How Deep Is The USA In Debt? [Pic]

Submitted by: teath123 8 years ago in

When America"s debt is put this way, I don"t see how the deficit will ever even get close to being paid off.
There are 217 comments:
Male 1,403
wow we really fuucked
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Male 59
The debt doesn`t give China any power over us, either, contrary to popular opinion. They can`t "call" the debt, like you always hear about. And in fact, the debt gives us quite a bit of power over China. The worst they can do to us is dump their US Treasury Bonds, which, being the surest investment known to man, will be quickly gobbled back up by other banks, and, worst case scenario, perhaps force us to sell bonds at a slightly higher rate for a little while, perhaps costing us a few billion dollars. China, on the other hand, will have lost perhaps hundreds of billions due to having to sell bonds on the cheap, and will have lost the only thing keeping their currency from suffering massive inflation. The damage China would suffer from dumping their bonds could be as bad as total economic collapse.
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Male 59
People really don`t understand the debt. At all. It isn`t a big deal.

You get that? IT ISN`T A BIG DEAL.

Once more: THE US NATIONAL DEBT IS NOT A BIG DEAL. IT IS NOT A SERIOUS ISSUE TO ANYONE BUT THE IGNORANT.


Fact is, the US GDP has been comfortably outgrowing the debt for pretty much all of our history (aside from spending (and thus debt) spikes like wars and this stimulus package), and currently our debt to GDP ratio is, in fact, one of the smallest in the first world. Britain, for one, is around five times as heavily indebted, per capita, as the US is, and because Americans have higher incomes, the overall ratio is even worse.

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Female 61
ho man. the US is fooked!
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Male 91
i mean, germany is poor, but the US tops everything good luck fixing that!
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Female 713
JAI HOOOOOO!
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Male 1,623
"First - kairobert - you are saying that having a Parliamentary Monarchy is better?! I understand that you are 13 - 17 but that still doesn`t explain the fact that you have not expanded your mind. Please, gain some more knowledge prior to making a comment like that one. In a few years you shall see - capitalism far exceeds any other government. Period. All have their flaws - however our capitalistic society trumphs the other options available."

First
The nationalist fumbnucks of IAB deleted my comment. I say "LOL".

Second
Understand that 13-17 does not mean 13-13.

Third
If your capitalist system is so great, how come that after over 200 years of fine tuning and development and nearly endless resources available, it still barely exceeds a wrongly executed system, created by a few years of debate and run by a makeshift bunch of corrupt, poor administrators?

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Male 703
MachTurtle - 734,380,000,000 actually is 7.34E11 ... and i dont think you can complain about it not being 7.33285 since the numbers are way too epic to bother being pedantic. And now, why is there a recession?
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Male 30
Stimulus Bill was ok but it apparently had a lot of "pork" and as for the Iraq war, i agree w/ gorgack2000
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Male 2,199
our fall will come eventually... and when it does... England here we come!
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Male 4,680
Even if you support the Iraq war for moral reasons, you have to admit that it screwed up the economy by a huge amount.
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Male 575
Yay indescribable debt!
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Male 575
I have one credit card that I almost never use.
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Male 14,331
VV Well I can help you with #1 I have one credit card and a debit card and I`ve never paid interest on my credit card I alway pay it off before it begins. As for #2 I`m not sure what they go off of for credit.
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Male 5,094
On a slight tangent: I`ve heard a few rumors about the general public in the US which I`m not sure is true or not, and I was hoping that you could help me clarify that.

Rumor #1: The average US citizen have seven credit cards.

Rumor #2: The credit limit when applying for a new credit card is set by your previous credit limit.

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Female 134
thats what i`m talkin about chattanooga! <33 loveeee
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Male 1,036
Thats a pretty good diss.
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Female 19
....I`m moving to Mars.
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Male 596
PMC`s are the Future of War, lets just hope it doesnt end like the Roman empire.
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Male 2,049
"Oh, America.. what have you gotten yourselves into?"

Same shananigans different day

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Male 14,331
All of you are so negative according to the changelings Obama`s gonna fix everything while taking on the forces of evil all by himself!! Look he`s getting ready..
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Male 490
My opinion, I suppose, is my classic analogy:
I feel we started out with plans for a cabin. This cabin was an excellent cabin with some future allowance. The problem is, we`ve tried to glue Popsicle sticks to it in an attempt to make a mansion. Our government is far too big for the framework laid out for it.

I believe over 50-100 years, we should go back to the very basics, the constitution, and rebuild our system into a more organized entity... we need to PLAN for a mansion if we`re going to have one... if that makes any sense to anyone.

Too much govt spending is within itself in a disorganized clutter of organizations and bureaus.. and obligations... and the list just goes on. We need to reorganize the whole, to make a more efficient government. It`s a cluttered, inefficient mess right now. The core is good, we just need to incorporate that into a new building structure, so to speak.

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Female 4,028
Oh, America.. what have you gotten yourselves into?
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Male 2,245
i understand where you are coming from, but the entirety of it just disgusts me. i feel that we reaped what we sowed and should adapt ourselves as a nation rather than trying to save this broken system. in reality, however, i know that that never has and probably never will happen.

and yeah i realized that central government sentence was sh*t, but you got my point. should have been "...and even adding power and influence to the central government."

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Male 490
The latest stimulus plan with GM is ridiculous, in my opinion.
We should encourage competition. By letting GM fall, we would encourage better cars to be made by other companies.

We cannot do that with the financial district, as easily anyway. We can`t really let some of them fall.
However, I think we should force them to pay the government back in years to come, which would encourage smart banking rather than encourage the concept of "oh, we can just keep on giving out loans if the government can support us."

How are we adding a government?
How are they gaining power? just because the auto makers are "obligated" to work under their supervision?

That COULD be a good thing, even if it is true. Might not be though.

There are better, cheaper ways though, to stimulate the financial district and the economy though... I feel the government just took the expensive easy way out.

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Male 2,245
i feel that that is just semantics hwkiller. so no one is at fault, especially not the people in power. if the stimulus plan works, we are just reviving a corrupt system and even adding a central government with considerably increased influence and power. american capitalism is disgusting.
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Male 2,510
There was absolutely no need to mention jesus.
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Male 490
Amaq.

