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ALL research into torture has shown that people will say ANYTHING to save themselves from torture.
There is absolutely no corroborating evidence to suggest that any information gotten through waterboaring or other torture techniques has prevented attacks.
Really, any argument for torture makes me thinking of something Thomas Jefferson once said:
"Force is the vital principle and immediate parent of despotism."
Polls that predict the outcome of elections are less reliable than those polling people`s beliefs. The fact that Gallup got something wrong 60 years ago isn`t a valid argument for saying that all polls are unreliable.
Anyway, we`re going round in circles. I`m not going to argue this any more.
Yeah, but what else did they do to get hanged?
Yes, when the Gallup polls 100 people they really represent the majority eh? And of course everyone is so objective when it comes to these polls and NO ONE ever has an agenda....riiiiighhht! You are one of those people who believe the sky is falling if the majority of people believe it huh?
Well hells bells it was in the newspaper and they polled people and they said the sky was falling so........IT MUST BE TRUE!!!!B-|
And yes, it was 2005 but that was *4 years* after it had been proved and widely publicised that there was no link.
And lostinkorea, yes, you`re right. Harris is, along with Gallup, probably the most highly respected and influential polling company in the world, but they`re probably just making it all up. My bad.
That USA Today link is to an article reporting the Washington Post`s poll.
The Washington Post`s poll was from 2003. And the Harris poll was from 2005. Your most current statistics are four years old. A lot changes in four years.
And yes, 64% is a majority, but is it a big enough majority to make sweeping statements like, "all Americans think Iraq and 9/11 are linked"?
Alot of the semantics and arguments made here are ... messed up. I could compare countries, but that be to easy.
thought that the two went hand in hand but I figured out very quickly what Bush was up to and I think a lot of Americans did too. Come on we haven`t forgotten the what happened in the early 90`s with Hussein and Bush Sr.
Check out this link to a USA Today poll showing that 70% of Americans believed there was a link, despite the fact that everyone else knew there wasn`t.http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/...
And this Harris poll that shows that 64% of Americans think Saddam had strong links with Al-Qaeda, and almost half Americans thought he was directly involved helping the terrorists""
YES CRIBBENS...NUMBER ARE NEVER MADE UP ON THOSE POLLS EH? Initially, yes I think most Americans
They were the first three I looked at.
So before you accuse me of being ill informed you might want to check your own facts. Thanks.
Check out this link to a USA Today poll showing that 70% of Americans believed there was a link, despite the fact that everyone else knew there wasn`t.
And this Harris poll that shows that 64% of Americans think Saddam had strong links with Al-Qaeda, and almost half Americans thought he was directly involved helping the terrorists
And by the way kevin, do you feel like a REAL MAN since the 13-17 year old girl with the Cookie Monster avatar has come to your defense?
emzrok, Did you read any of what`s going on here? Or did you just decide to play referee because you find yourself attracted to kevin?
Seriously, neither one of you is in a position to make the kind of ill-advised comments you have made, but it is the internet after all... any idiot can voice their opinion as you two have shown here.
Look on the bright side Kevin... in a year or two she`ll probably be legal!
Somehow, after looking at your latest default pic I don`t think that her being jailbait would slow you down at all.
But that`s just MY opinion.
If you WEREN`T a desk jockey, you`d realize that a) the type of unit I belong to is made up of mostly NCO`s, and b) Rank is meaningless. The BEST person for a task is the person assigned to that task.
I`m not mad at you kevin, I`m unhappy that you`d troll someone who is supposed to be a brother in arms.
You`re the type of soldier that volunteers for CSD just long enough to get the chance to expend a round or two so you can get your CAB and try to use it to impress one of the little State Department sluts hanging around the palace pool on Thursday night.
Then you go back to sitting behind your desk, or standing behind your counter until your tour is done, then you`re the first one in line for the ride to the airport.
I know your kind very well kevin.
Like I said before, you`re a disgrace.
In fact, most Americans know that Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11, and we knew that a long time ago. If you`re going to sound intelligent, please make sure you`re informed of the facts. Thanks.
as to the validity of my knowledge id just like to say it comes from a debate with my politics teacher, sorry for any inaccuracies or errors in my stats im not claiming them to be valid at all.
And the Dunning-Kruger effect doesnt apply since a choice isn`t being made. I`d go with the Kobe effect on this one which states, I`m Kobe, I`m better than you.
What was that?
Let me try to reason with you on your level...
I don`t think it`s unreasonable for me to infer from that quote that you are using how commonplace waterboarding is as a justification for it being used by America.
Most of America.
