Kid Wins Over Teacher In Creationism Suit

Submitted by: fancylad 8 years ago in

Student wins suit after teacher says that creationism is ‘superstitious nonsense’ and made Christian kids uncomfortable.
There are 235 comments:
Female 194
Lol... The one guy (currently, at least) fighting for Creationism against a whole board of people with an IQ above 90. Run, Christians, run!
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Male 271
we dont. far from it. the sooner you, and your fellow god haters understand that, the better, for me, for you, and for this "scientific thought" that you hold so dear!
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Male 271
further to the fact that you can`t prove that it can happen, there are instances such as the bombardier beetle, the angler fish etc etc... these examples directly refute evolution theory (as we know it)
further still, we have the problem that the world began, and that something cannot come out of nothing, which as you have rightfully stated, evolution cannot begin to explain!
so we have something that noone can say has ever happened, that has actual living evidence that questions it, and whose insuffience in answering the question that most people suggesr it does (what made the world be?) is absolute!
i am not suggesting you give up your faith in evolution my obnoxious little friend, i am simply saying that as it stands, there is a much bigger threat to the progression of our understanding of the world than creationists, and that is the arrogant, and misguided assurance that we now have the answer.
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Male 271
you havent stumped me either, i`m sorry to break it to you...
you seem so very happy with yourself for spouting the same gargled nonsense about how evolution might work, and dont seem to notice how superfluous all of your textbook based responses are!
read. this. very. carefully.
Evolution theory has provided an insight into how the world works. Evolution has changed the way we think about our own society... because of the philosophical impact of evolution theory, i have a great job that pays well. I am not the enemeny of evolution, i am just trying to show you how you `re turning in to your worst nightmare.
whatever you say in response, there is still no proof that evolution (from one species to another) happens that you can point to, modern scientists agree that depsite all the text book reassurance, it is still highly improbable that it would happen... "a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein." Fred Hoyl
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Male 525
Tazman321 your capslock-tastic comment suggest`s to me that a logical discussion would be to much for you to handle and would probaly make your brain exploade but hear it goes.

The main resion I don`t believe in God is because no one has proven he exists. Now I relise that you will reply by saying that no one has proven he doent exist but to a scientific mind that`s not how things work. Every thing else in the world has to be proven true, crimnials have to be proven guilty, medicine has to be proven effective, scientific theroies have to be proven true. Why should God be any different? The bible even if taken as fact, which is highly unlikley, would only be a witness statment there is still no solid evidence to back it up.

The resion people seem to hate God is because we can`t understand the logic in devoting your life to something that hasn`t been proven or deffending this devotion to a degree that seems ludacriss to the outside world. This causes a lot of friction and resentment

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Male 2,309
Also, God is by definition illogical--so I am not sure what you are asking for.
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Male 2,309
No one hates the secular things that Christianity stands for [omitting the right to sell your children into slavery, stoning homosexuals to death, beating your wife, killing other men for particular `sins,` killing people if they do not respect the sabbath, killing women if they strike a man in his genitals while he is engaged in combat with another man (that is no drating joke), women not being allowed to speak in church, women not being able to be priests/pastors/ministers, women being forced to remain virgins, killing people for wearing cotton polyester blends (no bullpoo}, et cetera et cetera!!

So you get the point. The other stuff that Christianity believes in that is good is stuff like: How they wish good will on others. How they take time out of their day to think good things about others [if they are trained to pray correctly] and for their family, and their future. Their love of humanity and the respect they pay to it. But there are too many flaws with it.

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Male 554
... ya just can`t have a debate with someone who still believes in fairy tales.

Mother-goose called, she wants her storybook back.

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Male 189
GOD! WHY DOES EVERYBODY ON F*CKING IAB HATE CHRISTIANITY?! ID LIKE ONE MUTHAF*CKER WHO INSULTED GOD TO GIVE A LOGICAL F*CKING EXPLANATION TO HOW WE GOT HERE! THIS KIND OF SH*T PISSES ME OFF! AND SPRINKZ, COULD ONE HATE MAIL HAVE BEEN ENOUGH? DID THERE HAVE TO BE 20? JESUS LOVES YOU, BUT SHUT UP! PLEASE!
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Female 6
drat that kid. Everything the teacher said was right. Creationism IS supersticious nonsense, and has had a major role in ruining Europe throughout history - which makes it very important for that class.
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Male 949
Religion, that kid from the video, his lawyer, all those reporters and Fux News all blow nutsack. :\
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Male 2,309
"regarding myself, it astounds me that you think i dont know what occams razor is. you must think you;re such a smart gifted individual coz you went to a lecture about biology, and read the reccomneded reading!"

You obviously don`t--because if you did then you`d know it is often employed to denounce the existence of God. God is a superfluous explanation to the universe. Adding God into the equation anywhere makes something overly complicated and thus is logically unsound according to it.

The irony of it is, that a monk was the one who came up with it. Anyway, good luck with all the reading.

Make sure to read talk.origins and actually try to READ it and UNDERSTAND it. Once you do, we will be great friends because for once in your life you will finally have the doors to enlightenment forced open by the wisdom of greater men and women than both of us.

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Male 2,309
"i am not a christian by any stretch, i just see the flaws in your self inflated, incomplete, and noxious veiws on life."

Well, your `veiws [sic]` are pathetically misinformed. You can think whatever you want, but at the end of the day, I am right, and you are completely and utterly wrong. Thanks for trying though.

It`s not like you`ve once stumped me. But everytime I stump you, you just find a new argument and disregard how badly you got verbally slaughtered.

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Male 2,309
"we exist! so how did we get here bigshot? have you any clue? or are you going to find another high school style american insult to throw at me? if evolution is so accurate about the origins of life, then let`s start at the beginning shall we? NO?? i thought not."

Evolution != Abiogenesis

/Laugh on

/Laugh off

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Male 2,309
lost this argument entirely. Don`t try to be wise again until you read the counter-arguments to your arguments.

That`s what a SMART person does. They don`t just eat up the bias.

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Male 2,309
You do realize that I have completely and utterly extirpated every single argument you have made, right?

Just because someone doesn`t readily have an answer for you doesn`t mean that God did it. You have to learn that. God did nothing. God is in your mind. God is you. God is whatever you want to believe he is. God is something that people make up to explain away things that they do not understand. People feel extremely uncomfortable when they don`t understand something. Try reading a scientific paper with all the jargon in it. I`m sure you`d put it down because it makes you uncomfortable or bored to read something you don`t get.

God is the easiest, simplest, most irrational solution to any problem that humanity has ever faced. Anyone can grasp it. You don`t even have to THINK about it. Just say, "God did it."

And now you know why I genuinely hate people like you, and whenever I see people like you, I make any effort I can to show you how wrong you are.

Anyway, you l

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Male 2,309
Also, there are no `missing links`. The whole missing link thing is nonsense. We already a fossil record for whales that shows their transition from land-based mammals with hind legs to their present day form with their withered leg bones still inside of them [they are clearly vestigial]. But creationists and ID types alike like to point out that everytime we `fill` a gap that there are now TWO gaps.

So let me give you an example.

Say there is a dog, and we have the present day animal, and a fossil from 20 million years ago. They will say, "Hey, there is a missing link here!" We find it, and then they say, "Now there are two missing links!" And so on and so forth. Don`t get caught up in the hype. These people are lying to you, and confusing your sensibilities by forcing you to accept their doctrine and their way of thinking--which is extremely dangerous. Free your mind, child.

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Male 2,309
Irreducible complexity has already been proven wrong so much and so hard that I am surprised you even said it. I was hoping for something more clever, but the motor flagellum [the thing that makes sperm move] can be reduced to only 20% of its parts and still function. So much for irreducible complexity. *guffaw*

It still can move, just maybe not as efficiently, but if things were `irreducibly complex` then removing a single part from it would render it useless. That is the hypothesis behind it, and it was proven wrong years ago.

You`re a very lazy person, and I do think you are extremely stupid. Because so far you haven`t proven a shred of intelligence.

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Male 2,309
Also, why life. This is a really interesting and fun question to answer, and honestly I am going to save you the trouble of reading it from me and request you go to talk.origins [google it] and read about abiogenesis. Life is arranged from chemical bonds. That`s why DNA is so effective as opposed to RNA [which is what viruses usually are, and also the first life forms were probably RNA based because it`s so simple but it doesn`t copy as well as DNA because only certain chemical bonds can occur, and thus there is less transcribing errors and thus more stability in the code.]

Anyway, go to talk origins and that will illuminate this.

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Male 2,309
"as for objections... why are there still apes? where are the mising links? how does double valve heart system evolve? why life? irreducible complexity? just google it, it`s pretty easy."

I`m going to start with this.

Number one, I already know the answers to all of these things. Except for how a heart valve evolves [which is arguably not as hard as let`s say an eye, and I know how an eye evolves.]

There are still apes the same way there are still wolves, amoebas, lions, dolphins, mollusks, octopuses and other animals: because they fill a particular niche. Evolution is NOT, I repeat, NOT a teleological process in which it is based on a hierarchy, for instance, a meal worm is just as `evolved` as you or me. Evolution is not about how complex something is, or how many base pairs it has, or how complex its structure is. Evolution is merely a scientific theory that accurately describes how things have changed [which is based on the environment they are in].

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Male 271
Yeah, and it happens all the time. I had to deal with teachers treating me unfairly because I didn`t subscribe to their particular beliefs, and often forcing me to side with them on religiously charged issues by screaming and yelling about it. What am I supposed to do? Tell the truth: that they are morons, or agree and get my A?

