Christianity Vs. Atheism: What If You`re Wrong?

Submitted by: davymid 8 years ago in Science

Earlier this week we had Kirk Cameron, today we have Richard Dawkins with a quick video. Bring your Flame Shields.
There are 444 comments:
Male 526
By the time they unlock the mystery of time travel, they have mastered the art of invisibility (Failures of invisibility occur at times, and this is when we catch glimpses of their spacecraft.) They are abducting humans to study for scientific reasons, we are their `missing link`. The increasing number of ufo spottings recently suggest that more and more of these `aliens` are choosing to visit our time. Whether this points to a disaster that is about to unfold, or great advances for the human race is debatable. (An alternate cause of their apparent malformations is that in the act of time travel, horrible transformations occur due to the bending of time and space.)

Again, if you`ve heard of a movie like this, please tell me. I swear that this came to me in the middle of the night sometime.

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Male 526
Since this video didn`t really answer the question asked, and some people on here were speaking of aliens, I`m going to drop my theory on aliens (My friend says it`s off of a movie, but I`ve never seen said movie so if someone thinks of it please tell me).

One of the big problem scientists have with time travel is, "Why aren`t we seeing ourselves from the future right now?" My answer is, we are. Scientists say that the odds of aliens resembling humans at all are remarkably low, due to the whole enormity of the universe thing, so why are alien descriptions mostly humanoid? Aliens are an evolved form of human from the far future. Lack of sunlight, exercise, and likely food that occurs when floating about space nonstop (Earth has presumably exploded by the time these creatures come about) has led to aliens gray, blobby appearance. Their highly advanced medicine is the only thing that keeps them alive. <c>

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Male 20
Well aside from avioding the question entirely, I couldn`t even make out what he said before people began cheering.
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Male 2,605
Another, more recent example of people killing with a religious motive.
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Male 12,365
Your question applies equally well to religion:

What created your god(s)? What existed before them? How could they be created from nothing?

If you answer that your god(s) is/are eternal and therefore weren`t created, then surely you must consider the argument that the universe is eternal and therefore wasn`t created.

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Male 12,365
"I`m assuming that modern science believes that the Big Bang created the universe."

*In its current form* A key distinction.

"If so, what created the big bang if nothing was there before?"

Something was there before - a singularity. Which is really an "I don`t know what it is."

"Also, we know that matter is neither created or destroyed, only changed into different forms. So how could this Big Bang create matter and turn it into starts and galaxies and planets?"

Energy and matter are forms of the same thing, so matter can be made from energy (and vice versa).

The big bang theory isn`t an explanation of the origin of the universe. It`s an explanation of what happened afterwards. Maybe only a tiny fraction of a second afterwards, but afterwards.

Another answer to your question is that time was created with space, so there is no such thing as before the universe existed.

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Male 12,365
>>Can you find me an example of anyone who follows >>the faith of ID who believes that aliens are the >>Creator?

>I`m not quite sure, but isn`t Scientology based >on that?

Do Scientologist identify themselves as proponents of ID?

ID was devised by Christian creationists as a rebranding of Christian creationism when it became clear that their first attempt to corrupt science teaching in schools had failed.

I still think that in theory ID could be another religion, but in practice it`s Christianity.

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Male 12,365
Another analogy:

On a fair 6-sided dice, the chance of rolling a 6 10 times in a row is 1 in 60,466,176.

If a fair dice was rolled 3 times a minute, it would probably be about 38 years before 10 consecutive 6`s were rolled.

If a person in the dice-rolling room for *only* the 3 minutes 20s that it took for that sequence of 10 6`s to occur, they might well see it as spectacularly improbable. If they were a theist, they might well interpret it as divine intervention.

If they ignored all the other rolls of the dice over the decades.

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Male 12,365
sTuFFt:

My analogy didn`t get my point across, so I`ll try again.

The conditions for life seem highly improbable. For the sake of argument, I`ll pick a figure of one in a billion star systems.

If a person looks *only* at one star system and it has life in it, they might conclude that it`s so unlikely that it proves that the god(s) they believe in exist *because they already believe that*.

If, on the other hand, a person looked at a billion star systems and only one had life in it, that would just be as expected with those odds.

We can only really look at one star system and of course it has life in it - if it didn`t, we wouldn`t be here to talk about it. So by our very existence we`ve got an unrepresentative view on life and the universe.

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Male 2,605
"These mystical atheists you speak of who are always logical, always right, always scientific, and always cite their (always reliable) sources, are a greater imagining on your part than anything theistic God I have ever seen."

I`ve known some really stupid atheists in my recent lifetime, so this perception you have of me is erroneous and I`m marking it up as an ad hominem and a straw man.

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Male 2,605
"For you, there is only ever going to be a link when it suits you, even when it is the same style and source as your opponents."

It is not the same style or source. There is no tradition in the news of atheists committing violence against believers with specifically their religion as the motivator. An example of the contrary: The protests against the Danish cartoons depicting Mohammed. The motivation was the perceived insult to Islam (untie the religious connection if you can). How many embassies were burned out? How many protests involving stoning? How many deaths?

Now show me a similar example of atheist protests against religious people for having mocked atheism. Let`s see that.

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Male 72
Also, I have a question, I`m not using this in any argument or anything, but I`m just curious.


I`m assuming that modern science believes that the Big Bang created the universe. If so, what created the big bang if nothing was there before? Also, we know that matter is neither created or destroyed, only changed into different forms. So how could this Big Bang create matter and turn it into starts and galaxies and planets?

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Male 72
"Take a lottery, for example. It is extremely unlikely that you`ll win it. Does that mean that each lottery is rigged specifically for each winner, that someone decided that particular person would win?"

If you want to use lottery as an analogy, you could say that although it is not rigged for a particular person, it was created by someone (in essence, a "god" figure, if you will, just for example) with the intent that somone would win. Hopefully you caught what I meant, I confuse myself sometimes :P

"Can you find me an example of anyone who follows the faith of ID who believes that aliens are the Creator?"
I`m not quite sure, but isn`t Scientology based on that?

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Male 2,605
"You pluck out a verse out of context and claim it is the source of all ills in Christian countries."

A verse? As in a bible verse? Please link me to where I have done this. I have no such recollection. Besides, people don`t need a Bible to believe in God. That is to say that their beliefs are not necessarily always informed by the bible, which means I don`t resort to bible verses when I need to cite examples of misconduct on the part of religious people.

"Simultaneously, if Christians pluck out a verse of good you claim that biblical verses have no impact on any acts any people ever perform."

Again, the Bible doesn`t necessarily inform peoples` actions. Sure the Bible has good as it does bad, but as I don`t believe morality is derived from the Bible, this means essentially nothing.

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Male 72
"Can you find me an example of anyone who follows the faith of ID who believes that aliens are the Creator?"

I`m not quite sure, but isn`t Scientology based on that?

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Male 2,220
As for Lincoln...
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Male 2,220
I don`t think the church willing gave up its influence and allowed us freedom of choice. Its more a case of you can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time...
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Male 2,220
Wazpoopin9 : You are confusing religion with government, dude. Most of the time I don`t have a problem with the fairly common sense coda embedded within the key religions, its the dratting implementation that usually sucks. Same goes for a governance on pure intellectual principle.
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Male 70
atheists, we are truly sorry for the mistakes of the past weve done (ask yourself do we do those things now? and who reformed us?) but please remember that the freedoms you cherish (in which you *can* be like Mr Dawkins here and question the very existence of God)... please seek to know where do the freedoms come from? Not from man, but from God.

Im trying not to cause offence, but what about the amount of godless totalitarian atheistic regimes of the early 20th Century that killed millions... why do you not want to be held accountable for those? Why is it that the very thing that built the freedoms of your land is being thrown away? The very institution that guarantees your choice in either choosing or rejecting God?

And finally, what about the Altruism within Christianity... whether you belive there is a God or not... do not Christians do a trumultous amount of caring of the worlds needy?

Jesus Christ said to love all those including those who hate you... please remember that

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Male 70
ok ok ok... so if your an atheist... God bless you... i have no problem with you... i just wish you could see all the good due to Christianity in the world... yes, the Christians have made mistakes in the past, but who was it that reformed? were it people of other faiths, were it people who didnt believe in God, were it foreigners?

no, it was the Christianfolk themsleves, because they saw that what they were doing was not what Jesus wanted them to be doing. (one example i can think of is slavery - abolished by William Wilberforce in British Empire, and Abraham Lincoln in the US -- both due to their deep Christian faith)...

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Male 4,546
Maybe you`re thinking about this wrong Angillion.

I agree that ID in the US (and much of Europe) revolves around Christianity, but it doesn`t need to be that way.

Many ID proponents are also proponents because of their religious beliefs.

This is all in agreement with you I`d say, but maybe what Stufft is arguing is that it doesn`t need to be.

I`m sure you could structure and ID hypothesis/theory/argument which revolves around agnosticism, and therefore "ID" as an umbrella term is not Christian.

To give another example. "Communism" is not the same as "Chinese Communism", yet the latter is the only working model currently in practice.

It is far removed from what Marx described.

I think what you seem to be doing here is saying in practice only "X"(Ch.Comm/Ch.ID) works, so that is communism/ID.

What Stufft is saying is "Y"(Comm/ID) is the unadulterated description, so that is.

You`re just arguing terms I think.

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Male 12,365
"Maybe using the term "variable" was a bad choice of word. I meant that there are way to many things that are lined up in this universe to work together to have come from an explosion. If that makes sense... :P"

A logical fallacy.

Not forgetting the fact that no-one is saying the universe was caused by an explosion. The "big bang" of the theory wasn`t an explosion.

It is true that a chain of unlikely events has occured to make our existence possible. *If it hadn`t, we wouldn`t be here talking about how unlikely it is.* We are an unrepresentative sample.

Take a lottery, for example. It is extremely unlikely that you`ll win it. Does that mean that each lottery is rigged specifically for each winner, that someone decided that particular person would win?

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Male 12,365
To address the "but it might be aliens" argument: if you are postulating these aliens as the Creator, you are basically making them gods.

Can you find me an example of anyone who follows the faith of ID who believes that aliens are the Creator?

In fact, how about any follower of ID who does not believe the Creator is the Abrahamic god?

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Male 12,365
"If you`re trying to say that Intelligent Design is synonomous with Christianity, then you`re wrong."

In theory, it could be another religion. In practice, it isn`t.

"Intelligent Design is basically an agnostic view on our world."

