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i think your argument is spot on, look forward to seeing this one pan out!
I know and fully agree, Overmann. I think that`s why there`s a relative dearth of young-earth creationists around here (compared to what it used to be like, in the heady days of Overmann Medal fame). I think they`ve been scared off by the application of cold logic.
Anyways, thread`s dead, have to wait for the next one...
There is an awful lot I deliberately leave out of my posts, davymid. I do this to ensure that the only reason someone would have for not replying is because they simply cannot form a compelling enough argument. If you are anything but extremely polite to someone you want to portray as an utter ignoramus, the best way of doing so is not to upset him. It is not my intention for my subtlety to be seen as shallowness.
The only thing evolution precludes is a literal reading of genesis (Or indeed any other creation account) it does not discredit theism all together. In fact some Xians can even have their mind and use it too while still being religious."
i just thought it meant, creation---ism, as in, the world was created by any god....
i might be wrong, but it doesnt make much sense
for instance... if you`re a christian, you`d could call yourself a creationist... what about a muslim?
The only thing evolution precludes is a literal reading of genesis (Or indeed any other creation account) it does not discredit theism all together. In fact some Xians can even have their mind and use it too while still being religious.
Furthermore, abiogenisis is not evolution. They are seperate theories. So when you say evolution can denounce creationism, then you say it can`t but some other theory can (abiogenisis)... then it smacks of exactly my point. ANYTHING BUT CREATIONISM WILL DO!!!
I`m pretty damn sure evolution has enough evidence to denounce creationism. The particulars have to do with abiogenesis which evolution doesn`t have much to do with.
evolutionists believe that creationists are an affront to intelligence and all the evidence that evolution has, and creationists believe that evolutionists are heathens (at least the christian ones do) or relying on scientific evidence that requires leaps of faith to be complete.
fact is, neither has enough to denounce the other, but there is easily enough venom and bad feeling to cover for that small issue!
so if you come on here, telling people that evolution isn`t sufficient to explain how life got here, and the amazing difference between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom etc etc then you`dd be told all about how you should go to school, read a book (by dawkins or something).
and if you tell people that the bible is an unproveable relic that does not fit with scientific method as a proof, and that evolution is an evidenced phenomena, you get rebuked too!
Seriously, does it have to be `Creation vs. Evolution`? I mean, I believe in both.
There`s no such thing an "Evolutionist". Just call us scientists. Seriously. It`d make so much more sense for all parties involved.
You can recharge by just sitting still. I`m saying that potentially, animals can just sit there all night, like they were sleeping, but with their eyes open like Gandalf. Since this didn`t happen, it means the sleep is, or is connected to, something fundamental in the brain.
"Blindly believing in something, and refusing to acknowledge anything else? I think you just put the nail in your own coffin there."
Evolution, and all the other theories, can be disproved. If a sheep skeleton was found to date back to the age of the dinosaurs, then evolution is wrong. If an apple falls up, then the theory of gravity is wrong. Scientists throw away theories all the time, like the one about light traveling through ether. Its just evolution has a huge amount of supporting evidence.
The "belief" in a theory is not blind faith, its just accepting observable reality.
Forget all the "theorys"..It must take hard work to close your mind to all the factual evidence!
Blindly believing in something, and refusing to acknowledge anything else? I think you just put the nail in your own coffin there.
Point I`m trying to make is that evolution is a natural biological process, where animals and plants deviate from their ancestors due to environmental or artificial (in the case of our dogs and sheep above) pressures. Lyellian taxonomy is an artificial human construct on top of that. So be careful when you say ""Let`s all remember that there`s a difference between Evolution within a Species, and one Species evolving into another". I content that there`s not. Or if there is, it`s just a matter of time. Literally.
Ignoring the second part of your post (Christian disguised as troll?), I`ll address the first part.
No, there really IS no fundamental difference between the two. Remember that what we define as a "Species" is really just a man-made classification, one of the taxonomic ranks. Evolution neither "knows" nor "cares" when an animal or plant has evolved enough for it to be a distinct species, only that it has diverged from its ancestor by evolutionary processes. At which point we decide to call two different animals different "species" is a bit arbritary.