BITTER!!!!!

any arguments that stems from being bullied by people that are equally as ignorant and self important as yourself isnt one basded out of rationality, but spite. noone ever bullied me about my beliefs little boy, that`s why i dont have to call people "2 paper clips", and constantly "end" arguments...

still, makes sense looking back on it.

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Male 271
i`m through being nice to you, you`re an idiot.

scientific theory is not the most right you can be you tool. 2+2= 4 that is true, no doubnt about it. no science needed!

we exist! so how did we get here bigshot? have you any clue? or are you going to find another high school style american insult to throw at me? if evolution is so accurate about the origins of life, then let`s start at the beginning shall we? NO?? i thought not.

as for objections... why are there still apes? where are the mising links? how does double valve heart system evolve? why life? irreducible complexity? just google it, it`s pretty easy.

regarding myself, it astounds me that you think i dont know what occams razor is. you must think you;re such a smart gifted individual coz you went to a lecture about biology, and read the reccomneded reading!

i am not a christian by any stretch, i just see the flaws in your self inflated, incomplete, and noxious veiws on life.


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Female 109
that kids a brat!
whyd he have 2 take it all the way 2 court )-|
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Female 1
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Female 385
so natural and frequently occuring is even possible to absolve.
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Female 385
Thanks IronCrue but I object, not viciously as I don`t mean to be rude.

I like religion be it my own or not because it seems so natural. It`s natural when children make up "boogies" that scare them at night and for the sake of men`s own sanity to come up with strange if not ridiculous explanations of the world around them. Like these religion is something that forms on it`s own. Take today`s religions from the face of the world and people will eventually just make up their own for their own comfort. Some people will be satisfied with science while others just won`t take time to care in particular and just live. Of course everyone is smart and wants everyone to know how smart or how right they are and the problem again would be inability to agree to disagree. I can think of a other things that should be done away with and in my opinion are more halting than religion. How about murder? We should get rid of murder, but it is a ridiculous ideal to think that something

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Male 16
BlueJack, the problem is that what religion other people follow makes more of an impact on society than anything.

Religion leads to arrogance, and ignorance, due to the fact that their particular religion generally tells them that they are correct, when nobody knows what is going to happen in actuality. Why do you think there is so much conflict in the world regarding religion?

Religion is man made, thus it is idiotic to follow it. As an atheist, I can respect spirituality, but nothing that has specific guidelines, or any context that deems one particular group correct.

Religion is the most detrimental ideological standpoint on this planet, and the sooner it is gone, the better.

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Female 385
What I don`t understand is why belief bothers people so much that they have to harass anyone who differs. If I want to believe I`m Santa Claus and are posing no danger to anyone else I should be left alone and people should keep thier snide opinions to themselves. I understand it`s not a one way thing. Yes there are religious people do push their ways on others but it`s not right to assume all individuals of a particular group are the same. Both parties are victim and aggressor, but everyone likes to think it`s one way.
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Female 149
"umm...yeah...non-religious folks get this sort of stuff from the religious folks everyday..."


I agree. I was religious until my sophomore year in high school. Then I realized I didn`t buy into it, and now I`m atheist. If I sued every teacher I had who preached about how God is so wonderful and how everyone should be Christian, I would not have student loans coming out of my butt.

That teacher was not bashing Christianity - he was bashing religion. Was the classroom really the place for it..? No. But what would have happened if a Buddhist student would have taken this issue to court saying that the teacher was bashing RELIGION in general? Nothing.

Total BS if you ask me.

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Male 2,309
"It sickens me that you would be ignorant enough to post this comment. You say that "[every one]rants and raves at us for not believing in God we have to take it", but when you are subjected to religion it isn`t from a government paid person in a government institute. People are free to express their views, but as a teacher you represent the government, and the government is attempting to maintain that it is not biased and is impartial to religion. So in as a teacher while performing your duty to American citizens, you have no right to press religious views on the students."

Yeah, and it happens all the time. I had to deal with teachers treating me unfairly because I didn`t subscribe to their particular beliefs, and often forcing me to side with them on religiously charged issues by screaming and yelling about it. What am I supposed to do? Tell the truth: that they are morons, or agree and get my A?

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Male 2,309
" I mean hey, look at Scientology!"

Scientology doesn`t explain anything correctly. Airplanes with jet engines on them, and nuclear bombs exploding in volcanoes that didn`t even exist during the time it is supposed to take place. It makes no sense at all. Just like you!

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Male 2,309
"Evolution and Adaptation are two different things. Creationists do not dispute that adaptions occur, or that species go extinct. Don`t say that because your theory explains something better than another it is right..."

Evolution frequently has things `adapting` to their environment in order to survive, but you`re right, evolution isn`t adaptation. But you`re still wrong as hell. I really don`t know where to start. I don`t even understand your definition of adaptation, because it would still be a process that is not talked about in the bible. How could God have missed that part? Unless...it`s a fairy tale!

Also, if someone told you that light is shiny stuff bouncing around, and then someone told you that light is both a particle [photon] and a wave, which definition would you accept? Obviously the latter, because it has been expounded correctly [of course there is far more to say] whereas the other definition is foolish.

See how you don`t make sense?

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Male 2,309
"And faith literally means believing in something without proof that it exists. Also, creationism is supported by the fact that life exists."

I knew it was only a matter of time before circular logic would be employed! Life means creationism and creationism means life!

You sir, are fail. See how you don`t make sense?

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Male 2,309
"Your logic here is plain wrong. There are so many things that you need to know things, like a brain or things to know. But pick some random thing out of the air and you just sound stupid.
I say: "What color is your shirt"
You say: "So-and-so`s theory of what ever says that my shirt is red."

See how that doesn`t make sense?"

Red is not subjective. Red is a very specific wavelength of visible radiation. Science explains that. See how you don`t make sense? Please stfu.

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Female 385
Why do people get all bent out of shape and out of context whenever religion, usually Christianity, is mentioned? The point here is that a no one especially in a teaching position should use their own biased opinions in with fact. I believe he was not standing up for a single anti-creationist statement but his mingling of fact with prejudicial put OPINIONS as if they were one.
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Male 1,164
so a man who gives opinion against religion is sued... yet a man who preaches his religion to students wouldnt have a lawsuit against him (happens all the time) and im not talking of religious studies im on about some of your everyday teachers
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Male 296
YAY a group of religous people with different veiwpoints are all here! Kets here the fighting.
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Male 296
Aztorath, i couldn`t agree more.
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Male 157
I bet the kid doesn`t even care that the teach bashed the religion just a kid who wanted money for nothing. Second who cares what the teacher says, the only reason why people are getting riled up is because one side says his freedom of speech rights were violated, which doesn`t make sense since he is a government employee and technically can`t speak his views in the class room. But on the other hand you have this one kid who saw the opportunity to make a quick buck who probably doesn`t follow Christianity closely, i.e. banging some girl. So if the kid keeps the money then we`ll know what he was suing for if he gives it away may, and just maybe, he`s for real. When will we learn to stop suing for stupids things such as having your feeling hurt, we`re turning it to cowards. I say we need to verbally abuse are children til they learn that words can`t hurt... only sticks do.
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Male 189
@aztorath:
we say that because we belive in that, not because we discriminate

@catbarf:
what do u call teling a kid that jesus is superstitious nonsense? not neutrality.

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Male 1,455
I`m a hardline atheist, and I side with the teacher.

You do NOT give comments on political, social, or religious ideologies as a teacher. A teacher is state-funded and MUST remain neutral in class.

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Male 5
Additionally, I love this "You don`t have to respect religion, you can hate it. But you cannot tell a student that their religious views are "stupid" or "superstitious nonsense" etc, etc. You cannot discriminate because of someone`s beliefs." And yet those who aren`t religious are persecuted by those who are, by being told we`re going to a place of everlasting torture and damnation for not believing in their view. I think the threat of eternal misery is greater than calling something stupid or nonsense.
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Male 189
also, why are there so many atheists on iab? i mean, come on lol!
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Male 189
oh my GOD! can we all just drating get along? at davio, did it really take a rant to get your point across? i mean, a post is enough, for christ`s sake! and at whoever pissed off davio, since when did athiests get ranted at? call me crazy, but i see christians get questioned more than atheists. go rant on some other response board.
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Male 5
Another fine example of religious persons enforcing their morals on others. Strange how it never seems to work the other way around. His beliefs aren`t changed in any way by hearing the teacher talk otherwise, and yet he feels that it is warranted to sue for a difference of opinion. And wins. Of course.
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Male 1,289
YAY!
Another religious debate/argument comment board.

Why don`t we just set up a little forum on I-A-B so the religious and the atheist can go there and duel it out, instead of doing it in the comments sections of EVERY religiously based link?

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Male 599
"those types of thinking do not explain why we have mutations, ... adaptations both good and poor."

Evolution and Adaptation are two different things. Creationists do not dispute that adaptions occur, or that species go extinct. Don`t say that because your theory explains something better than another it is right. I mean hey, look at Scientology!
In other words, Evolution ≠ Adaption

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Male 599
"Creationism, on the other hand, is supported by no evidence and should not be believed by anyone."

And faith literally means believing in something without proof that it exists. Also, creationism is supported by the fact that life exists.

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Male 599
"Scientific theory is the basis of all real knowledge in this world today. Without it you wouldn`t know anything."

Your logic here is plain wrong. There are so many things that you need to know things, like a brain or things to know. But pick some random thing out of the air and you just sound stupid.
I say: "What color is your shirt"
You say: "So-and-so`s theory of what ever says that my shirt is red."

See how that doesn`t make sense?