No, it isn`t. Agnosticism is essentially not knowing and not claiming knowledge you can`t objectively support. ID is faith in a creator. That is not agnosticism, obviously.

"There are way too many variables in the universe for this all to come out of an explosion."

No-one is claiming that is what happened. Even if they were (and they aren`t), you have just made a statement of faith as if it were proven truth. Even if you weren`t (and you are), a lack of an explanation is not proof of god.

"The whole point is, just because you believe in intelligent design, it does not neccesarily mean you believe in the Christian God."

In theory, it could be another religion. In practice, it isn`t.

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Male 72
"Um, wouldn`t such a degree of variation actually correspond to an explosive origin?"

Maybe using the term "variable" was a bad choice of word. I meant that there are way to many things that are lined up in this universe to work together to have come from an explosion. If that makes sense... :P

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Male 3,631
Elementary objection to Atheism to be sure, but Dawkins FTW nonetheless.

"There are way too many variables in the universe for this all to come out of an explosion."

Um, wouldn`t such a degree of variation actually correspond to an explosive origin?

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Male 72
"You appear to have no idea what intelligent design is. It`s entirely religious. What`s more, it`s a specific religion - Christianity. "

If you`re trying to say that Intelligent Design is synonomous with Christianity, then you`re wrong. Intelligent Design is basically an agnostic view on our world. There are way too many variables in the universe for this all to come out of an explosion. Thus, the idea that some sort of being(s) has made us for some certain reason. That being said, this being may or may not be the Judeo-Christian God. It could be aliens. We could be a computer program, and we don`t know it. Maybe it is the Christian God. Maybe Thor gave a mighty swipe of his hammer and we were created.

The whole point is, just because you believe in intelligent design, it does not neccesarily mean you believe in the Christian God.

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Male 12,365
"1. thats not what im saying at all"

Then would you care to explain what meaning you think was contained in your statement?

"2. being close to, is not the same as actually doing."

They have *a working ribosome*. You could possibly call that life. It`s unlikely to take more than a year to do the rest and have undeniably created life from some bags of chemicals.

"3. i am a believer of intelligent design, although intelligent design does not base itself in religion and has nothing to do with God vs. no God it is relative. the universe, atoms, molecules all have intelligent design."

You appear to have no idea what intelligent design is. It`s entirely religious. What`s more, it`s a specific religion - Christianity.

You claim to believe, without any evidence at all, that a person created all life...and you don`t see that as faith in a god? It is faith and it is about a god - how on earth can that not be religious?

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Male 2,220
As for oceanbeast - intelligent design?

Oh for fecks sake.

The appendix is a big joke right? The vagus nerve that runs up and down a giraffes neck, just for laughs? Whales having vestigual legs, oh the hilarity!

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Male 2,220
Baalthazaq - I may an aethiest (in the roughest sense) but you do have a point with your `god of the gaps`. You can use theories to build good science, and you can push it ever outwards and downwards (if you know what I mean) but I don`t think science will ever get to the point where its all knowing. There will allways be some axiom - some leap of faith if you will.

Where we may differ though, is that I don`t see the need to have a god to bridge the gap. Its unkown, or unfathomable, miraculous even (as is anything as yet unknown), but I don`t think its the work of the god I was assigned as a kid.

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Male 55
Wrong about what? What did he say before?
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Male 1,195
I notice he didn`t actually answer the question...
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Male 4,546
Ocean: On your point 2:

Will you change your mind about whatever point you`re trying to make if they do it in the next 5 years?

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Male 549
anglion

1. thats not what im saying at all

2. being close to, is not the same as actually doing.

3. i am a believer of intelligent design, although intelligent design does not base itself in religion and has nothing to do with God vs. no God it is relative. the universe, atoms, molecules all have intelligent design.

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Male 21
AbImbroglio: It`s true he does not directly answer the question, but the answer is obvious to anyone (punishment depending on the religion that`d turn out to be true) - it really doesn`t need to be answered.
The way I understand it, the girl`s point is "If you`re wrong, you`re going to be punished. Why not play it safe and join a religion?", the answer is "Because even that wouldn`t make me any more safe, as no matter what religion I`d join, the danger would be the same.".
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Male 838
Oh, and using Kirk Cameron to represent the religious aspect is a touch unfair. That`s a bit like asking a high school basketball player to represent the NBA.
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Male 838
Ok, while I have no particular dog in this fight, I would like to point out that his entire argument there was a fallacy. Ad hominem "you`re another", to be precise. He entirely avoided the question, though the question, in this case, is pretty self-evident.
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Male 4,546
Although it does remind me of an old joke:

At some point in the future scientists decide that mankind has progressed so much, that they are as powerful as God.

So the scientists send an Ambassador to go and talk to him and tell him he is being made redundant (fired), and his services will no longer be required.

The scientist talks to God and God says "Fine, I tell you what, you make a human being out dirt, and I`ll be out of your hair, no severance package, no nothing".

Scientist says ok, and reaches down, scooping some dirt out of the ground.

God say "Hey, get your own damn dirt".
**************************************

I think this is actually a very good demonstration of what I think is the "God of the gaps" mistake.

God will always be at the beginning, not in the gaps. I think it really takes a caveman to suggest otherwise, with maybe some exceptions w/r domains specific to God.

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Male 4,546
Ugh, I actually agree with Angillion.

Stop making me do that! I feel violated.

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Male 12,365
"no scientist ever to this day has ever been able to sprout life where life did not exist, life to non life."

Two replies:

i) What makes you think that`s in any way relevant? You appear to be arguing that science in invalid unless scientists can create life. Which is a very strange argument.

ii) Several groups of scientists are close to being able to create life from scratch. Second genesis. One team can create a *working* ribosome from scratch. That`s most of the job of creating life from scratch done. By "from scratch" I mean typing the genes into a computer and having it use some bags of chemicals to create life with that genetic code.

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Female 327
Not necessarily.
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Male 549
no scientist ever to this day has ever been able to sprout life where life did not exist, life to non life. thats all im saying and im out dont wana get burned
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Male 795

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Male 12,365
"i no longer believe in one vengeful god that will damn you to hell for all eternity. but i still believe in the bible (which by the way never mentions Hell. that is a more modern invention)"

The word `hell` is more recent, but the idea of it isn`t. That vengeful god is also in the bible you say you believe in, in spades. Mass slaughter, punishment of innocents, etc.

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Male 1,399
Dawkins was simply trying to point out the absurdity of such a question. "What if you`re wrong?"

"What if YOU`RE wrong?" Then he went on to expose the fallacy.

How is he supposed to answer, exactly? It`s a stupid question! Why not use it to SOME value and make a point?

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Male 72
If you really want to know about what happens when we die, then let`s wait until we have the technology to bring cryogenically(sp?) frozen heads back to life. Correct me if I`m wrong, but when you give your body to a cryogenics lab, then after you die, they take your body to a lab and freeze you in the hopes that your body cells might still be living. If God is there (which I very much do believe he is, although I`m very open minded to other`s beliefs) then if the bodies are able to be revived, they will be nothing more than a lump of living matter. If there is a God, and he wants us to die at that point, then he would take our soul to heaven (effectively removing the thinking mind from the mortal body). Two scenarios. God exists, the body/head revived is a brain dead lump. No function at all. Lives via life support. A vegetable of science. God doesn`t exist, the possibility remains that we can be revived after being frozen. Athiest or Christian, think that over.
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Female 3,598
banning gay marriage or to stop teaching evolution in the schools is just plain ignorant. nobody probably cares, but my opinion of "God" is that he is a force, unseeable, that represents all that is good. the Good. i follow the Good of all Goods.
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Male 12,138
And to those posters who complain that they want less of these flame-wars and debates and such, and want more vids of f*cking kittens playing in a box, nutshots, and the like: Hey, guess what, we have them too, in abundance, on a daily basis. Don`t like the sound of the link? Don`t click it and then b*tch about it. In fact, I can think of few things in life easier than clicking on a link than *not* clicking on a link.

As I`ve said many times before, it`s not like you`re paying for this sh*t.

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Male 12,138
[quote]You`re good, davy. Nice and toasty in here still.[/quote]

Thanks Ani. I take pride in my work.

Nah, on a more serious note though, I do genuinely enjoy these kinds of debates. Not in a voyeuristic sadistic way, nor to make one group look silly, nor to score points, nor to score hits for the site (I don`t get paid, I don`t give a sh*t).

On the contrary, these kinds of debates bring out some of the most intelligent people on IAB, from both sides of the spectrum (on one side the likes of Baalthazaq and Crakrjak, on the other side the likes of Overmann, Angilion, Almightybob and catbarf to name a few). And I do mean "intelligent" sincerely, on both sides.

These kinds of posts are exactly the reason I signed up to IAB, which is why I like them. Baalthazaq knows what I mean - there is some warmth to be had from a flame-war, personally, like Baal, I enjoy them immensely.

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Female 3,598
well, i guess i`m an exception to the rule, i was raised VERY religiously. i went to church like, three times a week. i thought that it was my own opinion and i worked hard to make sure everyone i knew also knew about my religion. i was prominent in my church and had a (slight) leadership position there. it was not until i left the shelter of that church group that i realized there were other ways of thinking about the world and that just because what my parents taught me to be true was the only thing i had ever accepted it didn`t mean that i couldn`t be rational about it. so i started thinking for myself. and i came up with some different conclusions then what i`d been taught. i no longer believe in one vengeful god that will damn you to hell for all eternity. but i still believe in the bible (which by the way never mentions Hell. that is a more modern invention) because it does teach valuable life lessons that could potentially make life easier. but to use it for purposes like...
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Male 5
SO...I`m supposed to take things that haven`t happened yet into account? 1 in 4401?
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Female 4,447
You`re good, davy. Nice and toasty in here still.
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Female 864
http://xkcd.com/435/
Thanks Snazyguy ,gotta love xkcd .My boyfriend has this one taped up in his office :)
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Male 1,455
" This means there is a 1 in 4400 chance (a whole 0.0227272727%) that your religion is the right one."

Not true. Gods are always eternal, so the true religion might be one that doesn`t exist yet.

In the end, Pascal`s Wager is false and downright dishonest in intention- you shouldn`t choose your beliefs based on the idea of hedging your bets.

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Male 2,510
This interwebz argument is fapalishious!

*FAP FAP FAP*

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Male 5

Squareknot:

Wow.... I love how he answers the question with a question, kind of dancing around it like he doesn`t want to admit that he could POSSIBLY be wrong. All he had to say is, "Well, I guess I`d burn in hell, wouldn`t I?"

