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People said columbus was an idiot for thinking the world was round.
Science is what it is and religion is what it is too.
Oh, and, Arguing on the internat is for losers. I`ll bet Lerie never reads your posts.
Christianity: based on a bronze-age book of fables. One source. Unchallengable, infallible, perfect. In simple terms, observed phenomena must fit the theory.
Science: Let`s throw it out to the peer-reviewed international community, and if it`s repeatable, sensible and predictive, we`ll adopt it as science. By concensus. In simple terms,theories must fit the observed phenomena.
As a professional scientist, I find your labelling of science as a new religion to be anathema. We do things very differently to the way religion does things, you`ll find.
Science, my dears, is the new christianity.
BUUUUUUUTTT, since we`re in this and no one cares about my opinions, I`ll say it anyway.
If God (or G-d as my religion would tell me) decides not to help me in my daily or weekly life, then I wont help him in his daily weekly life. I`ll rely on science until I`m on my deathbed and staring down heaven/hell/neither. THEN I`ll know what to believe in.
Absolutely right Fred. A late development, the theists scored a bit of an own goal when one of them put forth Pascal`s Wager, but the atheists` side was let down by several of their number promoting "a basic knowledge of science" while simultaneously recommending carbon dating for artifacts several orders of magnitude older than its useful limit.
Some mistakes made here by both sides, and at this point it could go either way.Back to you in the studio Fred.
Has anyone won yet?------------------------------------------------On a late note, quickly looking at the battlefield, the Believers took a early advantage, but the Non`s pushed back the line, and then the Trolls came rushing down the hill, and it became quite ugly...I say its a tie right now
It`s not so much an argument verbally made but rather an argument assumed sound by Christians when they call upon the Bible for support. Go ahead: ask a few Christians why they feel anything written in the Bible has any credibility at all and note their response.
By the way, were you able to read my last post addressed to you in the `Intelligent Design Zoo` thread, Baalthazaq? I asked a question for which I`m still eagerly anticipating a response.
On a side note, it`s odd how pictures of the sky are usually associated with religious themes. It`s a gimmick that I bet has deeply embedded roots in early human psychology after witnessing weather hazards such as lightning and hurricanes. Does religion have its origins in a deep-seated ignorance of weather phenomenon?
Is their a wheel for the Koran as well?
Two things.1. It is "your" not "your`re"2. Take a look at the damn wheel you douche bag. That is how I know.
Times I`ve seen people accuse a Christian of this circular logic: ~1000.
Times I`ve seen a Christian make this argument: ~10.
Hell I`ve seen debates about the Bible with Atheists insisting the Bible cannot be mentioned or else it`s circular logic.
What things like this do, is arm the ignorant with an argument. This is why you have people who have no knowledge of theology trying and failing to win a debate, by repeating ad infinitum "Strawman", or "Circular Reasoning" or etc, whether it applies or not.
Then again, indoctrination and memorizing arguments rather than understanding seems to be more than satisfactory for some.
In fact, lets draw up an alternative to the picture shall we?
State the Problem of Evil argument -> Ignore responses -> Repeat.
"Can God make a mountain he can`t lift?" -> Ignore responses -> Repeat.
Really? This is IAB worthy?
Ok well, punishment is punishmet... if you do something bad, you get punished... Christians believe that God is all loving... but the thing is *in our free will* we chose to disobey him and do our own thing... so therefore he brought J.C. do come and die and take our sins... and God said that you can be redeemed simply by accepting Him... so therefore, if you dont, *thats* where the punishment comes in... which just so happens to be, yes, eternal.
look it sounds harsh, but Christians *do* believe that there is hope through Jesus Christ.
if you want some more info:
In simpler, smaller organisms you don`t need a heart to transport nutrients and oxygen.
Just because someone doesn`t believe in God doesn`t mean they automatically have a PhD in any given subject; nor does it mean they think they do.
But faced with a choice between believing a fantasy created by ignorant knowledge-lacking bronze-age farmers, or believing a team of genius scientists who have devoted n-amount of time into one particular field, I know I`ll take the scientists.
Has anyone won yet?
Q: "What evolved first? The heart, veins, arteries or blood?"A: "I`m not an expert. I don`t have all the answers. Sorry..."
Please have at least a basic understanding of what your talking about before opening your mouth. Thanks.
Q: "What evolved first? The heart, veins, arteries or blood?"
A: "I`m not an expert. I don`t have all the answers. Sorry..."
God gives people the same "freewill" that people have in North Korea.
Explain why any "perfect" and "loving" being would create humans that were bound to act up and then punish them for eternity when they do.
Not only that, but this being is so egotistical that not believing in something this creator has left absolutely no evidence for is a damnable offense.
