47 Million Year Old Human Link Discovered

Submitted by: Turnshroud 8 years ago in Science
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090519/sc_afp/usgermanynorwayarcheologysciencelead

Isn"t this now the oldest complete human link found?
There are 181 comments:
Female 3,828
lol i knew there would be a huge discussion up in here...
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Male 271
and by the way, don11817. Prepare to be insulted (perhaps even called "2 paper clips"), repeatedly assured you are stupid, and constantly told that the debate is at an end, wether you realised it or not.

i think your argument is spot on, look forward to seeing this one pan out!

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Male 5,189
404
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Female 165
It`s probably useless to write this now cause this debate is getting old but to odeed...By "evolution" I just meant change over time not actual adaptation like humans growing wings or something (though that would be awesome) because there is a difference between the two. So I just meant that our appendixes are getting smaller because they`re not being used anymore.
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Female 528
Ok "creationists", here`s the thing. Creationism is not a scientific theory because there is no compelling physical evidence (the bible is historical evidence, not physical) to support it. In fact there is a lot of evidence to suggest it`s not true. It is a debunked theory. Evolution is a very well supported scientific theory. There is positively mountains of evidence to support it. Subsequent discoveries in many other areas of science have fitted very nicely into the the theory. The chances of there being this much supportive evidence and it not being true is miniscule. Thus so many scientists believe evolution is the most likely theory for the origin of life. Come back when you`ve read "The Blind Watchmaker". If you can read that and still deny the logic please tell me who brainwashed you. I would like to get together with them and start a cult and make lots of money.
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Male 12,138
"There is an awful lot I deliberately leave out of my posts, davymid. I do this to ensure that the only reason someone would have for not replying is because they simply cannot form a compelling enough argument."

I know and fully agree, Overmann. I think that`s why there`s a relative dearth of young-earth creationists around here (compared to what it used to be like, in the heady days of Overmann Medal fame). I think they`ve been scared off by the application of cold logic.

Anyways, thread`s dead, have to wait for the next one...

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Male 2,605
"Overmann, I think you expect too much."

There is an awful lot I deliberately leave out of my posts, davymid. I do this to ensure that the only reason someone would have for not replying is because they simply cannot form a compelling enough argument. If you are anything but extremely polite to someone you want to portray as an utter ignoramus, the best way of doing so is not to upset him. It is not my intention for my subtlety to be seen as shallowness.

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Male 12,138
Overmann, I think you expect too much. When a mid-table carnivore unexpectedly meets a significantly larger carnivore in the same cave, the former is likely to retreat to safer hunting grounds.
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Male 2,605
don11817, I am still awaiting a response to you from my question of whether you believe life had multiple origins on Earth. And as I have not been rude to you, you cannot justify that as a reason to not respond. Your continued silence on the matter doesn`t cast you in any advantageous light.
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Male 237
"I think we need to define "Creationism" here: Creationism refers to a belief in a religious story taken as literal history/science, it is Not the idea that god(s) had something to do with the universe. The former looks at genesis as a historical account and a science lesson at the same time-the latter is mere theism and does not conflict with science.

The only thing evolution precludes is a literal reading of genesis (Or indeed any other creation account) it does not discredit theism all together. In fact some Xians can even have their mind and use it too while still being religious."


THANK

YOU

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Male 271
does creationism mean the christian god?

i just thought it meant, creation---ism, as in, the world was created by any god....

i might be wrong, but it doesnt make much sense

for instance... if you`re a christian, you`d could call yourself a creationist... what about a muslim?

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Female 2,228
I think we need to define "Creationism" here: Creationism refers to a belief in a religious story taken as literal history/science, it is Not the idea that god(s) had something to do with the universe. The former looks at genesis as a historical account and a science lesson at the same time-the latter is mere theism and does not conflict with science.

The only thing evolution precludes is a literal reading of genesis (Or indeed any other creation account) it does not discredit theism all together. In fact some Xians can even have their mind and use it too while still being religious.

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Male 271
different theories of abiogenisis have been discredited, whilst there are new ones all the time, they are by no means concrete.

Furthermore, abiogenisis is not evolution. They are seperate theories. So when you say evolution can denounce creationism, then you say it can`t but some other theory can (abiogenisis)... then it smacks of exactly my point. ANYTHING BUT CREATIONISM WILL DO!!!

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Male 353
"fact is, neither has enough to denounce the other, but there is easily enough venom and bad feeling to cover for that small issue!"

I`m pretty damn sure evolution has enough evidence to denounce creationism. The particulars have to do with abiogenesis which evolution doesn`t have much to do with.

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Male 271
it only has to be evolution vs creationism because both camps are so stubborn, and indoctrinated (en masse).

evolutionists believe that creationists are an affront to intelligence and all the evidence that evolution has, and creationists believe that evolutionists are heathens (at least the christian ones do) or relying on scientific evidence that requires leaps of faith to be complete.

fact is, neither has enough to denounce the other, but there is easily enough venom and bad feeling to cover for that small issue!

so if you come on here, telling people that evolution isn`t sufficient to explain how life got here, and the amazing difference between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom etc etc then you`dd be told all about how you should go to school, read a book (by dawkins or something).

and if you tell people that the bible is an unproveable relic that does not fit with scientific method as a proof, and that evolution is an evidenced phenomena, you get rebuked too!

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Male 271
SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Seriously, does it have to be `Creation vs. Evolution`? I mean, I believe in both.

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Male 12,138
vv "I, personally, am on the Creationist side of the fence... I believe what I beleive - but I know that it`s not going to change the mind of 99% of the Evolutionists out there"

There`s no such thing an "Evolutionist". Just call us scientists. Seriously. It`d make so much more sense for all parties involved.

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Male 112
Bah, evelution FTW. If, there is a `God`, and if he did `love us` then there wouldn`t disaster. Christians tell me `When he/she died, God had better plans for them` or something. It`s too hard to believe, and now the new link has been found, it might as well prove it.
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Male 12
"snack, we use sleep to recharge, re-fuel and such. But was it evolution? Or was it instsinct?"

You can recharge by just sitting still. I`m saying that potentially, animals can just sit there all night, like they were sleeping, but with their eyes open like Gandalf. Since this didn`t happen, it means the sleep is, or is connected to, something fundamental in the brain.