When the girl asked "What if you`re wrong" she was obviously referring to Christianity, and he replied that he was just as likely to be wrong about every other religion. http://www.adherents.com/ has information on 4400 religions. This means there is a 1 in 4400 chance (a whole 0.0227272727%) that your religion is the right one. Dawkins has an equal chance of having his head used as a cobblestone (see: viking) as going to hell.

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Male 12,365
"He didn`t answer, just mocked. I am an agnostic, but I do believe there is something. I have the same question, "What if you are wrong?" If a christian is wrong about believing in God, and there really is none, then it won`t matter when they die. If an atheist is wrong, then there might be a price to pay when they pass away. I think that is what the questioner was getting at."

If so, she was wrong. This has been addressed many times in this thread - Pascal`s Wager is riddled with logical fallacies, starting off with but not limited to a false dichotomy.

But I think his answer was incomplete and unsatisfactory.

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Male 12,365
"By the way, is Christianity a monotheist religion?
Christians believe in god and their Lord; Jesus Christ. (and God can also be said as "the Lord") Hence, 2 Gods, not monotheistic.

*sees dark clouds coming over his head* uhoh."

It`s 3. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The Christian trinity. But the 3 are 1. And 3. But also 1. Because they`re God, so they can do that.

It is a bit odd, but it is monotheism.

It also isn`t *essential* for Christianity, but other views were long ago suppressed as heresy.

Check this out for a Christian explaining the Christian mono-trinity thing:

http://www.christianity.co.nz/trinity1.htm

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Male 4,680
I want Richard Dawkin`s babies. Even if I`m male...
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Female 298
that really says a lot.. what if you`re wrong? well then you`ll burn in hell.. but if judeo christian type faiths are wrong then you could end up being reborn as a flour beetle or end up in hades or one with the universe or something else. perhaps you`ll just cease to exist entirely. Who knows. You dont. I dont. Its a mystery at present. Some people just have more conviction in their particular idea without proof. SO much conviction that they`ll try to get everyone else to believe it too.
the idea of believing in the religion with the most distasteful punishment for non belief (i`e hell. tormented by demons for all eternity) as a means of hedging your bets (you`re better off believing in our religion, if it turns out we`re wrong the outcome will be nothing like as bad as what happens to nonbelievers under our system)- is cheap and undermines the nature of belief in a religion in the first place. it really just says a lot about the underlying purpose of religion.
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Male 22
@Raberboom

What religion do you follow? As far as I`m concerned, my religion teaches me to be the best I can, and repent when I fall off the wagon. I`m not perfect and I never will be, and that is understood to be so. I guess you could say it`s taking away my free will by telling me not to rape and murder a woman and then go home to my wife, but I wouldn`t do that even if I were an atheist :\.

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Male 422
Win.
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Male 22
Wow.... I love how he answers the question with a question, kind of dancing around it like he doesn`t want to admit that he could POSSIBLY be wrong. All he had to say is, "Well, I guess I`d burn in hell, wouldn`t I?"
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Male 4,546
Incidentally, Overmann, part of my point was that the links Atheists often do make (if they do make them at all, which is demonstrably, through just drating counting, an UNUSUAL event), are spurious.

I could claim Atheists lack morality, and this clearly leads to more murders. I could claim that not having "thou shall not kill" in their system of beliefs, is demonstrated.

I could even more rightly demonstrate that much of China and Russia`s genocide was the result of trying to destroy religious groups.

However this is all unnecessary, when the argument I was mocking clearly used CORRELATION to demonstrate CAUSATION, and provided no additional details.

These mystical atheists you speak of who are always logical, always right, always scientific, and always cite their (always reliable) sources, are a greater imagining on your part than anything theistic God I have ever seen.

And I was around for the birth of the IPU.

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Male 74
this guy is so right
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Male 4,546
Baelzar:
Even if I agree with your statement, my premise isn`t flawed at all. I still didn`t choose my belief.

Does agreeing with you on every point actually make anything I`ve said wrong?

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Male 4,546
Overmann:

The problem with you comes that you don`t believe your own argument.

"Atheists claim religion is responsible for violence, usually accompanied with an example of a direct link between the two, as I`ve often cited."

Bullpoo.
You pluck out a verse out of context and claim it is the source of all ills in Christian countries.

Simultaneously, if Christians pluck out a verse of good you claim that biblical verses have no impact on any acts any people ever perform. "These are all common sense".

For you, there is only ever going to be a link when it suits you, even when it is the same style and source as your opponents.

"Usually accompanied by an example of a direct link"

Usually has a meaning jackass, count the posts on this forum WITHOUT a direct link. Count the generic throwouts of "religion causes all the worlds problems".

Usually? 1 in 100 if that. You didn`t even do it once in the thread in question.

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Male 101
I can`t stand when people answer a question with a question. All he had to say was "I`ll burn in Hell if I`m wrong about Christianity."
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Male 731
As an Apatheist, I have this to say:

...is this all IAB has become? Dumb pictures, "realistic physics" games, politics and religion debating?

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Male 112
I`m a Christian Islamic Hindi Buddhist with Neo-Pagan Zoroastrian Jewish tendencies. I just hope I`m covered.
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Male 833
"what`s the use of making people believe that they`re going to be buried under wormy ground and be rotten after a couple of years instead of giving them a hope to live by convincing them they will find happiness even if they had a sorrowful life and be rewarded someday somehow if they don`t hurt other people? okay then, let`s don`t believe in poo and kill ourselves if there`s nothing to enjoy and make other people suffer if we want just to have fun, yaaay! brillant idea!"


yes but following a religion sacrifices free will.
same statement for the "What if your wrong" people.

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Female 876
what`s the use of making people believe that they`re going to be buried under wormy ground and be rotten after a couple of years instead of giving them a hope to live by convincing them they will find happiness even if they had a sorrowful life and be rewarded someday somehow if they don`t hurt other people? okay then, let`s don`t believe in poo and kill ourselves if there`s nothing to enjoy and make other people suffer just to have fun if we want it that way, yaaay! brillant idea!
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Male 174
Atheists may be wrong, but what if we`re reincarnated instead because it was really the Buddhists that were right, or we end up in the afterlife with no riches or possessions because the ancient Egyptian religions were right? Atheists could be wrong, but that doesn`t mean they`re going to hell, there`s hundreds of different religions, any one of those could be right, not just Christianity.
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Male 38
Lol.
I`m a fan. Where`s his FB fangroup?
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Male 712
Let me answer preemptively the same question from an Atheist: If I`m wrong then life goes on for me. I still get up and go to work, I still collect a paycheck and unexplainable things that I don`t have the time to look into still happen in my life and I`m fine with that. I don`t require that a deity of any sort come into every aspect of my life 24/7. That would be sort of selfish and there are other people created by that deity that may need his/her/it`s help. If it doesn`t exist, though, I`m okay with that. I`m food for a physical furnace at the end of my life and everyone who was invited for the funeral gets to see the urn shot out of a cannon in the shape of a middle finger. I`m okay with that.

Now that someone with a belief system has answered the question in full, why couldn`t Dawkins do anything but oversimplify, make assumptions and then counter so defensively?

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Female 914
B00SH, in yo face! but seriously, he`s got a huge point that I think intuitively we can all agree with on some level. and then there are exceptions about people born in other countries and are taught the minority religion (i.e. born/raised in India and taught Catholic) but all in all, he`s right about whatever you`re taught from childhood most likely sticks. we have many examples where that`s not true and people convert or disregard religion entirely, but that`s ok, too. her question was just too vague to have any sort of support of ANYTHING: "what if you`re wrong?" then he`s wrong. but just like he said to her, "what if YOU`RE wrong?"
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Male 235
If Christians are wrong, then they`re just worm food when they die. If Atheists are wrong, they go to hell.
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Male 3,296
btw, the chick in the video got owned, whether religion is right or wrong hes right.
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Male 3,296
/btw, how did you find out santa wasnt real???
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Male 3,296
"Baalthazaq, your premise is flawed.
If you give me a child to raise, I can make that child believe anything. Where do you think most religion comes from? Spontaneous thoughts in somebody`s head?

Furthermore, even when the child grows up and learns to think critically (assuming they actually do, which is a stretch) they will STILL believe what I told them.

Why? Because they can`t prove otherwise, and because there`s a lot of other people who were taught the same thing to reinforce their irrational belief.

Belief may not be the child`s choice, but it was MY choice to make them believe"

if that was the case, we wouldn not be having that disscusion.

Its because of people like Decartes, pioneers at going agaisnt the flow, that we even have this discussion.

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Male 1,399
Baalthazaq, your premise is flawed.

If you give me a child to raise, I can make that child believe anything. Where do you think most religion comes from? Spontaneous thoughts in somebody`s head?

Furthermore, even when the child grows up and learns to think critically (assuming they actually do, which is a stretch) they will STILL believe what I told them.

Why? Because they can`t prove otherwise, and because there`s a lot of other people who were taught the same thing to reinforce their irrational belief.

Belief may not be the child`s choice, but it was MY choice to make them believe.

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Male 332
YoSoyNoob: What if I`m wrong about believing that there is a God? No consequence. What if your wrong about believing there is NOT a God? Big Consequence.

============================

You can expand that even further and say "What if you believed in the wrong god?"

I don`t keep up with number of religions on this planet, but...lets just say the odds aren`t in your favor buddy.

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Male 15
@scfg, epic picture, makes my day

also: richard dawkins took his part in making my day

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Male 4,290
He didn`t answer the question because it`s too vague. What if he`s wrong about what? About the Judeo-Christian God, or about Allah, or about Thor, or about Zeus, or about Apollo, or about Demeter, or about Ra, or about Quetzacoatl...


This list illustrates Dawkins` point very well. You can ask "What if you`re wrong?" about each and every deity on that list. They all have equal merit.

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Male 176
Quick ma! come look at the angry people!
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Male 795
DARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Male 1,929
THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY FIVE COMMENTS????

We really need to stop showing these things. At least not without stating the EXACT point to be discussed first. Everyone just goes off on one with these things.

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Male 2,605
"Was I trying to turn anything? Was it *my* argument?"

Yes. Atheists claim religion is responsible for violence, usually accompanied with an example of a direct link between the two, as I`ve often cited. You wanted to suggest their argument applies to them. But if you can`t draw the link between atheism and violence, or if the link doesn`t exist, you are not parodying their argument and are being dishonest and inadequate.