Don`t file your taxes and tell me thats true
I`m sorry, but that`s just hilarious. Does justice mean nothing to you? Innocent until proved guilty? Or are they guilty purely on the basis that they`ve been arrested, so they must be?
Either they`re POWs, in which case any civilised society would treat them in accordance with the Geneva convention, or they`re not, in which case any civilised society would treat them in accordance with the rule of law. Not just lock them in a cage without telling them why they`re there and occasionally torturing them.
And, while we`re on it, you seem to be inferring that it`s OK to do whatever you want with people as long as they`re not American citizens. Someone else on this forum said something similar. Are you real?
Do we have to keep bringing up the UN? They dont drating matter.
"primetimekin: How`s that `6 inched deep` frontal cortex doing?"Funny you mention it because its been proven that intelligence actually deals with Dendrite density and not size. The highest IQ ever recorded actually had a below average sized frontal cortex. So thank you dippoo.
Also, there is a chat feature?!
They are not "Enemy Combatants" either, that is a completely new bush manufactured phraseology meant to keep detainees in a legal limbo. It is shoddily created and will not withstand legal muster. Specifically the War Crimes prosecutions that Bushco ought to be charged with.
You have to take into account who has been doing the "Painting" lately, Obama. He wants everyone to keep blaming Bush. It`s the politics of distraction, He and Biden, Pelosi, Reid, etc.. Have been screwing up so badly lately they`re running out of excuses. The recent waterboarding memo leak is a prime example and Pelosi got caught in the crossfire. Virtually no one in the senate want`s "Gitmo" closed and for good reason. These detainees aren`t citizens, aren`t POWs, They are terrorists. Bringing them here and forcing them to be tried with rights they aren`t privledged to, Would be a joke.
Torture can never be justified. It`s a violation of basic human rights.Furthermore, it is not useful in extracting information because people would confess to anything and/or give wrong information just to make the torture stop.
""It depresses me that people on this forum can justify torture because it isn`t being done on American citizens or that it`s OK because Cambodia have done it in the past. It depresses me that you think that torture is OK because it`s being done to terrorists (based on the fact, presumably, that they`re Muslims and live in the Middle East).""
THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID. I was saying that we did not invent waterboarding. I said it was used in Italy, the Spanish inquisition and Cambodia. And we are not assuming these terrorist resonsible for 9-11 were muslim. We know this as a fact. This has to do with them being terrorist. Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist too and he was dealt with. Come on, think about what you are writing...
But since you don`t, I suppose that you`ll have to just live with your reputation here as a useless douchebag.
Considering that you obviously served at some point, I can only assume that you came out from behind whatever desk or counter you were normally behind to have a photo taken for the folks at home so they could "see you in the war".
You`re a disgrace.
Who thinks that invading Iraq and 9-11 are related?? They are two totally separate entities...
RobSwindol: I agree with the first part of your comment but this is a different time. WE are not terrorists. How can you say that??? The middleeast has been at war since the beginning of time. We happen to come along, (under false pretenses,yes) and we took care of some issues and people that should have been taken care of a long time ago. Hussein was a bloodthirsty dictator. He was not some poor little helpless head of state who we just came in to bully. GET REAL!!!!
As far as LUKAS1051: you are clueless, can I live in your rose colored world????
It depresses me that people on this forum can justify torture because it isn`t being done on American citizens or that it`s OK because Cambodia have done it in the past. It depresses me that you think that torture is OK because it`s being done to terrorists (based on the fact, presumably, that they`re Muslims and live in the Middle East).
It depresses me that most Americans here probably still think Iraq was invaded in the first place because it was responsible for 9/11.
I do agree that drastic times call for drastic measures. But you must remember, WE started the war in Iraq, which makes US the terrorists, not them. If any one of our soldiers had been treated in the manor that we treated these prisoners at GTMO, we would have wanted blood.
There are laws of War for a reason. These laws of war are Established by the UN, an organization berthed by our very country.
How can a radio show simulate waterboarding, when the whole idea is to make the victim think he is about to drown. I`m sure the radio presenter was fairly confident he`d be okay.
I believe this is an appropriate interrogation techniques of terror suspects. These human rights groups are so drated up in the head and brainwashed that they don`t know their ass from their head. How can you fight for the rights of someone that wants to kill you. Anyway, this form of torture is not new and has been used in Italy, Cambodia, China and too many other places to mention. I can`t figure out is why a radio show host is glorifying this? This is serious and shouldn`t be used as a way to boost ratings for a dumbass show.
Hey, I thought we only dealt with mindless drivel on here???????