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Male 599
"im an atheist, and i dont understand how if anyone rants and raves at us for not believing in God we have to take it, whereas if we say anything about God not existing, like the teacher did, we get our arses sued. There`s a reason that Christians might feel uncomfortable and that is that their farce has been placed in a light that they do not like. It sickens me."

It sickens me that you would be ignorant enough to post this comment. You say that "[every one]rants and raves at us for not believing in God we have to take it", but when you are subjected to religion it isn`t from a government paid person in a government institute. People are free to express their views, but as a teacher you represent the government, and the government is attempting to maintain that it is not biased and is impartial to religion. So in as a teacher while performing your duty to American citizens, you have no right to press religious views on the students.

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Male 201
You don`t have to respect religion, you can hate it. But you cannot tell a student that their religious views are "stupid" or "superstitious nonsense" etc, etc. You cannot discriminate because of someone`s beliefs.
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Male 439
Love how you must respect religion, but if you have something against it you are not allowed to say anything. Saying that Religion is superstitious nonsense must fall under freedom of speech? But yeah it`s totally taboo to rip on religion, though i somehow doubt that a kid would win in court for being subjected to religious bs. Also religion has a very prominent role in history so i see why the subject would come up.
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Male 171
Was this teacher not taking questions during his lecture? This kid is a complete tool for taking this to court.
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Male 171
HMM. Seems like Fox news has an agenda as well.
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Male 84
im an atheist, and i dont understand how if anyone rants and raves at us for not believing in God we have to take it, whereas if we say anything about God not existing, like the teacher did, we get our arses sued. There`s a reason that Christians might feel uncomfortable and that is that their farce has been placed in a light that they do not like. It sickens me.
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Male 2,309
Can`t you see there was no debate now? You never once brought up a point that wasn`t wrong or could be easily refuted. I`m not even a particularly smart person and I can do that. Just go to the library man.
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Male 2,309
"Moving on, you cannot possibly know the evolution theory is true... that is why it is a theory, i could give you plenty of objections, but you`d know them already, sorry, but it`s a fact."

Please, tell me these objections. Is it the second law of thermodynamics? Please say it`s that one. That one is my favorite one to laugh at.

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Male 2,309
There is just no reason to add God into any of this. I assure you that God is not responsible for any natural phenomena that we see today. Everything in this universe can be explained naturally and we will always strive to do so. But, unfortunately a few bad apples like yourself won`t do your homework and are thus wasting my fu(king time on this message board trying to clear poo up so no one here can nod their head to your callow diatribe.

Again, I am not an expert on these things, but clearly I know more about it than you do. I suggest you learn more about it than me, and then you can tell me a thing or two when I open my mouth. Now wouldn`t that be grand?

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Male 2,309
"Finally, i would ask you to explain why an infinitely powerful god figure would not have the ability to set the laws of evolution in to place?"

Occam`s Razor.

Go look that up after I say this.

But God is unnecessary in the model. You can add God or subtract him from evolution and it doesn`t change. Funny eh? Also, if "God" set everything in motion down here, why have the religious nuts been getting it wrong? I didn`t see, "The earth was created 4.56435495 billion years ago in the solar system called Sol. Then 500 million years later God waved his almighty hand and created the first self-replicating organism that was to say extremely crude, but God knew better! He knew it had just enough information to replicate itself and change, and in a few billion years he would have his greatest prize: Humanity!"

No. Because no religious group knows what the drat they are talking about. They are just non-nice individuals who want your money for the most part.

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Male 2,309
But this is a logical fallacy. There is no reason for there to be a God. There could be an infinite number of other explanations that we could reach, or never reach, but God is never a good reason. The God hypothesis raises so many questions and answers none. A real scientist would look for a real reason [is there one?] rather than just say, "Hey, I concede to my ignorance and I will invent something that will wish away my problem of how this all got here."

That`s intellectual laziness, fear, and most importantly ignorant. People only think like that when they are troglodytes. Pull yourself out of the cave. I`d prefer if everyone just accepted the truth. No one knows how we got here. If we ever do figure that out, it would be wonderful, but don`t let people feign knowledge when they are clearly mad.

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Male 2,309
"Furthermore, if you "know" it is true, but you can`t explain how it all began (the unmoved mover etc), it takes a lot of faith to just believe stuff started, then evolution happened after it. a similar level of faith one needs for religious beliefs, i would say."

*facepalm* Evolution != Big Bang. Evolution does not explain how ANYTHING got here. In fact, the big bang doesn`t explain how anything got here either.

You can say whatever the fu(k you want, but you`re still a jackass. I`ve really had enough of being cordial with you. You`re clearly unable to learn anything and you won`t change your goddamn mind.

The whole concept of causality doesn`t apply to the big bang. There is no cause for it. No discernible one at least. It`s possible that there are forces that are way beyond what we can conceptualize because we`re living in a pocket of space that we experience specific laws on a day to day basis. So it`s common to assume that we need a cause and effect, th

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Male 2,309
This debate has been over the moment I began a keystroke. You don`t even know what a scientific theory is, so how can you even debate with me? You`re like a scrub who can`t realize someone has more skill than you.

A scientific theory usually encompasses scientific laws and axioms. Scientific theory is the basis of all real knowledge in this world today. Without it you wouldn`t know anything. Without the scientific method you would have a bunch of hunches that are not put through the rigorous procedures that are used to obliterate subjectivity and promotes objectivity. When you have a panel of people scrutinizing your work, it`s much harder to get stupidity past them. The scientific method is not perfect because people are not perfect and they do make mistakes, but evolution has had a history of 150 years of being tested over and over. It`s a fact. Just as much as gravity exists, the sun is hot, and rainbows are just refractions of light. Just go read please.

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Male 2,309
A theory in colloquial terms means a conjecture, a hunch, a hypothesis, or an educated guess.

But! Here is the fun part: A theory when applied to SCIENCE means a scientific theory which is the highest status that any body of knowledge can attain. A scientific theory encompasses everything that we can possibly know about it that can be tested. In fact, a scientific theory tells us more than a scientific law does, because a `law` just explains an observation [and finds axioms], but a scientific theory goes deeper and makes predictions, and creates a model that accurately describes reality.

Unfortunately we live in an anti-intellectual society in America. So people never feel forced to learn these things, or know what their politicians really mean so people are generally ignorant of the fact that scientific theory is NOT in fact a `theory.` A scientific theory is so approximate to the truth that it might as well be called true. That`s why I said I know evolution is true.

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Female 16
I find it hilarious that Christians are playing the persecution card. The fact that this story was aired on Fox News makes it even more comical to me. Fundamentalists are forcing creationism into our public school curriculum and succeeding. Fail `news` is fail.
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Male 271
i would ask you to observe the guys posts who i was debating with earlier. Not only did he "know" his theories were true, but he was quite offensive in the way he put his beliefs across, treating my own with disregard and scorn, as if he was superior.

sound like anyone?

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Male 734
As much as I hate creationism, as much as I loathe whiny students and parents, and as much as despise frivolous lawsuits, I do think that this teacher was being both rude and unprofessional.
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Male 109
>Scientific fanaticism is just as potent as religious fanaticism

learn2science. Science is a process that welcomes being wrong. In fact, Science can be summed up as guessing how things work, trying to make an experiment that shows that your guess is wrong, then revising your guess.

To even attempt to equate "scientific fundamentalism" with religious fundamentalism just shows how poorly one understands science.

>there are a slew of philosophical and logical objections to creationism

Not it my book. The world was created sometime around 1988.

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Male 8,300
Gawd there`s a few candidates for the Orly Award here...
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Female 1,496
Wow that teacher is a moron.
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Male 103
why are you going to sue your teacher for saying stuff like that? how is receiving money going to make up for that. fire him yea but people just find ways to get money. as a christian, you must be able to take critizims. it sucks it had to be his dick teacher though XD
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Male 271
Please, stop trying to tell me how silly i am, and just respond to my posts with an objection, if you can muster one.

also, please stop telling me the debate is over. I dont think that is your call really.

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Male 271
ok, thanks for taking the time to respond properly.

I can see where you are coming from, regarding what we know and don`t know, but Gettier and tripartite wanderings aside , my point isn`t directed at wether people "truly know it", it`s about wether they beleive it enough to alter the way they live because of it.

Moving on, you cannot possibly know the evolution theory is true... that is why it is a theory, i could give you plenty of objections, but you`d know them already, sorry, but it`s a fact.

Furthermore, if you "know" it is true, but you can`t explain how it all began (the unmoved mover etc), it takes a lot of faith to just believe stuff started, then evolution happened after it. a similar level of faith one needs for religious beliefs, i would say.

Finally, i would ask you to explain why an infinitely powerful god figure would not have the ability to set the laws of evolution in to place?

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Male 2,309
Also, the big bang has nothing to do with evolution at all. I don`t like how they get lumped together like science is one big dogma and the big bang is our creation story. The big bang is misleading. There was no bang. Just an expansion of space-time from a singularity. No one is sure what caused this because at those levels of energy our entire model of physics breaks down. Nothing is discernible. Causation flips on its head and means nothing. Effects precede causes and what not. Anyway, please do a little bit of reading before you talk about this. I haven`t even done enough to be honest, but I can see an intellectual sloth when I see one. Do a little mental footwork and start reading. You will see that I am not talking out of my ass--I may not be able to expound as accurately as a biologist might, but I certainly can give you the jist.
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Male 2,309
And to add, both of those types of thinking do not explain why we have mutations, massive fossil records, adaptations both good and poor. This is a classic example, but the human eye is poorly engineered. First, the image has to be flipped, and the left eye goes to the right brain, and the right eye to the left. The shortest route would be straight back to their respective sides, but evolution doesn`t have an educated engineer [God] pulling the levers. It`s just too damn obvious that there is no divine intervention here. Certainly if it can be explained through naturalistic causation then it is not supernatural, and thus has nothing to do with God.