"I wasn`t ever going to. I was demonstrating (by copying it) that it was a poor argument. I clearly succeeded."

Copying it? Hardly. Why not? No direct link. Clearly? Not until you can demonstrate how the Saudi government is acting on anything other than religious impulse. Not until you can dismiss the link atheists can draw and you can`t.

My question is legitimate, and it continues to be until either you admit you don`t understand the argument as atheists use it, and how it differs from how you use it.

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Male 592
he didnt answer it though... he just returned the same question
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Male 424
He did answer it, he pointed out saying "what if you`re wrong" can be used for any argument...
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Male 394
Yes, it was a witty retort, but as said, he didn`t really answerthe question.

Also, how amusing that the discussion in the comments has transformed from religion vs atheism to a heated argument about rhetorics. Pathetic.

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Male 1,646
allthough i am athiest and i agree with him. he danced around the question and avoided answering it which is dumb. on a side note
look at all the arguing people ^.^
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Male 136
Dawkins = legend. Brilliant, brilliant answer. Obvious, but so well said. Take that, religion!
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Male 249
i dont believe in god but if he does exist why would he punish me? he gave me free will, i havent killed 6 million jews or anything like that, whats the problem?
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Male 35
"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

Bertrand Russel.

Believing in something out of fear of being wrong is not believing.

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Male 2,605
I`ll restate my question to remove any ambiguity.

"How exactly do you expect to turn such an argument on others when there is no reason to suspect atheism is the cause?"

To your post:

"Was I making an argument? Was I the instigator?"

Yes. What constitutes making an argument? Making an allegation and supporting it with data. What have you done? Suggested atheists should instead cite atheism as a cause for violence and researched a number like 63% of genocide. That is an argument. What you`re failing to do (deliberately or no) is draw the elusive direct link between atheism and violence sufficiently to convince atheists their own argument applies to them. In the case of atheists claiming religion is responsible for violence, at least the cases I have cited, religion was the direct culprit, usually on behalf of the Saudi religious police enforcing "morality" derived from Sharia Law.

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Male 122
RecycleElf...thanks for proving my point and trying to explain the purpose/meaning of my life. Personally, the purpose of my life is to try and make a positive difference in the lives of the people I meet and the world I live, but I suppose that`s probably retarded too.
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Male 7,378
All the people who complain about religious subjects on IAB (and yeah I include you CrakrJak) Remind me of this pie chart:
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Male 239
He didn`t answer, just mocked. I am an agnostic, but I do believe there is something. I have the same question, "What if you are wrong?" If a christian is wrong about believing in God, and there really is none, then it won`t matter when they die. If an atheist is wrong, then there might be a price to pay when they pass away. I think that is what the questioner was getting at.
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Male 776
seems like he dodged the whole idea of:

atheist right: yay?

atheist wrong-punished by whatever god happens to exist

religion right, but you beleive in the wrong one:depending on what is right, you face some consequences

religion right, yours is right: you are set!

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Male 4,546
For those of you wonder what I`m talking about w/r Overmann`s question.

He said (in this thread, 6 pages down from here I think) that I never answered a question he asked me in this thread. You may read the entire thread at your leisure and decide if that is the case for yourself.

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Male 56
kidz0r: no I don`t believe that everyone is immoral, I am immoral, and just because I believe in God doesn`t mean that all of the sudden I`ve become a perfect person and don`t do immoral things anymore. I am just trying to gain an understanding of his statement. And as far as religion, my beliefs coincide with my religion. I believe in God and Jesus, therefore I do go to church. I don`t necessarily just instantly believe what the church tells me to believe, hence free will. I have the choice to question whether it`s true or not. I don`t believe the Bible just because a certain religion told me to. I have questioned my faith and have reasons to believe it`s true. Therefore my religion is part of my belief. That`s why its hard for me to separate the two.
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Male 4,546
Still Overmann:
In particular I stated:
"You didn`t make an argument yet. You made a statement, devoid of argument, and then repeated examples, at least one of which I have already discussed.
Again, this is the tactic I mocked."

I repeat:
"This is the tactic I mocked"

Elaboration:
Mocked, parodied, copied.

Your question: "How did you expect to turn your non argument into one"

My answer:
I wasn`t ever going to.
I was demonstrating (by copying it) that it was a poor argument.
I clearly succeeded.

Finally:
I think I`ve done more than enough to answer your question.

I even joined IAB chat for the first time ever to see if I could explain better in real time, I was told by someone you sometimes appear so stayed a while for a couple of weeks.

The fact that my body and mind can only endure explaining for DAYS at a time rather than (weeks? months?) is I think a reasonable allowance for stopping.

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Male 37
@thor82:

Really simply explained: Religion makes you go to church, and pay them, in donations, the 10% rule, whatever. Belief is what you believe in, if you believe in god and jesus and the whole shebang doesn`t make you part of a religion, going to church and starting to belief what other people tell you, living to the (biblical) rules other people give you is making you part of a religion.
You can also start your own religion, if you want to. Even if it has weird ideas, like reading golden tablets from a hat.

I think what Overmann is trying to say is that he will raise his children with a good sense of moral values, or do you think everyone who doesn`t believe in a god is immoral? I will raise my children with knowledge of the main religions, if they choose to become religious it`s up to them, but I will not make them.

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Male 4,593
Beautiful, simply beautiful.
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Male 4,546
Overmann:
There is more than enough information, in my ~20? posts to you in the previous thread to figure out the answer to any questions you have on your own.

I also don`t ask questions which have assumptions built into them. "How did you expect to turn your non argument into one" is I assume the question we`re discussing?

Was I making an argument? Was I the instigator? Was I trying to turn anything? Was it *my* argument?

No, no, no and no. So drat all your assumptions and ask a legitimate question instead of one loaded to the brim with bullpoo.

Any child can read our conversation and come to the conclusion that I tried to explain this to you for far longer than I should be expected to reasonably endure.

It is my fault if I ignored you, but after 10 attempts (loooong attempts) at getting you to understand, your failing to do so becomes less and less my fault.

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Male 2
lots of people for 100s of years have needed something to lead them and tell them what is right and what is wrong because they dont have or dont want to choose for themselves. for them it keeps them focused and it seems to bring comfort into an uncertain world. some people are thinkers and some are followers. thats just life. I dont try to convince christains that there is no god. but they sure bust my balls trying to convince me that there is. cant we just all get along...................
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Male 22
@ProXLaw

That`d be WAY too easy. As a whole, our species likes to find absolutes, and we will settle or nothing less.

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Male 4,546
Ok:

Angillion:
You`re just expanding the table even further.

Musuko:
I`m NOT Christian.
I was merely explaining a fallacy.
I also gave a post already (this will be the third), explaining that belief is not a choice, and that is the main problem with the argument "Why don`t you believe".

Overmann:
... what the hell? ... (Cycles through thread).
Sigh.

Ok:
1) "Essentially the girl has the arrogance to assume she thought of something so basic and Richard hasn`t."

She said: "This is probably the most simplest question for you to answer but..."

You need to reign in your indignation.

Next post coming for Overmann`s Question.

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Male 56
Overmann: So how is my religion different then my belief. Aren`t they interconnected? Also, if you are for children coming to their own conclusions, does that mean when you have them that you will not teach them any view, whether it be atheistic or not? I believe in free will, but I also believe that it`s important to teach a child moral values. I am not going to force my child to believe anything, as you can`t with anyone. But that doesn`t mean I am going to ignore my responsibility as a parent. I am just very intrigued by that statement and need further explanation.
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Male 3,619
ProXLaw

That was a seriusly retarded thing to say?

What is the meaning of life?
I think the meaning of life is to figure out the meaning of life. thats why we ask, its our purpose.

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Male 122
blah, blah, blah, God, blah, blah, blah, Atheism, blah, blah, blah... why can`t we accept the unknown? Why do we have to have a label for every damn thing? Why can`t humans accept that the truth is unknown? It seems foolish to commit to anyone or anything claiming they have the answers. We`re still a bunch of children fumbling in the dark.
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Male 73
Why has IAB become a place of religious flame wars... each to their own, let people have their own opinions, and drop it. still think its a bit "childish" that these keep getting posted on here, KNOWING what its gonna start, which aint too bad once in a while, but seriouslyt, this has gott ahave been the 3rd or 4th "religious flame war" in the past week...
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Male 2,605
"that pic below has Albert Einstein listed as an Athiest when he was definitely not. Agnostics FTW!"

Einstein didn`t have a personal god, therefore he was atheist. At most he could have been considered spiritual, but does that still count when one is `spiritual` about nature? It seems to contradict the term.

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Male 2,605
Hey BAALTHAZAQ! Hello, over here! I`m still waiting for an answer to my question. I remember very well the occasions when I`m mistaken so I`m not letting this go easily.

"A true atheist wouldn`t care enough to hate God or religion."

You`re ignoring the larger picture. We don`t hate God any more than we don`t believe in him or it, but religion is not the same as belief; it`s an institution, one that violates our own value system. For example, I as an atheist cherish free thought and children coming to their own conclusions, and am therefore against parents bringing their kids to church or the church trying to butt in to science curriculum. I care about religion to the degree that I care about the direction of the human species and our emancipation from the darker, more embarrassing corners of our imagination.

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Male 108
This is a debate that will never be settled. It is like trying to debate which is better, american football or soccer. BTW - that pic below has Albert Einstein listed as an Athiest when he was definitely not. Agnostics FTW!
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Male 56
So Matt, what your saying is that religious people do not have the capacity or the willingness to decide what they believe and why?
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Male 37
By the way, is Christianity a monotheist religion?
Christians believe in god and their Lord; Jesus Christ. (and God can also be said as "the Lord") Hence, 2 Gods, not monotheistic.

*sees dark clouds coming over his head* uhoh.

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Male 37
@Angilion
I don`t say "I have no god" I just said, I neither deny nor accept there is a god.

It could still be Atheist if you take the Greek philosophy; if he believes in anything else we believe, he`s an Atheist. But then again, I`m going with the first dictionary explanation: "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."
I don`t deny it, nor accept it.

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Male 2,220
madest: nice.
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Male 2,220
"so we all believe what we were brought up to believe? does he realize there are christians in india too?
he uses the logic of a child."

Like when you try and explain to a little kid that Santa Clause doesn`t exit you mean?