They sold tickets to other banks, transferring bad loans and mortgages to make up for lost money.
The financial district still loses money.

Selling claims and tickets is not greed, it`s making up for losses; it`s helping fix stupid mistakes. If the banks were making money, they wouldn`t have stagnated.

Printing money does not create wealth, it lowers the value of the dollar.
So no, printing money does not somehow spit in the face of the poor.

We`re creating paper currency. We`re not creating wealth by printing money. There`s a big difference.

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Female 2,064
Holy crud. That`s a good way to put it. O.o
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Male 1,718
D: Jesus must be rich
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Female 495
Megann, Littlepete, Frankii.. Just because people do not like Capitalism, or see flaws in Capitalism doesnt mean that they are Communist or believe in Communism.

As economic systems - they are just two possibilites out of dozens and dozens.

But I agree with a lot of the spirit of what you have said.

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Male 2,245
"The financial district kept giving mortgages and loans to people who were not qualified to pay those back. They lost capital. Losing capital means they did not want to loan more money, because they were getting less of it."

actually they backed themselves up with loans from other banks, so even though the people were screwed they still got their money. the banks wanted more money and the people wanted houses they couldn`t afford. it was greed.

"And what do you mean, printing money is "spitting in the face of the poor?""

to save the system that has screwed the poor we magically make money while they live off of food stamps.

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Male 36
Gothicqueen: technically, America isn`t a country either. The United States of America is a country. The two Americas are also continents.
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Female 688
and to all the peens complaining about capitalism, communism is nice on paper, but works jack shizz in practice. and also, look at china. they have the big ass cities which are evidently richer than the crappy little villages in outer mongolia or wherever.
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Female 495
"Please do not start having a go at capitalism, I can remember someone talking about capitalism being wrong. Now what was his name? Ranin? Fanin? STALIN! That`s it!"

.. because of course if you don`t like capitalism you are clearly just like an evil dictator. He wasn`t a real Marxist.

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Male 1,357
Frankii, i have to agree,
Ive literally just spent the last few months studying the Russian Revolution in history class, and lenin and stalin had some good ideas (stolen from marxism), but in this world, true communism can never be acheived because of the greed of human beings. So all you neo-commies can just get your coats and do one
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Male 901
Wow, I would love to be the country that all other countries` debts belong to.
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Female 437
Please do not start having a go at capitalism, I can remember someone talking about capitalism being wrong. Now what was his name? Ranin? Fanin? STALIN! That`s it!
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Male 14,331
"Your system fails"

"hahahaha! Capitalism fail!"

If that`s true so will the rest of the world.

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Female 1,653
hahahaha! Capitalism fail!
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Female 495
Warmst... theyre the claimed reasons. Most of them have only been cited in order to find a semblence of legal justification. And the only reasons they have been cited is because Blair warned Bush that such reasons needed to be given to get acceptance. The day after 9/11 Bush said, as has now been proven with documentation - that he was going to `kick some ass` in Iraq. Even though, clearly, Afghanistan was the only place to invade legally.

They aren`t necessarily the real and truthful reasons. Im not a conspiracy theorist, I dont believe oil was anywhere near the top of the agenda. But after studying Iraq for 4 years while I was at uni - Im sceptical of the truthfulness of many of the reasons you stated.

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Male 1,623
Your system fails
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Male 499
warmst, and you clearly see how much that`s paid off to everyone. THE ENTIRE WORLD is screwed up.
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Male 838
No, it`s like a quarter of a penny for every American a day. 250,000,000 americans, X 1/250, = 1,000,000. Math skills rock, huh folks.
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Male 17
beternal also:
* The efforts by the Congress and the President to fight terrorists, including the September 11th, 2001 terrorists and those who aided or harbored them.
* The authorization by the Constitution and the Congress for the President to fight anti-United States terrorism.
* Citing the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, the resolution reiterated that it should be the policy of the United States to remove the Saddam Hussein regime and promote a democratic replacement.
there you have it the reasons to invade Iraq, took me all of two seconds to find it
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Male 17
Beternal: reasons to invade Iraq
* Iraq`s noncompliance with the conditions of the 1991 cease fire, including interference with weapons inspectors.
* Iraq`s alleged weapons of mass destruction, and programs to develop such weapons, posed a "threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region."[2]
* Iraq`s "brutal repression of its civilian population."
* Iraq`s "capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people".
* Iraq`s hostility towards the United States as demonstrated by the alleged 1993 assassination attempt of former President George H. W. Bush, and firing on coalition aircraft enforcing the no-fly zones following the 1991 Gulf War.
* Members of al-Qaeda were "known to be in Iraq."
* Iraq`s "continu[ing] to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations,"
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Male 176
Just to pay the INTEREST on the national debt requires all federal taxes collected until mid may of each year.
This is the New Economic Serfdom. In the olden times serfs lived on the landowners estate and paid the upper 1-2% of the population a fee off the top of their earnings. It`s much cleaner now. The wealthy who supply the debt moneys to us no longer have to look at or smell us as we got about out labors. They just have direct deposit from our paychecks in the form of federal income tax. The repugnicans like this automatic transfer of wealth and actively encourage it. Mission Accomplished for the corporate gangsterism of 8 years of Bush Inc.
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Male 1,468
GothicQueen:God this is why I hate posts like this. It always turns into some "well my country is so much better because....." debate. And ya know what drat it..drat it all. drat America, drat Europe, drat Australia, drat Africa, drat Asia, drat EVERY OTHER GOD DAMNED COUNTRY. God can`t we all at least try to pretend to like each other because fact is every country has done it`s share of crap and no one is better than anyone else. So cut the elitist crap because it gets old.
---------------------------------
... Asia`s not a country.
Neither is Africa or Europe.
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Male 467
Heh-heh. Where I live we haven`t really seen the effects of this "so-called" crisis..

... Oooooh! *Financial* crisis you say? Yea, we`re way deep into that.. Thought you meant the "lack of shoes"-crisis..