The only gap that we have is how did we get our first protobacteria, and abiogenesis is finally starting to mount evidence to explain it--which would explain the origins of life from non-life from simple amino acids and proteins [which occur naturally and have been found everywhere--even in space]. Anyway, this debate is done. Thx.

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Male 2,309
No one believes in anything truly if they do not understand it. You don`t even seem to understand that much. If I say that I believe in magic fairies, but the definition of a magic fairy is totally different than what I believe, then what do I really believe in? Obviously not the accepted definition--the same is true for you. You don`t even know what evolution means apparently.

Also, you don`t seem to understand science. I know enough about evolution to say that I don`t believe in it. I know it`s true. I can`t deny it even if I wanted to. The evidence is so overwhelming and elegantly described that I am forced to submit to the wisdom of the 150 years of painstaking research that has been put behind this great endeavor.

Also, if evolution is true [which it is] it completely negates creationism. Creationism has nothing to do with evolution. Creationism and ID both believe that everything here was created perfectly for its environment. Which is so wrong it`s not even funny.

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Female 187
not saying that teacher isn`t right... just saying, maybe he should teach that to his students?
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Male 271
as clever as 2 paper clips?

Insults... the sign of a strong argument.

I suggest if there was nothing of substance you wouldnt have wasted yout time with 4 consecutiove posts.

I`m sorry i wasted my time trying to have a debate with you.

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Male 271
again, WOW! you must be smart to have ended one of the great debates of our age.

ok, so let`s take this nice and slow.

If evolution doesnt explain the origins of life, then what do we have? we have a huge hole.

so, this huge hole, which is not addressed by people such as yourself (because you have absolutely no idea, no notion of how it could happen according to your theory), goes unexplored... people just take for granted that a big bang happened, and cows turned in to whales, then people showed up.

rather than criticise the scientifically demonstrated development of species, which the theory of evolution purports, i am merely stating that there are people who beleive evolution to be true, not because it makes sense, not because it`s even correct, but because they have been told. This, in my mind is the very same thing as relgious fundamentalism, and should be treated as such within schools, with consideration, observation, and caution!

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Male 2,309
Also, that teacher shouldn`t be injecting his personal philosophy on those kids. They can learn the truth in college.
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Male 2,309
Actually let me amend "evolution happened" to evolution happens. It`s not like it miraculously stopped, but it`s a very slow process--with some random leaps here and there.
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Male 2,309
You were told. Don`t worry. It`s not like you said anything of substance in the first place--which is why I didn`t find it necessary to say anything of substance. It`s not like I had much to work with. You`re about as clever as two paper clips.
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Male 2,309
I am sure the next 20 pages of comments will be bumbling idiots trying to defend evolution with their rudimentary knowledge they acquired from a smelly high-school classroom, only to be followed by complete failures who will try to defend magic aka creationism.

But let me just tell you the facts: Evolution happened. The mechanism is well understood, and the knowledge of it continues to grow, and is tested constantly. Every time a baby is born there is evolution. Bam. Can`t deny it unless you`re a fuc*ing idiot.

As for creationism: It`s just magic. It`s hocus pocus bullpoo. No one doubts the power of an almighty power to do such things, but why would the `almighty` place evidence that indicates nothing like creationism? Because it didn`t happen.

Evolution doesn`t try to explain the origins of life; it explains the massively complex organisms we see today. And finally, creationism doesn`t try to explain anything.

End of debate.

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Male 271
WOW. So your response to my post is to copy my whole article, then come up with a quip to tell me i don`t know what i`m talking about? I`d ask you to expand, to display some intelligence beyond copying and pasting... but i guess i`ve been told.
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Male 2,309
"It isn`t scientists that are to be blamed for "flat earth" beliefs of the past, rather it is the inclination of people to bow to the status quo of knowledge, something you appear to be doing with great precision boredfjord.

Evolution has clearly NOT been scrutinised by yourself, had it, you may be more aware of the inherent short comings in this most self important, ignoramus-inducing of theories. I suggest you google this subject for a quick rundown.

As for creationism, and your thoroughly well thought out opinions on the matter... I would love to hear your "slew of objections", rather than just an affirmation of your belief that what you have been told by "science" is true.

Scientific fanaticism is just as potent as religious fanaticism! "

No. Just no. When idiots on the internet try to feign enlightenment I have to just laugh. You don`t know anything about what you are talking about.

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Female 1,412
this clip was just so nancy grace style i couldnt handle it
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Male 8,300
Wait... what!??? The earth ISN`T flat!?!?!?
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Male 271
It isn`t scientists that are to be blamed for "flat earth" beliefs of the past, rather it is the inclination of people to bow to the status quo of knowledge, something you appear to be doing with great precision boredfjord.

Evolution has clearly NOT been scrutinised by yourself, had it, you may be more aware of the inherent short comings in this most self important, ignoramus-inducing of theories. I suggest you google this subject for a quick rundown.

As for creationism, and your thoroughly well thought out opinions on the matter... I would love to hear your "slew of objections", rather than just an affirmation of your belief that what you have been told by "science" is true.

Scientific fanaticism is just as potent as religious fanaticism!

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Male 8,300
What was that, first place getter in the World`s Smallest Video Player competition!?

And yes, that teacher is obviously a douche. Teach the curriculum, not your own biased slanted hedonistic opinions.

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Male 928
But that teacher is a dick.
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Male 928
JTrevor, it is categorically untrue that scientists can be blamed for the belief that the earth was flat. The belief was based not on observation but on religious dogma and, in any case, the modern scientific method wasn`t really put into use as the only consistently accurate truth-seeking mechanism until later than 500 years ago. So don`t go taking religious ignorance and trying to pin it on scientists. Evolution should be scrutinized, and it has been, intensely. And it has stood up to every scrutiny so far. Every piece of evidence found since the theory`s conception has supported it and not one has contradicted it. Creationism, on the other hand, is supported by no evidence and should not be believed by anyone. And besides the lack of evidence, there are a slew of philosophical and logical objections to creationism that make it seem even less likely.
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Male 189
He just wanted to get out of the final
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Male 2,125

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Male 390
as much as i disagree with this, I agree with you Fritolicious ("Regardless of what anyone believes about these things, it`s not a public school`s teacher`s place to say such things.")

But from what they played, it seems like he was being extremely opinionated, not outright discriminatory.
And I doubt that many teachers are this extreme.

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Male 12,138
[quote] davymid--It`s a sad day for science if what you say is true. "There is no controversy?" The scientific method depends upon theories continually being tested and refined. [/quote]

Agreed. Science is mallaeble and can shift in focus with new discoveries. I`ve personally helped out with that process.

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Male 64
I knew I shouldn`t have read any of the comments; I knew it would just make me mad.

Oh well.
davymid--It`s a sad day for science if what you say is true. "There is no controversy?" The scientific method depends upon theories continually being tested and refined. If there is no controversy about the validity of evolution then evolution is being set up as a "religion" of science: dogma accepted as fact without sufficient evidence. Yet I`ve no doubt you won`t find a paper advocating intelligent design. It`s not a testable hypothesis.

There are limits to what scientific observation can teach us about reality. Five hundred plus years ago, scientific observation told us it was likely the earth was flat and that the entire universe centered around it. Can science prove that evolution in some form exists? Yes. Can it prove that the evolutionary process, and natural selection, are the origin of life? No--it can only suggest the possibility.

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Male 199
Regardless of what anyone believes about these things, it`s not a public school`s teacher`s place to say such things.
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Male 4
School is about learning, to learn we must elect to study what others have learned through their experience with the theories and facts that have been proven true. In math they don`t teach you equations you have to have faith in, in order for them to work. Sure the teacher`s an ass, for bringing it up in European History,but we`re talking about teaching facts based on proof, general knowledge that has been applied with success in the real world. Creationism doesn`t have a place in school, it`s taught at church.
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Male 12,138
[quote] Sure, there is evidence and conclusions that can be made that support the theory of evolution - but there is also debate on this in the scientific community [/quote]

No. Just no. There is no debate. The greatest trick the Creationist lobby ever pulled off was the tag-line "Teach the controversy!". There is no such controversy, it`s a deliberately engineered lie.

In challenge, show me a single paper in an international peer-reviewed science journal which advocates intelligent design (hint: small-town journals sponsored by the Discovery Institute don`t count) and I will shut up, forever.

++++++++++++++++

Having said all that, this guy needs to keep his personal beliefs in his hat. Science class for science, Religion class for religion, and nowhere in any history class is it OK to expound one`s religious or non-religious beliefs. Time and a place, and this is neither.

As for sueing, well, that`s an American thing. I have nothing to opine on the matter.

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Male 359
When a student walks into the school building s/he gives up certain rights and you would think that a news source would know that.

As for the religious part I think that the teacher should have been found not guilty on all parts in that court hearing. First of all it`s European History and for much of Europes history religion was a leading force even above the government and the teacher has the right to say certain things about that religion. I will admit he probably went too far but still when a religion takes over whole nations and even goes above the government something is wrong and it should be brought up.

I also believe that it wasn`t a coincidence that the teacher was bashing christianity and the incident making national news on Fox.

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Male 2,578
The guy definitely shouldn`t be teaching. Anyone THAT deep into partisan hackery should not be anywhere near the education field.