His point is that you believe what you are indoctrinated to believe, mostly thats what you`re parents teach you. Thats the bit I don`t get with intelligent religous people, why they haven`t questioned their own beliefs, maybe the emotional investment is just too much.

Anyway, to the point in hand - I thought buddhism was *the* cover your bases faith?

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Male 2,850
Baalthazaq

So your argument for being Christian is that Christianity has the worst punishment for not believing in their religion?

Very well, I am starting a new religion; if you don`t believe that my left sock is the divine incarnation of the supreme being, then you will be damned to spend eternity suffering torments twice as bad as the Christian hell.

My religion now should be the logical choice, shouldn`t it?

Support my religion and Christianity turns out to be right: punishment by hell.
Support Christianity and my religion turns out to be right: punishment twice as bad as hell.

I await your conversion.

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Male 12,365
"However: This response isn`t all that fair. Assuming all interpretations vary in some small way shape or form, you could arguably cover 4.5 Billion out of 7 billion interpretations of religion simply by being a Monotheistic follower of any of the Abrahamic religions. "

That`s true, but there are numerous variations on those religions, especially in Christianity. It has been common for followers of one variation to proclaim another to be heresy (and often murder them for it). Being a heretic is deemed worse than being an unbeliever.

Maybe the correct religion is one of those now-dead "heresies" and all current followers of Abrahamic religions will be condemned as heretics and sent to a hell worse than that for unbelievers.

No way of knowing until death.

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Male 1,365
Energy can neither be created nor destroyed....the rest is all subjective.
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Male 12,365
"I`m not an Atheist btw, I don`t deny nor accept there is a god/are gods, if you think I`m an Atheist, look it up in a dictionary."

If you look it up in an accurate dictionary, you`ll find that it isn`t as clear-cut as you think. You meet one of the definitions of `atheist`, the one that most atheists use - you don`t believe in gods (or an afterlife, or any of that religious stuff). `atheist` literally means `without a god`. By that definition, if you don`t have a god you`re an atheist.

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Male 12,365
"A true atheist wouldn`t care enough to hate God or religion. These people that hate God or religion are actually angry agnostics, But they won`t admit it."

Unfortunately, you don`t get to decide what other people think.

An atheist couldn`t hate any god, since they don`t believe any god exists.

An atheist can hate religion, because religion does exist and is entirely about people.

In any case, I think you`re mistaking "disagree with", "dislike" and "hate", perhaps deliberately in an attempt to denigrate those who disagree with you, claim the moral high ground and claim the power of pretending to be a victim of irrational prejudice.

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Male 801
Check and mate!
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Male 12,365
"The internet is for shoving things in peoples faces? "

There are websites for that :)

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Male 7,378
My 1000th post
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Male 2,850
CrakrJak

"If you believe there is no God, Why would you bother wasting energy hating God or religion ? Why wouldn`t you instead attempt to peacefully co-exist with those of differing beliefs"

Because the former is getting in the way of the latter.

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Male 156
" Isn`t that what the internet`s for Dogboy?"

The internet is for shoving things in peoples faces?

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Male 264
all that I take away from this is that the question "what if you`re wrong?" isn`t really appropriate considering what he was talking about. Saying that he is wrong implies that the opposing side would be right. In this case the opposing side is theism of any kind (poly, mono, w/e), so all she is saying is `What if it is right to have a "religion"?` Beyond that, not believing in something isn`t any more right than believing in something and vice versa.

Truth-seeking atheists and religious folk alike, instead of bickering, should recognize that materialism is more of a threat to both than the numbers `the other side` has in its ranks.

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Male 383
i like his point. kinda like the ending of a movie i saw yesterday... we`re just scared of the unknown.
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Male 37
@Joey71827349879172364
Do you really think that if there was a god, he/she would bother with "he/she didn`t believe in me" When you lived a good life, supported others etc.

I simply don`t believe in living a life now that would give me access to heaven. Why is it impossible for religious people to accept that I live my life as it is my only chance. I want to do everything, after I die there is nothing, no suffering, no heavenly happiness etc, simply nothing, I won`t notice cause I`m dead.
Religious people are, in my eyes, people who are afraid of "nothing/nothingness" and people who don`t understand "nothing/nothingness".

This life is your only chance, make something of it.

(I`m not an Atheist btw, I don`t deny nor accept there is a god/are gods, if you think I`m an Atheist, look it up in a dictionary. Call me Secular Humanist)
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Male 28
Isn`t that what the internet`s for Dogboy?

In this video, Dawkins is just trying to sell his book. She could ask the question of anyone and there`s no answer really. Ask a priest or a rabbi.
I read the God Delusion and it`s pretty good btw.

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Male 174
.... He didn`t answer the question, he just repeated it back to her.
Truth is if she is wrong she has not got as much to loose than he has if he is wrong.

But totally agree with Dogboy76

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Male 156
Meh. Believe what you want to believe. Just don`t go around shoving it in everyone elses face.
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Male 2,510
there is no God and your idiotic human ideals are laughable!

- Bender.

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Male 4,546
Nidonemo:
I don`t think that`s fair. I spent years on Infidels.org because they challenged my beliefs. I find people challenging my beliefs fun (though I don`t always show it. :))

Also, she may have been an Atheist. "How do you answer this question" does not mean "I am posing this question", it`s part of the reason I got annoyed at the title.

He decided she was a Christian, she made no claims.

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Male 4,546
Lazyme:
I already provided the answer I felt was most suitable.

Quote:
"Incidentally, the better answer (better because it doesn`t just expand the Pascal`s Wager table, but actually defeats it), is that belief is not a choice."

Full post is a few down from this one. Should still be on the same page.

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Male 17,511
"I don`t even know what to say to that... lol."

Let`s be perfectly honest here. If you believe there is no God, Why would you bother wasting energy hating God or religion ? Why wouldn`t you instead attempt to peacefully co-exist with those of differing beliefs, Instead of trying to raise their ire ? Hate is not productive, It can only be destructive.

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Male 328
"A true atheist wouldn`t care enough to hate God or religion."

I don`t even know what to say to that... lol.

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Male 17,511
Problem is Baalthazaq, That I believe that most people that call themselves atheists are in fact just disgruntled with God. Hating God is not being an atheist.

A true atheist wouldn`t care enough to hate God or religion. These people that hate God or religion are actually angry agnostics, But they won`t admit it.

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Male 10,440
\/ Interesting thought Baalthazaq, but it doesn`t change it from being a loaded question that can`t be answered. If you think it can, then, what should his answer have been?
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Male 9,305
...if it`s a meeting of Atheists why did she go?

I don`t attend meetings that have the opposite of what I enjoy, that`s just a waste of my time. I`d rather attend a meeting of people that share my interests where I have the opportunity to make friends rather than sit through someone speaking on a subject I don`t even agree with.

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Male 237
"religion is dumb and it`s a waste of time/life. only a fool would believe it. seriously, read the bible, if you have any sort of intelligence whatsoever you will see just how absurb and contradictory it all is. plus, christians worship an evil god. peace out."

They see me trollin`, they hatin`...

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Female 149
Hahahahaahahahhahasflkdjslf;safas "most simpleist". Dawkins is awesome.
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Male 4,546
Just expanding on my first point, lets assume there are just two religions + atheism, for simplicity:

Christianity, Taoism, Atheism.

Pascal`s Wager Remains:
Christian is correct: Heaven. (Infinite good)
Atheist is correct: Nothing. (Neutral)
Christian is incorrect: Nothing.
Atheist is incorrect: Hell. (Infinite bad)


Now what Dawkins says here is what about additional beliefs.

Atheist/Christian is wrong about Taoism:
Nothing, they have no afterlife.

Lets keep going:
Judaism doesn`t have a Hell.
Vadic Hinduism has no Hell.
Some hells are temporary.
Some (more than not) religions are act based, not faith based.
Athena apparently doesn`t give a poo if you believe in her, so long as you don`t challenge her to a weaving competition. (Lookup Arachne)

So on and so forth. Belief is a very Christian thing, though the philosophy has leaked into many other cultures, it is rarely the cornerstone of religion.

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Male 4,546
If that was his better answer I think he has since improved.

As I`ve said before, hiding behind science, or the American flag, or religion, or whatever, and hijacking it for your own needs makes you not just "incorrect", or "mistaken", or "badly worded" as he is now.

It makes you scum. The worst scum it is possible to be. It is a disgusting aftereffect of every despicable core quality it is possible for a human being to have.

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Male 153
he didn`t even answer it...that was stupid.
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Male 216
In an interview he did a while back he was asked the same question, he handled it much better then imo. He said that if he is wrong, and all the science behind him turns out to all just be a bunch of bs, he said that he would hope that god would be forgiving enough to accept that he was skeptical and not a believer given all the evidence against him. Given that everyone makes god out to be this all understanding and forgiving god.
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Male 601
"belief is not a choice"

That`s correct, but at the same time incorrect. You cannot force yourself to believe something just compulsively, that is true. But you can choose the people you associate with, and what ideas you expose yourself to--these are typically the things that shape our beliefs, and so in that way we do have a little say in what we believe. Although I`m sure you were implying the former, and in which case you are correct.

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Female 723
Thank you IAB!

I am refreshed to hear all of these responses, pointing out the blatancy of his avoidance. His response to "Why don`t you believe in God" is no better than most religious responses to "Why do you believe in God". Honestly, there is no good "logical" or "philosophical" answer for either...

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Male 4,793
religion is dumb and it`s a waste of time/life. only a fool would believe it. seriously, read the bible, if you have any sort of intelligence whatsoever you will see just how absurb and contradictory it all is. plus, christians worship an evil god. peace out.
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Male 216
OH wow! I know that guy. I actually read The God Delusion.
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Male 61
OBVIOUSLY there are no Christians in India or Denmark or in Central Africa.

And technically, by the same logic of regional beliefs and the statement of "You happened to be brought up in America...", then wouldn`t all Americans be Christians?

His answer wasn`t the least bit satisfying to me, it was too generalized, and I got the feeling that he was evading the question.

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Male 772
"Typical Atheist answer to a tough question.."

It`s not exactly an easy thing for even a devout follower to say what would surely happen to them if what they believed wholeheartedly was right was actually wrong. The lack of a retort on his answer says most people probably would have said the same thing, though thats probably pushing it I admit. Regardless, extending the question to apply to not just him looked so much better than "Next question please."

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Male 17,511
Typical Atheist answer to a tough question.. Don`t answer the question, Divert with other multiple questions that would take too long to respond.