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Male 2,855
a million bucks a day! wow! thats like 3 dollars and change for every american!
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Male 4,807
to:USFEmoGirl
The Canadian $2 bill does not have an americain flag on it. What you see is the old Canadian flag with a union jack in the corner.
Just wanted to enlighten you on that point.
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Male 741
Crap like this is why I`d rather have a beer than think about the national debt.
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Female 357
I KNEW THIS!

yes i bloody did!

proud.

xlucyx

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Male 1,231
The truth is that we`re all in the poo. Britain is going to be around £2.2 trillian in debt by the end of the year, which, considering we`re a small island, a hell of a lot smaller than the us, is quite scary. Our merchant bankers made the mistake of lending too leniently too; which went along way to causing the problem.
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Male 2,388
at least this proves the price of oil wasnt worth the cost of obtaining.
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Female 75
... Oh, and I sort of agree with Gothic Queen, Englands in a right old mess too. I admire her attempt to get people together and not be against each other... Gothic Queen ftw!!! :)
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Female 495
"And the reason for the Iraq war?! - no one can ever give me a good reason for it..."

It was never about MWD, nobody ever believed there were WMD - but it was always about getting rid of Saddam Hussein and the WMD claim was the best way to get some dubious support for it, legally. That much is now officially admitted and known. The exact reasons we will probably not get for a good couple of decades. Ive got a masters in War Studies, Im in the industry now too.. and Im not even close to knowing.

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Female 75
I wish I was Congress!!! I mean the spending loads of money on stuff bit... I`m gonna shut up, I don`t know what Congress is... and something tells me they`re not well liked! Ahem...
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Male 197
o and imagine what would happen if we all asked for our money back?
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Male 197
this comment nationalism/everybody hate America chain is sorta like how lots of American and Australian movies portray Russian women as mono-browed men with boobs
and so i believed that
and then i went to Russia and most are unbelievably hot
preconceived ideas suck
rite on eichenkatze
and shut up gothicqueen
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Male 221
@gothic queen.

what do other countries doing bad poo have anything to do with the US being trillions in debt?

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Male 5
thats actually very frightening
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Male 134
geez gothic queen, did the tampon get stuck again?

well, people can be as snobby and put down the US as much as they want, but I for one believe we`re all in the same boat, no matter where we`re from. except africa, cause their boat sunk long ago

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Female 4,376
God this is why I hate posts like this. It always turns into some "well my country is so much better because....." debate. And ya know what drat it..drat it all. drat America, drat Europe, drat Australia, drat Africa, drat Asia, drat EVERY OTHER GOD DAMNED COUNTRY. God can`t we all at least try to pretend to like each other because fact is every country has done it`s share of crap and no one is better than anyone else. So cut the elitist crap because it gets old.
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Male 695
Reading this makes me glad to be a European.
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Male 2,586
And the reason for the Iraq war?! - no one can ever give me a good reason for it.
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Male 778
barrooo
Male, 30-39, Europe
54 Posts Tuesday, February 24, 2009 12:18:16 AM
"Americans are not illogical, dumb, prehistoric cavemen."

Are you sure?

-------

Suck it. Period.

The only thing with stuff like this topic is the fact that we as individuals see a VERY small amount of money, even upper-class don`t even come close and only the richest of the rich truly get a taste (and a small one at that) of what the government handles.

the 2009 budget for the united states is 2.4 trillion dollars. Thats $2,400,000,000,000.00
Most americans consider a person well-off if he/she earns $120,000.00 ...

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Male 1,540
There are pro and con arguments for us being in debt. There are no serious consequences. We have always been in debt and we always will be. It helps keep the economy going and it`s good for those with short term investments.
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Male 413
"Americans are not illogical, dumb, prehistoric cavemen."

Are you sure?

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Male 8,302
I don`t care HOW deeply in debt the USA is, what I want to know is when its going to pay me back!
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Male 15
good thing i live in australia xD
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Male 2,582
Seriously you guys, who cares? Take your opinions and GTFO.
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Male 319
USFEmoGirl, you need to check your sources before posting fun "facts".

The flag atop the Parliament Buildings on the discontinued Canadian 2 Dollar Bill is the new Canadian Flag. You`re thinking of the flag on the old 5 Dollar Bill which is actually the Red Ensign Flag which was once an unofficial flag of Canada.

But nice try, anyway.

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Male 490
I wanted to clarify something though:

I said "elitist Europeans," and I did not mean to generalize Europeans as elitists in any sense.
I meant to talk about Europeans of which I would refer to as elitists.
Europeans are not elitist.
Americans are not illogical, dumb, prehistoric cavemen.
Europeans have elitists and dumb people, just as Americans have elitists and dumb people.
I do not mean to imply any assumption or generalization myself.

That is all.

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Male 490
" It`s not your job to think, since most Americans simply can`t, their brain having long been replaced with the mainstream media telling them what to think."

Thanks for that sweeping generalization, and a false one at that.

Contrary to elitist Europeans` beliefs, there ARE intelligent Americans.

Please don`t act superior to us, simply because you believe you are more "aware" than every single American ever born into existence. *sarcasm*

Please... you think Americans are the downfall of thought?
Thought has been in a downward spiral for a long long while, before America was even known to Europe.
Acting so pompous and superficially superior to Americans, I`m sure, is contributing to this "downfall" of thought you refer to. :)

If you were truly wiser than us, oh mighty one, you would be humble in your knowledge; not bitter.
Read some basic philosophy or something.

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Female 1,436
On a Canadian two dollar bill, the flag flying over the Parliament Building is an American flag.

Just wanted to drop a random funny fact.

You guys are awesome! I`m finally leaving work so thank you and goodnight!

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Female 1,436
12charmaxxx
Male, 30-39, Canada
34 Posts Monday, February 23, 2009 8:48:01 PM
"You sound so ignorant. Stop talking."
You sound pathetic. Stop breathing.

Just ignore me. Let your bubble of false hope block out the facts. It`s not your job to think, since most Americans simply can`t, their brain having long been replaced with the mainstream media telling them what to think. Don`t be angry at people who can see this, just go on continuing to provide the world`s entertainment. Everyone has a role, your role is to contribute to the downfall of thought, as is the average American.