It probably sucks. You think may die. But, you won`t. It`s your brain going into panic mode.
Here`s the question: Would you submit someone to this if you thought there was a chance it would help you saved a loved one`s life? Even if it didn`t work, would you regret that it was an option you didn`t pursue?
All I can say is that after a few hours of this I`d probably rather have my tounge cut out. Still, it`s better than the human rights of just a century ago.
justjason44: if you want a fully cited essay maybe you should try looking somewhere other then the comment section on a web page. sorry for my opinion and knowledge of the topic.
screaminbean: thank you i appreciate that:D
What he didnt tell you was that removing the currency has been done to a sense, and it failed miserably. The fed reseve, for as stupid as some members are (yes you greenspan), is the best system out there.
*Waits for universe to tear up into a ball of flames*
It`s a lot clearer in this video about what actually happens.
1. Yes there were predicted attacks and people did warn about 9/11, along with 9/7,9/10,9/13, and several years before that too.2. US gov`t sends money to leaders around the world for various diplomatic reasons. To assume they knew about those transfered is farfetched, in addition in a hi-jack, the terrorist wouldnt use mastercards to pay for the planes. Now that there were possible errors in the names? Sure.
3. Ap flight school employee questionable source.4. And my biggest problem with the movie. The titanium cant burn. If you take into account velocity and friction and then add that to the existing fuel temperature, it very easily could burn titanium.5. FBI? Confiscate tapes? no way!
I could do more but i dont want to. Just know that many of their sources and presentation of information aren`t exactly accurate as its portrayed.
F*ck this, I`m going for a walk.
If so, you should submit it as a link.
When we captured KSM, and he was smirking and bragging about more 9/11-style attacks on the way, and saying he wouldn`t talk till he got to New York and met with his lawyer, I would have skinned him alive with red-hot pliers.
Waterboarding was done on only three admitted terrorists. It was not done for vengeance, or punishment, or fun, or to extract confessions. It was done to get information that saved thousands of lives. Proof of this is in classified CIA memos that Obama is refusing to declassify. He claims waterboarding didn`t provide us with useful intelligence. Releasing the memos would either prove that he is right, or they would prove that he is an unscrupulous liar.
That will more than likely lead you to a middle ground between zeitgeist and me. Its 12ish, I saw zeitgeist a few years ago, I just remember starting to write down flaws and filling up 1 sheet in 30 minutes.
The most basic things i saw constantly were misleading quotes and statistics that arent accurate (either accurate sources or used in an era where the banks were being blamed for everything)
If you strip it of the dramatic music and all that other bullpoo, very little of its true.
He just wants you to wear tin foil around the Fed. Reserve
Then in the 1930s the NYE committee tried to prove that the bankers caused WW1 and around this time the similar propaganda that Zeitgeist used was used back then
Thats as valuable as an Emmy in my book. Which isnt valuable at all.Simple mistakes such as the date of the birth of Jesus and having a good 10 minutes spent on that seriously add to the lack of quality of the film. Not to mention that most of his conspiracy theories come from Erza Pounds Anti-semetic movement that re originated post WW1 with the Nye Committee. So its really mostly old information
That`s a good video actually.
I watched 22 minutes of zeitgeist and pointed out 31 errors. It should be noted 5 minutes of the 22 were the intro.
Zeitgeist is bullpoo.
You can disembowel a man with just your words. Army or not, that`s funky.
HAHAHAHA wait your serious?
Whats the UN gonna do? Write a letter?
"because they are such a crock of rubbish they are hilarious. "
I can vouch for osiris, if theres anything he isnt its a crock
Unless you`re afraid that I`ll eviscerate you in front of the very kids you`re trying so hard to impress...
You continue to prove yourself to be a self-righteous piece of eurotrash with each posting.
Yes, I am in the military. I am an NCO near the top of the food chain.
However, I also hold a graduate degree from Trinity College at the University of Dublin on YOUR side of the pond.
You however are obviously nothing more than a football hooligan with a semester or two of college under his belt who is quite happy with his station in life as the most intelligent member of your little band of twats who look up to you because you`ve read a book or two.
Whilst I appreciate the point you where trying to make with your earlier link, it`s simply not acceptable to link that sort of material here.
Something tells me you`re not trained in the art of interrogative techniques and thus not exactly qualified to give valuable information thereof.
Hey wait now, I was calling him a pussy because he thought it was no big deal before he did it. I was also including myself in the puss category because I wouldn`t even agree to get on the table in the first place.