"Blindly believing in something, and refusing to acknowledge anything else? I think you just put the nail in your own coffin there."

Evolution, and all the other theories, can be disproved. If a sheep skeleton was found to date back to the age of the dinosaurs, then evolution is wrong. If an apple falls up, then the theory of gravity is wrong. Scientists throw away theories all the time, like the one about light traveling through ether. Its just evolution has a huge amount of supporting evidence.

The "belief" in a theory is not blind faith, its just accepting observable reality.

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Male 3,369
I`m guessing that creationist are thick as pigsh*t!
Really! Even when they argue against the "not as much of a theory as you think" of evolution they are still ignoring the big bang theory, geology, carbon dating, DNA, medical science, natural history etc etc etc!

Forget all the "theorys"..It must take hard work to close your mind to all the factual evidence!

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Male 452
"evolution is a theory just like gravity or cells! it`s not a religion. do you "believe" in gravity?no! you don`t "believe" in evolution, it just IS."

Blindly believing in something, and refusing to acknowledge anything else? I think you just put the nail in your own coffin there.

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Male 187
Again My Only Line And Only Respond
I SHALL ALWAYS BELIEVE EVOLUTION, GOOOO!!! DARWIN!!!!!
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Male 12,138
Dogs, on the other hand, from Irish Greyhounds to Chihuahuas, are all part of the same species as the common wolf (Canis lupus). We know that because we have such a clear record of their evolutionary history - in the case of dogs, it is intimately ties to our own recent past. However, if palaeontologists in a million years from now were to dig up a fossil chihuahua and a fossil wolfhound, would they have been classed as the exact same species?

Point I`m trying to make is that evolution is a natural biological process, where animals and plants deviate from their ancestors due to environmental or artificial (in the case of our dogs and sheep above) pressures. Lyellian taxonomy is an artificial human construct on top of that. So be careful when you say ""Let`s all remember that there`s a difference between Evolution within a Species, and one Species evolving into another". I content that there`s not. Or if there is, it`s just a matter of time. Literally.

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Male 12,138
vv "Let`s all remember that there`s a difference between Evolution within a Species, and one Species evolving into another. also krischans suk theyr so dum lololol"

Ignoring the second part of your post (Christian disguised as troll?), I`ll address the first part.

No, there really IS no fundamental difference between the two. Remember that what we define as a "Species" is really just a man-made classification, one of the taxonomic ranks. Evolution neither "knows" nor "cares" when an animal or plant has evolved enough for it to be a distinct species, only that it has diverged from its ancestor by evolutionary processes. At which point we decide to call two different animals different "species" is a bit arbritary.

For example, domestic sheep (Ovis aries) are unable to mate with their wild progenitor sheep (Ovis orientalis) after millenia of domestication and animal husbandry. These are now considered separate species. (cont.)

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Female 4,225
You DO realize that we witness evolution every say right?

Why do you think we always have to come up with better flu vacines?
____________

snack, we use sleep to recharge, re-fuel and such. But was it evolution? Or was it instsinct?

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Male 12
I don`t know why people do not comprehend evolution, it seems so obvious.

What I find really really interesting is how animals have not evolved to live without sleep. Logically, prey should be awake all the time to look out for predators. The more awake they are, the less likely they will be eaten. Sure, sleep = rest, but they can just stay still to rest. This means that there is some flawed/ingenious design in brain architecture that forces the need for sleep, or that sleep is a byproduct of a necessary process, much like plants need to be green since chloroplasts are green.

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Male 352
Let`s all remember that there`s a difference between Evolution within a Species, and one Species evolving into another.

also krischans suk theyr so dum lololol

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Female 540
amen luet_seer! and do you type at the speed of light or did you copy/paste from a previous work?
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Male 117
The fun part is that these bones were already discovered 25 years ago and no one really cared about them...

poor thingy; has missed Britney`s greatest moments, lol

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Male 361
rubored
dude i have been reading over your posts and i have decided you are a idiot
The theory IS NOT that people descended from a monkey but it is a series of genetic mutations over the course of hundreds of millions of years that has formed all life on Earth. It had much more proof than a 900 year old book writted by man because in reality one is a theory that has helped us to better understand who we are and the other is a fairy tale.
If you are a creationist and don`t believe in evolution then you would of been one of the people who used to think the world is flat and sun revolves around the universe. You are slowing down the progress of humanity which makes you a jackas*.
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Female 45
I am not an expert, and I cannot definitively argue that yes, every current working intricacy of the theory of evolution is entirely 100% correct, but I do believe that certain backbones to the theory have held under extensive testing by many objective scientists over several years. The theory has changed over time, and will most definitely continue to evolve into a more accurate depiction of the actual phenomena, but at no point in time does a theory ever state that what it proposes is a definite fact to the strictest sense of the word. Facts do not exist if you hold the sense of the word to be undeniable truths that will hold over any period of time.
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Female 45
This might be true were it not for the fact that the evidence is overwhelmingly in the favor that certain tenets of evolution are almost undeniably true. Not admitting so and saying so in a scientific seminar is the same as arguing at a seminar that when you jump off a cliff you will not necessarily fall. You may not agree with these views based on religious reasons, but science cannot accept things without evidence. No one has brought forth sufficient scientific evidence that mutations do not indeed happen, or that DNA is not the blueprint, or that there is not indeed one original single ancestor for all living creatures present some billions of years ago. The fact of the matter is that evolution and biology are extremely complex subjects that require years of study and research before one could attempt to rationally discuss evolution.
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Female 45
Common arguments against this are due to an extreme lack of thought. I find it hard to believe that someone could seriously hope to attack a view based on personal observation of something without studying it a little. Do you think that you can somehow read a Wikipedia page of a science topic for five minutes and have a credible opinion on a subject? This would be the same as deciding the earth is flat simply because everywhere you have traveled, the earth looks pretty flat or that the moon and sun are the same size because they appear to be so in the sky. People argue that evolution is sacrosanct or self-righteous because scientists criticize scientists for having opposing views.
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Male 12,138
Holy Biology Lesson, Batman!
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Female 45
Most of evolutionary changes seen over time are the result of various other topics such as meiotic recombination (before reproduction, DNA strands are rearranged so that a child receives a random mixture of genes from both the father and the mother in a nutshell), genetic drift, and other phenomena. But the idea resides that alterations in DNA or the programming of life, can account for how species change and delineate over time. The tenet of evolution is that these random mutations occur over time, and based on environmental conditions, the traits that don’t kill an organism and somehow allow that organism to reproduce more often (basically, it’s copy of the DNA gets passed on more often) most often prevail. I really do not see how people can argue with this at all.
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Female 45
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Female 45
As with the analogy to McDonalds, even if one McDonalds in a country starts acting a little bizarre, this does not have to affect the entire country. The same holds to multi-cellular organisms such as humans. If one of your cells begins to function improperly, the most likely case is that it will not affect the survival of the greater being or really even have an effect at all. This might lead credence to the belief that mutations do not have an effect at all on macroscopic organism properties described by the theory of evolution. However, mutations are happening all the time in all cells. Moreover, if a mutation happens early in development, then all cells that descend from that mutated cell will contain such a mutation. This entire process is how random mutations can occur stated very, very briefly and simply to the best of my knowledge.

