psychological responses. Not because love is some intrinsic, spiritualistic feature that doesn`t manifest itself in the human conscience.

  224. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:21 pm
    "Actually Opie your not wrong, I`m just right."

    and you say your not like most christians?

  225. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:21 pm
    "Actually Opie your not wrong, I`m just right. :D"

    I give up.

  226. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:24 pm
    You sound like my textbook npdarren. Where on the DNA tells a zygote to replicate muscle or bone. This is a mystery to scientists... etc etc etc.

    Snazyguy, Dude, we`re working on it. And before you jump on the "THEREFORE GOD WINS!" pish, do yourself a favour, and don`t. Learn some humilty, as Religion espouses. We scientists start on a platform of "we don`t know yet, but we`re going to try our damnedest to find out". Please tell me what is wrong with that, for I don`t see it.

    And in response to your (frankly weird) earlier statement of "I`m not religious at all, no, but I do have a relationship with God/Jesus."...

    What can I say? Call me out on this, but it`s like saying "I`m not Gay, but I do have a relationship with my boyfriend Timothy".

    If having a relationship with Jesus ain`t being religious, then taking it up the arse from Tim every night ain`t being gay. I say different.

    Just my take on it.

  227. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:28 pm
    What exactly instigates such a process, it`s probably in the nucleolus somewhere but what if I`m wrong. :D That the very fabric of the cell is governed by the unexplainable.
  228. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:33 pm
    That the very fabric of the cell is governed by the unexplainable.

    Mate. I`m off to work now, but take this to bed with you, because this is very, VERY important. Not trying to be condescending, not trying to score points. Seriously man, you need to drop words like "unexplainable" and replace that with "not explained yet". I promise, you`ll have a more fulfilled and fulfilling life.

  229. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:33 pm
    I don`t mean to sound like a textbook, but what causes cells to behave as they do IS explainable. Please tell me if what I learned in Bio last week is wrong, but much of what cells do is a result of polymer structures coiling and folding onto each other due to hydrogen bonds between the various bases of the nucleic acids. If you want me to elaborate even more, I gladly will.
  230. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:34 pm
    "where is God`s forgiveness that was just so easily given to the priest, and why can`t he give it to the atheist? "

    Because an atheist went their whole life not trying to repent. If lets say at the last few moments of life, they regret being an atheist, then that would be actual repent. But repenting after you see God wouldn`t quite work the same

  231. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:36 pm
    "What can I say? Call me out on this, but it`s like saying "I`m not Gay, but I do have a relationship with my boyfriend Timothy". "

    By the way, that is a 100% factual statement.

    Davy is gay and is having a relationship with Timothy, we call him Tim.

  232. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:37 pm
    >Primetimekin

    Are you implying that because the priest repented, he`s guaranteed access into heaven? Does that mean that it`s okay to commit sins in life as long as you repent later?

  233. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:38 pm
    "Please tell me if what I learned in Bio last week is wrong,"

    Everything you learn in bio is a lie. Same with environmental science, psychology, etc.

    If its not Physics or Chemistry it doesn`t matter.

    Now Biochemistry just makes me scream....why combine something so terrible with something so amazing.

    P.S. drat YOU PUNNET SQUARE!

  234. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:39 pm
    "Are you implying that because the priest repented, he`s guaranteed access into heaven? Does that mean that it`s okay to commit sins in life as long as you repent later?"

    No that was an answer to a question someone asked me about 5 pages ago.

    What I`m saying is that sin is not and never is ok, and nothing guarantees you access to heaven. But what I`m saying is that repenting implies a change in behavior. So if a sin is committed and you do repent later (meaning doing everything to fix the problem and working with those that were harmed or something to that extent) that goes a long way.

  235. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:40 pm
    Group think is at work here. It`s okay this was a lot of fun. My first flame war. :DDD Unfortunately, my opinions only matter to myself here on IAB. The known/unknown honestly is fun to discuss and argue over. But sleep pounds on the noggin and sleep looks really good right now. If, "What if your wrong?" is still a viable question then think about it.
  236. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:40 pm
    Also, I `d like to say, just as science hasn`t explained the exact biochemistry of molecular mitosis by splitting of DNA strands, so has Primetimekin not yet explained to his parents that he is in fact gay.

    Neither of these things are to be condemned. They just have to take some time to figure themselves out.

  237. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:41 pm
    well, I was just working off of my Godfather stereotypes in which they`d kill, then repent, then kill some more...
  238. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:41 pm
    "Everything you learn in bio is a lie. Same with environmental science, psychology, etc."

    Citation needed.

  239. Profile photo of thelonious
    thelonious Male 40-49
    3286 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:44 pm
    Man, he got pissy
  240. Profile photo of boredfjord
    boredfjord Male 13-17
    928 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:52 pm
    "Everything you learn in bio is a lie. Same with environmental science, psychology, etc."

    ...apparently it`s a lie that cells divide. And the functions of the hippocampus, amygdala, and the limbic system? LIES! This is the drating stupidest thing I`ve ever seen someone say on IAB, bar none. NONE.

  241. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:54 pm
    "What I`m saying is that sin is not and never is ok, and nothing guarantees you access to heaven. But what I`m saying is that repenting implies a change in behavior. So if a sin is committed and you do repent later (meaning doing everything to fix the problem and working with those that were harmed or something to that extent) that goes a long way."

    so yes npdarren, according to him as long as you repent later it will help cover up what ever you did.

  242. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:56 pm
    "...apparently it`s a lie that cells divide. And the functions of the hippocampus, amygdala, and the limbic system? LIES! This is the drating stupidest thing I`ve ever seen someone say on IAB, bar none. NONE."

    Yes it is hippie liberal art major.

  243. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:57 pm
    "Everything you learn in bio is a lie. Same with environmental science, psychology, etc."

    ...apparently it`s a lie that cells divide. And the functions of the hippocampus, amygdala, and the limbic system? LIES! This is the drating stupidest thing I`ve ever seen someone say on IAB, bar none. NONE.

    i would have to agree Mr.boredfjord. he sounds as bad as baptists, saying all scientists are lying to us for their own secret agenda.

  244. Profile photo of dragonshadoz
    dragonshadoz Female 18-29
    4031 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:59 pm
    Exactly. What if you`re wrong?
    Since no one side can prove the other wrong, it`s just plain silly to insist that you`re right.
  245. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 8:59 pm
    "i would have to agree Mr.boredfjord. he sounds as bad as baptists, saying all scientists are lying to us for their own secret agenda."

    Keyword, science.

    Since when is psychology a science? Thats glorified philosophy

  246. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:01 pm
    Well what would you term psychology since apparently you haven`t taken it. Magical voodoo poo that god makes happen in your head?
  247. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:03 pm
    "Well what would you term psychology since apparently you haven`t taken it. Magical voodoo poo that god makes happen in your head?"

    I took AP Psych and got a 5. I can tell you its the biggest BS ever. "Freud hypothesized that the experiences in your child hood affect your personality later on in life" NO dratING poo

  248. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:06 pm
    so your taking one thing you learned and saying since it isnt true, everything we know today, EVERYTHING, about psychology is false... because of course a teen lad like yourself is WAY more knowledgeable then all the gained knowledge of human psyche put together over the years.
  249. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:07 pm
    "so your taking one thing you learned and saying since it isnt true, everything we know today, EVERYTHING, about psychology is false... because of course a teen lad like yourself is WAY more knowledgeable then all the gained knowledge of human psyche put together over the years."

    Who gang banged on your bacon, no one here could take a joke.

    What I`m saying is that respectable scientist laugh at those liberal art "sciences".

  250. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:09 pm
    Psychology attempts to use the scientific method on very obvious trends in society and life in general. I don`t think it`s right to trash my favorite class dude. I`m sorry I decided this post might hold more importance than sleep. lol
  251. Profile photo of thelonious
    thelonious Male 40-49
    3286 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:11 pm
    Somehow, I think it`s not either of these two extremes. Yet people keep pointing to them like they sound sane.

    1) The universe was created by a being that sits around in non-time-space and decided he needed company but also likes to punish people for not doing exactly what he told them, tah-dah

    2) The universe just popped into existence from nothing and kept growing and here we are, tah-dah

    Call it an irrational gut feeling, if you really need to quantify that way, but I think people that adhere to either of these "strict" doctrines are a bit crazy/obsessed.

  252. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:12 pm
    sorry but i didn`t see anything resembling a joke in there mr.comedian.

    and you didnt answer anything or show how all of bio and psychology is a lie, im waiting for something of substance here mr nobel prize in all sciences.

  253. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:13 pm
    That science is a spy!
  254. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:13 pm
    Social sciences are for those who aren`t good enough for real science.

    Bio is for those who aren`t good enough for Physics or Chemistry, but are better than psychology.

  255. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:14 pm
    see thelonious you have the right idea, we all as a race just need to admit we dont have the what started everything, and just live on with the knowledge we can actually prove rather than far fetched ideas.
  256. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:15 pm
    "Social sciences are for those who aren`t good enough for real science.

    Bio is for those who aren`t good enough for Physics or Chemistry, but are better than psychology."

    Right because with your extensive knowledge in all these categories you can dictate which sciences are more important than others?

  257. Profile photo of LBlues
    LBlues Male 18-29
    713 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:16 pm
    "Social sciences are for those who aren`t good enough for real science.

    Bio is for those who aren`t good enough for Physics or Chemistry, but are better than psychology."

    I hope this a joke, and if so it`s lame

  258. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:16 pm
    "Right because with your extensive knowledge in all these categories you can dictate which sciences are more important than others?"

    Yes

  259. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:16 pm
    Time for a comic!
  260. Profile photo of evanking
    evanking Male 18-29
    689 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:17 pm
    wait, he never directly answered her question
  261. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:18 pm
    "Bio is for those who aren`t good enough for Physics or Chemistry, but are better than psychology."