So much for free will.
PS: where did God come from exactly? Saying he is eternal is a cop out because one could say the same about the universe or something else outside the universe without independent thought.
God gave us free will. He didn`t want to have people that were perfect in every way. He wants us to CHOOSE to follow him.
I`ve not the patience or demeanor to go into another explanation for why Pascal`s Wager (what you are stating) is flawed, but you can freely look it up for yourself in the interest of critically evaluating your beliefs, XxSephxX. Go to Google and type in `Flaws in Pascal`s Wager` or something similar and you`re sure to find the results at least informative.
PS: creationism just seems more likely to me. KJV FTW.
If you make that allowance, then why not dismiss the notion of God (for which there is no evidence) and extend the allowance to the existence of the universe (or at least its precursor, whatever it may have been)? God is simply not necessarily if we can claim the universe (define it as you will) has always existed.
Thanks, but I`ve already had encounters with the religious and I know precisely how educational they end up turning out.
"i am jus using my knowledge i have so far to defend my beliefs even if i make a fool of myself."
May I make an open suggestion? Don`t use your existing knowledge to defend beliefs before you`ve put them to a rigorous investigation. Beliefs that are worth keeping are beliefs that are worth testing. If you don`t care whether your beliefs are true - if you don`t really care whether God exists or not, or whether there is a soul or not - then that is your prerogative, but if you want to claim that yes, you *do* care about the truth value of your beliefs, then act like it and avoid being branded a hypocrite.
I find just the opposite. Any being complex enough to create life would have to be at least as complex, and so God explains nothing. Where did God come from, by the way?
"Maybe its because humans are too prideful to admit they are sinners who deserve death and arent deserving of ANYTHING"
Wow. This is really horrifying stuff you`re saying. Actually, I`m speechless. You are perhaps too far gone.
and some "Christians preachers" are only wanting your money because they are greedy fake fools.and i find it FAR more believable that God created the entire universe then the Big Bang or evolution,its jus absurd reallyMaybe its because humans are too prideful to admit they are sinners who deserve death and arent deserving of ANYTHING yet God still loves us and wants us to believe on him and accept him to come into our hearts and cleanse us,yet people turn him away despite all of the mercy he has given us.
remember,it is all an act of faith
That`s a pretty bold claim to make, one I`m not sure you`re educated enough to grasp the significance of. Son, science is the best method we have of learning about the natural world. Probably the worst method is taking everything your parents\authority figures tell you for granted without critically evaluating what they`re saying with your *own* mind. It wouldn`t take much for you to look up a scientific experiment on-line, one which you can easily carry out yourself with household materials, and see that the conclusions made are supported by actual data.
Laugh at them. Then convince anyone else who will listen. Remember that we don`t really care what fundamentalists believe, but we do care about the thoughts of those who are listening to the spectacle.
"Why do you even care if you don`t believe in any of that?"
Because the main concern is not based in belief but rather in the very tangible effects the belief has on your and others` behavior and good will. While I don`t care about the beliefs, I care about the effect those beliefs have on people, because beliefs inform actions.
"also believing in evolution... is an act of FAITH"
Bullsh*t. I can explain to you exactly why evolution must be true, but I don`t suspect you have much knowledge of DNA synthesis and so you would be unable to appreciate my argument.
Well, if you`d read the whole passage and have any idea what`s going on, you`d understand.
Verse 17: He`s telling the people that he`s not come to create a new government and overthrow the Romans like everyone thought the Messiah was going to do. He`s come to fullfill prophesy.
Verse 18: You should continue living under the rule of people God has allowed to rule over you until the day comes that Christ comes back and creates a new heaven and earth.
Verse 19: Don`t tell others to disobey. Obey the earthly laws.
Verse 20: Here Jesus puts down the pharasees because they thought they were the best, religiously. So he says that unless you can uphold the law better then them, who focus on nothing else and still fall short, then it doesn`t matter. Basically saying that you can`t get to heaven by works.
[email protected] who mock others for their beliefs
I`m gonna go ahead and say that your math is off, and that the bible wasn`t written 20 years and a few months in the future.
but still, it amazes me that the god of the bible is intelligent enough to create the universe with his voice, but is childish enough to damn people to hell forever if they don`t worship him.
Little touchy. guess this joke on christianity is shoving God down your throat too huh? Here is something to really chap your glutes. The Bible says [blahblahblahetc] God alone gave him the idea. Hows that make you feel?"
Unappreciated, frankly. If God exists, he`s a freeloading dick.
That`s because there`s no set of beliefs that define atheism. Atheism has to do with one thing and one thing only - lack of belief in a god. It doesn`t tell you anything about what they do believe, unlike with a theist (well, what they should believe if they follow their own teachings).