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Female 45
Because proteins are highly specified molecules, small mutations in their structure can easily lead to drastic local changes. Imagine if suddenly in one town, a McDonalds microwave suddenly began to overcook burgers. Or imagine that if you tried to get coke out of the tap and nothing happened. These situations seems mostly harmless, but imagine if something happens such that whenever someone tries to order at this McDonalds, the employee simply shoots you. This would be a drastic change. This is very similar to what might happen with an altered protein. Say for instance that in a cell, a protein necessary to digest glucose was needed, but instead the desired for protein had no effect due to a change in structure. The cell would no longer be able to process glucose. However, if another base pair had been altered in the code for the same protein, there might have been no effect at all. Simple mutations can potentially ruin a cell, but most mutations have very little immediate effect.
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Female 45
This is where mutations come in. Mutations in DNA change the programming for one or more proteins that are produced and used within the body. This can happen due to various internal and external phenomena. The replication process for DNA (occurs when new cells are formed). Is not perfect, and is subject to random errors. Think of these as spelling and punctuation errors when you are writing something. The process of replication for most organisms is highly accurate, but no process is perfect, and random mutations due occur simply as a fact of nature. Also, many external factors such as radiation (UV rays for ex.) can also produce mutations)

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Female 45
Basically, DNA comes pre-housed in a brilliant factory that we call the cell. The cell is very complex, but essentially, it serves as the functional unit for all life we know today. This means that every organism classified by scientists as living is comprised of at least one type of cell and has DNA of its own. (Prions and viruses are tricky, and I cannot explain how they classify as life or not) DNA encodes in the base pairs information on how to produce another interesting molecule called a protein. Proteins basically do everything in a cell. They build all the structures of the cell, facilitate reactions, replicate DNA, etc. However, proteins are programmed based on DNA to do very, very specific tasks.
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Female 45

On the subject of DNA: DNA has been established by Watson and Crick, along with a lot of other scientists’ work such as Rosalind Franklin to have a helical structure (Btw, Watson and Crick were dicks for stealing aforementioned woman’s work). It looks something like this:


http://www.ocean.udel.edu/extreme2004/ge...

There are two intertwining strands of information in the form of base pairs. Instead of computers with a binary system, DNA encodes its information in a quaternary system with four different symbols to convey information. These base pairs are Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, and Thymine.

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Female 45
To clarify for people who have not taken biology: DNA or deoxyribonucleic acids are akin to the blueprints of life on earth. It has been tested numerous times and established that this is true. If you do not believe this, please do some scientific research yourself. I believe this is true about as much as I believe the earth is round and that the earth revolves around the sun. Sure, I can’t prove it entirely myself (and to all you supposedly smart people out there who must regard me as an idiot for not being able to prove that the world is round, think a little about how many times you’ve done the rigorous geometric calculations necessary to prove this), but I sure as hell am not going to question something that has been so firmly subject to centuries and decades of scrutiny by some of the greatest minds ever produced.
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Female 45
Evolution happens, as mentioned several times throughout the forum, as a series of micro-steps or changes in species. These can all be attributed to mutations in DNA. Literally, everything in evolution can be traced back to the simple concept of mutations in DNA and the effects of these mutations. These effects can range from very small or negligible deviations such as your hair growing a millimeter per year slower to very visible effects such as changes in body morphology (deformities).
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Female 45
As a prelude I 1) particularly like arguments over evolution, 2) find most people (including myself on topics I have not researched at all) to be dreadfully uninformed about modern science topics, and 3) have just finished finals and am in the mood to do a lot of nothing before getting absolutely hammered tonight. I am not doing this because I feel in any way that I am better than anyone on this forum, or that I feel that I am actually right about evolution. Rather, these are simply my thoughts on the matter from a mixed background (I was raised in the bible belt, held strong Christian beliefs, and have since lived in an extremely liberal environment attending a respected engineering school). Also, I am extraordinarily bored. With that in mind, here is my spiel.
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Female 540
evolution is a theory just like gravity or cells! it`s not a religion. do you "believe" in gravity?no! you don`t "believe" in evolution, it just IS.
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Male 353
This may help people understand theories a little better. It`s not perfect but hopefully it helps.

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Male 1,270
"Whether you believe you are descended from a monkey, or you believe that God created you in his own glorious image, either way.."

In that case, God is one ugly S.O.B!

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Female 4,039
Pmarren "That thing looks a LOT like my ex-wife"
LOL - no wonder you hate cats!
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Male 2,125
"Evolution doesn`t exist. I don`t believe in it. If you do, it could quite mean you don`t believe in Jesus or Christianity."

Evolution not existing is all your opinion. That`s what you wanna believe then fine. You have to understand that there ARE other religions out there that don`t believe in evolution and not all of them believe in Jesus or follow Christianity. Please do kindly open up and get to know the world around you.
Thank You.

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Male 12,138
[quote]JESUS LOVES YOU.[/quote]

No he doesn`t. I`m a Jew.

Seriously though, I fail to see why evolution is such a threat to some people`s religion. I mean this respectfully: If one is religious, then why can`t one accept that evolution is just [insert diety/ies here]`s plan of how life changes on the planet? The Theory of Evolution attempts to explain the diversity of life on the planet, that`s all. If one believes in a higher power behind that mechanism, then fine, so be it. I have no problem with that.