    Ok anyone can do psychology. My friend took the AP test without studying or without taking the class and passed it. If its liberal arts related, its easy to do.

  262. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:18 pm
    im a he, and yeah he doesnt ever answer the questions.
  263. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:19 pm
    Psychology may not involve mathematics or chemistry, but the connections that can be drawn from learning the mannerisms of humans and the mind applies to just about every field of science. I scored a 5 on my test too (because its one of the easiest AP courses), but unlike you, I found it very interesting. And if you read the Barron`s study guide, you`d know that much of Freud said is disputed among psychologists as being irrelevant.
  264. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:21 pm
    "And if you read the Barron`s study guide, you`d know that much of Freud said is disputed among psychologists as being irrelevant. "

    A recent Times article said that most of Freud`s theories are being proven by CAT scans Pet Scans etc.

    No disrespect to Barrons though, great study guide. I had the princeton one, never used it

  265. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:22 pm
    http://xkcd.com/435/
  266. Profile photo of bunny_knight
    bunny_knight Male 18-29
    353 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:23 pm
    well he didn`t really answer the question... but that`s ok
  267. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:23 pm
    Snazyguy....that is the best comic I have ever seen in my life.
  268. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:23 pm
    Math wins. You know it`s the universal language of genius!
  269. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:24 pm
    I`m currently taking 6 AP courses (I know it`s insane), and I took 4 last year in 11th grade, and I can tell you that the liberal sciences (Psych, Art History, etc) are very important to developing an accurate opinion of society. If you restrict yourself to mere math and equations, then you may as well forget about living in the real world where the ways in which people act, think, and feel are just as important as the empirical facts.
  270. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:25 pm
    i think Freud was right.... about his own mother that is.
  271. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:26 pm
    last year i had 1 science class and no math classes. I was being a little rebel against the real courses....all I could say is drat liberal arts. drat it up the ass. I miss the math and science and poo
  272. Profile photo of primetimekin
    primetimekin Male 18-29
    7935 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:26 pm
    "i think Freud was right.... about his own mother that is."

    www.instantrimshot.com

  273. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:27 pm
    "A recent Times article said that most of Freud`s theories are being proven by CAT scans Pet Scans etc."

    I didn`t say Freud`s theories were false, just that they are generally deemed as irrelevant to psychology and complicate fields like developmental psychology.

  274. Profile photo of Snazyguy
    Snazyguy Male 18-29
    46 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:28 pm
    From experience taking all of those AP classes isn`t so difficult because what you learn transcends anything else going on in highschool.
  275. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:30 pm
    snazyguy,
    exactly.
  276. Profile photo of Pilanus
    Pilanus Male 18-29
    675 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:46 pm
    /me sits in the bleachers of Buddhism and noms on some popcorn.
  277. Profile photo of Uncle_T
    Uncle_T Male 13-17
    485 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:46 pm
    lol @ prime you would link that
  278. Profile photo of Ani187
    Ani187 Female 30-39
    4448 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:50 pm
    Oh snap! And that, my dears, is why I`m agnostic.
  279. Profile photo of Pilanus
    Pilanus Male 18-29
    675 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:52 pm
    Oh, and prime "all I could say is drat liberal arts. drat it up the ass"...

    Everything has its place in the world, so you can take your hierarchy of value in the sciences and various fields of study, and blow it out your ass.

  280. Profile photo of kezef
    kezef Male 18-29
    14 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:54 pm
    true, he didn`t really answer the question directly but at least his response was better than "oh we weren`t meant to know, it`s god`s will and we shouldn`t question him."
  281. Profile photo of ImTakingOver
    ImTakingOver Male 18-29
    388 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 9:57 pm
    he is explaining why its a silly question to ask
  282. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 10:14 pm
    Ok, 223 posts is a little late even for me to get into this.

    However:
    1) What exactly of Freud is proven through a CAT scan?
    2) I`m a Freud fan, and even I don`t think this is plausible. "Most of his theories" don`t lend themselves to being defined by cat scans.

    Also, as I`ve said before, this is Pascal`s Wager. Pascal`s wager is bad argumentation. (Having said that it is mathematically sound, just not in context).

    However: This response isn`t all that fair. Assuming all interpretations vary in some small way shape or form, you could arguably cover 4.5 Billion out of 7 billion interpretations of religion simply by being a Monotheistic follower of any of the Abrahamic religions.

    Worshiping "the Juju" has you covered for what? 100?

    Also, why is this Christianity vs Atheism?
    I have given smarter answers, to dumber questions. Does that mean religion is winning? Or does that only work the other way round?

  283. Profile photo of shunpo_31
    shunpo_31 Male 18-29
    1381 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 10:16 pm
    so we all believe what we were brought up to believe? does he realize there are christians in india too?

    he uses the logic of a child.

  284. Profile photo of last_ninja
    last_ninja Male 18-29
    610 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 10:16 pm
    i like this. he answered a straightforward question with a straightforward answer. it`s so annoying when atheists and Christians get all butthurt that the other side disagrees
  285. Profile photo of powpowking
    powpowking Male 13-17
    551 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 10:18 pm
    the internet is a dangerous place...
  286. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 10:22 pm
    Incidentally, the better answer (better because it doesn`t just expand the Pascal`s Wager table, but actually defeats it), is that belief is not a choice.

    I suspect the reason Dawkins might not bring that up is he often (contradictorily) claims it is a choice.

    For example, stop believing in your pants, just for 20 minutes. Can you actually do it? I find it impossible. Similarly, with temporarily believing that my cat has an extra head.

    If he`s wrong it doesn`t matter. He didn`t choose not to believe, and you can`t make him believe it just because it would be good for him.

    At best he could pretend to believe, at which point I`m fairly sure God would figure it out.

    This is different however, from choosing to be open minded, or choosing to listen, and so on. Arrogance, and often ignorance, is a choice.

  287. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 10:46 pm
    Typical Atheist answer to a tough question.. Don`t answer the question, Divert with other multiple questions that would take too long to respond.

    This was no better than an elementary school child`s attempt at avoidance. It`s like trying to nail jello to a wall.

  288. Profile photo of Smashking
    Smashking Male 18-29
    773 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 10:57 pm
    "Typical Atheist answer to a tough question.."

    It`s not exactly an easy thing for even a devout follower to say what would surely happen to them if what they believed wholeheartedly was right was actually wrong. The lack of a retort on his answer says most people probably would have said the same thing, though thats probably pushing it I admit. Regardless, extending the question to apply to not just him looked so much better than "Next question please."

  289. Profile photo of radmikey
    radmikey Male 18-29
    61 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 10:59 pm
    OBVIOUSLY there are no Christians in India or Denmark or in Central Africa.

    And technically, by the same logic of regional beliefs and the statement of "You happened to be brought up in America...", then wouldn`t all Americans be Christians?

    His answer wasn`t the least bit satisfying to me, it was too generalized, and I got the feeling that he was evading the question.

  290. Profile photo of MrAnonymous
    MrAnonymous Male 18-29
    216 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 11:02 pm
    OH wow! I know that guy. I actually read The God Delusion.
  291. Profile photo of TKD_Master
    TKD_Master Male 18-29
    4794 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 11:14 pm
    religion is dumb and it`s a waste of time/life. only a fool would believe it. seriously, read the bible, if you have any sort of intelligence whatsoever you will see just how absurb and contradictory it all is. plus, christians worship an evil god. peace out.
  292. Profile photo of LTimeLurker
    LTimeLurker Female 18-29
    723 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 11:19 pm
    Thank you IAB!

    I am refreshed to hear all of these responses, pointing out the blatancy of his avoidance. His response to "Why don`t you believe in God" is no better than most religious responses to "Why do you believe in God". Honestly, there is no good "logical" or "philosophical" answer for either...

  293. Profile photo of npdarren
    npdarren Male 18-29
    602 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 11:29 pm
    "belief is not a choice"

    That`s correct, but at the same time incorrect. You cannot force yourself to believe something just compulsively, that is true. But you can choose the people you associate with, and what ideas you expose yourself to--these are typically the things that shape our beliefs, and so in that way we do have a little say in what we believe. Although I`m sure you were implying the former, and in which case you are correct.

  294. Profile photo of Lou-Saydus
    Lou-Saydus Male 13-17
    216 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 11:30 pm
    In an interview he did a while back he was asked the same question, he handled it much better then imo. He said that if he is wrong, and all the science behind him turns out to all just be a bunch of bs, he said that he would hope that god would be forgiving enough to accept that he was skeptical and not a believer given all the evidence against him. Given that everyone makes god out to be this all understanding and forgiving god.
  295. Profile photo of salem33466
    salem33466 Male 18-29
    153 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 11:35 pm
    he didn`t even answer it...that was stupid.
  296. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 11:36 pm
    If that was his better answer I think he has since improved.

    As I`ve said before, hiding behind science, or the American flag, or religion, or whatever, and hijacking it for your own needs makes you not just "incorrect", or "mistaken", or "badly worded" as he is now.

    It makes you scum. The worst scum it is possible to be. It is a disgusting aftereffect of every despicable core quality it is possible for a human being to have.

  297. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 13, 2009 at 11:52 pm
    Just expanding on my first point, lets assume there are just two religions + atheism, for simplicity:

    Christianity, Taoism, Atheism.

    Pascal`s Wager Remains:
    Christian is correct: Heaven. (Infinite good)
    Atheist is correct: Nothing. (Neutral)
    Christian is incorrect: Nothing.
    Atheist is incorrect: Hell. (Infinite bad)


    Now what Dawkins says here is what about additional beliefs.

    Atheist/Christian is wrong about Taoism:
    Nothing, they have no afterlife.

