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Also, using a bunch of off-the-wall what-ifs do not prove a point.
Still, a bit creative.
A devout christian in his home gets caught in a flood.To escape the rising waters, he climbs up on the roof.Soon, the waters are up to the bottom of the roof.A man comes by on a raft and asks the christian if he wants to be rescued.The christian replys, "No thanks. The lord will save me."A little while later, the flood is up to the top of the roof.A man comes by in a canoe and asks the christian if he wants to be rescued.The christian replys, "No thanks. The lord will save me."Sooner still, the flood is up to the christians waist.Another man comes by in a boat and asks the christian if he wants to be rescued.The christian replys, "No thanks. The lord will save me."Eventually, the flood carries the christian away and he drowns.When he reaches heaven he asks God why he was allowed to drown.The Lord replies, "I sent a raft, a canoe, and a boat. What in the HELL did you want?"
On a side note, 700th post!
I`d like to thank the Academy....
Like you should listen to Ghandi, who went to Africa and wanted to enslave all black people because they were lesser. (Yep, that`s pretty much what he said)
No it`s not, it`s a very bad point. Make the effort to read some of my prior posts in this thread and you`ll (hopefully) see why.
I better get the popcorn ready
Denominations came as a result of the Eastern Orthodox Church not wanting to believe in idols so they made a break from the Catholic Church. Ironically now they do believe in idols, but yes the bible makes no mention of denominations.
"Precisely the nub of the "free-will" argument - God is, by definition, omni-potent (all-powerful), omni-scient (all-knowing), omni-present (all-places). If "free-will" existed, God wouldn`t be those things."
Yes but remember that the Bible also says that he is the Alpha and the Omega, to assume God knows the future is to assume there is a future and a past to God.
Seriously dude "Logic" isn`t just sticking words together, its a frikkin science, go learn it. All your mindless prattle proved was that (a) you can`t logically connect and (b) you come up with the wrong conclusion BECAUSE you can`t.
Whichever way you word your argument, the REAL logic of the argument is: IF this sign is correct THEN God preordained the curer to be aborted, therefore they can`t be the curer, BUT God has foreordained them to be. We have a paradox, therefore this sign cannot be correct.
Anytime both branches of a proposal leads to mutually-excluding results, the proposal is meaningless.
Let me ask you that old classic: What happens when an Irresistible Force runs into an Immovable Object?
Because whose going to tell the man with a bomb strapped to his chest that he`s an non-nice individual?
Personally I hold ALL religions in equal contempt. If you want to believe in sky faeries its your bis but please keep it to yourself.
But, you know it is unfair in any situation to let the loud minority overshadow the vastly larger silent majority. If you think more than a small fraction of Christians are like the ones you see on TV or the ones who act like idiots, you could not be more wrong.
It was "issues."
Because Christian`s make the biggest asses out of themselves, that`s why.
I forget who it was (I`m think Gandhi, though that could have just been in the movie), but it was someone important, once said "I like your Christ, but I don`t like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
Christian`s have the habit of putting themselves out there seemingly for the sole purpose of being non-nice individuals. They try to force themselves on everyone else, they take over, and the majority treat anyone who ISN`T Christian like they`re an ignorant ass.
I`m not saying ALL are like that, but it seems the undeniable majority are.
See, that`s why I avoid organized groups all together. That way, I don`t get labeled alongside the non-nice individuals in said group.
If more people were "friends," instead of "fellow _______s," then there wouldn`t be so many of these is
On another note, everything people point out that happened during the Middle Ages is true. That`s why they had the Protestant Reformation.
I am in no way saying Germans today have anything to do with the Holocaust. Please understand that.
It`s more probable that the majority of aborted fetuses became gang members, slackers, junkies, and rapists. Are we better off? It`s a useless question.
"Is it because you can bash Chrisitans and still look at yourself in the mirror and tell yourself you`re a tolerant person?"
I don`t particularly care whether it`s one religion or another. I don`t have any false ideas of being tolerate towards either, however I should stress that I berate the religion, not the people believing in it. To answer your question about why it most often is Christianity at the center of such debates: it`s because that`s the religion most people in the United States are likely to be acquainted with.