Basically, if you ask someone "do you believe in a god?" and they say anything other than "yes", they`re an atheist - they lack belief in a god. If they answer "yes", they are a theist - they have belief in a god.
And just because the Bible says that God gave men scientific understanding, doesn`t make it so. The Bible also talks about unicorns.
Little touchy. guess this joke on christianity is shoving God down your throat too huh? Here is something to really chap your glutes. The Bible says that all the creations that man Claims to have come up with through science actually only came from GOD himself. so man didnt Invent nothing under the sun. God alone gave him the idea. Hows that make you feel?
Practical usable science which is established and no one disputes, And the philosophical imaginary science of the extremely small and large. [/quote]
Science is Science, Crakr. Try preaching your two-tiered approach of science to the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Those civilians found out the hard way about the extremely small and large.
Crakr, with respect, I refer you to my previous quote from Mr. Darwin. There are those of us who won`t give up.
Practical usable science which is established and no one disputes, And the philosophical imaginary science of the extremely small and large.
A practical unified field theory is unattainable, The ones that`ve been proposed have bent and twisted the math so much that it`s unbelievably complicated.
Yet Screwed up enough to believe in the Bible...
I can do no more than quote the late, great, Sir Charles Darwin himself: “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.”
Mannord, I take deep offence at being labelled (along with all other IAB Mods) as a "bigot" in every one of your posts. As Lionhart has already pointed out, the Mod demographic here is heavily skewed toward Christianity, even so far down the spectrum as Lionhart who is a batsh*t-crazy Young-Earth Creationist. In fact, I`m the only outspoken atheist/antitheist among the Mod population, and I don`t approve links.
Posts like this get discussion going, high ratings, high numbers of posts, and get people enthused, one way or the other. And enthusiasm is the antithesis of boredom, which is kinda the point of this site - says so right there in the URL, `tis what we do.
If you don`t like it, how about you cease bleating for a while and f*ck off to another site? It`s not like you`re paying for this sh*t
Why do you even care if you don`t believe in any of that?
Wait. Hold the phone here. The Bible is known as the Book of God, but parts of it "don`t fit the criteria? So then its Not the book of God?
Make up your minds, silly Christians.
Hey (personal insult), you`re just a (societal scapegoat figure) who needs a bit of (cruel and unusual punishment). Go take your (dogmatic book of choice) and shove it up your (indecent bodily orifice)!
Why are we supposed to play nice when you honestly believe I deserve to burn in hell for not accepting your messiah as my own?
"I don`t see anyone bashing atheist with posts..."
That`s because a debate requires two opposing forces. IME it`s rather hard to criticize first-grade logic.
I`d rather believe theories that have explanations because they can actually be proven correct or false besides simply "God did it."
"YOU DON`T GOT NO PANCAKE MIX!"
I agree. The Jews and the Muslims have it easy. /sarcasm
Anyway, don`t mind me, let the fight continue...
How do we know this whole PICTURE is even real!?Because it has the I-A-B logo.
This fossil is 10 million years old.How do you know its that old?Because it was found in 10 million year old layer of soil.How do you know that layer is 10 million years old?Because it contains 10 million year old fossils.
MUCH more scientific!"
Carbon dating would like a word with you....
This fossil is 10 million years old.How do you know it is that old?Because it was found in a 10 million year old layer of soil.How do you know that layer is 10 million years old?Because we use several methods of dating, including calculations using the half-lives of radioisotopes.How do you know dating with radioisotopes works?Because it has repeatedly been shown to be accurate in isotopes with observable half-lives, and there is nothing to suggest that isotopes with longer half-lives behave any differently during their exponential decay than those with shorter half-lives.Oh.
"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place."
How is that sentence an argument against legalism? It explicitly states nothing shall pass from the law.
The only sentences I`m seeing here are saying "all the old laws still stand". I`m not seeing any that say "don`t worry about all those old laws".
And the reference to the Pharisees makes it pretty clear. The Pharisees were religious leaders who followed all these laws to the letter, and Jesus tells us we have to be as righteous as they were.
MUCH more scientific!
The bible is always right, the bible is infallible, and can never be wrong...
Is the world flat or round?
If the Christian answers that the world is round...their Bible is infallible, as all references to the Earth in the bible are flat...
Actually, Jesus was stating that everyone falls short of the glory of God and the only way to heaven is through Jesus Himself. It`s an argument against legalism, not for it.
but how does one determine what is the word of god and what isnt? do they just pick what they like to hear? I`m sorry, but the fact that it`s old and has been analysed does not make it any more credible. And how exactly do they choose what the criteria for the word of god is? does god channel messages to their brain? lol. I`m sorry, but I have no time for bronze age gods, and I don`t think the rest of the human race should either.