    Lets keep going:
    Judaism doesn`t have a Hell.
    Vadic Hinduism has no Hell.
    Some hells are temporary.
    Some (more than not) religions are act based, not faith based.
    Athena apparently doesn`t give a poo if you believe in her, so long as you don`t challenge her to a weaving competition. (Lookup Arachne)

    So on and so forth. Belief is a very Christian thing, though the philosophy has leaked into many other cultures, it is rarely the cornerstone of religion.

  298. Profile photo of JannatheGrea
    JannatheGrea Female 18-29
    149 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 12:06 am
    Hahahahaahahahhahasflkdjslf;safas "most simpleist". Dawkins is awesome.
  299. Profile photo of TheBLB
    TheBLB Male 18-29
    237 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 12:06 am
    "religion is dumb and it`s a waste of time/life. only a fool would believe it. seriously, read the bible, if you have any sort of intelligence whatsoever you will see just how absurb and contradictory it all is. plus, christians worship an evil god. peace out."

    They see me trollin`, they hatin`...

  300. Profile photo of Nidonemo
    Nidonemo Male 18-29
    9308 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 12:07 am
    ...if it`s a meeting of Atheists why did she go?

    I don`t attend meetings that have the opposite of what I enjoy, that`s just a waste of my time. I`d rather attend a meeting of people that share my interests where I have the opportunity to make friends rather than sit through someone speaking on a subject I don`t even agree with.

  301. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 12:07 am
    \/ Interesting thought Baalthazaq, but it doesn`t change it from being a loaded question that can`t be answered. If you think it can, then, what should his answer have been?
  302. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 12:11 am
    Problem is Baalthazaq, That I believe that most people that call themselves atheists are in fact just disgruntled with God. Hating God is not being an atheist.

    A true atheist wouldn`t care enough to hate God or religion. These people that hate God or religion are actually angry agnostics, But they won`t admit it.

  303. Profile photo of aznclueless
    aznclueless Male 18-29
    329 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 12:23 am
    "A true atheist wouldn`t care enough to hate God or religion."

    I don`t even know what to say to that... lol.

  304. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 12:35 am
    "I don`t even know what to say to that... lol."

    Let`s be perfectly honest here. If you believe there is no God, Why would you bother wasting energy hating God or religion ? Why wouldn`t you instead attempt to peacefully co-exist with those of differing beliefs, Instead of trying to raise their ire ? Hate is not productive, It can only be destructive.

  305. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 12:47 am
    Lazyme:
    I already provided the answer I felt was most suitable.

    Quote:
    "Incidentally, the better answer (better because it doesn`t just expand the Pascal`s Wager table, but actually defeats it), is that belief is not a choice."

    Full post is a few down from this one. Should still be on the same page.

  306. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 12:53 am
    Nidonemo:
    I don`t think that`s fair. I spent years on Infidels.org because they challenged my beliefs. I find people challenging my beliefs fun (though I don`t always show it. :))

    Also, she may have been an Atheist. "How do you answer this question" does not mean "I am posing this question", it`s part of the reason I got annoyed at the title.

    He decided she was a Christian, she made no claims.

  307. Profile photo of h0ax_d3m0n
    h0ax_d3m0n Male 18-29
    2513 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 1:38 am
    there is no God and your idiotic human ideals are laughable!

    - Bender.

  308. Profile photo of Dogboy76
    Dogboy76 Male 30-39
    156 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 1:58 am
    Meh. Believe what you want to believe. Just don`t go around shoving it in everyone elses face.
  309. Profile photo of joey7415963
    joey7415963 Male 18-29
    174 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 2:45 am
    .... He didn`t answer the question, he just repeated it back to her.
    Truth is if she is wrong she has not got as much to loose than he has if he is wrong.

    But totally agree with Dogboy76

  310. Profile photo of Radfad
    Radfad Male 30-39
    28 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 3:17 am
    Isn`t that what the internet`s for Dogboy?

    In this video, Dawkins is just trying to sell his book. She could ask the question of anyone and there`s no answer really. Ask a priest or a rabbi.
    I read the God Delusion and it`s pretty good btw.

  311. Profile photo of kipz0r
    kipz0r Male 18-29
    37 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 3:19 am
    @Joey71827349879172364
    Do you really think that if there was a god, he/she would bother with "he/she didn`t believe in me" When you lived a good life, supported others etc.

    I simply don`t believe in living a life now that would give me access to heaven. Why is it impossible for religious people to accept that I live my life as it is my only chance. I want to do everything, after I die there is nothing, no suffering, no heavenly happiness etc, simply nothing, I won`t notice cause I`m dead.
    Religious people are, in my eyes, people who are afraid of "nothing/nothingness" and people who don`t understand "nothing/nothingness".

    This life is your only chance, make something of it.

    (I`m not an Atheist btw, I don`t deny nor accept there is a god/are gods, if you think I`m an Atheist, look it up in a dictionary. Call me Secular Humanist)
  312. Profile photo of cleminem9919
    cleminem9919 Male 13-17
    383 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 3:26 am
    i like his point. kinda like the ending of a movie i saw yesterday... we`re just scared of the unknown.
  313. Profile photo of Nurcowski
    Nurcowski Male 18-29
    264 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 3:27 am
    all that I take away from this is that the question "what if you`re wrong?" isn`t really appropriate considering what he was talking about. Saying that he is wrong implies that the opposing side would be right. In this case the opposing side is theism of any kind (poly, mono, w/e), so all she is saying is `What if it is right to have a "religion"?` Beyond that, not believing in something isn`t any more right than believing in something and vice versa.

    Truth-seeking atheists and religious folk alike, instead of bickering, should recognize that materialism is more of a threat to both than the numbers `the other side` has in its ranks.

  314. Profile photo of Dogboy76
    Dogboy76 Male 30-39
    156 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 4:02 am
    " Isn`t that what the internet`s for Dogboy?"

    The internet is for shoving things in peoples faces?

  315. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 4:05 am
    CrakrJak

    "If you believe there is no God, Why would you bother wasting energy hating God or religion ? Why wouldn`t you instead attempt to peacefully co-exist with those of differing beliefs"

    Because the former is getting in the way of the latter.

  316. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 4:10 am
    My 1000th post
  317. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 4:18 am
    "The internet is for shoving things in peoples faces? "

    There are websites for that :)

  318. Profile photo of Scott_2150
    Scott_2150 Male 18-29
    801 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 4:21 am
    Check and mate!
  319. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 4:24 am
    "A true atheist wouldn`t care enough to hate God or religion. These people that hate God or religion are actually angry agnostics, But they won`t admit it."

    Unfortunately, you don`t get to decide what other people think.

    An atheist couldn`t hate any god, since they don`t believe any god exists.

    An atheist can hate religion, because religion does exist and is entirely about people.

    In any case, I think you`re mistaking "disagree with", "dislike" and "hate", perhaps deliberately in an attempt to denigrate those who disagree with you, claim the moral high ground and claim the power of pretending to be a victim of irrational prejudice.

  320. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 4:30 am
    "I`m not an Atheist btw, I don`t deny nor accept there is a god/are gods, if you think I`m an Atheist, look it up in a dictionary."

    If you look it up in an accurate dictionary, you`ll find that it isn`t as clear-cut as you think. You meet one of the definitions of `atheist`, the one that most atheists use - you don`t believe in gods (or an afterlife, or any of that religious stuff). `atheist` literally means `without a god`. By that definition, if you don`t have a god you`re an atheist.

  321. Profile photo of Painter13
    Painter13 Male 40-49
    1366 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 4:43 am
    Energy can neither be created nor destroyed....the rest is all subjective.
  322. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 4:44 am
    "However: This response isn`t all that fair. Assuming all interpretations vary in some small way shape or form, you could arguably cover 4.5 Billion out of 7 billion interpretations of religion simply by being a Monotheistic follower of any of the Abrahamic religions. "

    That`s true, but there are numerous variations on those religions, especially in Christianity. It has been common for followers of one variation to proclaim another to be heresy (and often murder them for it). Being a heretic is deemed worse than being an unbeliever.

    Maybe the correct religion is one of those now-dead "heresies" and all current followers of Abrahamic religions will be condemned as heretics and sent to a hell worse than that for unbelievers.

    No way of knowing until death.

  323. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 4:46 am
    Baalthazaq

    So your argument for being Christian is that Christianity has the worst punishment for not believing in their religion?

    Very well, I am starting a new religion; if you don`t believe that my left sock is the divine incarnation of the supreme being, then you will be damned to spend eternity suffering torments twice as bad as the Christian hell.

    My religion now should be the logical choice, shouldn`t it?

    Support my religion and Christianity turns out to be right: punishment by hell.
    Support Christianity and my religion turns out to be right: punishment twice as bad as hell.

    I await your conversion.

  324. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 5:06 am
    "so we all believe what we were brought up to believe? does he realize there are christians in india too?
    he uses the logic of a child."

    Like when you try and explain to a little kid that Santa Clause doesn`t exit you mean?

    His point is that you believe what you are indoctrinated to believe, mostly thats what you`re parents teach you. Thats the bit I don`t get with intelligent religous people, why they haven`t questioned their own beliefs, maybe the emotional investment is just too much.

    Anyway, to the point in hand - I thought buddhism was *the* cover your bases faith?

  325. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 5:07 am
    madest: nice.
  326. Profile photo of kipz0r
    kipz0r Male 18-29
    37 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 5:31 am
    @Angilion
    I don`t say "I have no god" I just said, I neither deny nor accept there is a god.

    It could still be Atheist if you take the Greek philosophy; if he believes in anything else we believe, he`s an Atheist. But then again, I`m going with the first dictionary explanation: "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."
    I don`t deny it, nor accept it.

  327. Profile photo of kipz0r
    kipz0r Male 18-29
    37 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 5:36 am
    By the way, is Christianity a monotheist religion?
    Christians believe in god and their Lord; Jesus Christ. (and God can also be said as "the Lord") Hence, 2 Gods, not monotheistic.