But to close your eyes tightly and stick your fingers in your ears and sing "Lalalala" every time you see evidence of evolution is akin to not believing that the sky is blue or the world is round. Sorry, but it is very deeply retarded.

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Male 353
"Evolution doesn`t exist. I don`t believe in it. If you do, it could quite mean you don`t believe in Jesus or Christianity.

Whether you believe you are descended from a monkey, or you believe that God created you in his own glorious image, either way.."

What would give you the idea that people who except the facts of evolution think they are descended from a monkey?

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Male 165
Evolution doesn`t exist. I don`t believe in it. If you do, it could quite mean you don`t believe in Jesus or Christianity.

Whether you believe you are descended from a monkey, or you believe that God created you in his own glorious image, either way..

JESUS LOVES YOU.

:)

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Male 12,138
vv What has Jesus got to do with this fossil?
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Male 165
Again, I`ll respond to this..

Jesus loves you.

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Male 237
"saw this on BBC world, Evolution has more proof than religion"

I would agree that evolution has much, much more proof than CREATIONISM, but you have to remember that for a good portion of us living outside the Bible Belt, we`ve come to accept Evolution and move on. Evolution > Creationism, it`s pretty clear to anyone allowed to think freely.

However, to say Evolution has more proof than Religion is a huge claim. Evolution does away with outdated theories of man`s origin. Evolution and Creationism are measurable, testable, and one of them fails hard and fast.

Spirituality/Prayer/Emotions can`t be charted and graphed, and as such, anyone who ever experiences some sort of Spiritual moment will never be able to take a polaroid of it and make the world believe it happened (not that emotions are in any way the whole religion.)

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Male 4,593
That thing looks a LOT like my ex-wife.
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Male 12,138
It`s an over-used quote, but it`s relevant here:
"Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; its aim is to knock all the pieces over, crap all over the board, and fly back to its flock to claim victory."

- Scott D. Weitzenhoffer

Look, there`s whole BRANCHES of science that support evolution. From genetics, palaeontology, anthropology, germ theory, geology, computer science, virology, ecology, biochemistry...

Debating Evolutionary Theory is entirely valid. As is debating Gravitational Theory. On the other hand, suggesting that the FACT of Evolution (put simply, that species change over time) does not occur or exist is like saying you don`t believe Gravity occurs or exists. It is ridiculous in the extreme.

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Male 353
Quackor

The THEORY of evolution will probably never be a law. Just like the THEORY of gravity probably never will. Theories encompass facts.

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Male 353
The Maddog

Another analogy could be dumping a jigsaw puzzle over your town from a helicopter and trying to find all the pieces at night. Currently we`ve only found a few pieces that fit together, but they do fit and we are starting to see the bigger picture.

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Female 2,228
Oh come on, you know everybody at IAB loves this stuff anyway, otherwise why would it continually appear? It`s like stalking a particularly slow tasty animal, no one can resist.
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Male 3,369
Sad isnt it Nidonemo!

Anyway..I`m off to watch the new Star trek movie!

Have fun banging your heads against the walls!

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Male 9,305
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Male 3,369
Not far off GHudston.

As I said earlier in the thread, Fossils are hard to come by. Transitional fossils even harder.

The following is a reasonable anology I suppose!

If, for example, imagine a flip book that leads from this fossil to cavemen! This fossile is picture 1 and we humans (as cavemen) are picture 100`000, we have mayby 50 pictures of what happened in between! (Dont forget..this is only an anology).

The amount of transitonal human fossils found to date wouldnt even fill the back of a humvee!

Not a lot is it! Now the pictures do seem to fit, but we dont know if these pictures ended up being us or another species that died out.

As most people know (appart from pig headed creationists) we share DNA with the ape family. So we can prove we share a common ancestory.
But because we cant travel back and physically see it happen, it will allways remain a theory!

The above barely scrathes the information out there, and I`m not good at explaining it! But I get it!

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Female 2,228
Quackor, we`ve been over the meaning of Theory

and nowGaps

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Male 2,855
But we still find lots of other fossils, but the gap is still there, while the extremes are filled, let me illustrate ----( . )-----

Thats why the theory of evolutions keeps being a theory, even a scientist cant say "heyy we havent found the link between humans and lemurs, but im just gonna say its difficult to find a well preserved fossil, BUT I KNOW IT GOTTA BE THERE"

Just because its hard to find, but a theory we came up points it gotta exist doesnt mean it exists. Otherwise unicorns exists by that logic. and that would be awesome!

Fact is we havent found it yet. That lemur has yet to be studied.

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Male 844
saw this on BBC world, Evolution has more proof than religion
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Male 182
@Quackor

I think he means that the world is an unimaginably huge place and many millions of years is an unimaginably large period of time (as in so large that our brains can`t actually really imagine it in any kind of scale). So of course it`s taken us so long to find a SINGLE example of something that is essentially a one of a kind specimin.

You have to realise that fossils aren`t found that frequently, those that are found are usually either extremely common or damaged and that doesn`t include the countless fossils which simply aren`t preserved at all. Not everything leaves a permanent mark in any tangible way.

Finding something as specific as this "lemur with thumbs" in such a complete state is nothing short of amazing and must have been like, to quote Blackadder, "finding a piece of hay in an incredibly large stack of needles"

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Male 813
Nah, trying to explain why it is very difficult to find something millions of years old in good condition to someone who doesn`t immediately understand, is like trying to teach calculus to a retard. It just can`t be done.
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Male 2,855
Explain yourself, MechBFP, maybe our sense differs from one another
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Male 813
"so many million of years of evolution and we have only found 1 lemur with thumbs?"

I`m not sure if you read the " many million of years" part of your post. That should be pretty self explanatory to anyone with the slightest bit of sense.

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Male 2,855
Maddog,
There is the missing link part, I mean... so many million of years of evolution and we have only found 1 lemur with thumbs? Theory of evolution is the theory that best explains what happened, but I dont take it as absolute truth.

Pretty much the same as the theory of gravity, we still have no idea how gravitons work or even if they exist, but we can predict something will fall if we drop it.