It`s funny how you guys always fall back on that. Please, enlighten me as to how the context makes these words any different.
For example, the next sentence reads "For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Which to me means "unless you obey these laws as well as the Pharisees did, you`re not getting into heaven".
So if anything, the context cements my interpretation. But I love to watch Christians try to make excuses for their religion, so please, go ahead. Who knows, you might even give a decent reason for it.
I remember a priest once spoke in a school assembly and used the fallacious argument of Piscal`s wager to make us believe we were going to hell. None of us had studied philosophy at the time. We all knew we were angry and he was wrong, but we couldn`t figure out why.
I would remind you that at least 7 of the 11 mods are Christians, but you`ve been around IAB long enough to know that by now.
I don`t like Nickelback, or chihuahua`s, or peanut butter, but that doesn`t mean if someone submits a post about them I`ll reject it. You seem to be implying that we should use our Christianity to censor IAB so that only what suits our own personal tastes and beliefs makes it to the site. The day that becomes SOP on IAB, I`ll be outta here.
As long as I have that... I am good.
"analyzing texts and trying to ascertain which texts seem to be the inspired Word of God and which ones do not fit the criteria"
Rofl, pretty cute little way to spin "cutting out all the horrific, barbaric, and evil acts that are mentioned approvingly before the ever-increasing education of the masses causes them to see the bullpoo."
My deepest apologies, of course I meant to write "twicks".
And you should be living under Mosaic law actually, according to Jesus himself.
Matthew 5:17-19 clearly states that "not the smallest letter will pass from the law", and that anyone "who breaks one of the least of these commands [..."> will be called least in the kingdom of heaven".
So actually Jesus says you should still be obeying all the OT laws.
I`m afraid the old "relax, it`s just a joke" defense has been played.
the reason we believe our text books is because most of them have had extensive research behind them, and are actually believable whereas the bible is taught through indoctrination of children, because thats practically the only way of convincing someone of the loony bullpoop in that book. Has extensive research been carried out to support the bible? Is there much evidence that makes the bible more credible than scientific text books? doubt it. We believe in the books we learn from because they are more credible than any other sources thus far-your logic is flawed. Just because it is written in a book doesnt mean it has the same credibility as the bible. The reason the bible is inferior is because its lack of evidence. We may not have "proved" the big bang theory, and evolution has pretty much been proven but people are just too ignorant to accept it, but the bible has jack drat and thats why it is more stupid to believe in the bible.
almightybob1, first learn to spell my name before you think your opinion matters. Second, we don`t live under Mosaic law anymore, so that verse doesn`t concern current people.
Deuteronomy 17:2-5 says you should kill anyone who doesn`t believe in God.Don`t imagine that your religion is way more tolerant and lovey-dovey than that brutal Islam stuff. It`s not.
There`s nothing to bash, that`s why.
a. Atheists are no fun to bash as what they believe in generally makes sense and
b. If you bash any other religion, you`re racist.
Tis genius really.
No fair...if you`re right you get to mock me in Heaven, but if I`m right we just rot in the ground :(.
One month later...
"Oh silly, you can never truly know the will of God!"
And they keep a-takin` yer money....
"this has to be the dumbest argument I`ve ever seen, "believe me because this book says so" "
no where does it say anything about the big bang, evolution or any sort of belief in anything written down anywhere it is an original statement.
Have you yourself proved the Big Bang? or evolution? or anything you have read in a text book? You believe those books so why does believing the bible make you dumb?
Seriously, believe whatever the hell you want. I`m sure noone on here as anything against that. But we will use the internet to repeatly mock, beat and generally make fun of religion until they all realise that we don`t give a flip, and that they should STFU.
And that is why we`re all here day-to-day Christ-bashing. That, and because we want to know what America would be like without the crazy people.
I want to slap people who say that, because it`s NEVER in the right context.
i guess the `going/not going to hell` bit makes one want to prove his claim rather fervently...
You might aswell be walking blindfolded into a minefield.
Not exactly. i`m just saying I personally believe its all true. and while there may be some translation errors, nothing TOO major is screwed up. the best part is, that nobody can prove each other wrong. i`m not wrong because you don`t believe in god, but you`re not wrong because i do. we`ll just find out when we`re all dead. good plan?
So, from what you just said, you have Faith that what you are reading is OK even if you know some parts are wrong?
You might aswell be walking blindfolded into a minefield.
Even better, Simple English
The pic was most likely made by someone who has been shunned or insulted by a Christian once too many times.
Everything wrong with the bible, the book christians beleive in, they go to church to to be indoctrinated with, is pointed out such as:
Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants "thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his disciples. 10:10-15
*Flame war explodes*
Makes... perfect... sense...