Wow - how wonderful of a person you are. So much hatred, ignorance and stupidity. Thank you for being alive to make people like myself feel so much better about ourselves.

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Male 490
Amaq:
no, our economy declined because of stupidity in a few major districts, namely the financial district.

The financial district kept giving mortgages and loans to people who were not qualified to pay those back. They lost capital. Losing capital means they did not want to loan more money, because they were getting less of it.

1) New businesses could not be formed as easily
2) Payrolls could not be paid as easily (many businesses take out loans every month to pay workers, then pay it back once profits are yielded) <-- both in existing and new businesses
3) Banks lost credibility, so less people wanted to borrow.

4) When this happens, people dont want to spend money because it`s risky
4a) hording money causes businesses to stagnate
4b) hording money restricts banks from gaining capital.

Then it all stagnates and repeats itself.
And what do you mean, printing money is "spitting in the face of the poor?"

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Male 2,245
and our economy went to sh*t because of greed, plain and simple.
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Male 2,245
when the government just prints billions of dollars its like they just spit in the face of every poor person in america.
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Male 307
We should have hired MacGeyver to take out Saddam. He could have done it with a paperclip and a chewed shoelace.
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Male 493
I just watched that documentary that everyone should see called IOUSA. It will wake you up. The kind of debt that America is in probably won`t be paid off in our lifetime or our even our great great grand children`s life time. People better learn to pay themselves first.
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Male 490
quote: skine

I disagree that I have only responded to one post. My post was built up from the many I have read. I may not have mentioned certain names, but I was not aware there was some requirement to name and list every person of which my comment(s) was based.

If you read the comments in the forum, you`ll see that most of my writing was in response to it all, as a whole. Some things were directly replied to, just without a name listed.

I`m sorry if you feel otherwise; however, you are not in any realistic state to assume my writing was just ranting on a random tangent, as I assure you, it is not.

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Male 281
hwkiller I agree with you on several points of Zietgeist. Was only saying what ive found to be true. Since childhood i have collected silver coins. I have recently sold most of my coin collection and bought a house. No mortgage. That is my point about true wealth being land or precious metals. Paper is for wiping your butt with. Btw welcome to IAB
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Male 3,296
fu ck this debate.... everyone is gay.

there i win by default

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Male 719
Hey, all I know is that you just spent seven of your ten posts on a half dead forum, with your only comment which even acknowledges other people being based on the comment which calls you out on it.
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Male 512
"Ha, I wish my calculator would say "TILT" when it went over the digit limit..."

Indeed!

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Male 109
Discussing politics here is a waste of time...
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Male 490
Quote:skine

My not having many posts does not limit my credibility, or should not. I am not "ranting," either. I am simply discussing... which IS the purpose of a forum.
I bite my tongue quite often on this site, which I`ve frequented for YEARS btw, mainly due to time restraints caused by my job.
I do not need a post count to establish my credibility, I feel (to others though, maybe).

And btw, I think I made my account to post about a cute animal... not to argue with other forumites about government, economics, and logic. I generally avoid discussions about religion and government, because the ignorance just frustrates me.
On those topics, people often just bandwagon and wont think for themselves. Being online exponentially increases that. Even if I give facts, logic (rational thinking is too scarce nowadays), or a bloody lecture, people will choose not to listen. "Newbie?" no. I`ve been around the block a few times.

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Male 719
But at least try to have a gull-durned conversation.
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Male 490
Whatever one says is "true" in Zeitgeist is that of which you will find in history or economic books.

The problem is that they use basic concepts, add a bunch of stretched truths to it, and mix it with a persuasive tongue to push their own ideas upon people.

The bigger problem is that people believe it. They ARE very persuasive, but it`s because they are using the basic persuasion tactics: State a general concept or fact, add whatever you want to it (whether it`s true, false, or stretched truth), add likeability, add any sense of credibility, and you`ll persuade the masses.

I would NOT use Zeitgeist as a source for economic truths though. They used the same basic concepts as other, more legitimate, books or videos... they just used it for their own agenda, which is filled with many falsities.

So why do people just not use books, or lectures, or economic videos for their arguments? (rhetorical, I know the answer, lol)

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Male 719
I love forums where people don`t even read each other`s comments. It completely contradicts the use of the word `forum.` Especially when the most recent ranter is the most recent person to sign up for iab, with the vast majority of his posts on this very thread. If you have something worthwhile enough to say that requires you signing up for iab just for this forum, then you could probably say it in less than 1000 characters. But you`re just rambling on about your interpretation of the economy, likely bought secondhand (not directed at the newbie, but everybody). I know that it`s utterly impossible at this point to make your own opinion unless you decide to become a research scientist in all of the required fields, which is impossible (as I`ve mentioned earlier in this sentence).
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Male 3,296
"I don`t care if I sound naive, but I think Bush started the war with good intentions... he just didn`t manage to get out of it in a timely manner after it was a failed effort."

hmm i thought the terrorist were from afghanistan.

and is not like we hate bush i hate republicans or any politician that tries to make it about their party instead of this country in peril...

am just generalizing but with the republicans voting all against the stimulus package...

sickening and they want to call themselves "real americans"


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Female 15,763
*ignores current debate*

Ha, I wish my calculator would say "TILT" when it went over the digit limit...

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Male 281
I would like to know what other countries debt to the U.S. are total, compared to what we owe other countries. Also Zeightgeist was not completely wrong. There are some good lessons to be learned. There is also some tinfoil hat poo too. The main thing that stands true is what they call true wealth. Land and precious metals.
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Male 3,296
of the money made by companies during the Bush years, 3/4 of it went to the higher 1% of the peeps, take it away from them since they havent done anything with that money, as producing jobs.
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Male 490
Our economic system is one that will simply go through these cycles. Often it is just of its nature; often it is by stupid decisions; often it is of both.

People are in a frenzy about how "we`ll never escape this depression," but they do not know anything about economy, or at least ours. A free market will work itself out naturally in times like these. No one will know how long it will take, or how long the "long term" is on average, but it will work itself out.