But really, I think it`s above the pay grade of a high school teacher to claim he knows, without a doubt in his mind, the answer to life`s greatest question. How self-righteous can people get?

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Male 9
kenny_f:
you realize that your statement is incredibly stupid, right?
You would be so brazen as to call an entire sect of humanity degenerates because the mass of them are idiots?
Humans are, by default, complete twits. No matter what they believe. I guarantee you know stupid atheists. Probably a good few. Just because it`s hard to find an intelligent creationist (who actually can tell you why he believes what he believes) doesn`t mean you should cast such insolence on the whole of them.

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Female 14
Aren`t there laws about recording in a classroom? or recording without a person`s consent?
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Male 10,440
The kid is stupid, the teacher is not much better. And the judge is a creationist.

what can we deduce from this video?

America`s schools, judicial system and Fox news are all a piece of crap. It would be hilarious if it wasn`t so devastating.

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Male 118
faux news

that is all.

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Female 14
Aren`t there laws about recording in a classroom? or recording without a person`s consent?
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Male 1,825
If you believe in creationism you are a degenerate, thats how it works, simple as that. There is not a gray area in this.
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Female 381
The only reason that they won the suit was because the teacher specifically implied "creationism", which is discriminatory. otherwise it`s just freedom of speech.
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Male 976
I`m at ends on this one... I respect the teacher having his own opinions, but he executed explaining his opinions in a poor manner. I`m not completely against religious slander, but in the school or workplace, it`s just unprofessional.
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Female 381
The only reason that they won the suit was because the teacher specifically implied "creationism", which is discriminatory. otherwise it`s just freedom of speech.
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Male 663
I wish I had that teacher
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Male 17,511
This so called "professor" needs to get handed a pink slip. That was NOT teaching, He was doing, That was indoctrination.

His opinions had nothing to do with European History.

Getting sick and tired of these condescending know-it-alls thinking they are somehow "evolved" while thinking that everyone that is religious is a degenerate.

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Male 307
"Yeahright, people that believe in god can go die, it`s a load of superstitious bullpoo that has NO place in modern society. We would be 2 THOUDSAND years ahead on science if we hadn`t have had the religious dark ages with crusades and all that bollocks. "

ummm. wow. chill out there chief.


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Male 127
wow that teacher is pretty much an atheist douche. this is why agnostics hate associating with atheists. besides that, a high school teacher bringing up God goes against the whole separation of church and state. instead of preaching christianity, he`s merely doing the other side of the coin and preaching atheism which should be considered just as bad. atheism is just religion without god.
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Male 26
"Yeahright, people that believe in god can go die, it`s a load of superstitious bullpoo that has NO place in modern society. We would be 2 THOUDSAND years ahead on science if we hadn`t have had the religious dark ages with crusades and all that bollocks. "

The Dark Ages didn`t start from religious wars. Go back to school and learn how to respect people, thanks. As for the video, the teacher was kind of being disrespectful.

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Female 15,763
I like how my biology teacher said it on the first day of class.

"We aren`t going to be learning creationism because it isn`t science. Evolution is a theory and has gone through rigorous testing to be such, like many things taught in this class. Creationism is not a scientific theory and does not follow science, so regardless of any personal opinion it does not belong in a science classroom."

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Male 496
"At first i was like "what has the world come to?" but now i see that the kid`s suit was totally fine. i don`t like religion, but that guy was a dick, and of story. I don`t like listening to fox`s spin on the story, but when i think about it, it`s pretty much true. "

Yeahright, people that believe in god can go die, it`s a load of superstitious bullpoo that has NO place in modern society. We would be 2 THOUDSAND years ahead on science if we hadn`t have had the religious dark ages with crusades and all that bollocks.

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Male 121
I honestly see nothing wrong with what he says, yeah everyone has a right to opinion that means he does too. I thought we couldn`t have school and religion in class so why should this matter? You can argue after class if you don`t like what he says. If you can rightly speak about God then you can rightly speak out against God.
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Female 1,199
That guy is definitely out of line for giving his opinions like that in a school classroom. Where I went to high school teachers would get in big trouble if they ever did that, and were incredibly cautious to present both sides of the story or make themselves seem unbiased on either side. I loved my science teacher because he challenged us; he presented facts from both sides (creationism and evolution) and wasn`t bias at all. I had no idea which he was for really, and we all learned things we never knew before.

Of course I don`t fully trust Fox, but if it`s true then yeah... >_>; I think that guy is out of line here.

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Male 171
Sue the kid for sueing him, he`d probably win aswell
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Male 211
Frankly, most of what the teacher said is completely true, however, he has no right to make the comments in school.

I have one question though, WWJS? Who would Jesus sue?

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Male 524
At first i was like "what has the world come to?" but now i see that the kid`s suit was totally fine. i don`t like religion, but that guy was a dick, and of story. I don`t like listening to fox`s spin on the story, but when i think about it, it`s pretty much true.
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Male 362
no, they just put stickers in books saying that evolution is not based on fact. (watch penn and tellers bullpoo series)
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Female 74
goaliejerry-
Sorry, I didn`t see your post about this being from a high school until now. We never called our teachers "professor" when I was in high school, so I assumed it was at a university.
I`m not familiar with how these things work in high school. Sorry about the confusion.
Fortunately, I don`t plan on ever teaching high school.
Did the student ever speak with the principal regarding the matter? I think that would have been a more appropriate first step than suing.
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Male 187
whats next?, kids sueing teachers for teaching evolution?
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Male 7,933
"Of course it`s Fox reporting this story. "

Ad hominem

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Male 103
Of course it`s Fox reporting this story.
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Male 7,933
goalie jerry, are you a lawyer?

You seem to know alot about the law, more than the average person normally knows.

And on this he should have been fired, public officials can`t bash a religion like that in school. Especially since its not a religious class.

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Female 470
good for him! No one should be allowed to bash other peoples religious beliefs (or lack thereof, for that matter) , especially a teacher.
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Male 4,014
I was just just kidding, we`re all wrong sometimes....the only "thing" that could be "right" all the time is, philosophically speaking, GOD.
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Female 239
Teacher should have been fired not sued. Everyone has a right to their own opinion no matter how ridiculous it is.
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Male 2,076
don`t mean to imply that at all jerry :P lol just noticed that people are aghast that it happens and yet you`re not wrong.
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Male 2,076
"How does having to sit in a class and listen to your teach ramble on about his most hated subjects equal a need for his money?"

You listen to the end of the video? He can`t get the guy fired even though he was in the wrong, what else can he do but a civil suit?

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Male 4,014
"goaliejerry is actually correct"

That seems to imply I may at times be wrong...

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Male 4,014
Not all lawsuits are for money. Here, he was granted an injunction, which acts to forbid the teacher from doing this again (and in the larger picture, stops others from doing this).
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Male 914
christians, atheists, jews, muslims, followers of xenu, whatever...stop f-ing fighting and let`s just all respect each other as human beings. like it or not, WE ARE ALL JUST THE SAME PEOPLE. who gives a sh.t what you believe in, if anything. why are ppl so intelligent and yet so stupid at the same time? life is way short and way too precious to waste just hating one another.

love and respect your fellow man/woman. it`s really that simple.

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Male 2,076
goaliejerry is actually correct in this area, if your a public servant there are restrictions to what you can and can`t say.
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Male 4,014
Here, from Wikipedia "In Loco Parentis:"
"First, it allows institutions such as colleges and schools to act in the best interests of the students as they see fit, although NOT ALLOWING what would be considered violations of the students` CIVIL LIBERTIES.[1]"

I.e., can`t violate the FIRST AMENDMENT freedom from religious oppression/hostility.

Ok?

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Male 115
Those of you who have been here for a while know that I don`t like religion but I equally did not appreciate this mans preaching his unsupported extreme ideas to a class of students. I would have called the school board and had his arse kicked out of the school, maybe even black booked. Suing though? What is that supposed to do? How does having to sit in a class and listen to your teach ramble on about his most hated subjects equal a need for his money?
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Male 4,014
Nuerol - The US Supreme Court has held that the First Amendment also prevents government officials from taking any actions that make anyone feel like a religious outsider. LOOK IT UP.

YOU DO NOT SEEM TO GRASP THAT A GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL, ACTING AS IN LOCO PARENTIS, MAY NOT ACT HOSTILE TO RELIGION.

On your misunderstanding of the First Amendment, a teacher could tell children its his opinion that everyone should do heroin, and there is nothing anyone could do about it.

Freedom of speech has limits - just as you can`t yell fire in a theater (famous Judicial example), neither can a public school teacher ridicule a kid`s religion.

Your opinion is one thing - the law is another.

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Female 74
goaliejerry:
Also, freedom of religion in the first amendment is referring to the person`s ability to practice the religion of their choosing. The professor didn`t force the kid to convert or anything ridiculous like that. He merely expressed his views on religion, which is protected by freedom of speech. Stating your opinions on religion in no way violates freedom or religion.
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Male 4,014
Nuerol - yep, this was highschool. Mandatory. College is optional, thus its not a problem at the university level - people can choose what to hear. This kid had to be there.
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Male 541
"You mean getting crucified like Jesus and Christians in the Collusem?"

Yes....yes...that`s exactly what I mean. You get it now. O.o

For the record I totally agree with you on the neutral government and judiciary part(we`re actually studying the judiciary atm in my politics class so this is a pretty relative debate for me =P), I`m just expressing my opinion that suing someone is a pretty dick-ish move, especially from a Christian.

He can do whatever the hell he wants, I just don`t agree with him. Nor do I agree with what the teacher did.