Ok, so its just plain luck our appendices are getting smaller, how does evolution fit there?

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Male 182
"Why do we bother to argue about this anyway?"

Firstly, I suppose I am an "Evolutionist". However, evolution isn`t, and should not be seen as, an "ism". It`s not a religion. Something inspired Darwin to think of the theory of evolution, then he will have sought to prove this theory (or disprove it if that had been the case.)

There is nothing about evolution that makes it incompatible with any religion, nothing to threaten punishment for not following it`s teachings. The argument happens because evolution just happens to be at odds with what is written in the bible.

If the bible has said that we are held to the earth by some heavenly force from above, there would be heated debates about gravity too.

The fact is that evolution (and in fact, all science) casts doubt over any faith because they are polar opposites of each other. One seeks to learn the truth about existence and the other believes that it already knows it despite overwhelming evidence t

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Male 353
THEORY of GRAVITY : Based on Laws of Attraction
THEORY of EVOLUTION : Based on Facts of change over time.

Observation: Every swan I`ve ever seen is white.
Hypothesis: All swans must be white.
Test: A random sampling of swans from each continent where swans are indigenous produces only white swans.
Publication: "My global research has indicated that swans are always white, wherever they are observed."
Verification: Every swan any other scientist has ever observed in any country has always been white.
Theory: All swans are white.

Evolution is A THEORY BASED ON FACTS. Get a book and not one filled with fairy tales.

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Male 3,369
Quackor. Sorry to dissapoint but evolutions isnt "survival of the fittest". That phrase was coined by Herbert Spencer when he first read Darwins book.
It is a metaphor, not a scientific description, and is both incomplete and misleading!

Natural selection isnt even a good description.
Even the fittests, strongest species can die out!
It`s very hard to explain in short time but, for lack of a better description, evolution could easily be described as much pure luck as survival of the fittest. It`s driven as much by external enviromental changes as it is by internal changes.

I wish I could explain it better!


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Male 3,369
Wow...just wow! I really didnt realise there was so many ignorant people here!

Firstly, the diffrence between a
theory and hypothesis

Please pay close attention to the fact that a theory incorporates facts, laws, predictions, and tested hypothese!

Evolution has overwhelming evidence supporting it, and when taking into account the concept of, for lack of a better phrase, deep time, the picture fits.

I belive that picture to be accurate but it`s a considerably complex picture that many people simply dont see or understand.

I`m not prepared to write a science paper to prove my argument or justify why I belive this, but this much is for sure!
There is ZERO evidence to contradict evolution, just pathetic counter arguments from religious zealots! There is NO proof we where created out of thin air by some higher being! None at

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Male 2,855
"For further proof of evolution we only need to look at ourselves. Our appendixes are getting smaller because they`re no longer needed. In a few thousand years they`ll probably be almost non existant"

Sadly, your supposition is wrong, evolution means survival of the fittest, how is a smaller appendix make you have sex with more women? Dont get me wrong, Im not a creationist, but I also dont make false assumptions about evolution to get my point through

Dagaz, stop posting.

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Male 271
"If people keep questioning science, without actually doing any form of research, they should be banned from using all technology and medicine.
(PETA supporters also banned, their annoying)."

if people keep using the english language, without actually learning the difference between there, their and they`re, they should be banned from all forums and debates.

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Male 17
I do believe in evolution, but I have to say I would like to see different teams studying the fossile itself, so it can be proven as a real fossile...

@creatonists: evolution theory doesnt try to prove god doesnt exist, or how life initiated.
Evolution theory is just a way to explain how species evolved and evolve...

"The foolish reject what they see and not what they think;
the wise reject what they think and not what they see."

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Male 14,331

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Female 382
if gravity was a theory that can`t be proven....they why is jumping off a cliff a sure-fire way to kill or at the very least critically hurt yourself? because you will ALWAYS FALL. Has anyone EVER let go of an object and then watched it go up,excluding the aid of gravitation distortion of the likes astronauts train in? PWNED!!!
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Male 424
If people keep questioning science, without actually doing any form of research, they should be banned from using all technology and medicine.

(PETA supporters also banned, their annoying).

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Male 813
Also note the "Problems_with_Newton.27s_theory" section. The fact that there are problems prove our theory is not complete.

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Male 813
Dagaz20, that`s the law of universal gravitation. The theory of gravity is a separate matter concerning WHY that law hold true.
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Male 452
Oh, and don11817, you`re doing an awesome job...
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Male 452
That was directed at `Brandy Snap,` BTW...
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Male 86
Quoting wikipedia--Brilliant!! Oh by the way-- I can type anythig I want in there too so people will believe when I quote it... That is, except for the people who understand that wikipedia is a public forum and open to public editing...

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Male 452
I`ll explain, and I must tell you, i am not 100% on the modern theory of evolution, although it holds a fair amount of water. Evolution works via natural selection, essentially, it is anything that makes a creature live for longer, and thus produce more offspring, and continuing that genetic defect. Human`s have broken evolution, because of modern medicine, there is essentially no difference between the life span of people across a demographic. People would actually have to be regularly dying from having an appendix, and people would have to be born without one to evolve. The only way evolution can really work in a modern country, is on a superficial level, essentially, attractiveness, more beautiful people get a higher chance to `breed` (disquietingly clinical, I know). So, unless not having an appendix makes you more attractive, you are entirely wrong.
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Female 382
@davymid
*sigh* gravity is a law....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newt...
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Male 339
Why do we bother to argue about this anyway? Evolutionist are 100% convinced they are right, and Creationists are 100% convinced they are right.

I, personally, am on the Creationism side of the fence (and what a tall fence that is that seperates us). I could talk until I turn blue in the face why I believe what I beleive - but I know that it`s not going to change the mind of 99% of the Evolutionists out there. Anyone want to volunteer to die, then come back and tell us what they found? I guess that`s really the only "scientific" way to find out.

I`ll say this, though, it seems like an "odd coincidence" that as the world celebrates Darwin`s 200th birthday that this "discovery" is revealed. It would be, to Evolutionists, like revealing on Christmas day that Noah`s Ark had been discovered. Something to think about. Like I said before, I want this thing be publically studied before I draw any conclusions.