Government "fixes" are not fixes, but they do help alleviate the pain of economic stagnation. The system must work itself out; the government`s role is to just help ease the pain of the repercussions, and, in this case, perhaps help speed up the process in whatever minute way that they can.

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Male 719
*debt
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Male 719
Government wealth is not a bad thing, no.

But (in comparison to GDP) our current national dept is (or was before the stimulus bill was passed) proportional to the national dept caused by the Great Depression.

Debt isn`t bad, but it`s huge right now.

If we had to add to it by a significant order of magnitude...

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Male 719
The basics of the situation: Our economy was good 10 years ago. It isn`t now. It could have been prevented, at least to some extent. The people who are responsible for not preventing it were politicians, most of which were of the same belief as the president. The president is a powerful figurehead, and influences other influential people, including the afore mentioned politicians.

Therefore, we blame Bush.

Maybe it`s not his fault, but being the most powerful man in the nation, he could have tried.

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Male 490
Another lesson for the mass of public to learn is that government debt is not a BAD thing.

I`m not even ABOUT to say that this much is remotely a good thing... but if governments did not have debt, most likely they are doing something wrong.

To believe governments should horde money is the idea of mercantilism, which has failed, will fail, and will always fail in the long run. They must constantly spend (not in this amount, of course), and plus... debt opens up more opportunity for foreign trade, currency exchanges, currency control, etc.

Take an economic course, one especially geared toward "an inquiry into the nature and causes of the wealth of nations" by Adam Smith. If the professor is half decent, he should explain WHY government debt has benefits.

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Male 336
im not gonna sit here and argue what costs the US taxpayers the most money, because frankly no one is gonna agree. What i do wanna ask is how does it make any sense to keep passing these bills that cost enough money that our children will be paying the taxes for it? Why did we give all that money to GM? Those idiots can`t run a business for poo, they claim it cost to much to manufacture and build factories in the US, yet Toyota has been opening factories in the US. Now were passing another asinine bill. Why are we giving money to these idiots who don`t give a poo about u and me. All they care about is staying rich however possible. This doesn`t help the economy. Maybe u don`t agree with me and frankly i don`t care but as Obama keeps drating poo up more and more people are gonna realize what a mistake it was to vote him into office.
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Male 548
interesting.
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Male 490
well-informed*

Character-max limit is very strange on here.

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Male 490
My opinion is mixed, but at least it`s informed and balanced... rather than on a bandwagon and "in."

I am not, though, going to discuss my views and logic on a forum. I`ll discuss through instant messaging or by voice.

I do advise everyone to form their OWN OPINION; this does not mean "watch a video and eat it up because it sounds better."

I`m not assuming everyone here does that, but I know the majority of those who say they are more "aware" are the same who have simply watched a persuasive conspiracy theory movie and believe it all.

I advise everyone to do their own research on everything.

Oh, and by the way, dear god people: religious people are not stupid because they are religious. There are VERY stupid people in every major group. Those who are stupid in religion just get more flak and make other religious people, as a whole, look as stupid as they are.

Can we stop the unfounded flaming on religion, and just get cultured and/or well-

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Male 490
One of the most annoying things about being online:
Seeing people who just watched zeitgeist or loose change try to explain how our government works and what they "do," and how anyone who does not agree with them is simply "blind" and "unaware."

And by the way, if you just go through either of those movies, their "facts" have been very disproved, their logic has been found with numerous fallacies, they stretch the "truth," and they use persuasive language as does any other movie MEANT to persuade.

Know what`s even funnier to those of you who believe in those movies? (especially zeitgeist)
The very fact that you eat up what the movie feeds is hypocritical, since the movie is meant to "enlighten you" in the EXACT same sense as the normal media does, albeit on the opposite end of the spectrum.

:sigh:
Those who say we need to open our minds are the exact same ones shutting theirs down to their own opinion.

My

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Male 2,616
I don`t care if I sound naive, but I think Bush started the war with good intentions... he just didn`t manage to get out of it in a timely manner after it was a failed effort.
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Male 430
I like this one betterDebt Clock
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Male 34
"You sound so ignorant. Stop talking."

You sound pathetic. Stop breathing.

Just ignore me. Let your bubble of false hope block out the facts. It`s not your job to think, since most Americans simply can`t, their brain having long been replaced with the mainstream media telling them what to think. Don`t be angry at people who can see this, just go on continuing to provide the world`s entertainment. Everyone has a role, your role is to contribute to the downfall of thought, as is the average American.

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Male 3,482
"He wouldn`t wage a war to save his own ass."

History shows... People have, and chances are, people will. What stopped him?

Although, whether he did or not, he failed horribly at it...

"He did it because he thought it was the best way to keep america safe."

God... This is the same bullsh*t all of you people always use... How the hell is it keeping AMERICA safe for us to create another enemy?

I`m not even going to go into detail... You would either deny the facts, or just not understand in the first place...

That, and I`m typing late at night so I can`t type a lot all at once...

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Male 976
We`re gunna have to start inter-global commerce if we want to start getting out of debt, and living without war.
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Male 1,153
"Hey, I got an idea! End the war. "

you know, that just might work!

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Male 1,765
Hey, I got an idea! End the war.
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Male 322
OMG this crap again. Here it is real simple. Bush used 911 for an oil war. Him, his VP and most of “staff" all came from Oil. He thought he could do both and just send a handful of solders to Afghanistan and still get Bin laden. He was wrong. If anyone can think his dads war and this one has nothing to do with oil they are fooled very badly.
For everyone worried about or wishing America will fold please save your energy on something else. This is called economic cleansing. This is nothing new. It has happen before and ..yes..it will happen again. Today wall street had the biggest drop since..are you ready..1997. I know I know. it has never been this bad. Well lets see oh yeah..early 80s and hmm early 70s. Do you know that in 1973 gas jumped up to almost 4.00 a gallon. People waited in long lines for gas and some places sold no gas on sundays at all. It sucks but it needs to happen and will happen again. I could go into why it has to happen but I can`t fit it all on here.
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Male 47
and add the already 500 billion before all this stimulus plan bullpoo.
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Male 334
"Mrwnt,
It`s because of bush loving rednecks like you why we`re in this war in the first place. Bush refused to admit that he was wrong after no WMDs were found and he continued his destruction of Iraq. The whole war in Iraq was just a diversion from us not capturing Osama bin Laden."