Kudos, pmarren. I`ll toast to religion intolerance when I go drinking this Saturday.
In a manner of speaking, yes. You see, the Jews and the Muslims really have no preconceptions that their religion is strict and rigid, and therefor do not go around telling people that they must live their life a certain way and then go out and do the exact opposite. Christians, on the other hand, LOVE to do poo like this.
(I`m kidding by the way, in case you couldn`t tell by the blanket statement)
Why is that Christians take the brunt of all religion bashing? Why can a person claiming to be Muslim strap a bomb to himself and kill innocent people and everyone runs to defend Islam saying it`s really a religion of peace? (I believe that it is a religion of peace.) Yet, one guy makes a billboard and it turns into a bunch of people making wide-ranging statements degrading an entire religion.
Is it becuase it`s allowed? Is it because you can bash Chrisitans and still look at yourself in the mirror and tell yourself you`re a tolerant person?
Well that`s what I heard!
If this child was predestined to cure cancer and aids then there`s no free will.
If there`s no free will then this child couldn`t have been aborted on less it was its destiny.
If it was it`s destiny to be aborted then it wasn`t the child predestined to cure cancer and aids.
If it wasn`t the child predestined to cure cancer and aids then God didn`t send it.
If God didn`t send it then this sign is a lie.
If this sign is the word God and the word of God is truth then it cant be a lie unless God doesn`t exist.
Therefore this sigh proves that God isn`t real
Take that Christians your own sign proves your wrong!
Agent Smith also suggested that a virus is an organism, and that should be enough to discredit anything he says in regards to biology...
"there are MANY denominations"
Which is odd because the Bible makes no mentions of denominations.
There are no exact answers in philosophy, it`s comprised mostly of opinion. A very subjective field that I have no use for when I`m trying to seek answers about anything practical. Get rid of this notion of any answer in philosophy being better than any other answer.
"By the way, God didn`t really make this billboard. Just thought I`d point that out. Some of you seem to think so."
God didn`t make anything; we made him.
"As much as it pains me to give ammo to the Opposition"
Probably the best thing you could do to avoid giving "ammunition" to the opposition is to not open your mouth.
I vote God is just in everyone`s head and he doesn`t exist.
"`science will figure it out!`"
There are never any guarantees, but if anything *could* figure it out, it would be science, i.e. reasoned argument, critical analysis of the evidence, yadda yadda yadda.
"Morality cannot be answered by science. Anything that can`t be observed cannot be answered by science."
Morality can be and has been answered by science. Look up the evolution of altruism and examples of altruism in nature. Understand the concept of the selfish gene and that it suggests being good to one another increases our chances (individually and collectively) of survival.
Gets all the credit, none of the blame.
Jesus, did they ever!????
I`m speaking about theological theory and dogma here, of course, no offense intended to you or any other Christian who believes in free will. Personally, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Let`s take, for an example, a newborn dog. OK, you didn`t actually create it, but the argument about whether it could evolve by random chance, or had to be designed and built, is not the question here. Its been born, its yours. It TOTALLY relies on you for food, shelter, love, etc. But the thing is, you don`t want a remote control iDog, you want IT to be happy, to explore, to run and have fun and believe it has some control over its own life. So you let it have some free will, while still defining the broad limits of its existence.
If there`s no free will then this child couldn`t have been aborted.
Precisely the nub of the "free-will" argument - God is, by definition, omni-potent (all-powerful), omni-scient (all-knowing), omni-present (all-places). If "free-will" existed, God wouldn`t be those things. Besides, the Bible clearly says "ALL things were foreordained, before the foundation of the world". Free-will is a comparatively modern invention by semi-believers who can`t accept that God runs things his way, not theirs.
There are no set rules in the universe and no bearded white guy sitting on a throne with his singing bitch angels, it is absurd.JC was not the son of this god, merely a wise man whose followers do not follow, because their culture is one of war and death.I think the universe is much more spectacular and mysterious than any of us give it credit for and the competing ideologies of science and religion only begin to scratch at the surface.If you want to expand your consciousness and find answers you are going to have to commit to a new way of life and go out into the world to find answers, rather than rely on books that are thousands of years old, which you most likely do not understand, having not taken that voyage...