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Male 452
"For further proof of evolution we only need to look at ourselves. Our appendixes are getting smaller because they`re no longer needed. In a few thousand years they`ll probably be almost non existant"

Ok, before you make claims like that, at least understand the theory...

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Male 339
Despite all the obvious controvery surrounding this, a small group of scientists studying something in private for 2 years makes me very skeptical. Reminds me of that bigfoot hoax a year ago when those guys said they`d been keeping the body in the freezer.

Let the thing be studied more publicly, then we can debate all we want.

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Male 813
Technically people are out there disproving the theory of gravity since gravity is not yet well understood. It will be a far amount of years before string theory can fully explain gravity and where it comes from.
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Male 12,138
vv "gravity isn`t a theory, it`a a law...the LAW of gravity"

No, it`s a Theory. And thus has the same scientific "weight" (no pun intended) as Theory of Evolution. Yet no-one`s out there disputing Gravity (at least, I hope not!).

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Male 86
Typical. Call names, make insults--and I never said religion didn`t do those things--if anything I have been very outspoken against ALL religion--including the religion of evolution...
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Female 165
For further proof of evolution we only need to look at ourselves. Our appendixes are getting smaller because they`re no longer needed. In a few thousand years they`ll probably be almost non existant
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Male 14,331
So now belivers of evolution are trying to force it on people LOL ya cause religon has never done that.
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Female 382
@mega_luis15
Link was a Hylian LOL
Zelda games are awesome WOOT
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Female 382
don11817
"devolved" isn`t a word......to change from one form to another, whether it`s gaining of loosing something, is still evolving, it`s still changing....if there world was turned into one ocean and land animals went back to using gills instead of lungs, we would be evolving gills, not "devolving" to a more primitive state.....Doucher
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Female 382
"cognitive dissonance "
social psychology ftw lol
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Female 382
young-earth creationism = stupidity
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Female 382
gravity isn`t a theory, it`a a law...the LAW of gravity
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Male 12,138
vv "if macro evolution is just a series of micro evolutions, what was the first micro evolution? and what did it evolve from?"

-----------------

You`re speaking of abiogenesis, "how did life first originate". Completely separate subject from evolution, and one which science (frankly) hasn`t figured out yet.

Evolution succinctly explains the diversity of life on the planet both today and throughout the fossil record. It`s supported by an overwhelming body of evidence gathered by scientists (including many theistic biologists) over decades, debated publicly, and published in peer-reviewed science journals.

Having said that, if some evidence comes up tomorrow which proves evolution false, then we`ll throw out the whole Theory of Evolution and start from scratch. Likewise, the first time someone drops an apple and it flies upwards out of their hand towards the sky, we`ll throw out the Theory of Gravity. That`s how science works.

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Male 518
Grandfather!????
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Male 436

Gotta love google.

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Male 4,290
"Look people, evidence is one thing, FACT is a whole other thing."

Is it? What`s the difference?

Fruit flies have been observed to evolve in laboratories (it`s very well documented). So it`s a fact that fruit flies can, and do, evolve. It`s also evidence which supports evolution.

We have fossils of many different intermediate species going back through our own evolutionary chain. Davy mentioned a few of them earlier in this thread. The fossils are a fact - those animals really existed - and they are also evidence in favour of evolution.

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Male 271
Devi3000, i dont think evolution is BS by any stretch!
Rather people believe it is solid, 24 carat truth, (and that anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot who doesnt understand the world), to the extent that every other avenue is rejected.

that is the real BS! because nearly everyone thinks Jimi Hendrix is the best guitarist ever (which may or may not be true), there are probably very few that understand the intricacy of his style, the sounds he created and the influence that he has had. It doesnt stop them being sure though, because that`s what "smart" people beleive, and if the people that "know" think it`s true, you`d be daft not to think it too, even if you dont really understand why!

but here`s the rub... with guitar heros, it really doesnt matter what you beleive, but with theories about our origins, and the nature of our existence, the social impact is huge!

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Female 1,496
To bad most of their theories are utter B.S.

Look people, evidence is one thing, FACT is a whole other thing. They can speculate all they want, we need FACTS to prove evolution, otherwise it`s B.S.

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Male 2,605
don11817, do you believe life on this planet had multiple origins? That is the only other explanation for the variation seen on Earth. If so, you`re playing an ill-fated game with chance. Besides, the fact that all living organisms on this planet share the same complex digital code should be indicating something to you.
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Male 165
i lve this fossil. the first time saw it i was practically in awe.. its just so perfect.

(i study biology at university so its the kind of thing i find fascinating)

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Male 650
Evolution- 100,000,000,001 Christians-0 Catholics-0

Mormons- -5 Jews- $1 trillion

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Male 271
aznclueless what do you mean?

seems a straighforward question.

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Male 328
"if macro evolution is just a series of micro evolutions, what was the first micro evolution?

and what did it evolve from? "

hmm. maybe you should be the one preparing to be insulted.

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Male 271
and by the way, don11817. Prepare to be insulted (perhaps even called "2 paper clips"), repeatedly assured you are stupid, and constantly told that the debate is at an end, wether you realised it or not.

i think your argument is spot on, look forward to seeing this one pan out!

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Male 271
if macro evolution is just a series of micro evolutions, what was the first micro evolution?

and what did it evolve from?

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Male 352
lolololol krischans r ghey im so kewl
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Male 2,307
Oh please. It was merely logic that I was employing against you. Your logic is just bad. If you can allow microevolutions into your psyche, then you must really be good at deflecting the overwhelming cognitive dissonance caused by the idea of macroevolution.

They are one in the same. There is nothing different about microevolution or macro. It`s just one is slower like was stated earlier. You`re clearly uneducated, and you`re just wasting other people`s time because you will not even let your beliefs be challenged. It`s probably scary knowing that perhaps there are answers out there that don`t involve the bible.

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Male 5,189
Stuff like this is always interesting.
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Male 86
See? There it is. I was waiting for it, because I had opened the door. Thank you SPrinkZ for proving that evolutionists are sacrosanct. You "devolved" for me nicely--it`s practically a Pavlovian response...