For example, domestic sheep (Ovis aries) are unable to mate with their wild progenitor sheep (Ovis orientalis) after millenia of domestication and animal husbandry. These are now considered separate species. (cont.)
Why do you think we always have to come up with better flu vacines? ____________
snack, we use sleep to recharge, re-fuel and such. But was it evolution? Or was it instsinct?
What I find really really interesting is how animals have not evolved to live without sleep. Logically, prey should be awake all the time to look out for predators. The more awake they are, the less likely they will be eaten. Sure, sleep = rest, but they can just stay still to rest. This means that there is some flawed/ingenious design in brain architecture that forces the need for sleep, or that sleep is a byproduct of a necessary process, much like plants need to be green since chloroplasts are green.
also krischans suk theyr so dum lololol
poor thingy; has missed Britney`s greatest moments, lol
There are two intertwining strands of information in the form of base pairs. Instead of computers with a binary system, DNA encodes its information in a quaternary system with four different symbols to convey information. These base pairs are Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, and Thymine.
In that case, God is one ugly S.O.B!
Evolution not existing is all your opinion. That`s what you wanna believe then fine. You have to understand that there ARE other religions out there that don`t believe in evolution and not all of them believe in Jesus or follow Christianity. Please do kindly open up and get to know the world around you. Thank You.
No he doesn`t. I`m a Jew.
Seriously though, I fail to see why evolution is such a threat to some people`s religion. I mean this respectfully: If one is religious, then why can`t one accept that evolution is just [insert diety/ies here]`s plan of how life changes on the planet? The Theory of Evolution attempts to explain the diversity of life on the planet, that`s all. If one believes in a higher power behind that mechanism, then fine, so be it. I have no problem with that.
But to close your eyes tightly and stick your fingers in your ears and sing "Lalalala" every time you see evidence of evolution is akin to not believing that the sky is blue or the world is round. Sorry, but it is very deeply retarded.
Whether you believe you are descended from a monkey, or you believe that God created you in his own glorious image, either way.."
What would give you the idea that people who except the facts of evolution think they are descended from a monkey?
Whether you believe you are descended from a monkey, or you believe that God created you in his own glorious image, either way..
JESUS LOVES YOU.
Jesus loves you.
I would agree that evolution has much, much more proof than CREATIONISM, but you have to remember that for a good portion of us living outside the Bible Belt, we`ve come to accept Evolution and move on. Evolution > Creationism, it`s pretty clear to anyone allowed to think freely.
However, to say Evolution has more proof than Religion is a huge claim. Evolution does away with outdated theories of man`s origin. Evolution and Creationism are measurable, testable, and one of them fails hard and fast.
Spirituality/Prayer/Emotions can`t be charted and graphed, and as such, anyone who ever experiences some sort of Spiritual moment will never be able to take a polaroid of it and make the world believe it happened (not that emotions are in any way the whole religion.)
- Scott D. Weitzenhoffer
Look, there`s whole BRANCHES of science that support evolution. From genetics, palaeontology, anthropology, germ theory, geology, computer science, virology, ecology, biochemistry...
Debating Evolutionary Theory is entirely valid. As is debating Gravitational Theory. On the other hand, suggesting that the FACT of Evolution (put simply, that species change over time) does not occur or exist is like saying you don`t believe Gravity occurs or exists. It is ridiculous in the extreme.
The THEORY of evolution will probably never be a law. Just like the THEORY of gravity probably never will. Theories encompass facts.
Another analogy could be dumping a jigsaw puzzle over your town from a helicopter and trying to find all the pieces at night. Currently we`ve only found a few pieces that fit together, but they do fit and we are starting to see the bigger picture.
Anyway..I`m off to watch the new Star trek movie!
Have fun banging your heads against the walls!
As I said earlier in the thread, Fossils are hard to come by. Transitional fossils even harder.
The following is a reasonable anology I suppose!