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Female 74
goaliejerry:
There`s a little something called "academic freedom" at universities. As long as the professor states that whatever the are claiming is of their opinion, then they can say whatever they want. Look it up.
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Male 4,014
"he should stand up for his beliefs in other ways."

You mean getting crucified like Jesus and Christians in the Collusem? I kid of course, but my point remains - NO STUDENT (below college level) should EVER HAVE TO DEFEND A RELIGIOUS BELIEF AGAINST A PUBLIC AGENT.

Think about how that kid felt in front of his peers when his teacher singled him out for ridicule. That should never happen.

Courts exist to vindicate the Constitution. A right was violated, and the violation was properly remedied. Federal laws exist specifically to allow private citizens to sue to enforce their constitutional. Why would such laws exist if people were not allowed to use them? Do you think Federal Judges are ignorant of the law or the Constitution? Do you think this case would have proceeded if it were frivolous or meritless?

The beauty of a federal judge is he or she can do the right thing, regardless of whether the masses understand it (and they usually don`t).

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Female 437
Can I just point out that Religion plays such a massive part in European and any other history that it is impossible to teach it and not mention it. The thing about the peasants is quite true, religion is used all the time to influence the peasantry, accept it.
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Male 165
european history is all about the use of relegion to suppress the masses, i see nothing wrong here...
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Male 4,014
"People are overly sensitive and censoring a professor`s language violates his/her first ammendment rights."

Not when that person is acting as an agent of the government and is being openly hostile to religion in a public school setting.

I know my posts will get buried, but I respectfully suggest you do not understand either freedom of speech nor freedom of religion (BOTH OF WHICH ARE FIRST AMENDMENT ISSUES).

I am not a christian or a republican - I am an American, I love our constitution, and this ruling upholds it. Wonderful.

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Male 541
"Seriously, think about what you said - you think a CHILD should actually have to defend a deeply personal family belief"

A child? Look at him. He`s not 8 years old. Plus, he`d studying European history, a subject which would be studied by a senior student in high school, so I`m going to put him around 16/17 years. From my own experience, I know that from the age of 13/14 I could have easily stood up for my beliefs to anyone. Besides, he doesn`t seem to have any trouble defending himself and discussing the issue here on the news.

OK, I see what you`re saying, sure, he shouldn`t have to defend himself against a teacher of all people, he may be shy or quiet, but suing the teacher is still jumping the gun a little bit. There are other directions he could of taken and like I pointed out before, as a Christian, and I`m not trying to point the finger of judgement at him here, nobody`s perfect, but as a Christian, he should be prepared to stand up for his beliefs in other ways.

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Male 4,014
Ok, last post from me (Freedom of Religion is a Fundemental Right that gets me worked up)....

THIS CASE IS NOT ABOUT THE MERITS OF A RELIGIOUS VIEW. (Of course creationism is nonsense.) Its about the fact that the government may not attack a person for having a religious belief.

ALL THE LIBERALS HERE (of which young people tend to be) WOULD THINK DIFFERENTLY IF THIS TEACHER HAD TOLD A MUSLIM STUDENT THAT MOHAMMED WAS STUPID.

Be honest, you know its true.

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Female 74
This is ludicrous. People are overly sensitive and censoring a professor`s language violates his/her first ammendment rights. It was not discrimination as long as the professor`s biases had no bearing on the student`s grades, which it sounded like that wasn`t the issue. People have different opinions, and if you disagree you can either argue your point or suck it up and move on.
I`m on my way to becoming a professor of chemistry, and although I probably won`t get into philsophical/theological/political topics often, it disconcerts me to think that a student could SUE me for it.
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Male 4,014
Ohhhhh, I see what the problem is - the title of this post and the video references Creationism.

Creationism is incidental to the case.

The result would have been the same if the teacher had just said all Christians/Muslims/Buddists (you pick) were fat and stinky stupid heads.

Typical journalistic sensationalism. This wasn`t about teaching creationism, ITS ABOUT FREEDOM FROM RELIGIOUS OPPRESSION. Phrased that way, its not that controversial.

Honestly, this is something LIBERALS SHOULD BE HAPPY ABOUT. I know I am.

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Male 4,014
IMPORTANT FACT: KID DID NOT SUE FOR MONEY. Its not about greed, its about defending rights. Courts aren`t stupid (despite what a lot of people who don`t understand them think).

A FEDERAL JUDGE HELD THAT A PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER VIOLATES THE FIRST AMENDMENT WHEN HE CRITICIZED THE RELIGIOUS BELIEFS OF A CHILD IN CLASS.

This wasn`t a revolutionary ruling, nor was it all that surprising...

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Male 4,014
American public schools in general should shy away from anything but a survey of religions, without getting remotely close to advocating one, and never criticizing.

Look, personally, I think organized religion in general is naive. But I strongly believe in FREEDOM OF RELIGION, and that includes not having your teacher pick on you in front of your friends because your mom and dad make you goto chuch...

Webz said: "By the sounds of things he didn`t really stand up for his beliefs there"

Seriously, think about what you said - you think a CHILD should actually have to defend a deeply personal family belief from a government agent who says he (and by implication, his mom and dad) are stupid???? No Child Should Ever Have To Defend A Personal Belief From Attack By A Teacher.

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Male 99
"It needs to be taught in schools that evolution is FACT, based on EVIDENCE and that logically one cannot draw fact from creationism because of its 100% lack of factual evidence"

actualy where as you me and many many other people consider evolution as fact, it is still considered a theory due to the missing link (of course if the missing link has been/is ever found i`ll give good oods on it`ll be/been covered up)

This whole thing is contridictory in school had teachers opinions thrown onto me, hell we all had to say the lords prayer in assembly, which i personaly think is wrong, baring dedicated religous schools that kind of thing should has no place.
if your going to teach religion in schools then teach "christians believe.." but also teach them "budddhist believe.." etc so they when children are older they can choose for themselves

but anyway this whole situation is like many have said sue culture mixed with some kids petty a$$ parents sueing pe

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Male 118
Also Eldavo has a valid point, we`re supposed to be tolerant of pretty much everyone.
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Male 118
Usually when there`s a video, I can generally get a picture of what it was about from the comments. Not this time.
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Female 1,963
Goaliejerry, when I was at school in the states, they didn`t have religious education at all. I guess some schools do? But it certainly isn`t as common as in Finland. We get taught largely Christianity in elementary (although from a non-judgmental standpoint), and world religions in later years. We also have the option of studying Ethics instead.
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Male 4,014
People are conflating Creationism with Freedom from Religious Oppression.

The issus is NOT that the teacher was anti-creationist - creationism is ILLEGAL to teach is US schools. The issue is a government official cannot be overtly hostile to relgion - even more so in the sensitive context of teaching children.

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Male 2,148
nebbie: For the record, this newscast didn`t say he specifically violated the Constitution. However, the problem here is that the teacher, a government employee, did not show tolerance to all religions as mandated by the Constitution.
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Male 4,014
Honestly people, don`t knee jerk react.

THIS RULING ACTUALLY ALSO PREVENTS A CHRISTIAN PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER FROM EVER PUSHING THEIR RELIGION ON MY (eventual) KIDS.

Atheism = Religion = Christianity in the eyes of the US government, and none may be favored, and none may picked on. AMERICA IS GREAT AND FREE.

P.S. I am NOT a Christian, nor a Republican.

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Male 18
>GRadde

Yeah totally man. I don`t see why everyone has to drill their point through till like they feel like they have won. People believe something some people don`t. Big woop. Let`s move on. Pass me a beer...

Bit of a side-note but...
Anyone else think nowadays when some people state an opinion they go on about it like it was a stone-cold solid fact? Or is that just me?

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Male 105
Nebbie please read GoalieJerry`s posts. When acting as a government representive you lose certian rights. Military personnel are limited in their first amendment rights when speaking in an official capacity or to the media. (I was in the US Navy for 4 years)...
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Male 4,014
"I just think that America should have the same system of religious education that we have in Finland- where you simply learn about all religions, and what their believers believe. Without any judgment on what`s true or false."

WE (the US) DO. Thats why this case turned out this way.

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Male 353
Creationism is superstitious nonsence, but it shouldn`t have been brought up in school.
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Male 4,014
"How is he in violation of 1st amendment rights?!?"

Do you have any education whatsoever????

1st Amendment Begins: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

An inverse inferance the Courts have made from this is that Government may not be hostile to religion.

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Male 864
How is he in violation of 1st amendment rights?!? By exercising his freedom of speech? God I hate Fox News! News outlets are supposed to be an unbiased source of facts, and yet, Fox, one of the largest outlets, is intensely biased! I can`t even put into words how angry this makes me.
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Male 4,014
Kollo - you clearly don`t understand the importance of the America First Amendment.

NOTE: KID DID NOT SUE FOR MONEY - he sued to enjoin this teacher from being openly hostile to religion in class, and he won.

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Male 4,014
Creationism is an seperate issue and actually unrelated. Creationism may not be taught as SCIENCE, because its not.

CONSIDER THIS - lets say a public school teacher told athiest kids that they were stupid for not believing in god. THAT IS NO DIFFERENT THAN WHAT HAPPENED HERE.

Government nuetrality is the name of the game - BE HAPPY GOVERNMENT TAKES NO VIEW ON WHAT RELIGIONS ARE GOOD, BAD, OR OTHERWISE.

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Male 282
@ ImTakingOver... There is no black and white between creation and evolution. There are also different levels of the two mixed together. Look up Theistic Evolution and you`ll see what I mean.
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Female 1,963
As much as I agree with the teacher personally, he is totally out of line being that offensive in class. I don`t think any teacher has the right to say whether a certain religion is right or wrong. Evolution is a different matter, because it is a matter of fact. Religion can never be based on fact, and it shouldn`t be- that`s not the point.