This was no better than an elementary school child`s attempt at avoidance. It`s like trying to nail jello to a wall.

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Male 4,546
Incidentally, the better answer (better because it doesn`t just expand the Pascal`s Wager table, but actually defeats it), is that belief is not a choice.

I suspect the reason Dawkins might not bring that up is he often (contradictorily) claims it is a choice.

For example, stop believing in your pants, just for 20 minutes. Can you actually do it? I find it impossible. Similarly, with temporarily believing that my cat has an extra head.

If he`s wrong it doesn`t matter. He didn`t choose not to believe, and you can`t make him believe it just because it would be good for him.

At best he could pretend to believe, at which point I`m fairly sure God would figure it out.

This is different however, from choosing to be open minded, or choosing to listen, and so on. Arrogance, and often ignorance, is a choice.

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Male 551
the internet is a dangerous place...
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Male 610
i like this. he answered a straightforward question with a straightforward answer. it`s so annoying when atheists and Christians get all butthurt that the other side disagrees
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Male 1,381
so we all believe what we were brought up to believe? does he realize there are christians in india too?

he uses the logic of a child.

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Male 4,546
Ok, 223 posts is a little late even for me to get into this.

However:
1) What exactly of Freud is proven through a CAT scan?
2) I`m a Freud fan, and even I don`t think this is plausible. "Most of his theories" don`t lend themselves to being defined by cat scans.

Also, as I`ve said before, this is Pascal`s Wager. Pascal`s wager is bad argumentation. (Having said that it is mathematically sound, just not in context).

However: This response isn`t all that fair. Assuming all interpretations vary in some small way shape or form, you could arguably cover 4.5 Billion out of 7 billion interpretations of religion simply by being a Monotheistic follower of any of the Abrahamic religions.

Worshiping "the Juju" has you covered for what? 100?

Also, why is this Christianity vs Atheism?
I have given smarter answers, to dumber questions. Does that mean religion is winning? Or does that only work the other way round?

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Male 388
he is explaining why its a silly question to ask
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Male 14
true, he didn`t really answer the question directly but at least his response was better than "oh we weren`t meant to know, it`s god`s will and we shouldn`t question him."
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Male 674
Oh, and prime "all I could say is drat liberal arts. drat it up the ass"...

Everything has its place in the world, so you can take your hierarchy of value in the sciences and various fields of study, and blow it out your ass.

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Female 4,447
Oh snap! And that, my dears, is why I`m agnostic.
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Male 485
lol @ prime you would link that
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Male 674
/me sits in the bleachers of Buddhism and noms on some popcorn.
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Male 601
snazyguy,
exactly.
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Male 46
From experience taking all of those AP classes isn`t so difficult because what you learn transcends anything else going on in highschool.
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Male 601
"A recent Times article said that most of Freud`s theories are being proven by CAT scans Pet Scans etc."

I didn`t say Freud`s theories were false, just that they are generally deemed as irrelevant to psychology and complicate fields like developmental psychology.

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Male 7,933
"i think Freud was right.... about his own mother that is."

www.instantrimshot.com

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Male 7,933
last year i had 1 science class and no math classes. I was being a little rebel against the real courses....all I could say is drat liberal arts. drat it up the ass. I miss the math and science and poo
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Male 833
i think Freud was right.... about his own mother that is.
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Male 601
I`m currently taking 6 AP courses (I know it`s insane), and I took 4 last year in 11th grade, and I can tell you that the liberal sciences (Psych, Art History, etc) are very important to developing an accurate opinion of society. If you restrict yourself to mere math and equations, then you may as well forget about living in the real world where the ways in which people act, think, and feel are just as important as the empirical facts.
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Male 46
Math wins. You know it`s the universal language of genius!
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Male 7,933
Snazyguy....that is the best comic I have ever seen in my life.
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Male 353
well he didn`t really answer the question... but that`s ok
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Male 46
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Male 7,933
"And if you read the Barron`s study guide, you`d know that much of Freud said is disputed among psychologists as being irrelevant. "

A recent Times article said that most of Freud`s theories are being proven by CAT scans Pet Scans etc.

No disrespect to Barrons though, great study guide. I had the princeton one, never used it

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Male 601
Psychology may not involve mathematics or chemistry, but the connections that can be drawn from learning the mannerisms of humans and the mind applies to just about every field of science. I scored a 5 on my test too (because its one of the easiest AP courses), but unlike you, I found it very interesting. And if you read the Barron`s study guide, you`d know that much of Freud said is disputed among psychologists as being irrelevant.
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Male 833
im a he, and yeah he doesnt ever answer the questions.
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Male 7,933
"Bio is for those who aren`t good enough for Physics or Chemistry, but are better than psychology."

Ok anyone can do psychology. My friend took the AP test without studying or without taking the class and passed it. If its liberal arts related, its easy to do.

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Male 689
wait, he never directly answered her question
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Male 46
Time for a comic!
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Male 7,933
"Right because with your extensive knowledge in all these categories you can dictate which sciences are more important than others?"

Yes

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Male 713
"Social sciences are for those who aren`t good enough for real science.

Bio is for those who aren`t good enough for Physics or Chemistry, but are better than psychology."

I hope this a joke, and if so it`s lame

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Male 833
"Social sciences are for those who aren`t good enough for real science.

Bio is for those who aren`t good enough for Physics or Chemistry, but are better than psychology."

Right because with your extensive knowledge in all these categories you can dictate which sciences are more important than others?

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Male 833
see thelonious you have the right idea, we all as a race just need to admit we dont have the what started everything, and just live on with the knowledge we can actually prove rather than far fetched ideas.
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Male 7,933
Social sciences are for those who aren`t good enough for real science.

Bio is for those who aren`t good enough for Physics or Chemistry, but are better than psychology.

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Male 46
That science is a spy!
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Male 833
sorry but i didn`t see anything resembling a joke in there mr.comedian.

and you didnt answer anything or show how all of bio and psychology is a lie, im waiting for something of substance here mr nobel prize in all sciences.

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Male 3,310
Somehow, I think it`s not either of these two extremes. Yet people keep pointing to them like they sound sane.

1) The universe was created by a being that sits around in non-time-space and decided he needed company but also likes to punish people for not doing exactly what he told them, tah-dah

2) The universe just popped into existence from nothing and kept growing and here we are, tah-dah

Call it an irrational gut feeling, if you really need to quantify that way, but I think people that adhere to either of these "strict" doctrines are a bit crazy/obsessed.

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Male 46
Psychology attempts to use the scientific method on very obvious trends in society and life in general. I don`t think it`s right to trash my favorite class dude. I`m sorry I decided this post might hold more importance than sleep. lol
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Male 7,933
"so your taking one thing you learned and saying since it isnt true, everything we know today, EVERYTHING, about psychology is false... because of course a teen lad like yourself is WAY more knowledgeable then all the gained knowledge of human psyche put together over the years."

Who gang banged on your bacon, no one here could take a joke.

What I`m saying is that respectable scientist laugh at those liberal art "sciences".

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Male 833
so your taking one thing you learned and saying since it isnt true, everything we know today, EVERYTHING, about psychology is false... because of course a teen lad like yourself is WAY more knowledgeable then all the gained knowledge of human psyche put together over the years.
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Male 7,933
"Well what would you term psychology since apparently you haven`t taken it. Magical voodoo poo that god makes happen in your head?"

I took AP Psych and got a 5. I can tell you its the biggest BS ever. "Freud hypothesized that the experiences in your child hood affect your personality later on in life" NO dratING poo

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Male 833
Well what would you term psychology since apparently you haven`t taken it. Magical voodoo poo that god makes happen in your head?
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Male 7,933
"i would have to agree Mr.boredfjord. he sounds as bad as baptists, saying all scientists are lying to us for their own secret agenda."

Keyword, science.

Since when is psychology a science? Thats glorified philosophy

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Female 4,028
Exactly. What if you`re wrong?
Since no one side can prove the other wrong, it`s just plain silly to insist that you`re right.
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Male 833
"Everything you learn in bio is a lie. Same with environmental science, psychology, etc."

...apparently it`s a lie that cells divide. And the functions of the hippocampus, amygdala, and the limbic system? LIES! This is the drating stupidest thing I`ve ever seen someone say on IAB, bar none. NONE.

i would have to agree Mr.boredfjord. he sounds as bad as baptists, saying all scientists are lying to us for their own secret agenda.

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Male 7,933
"...apparently it`s a lie that cells divide. And the functions of the hippocampus, amygdala, and the limbic system? LIES! This is the drating stupidest thing I`ve ever seen someone say on IAB, bar none. NONE."

Yes it is hippie liberal art major.

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Male 833
"What I`m saying is that sin is not and never is ok, and nothing guarantees you access to heaven. But what I`m saying is that repenting implies a change in behavior. So if a sin is committed and you do repent later (meaning doing everything to fix the problem and working with those that were harmed or something to that extent) that goes a long way."

so yes npdarren, according to him as long as you repent later it will help cover up what ever you did.

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Male 928
"Everything you learn in bio is a lie. Same with environmental science, psychology, etc."

...apparently it`s a lie that cells divide. And the functions of the hippocampus, amygdala, and the limbic system? LIES! This is the drating stupidest thing I`ve ever seen someone say on IAB, bar none. NONE.

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Male 3,310
Man, he got pissy
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Male 833
"Everything you learn in bio is a lie. Same with environmental science, psychology, etc."

Citation needed.

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Male 601
well, I was just working off of my Godfather stereotypes in which they`d kill, then repent, then kill some more...
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Male 12,138
Also, I `d like to say, just as science hasn`t explained the exact biochemistry of molecular mitosis by splitting of DNA strands, so has Primetimekin not yet explained to his parents that he is in fact gay.

Neither of these things are to be condemned. They just have to take some time to figure themselves out.

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Male 46
Group think is at work here. It`s okay this was a lot of fun. My first flame war. :DDD Unfortunately, my opinions only matter to myself here on IAB. The known/unknown honestly is fun to discuss and argue over. But sleep pounds on the noggin and sleep looks really good right now. If, "What if your wrong?" is still a viable question then think about it.
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Male 7,933
"Are you implying that because the priest repented, he`s guaranteed access into heaven? Does that mean that it`s okay to commit sins in life as long as you repent later?"

No that was an answer to a question someone asked me about 5 pages ago.