    *sees dark clouds coming over his head* uhoh.

  328. Profile photo of thor82
    thor82 Male 18-29
    56 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 5:38 am
    So Matt, what your saying is that religious people do not have the capacity or the willingness to decide what they believe and why?
  329. Profile photo of Bullish
    Bullish Male 30-39
    108 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 5:41 am
    This is a debate that will never be settled. It is like trying to debate which is better, american football or soccer. BTW - that pic below has Albert Einstein listed as an Athiest when he was definitely not. Agnostics FTW!
  330. Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 5:42 am
    Hey BAALTHAZAQ! Hello, over here! I`m still waiting for an answer to my question. I remember very well the occasions when I`m mistaken so I`m not letting this go easily.

    "A true atheist wouldn`t care enough to hate God or religion."

    You`re ignoring the larger picture. We don`t hate God any more than we don`t believe in him or it, but religion is not the same as belief; it`s an institution, one that violates our own value system. For example, I as an atheist cherish free thought and children coming to their own conclusions, and am therefore against parents bringing their kids to church or the church trying to butt in to science curriculum. I care about religion to the degree that I care about the direction of the human species and our emancipation from the darker, more embarrassing corners of our imagination.

  331. Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 5:46 am
    "that pic below has Albert Einstein listed as an Athiest when he was definitely not. Agnostics FTW!"

    Einstein didn`t have a personal god, therefore he was atheist. At most he could have been considered spiritual, but does that still count when one is `spiritual` about nature? It seems to contradict the term.

  332. Profile photo of Davilyan
    Davilyan Male 18-29
    73 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 5:54 am
    Why has IAB become a place of religious flame wars... each to their own, let people have their own opinions, and drop it. still think its a bit "childish" that these keep getting posted on here, KNOWING what its gonna start, which aint too bad once in a while, but seriouslyt, this has gott ahave been the 3rd or 4th "religious flame war" in the past week...
  333. Profile photo of ProXLaw
    ProXLaw Male 30-39
    122 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 5:55 am
    blah, blah, blah, God, blah, blah, blah, Atheism, blah, blah, blah... why can`t we accept the unknown? Why do we have to have a label for every damn thing? Why can`t humans accept that the truth is unknown? It seems foolish to commit to anyone or anything claiming they have the answers. We`re still a bunch of children fumbling in the dark.
  334. Profile photo of RecycleElf
    RecycleElf Male 18-29
    3621 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 6:14 am
    ProXLaw

    That was a seriusly retarded thing to say?

    What is the meaning of life?
    I think the meaning of life is to figure out the meaning of life. thats why we ask, its our purpose.

  335. Profile photo of thor82
    thor82 Male 18-29
    56 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 6:18 am
    Overmann: So how is my religion different then my belief. Aren`t they interconnected? Also, if you are for children coming to their own conclusions, does that mean when you have them that you will not teach them any view, whether it be atheistic or not? I believe in free will, but I also believe that it`s important to teach a child moral values. I am not going to force my child to believe anything, as you can`t with anyone. But that doesn`t mean I am going to ignore my responsibility as a parent. I am just very intrigued by that statement and need further explanation.
  336. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 6:25 am
    Ok:

    Angillion:
    You`re just expanding the table even further.

    Musuko:
    I`m NOT Christian.
    I was merely explaining a fallacy.
    I also gave a post already (this will be the third), explaining that belief is not a choice, and that is the main problem with the argument "Why don`t you believe".

    Overmann:
    ... what the hell? ... (Cycles through thread).
    Sigh.

    Ok:
    1) "Essentially the girl has the arrogance to assume she thought of something so basic and Richard hasn`t."

    She said: "This is probably the most simplest question for you to answer but..."

    You need to reign in your indignation.

    Next post coming for Overmann`s Question.

  337. Profile photo of Squareknot
    Squareknot Male 18-29
    22 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 6:26 am
    @ProXLaw

    That`d be WAY too easy. As a whole, our species likes to find absolutes, and we will settle or nothing less.

  338. Profile photo of EVILINK888
    EVILINK888 Male 40-49
    2 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 6:31 am
    lots of people for 100s of years have needed something to lead them and tell them what is right and what is wrong because they dont have or dont want to choose for themselves. for them it keeps them focused and it seems to bring comfort into an uncertain world. some people are thinkers and some are followers. thats just life. I dont try to convince christains that there is no god. but they sure bust my balls trying to convince me that there is. cant we just all get along...................
  339. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 6:33 am
    Overmann:
    There is more than enough information, in my ~20? posts to you in the previous thread to figure out the answer to any questions you have on your own.

    I also don`t ask questions which have assumptions built into them. "How did you expect to turn your non argument into one" is I assume the question we`re discussing?

    Was I making an argument? Was I the instigator? Was I trying to turn anything? Was it *my* argument?

    No, no, no and no. So drat all your assumptions and ask a legitimate question instead of one loaded to the brim with bullpoo.

    Any child can read our conversation and come to the conclusion that I tried to explain this to you for far longer than I should be expected to reasonably endure.

    It is my fault if I ignored you, but after 10 attempts (loooong attempts) at getting you to understand, your failing to do so becomes less and less my fault.

  340. Profile photo of pmarren
    pmarren Male 40-49
    4575 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 6:35 am
    Beautiful, simply beautiful.
  341. Profile photo of kipz0r
    kipz0r Male 18-29
    37 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 6:37 am
    @thor82:

    Really simply explained: Religion makes you go to church, and pay them, in donations, the 10% rule, whatever. Belief is what you believe in, if you believe in god and jesus and the whole shebang doesn`t make you part of a religion, going to church and starting to belief what other people tell you, living to the (biblical) rules other people give you is making you part of a religion.
    You can also start your own religion, if you want to. Even if it has weird ideas, like reading golden tablets from a hat.

    I think what Overmann is trying to say is that he will raise his children with a good sense of moral values, or do you think everyone who doesn`t believe in a god is immoral? I will raise my children with knowledge of the main religions, if they choose to become religious it`s up to them, but I will not make them.

  342. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 6:46 am
    Still Overmann:
    In particular I stated:
    "You didn`t make an argument yet. You made a statement, devoid of argument, and then repeated examples, at least one of which I have already discussed.
    Again, this is the tactic I mocked."

    I repeat:
    "This is the tactic I mocked"

    Elaboration:
    Mocked, parodied, copied.

    Your question: "How did you expect to turn your non argument into one"

    My answer:
    I wasn`t ever going to.
    I was demonstrating (by copying it) that it was a poor argument.
    I clearly succeeded.

    Finally:
    I think I`ve done more than enough to answer your question.

    I even joined IAB chat for the first time ever to see if I could explain better in real time, I was told by someone you sometimes appear so stayed a while for a couple of weeks.

    The fact that my body and mind can only endure explaining for DAYS at a time rather than (weeks? months?) is I think a reasonable allowance for stopping.

  343. Profile photo of thor82
    thor82 Male 18-29
    56 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 6:47 am
    kidz0r: no I don`t believe that everyone is immoral, I am immoral, and just because I believe in God doesn`t mean that all of the sudden I`ve become a perfect person and don`t do immoral things anymore. I am just trying to gain an understanding of his statement. And as far as religion, my beliefs coincide with my religion. I believe in God and Jesus, therefore I do go to church. I don`t necessarily just instantly believe what the church tells me to believe, hence free will. I have the choice to question whether it`s true or not. I don`t believe the Bible just because a certain religion told me to. I have questioned my faith and have reasons to believe it`s true. Therefore my religion is part of my belief. That`s why its hard for me to separate the two.
  344. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 6:50 am
    For those of you wonder what I`m talking about w/r Overmann`s question.

    He said (in this thread, 6 pages down from here I think) that I never answered a question he asked me in this thread. You may read the entire thread at your leisure and decide if that is the case for yourself.

  345. Profile photo of addler
    addler Male 13-17
    777 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 6:56 am
    seems like he dodged the whole idea of:

    atheist right: yay?

    atheist wrong-punished by whatever god happens to exist

    religion right, but you beleive in the wrong one:depending on what is right, you face some consequences

    religion right, yours is right: you are set!

  346. Profile photo of thedobkins
    thedobkins Male 30-39
    239 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 7:01 am
    He didn`t answer, just mocked. I am an agnostic, but I do believe there is something. I have the same question, "What if you are wrong?" If a christian is wrong about believing in God, and there really is none, then it won`t matter when they die. If an atheist is wrong, then there might be a price to pay when they pass away. I think that is what the questioner was getting at.
  347. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 7:03 am
    All the people who complain about religious subjects on IAB (and yeah I include you CrakrJak) Remind me of this pie chart:
  348. Profile photo of ProXLaw
    ProXLaw Male 30-39
    122 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 7:04 am
    RecycleElf...thanks for proving my point and trying to explain the purpose/meaning of my life. Personally, the purpose of my life is to try and make a positive difference in the lives of the people I meet and the world I live, but I suppose that`s probably retarded too.
  349. Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 7:18 am
    I`ll restate my question to remove any ambiguity.

    "How exactly do you expect to turn such an argument on others when there is no reason to suspect atheism is the cause?"

    To your post:

    "Was I making an argument? Was I the instigator?"

    Yes. What constitutes making an argument? Making an allegation and supporting it with data. What have you done? Suggested atheists should instead cite atheism as a cause for violence and researched a number like 63% of genocide. That is an argument. What you`re failing to do (deliberately or no) is draw the elusive direct link between atheism and violence sufficiently to convince atheists their own argument applies to them. In the case of atheists claiming religion is responsible for violence, at least the cases I have cited, religion was the direct culprit, usually on behalf of the Saudi religious police enforcing "morality" derived from Sharia Law.

  350. Profile photo of Kawoenheim
    Kawoenheim Male 18-29
    35 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 7:42 am
    "If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

    Bertrand Russel.