First of all, I love how bush-haters always resort to name-calling and prejudice. Second, Bush has admitted that his intelligence was wrong. Do you really think that exiting Iraq in 2004 or 2005 was a viable option? You`re irresponsible if you do

You really think that Bush would wage an entire war just to take people`s minds off of Osama? Are you joking? You think bush doesn`t care about our soldiers` lives? He cares a lot. He wouldn`t wage a war to save his own ass. He did it because he thought it was the best way to keep america safe.

Hindsight is 20/20. It`s shameful to ridicule those who made decisions without the information you have now.

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Male 166
"Then again, Americans avoid facts and real statistics in the first place, it`s what the American political system is based on. I don`t know whether the self-assurance Americans have is hilarious because it`s so wrong or scary because it`s so powerful."

You sound so ignorant. Stop talking.

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Male 10,440
You don`t know what your talking about...
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Male 719
Of course, I was too lazy to figure out whether the US population growth was exponential or polygonal, then determine which curve best fit, then figure out dollar per day per person.
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Male 719
LazyMe484, apparently you are lazy. The US hasn`t had a steady population of 300,000,000 for the last 250 years. From the Wikipedia article on US demographics, I multiplied each value by ten (each was a ten year period), then found that it was between 5 and 6 thousand per person. It`s likely closer to 4 to 5 thousand per person, but I make no claim that it`s perfectly accurate.
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Male 17,512
The money isn`t quite an illusion, It exists in the bank computers. Only 10-20% of all the deposits in banks are held in cash, In fact the treasury could not print money fast enough to keep up with demand if there was a run on the banks.
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Male 10,440
Whoa.... hold on there skine...

233 years of independance *
365 days/year *
300,000,000 inhabitants *
$5000/day
= $127,567,500,000,000,000

You`re off by 4 orders of magnitude.

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Male 10,440
There is no way of repaying that debt short of devaluing the dollar. Well, more than its been devalued already.
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Male 719
Well, if you want to measure it, it`s comparable the government spent about $5000-6000 per person per day for the entire history of our country (based on a lower estimate of population given by Wikipedia).

Of course this, like most statistically biased statistics isn`t really accurate in portraying the debt of our nation, or helpful in getting out of it.

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Male 34
"Zeitgeist"

Even as someone who thinks the American government just doesn`t work in general, even I think references to Zeitgeist are just ridiculous. Having watched Zeitgeist doesn`t mean you`re savvy or in the know, it just means you`re willing to listen to anything as long as it makes you feel better. Everyone`s watched Zeitgeist, and only the people who like it are the ones dumb enough to ignore every instance it`s been picked apart.

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Male 10,440
I got "OVERFLOW ERROR"
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Female 1,231
Seeing as how the US is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a minute on the war, it`s not surprising.

mcmonkeyman, I might just take you up on your offer one of these days. I want to see the world and get out of this dreadful ethnocentrism.

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Male 9,305
...so if money is an illusion...would that have made us all slaves to a lie, or a society living one?
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Male 14
You guys all do realize that every dollar that is created (for the government) must be paid back in full, with additional interest on top of that?

This means debt will never be repaid. Period. Because how can you pay back a dollar loan (with the only way of making more being more loans) with any % interest?

You can`t. Money means nothing. It is a numerical value of nothingness. Do you think that your mortgage is actually initially paid for by the bank? Well it isn`t. The bank created that $ value in their system as soon as you "bought" the house. It never existed, and never will, until you pay your mortgage payments.

If you get a good lawyer in the US, you can prevent your house from being taken back by the bank, because the money they bought it with never existed in the first place.

Zeitgeist

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Male 17,512
They are forgetting the debt obligations the stimulus bill puts the government on the hook for.

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Male 34
If I recall correctly from looking up both costs about a month ago with the same idea this image had, the United States spent about $600 billion on Iraq and about $800 billion on the then-proposed economic stimulus.

Then again, Americans avoid facts and real statistics in the first place, it`s what the American political system is based on. I don`t know whether the self-assurance Americans have is hilarious because it`s so wrong or scary because it`s so powerful.

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Male 243
omg america is so fudgein dumb. lol everyone should just come to canada where its happy and nice
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Male 17
Yup! That about sums it up!
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Male 1,837
see? war=/= good
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Male 2,313
Yup, we`re f*cked.
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Male 626
Hey u guyz Negative One is kool.
i just thought you should know...

Anyway, this puts it into perspective.
I`m really worried about our current economic situation =/

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Male 2,582
Who is this Jesus fellow they are talking about?
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Male 17
..From going over the edge then and we had a small recession but we came out of it pretty quickly and the price of all commodities, which includes land, but like all other bubbles it burst and now we are here.
The major problem was that so many companies had bought "mortgage" backed bonds, but the problem is that the "mortgage" they are backed with are actually other mortgage backed bonds, and worse than that they are junk (high yield) bonds. So we don`t know how to price them, and how do you value a company that can`t value its assets?
The problem we have now is not the budget deficit, or the trade deficit, but with how we deal with the problem. There is more than enough blame to lay at every single person`s feet so let`s just forget blame and focus on fixing.
Government spending will not work, and before anybody cries the new deal, we had the new deal for 8 years right alongside the great depression. WWII got us out.
Lower taxes will do it, income and
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Male 7,378
800 billion has been appropriated for the iraq war. 800billion plus whatever interest china charges. if were to end today there would still be another trillion in returning everything, repair of equipment, and the long term care that many injured soldiers are entitled too
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Male 516
"GosuPaul...your saying if we didn`t invade iraq...we would have lost our independence?"

Actually, no, I`m not. I was just venting the fact that a large majority of people (Around me, anyhow) harbor hatred for Bush simply because other (more educated) people disapprove of his decisions. Personally, I don`t know much about politics so I try to keep my opinions loose, but everyone else just wants to join the crowd, and so they give Bush all their blind, uneducated hate.