Supposing NO ONE died from diseases, accidents, famine etc etc and all lived to the ripe old age of 80.
Bye bye rainforest, bye bye space... Hello food-shortage, overcrowding etc...
People love to point a finger at God and say *he wipes out so many people a day* or push for better medicines etc, but the world is becoming over-populated as it is. We will all breed ourselves into extinction so all these `problems` everyone moans about are actually beneficial! - however, they are still delaying the inevitable.
The human race IS a virus as Agent Smith (Matrix) put it. The best thing we can hope for in the world are abortions, famine, plagues, environmental/ natural disasters - otherwise we`re screwed!
...here endeth the *mooning* to the rest of the planet 8-)
So now the Christians aren`t even agreeing. Prime says that God can`t know because of free will (though that would go in direct opposition of a supposedly omnipotent god-figure).
Let`s see them debate over this. It should be interesting. Though I`m probably way to lazy to check back in and see how it goes.
Or: "I did, but you wouldn`t let them do research on genetic engineering to cure these diseases."
i think it puts the point across well tho.
As much as it pains me to give ammo to the Opposition, you are correct sir. No child was ever aborted that He didn`t know, and plan it, that way.
By the way, God didn`t really make this billboard. Just thought I`d point that out. Some of you seem to think so.
"I did, but you aborted them."
True. I`d just like to add though that just because there isn`t an answer for it now that doesn`t mean that there exists no answer for it. Speculation? Sure, but at least those attempting to answer such questions using science provide some evidence (although it may be weak) that could make it plausible and not just say "well, you see.. its magic.."
Oh, yeah. It`s you."
But aren`t you whining about people whining about people arguing on the internet?
Possible yes, but many stories are similar (not just about a flood but plot and poo) in many different cultures. So how can science successfully declare a definitive answer on this? Anything would be nothing more than speculation as to why
Or, maybe, floods are typically rare, very disastrous events, and thus tend to be remembered for a long time by primitive people who don`t understand them. Even the driest reasons occasionally flood. In fact, the Outback and Middle East both being desert-like environments with typically little rain could easily explain why flood stories had such a drastic impact on their cultures.
Not exactly true. Science always assumes that something has a cause.
"There`s a reason that basically every human civilization came up with nearly identical moral codes, even when totally isolated from each other."
Not exactly true. Sure some scientist would argue genetics through evolution. but that still doesnt explain everything. Why are some people in the conventional level of morality while others are post-conventional? If it was just based on good for the tribe and therefore good for me, everyone would be in conventional.
Also, certain things such as why are the stories of different lands often so similar? Such as Gilgamesh and the Aborigine (who are completely isolated) have similar floods stories to that of Noah? Maybe there is something to Jungs "Collective Unconscious", which can`t be proven by science.
To answer the question of "What is the meaning of life?" you have to make an assumption that life has meaning. In science, you cannot make assumptions. You can make guesses, but those guesses are meaningless without evidence.
Also, science has gone a long way towards figuring out morality. There`s a reason that basically every human civilization came up with nearly identical moral codes, even when totally isolated from each other. It boils down to social animal behavior and pure old-fashioned selfishness. "I don`t want to die, so killing each other without reason should be wrong. Besides, it`s bad for the community if we run around murdering each other. I rely on others, so them dying negatively impacts myself."
Through careful questioning, researching, testing, and observations."
You do realize there is a limit to science. Questions such as the meaning of life, what is the self, etc. Cannot be answered by science. Morality cannot be answered by science. Anything that can`t be observed cannot be answered by science.
Religion/Philosophy attempt to answer what science can`t.
Which is why I keep bringing up the "we dont have free will" thing that someone else keeps posting as if it was absolute truth despite the fact that no one else admits to having the right answer, just a theory.
Thats why determinism and destiny, along with free will are all still theories out there. Its hilarious to think someone on the internet out platoed plato
Through careful questioning, researching, testing, and observations.
As opposed to a bunch of half-educated men watching a lightning bolt and thinking that some great being in the sky must hate them.
Religious pricks have an answer for everything. THAT is a bad thing."
as opposed to..."science will figure it out!"