    Believing in something out of fear of being wrong is not believing.

  351. Profile photo of grahamm
    grahamm Male 18-29
    249 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 7:51 am
    i dont believe in god but if he does exist why would he punish me? he gave me free will, i havent killed 6 million jews or anything like that, whats the problem?
  352. Profile photo of hrlhrl2000
    hrlhrl2000 Male 30-39
    136 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 7:55 am
    Dawkins = legend. Brilliant, brilliant answer. Obvious, but so well said. Take that, religion!
  353. Profile photo of Subushie
    Subushie Male 18-29
    1646 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 8:21 am
    allthough i am athiest and i agree with him. he danced around the question and avoided answering it which is dumb. on a side note
    look at all the arguing people ^.^
    ||
    ||
    ||
    \/
  354. Profile photo of yarrrpirate
    yarrrpirate Male 18-29
    394 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 8:36 am
    Yes, it was a witty retort, but as said, he didn`t really answerthe question.

    Also, how amusing that the discussion in the comments has transformed from religion vs atheism to a heated argument about rhetorics. Pathetic.

  355. Profile photo of tenty
    tenty Male 18-29
    425 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 8:55 am
    He did answer it, he pointed out saying "what if you`re wrong" can be used for any argument...
  356. Profile photo of Pyrosisflame
    Pyrosisflame Male 18-29
    592 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 9:04 am
    he didnt answer it though... he just returned the same question
  357. Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 9:05 am
    "Was I trying to turn anything? Was it *my* argument?"

    Yes. Atheists claim religion is responsible for violence, usually accompanied with an example of a direct link between the two, as I`ve often cited. You wanted to suggest their argument applies to them. But if you can`t draw the link between atheism and violence, or if the link doesn`t exist, you are not parodying their argument and are being dishonest and inadequate.

    "I wasn`t ever going to. I was demonstrating (by copying it) that it was a poor argument. I clearly succeeded."

    Copying it? Hardly. Why not? No direct link. Clearly? Not until you can demonstrate how the Saudi government is acting on anything other than religious impulse. Not until you can dismiss the link atheists can draw and you can`t.

    My question is legitimate, and it continues to be until either you admit you don`t understand the argument as atheists use it, and how it differs from how you use it.

  358. Profile photo of TopperHey
    TopperHey Male 18-29
    1930 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 9:06 am
    THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY FIVE COMMENTS????

    We really need to stop showing these things. At least not without stating the EXACT point to be discussed first. Everyone just goes off on one with these things.

  359. Profile photo of sfcg
    sfcg Male 30-39
    796 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 9:12 am
    DARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  360. Profile photo of banjolegs
    banjolegs Male 30-39
    176 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 9:13 am
    Quick ma! come look at the angry people!
  361. Profile photo of almightybob1
    almightybob1 Male 18-29
    4290 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 9:16 am
    He didn`t answer the question because it`s too vague. What if he`s wrong about what? About the Judeo-Christian God, or about Allah, or about Thor, or about Zeus, or about Apollo, or about Demeter, or about Ra, or about Quetzacoatl...


    This list illustrates Dawkins` point very well. You can ask "What if you`re wrong?" about each and every deity on that list. They all have equal merit.

  362. Profile photo of Donan
    Donan Male 18-29
    15 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 9:51 am
    @scfg, epic picture, makes my day

    also: richard dawkins took his part in making my day

  363. Profile photo of harrydick
    harrydick Male 18-29
    332 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 10:47 am
    YoSoyNoob: What if I`m wrong about believing that there is a God? No consequence. What if your wrong about believing there is NOT a God? Big Consequence.

    ============================

    You can expand that even further and say "What if you believed in the wrong god?"

    I don`t keep up with number of religions on this planet, but...lets just say the odds aren`t in your favor buddy.

  364. Profile photo of Baelzar
    Baelzar Male 40-49
    1399 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 10:53 am
    Baalthazaq, your premise is flawed.

    If you give me a child to raise, I can make that child believe anything. Where do you think most religion comes from? Spontaneous thoughts in somebody`s head?

    Furthermore, even when the child grows up and learns to think critically (assuming they actually do, which is a stretch) they will STILL believe what I told them.

    Why? Because they can`t prove otherwise, and because there`s a lot of other people who were taught the same thing to reinforce their irrational belief.

    Belief may not be the child`s choice, but it was MY choice to make them believe.

  365. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 11:14 am
    "Baalthazaq, your premise is flawed.
    If you give me a child to raise, I can make that child believe anything. Where do you think most religion comes from? Spontaneous thoughts in somebody`s head?

    Furthermore, even when the child grows up and learns to think critically (assuming they actually do, which is a stretch) they will STILL believe what I told them.

    Why? Because they can`t prove otherwise, and because there`s a lot of other people who were taught the same thing to reinforce their irrational belief.

    Belief may not be the child`s choice, but it was MY choice to make them believe"

    if that was the case, we wouldn not be having that disscusion.

    Its because of people like Decartes, pioneers at going agaisnt the flow, that we even have this discussion.

  366. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 11:17 am
    /btw, how did you find out santa wasnt real???
  367. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 11:20 am
    btw, the chick in the video got owned, whether religion is right or wrong hes right.
  368. Profile photo of startech
    startech Male 30-39
    235 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 11:31 am
    If Christians are wrong, then they`re just worm food when they die. If Atheists are wrong, they go to hell.
  369. Profile photo of fishgul69
    fishgul69 Female 18-29
    914 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 11:49 am
    B00SH, in yo face! but seriously, he`s got a huge point that I think intuitively we can all agree with on some level. and then there are exceptions about people born in other countries and are taught the minority religion (i.e. born/raised in India and taught Catholic) but all in all, he`s right about whatever you`re taught from childhood most likely sticks. we have many examples where that`s not true and people convert or disregard religion entirely, but that`s ok, too. her question was just too vague to have any sort of support of ANYTHING: "what if you`re wrong?" then he`s wrong. but just like he said to her, "what if YOU`RE wrong?"
  370. Profile photo of Genocyde
    Genocyde Male 30-39
    712 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 11:57 am
    Let me answer preemptively the same question from an Atheist: If I`m wrong then life goes on for me. I still get up and go to work, I still collect a paycheck and unexplainable things that I don`t have the time to look into still happen in my life and I`m fine with that. I don`t require that a deity of any sort come into every aspect of my life 24/7. That would be sort of selfish and there are other people created by that deity that may need his/her/it`s help. If it doesn`t exist, though, I`m okay with that. I`m food for a physical furnace at the end of my life and everyone who was invited for the funeral gets to see the urn shot out of a cannon in the shape of a middle finger. I`m okay with that.

    Now that someone with a belief system has answered the question in full, why couldn`t Dawkins do anything but oversimplify, make assumptions and then counter so defensively?

  371. Profile photo of T3hPhilip
    T3hPhilip Male 13-17
    38 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 12:13 pm
    Lol.
    I`m a fan. Where`s his FB fangroup?
  372. Profile photo of chrn368
    chrn368 Male 18-29
    174 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 12:20 pm
    Atheists may be wrong, but what if we`re reincarnated instead because it was really the Buddhists that were right, or we end up in the afterlife with no riches or possessions because the ancient Egyptian religions were right? Atheists could be wrong, but that doesn`t mean they`re going to hell, there`s hundreds of different religions, any one of those could be right, not just Christianity.
  373. Profile photo of kimkio
    kimkio Female 18-29
    877 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 12:36 pm
    what`s the use of making people believe that they`re going to be buried under wormy ground and be rotten after a couple of years instead of giving them a hope to live by convincing them they will find happiness even if they had a sorrowful life and be rewarded someday somehow if they don`t hurt other people? okay then, let`s don`t believe in poo and kill ourselves if there`s nothing to enjoy and make other people suffer just to have fun if we want it that way, yaaay! brillant idea!
  374. Profile photo of Raberboom
    Raberboom Male 18-29
    833 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 12:37 pm
    "what`s the use of making people believe that they`re going to be buried under wormy ground and be rotten after a couple of years instead of giving them a hope to live by convincing them they will find happiness even if they had a sorrowful life and be rewarded someday somehow if they don`t hurt other people? okay then, let`s don`t believe in poo and kill ourselves if there`s nothing to enjoy and make other people suffer if we want just to have fun, yaaay! brillant idea!"


    yes but following a religion sacrifices free will.
    same statement for the "What if your wrong" people.

  375. Profile photo of Loganp3
    Loganp3 Male 18-29
    112 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 1:15 pm
    I`m a Christian Islamic Hindi Buddhist with Neo-Pagan Zoroastrian Jewish tendencies. I just hope I`m covered.
  376. Profile photo of wcclark
    wcclark Male 18-29
    731 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 1:20 pm
    As an Apatheist, I have this to say:

    ...is this all IAB has become? Dumb pictures, "realistic physics" games, politics and religion debating?

  377. Profile photo of SpacemnSpiff
    SpacemnSpiff Male 18-29
    101 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 1:27 pm
    I can`t stand when people answer a question with a question. All he had to say was "I`ll burn in Hell if I`m wrong about Christianity."
  378. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 1:45 pm
    Overmann:

    The problem with you comes that you don`t believe your own argument.

    "Atheists claim religion is responsible for violence, usually accompanied with an example of a direct link between the two, as I`ve often cited."

    Bullpoo.
    You pluck out a verse out of context and claim it is the source of all ills in Christian countries.

    Simultaneously, if Christians pluck out a verse of good you claim that biblical verses have no impact on any acts any people ever perform. "These are all common sense".

    For you, there is only ever going to be a link when it suits you, even when it is the same style and source as your opponents.

    "Usually accompanied by an example of a direct link"

    Usually has a meaning jackass, count the posts on this forum WITHOUT a direct link. Count the generic throwouts of "religion causes all the worlds problems".