Even though -you- may not be angry at Bush for `throwing away` all our money on an `unwarranted` war, it doesn`t mean that others aren`t.

My comment was more directed towards people who, subsequent to reading this, are pissed off about our debts.

And so, came my George Washington comment. I was trying to show how ridiculous it is to get angry about debt.

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Male 1,788
The Iraq war cost currently is hovering around $640 billion.

The issue is the rapidly accelerating global recession, hey soon to be depression, combined with the ridiculously large national debt we have.

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Male 372
hooray for living above our means
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Male 7,378
mrwnt: clearly you have a short memory and twist logic to back your lousy votes.
bush announced to the world that hans blix (the iaea head) clearly didn`t know what he was doing and kicked the guy out of iraq after telling him where the wmds were. your point about "everyone else at the time" might make sense if they spent the same money we did on cia, nsa and other clandestine entities. instead they laid all their hopes and LIES on someone code named screwball. face it dude you drank the kool-aide and the mess were in now can be blamed on your illogical votes.
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Male 17
Actually this all started before Reagan. Carter was a huge proponent of "the right to a house". He started the community re-investment act, where banks HAVE to loan, by law, to a certain percentage of the local community that they are a part of, no matter if they can afford it or not. In order to do this the banks came up with Adjustable rate loans, people went nuts and then land was worth a whole lot less and we have the 80`s recession (The junk bonds are what caused that crash cause you have to get more money to buy more land).
Then we move to the 90`s, and another recession small but only because the internet was invented, and then Productivity skyrocketed, not many people remember that a significant portion of workers was laid off due to productivity gains fora single person, but with new technology comes new jobs and there were more new jobs than laid off workers. But the tech bubble crashed, and 9/11, and our economy was about on the edge, and Bush did some things t
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Male 308
wow. i agree. the government sucks ass. really really really Fat Ass
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Male 564
I really dislike politics in general.
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Female 1,578
I really dislike the government. ugh.
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Male 1
Mrwnt,
It`s because of bush loving rednecks like you why we`re in this war in the first place. Bush refused to admit that he was wrong after no WMDs were found and he continued his destruction of Iraq. The whole war in Iraq was just a diversion from us not capturing Osama bin Laden.
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Female 5,139
WOW....o.o holy...
when you put it like that, it`s kinda.... disturbing o.O

congrats pel!

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Male 151
GosuPaul...your saying if we didn`t invade iraq...we would have lost our independence?

i think we all know wars cost money...thats why we don`t (or shouldn`t) wage them with imperfect intelligence

it isn`t being put in debt that made us mad...its the fact that we went in with no clear exit strategy and thought we would be out in a few months

but so you get an idea of who GosuPaul is IRL...here`s a picture of him with his "chilluns"

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Male 52
"Quackor
Male, 18-29, S. America
707 Posts Monday, February 23, 2009 3:48:05 PM
a million bucks a day! wow! thats like 3 dollars and change for every american! "

LOL. That`s one for failblog.com
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Male 1,204
Apparently, Clinton had more blame to the issue than Bush did to blame. He started the trend of deregulation, while this does cause the initial surge of money, it eventually led to the downfall. Not saying that Bush didn`t do wrong too, we all know he`s a screw up, but he`s nott he only one.
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Male 516
Oh NOOOO

We`re in DEBT!

Holy Crap, now that we know, it`s finally going to start affecting us!!!

I mean, we sure as hell haven`t ever been in debt before, right?

DAMN YOU BUSH!

I WANNA JOIN EVERYONE ELSE AND FLAME YOUR ASS BECAUSE I DON`T KNOW ANYTHING!!!

Wait what?

The Revolutionary War costed money??

We were millions of dollars in debt even when we first gained our independence in 1776??!

Oh....

GEORGE WASHINGTON I HATE YOU!!!!!!

HOW DARE YOU PUT US IN DEBT BY FIGHTING THAT WAR!!!!!

Grow up, chilluns.

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Male 135
But it`s so cold up there!
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Female 188
I could just...kiss a Canadian flag or something.
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Male 3,819
Making money = costs money = debt. Paying off the debt = making more money. Oh, it`s a vicious cycle.
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Male 334
For god`s sake Bush did not lie about the war. He, like everyone else at the time, completely believed that the intelligence was correct. Don`t blame him for what isn`t his fault.

And this bill that was just passed wasn`t less expensive than the Iraq War. It cost more than all the US wars of the past 100 years COMBINED

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Male 701
Like, OH NOES!
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Male 4,393
crazyjelly
Male, 13-17, Canada
19 Posts Monday, February 23, 2009 4:58:07 PM
im happy in canada :)

lucky :(

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Male 1,078
Madest:

Again, agreed.

You`re arguing upon your own ears, my friend.

My point is, it wasn`t just Bush, it wasn`t just Republicans, it wasn`t just consumers. It was a huge amount of people. The seeds of this started a LONG time ago, not just with the inauguration of Bush. (but yes, Bush helped screw things up quite a bit)

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Male 7,378
be that as it may the bursting of the housing bubble would not have been as bad had bush not lied about the war and not increased the size of government by almost a quarter
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Male 74
im happy in canada :)
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Male 1,078
Madest:

Ok, done. I never said Bernanke wasn`t part of it. He totally was.

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Male 7,378
i dunno.. the only people who know what they were doing was wall street. they spent many millions lobbying and lobbied the people who they thought were a safe bet to be in charge for a while. greenspan admits he shares some fault but he was long gone before it blew up. if you blame him you must blame bernake equally
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Male 2,748
ok, i think everyone needs to just calm down. Im one for a debate, but hostility is never fun. We can all agree that the younger generations are screwed, no?
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Male 7,378
everybody who writes can read
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Male 1,078
Mad:

How about we say Greenspan, not Clinton? That works much better.