"Nothing humans do is random, or even a "choice" as we like to think. Our choices are predetermined by who we are as people. If you know someone well enough, you can predict their reaction to anything."
once again thank you for solving out the question that baffled both plato and socrates.
Is it simplification ftw as you kids say it?
"Arguing/Debating on the internet resembles the same usefulness as an ashtray on a motorbike."
Because that comment there was obviously more important than an ashtray on a motor bike
Oh, yeah. It`s you.
Except that actions can be easily predicted. if God truly knows everything, he knows each one of us more intimately than we know ourselves. It means he also has a perfect understanding of human psychology. And thus, he knows the experiences and genetic predispositions that will cause us to pick a certain course of action.
Nothing humans do is random, or even a "choice" as we like to think. Our choices are predetermined by who we are as people. If you know someone well enough, you can predict their reaction to anything.
Take this to a God-like level, and choice is meaningless. So either God does not know everything, or God is malicious bastard. Either way, he`s not worth worshiping.
And why shouldn`t they?
It`s only through asking questions that anything is ever answered. Asking the right questions, doing the right research, taking the right observations...
These are all the fundamental basics of learning. ANYTHING.
Religious pricks just use the cop out answer. "It`s God`s will."
Religious pricks have an answer for everything. THAT is a bad thing.
Having a question for everything gets irritating after a while, but only through questioning that which is generally accepted as true can one learn the real truth.
> primetimekin> Send Jesus to cure Aids? I didn`t know that was a problem back then
[quote]Romans 1:27: the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet (just).[/quote]
The men received IN THEMSELVES the punishment for their homosexuality? It may not have been AIDS, but it sure sounds like some sort of STD which was seen as punishment for what they did.
Going from a historical perspective on this, Hitler was going to happen whether or not it was Hitler. Germany got so drated up after WW1 they put them in a position where something like that was necessary. But yeah I get what youre saying
Point being that a major aspect of religion is free will/choice. It would demean the purpose to have people on earth if their destiny`s were pre-written (e.g. going to heaven or not).
So God could know what action leads to what repercussions, but its still the person who makes the choice; not that God put the person there just to be aborted.
The point is we never know what kind of person an aborted fetus could have become, and so it is uesless to argue for or against abortion in those terms.
Send Jesus to cure Aids? I didn`t know that was a problem back then. Atheist pricks just have a question for everything (c wut i did thar)
"But there is no such thing as free will."
I`m glad you were able to solve the question that philosophers have debated for thousands of years.
That`s an interesting interpretation of what free will means. Being influenced doesn`t negate that it`s still your decision.
Yes God knows everything but that doesnt mean that everything is set in stone, therefore he could chose to let the next possible situation be completely up to the person and allow himself to not know the answer."
But there is no such thing as free will.Free will means one have a choice in what they`re doing (free being not influenced). Why do people make choices? People make choices for some reason, whether it be based on prior experiences, magic, or unicorns, which means the choice is influenced. Ergo, its not free. Even if someone makes a choice at random, random is still based on chance which again is not free.
That sounds like a genius idea, seeing as I got around 1400 on my first try in eighth grade...
Might weed out some of the people like the ones we see in the "stupidest body mod ever" pics...
But that`s besides the point. Does the author of that board seriously believe that God`s power is limited to saving humanity through some human agency? Believers just don`t think critically enough about their beliefs.
Religious pricks have an answer for everything, don`t they?
Seriously, he sends a savior, and decides not to care? Why the f*ck? Why couldn`t he have done that with Jesus... Then we most likely wouldn`t have had to deal with stupid sh*t like this sign...
You just pulled all of that out of your butt, didn`t you?
Although, I`m against abortion. I`d rather wait to see whether the kid`s gonna be a worthwhile addition to society before killing it..."
Like a test period? Ok you have until your 18th birthday to get 1300+ on your SATs if not off with your head? Could work
Although, I`m against abortion. I`d rather wait to see whether the kid`s gonna be a worthwhile addition to society before killing it...
Religion and logic just never mix. "
well thats the simple way to look at it. But you are forgetting to mix in free will into account.
Yes God knows everything but that doesnt mean that everything is set in stone, therefore he could chose to let the next possible situation be completely up to the person and allow himself to not know the answer.
Religion and logic just never mix.