I just think that America should have the same system of religious education that we have in Finland- where you simply learn about all religions, and what their believers believe. Without any judgment on what`s true or false.

In any other subject, the question of religion is misplaced.

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Male 4,014
THIS IS A VICTORY FOR THE CONSTITUTION. And I am an anti-creationist.

PEOPLE SHOULDN`T BE MAD AT THIS KID.

If you don`t want creationism is schools, neither should you want hostility towards religion in schools.

THE TOUCHSTONE IS GOVERNMENT NUETRALITY.

Wait...let me explain. I actually understand the establishment clause and a bit of the Supreme Court precednet on the matter.

Just as the United States Constitution prevents the teaching of creationism in schools, (i.e. No Gov`t Favoritism Of Religion), so to does it prevent government HOSTILITY towards it (i.e., government officials cannot favor NON-religion).

The key is GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT MAKE ANY PERSON FEEL LIKE AN OUTSIDER. Period.

This is NOT a free speach issue - this teacher can say what he wants, IN PUBLIC. But he cannot, as an agent of the government,advocate non-religion over religion.

This case was rightly decided.


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Female 395
number one, why the jinkies was that female presenter shouting?!

number two, in european history religion takes a HUGE role. almost everything is connected to religion back then. during our history classes at school we were taught these things. perhaps is this student took his head out of his arse and listened instead of thinking, `hmmm, there must be some way in which i can exploit this` and promptly taped the teachers classes. as well as history in school i had to take religion and we were not allowed to be athiest in these classes. when i wanted to drop the class because i did not agree with it i was informed they would suspend me without my taking my exams. I DIDN`T GO AROUND SUING!!!

number three, this cases shouldn`t have even made infront of a judge. they sould focus on things like rapist, paedophiles and murders instead.

ok, rant over, i`m all good now :-)

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Male 282
As a Christian, I`m happy that the boy won the lawsuit. HOWEVER, asking for damages is too much. So far, the settlement hasn`t been made, but the kid sued for damages, legal fees, and an injunction.

There is a time an place for everything. A class on Euro History is NOT the time nor the place to espouse your views on theology. The kid won because as the teacher is a government employee, he is not entitled to teach against religion in the classroom.

If you want a debate, then have a debate. Don`t get up in front of a class and rant against me telling me I`m foolish for my beliefs. That`s the kind of irrational thought that gets people in trouble.

And, yes, Christian teachers who bring their views to class do get sued constantly. Some science teachers have gotten fired because they refuse to teach evolution unless it`s mixed with creationism.

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Female 150
so many reasons why I`m an atheist...
<_>
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Male 388
It needs to be taught in schools that evolution is FACT, based on EVIDENCE and that logically one cannot draw fact from creationism because of its 100% lack of factual evidence.

there is no reason why this cannot be taught in schools. Its true.

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Male 559
Anyone that knows anything about European history knows that the dogma of the Catholic church is a direct cause for the way things happened.

Still, while I don`t think what he said or where he said it was inappropriate, he should have known better. Even if he was in California.

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Male 541
Usually I`d be up here defending Christianity but in this case, I`m not sure what to make of it. Sure, the teacher was shoving his views down the students throats (something that Christians are usually blamed for doing, just pointing out that it isn`t just us) but there was no need to sue him. By the sounds of things he didn`t really stand up for his beliefs there and then and instead just decided to sue him. And like some others have been saying, the principle of suing someone is highly `unChristain`, no matter what.

What I will say is don`t blame religion for this. Blame the rapidly increasing `sue-culture` in the developed world and the inability of people these days to deal with others who may disagree with their beliefs.

</rant>

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Male 3,310
Superstitions handed down from generation to generation. No proof is necessary, just having the "facts" drilled into you at a young age by people you trust is enough.
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Male 2,552
>Grae

I entirely agree that the sueing (is it spelt like that?) culture of today, and mostly in the US, is way out of bounds.

But I do think that what the teacher did was wrong, as it was as if he was stating facts when it was his opinion. I believe something, you may believe something else. I am fine with that. I do not feel a need to "make" you believe what I believe, so why can`t people just leave it at that.

That would be to both paries, for the kid to forgive and move on and know what he believes, and for the teacher to state what he believes as beliefs and not as facts.

Is that fair enough, can we try to do that?

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Male 352
lol christians r ghey.

Basically what I`m gathering from the comments.

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Male 18
"And if this was a Christian teacher speaking about Christian things I`m sure that you would say congratulations to the student for winning the lawsuit."

Well no actually, because taking someone to court over their religious views is just drated up, but typical of this "sue anything" culture we have today. If it was a christian teacher and a non-christian student, i don`t believe the non-christian should take them to court over some rant, whether or not they agree. I don`t sue when mormons knock at my door i just politely turn them away. I am not religious, it does annoy me off from time to time, but i have enough tact not to sue or complain when confronted with someones beliefs christain or not.

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Male 97
good for that kid! and im not only saying that cause i am also a devout Christian. Atleast in America we have the freedom to our religion and our opinions but there is a time and a place to speak those opinions and a history classroom is not the place.

id say the same about any other religion too.

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Male 1,788
"Huh seems to me the kid should use his christian values and forgive the teacher. But oh wait why bother when you can just use dial-a-lawyer and get some sort of payout. I don`t sue anyone when someone starts preaching at me- i just go to my happy place. F.ck religion."

And if this was a Christian teacher speaking about Christian things I`m sure that you would say congratulations to the student for winning the lawsuit.

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Male 123
Wow, I`m glad I`m not American.

"*gasp* I`m so offended!"
"Oh, you poor boy, we can`t have that. That teacher shouldn`t speak his mind!"

What the hell? There was NO discrimination whatsoever! Creationism, sold as science, IS religious superstitious nonsense.
Why is it so hard to do it like we do it over here? You disagree, you deal with it. You argue, you maybe have a verbal fight, and then that`s settled.
This is disgusting.

And why doesn`t it surprise me that apparently, they didn`t have the teacher on?

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Male 1,788
It`s dangerous territory when a teacher stops teaching the subject he`s supposed to and spews his own views.
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Male 127
There is a difference between calling people who believed the earth is flat is crazy, and calling creationism "superstitious nonsense". (People that are still around have witnessed to that fact that the earth is round with planes/satellites/boats/etc..)

Stating the creationist theory is superstitious nonsense is a religous belief- simple as that. Sure, there is evidence and conclusions that can be made that support the theory of evolution - but there is also debate on this in the scientific community - and of course evolution could BE the intelligent design that creationists speak of.

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Female 1,082
angua you took the words right out of my mouth. also, did anyone else think the kid looks a little like heath ledger?
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Male 18
Huh seems to me the kid should use his christian values and forgive the teacher. But oh wait why bother when you can just use dial-a-lawyer and get some sort of payout. I don`t sue anyone when someone starts preaching at me- i just go to my happy place. F.ck religion.
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Female 35
It doesn`t matter if you agree or disagree with him, personal opinions like that should not be in the classroom. If there was a teacher who started telling people that evolution was superstitious nonsense and liberals were dirty hippys who wanted to turn the country into a communist nation people would be upset.

You are in class to teach the subject at hand. Oreilly and Hannity are not history.

Now saying this, i`ve had my share of jackass teachers, we all have so suing just seems like a bad idea.

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Male 3,147
Baalthazaq, the quote was directed to Wraps earlier post about how relevent the peasants quote was to European history

Perhaps you can now tell me where the quote you just put up has been attributed to Napoleon on here?

It hasn`t been.

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Male 64
This is a facepalm situation. on the part of the teacher, he shouldn`t be so openly set against christianity, so i mean, if the kid got pissed off and told his mom, "My teacher is a dick" thatd be okay, but a lawsuit? the teacher isn`t inhibitting the kid`s ability to be christian. my ap euro teacher admitted to us that he is offended by gay people being allowed to get married, but i`m not suing him for it just because I don`t agree with him. situations like this are stupid
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Male 438
I had an economics lecturer at uni last year who was like this except everyone thought he was awesome lol
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Male 5,189
Blah blah blah.
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Female 455
I got halfway through the video and couldn`t listen to any more. `Subjected` to `rude` comments the teacher was `spouting` about Christianity? Seriously? Wonder what`d happen if an atheist tried the same thing with a Christian teacher.

What the hell happened to freedom of speech and freedom of religion (or lack thereof)?

It really can`t be argued that what he was saying had no place in the classroom. He was talking about god-fearing peasants at one point. That sounds a hell of a lot like European history to me.

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Male 4,546
Sorry, Napolean Bonaparte said "Conservatives don`t want women to avoid pregnancies... that`s the news, that`s not Oreilly and Hannity"?

Well if I`d known he was quoting Bonaparte I`d not have made any of those silly comments. I take it all back. FOX/Hannity/Oreilly are all extremely relevant to European history if they inspired Napoleon.

Got any links to demonstrate this?

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Male 4,546
Incidentally, I have argued against a teacher in my Islamic Studies class who stated that essentially "The 9/11 attackers were not Muslims".

I am fine with, and agree with, the statement that their actions were unislamic, go specifically against various teachings in the Quran and whatnot, however, Islam is quite clear that Man cannot decide who is and who is not a Muslim, and furthermore, by labelling them as "not Muslim" you unfairly place the blame on atheists.

I also apologized for this here back when I was...18.. ish.. about 8 years ago. Here.