What I`m saying is that sin is not and never is ok, and nothing guarantees you access to heaven. But what I`m saying is that repenting implies a change in behavior. So if a sin is committed and you do repent later (meaning doing everything to fix the problem and working with those that were harmed or something to that extent) that goes a long way.

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Male 7,933
"Please tell me if what I learned in Bio last week is wrong,"

Everything you learn in bio is a lie. Same with environmental science, psychology, etc.

If its not Physics or Chemistry it doesn`t matter.

Now Biochemistry just makes me scream....why combine something so terrible with something so amazing.

P.S. drat YOU PUNNET SQUARE!

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Male 601
>Primetimekin

Are you implying that because the priest repented, he`s guaranteed access into heaven? Does that mean that it`s okay to commit sins in life as long as you repent later?

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Male 7,933
"What can I say? Call me out on this, but it`s like saying "I`m not Gay, but I do have a relationship with my boyfriend Timothy". "

By the way, that is a 100% factual statement.

Davy is gay and is having a relationship with Timothy, we call him Tim.

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Male 7,933
"where is God`s forgiveness that was just so easily given to the priest, and why can`t he give it to the atheist? "

Because an atheist went their whole life not trying to repent. If lets say at the last few moments of life, they regret being an atheist, then that would be actual repent. But repenting after you see God wouldn`t quite work the same

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Male 601
I don`t mean to sound like a textbook, but what causes cells to behave as they do IS explainable. Please tell me if what I learned in Bio last week is wrong, but much of what cells do is a result of polymer structures coiling and folding onto each other due to hydrogen bonds between the various bases of the nucleic acids. If you want me to elaborate even more, I gladly will.
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Male 12,138
[quote]That the very fabric of the cell is governed by the unexplainable. [/quote]

Mate. I`m off to work now, but take this to bed with you, because this is very, VERY important. Not trying to be condescending, not trying to score points. Seriously man, you need to drop words like "unexplainable" and replace that with "not explained yet". I promise, you`ll have a more fulfilled and fulfilling life.

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Male 46
What exactly instigates such a process, it`s probably in the nucleolus somewhere but what if I`m wrong. :D That the very fabric of the cell is governed by the unexplainable.
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Male 12,138
[quote]You sound like my textbook npdarren. Where on the DNA tells a zygote to replicate muscle or bone. This is a mystery to scientists[/quote]... etc etc etc.

Snazyguy, Dude, we`re working on it. And before you jump on the "THEREFORE GOD WINS!" pish, do yourself a favour, and don`t. Learn some humilty, as Religion espouses. We scientists start on a platform of "we don`t know yet, but we`re going to try our damnedest to find out". Please tell me what is wrong with that, for I don`t see it.

And in response to your (frankly weird) earlier statement of "I`m not religious at all, no, but I do have a relationship with God/Jesus."...

What can I say? Call me out on this, but it`s like saying "I`m not Gay, but I do have a relationship with my boyfriend Timothy".

If having a relationship with Jesus ain`t being religious, then taking it up the arse from Tim every night ain`t being gay. I say different.

Just my take on it.

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Female 15,763
"Actually Opie your not wrong, I`m just right. :D"

I give up.

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Male 833
"Actually Opie your not wrong, I`m just right."

and you say your not like most christians?

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Male 601
"much more abundance between two very intimate lovers than when masturbating or even answering a booty call."

That can be attributed to psychology. I do not know if you have taken psychology, but one of the most fundamental principles of psych. is that "everything biological is simultaneously psychological", which leads me to my conclusion that the reasons more of the chemical release for a loved one might be because of familiarity and/or other psychological responses. Not because love is some intrinsic, spiritualistic feature that doesn`t manifest itself in the human conscience.

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Male 46
Actually Opie your not wrong, I`m just right. :D Also, I`d like to believe that my view of Christianity is much more open than most brim-stone and fire Christian though that is a part of it too. I tend to linger towards moderate pursuits and ideas.

So... Yay, for hugs.

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Male 11
Right, so....there are Jews at the bottom of the sea?

M`kay. ^_^

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Male 833
how did we get into discussing biology and genetics?
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Male 601
"Where on the DNA tells a zygote to replicate muscle or bone."

It`s not a matter of "where", like I said; cell splitting is an emergent property, and if you have forgotten what that means-it means that capabilities of an organism only exist when the parts that make up the whole are assembled correctly. I like the bicycle analogy: if you put all the parts that consist a bicycle (e.g two wheels, tires, a chain, some gears, etc.) into a box, do you then have a bicycle? No, all you have are the parts of the bicycle, but when assembled correctly you have a functioning system.

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Male 46
I do talk to God. Anyways, I`d like to point out that oxytocin, a pleasure stimulating hormone, is in much more abundance between two very intimate lovers than when masturbating or even answering a booty call.

Yes we are built to perpetuate the human race but when you look deep inside you find that Love is key.

And those chemical messenger, what do you think: magic?

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Male 309
the only reason lust leads to problems (other than std`s, use a condom kids, is that we have set up rules in society to make it so. Its taboo to sleep with whoever you want in society because of religion. with that removed so is most of the negative impacts of a sex drive
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Male 833
yay hugs for all!
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Male 486
I say we all just give each other a big old bear hug. ;-)
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Male 309
No, industry cant be managed healthily. thats what communism tried to do. think about it this way, if toothbrushes were declared free by the US gov, do you think colgate would continue to make them and give them away? to ensure the dental hygene of the country?
or would they move into a different market where they could make money? without the posibility and incentive of huge profits, there is no reason to innovate, improve, or change.
noones going to just present you with a tooth brush unless they believe they are getting something out of it too.

what makes a girl beautiful to you? if you just saw a girl walking down the street in a dirty ripped up sweatshirt youd have a totally different reaction than if she was wearing short shorts and a tank top, had her hair and makeup done, etc.

again we could all just sit around and look at eachother saying how pretty we look, and the human race would die out, or we could do what were biologically programmed to do and make some babi

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Female 15,763
Snazy, if the broad scope of things is that your opinion of Christianity is the objectively correct one... then yeah, I suppose I have failed in that sense.
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Male 46
You sound like my textbook npdarren. Where on the DNA tells a zygote to replicate muscle or bone. This is a mystery to scientists but with the course the human genome is heading that answer might be solved. Just think, doctors could tell your body to heal faster if such a discovery were made. But I don`t like to extrapolate on trends, too risky. Any AP Statistic people here?

"Extrapolate at your own risk." --Mr. G

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Male 12,138
[quote]Yup. He avoided the question. What a douche. And of course, the biased crowd cheered for no apparent reason.[/quote]

Funny that you mention the "biased crowd" there. See the "Book TV" icon in the bottom right corner of the vid? It was a reading at a University Campus book club for his "The God Delusion" book (I`ve watched the whole two hours of it, this is a small excerpt from the Q&A session following the abridged reading by Prof Dawkins).

Thing is, a local Fundamentalist Christian "College" (Liberty University) got wind that Dawkins was appearing and spammed/hijacked the whole Q&A session afterward with Creationist/Fundie horsewank. A previous questioner in this same Q&A session asked Dawkins how he could prove that the dinosaur fossils in his College were not 2000 years old and had drowned in Noah`s Flood. Dawkins laid a similar smackdown on him. Same lecture.

Now, you were saying something about a biased crowd?

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Male 2,605
yourallwrong, I`ll link to it. Browse down to my last post addressed to Baalthazaq and you`ll see the question and its context.

A lot of people are asking whether Dawkins even answered the question. My interpretation is the girl wasn`t seeking an answer so much as she was aiming for a `Gotcha!` line against Dawkins. Richard in turn saw it for what it was and turned the tables, showing how anyone could be wrong about any of the various religions man has ever come up with and that the `Gotcha!` line applies equally to anyone.

I, too, would take the question offensively, because the girl seems to think Dawkins hasn`t fully considered the implications of his argument. Essentially the girl has the arrogance to assume she thought of something so basic and Richard hasn`t.

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Male 601
Lust is something that is almost natural for humans, or all animals for that matter. The reason sex feels good is because it is a measure the body imparts to make us want to reproduce. But you`re correct if you`re saying lust can lead to problems, because it does.
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Male 833
cause of course you know exactly what god wants since you see and talk to him all the time.

oh wait...

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Male 46
Industry can be managed healthily. Meaning a corporation truelly looks for their consumers best interest while staying afloat. You don`t need greed to run an economy you just present something people might need to function everyday. Like toothbrushes, I couldn`t live without my toothbrush. Besides, God want`s us be be happy though we need to recognize what we already own and be thankful, you don`t need to be Christian to do any of this.

When I said lust, I really meant to censor myself from saying, gutter slut hopping frenzies. In my opinion, I don`t think it`s wrong to look at a girl and think beautiful but it`s when you strip her down in you minds eye where lust start to take affect.

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Male 601
"What`s in the DNA that convinces the cell to split?
Does any scientist know, well no."

Well, it`s just by coincidence, but in my AP Biology class we are reviewing DNA and RNA. And yes, scientists do know. The cell splits because an innate feature with any living organism is the need to reproduce. The splitting of cells is a means of not only perpetuating life, but also healing the organism and replacing dead cells. The ability of cells to split is an emergent property that arises from the various amino/peptide polymers that form such complex structures that they enable certain things, like reproducing.

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Male 1,222
"
*finally gets home to his log cabin, after a hard day`s lumberjacking in the snowy woods. Checks to see that the fire he planted earlier is still burning in the stove.*

Ah yes. All good. All good. My job here is done.

And so to bed. "

Got me thinking there, nice

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Male 309
and my apologies snazyguy, i feel bad your first time posting you get attacked by everyone on the forum =P
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Male 483
"What`s in the DNA that convinces the cell to split?
Does any scientist know, well no."

....

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Male 309
"In Christianity there lies freedom from greed, lust, selfishness, hate, this argument ...." --snazyguy

id like to point out that all organisms have lust. without it we wouldnt reproduce and wed go extinct. Also, "greed" and "selfishness" are what drives Americas, and the free worlds, economy. everyone is looking to do whatever they can to make themselves better off. people act in their own self interest. you can call this bad and greedy, but the industrys people are most satisfied with are all for-profit. the not-for-profit industries all suck and noone likes them or gets quality goods from them.
so id rather keep my lust and greed and selfishness

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Male 350
Yup. He avoided the question. What a douche. And of course, the biased crowd cheered for no apparent reason.