    Usually? 1 in 100 if that. You didn`t even do it once in the thread in question.

  379. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 1:49 pm
    Baelzar:
    Even if I agree with your statement, my premise isn`t flawed at all. I still didn`t choose my belief.

    Does agreeing with you on every point actually make anything I`ve said wrong?

  380. Profile photo of crazyjelly
    crazyjelly Male 13-17
    74 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 1:49 pm
    this guy is so right
  381. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 2:05 pm
    Incidentally, Overmann, part of my point was that the links Atheists often do make (if they do make them at all, which is demonstrably, through just drating counting, an UNUSUAL event), are spurious.

    I could claim Atheists lack morality, and this clearly leads to more murders. I could claim that not having "thou shall not kill" in their system of beliefs, is demonstrated.

    I could even more rightly demonstrate that much of China and Russia`s genocide was the result of trying to destroy religious groups.

    However this is all unnecessary, when the argument I was mocking clearly used CORRELATION to demonstrate CAUSATION, and provided no additional details.

    These mystical atheists you speak of who are always logical, always right, always scientific, and always cite their (always reliable) sources, are a greater imagining on your part than anything theistic God I have ever seen.

    And I was around for the birth of the IPU.

  382. Profile photo of Squareknot
    Squareknot Male 18-29
    22 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 2:45 pm
    Wow.... I love how he answers the question with a question, kind of dancing around it like he doesn`t want to admit that he could POSSIBLY be wrong. All he had to say is, "Well, I guess I`d burn in hell, wouldn`t I?"
  383. Profile photo of Trumple07
    Trumple07 Male 13-17
    422 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 2:52 pm
    Win.
  384. Profile photo of Squareknot
    Squareknot Male 18-29
    22 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 2:54 pm
    @Raberboom

    What religion do you follow? As far as I`m concerned, my religion teaches me to be the best I can, and repent when I fall off the wagon. I`m not perfect and I never will be, and that is understood to be so. I guess you could say it`s taking away my free will by telling me not to rape and murder a woman and then go home to my wife, but I wouldn`t do that even if I were an atheist :\.

  385. Profile photo of miasmaat
    miasmaat Female 18-29
    298 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 3:44 pm
    that really says a lot.. what if you`re wrong? well then you`ll burn in hell.. but if judeo christian type faiths are wrong then you could end up being reborn as a flour beetle or end up in hades or one with the universe or something else. perhaps you`ll just cease to exist entirely. Who knows. You dont. I dont. Its a mystery at present. Some people just have more conviction in their particular idea without proof. SO much conviction that they`ll try to get everyone else to believe it too.
    the idea of believing in the religion with the most distasteful punishment for non belief (i`e hell. tormented by demons for all eternity) as a means of hedging your bets (you`re better off believing in our religion, if it turns out we`re wrong the outcome will be nothing like as bad as what happens to nonbelievers under our system)- is cheap and undermines the nature of belief in a religion in the first place. it really just says a lot about the underlying purpose of religion.
  386. Profile photo of gorgack2000
    gorgack2000 Male 13-17
    4682 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 4:23 pm
    I want Richard Dawkin`s babies. Even if I`m male...
  387. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 4:56 pm
    "By the way, is Christianity a monotheist religion?
    Christians believe in god and their Lord; Jesus Christ. (and God can also be said as "the Lord") Hence, 2 Gods, not monotheistic.

    *sees dark clouds coming over his head* uhoh."

    It`s 3. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The Christian trinity. But the 3 are 1. And 3. But also 1. Because they`re God, so they can do that.

    It is a bit odd, but it is monotheism.

    It also isn`t *essential* for Christianity, but other views were long ago suppressed as heresy.

    Check this out for a Christian explaining the Christian mono-trinity thing:

    http://www.christianity.co.nz/trinity1.htm

  388. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 5:01 pm
    "He didn`t answer, just mocked. I am an agnostic, but I do believe there is something. I have the same question, "What if you are wrong?" If a christian is wrong about believing in God, and there really is none, then it won`t matter when they die. If an atheist is wrong, then there might be a price to pay when they pass away. I think that is what the questioner was getting at."

    If so, she was wrong. This has been addressed many times in this thread - Pascal`s Wager is riddled with logical fallacies, starting off with but not limited to a false dichotomy.

    But I think his answer was incomplete and unsatisfactory.

  389. Profile photo of JonHarper
    JonHarper Male 18-29
    5 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 5:11 pm

    Squareknot:

    Wow.... I love how he answers the question with a question, kind of dancing around it like he doesn`t want to admit that he could POSSIBLY be wrong. All he had to say is, "Well, I guess I`d burn in hell, wouldn`t I?"

    When the girl asked "What if you`re wrong" she was obviously referring to Christianity, and he replied that he was just as likely to be wrong about every other religion. http://www.adherents.com/ has information on 4400 religions. This means there is a 1 in 4400 chance (a whole 0.0227272727%) that your religion is the right one. Dawkins has an equal chance of having his head used as a cobblestone (see: viking) as going to hell.

  390. Profile photo of h0ax_d3m0n
    h0ax_d3m0n Male 18-29
    2513 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 5:28 pm
    This interwebz argument is fapalishious!

    *FAP FAP FAP*

  391. Profile photo of catbarf
    catbarf Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 5:37 pm
    " This means there is a 1 in 4400 chance (a whole 0.0227272727%) that your religion is the right one."

    Not true. Gods are always eternal, so the true religion might be one that doesn`t exist yet.

    In the end, Pascal`s Wager is false and downright dishonest in intention- you shouldn`t choose your beliefs based on the idea of hedging your bets.

  392. Profile photo of fancylady
    fancylady Female 30-39
    864 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 6:03 pm
    http://xkcd.com/435/
    Thanks Snazyguy ,gotta love xkcd .My boyfriend has this one taped up in his office :)
  393. Profile photo of Ani187
    Ani187 Female 30-39
    4448 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 6:24 pm
    You`re good, davy. Nice and toasty in here still.
  394. Profile photo of JonHarper
    JonHarper Male 18-29
    5 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 6:38 pm
    SO...I`m supposed to take things that haven`t happened yet into account? 1 in 4401?
  395. Profile photo of SmilinSam
    SmilinSam Female 18-29
    3599 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 7:26 pm
    well, i guess i`m an exception to the rule, i was raised VERY religiously. i went to church like, three times a week. i thought that it was my own opinion and i worked hard to make sure everyone i knew also knew about my religion. i was prominent in my church and had a (slight) leadership position there. it was not until i left the shelter of that church group that i realized there were other ways of thinking about the world and that just because what my parents taught me to be true was the only thing i had ever accepted it didn`t mean that i couldn`t be rational about it. so i started thinking for myself. and i came up with some different conclusions then what i`d been taught. i no longer believe in one vengeful god that will damn you to hell for all eternity. but i still believe in the bible (which by the way never mentions Hell. that is a more modern invention) because it does teach valuable life lessons that could potentially make life easier. but to use it for purposes like...
  396. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 7:27 pm
    You`re good, davy. Nice and toasty in here still.

    Thanks Ani. I take pride in my work.

    Nah, on a more serious note though, I do genuinely enjoy these kinds of debates. Not in a voyeuristic sadistic way, nor to make one group look silly, nor to score points, nor to score hits for the site (I don`t get paid, I don`t give a sh*t).

    On the contrary, these kinds of debates bring out some of the most intelligent people on IAB, from both sides of the spectrum (on one side the likes of Baalthazaq and Crakrjak, on the other side the likes of Overmann, Angilion, Almightybob and catbarf to name a few). And I do mean "intelligent" sincerely, on both sides.

    These kinds of posts are exactly the reason I signed up to IAB, which is why I like them. Baalthazaq knows what I mean - there is some warmth to be had from a flame-war, personally, like Baal, I enjoy them immensely.

  397. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 7:27 pm
    And to those posters who complain that they want less of these flame-wars and debates and such, and want more vids of f*cking kittens playing in a box, nutshots, and the like: Hey, guess what, we have them too, in abundance, on a daily basis. Don`t like the sound of the link? Don`t click it and then b*tch about it. In fact, I can think of few things in life easier than clicking on a link than *not* clicking on a link.

    As I`ve said many times before, it`s not like you`re paying for this sh*t.

  398. Profile photo of SmilinSam
    SmilinSam Female 18-29
    3599 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 7:27 pm
    banning gay marriage or to stop teaching evolution in the schools is just plain ignorant. nobody probably cares, but my opinion of "God" is that he is a force, unseeable, that represents all that is good. the Good. i follow the Good of all Goods.
  399. Profile photo of sTuFFt
    sTuFFt Male 13-17
    72 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 7:57 pm
    If you really want to know about what happens when we die, then let`s wait until we have the technology to bring cryogenically(sp?) frozen heads back to life. Correct me if I`m wrong, but when you give your body to a cryogenics lab, then after you die, they take your body to a lab and freeze you in the hopes that your body cells might still be living. If God is there (which I very much do believe he is, although I`m very open minded to other`s beliefs) then if the bodies are able to be revived, they will be nothing more than a lump of living matter. If there is a God, and he wants us to die at that point, then he would take our soul to heaven (effectively removing the thinking mind from the mortal body). Two scenarios. God exists, the body/head revived is a brain dead lump. No function at all. Lives via life support. A vegetable of science. God doesn`t exist, the possibility remains that we can be revived after being frozen. Athiest or Christian, think that over.
  400. Profile photo of Baelzar
    Baelzar Male 40-49
    1399 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 9:07 pm
    Dawkins was simply trying to point out the absurdity of such a question. "What if you`re wrong?"

    "What if YOU`RE wrong?" Then he went on to expose the fallacy.

    How is he supposed to answer, exactly? It`s a stupid question! Why not use it to SOME value and make a point?