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Male 1,550
Christian prick, so much for free speech.
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Male 3,147
Wrap, I agree completely.... it was Napoleon (Bonaparte, not Dynamite) that said

"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet"

if Napoleon isn`t relevant to European history, who is?

a few snippets that some whinger has taken offence to, doesn`t show the context in which they were intended.

mind you... you do have to be a bit thick to believe the universe was created in 6 days by what is essentially an imaginary friend.

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Female 53
I completely agree with Baalthazag on this one.

As a teacher, it is your responsibility and your job to teach the topic at hand to the best of your ability and not digress into your own personal opinions or beliefs. If you want to rant about something, get a blog.

Atheist, agnostic, theist--you are a teacher first in the halls of a secular school so you should teach your lesson as clearly and objectively as possible; end of story.

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Male 3
Wether or not you believe in creationism is NOT a political point . It is a question of facts, not opinions ! Only in America!
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Male 1,226
I`d say that this teacher shouldn`t speak out his opinion like that, because he`s in front of a class, and it probably has nothing to do with his subject. This kid however, should sue him for doing THAT, and not for bible bashing, because that`s still a good thing in my book!
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Female 8,058
Actually- what he says HAS relevance to the class he is teaching, plus, as I have said- one of the things one goes to school FOR is to learn to THINK for ones self. If you can think, and you disagree, you should argue back- rationally and with clear points. Politics affects our whole life, and despite the constitution of the US the separation of church and state is not so good- so maybe rather than getting all lawyered up the boy should have gone and learnt how to defend his beliefs?
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Male 436
Where`s the interview with the professor?

I`d like to hear his side of the story, not just some ignorant kid and his jackass of an attorney.

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Male 868
Okay, yeah, the teacher shouldn`t have spoke out of line but I find it ridiculous that this kid went to the courts. Went to the extent to frame his teacher and do God`s work, by ruining this man`s life. Seems very Christian like, I bet he`s enjoying all that money he received too. Ridiculous.
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Male 4,546
I was thinking the same thing. :)
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Male 2,440
Holy cheese noodle, Baalthazaq! We agree on something! :D

QUICK! Somebody post a picture making fun of atheists AND religious people! XD

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Male 2,440
Guessing this is a public school, the teacher was very out of line to express his political views in class and it was very wrong of him to express his opinions of religion and conversatives. With that said, the court`s ruling over his calling creationism "superstitious nonsense" is wrong. Would they file a suit if a geography teacher claimed flat-earthers were crazy? NO, NOT AT ALL. If his statement towards creationism wasn`t beyond just calling it bunk and not specifically poking all of Christianity (only poking fun at those who ARE creationists), then I see no problem with it.

I would boot the teacher over sharing his political views like that to the class, but not for calling creationism BS.

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Male 4,546
The creationism comment is the only one I found reasonable. The rest seems to be a constant out of place tirade of bigotry.

This is the exactly kind of preachy evangelical atheists that hurt the public opinion of other atheists.

Also, "What`s wrong, this guy is a totally rational, clever, smart, erudite, handsome, ...." You know nothing about this guy but that he agrees with your opinion on a single topic. That`s why you`re laying on the praise. There is nothing in the video to demonstrate any thought has gone into any of his opinions.

Isn`t that the basis of rational? The epistemology, not the conclusions? Even if (and this is a stretch) he is right about everything, that doesn`t make him rational.

Also: He`s rational because he agrees with me, is self serving irrationality of the highest level.

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Female 101
umm...yeah...non-religious folks get this sort of stuff from the religious folks everyday...
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Male 424
Religion was important in European history... It was a form of goverment using fear, suppression and salvation from ignorance to control people. Relgion has declined a great deal in recent years here. Once our prime minster said "god bless us" and his advisor whispered to him "This isn`t America" =D
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Male 3
That is unbelievable , its a sad day when a ruling like that can be made in a court of law. Subjected to??? haha fox news is hilarious . I always thought that being subjected to fact was the point of school. I concede that it can be uncomfortable to have a different view to your own rammed down your throat but the non-religious endure that torture every day from the religious!!
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Male 2
So why is this guy presenting his own political views? My theory is that many people in the US (Sorry about using prejudices here, but it’s based on statistics) believe in god, and it is therefore hard to accept that religion has been used as nothing but a tool to control the population. You can argue that the guy went too far, but I still think some of it was very relevant.
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Male 2
Well, you could argue that…
"How do you get the peasants to oppose something that is in their best interest? Religion. You have to have something that is irrational to counter the rational approach..”
...is relevant when teaching European history. I am in no way in expert in this subject, but I am from Europe after all, and this is basically what we are told in our history classes, when dealing with religion. I will not go into details (I probably would not be able to either), but religion was without a doubt used as a tool. The average peasant was not able to neither read or understand the bible, and it was not until (insert random year here) that people were able to read and interpret the bible themselves. This basically meant that those who were able to actually read the bible, also decided how it should be interpreted, and they were therefore able to make “the peasants oppose something that is in their best interest&#
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Female 723
"what the problem with this??
the man is a total rational, opinionated being. would it not be the same thing if some catholic bimbo came into the schools and was screaming jesus from the tops of her lungs?? THEN would it be such a controversy??

i think that he fox news needs to be burnt to teh ground. and that judge is a dumbass."

Exactly. Neither instance is correct and both situations should be rectified.

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Male 37
BAWWW he hurt mah feelings can I have mony nao?
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Female 723
"why is he talking like that in a high school though...? not saying he doesn`t have a right to his opinions, but a classroom isn`t the place for a teacher to be throwing their hat into the political ring. who knows, the kids could have been provoking this TO get it on tape, or the teacher could have been out of line on his own accord. either way, the personal views of the teacher should stay personal if he wants to make it at a public school."

I wholeheartedly agree. The teacher should have kept his angry opinions about religion out of the European History classroom. He`s free to believe what he desires about debatable things, same as his students; however, I am not convinced that a lawsuit was necessary.

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Female 268
what the problem with this??
the man is a total rational, opinionated being. would it not be the same thing if some catholic bimbo came into the schools and was screaming jesus from the tops of her lungs?? THEN would it be such a controversy??

i think that he fox news needs to be burnt to teh ground. and that judge is a dumbass.

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Female 129
WTF So can I sue every person who knocks on my door with their opinion on God, or thhe guy in the city who sings though a large amp every saturday in the city centre about Jesus, or the born again chrisitans who stand on their soap boxes and tell me how Jesus diesw for our sins? NO. BECAUSE THEY ARE ENTITILED TO AN OPINION. And so is this teacher. He`s giving his view on what is right. He isn`t brain washing them into only agreeing. Do you go into the RE lesson and convert to Sikh/Muslim/Jewish/Islam/Cristianity/Athiesm because you read what SOMEBODY declared as the only true belief? Gah! Sorry for the rant, it isn`t at anybody in here it`s just....gah!!!
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Male 203
It`s funny because God`s made up
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Female 535
Teach shouldn`a spouted off at the mouth during class. By all means - have the opinions, but your 11th grade history class is not a podium.
And why have they made the teacher into an evil person in this "news" report? To me, he actually sounds like he`d be an awesome teacher. At least he`s passionate. I would have loved my high school teachers to have even half the passion this guy has, even if they talked outta their ass for 45 minutes.
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Male 151
fox news attacking some soft target...and you don`t know a lot about law a$shole...fox news will look for any flimsy base to attack from
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Male 844
lol,"when you put on your "jesus glasses" you can`t seen the truth". This is so silly its just stupid.
If someone want`s to believe in something, they can. Its no-ones business to interfere unless it is self-destructive or destructive.

*ends my opinion*

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Female 8,058
Aw shoot I was going to kick off first!!!! What is so shocking- surely the teacher should be able to say this ( nothing new or shocking there) - perhaps the boy should learn to debate rationally rather than sue. Most teachers would relish a pupil with the wit and ability to counter his statement. Also- maybe the teacher felt this needed to be said.
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Male 1,297
why is he talking like that in a high school though...? not saying he doesn`t have a right to his opinions, but a classroom isn`t the place for a teacher to be throwing their hat into the political ring. who knows, the kids could have been provoking this TO get it on tape, or the teacher could have been out of line on his own accord. either way, the personal views of the teacher should stay personal if he wants to make it at a public school.
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Male 102
USA, why so pussy?
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Female 164
kid is both retarded and brainwashed. good combo. i say kill it
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Male 99
That teacher is pretty damn smart.
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Male 11,739
I am not even going to respond to this or follow the comments here. I can already tell where this is going.

The comments were not appropriate for this classroom. If it was a class that dealt with those topics, ok. Otherwise it`s out of place, whether you agree with the teacher or not.

I really don`t think the kid was recording hours and hours of class to get prepared for class. He was doing it to get prepared for the lawsuit and his 15 minutes of fame.

I tend to agree with the teacher on some points, but he shouldn`t have been making those points in that class.

OK, so I did respond. Sue me next.

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Male 6
science and religion are a waste of time to be teaching in class, it should be an elective not a mandatory class. More money should be going into other classes.
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Female 112
-Puts on her seatbelt-
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Male 28
He Is Right though that teacher! Also SUBJECTED TO, Religeon is stupid is nonsense
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Male 213
By the way I think that last Post was my 69th alriiiiight.. ..
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Male 213
Ugh Fox News ..... why do people have to be liberal or conservative? ..
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Male 125
And here, we, go!
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Male 20,920
Link: Kid Wins Over Teacher In Creationism Suit [Rate Link] - Student wins suit after teacher says that creationism is ‘superstitious nonsense’ and made Christian kids uncomfortable.
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