If you ask me, the question "what if you`re wrong" is an easy one to answer. You always have to make an exception for things in life. Even in the things you`re certain of, such as politics, sciences, or lifestyle, you have to stay moderate and not go to any extremes. If you live a life going to church every sunday in prayer, and it turns out you`re wrong when you die, no big deal. If you kill millions of people because you think their religion is wrong, then if YOU are wrong, well, you were a mass murderer.

Moderation is the key to everything.

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Male 46
In Anatomy/Phisiology today we were discussing mitosis of a cell and how everything works so so. What`s in the DNA that convinces the cell to split?
Does any scientist know, well no.

Learn about your body and you learn that you do fly with pixie dust.

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Male 833
actually this is the best religion

Dudeism

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Male 12,138
*finally gets home to his log cabin, after a hard day`s lumberjacking in the snowy woods. Checks to see that the fire he planted earlier is still burning in the stove.*

Ah yes. All good. All good. My job here is done.

And so to bed.

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Male 833
why should i care how i spell on the internet? its not like im here to impress everyone with my exceptionally unique and gifted euphemisms.
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Male 601
"With millions, if not thousands, of devout worshippers, the Church of the FSM is widely considered a legitimate religion, even by its opponents – mostly fundamentalist Christians, who have accepted that our God has larger balls than theirs."

--Bobby Henderson

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Male 833
i think i finally know why IAB posts religious content, look at how many new posters we get!
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Male 46
And you, Raberboom, can`t see what you write.
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Male 46
Npdarren you don`t kill people to get closer to God. Quite obvious I know but why did you signify it?
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Male 833
or snazyguy is too to blinded to see the scope of things.
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Male 564
What the freak? I agree with Maeter. He didn`t even make a single point in that lengthy answer. He just completely avoided the point.
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Male 46
Opie, then you fail to see the broad scope of things.
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Male 833
which is different from the Serengeti monster im pretty sure....
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Female 179
Spaghetti Monster..Raberboom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spag...

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Male 638
"Why do people even discuss this? Can`t you just leave people to believe what they believe. If a religious person is converted by that guys book, they would have probably ended up in hell anyway."

Ask that to the thousands of people who are killed each year because of religion, to the who women in countries that have no rights because of religion, to the growing number of Africans getting AIDS because condoms are deemed wrong because of religion, and to all the other ills that religion causes.

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Male 601
"It`s that relationship those people are lacking."

Even though many terrorists believe killing themselves for their religion brings them closer to God/Allah.

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Male 833
way to go Dfaulted, you figured out religion.

and what the hell is a Serengeti monster?

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Male 46
That`s what they are, those wars are based on religion. I`m not religious at all, no, but I do have a relationship with God/Jesus. It`s that relationship those people are lacking.
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Male 1,918
I for one don`t judge people by what they believe in, just because you meet some people from a religion that are idiots (or something else) doesn`t mean every single one of the people who believe that are idiots.
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Female 15,763
Snazy, there isn`t enough room here for me to go into it, and I don`t wish to open this debate up to attacking my personal beliefs. However your comment was written quite matter-of-factually, and sounded very objective. I would just like to point out the subjectivity in it.
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Male 1,918
I always use this point, the only reason these people are their religion is because they were born into it, not many people who are born into a religion ever change
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Male 46
You can`t dismiss the old testament because ultimately you are dismissing God`s plan. By the way I love the Serengeti monster; I want to believe!
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Male 12,365
"In Christianity there lies freedom from greed, lust, selfishness, hate,"

That might be the most monumentally untrue statement I`ve seen on the net this year, if not ever.

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Male 601
>Snazyguy

From what history teaches me, my beliefs are that Christianity causes self-destruction more than it prevents it. I see no reason to believe any non-religious person is inherently subject to self-destruction, especially when a vast majority of wars and genocide, etc., are religion based.

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Male 833
anytime someone asks me about religion i tell them to just look at their own religions blood and war filled roots.
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Male 12,365
""I have read the Bible a few times, and each time I read it I believe in the possibility of a God less and less."

Yeah it kinda solidified my atheism. Especially the old testament... which isn`t as Christian as the new testament, but is much more f*cked up."

Sort of(*) the same here, although I`d query whether the old testament is Christianity at all. It`s basically Judaism.

Reading different translations was also an eye-opener, as was discovering how and when the new testament was put together.

* I saw "sort of the same" because reading the Christian bible made me believe less and less in Christianity rather than in a god. Although I don`t believe in any gods either, that`s not down to the Christian bible.

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Male 46
What do you live by Opiebreath?
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Female 15,763
"The principles that Christ taught are easily the best any religion can teach."

I just hope you understand that that is YOUR personal opinion and nothing more.

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Male 833
you are all heathens, the only true being is the FSM!


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Male 46
In Christianity there lies freedom from greed, lust, selfishness, hate, this argument and if you turn towards the Lord you`ll amount your life past yourself towards self-actualization through the Lord. It`s about unbinding the chains from this world and living for something much more. Once that is accomplished you can start anew, helping save the people in this world from self-destruction. The principles that Christ taught are easily the best any religion can teach. Here`s an idea, if you can`t have a relationship with Christ then at least look at the great humanitarian ideas behind Christianity.
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Male 12,365
"I don`t believe in any gods, but don`t class myself as an atheist either for the reason that every atheist i`ve seen in the media has gone round preaching about how everyone`s deluded if they belive in gods, whereas i keep my lack of belief to myself."

There are several serious errors in that point of view.

Whether you`re an atheist or not depends on your religious views, not those of other people.

You have doubtless seen many atheists in the media who you didn`t even know were atheists. You`re only considering those who stand out for some reason. Your position is as irrational as thinking that all homosexual men are hugely effeminate and/or parade around the street mostly naked, simply because those who are stand out. It`s also like someone saying that they believe in all of Christianity but don`t class themselves as Christian because they see Christians preaching in the media.

It`s a rather odd position to take.

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Male 24
I expected an intelligent or short answer, and what I got was an answer that, while entertaining, avoided the question all together.

It wasn`t a difficult question at all either....

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Male 2,307
Derekcase:

Has anyone ever told you that red herring is not good for your intellectual diet?

So, you postulate that `Atheists` are ignorant of the mechanics of motion--and thus are blindly following scientists?

Seriously? I can`t even call that a slippery slope, because it doesn`t even lead to a conclusion that makes sense. You`ve jumped mountains and ended up in a totally different conclusion.

All I really need to know is that logically a God is impossible to surmise especially from a lack of evidence. I don`t need to know anything else, and atheists don`t ALL follow science. I don`t see any babies coming out with a Richard Dawkin`s.

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Male 759
I don`t believe in any gods, but don`t class myself as an atheist either for the reason that every atheist i`ve seen in the media has gone round preaching about how everyone`s deluded if they belive in gods, whereas i keep my lack of belief to myself.

I do this not out of shame or concern that i may offend someone who believes in a particular god or gods, but rather for the simple reason that i don`t think it`s my place, or anybody else`s place to tell someone how to live their life.

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Male 601
>Derekcase300

I don`t know what Atheists you`ve been hanging around, but myself and many Atheists I know are educated enough to understand physical laws and properties, and thus allow us to form an opinion based on intellect rather than blind acceptance. Like I mentioned earlier; I, for one, cannot accept something without first applying critical thinking skills--questioning everything and forming a conclusion based on what I know. While I don`t know everything, I know enough to form what I believe to be an educated guess as to the workings of the universe (because that`s all ideologies are doing, trying to make guesses at the true nature of existence).

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Female 15,763
"I have read the Bible a few times, and each time I read it I believe in the possibility of a God less and less."

Yeah it kinda solidified my atheism. Especially the old testament... which isn`t as Christian as the new testament, but is much more f*cked up.

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Male 845
"ne way to think of things is:
If you live your life as a Christian and you`re wrong, what have you lost?"

youve lost free will. god says you have free will but if you dont want to do what i want you to do, then youre going to burn in hell forever. thats not what i consider free will.

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Male 316
One way to think of things is:
If you live your life as a Christian and you`re wrong, what have you lost?

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Male 237
I`ve watched this video a whole bunch of times, and what bothers me is that he never answers the question. It was an honest question.
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Male 601
>yourallwrong

Yes, all arguments and ideologies are flawed. How events unfold in life often dictate how we think, feel, act, ect., and especially what we believe. Thus, most any ideal is flawed due to its innate bias.

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Male 75
Dawkins came to my school to talk a few weeks ago. Quite an interesting man, to say the least.
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Male 29
@hsartoris

Most atheists can`t, by themselves, comprehend advanced physics, can`t calculate the trajectory of a ball circling a drain or a bird`s flight path. They simply take physics for granted. Science is true because this person more intelligent than I am says so, and while there is some basis for the claim laid down in fact after fact, the average atheist still doesn`t understand those facts, doesn`t know the laws of physics or how they apply to things on the macro scale, can`t do the math. So for him, it`s still blind faith is something that he is told to be true but can`t understand.
There is a similarity.

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Male 1,815
Does anyone even read these comments? They are just SCREAMING tl;dr
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Male 3
---
We`re limited in what we can do, and that includes drawing up a logical conclusion. Both sides defend themselves with a terribly flawed system, so to the both groups: shut the hell up do something worthwhile.
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Male 1,054
Richard Dawkins and his peers always sound like "ex-gays" and homophobes - so sure that their denial of other people`s experiences defines reality for everyone.

So many prominent "ex-gays" and homophobes have been caught in anonymous sex acts - toe-tapping and cruising in gay bars.

So just wait

one of these days, there`ll be pictures of Richard Dawkins getting himself a little anonymous sacrament in a dark little church.

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Male 3
If you`re a Christian, go read the old testament. And then go read the Greek mythology. While you`re doing that, shut the hell up.

Atheists, sit and ponder about "logic." I`ll get you started; it falls within the realm of our perception. While you`re doing that, shut the hell up.

We`re limited in what we can do, and that includes drawing up a logical conclusion. Both sides defend themselves

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Male 601
>opie

I have read the Bible a few times, and each time I read it I believe in the possibility of a God less and less. I just cannot bring myself to believe in something that you can`t approach with a critical attitude. I can`t put my faith into something that contradicts the things I have been taught, just as how a Christian can`t accept an Atheist mindset because of how a Godless existence contradicts their own knowledge.

I just think it`s best to be open-minded and consider both sides. Ignorance breeds hate and violence, and people who teach that all other beliefs are wrong or evil, are themselves evil.

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Male 432
Science has proved that you can save humanity and make money at the same time.

So can God. ;-)