If, for example, imagine a flip book that leads from this fossil to cavemen! This fossile is picture 1 and we humans (as cavemen) are picture 100`000, we have mayby 50 pictures of what happened in between! (Dont forget..this is only an anology).
The amount of transitonal human fossils found to date wouldnt even fill the back of a humvee!
Not a lot is it! Now the pictures do seem to fit, but we dont know if these pictures ended up being us or another species that died out.
As most people know (appart from pig headed creationists) we share DNA with the ape family. So we can prove we share a common ancestory.But because we cant travel back and physically see it happen, it will allways remain a theory!
The above barely scrathes the information out there, and I`m not good at explaining it! But I get it!
Thats why the theory of evolutions keeps being a theory, even a scientist cant say "heyy we havent found the link between humans and lemurs, but im just gonna say its difficult to find a well preserved fossil, BUT I KNOW IT GOTTA BE THERE"
Just because its hard to find, but a theory we came up points it gotta exist doesnt mean it exists. Otherwise unicorns exists by that logic. and that would be awesome!
Fact is we havent found it yet. That lemur has yet to be studied.
I think he means that the world is an unimaginably huge place and many millions of years is an unimaginably large period of time (as in so large that our brains can`t actually really imagine it in any kind of scale). So of course it`s taken us so long to find a SINGLE example of something that is essentially a one of a kind specimin.
You have to realise that fossils aren`t found that frequently, those that are found are usually either extremely common or damaged and that doesn`t include the countless fossils which simply aren`t preserved at all. Not everything leaves a permanent mark in any tangible way.
Finding something as specific as this "lemur with thumbs" in such a complete state is nothing short of amazing and must have been like, to quote Blackadder, "finding a piece of hay in an incredibly large stack of needles"
I`m not sure if you read the " many million of years" part of your post. That should be pretty self explanatory to anyone with the slightest bit of sense.
Pretty much the same as the theory of gravity, we still have no idea how gravitons work or even if they exist, but we can predict something will fall if we drop it.
Ok, so its just plain luck our appendices are getting smaller, how does evolution fit there?
Firstly, I suppose I am an "Evolutionist". However, evolution isn`t, and should not be seen as, an "ism". It`s not a religion. Something inspired Darwin to think of the theory of evolution, then he will have sought to prove this theory (or disprove it if that had been the case.)
There is nothing about evolution that makes it incompatible with any religion, nothing to threaten punishment for not following it`s teachings. The argument happens because evolution just happens to be at odds with what is written in the bible.
If the bible has said that we are held to the earth by some heavenly force from above, there would be heated debates about gravity too.
The fact is that evolution (and in fact, all science) casts doubt over any faith because they are polar opposites of each other. One seeks to learn the truth about existence and the other believes that it already knows it despite overwhelming evidence t
Observation: Every swan I`ve ever seen is white.Hypothesis: All swans must be white.Test: A random sampling of swans from each continent where swans are indigenous produces only white swans.Publication: "My global research has indicated that swans are always white, wherever they are observed."Verification: Every swan any other scientist has ever observed in any country has always been white.Theory: All swans are white.
Evolution is A THEORY BASED ON FACTS. Get a book and not one filled with fairy tales.
Natural selection isnt even a good description.Even the fittests, strongest species can die out!It`s very hard to explain in short time but, for lack of a better description, evolution could easily be described as much pure luck as survival of the fittest. It`s driven as much by external enviromental changes as it is by internal changes.
I wish I could explain it better!
Firstly, the diffrence between a theory and hypothesis
Please pay close attention to the fact that a theory incorporates facts, laws, predictions, and tested hypothese!
Evolution has overwhelming evidence supporting it, and when taking into account the concept of, for lack of a better phrase, deep time, the picture fits.
I belive that picture to be accurate but it`s a considerably complex picture that many people simply dont see or understand.