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Male 2,307
Macroevolution is just a bunch of microevolutions. That`s a fact. To admit one and not the other is intellectually dishonest, or just plain ignorant. There are no excuses for that kind of stupidity.
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Male 86
OK. Here is where concede one point-- and that is there are changes that occur at a small level. Viral strains, for instance or micro-biotic adaptation to environmental stress etc. However, the assertion that all life has evolved from some single-cell organism through coincidence and genetic mutation cannot be proven as fact. The problem I have with evolution is not the small adaptations-but the whole theory of how all life evolved from essentially nothing but some proteins in suspension to the vast diversity of creatures we have on earth today. That is the part being taught as fact in our schools and being defended with such zeal....
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Male 2,605
All I`m saying is that if you extend the years out long enough, it is certain that the DNA an organism originally started with is not the same DNA it passed through its successive offspring. If this is the case, change has occurred.

This change is factual. The only question, if there were any, about evolution is whether natural selection is the culprit. That is the theoretical, but it happens to work very well and so that theory has survived.

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Male 2,605
donn11817, evolution *is* a fact because it happens. We can see it happen in a lab.

Evolution is a fact because the process of DNA replication is not a perfect process. It has very high fidelity, but not enough to preclude any and all mutations. The more often DNA is replicated, the more often you are going to see mutations and the quicker an organism is to change at a visible level. This frequency is known as generation time, or the typical time it takes for an organism to mature and to procreate. Bacteria happen to have a very fast generation time, and so we can see them evolve pretty well in a laboratory. Humans, however, have a generation time of around 20 years and so it is harder to see any change within our own lifetimes, or indeed those of most other animals. For that we rely on the fossil record to give us a glimpse of what animals were alive then and what their offspring look like today.

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Male 86
And no, evolution isn`t sacrosanct--the people who defend it tooth and nail are. The Scientific communities that present the Theory as a fact are sacrosanct. I have personally experienced the shredding, character bashing and public humiliation of scientists (not creationists) who have spoken out against the presentation of these theories as fact from the speaker on stage during presentations about evolution. Go to any university and make a claim against evolution to a Biology Professor and you will receive a brutal browbeating designed to embarrass and emasculate you in front of your peers to ensure the silence of any contradiction of their religion.


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Male 86
Here is a website from New Scientist magazine`s online collection about evolution. It states: "Evolution is as firmly established a scientific fact as the roundness of the Earth."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13...

Tell me this doesn`t put a pre-conceived bend on all new information, all new data, all "anomalies" that they encounter... Give me a break. They are sold--they drank the cool-aid and now they`re handing you the glass... They`re just as bad as the fundie religious nuts everyone bashes...


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Female 2,228
Are you claiming Evolution is Sacrosanct?
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Male 2,605
don11817, please give me an example where the scientific community has done exactly as you have said.
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Male 86
Heh nice try-- Religion is what a PERSON makes out of something. A devotion to any precept, and "scrupulous conformity" to the Theory of Evolution makes those who practice such religious in their own way. It is 100% fact that the theory has become accepted as fact, and new data obtained is filtered through the lens of evolution before it is sorted and cataloged. The scientific method does not apply when dealing with fossil records or ancestral time lines.

Therefore, evolution has been presented as fact for years, and accepted as fact by many scientists. You cannot claim that this does not affect the way they see all information--just as a religious zealot only sees things through his religion-colored filter..


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Male 1,685
humans didn`t evolve...we just went *POOF!* into existence. anyone believing otherwise is a nimrod.

end of discussion.

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Female 2,228
Evolution is Not a Religion

Nice try creationists.

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Male 86
According to Merriam Webster, the definition of Religion 1(B)(2):commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance 3. Scrupulous conformity 4. a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

I`d say that clearly defines Evolution and evolutionists in their zeal... The fact is, they themselves alter time lines and the fossil record to fit their pre-conceived notion of what should be where, and what shouldn`t. They call anything that doesn`t fit into their time line or fossil record an "anomaly" and throw it out-- Like the Homo Sapiens Sapiens remains found in the same layers of strata (within 2 meters horizontally) of one of the most famous Australopithecus Africanus discoveries in the last 50 years... But you won;t hear about that--it`s an anomaly...

Take the religion out of science and then get back to me. Until then, the zealots of evolution will continue to fool themselves and everyone else by spewing their religious agenda...

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Male 2,125
@Reformer81
Well evolution ISN`T a religion and if you wanna talk about not having evidence to back it up, you can tell that to ANY religion. What proof do YOU have that god even exists? NONE. End of story.
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Female 1,412
cool.
an woah huge contraversial discussion on here!lol
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Female 5,222
ghey
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Male 38
So, Archeopteryx was a hoax. Lucy was a hoax. Cro-Magnon man was a hoax. But THIS time, it really IS the missing link! :P okay.

Evolution is nothing more than the Flying Spaghetti Monster... a religious belief with absolutely ZERO evidence.

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Male 54
someone better be making money off of this cause it looks pretty stupid
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Female 583
rubored -

Hmm, I like your thoughtful explanation, but as Maddog suggested, where are your sources?

Honestly. We have scientific proof of our relation to other species. What proof is there of God besides mystical things you can`t see? Be religious if you want to, but come up with something better then "that`s just how it is cause God said so.".

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Male 905
Alright ladies and gents.... the key to winning this flame war lies here
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Male 1,347
wooo g vs e fight!!! why can`t it be both god created and evolution?!?!? ya`ll exclusionists suck. and whats this [quote]his[/quote] image poo?! if its a solitary all-powerful being i doubt it has a sex. there`s only one of it for...god`s sake.


ahhh always wanted to do that, the argument in general really isn`t worth anyone`s time

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Male 3,755
As just an observer, I think that what don11817 was saying is that evolution is like a religion in that people look at it as the answer for everything and will defend it with extreme fervor.
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Male 17,511
So it`s a lemur missing a few things ? And we are supposed to ooohh and aaahh over this ?

Forgive me if I`m not impressed, It proves nothing.

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Male 736
i think i`ll come back in a while to see how much venom there is pooling around in this thread.
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Male 736
that`s right, the maddog, we all saw it coming. sigh.
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Male 25
Excuse me? since when is evolution a religion?? a religion requires `faith` which, by definition, is the belief in something WITHOUT proof to back it up. evolution may be only a theory, but it has alot more cold hard facts to back it up than ANY religion.
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Male 3,369

I really should have seen this coming!