Just thought I`d clear up my input. >_>;
Mate, seriously, im not gonna tell you to shut up, since i love reading your posts, because they are such a crock of rubbish they are hilarious.
you say stop calling him a pussy? you can try this out at home, i poured it over my friends face and he went for over 30 seconds, and then the bucket of water ran out. i only managed it for 13 seconds. 3 seconds down from a (alleged) green beret? I think ill go pat myself on the back for that!!
Keep up the good work, you half-baked squaddie boy!!
Well [email protected] I almost drowned when I was a little kid and I imagine I wouldn`t last a second of waterboarding.
The problem comes when it is LEGAL GOVERNMENT PRACTICE to do so. How can we tell people like that not to hurt others to get what they want when we hurt people to get what we want?
I think that the use of waterboarding is most likely necessary right now, but we should NOT be satisfied with it.
I, and every single person in my unit have voluntarily experienced what you saw in the video to understand exactly what was going to happen to Taliban we captured that were gong to end up at Gitmo.
To every single person here who called Mancow a pussy, FU*K YOU.
I m a trained soldier.
A professional badass.
The beret I wear with my dress uniform just happens to be green.
I am easily one of the toughest motherfu*kers that walk on this planet.
When it was my turn, I lasted sixteen seconds.
And I am trained and conditioned to take a physical beating that would easily kill most of you.
Yet after sixteen seconds of this being done to me, I was begging for mercy.
He`s not a pussy.
He had the balls to see if it was really as bad as he`s heard, and he found out.
So until one of YOU experiences it, I`m going to have to ask you to kindly shut the hell up since YOU HAVE NO IDEA.
We can put robots on drating mars but not waterboarding anyone anymore is absolutely impossible?
Bullpoo. The "the way everything works now is as good as it`s ever gonna get and if you even hint at looking for a better way then you`re a drating commie" mentality needs to change. The world changes, every day mankind`s collective knowledge of how the world works evolves, gets more accurate, if governments can`t keep up, then we are in for one bumpy future.
I`m not saying waterboarding is right or waterboarding is wrong, I`m saying that the fact that we don`t have a better solution by now is drating pathetic.
That bit about people being waterboarded 80 times... Make sure you put that in context.. That mean 80 times water was dumped on their face. Not 80 days they were subjected to the "torture" As well there were 3 that got it repeatedly... THREE out of how many detainees? Small percentage. But go on with your half facts I`m sure there are plenty out there who`ll buy it.
It`s sure as hell not easy to claim that we`re the good guys when we`re doing something like this, in truth my thinking is that when you`re at war with someone, you go in with the understanding that enemy combatants are targets to be killed and that`s it.
If I were water boarded, by someone that person would become my enemy for life, I would not likely ever foster any feelings of understanding toward them and for that reason I think that instead of torturing our captured enemies for information, we treat them as honorable foes and allow them to die fighting.
This would mean taking no prisoners. If they wish to surrender, then they surrender with the intention of cooperating with us in every way we ask. If they refuse to cooperate then we do not abuse or mistreat them. We give them the dignity of an honorable death.
You can`t stop human suffering, It`s like trying to hold the wind in your hand. Platitudes and Rhetoric only go so far, Sometimes you have to get mad dog mean to survive. That`s just life, It`s not fair.
We did get very useful information from this and, In nearly 8 years, We have not been attacked again.You may call it horrible, But it worked and didn`t harm any detainees. These are NOT citizens, They aren`t even POWs.
I just think that if we (USA) wanna be this sort of "shining beacon of humanity" this, "perfect example of a way of life" then we need to just quit being stubborn and look for ways to get things done that don`t involve human suffering of any kind.
We don`t have an "eye for an eye" legal system for a reason.
For the record, Waterboarding was NEVER used to extract confessions. The records show this was only used to extract information on al-qaeda from those who freely admitted they were part of the 9/11 plot and wouldn`t give us al-qaeda "secrets" (like where bin laden was hiding).
John McCain certainly received torture much more hideous than this, and Navy Seals are waterboarded as part of their survival training. Yes, It makes the person feel like they are drowning, Even though they aren`t. Simply put, It`s not "life threatening". It`s just very very uncomfortable.
"its terrible to do, but then again the people who deserved it did much more terrible things. hard to say where i stand"-------some of the people they do this to they dont even know for sure that they`re guilty. sometimes theyre only trying to get a confession out of them. it`s cruel and if you were the one being waterboarded, you`d know that it`s not right to do to anyone, despite what that person may or may have not done in the past.
Really, one of the supporters (or should I say former) of this "technique" could only last 4ish seconds. Ridiculous that it is still an issue.