I`m not prepared to write a science paper to prove my argument or justify why I belive this, but this much is for sure! There is ZERO evidence to contradict evolution, just pathetic counter arguments from religious zealots! There is NO proof we where created out of thin air by some higher being! None at
Sadly, your supposition is wrong, evolution means survival of the fittest, how is a smaller appendix make you have sex with more women? Dont get me wrong, Im not a creationist, but I also dont make false assumptions about evolution to get my point through
Dagaz, stop posting.
if people keep using the english language, without actually learning the difference between there, their and they`re, they should be banned from all forums and debates.
@creatonists: evolution theory doesnt try to prove god doesnt exist, or how life initiated.Evolution theory is just a way to explain how species evolved and evolve...
"The foolish reject what they see and not what they think;the wise reject what they think and not what they see."
(PETA supporters also banned, their annoying).
I, personally, am on the Creationism side of the fence (and what a tall fence that is that seperates us). I could talk until I turn blue in the face why I believe what I beleive - but I know that it`s not going to change the mind of 99% of the Evolutionists out there. Anyone want to volunteer to die, then come back and tell us what they found? I guess that`s really the only "scientific" way to find out.
I`ll say this, though, it seems like an "odd coincidence" that as the world celebrates Darwin`s 200th birthday that this "discovery" is revealed. It would be, to Evolutionists, like revealing on Christmas day that Noah`s Ark had been discovered. Something to think about. Like I said before, I want this thing be publically studied before I draw any conclusions.
Ok, before you make claims like that, at least understand the theory...
Let the thing be studied more publicly, then we can debate all we want.
No, it`s a Theory. And thus has the same scientific "weight" (no pun intended) as Theory of Evolution. Yet no-one`s out there disputing Gravity (at least, I hope not!).
You`re speaking of abiogenesis, "how did life first originate". Completely separate subject from evolution, and one which science (frankly) hasn`t figured out yet.
Evolution succinctly explains the diversity of life on the planet both today and throughout the fossil record. It`s supported by an overwhelming body of evidence gathered by scientists (including many theistic biologists) over decades, debated publicly, and published in peer-reviewed science journals.
Having said that, if some evidence comes up tomorrow which proves evolution false, then we`ll throw out the whole Theory of Evolution and start from scratch. Likewise, the first time someone drops an apple and it flies upwards out of their hand towards the sky, we`ll throw out the Theory of Gravity. That`s how science works.
Gotta love google.
Is it? What`s the difference?
Fruit flies have been observed to evolve in laboratories (it`s very well documented). So it`s a fact that fruit flies can, and do, evolve. It`s also evidence which supports evolution.
We have fossils of many different intermediate species going back through our own evolutionary chain. Davy mentioned a few of them earlier in this thread. The fossils are a fact - those animals really existed - and they are also evidence in favour of evolution.
that is the real BS! because nearly everyone thinks Jimi Hendrix is the best guitarist ever (which may or may not be true), there are probably very few that understand the intricacy of his style, the sounds he created and the influence that he has had. It doesnt stop them being sure though, because that`s what "smart" people beleive, and if the people that "know" think it`s true, you`d be daft not to think it too, even if you dont really understand why!
but here`s the rub... with guitar heros, it really doesnt matter what you beleive, but with theories about our origins, and the nature of our existence, the social impact is huge!
Look people, evidence is one thing, FACT is a whole other thing. They can speculate all they want, we need FACTS to prove evolution, otherwise it`s B.S.
(i study biology at university so its the kind of thing i find fascinating)
Mormons- -5 Jews- $1 trillion
seems a straighforward question.
and what did it evolve from? "
hmm. maybe you should be the one preparing to be insulted.
and what did it evolve from?
They are one in the same. There is nothing different about microevolution or macro. It`s just one is slower like was stated earlier. You`re clearly uneducated, and you`re just wasting other people`s time because you will not even let your beliefs be challenged. It`s probably scary knowing that perhaps there are answers out there that don`t involve the bible.
This change is factual. The only question, if there were any, about evolution is whether natural selection is the culprit. That is the theoretical, but it happens to work very well and so that theory has survived.