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Male 86
"They" gain a life without answer for the lifestyle "they" chose. Evolution is among the world`s most aggressive religions. If you speak against it you are chastised and ridiculed--Evolutionists are vicious in their response to anyone who speaks against their faith... Sounds almost like the Catholic church during the crusades and the inquisition, Only they`ve "evolved" into character bashing and career-destroying...

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Male 1,666
"Evolution is completely false. They are just trying to brainwash us all."
O RLY? Who is this "they" and what in the hell could they gain from brainwashing us into believing in evolution?
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Male 3,369
rubored
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
108 Posts
[ Delete Post ] Tuesday, May 19, 2009 8:30:26 PM
Evolution is completely false. They are just trying to brainwash us all.

To God Be The Glory.. We were created in his image.

We arn`t related to Gorillas, apes or any other animal.

We are his unique creation.

Evolution doesn`t exist.

Adios.
--------------------------------------------------


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Male 3,755
almightybob1, I was gonna say "random" path at first, but was afraid that someone might say something like it`s not really random because of natural selection. But yeah, I realize that our being here is basically just a bunch of random sh** that`s happened over a very long period of time.
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Male 165
Evolution is completely false. They are just trying to brainwash us all.

To God Be The Glory.. We were created in his image.

We arn`t related to Gorillas, apes or any other animal.

We are his unique creation.

Evolution doesn`t exist.

Adios.

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Male 480
lol
take that! you bloody creationists!!
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Male 388
i always thought Link WAS human...o_O
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Male 9,305
"one words: satan."

We`re sorry, the comment you have posted is invalid. Please try again later. Thank you.

Message A90087

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Male 4,290
Supersmash: Evolution is not a ladder we`re climbing. We`re not following a predetermined path. It`s just changes, it`s not like upgrading, or levelling up. There is no eventual goal in evolution. It`s not like every other species is shooting to eventually become humans.

So no, we haven`t been travelling down the same path for 47 million years. It`s more like we`ve taken hundreds of millions of steps, and each step has been purely based on what might help in some tiny way at the time. When you look back, it looks like the path was planned, but it wasn`t.

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Male 12,138
vv No sweat, Shadow. Soft-tissue preservation is rare, like I said. Hell, whole branches of science (e.g. Palaeontology) are built on it.

Glad to help out though.

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Female 4,447
That`s crazy neat.
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Male 5,189
This stuff is always interesting.
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Male 2,125
Ok thanks, guys. That explains a lot. I figured if there was one fossil, there shouldn`t be one too far off.
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Male 7,933
My mom is way older
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Male 133
Pfft. We all know the earth is only 6000 years old. /sarcasm
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Male 1,220
one words: satan.
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Male 12,138
vv crys, no he`s not a scientist as such. A very respected amateur I would say. (Google "David Attenborough", I can`t be arsed to link).

Personally, I would disagree with such a strong statement of proof.

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Female 140
"The link they would have said until now is missing... it is no longer missing,"

noooo really?
and this guy is a scientist?

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Male 5,970
I`m surprised they are letting them handle cameras around that thing, let alone show it in public. Forgive me if it says its a replica or something in the article. I just skimmed.
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Male 12,138
This is Davymid, reporting live from Africa.

Shadowrider: if we`ve actually found one well preserved, we can with confidence assume there were many more, perhaps a whole population in fact. As someone pointed out on a previous thread, we have less than 14 incomplete T-Rex fossils. Yet we all know that bad boy.

I`m disinclined to label this the "missing link" however - that`s just media hyperbole mixed with a dose of hollywood. There`s a well documented chain of evolutionary ancestors, from Australopithicus Afarensis and Australis, through Homo Erectus, Homo Habilis, Homo Sapiens, all the way through to Homo Sapiens Sapiens. There is no "missing link" as such.

This fossil goes way back in our ancestry, to the point where the primates divided (think bush babys and lemurs vs. Chimpanzees, Bonobos and Gorillas).

Just a piece of the puzzle, and a great find for science. Bravo to the team that discovered this part of our history.

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Female 895
That`s a tiny monkey! :)
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Male 3,369
ShadowRyder
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
648 Posts
[ Delete Post ] Tuesday, May 19, 2009 6:30:51 PM
That`s really cool. Are there more of it like that or is it the only one? I mean...if one existed, there should be a few more...right?
--------------------------------------------------

Thats not how fossilization works! Yes there would have been lots of them I imagine, but this is the only fossil of the species discovered. Fossils only form under certain conditions so to find a complete skeleton is rare!

Just to put it in perspective, everyone knows what a T-Rex is. But, to date, there is only acctually about 30 fossil specimens that have been discovered.In honesty its less than 12 complete skeletons worth that has been discovered....but people think it`s more!

I know waaaay to much random crap!

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Male 237
"I don`t know what`s harder to believe. That we were created by a supernatural being or that we`ve been riding this same path of evolution for 47 million years. Actually, make that around 13 billion years. "

One of the most valid thoughts ever.

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Male 3,755
I don`t know what`s harder to believe. That we were created by a supernatural being or that we`ve been riding this same path of evolution for 47 million years. Actually, make that around 13 billion years.
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Male 281
Time to get the marshmellos for the coming flames.
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Male 201
Is that picture with the boy just a picture of the skeleton? Or is it just a picture? If that`s full size, then I very much doubt this is as big as the scientists at Sky News claim.
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Male 201
I`d like to see more of this. How big is it?

I read a Sky News article about it and they praised it like it was the second coming. But I`m still questioning it.

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Male 4,290
ShadowRyder - yes, many more probably lived, but not many will be this well preserved, so good fossils like this one will be rare.
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Male 10,440
kewl.
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Male 2,125
That`s really cool. Are there more of it like that or is it the only one? I mean...if one existed, there should be a few more...right?
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Male 626
Looks like a Lemur.
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Male 868
She`s beautiful.
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Male 436
hmmm... looks like he was playing the piano at the time of his death.
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Male 3,014
Neat.
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Male 596
You live because we allow it, and you will die because we demand it
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Female 4,225
Link: 47 Million Year Old Human Link Discovered [Rate Link] - Isn`t this now the oldest complete human link found?
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