  401. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 9:20 pm
    "i no longer believe in one vengeful god that will damn you to hell for all eternity. but i still believe in the bible (which by the way never mentions Hell. that is a more modern invention)"

    The word `hell` is more recent, but the idea of it isn`t. That vengeful god is also in the bible you say you believe in, in spades. Mass slaughter, punishment of innocents, etc.

  402. Profile photo of sfcg
    sfcg Male 30-39
    796 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 10:27 pm

  403. Profile photo of oceanbeast
    oceanbeast Male 18-29
    549 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 10:32 pm
    no scientist ever to this day has ever been able to sprout life where life did not exist, life to non life. thats all im saying and im out dont wana get burned
  404. Profile photo of Unbreakable
    Unbreakable Female 18-29
    327 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 10:51 pm
    Not necessarily.
  405. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 14, 2009 at 10:56 pm
    "no scientist ever to this day has ever been able to sprout life where life did not exist, life to non life."

    Two replies:

    i) What makes you think that`s in any way relevant? You appear to be arguing that science in invalid unless scientists can create life. Which is a very strange argument.

    ii) Several groups of scientists are close to being able to create life from scratch. Second genesis. One team can create a *working* ribosome from scratch. That`s most of the job of creating life from scratch done. By "from scratch" I mean typing the genes into a computer and having it use some bags of chemicals to create life with that genetic code.

  406. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 12:37 am
    Ugh, I actually agree with Angillion.

    Stop making me do that! I feel violated.

  407. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 12:51 am
    Although it does remind me of an old joke:

    At some point in the future scientists decide that mankind has progressed so much, that they are as powerful as God.

    So the scientists send an Ambassador to go and talk to him and tell him he is being made redundant (fired), and his services will no longer be required.

    The scientist talks to God and God says "Fine, I tell you what, you make a human being out dirt, and I`ll be out of your hair, no severance package, no nothing".

    Scientist says ok, and reaches down, scooping some dirt out of the ground.

    God say "Hey, get your own damn dirt".
    **************************************

    I think this is actually a very good demonstration of what I think is the "God of the gaps" mistake.

    God will always be at the beginning, not in the gaps. I think it really takes a caveman to suggest otherwise, with maybe some exceptions w/r domains specific to God.

  408. Profile photo of AnImbroglio
    AnImbroglio Male 30-39
    838 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 1:30 am
    Ok, while I have no particular dog in this fight, I would like to point out that his entire argument there was a fallacy. Ad hominem "you`re another", to be precise. He entirely avoided the question, though the question, in this case, is pretty self-evident.
  409. Profile photo of AnImbroglio
    AnImbroglio Male 30-39
    838 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 1:34 am
    Oh, and using Kirk Cameron to represent the religious aspect is a touch unfair. That`s a bit like asking a high school basketball player to represent the NBA.
  410. Profile photo of Kodida
    Kodida Male 18-29
    21 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 4:30 am
    AbImbroglio: It`s true he does not directly answer the question, but the answer is obvious to anyone (punishment depending on the religion that`d turn out to be true) - it really doesn`t need to be answered.
    The way I understand it, the girl`s point is "If you`re wrong, you`re going to be punished. Why not play it safe and join a religion?", the answer is "Because even that wouldn`t make me any more safe, as no matter what religion I`d join, the danger would be the same.".
  411. Profile photo of oceanbeast
    oceanbeast Male 18-29
    549 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 6:54 am
    anglion

    1. thats not what im saying at all

    2. being close to, is not the same as actually doing.

    3. i am a believer of intelligent design, although intelligent design does not base itself in religion and has nothing to do with God vs. no God it is relative. the universe, atoms, molecules all have intelligent design.

  412. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 7:38 am
    Ocean: On your point 2:

    Will you change your mind about whatever point you`re trying to make if they do it in the next 5 years?

  413. Profile photo of BenTheBug
    BenTheBug Male 18-29
    1195 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 10:44 am
    I notice he didn`t actually answer the question...
  414. Profile photo of astafinesta
    astafinesta Male 40-49
    55 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 12:20 pm
    Wrong about what? What did he say before?
  415. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 1:44 pm
    Baalthazaq - I may an aethiest (in the roughest sense) but you do have a point with your `god of the gaps`. You can use theories to build good science, and you can push it ever outwards and downwards (if you know what I mean) but I don`t think science will ever get to the point where its all knowing. There will allways be some axiom - some leap of faith if you will.

    Where we may differ though, is that I don`t see the need to have a god to bridge the gap. Its unkown, or unfathomable, miraculous even (as is anything as yet unknown), but I don`t think its the work of the god I was assigned as a kid.

  416. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 1:49 pm
    As for oceanbeast - intelligent design?

    Oh for fecks sake.

    The appendix is a big joke right? The vagus nerve that runs up and down a giraffes neck, just for laughs? Whales having vestigual legs, oh the hilarity!

  417. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 3:25 pm
    "1. thats not what im saying at all"

    Then would you care to explain what meaning you think was contained in your statement?

    "2. being close to, is not the same as actually doing."

    They have *a working ribosome*. You could possibly call that life. It`s unlikely to take more than a year to do the rest and have undeniably created life from some bags of chemicals.

    "3. i am a believer of intelligent design, although intelligent design does not base itself in religion and has nothing to do with God vs. no God it is relative. the universe, atoms, molecules all have intelligent design."

    You appear to have no idea what intelligent design is. It`s entirely religious. What`s more, it`s a specific religion - Christianity.

    You claim to believe, without any evidence at all, that a person created all life...and you don`t see that as faith in a god? It is faith and it is about a god - how on earth can that not be religious?

  418. Profile photo of sTuFFt
    sTuFFt Male 13-17
    72 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 4:29 pm
    "You appear to have no idea what intelligent design is. It`s entirely religious. What`s more, it`s a specific religion - Christianity. "

    If you`re trying to say that Intelligent Design is synonomous with Christianity, then you`re wrong. Intelligent Design is basically an agnostic view on our world. There are way too many variables in the universe for this all to come out of an explosion. Thus, the idea that some sort of being(s) has made us for some certain reason. That being said, this being may or may not be the Judeo-Christian God. It could be aliens. We could be a computer program, and we don`t know it. Maybe it is the Christian God. Maybe Thor gave a mighty swipe of his hammer and we were created.

    The whole point is, just because you believe in intelligent design, it does not neccesarily mean you believe in the Christian God.

  419. Profile photo of Suicism
    Suicism Male 18-29
    3625 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 5:36 pm
    Elementary objection to Atheism to be sure, but Dawkins FTW nonetheless.

    "There are way too many variables in the universe for this all to come out of an explosion."

    Um, wouldn`t such a degree of variation actually correspond to an explosive origin?

  420. Profile photo of sTuFFt
    sTuFFt Male 13-17
    72 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 6:48 pm
    "Um, wouldn`t such a degree of variation actually correspond to an explosive origin?"

    Maybe using the term "variable" was a bad choice of word. I meant that there are way to many things that are lined up in this universe to work together to have come from an explosion. If that makes sense... :P

  421. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 8:01 pm
    "If you`re trying to say that Intelligent Design is synonomous with Christianity, then you`re wrong."

    In theory, it could be another religion. In practice, it isn`t.

    "Intelligent Design is basically an agnostic view on our world."

    No, it isn`t. Agnosticism is essentially not knowing and not claiming knowledge you can`t objectively support. ID is faith in a creator. That is not agnosticism, obviously.

    "There are way too many variables in the universe for this all to come out of an explosion."

    No-one is claiming that is what happened. Even if they were (and they aren`t), you have just made a statement of faith as if it were proven truth. Even if you weren`t (and you are), a lack of an explanation is not proof of god.

    "The whole point is, just because you believe in intelligent design, it does not neccesarily mean you believe in the Christian God."

    In theory, it could be another religion. In practice, it isn`t.

  422. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 8:03 pm
    To address the "but it might be aliens" argument: if you are postulating these aliens as the Creator, you are basically making them gods.

    Can you find me an example of anyone who follows the faith of ID who believes that aliens are the Creator?

    In fact, how about any follower of ID who does not believe the Creator is the Abrahamic god?

  423. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 15, 2009 at 8:11 pm
    "Maybe using the term "variable" was a bad choice of word. I meant that there are way to many things that are lined up in this universe to work together to have come from an explosion. If that makes sense... :P"

    A logical fallacy.

    Not forgetting the fact that no-one is saying the universe was caused by an explosion. The "big bang" of the theory wasn`t an explosion.

    It is true that a chain of unlikely events has occured to make our existence possible. *If it hadn`t, we wouldn`t be here talking about how unlikely it is.* We are an unrepresentative sample.

    Take a lottery, for example. It is extremely unlikely that you`ll win it. Does that mean that each lottery is rigged specifically for each winner, that someone decided that particular person would win?

  424. Profile photo of Baalthazaq
    Baalthazaq Male 18-29
    4548 posts
    October 16, 2009 at 1:39 am
    Maybe you`re thinking about this wrong Angillion.

    I agree that ID in the US (and much of Europe) revolves around Christianity, but it doesn`t need to be that way.

    Many ID proponents are also proponents because of their religious beliefs.

    This is all in agreement with you I`d say, but maybe what Stufft is arguing is that it doesn`t need to be.

    I`m sure you could structure and ID hypothesis/theory/argument which revolves around agnosticism, and therefore "ID" as an umbrella term is not Christian.

    To give another example. "Communism" is not the same as "Chinese Communism", yet the latter is the only working model currently in practice.

    It is far removed from what Marx described.

    I think what you seem to be doing here is saying in practice only "X"(Ch.Comm/Ch.ID) works, so that is communism/ID.

    What Stufft is saying is "Y"(Comm/ID) is the unadulterated description, so that is.

    You`re just arguing terms I think.