Evolution is a fact because the process of DNA replication is not a perfect process. It has very high fidelity, but not enough to preclude any and all mutations. The more often DNA is replicated, the more often you are going to see mutations and the quicker an organism is to change at a visible level. This frequency is known as generation time, or the typical time it takes for an organism to mature and to procreate. Bacteria happen to have a very fast generation time, and so we can see them evolve pretty well in a laboratory. Humans, however, have a generation time of around 20 years and so it is harder to see any change within our own lifetimes, or indeed those of most other animals. For that we rely on the fossil record to give us a glimpse of what animals were alive then and what their offspring look like today.
And while I`m at it
Tell me this doesn`t put a pre-conceived bend on all new information, all new data, all "anomalies" that they encounter... Give me a break. They are sold--they drank the cool-aid and now they`re handing you the glass... They`re just as bad as the fundie religious nuts everyone bashes...
Therefore, evolution has been presented as fact for years, and accepted as fact by many scientists. You cannot claim that this does not affect the way they see all information--just as a religious zealot only sees things through his religion-colored filter..
end of discussion.
Nice try creationists.
I`d say that clearly defines Evolution and evolutionists in their zeal... The fact is, they themselves alter time lines and the fossil record to fit their pre-conceived notion of what should be where, and what shouldn`t. They call anything that doesn`t fit into their time line or fossil record an "anomaly" and throw it out-- Like the Homo Sapiens Sapiens remains found in the same layers of strata (within 2 meters horizontally) of one of the most famous Australopithecus Africanus discoveries in the last 50 years... But you won;t hear about that--it`s an anomaly...
Take the religion out of science and then get back to me. Until then, the zealots of evolution will continue to fool themselves and everyone else by spewing their religious agenda...
Evolution is nothing more than the Flying Spaghetti Monster... a religious belief with absolutely ZERO evidence.
Hmm, I like your thoughtful explanation, but as Maddog suggested, where are your sources?
Honestly. We have scientific proof of our relation to other species. What proof is there of God besides mystical things you can`t see? Be religious if you want to, but come up with something better then "that`s just how it is cause God said so.".
ahhh always wanted to do that, the argument in general really isn`t worth anyone`s time
Forgive me if I`m not impressed, It proves nothing.
I really should have seen this coming!
To God Be The Glory.. We were created in his image.
We arn`t related to Gorillas, apes or any other animal.
We are his unique creation.
Evolution doesn`t exist.
To God Be The Glory.. We were created in his image.
We are his unique creation.
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So no, we haven`t been travelling down the same path for 47 million years. It`s more like we`ve taken hundreds of millions of steps, and each step has been purely based on what might help in some tiny way at the time. When you look back, it looks like the path was planned, but it wasn`t.
Glad to help out though.
Personally, I would disagree with such a strong statement of proof.
noooo really?and this guy is a scientist?
Shadowrider: if we`ve actually found one well preserved, we can with confidence assume there were many more, perhaps a whole population in fact. As someone pointed out on a previous thread, we have less than 14 incomplete T-Rex fossils. Yet we all know that bad boy.
I`m disinclined to label this the "missing link" however - that`s just media hyperbole mixed with a dose of hollywood. There`s a well documented chain of evolutionary ancestors, from Australopithicus Afarensis and Australis, through Homo Erectus, Homo Habilis, Homo Sapiens, all the way through to Homo Sapiens Sapiens. There is no "missing link" as such.
This fossil goes way back in our ancestry, to the point where the primates divided (think bush babys and lemurs vs. Chimpanzees, Bonobos and Gorillas).
Just a piece of the puzzle, and a great find for science. Bravo to the team that discovered this part of our history.
Thats not how fossilization works! Yes there would have been lots of them I imagine, but this is the only fossil of the species discovered. Fossils only form under certain conditions so to find a complete skeleton is rare!
Just to put it in perspective, everyone knows what a T-Rex is. But, to date, there is only acctually about 30 fossil specimens that have been discovered.In honesty its less than 12 complete skeletons worth that has been discovered....but people think it`s more!
I know waaaay to much random crap!
One of the most valid thoughts ever.
I read a Sky News article about it and they praised it like it was the second coming. But I`m still questioning it.