  425. Profile photo of Wazpoppin9
    Wazpoppin9 Male 18-29
    71 posts
    October 16, 2009 at 3:56 am
    ok ok ok... so if your an atheist... God bless you... i have no problem with you... i just wish you could see all the good due to Christianity in the world... yes, the Christians have made mistakes in the past, but who was it that reformed? were it people of other faiths, were it people who didnt believe in God, were it foreigners?

    no, it was the Christianfolk themsleves, because they saw that what they were doing was not what Jesus wanted them to be doing. (one example i can think of is slavery - abolished by William Wilberforce in British Empire, and Abraham Lincoln in the US -- both due to their deep Christian faith)...

  426. Profile photo of Wazpoppin9
    Wazpoppin9 Male 18-29
    71 posts
    October 16, 2009 at 4:04 am
    atheists, we are truly sorry for the mistakes of the past weve done (ask yourself do we do those things now? and who reformed us?) but please remember that the freedoms you cherish (in which you *can* be like Mr Dawkins here and question the very existence of God)... please seek to know where do the freedoms come from? Not from man, but from God.

    Im trying not to cause offence, but what about the amount of godless totalitarian atheistic regimes of the early 20th Century that killed millions... why do you not want to be held accountable for those? Why is it that the very thing that built the freedoms of your land is being thrown away? The very institution that guarantees your choice in either choosing or rejecting God?

    And finally, what about the Altruism within Christianity... whether you belive there is a God or not... do not Christians do a trumultous amount of caring of the worlds needy?

    Jesus Christ said to love all those including those who hate you... please remember that

  427. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    October 16, 2009 at 4:21 am
    Wazpoopin9 : You are confusing religion with government, dude. Most of the time I don`t have a problem with the fairly common sense coda embedded within the key religions, its the dratting implementation that usually sucks. Same goes for a governance on pure intellectual principle.
  428. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    October 16, 2009 at 4:23 am
    I don`t think the church willing gave up its influence and allowed us freedom of choice. Its more a case of you can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time...
  429. Profile photo of MattPrince
    MattPrince Male 40-49
    2220 posts
    October 16, 2009 at 4:25 am
    As for Lincoln...
  430. Profile photo of sTuFFt
    sTuFFt Male 13-17
    72 posts
    October 16, 2009 at 8:54 pm
    "Can you find me an example of anyone who follows the faith of ID who believes that aliens are the Creator?"

    I`m not quite sure, but isn`t Scientology based on that?

  431. Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    October 16, 2009 at 8:56 pm
    "You pluck out a verse out of context and claim it is the source of all ills in Christian countries."

    A verse? As in a bible verse? Please link me to where I have done this. I have no such recollection. Besides, people don`t need a Bible to believe in God. That is to say that their beliefs are not necessarily always informed by the bible, which means I don`t resort to bible verses when I need to cite examples of misconduct on the part of religious people.

    "Simultaneously, if Christians pluck out a verse of good you claim that biblical verses have no impact on any acts any people ever perform."

    Again, the Bible doesn`t necessarily inform peoples` actions. Sure the Bible has good as it does bad, but as I don`t believe morality is derived from the Bible, this means essentially nothing.

  432. Profile photo of sTuFFt
    sTuFFt Male 13-17
    72 posts
    October 16, 2009 at 8:59 pm
    "Take a lottery, for example. It is extremely unlikely that you`ll win it. Does that mean that each lottery is rigged specifically for each winner, that someone decided that particular person would win?"

    If you want to use lottery as an analogy, you could say that although it is not rigged for a particular person, it was created by someone (in essence, a "god" figure, if you will, just for example) with the intent that somone would win. Hopefully you caught what I meant, I confuse myself sometimes :P

    "Can you find me an example of anyone who follows the faith of ID who believes that aliens are the Creator?"
    I`m not quite sure, but isn`t Scientology based on that?

  433. Profile photo of sTuFFt
    sTuFFt Male 13-17
    72 posts
    October 16, 2009 at 9:05 pm
    Also, I have a question, I`m not using this in any argument or anything, but I`m just curious.


    I`m assuming that modern science believes that the Big Bang created the universe. If so, what created the big bang if nothing was there before? Also, we know that matter is neither created or destroyed, only changed into different forms. So how could this Big Bang create matter and turn it into starts and galaxies and planets?

  434. Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    October 16, 2009 at 9:41 pm
    "For you, there is only ever going to be a link when it suits you, even when it is the same style and source as your opponents."

    It is not the same style or source. There is no tradition in the news of atheists committing violence against believers with specifically their religion as the motivator. An example of the contrary: The protests against the Danish cartoons depicting Mohammed. The motivation was the perceived insult to Islam (untie the religious connection if you can). How many embassies were burned out? How many protests involving stoning? How many deaths?

    Now show me a similar example of atheist protests against religious people for having mocked atheism. Let`s see that.

  435. Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    October 16, 2009 at 9:50 pm
    "These mystical atheists you speak of who are always logical, always right, always scientific, and always cite their (always reliable) sources, are a greater imagining on your part than anything theistic God I have ever seen."

    I`ve known some really stupid atheists in my recent lifetime, so this perception you have of me is erroneous and I`m marking it up as an ad hominem and a straw man.

  436. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2009 at 8:59 pm
    sTuFFt:

    My analogy didn`t get my point across, so I`ll try again.

    The conditions for life seem highly improbable. For the sake of argument, I`ll pick a figure of one in a billion star systems.

    If a person looks *only* at one star system and it has life in it, they might conclude that it`s so unlikely that it proves that the god(s) they believe in exist *because they already believe that*.

    If, on the other hand, a person looked at a billion star systems and only one had life in it, that would just be as expected with those odds.

    We can only really look at one star system and of course it has life in it - if it didn`t, we wouldn`t be here to talk about it. So by our very existence we`ve got an unrepresentative view on life and the universe.

  437. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2009 at 9:06 pm
    Another analogy:

    On a fair 6-sided dice, the chance of rolling a 6 10 times in a row is 1 in 60,466,176.

    If a fair dice was rolled 3 times a minute, it would probably be about 38 years before 10 consecutive 6`s were rolled.

    If a person in the dice-rolling room for *only* the 3 minutes 20s that it took for that sequence of 10 6`s to occur, they might well see it as spectacularly improbable. If they were a theist, they might well interpret it as divine intervention.

    If they ignored all the other rolls of the dice over the decades.

  438. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2009 at 9:09 pm
    >>Can you find me an example of anyone who follows >>the faith of ID who believes that aliens are the >>Creator?

    >I`m not quite sure, but isn`t Scientology based >on that?

    Do Scientologist identify themselves as proponents of ID?

    ID was devised by Christian creationists as a rebranding of Christian creationism when it became clear that their first attempt to corrupt science teaching in schools had failed.

    I still think that in theory ID could be another religion, but in practice it`s Christianity.

  439. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2009 at 9:36 pm
    "I`m assuming that modern science believes that the Big Bang created the universe."

    *In its current form* A key distinction.

    "If so, what created the big bang if nothing was there before?"

    Something was there before - a singularity. Which is really an "I don`t know what it is."

    "Also, we know that matter is neither created or destroyed, only changed into different forms. So how could this Big Bang create matter and turn it into starts and galaxies and planets?"

    Energy and matter are forms of the same thing, so matter can be made from energy (and vice versa).

    The big bang theory isn`t an explanation of the origin of the universe. It`s an explanation of what happened afterwards. Maybe only a tiny fraction of a second afterwards, but afterwards.

    Another answer to your question is that time was created with space, so there is no such thing as before the universe existed.

  440. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 17, 2009 at 9:39 pm
    Your question applies equally well to religion:

    What created your god(s)? What existed before them? How could they be created from nothing?

    If you answer that your god(s) is/are eternal and therefore weren`t created, then surely you must consider the argument that the universe is eternal and therefore wasn`t created.

  441. Profile photo of Overmann
    Overmann Male 18-29
    2600 posts
    October 18, 2009 at 10:28 pm
    Another, more recent example of people killing with a religious motive.
  442. Profile photo of thinkbig1224
    thinkbig1224 Male 18-29
    20 posts
    October 22, 2009 at 7:51 pm
    Well aside from avioding the question entirely, I couldn`t even make out what he said before people began cheering.
  443. Profile photo of krisley
    krisley Male 18-29
    525 posts
    October 24, 2009 at 9:13 pm
    Since this video didn`t really answer the question asked, and some people on here were speaking of aliens, I`m going to drop my theory on aliens (My friend says it`s off of a movie, but I`ve never seen said movie so if someone thinks of it please tell me).

    One of the big problem scientists have with time travel is, "Why aren`t we seeing ourselves from the future right now?" My answer is, we are. Scientists say that the odds of aliens resembling humans at all are remarkably low, due to the whole enormity of the universe thing, so why are alien descriptions mostly humanoid? Aliens are an evolved form of human from the far future. Lack of sunlight, exercise, and likely food that occurs when floating about space nonstop (Earth has presumably exploded by the time these creatures come about) has led to aliens gray, blobby appearance. Their highly advanced medicine is the only thing that keeps them alive. <c>

  444. Profile photo of krisley
    krisley Male 18-29
    525 posts
    October 24, 2009 at 9:18 pm
    By the time they unlock the mystery of time travel, they have mastered the art of invisibility (Failures of invisibility occur at times, and this is when we catch glimpses of their spacecraft.) They are abducting humans to study for scientific reasons, we are their `missing link`. The increasing number of ufo spottings recently suggest that more and more of these `aliens` are choosing to visit our time. Whether this points to a disaster that is about to unfold, or great advances for the human race is debatable. (An alternate cause of their apparent malformations is that in the act of time travel, horrible transformations occur due to the bending of time and space.)

    Again, if you`ve heard of a movie like this, please tell me. I swear that this came to me in the middle of the night sometime.

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