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Male 376
Money is dumb. This debt will never be paid, and I think the whole world knows it. People just like to use our national "debt" as an excuse to further blame us for everything.
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Female 1,436
Ok first - I`m quite tired of being in this debate and growing bored quite rapidly. Last comment -

@ Dilldog: what I did was STATE THE OBVIOUS. Many people deflect and try to use their age for the reason they haven`t actually conducted research. Now - what I said was my opinion - everyone is entitled to their own. However, the facts are there. My mission in life is to at least have people read things and expand their minds. If nothing else in life - this must be accomplished. It is quite sad to read what someone says and you just shake your head because it was full of ignorance.

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Male 1,078
Hush:

Yes and no. He was the first prez in like 50 years who had a surplus, so he did a great job with that.

Unfortunately, Alan Greenspan deeply deregulated housing etc. which led to our current mess.

However they are not responsible whatsoever for the deficit...I guess I was wrong on that. But they are still to share a portion of the blame.

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Male 7,378
look deregulation is not clinton`s fault. the "contract with america" republicans were lobbied by wall street to in essence gamble with our money. indeed bill clinton signed signed the bill into law but he had to.. republicans attached it to a completely unrelated bill
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Female 541
and wait.. tornado of doom.. didn`t clinton like get rid of our deficit for us, not put us deeper in like bush?
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Female 302
D:
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Female 1,436
@ Tornado: You know what I meant! I was on a rant and I`m at work as well - so I kept going back and forth between the 2. The deficit we were in prior to Bush was quite manageable - the amount he dug us into. . . well. . . hell you live in America.
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Female 541
`TILT` as in like error, cannot compute on the calculator... like you know how you get a tilt sometimes when you play pinball?
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Female 368
wow

thats freaking ridiculous

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Male 1,853
USFEmoGirl-
Your first paragraph is...I don`t have the word. One, you judge someone by their age. Saying "You`re young, that makes your opinion of less value than mine." isn`t right. Two, you tell him to `expand his mind` and then tell him to be closeminded and not even consider options other than capitalism.
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Male 564
lol to quiknas.
What`s `TILT` supposed to mean?
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Male 1,078
Emogirl:

To clarify 2 things, capitalism is an economic system, not a system of government. And you know, Bush only accounts for like 10% of the deficit (which is still a hell lot). It started with Reagan (who was a pretty good prez in my book, though not a fav)...The guy who could have stopped it was Alan Greenspan and Bill Clinton. But they chose to deregulate even more...

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Male 451
this reminds me of way back when i used to put "5318008" in the calculator for a cheap laugh
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Male 7,378
mccain`s a hypocrite. it was just a few months ago he announced he didn`t know anything about economics, now he knows enough to complain about.. well everything. obama has rightly adopted the castanza opposite theory and i applaud him for it
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Female 1,436
Ah a debate I actually love on IAB.

First - kairobert - you are saying that having a Parliamentary Monarchy is better?! I understand that you are 13 - 17 but that still doesn`t explain the fact that you have not expanded your mind. Please, gain some more knowledge prior to making a comment like that one. In a few years you shall see - capitalism far exceeds any other government. Period. All have their flaws - however our capitalistic society trumphs the other options available.

Second - the deficit we are in is quite atrocious. Bush did dig us deep. The reality is - the last time I checked - there isn`t a deadline. Times shall be hard - of course. We are basically in a recession. Due to America being the strongest and most powerful - the rest of the world is suffering. The bottom line - we made it through the last recession - we shall conquer this one as well. Maybe THIS time. . . we shall learn our lesson. . .

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Male 1,078
Ferret:
Not gonna happen. Besides, the global economy would collapse if we do that.

Mind you, when I said all the money is in China I think you assumed that we bought all Chinese products. That`s part of it, but...

Have you noticed how we have this much debt yet it still hasn`t crashed down on our heads and we can still spend? That`s where China comes in. They bought it all up, and they have to keep buying it up, or their export-based economy will basically die spontaneously.

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Male 2,748
And that, tornado, goes right back to my first point.
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Male 1,765
wcclark`s a commie! Why do you hate America, you communist sonofab*tch?! Get him!
jk.
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Male 1,078
And tiggerwitch:

It`s only going to get worse. By 2050, the money spend on Medicare and Medicaid will equal 20% of GDP (that`s about, say, THE ENTIRE US GOVERNMENT`S BUDGET and a bit more). Social security will take about 10% of GDP. That`s right, of all the money we will produce, 1/3 of it will go to old people, essentially.

Mind you, I`m sure Obama or somebody along the line will reform stuff so this doesn`t happen, but if the gov`t doesn`t do anything about it that`s what will happen.

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Male 2,748
word. but see the problem is that we are catching on to china and i think i heard some where that we are gonna boycott them or somthing like that....mostly cuz we can get stuff from europe and canada
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Male 731
I hate money. Mankind`s way of torturing itself.
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Male 1,078
Ferret:

Well the money is still technically there, it`s just that it`s all in China. Is there anything China can`t do?

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Male 132
*gets up and moves to Canada*
im ashamed to live in america
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Male 2,748
DannyDanko, i realize that all those things are factors, but what got the ball rolling was the mentallity of our elders that "nothing could wrong, money will always be there, so lets spend spend spend because if somthing does go wrong, our kids can pay it off!!!". and you cant disagree with that.
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Male 1,078
Not to mention guys, if you don`t spend spend spend now, we`re screwed.

Damn, you, Keynesian paradox of thrift! Damn you!

Btw Keynes was awesome. He made 2,000,000 pounds during the great depression on the stock market. And it was worth a lot more back then. And you know, he founded modern economics. Love the guy.

I`m in the mood for a debate for Chicago vs Keynesian economics.

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Male 1,182
go america!
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Male 245
nice.
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Male 2,796
Bye Bye NEWFAG2.
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Male 2,229
another empire bites the dust. like with any empire that is collapsing, it the common people that are hit the worst.
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Female 1,082
yeah i pretty much realized it was that bad.
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Male 254
darkferret, you dont know anything about economics.

if i had to point fingers my blame would go from:
-the banks who offered crooked loans to consumers who obviously didnt understand the seriousness and risk of that kind of investment.
-the government who didnt regulate this while it was happening even though it was clear that our economy was going downhill
-the people for being stupid enough to take those huge risks en masse.

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Male 35
hahaha fancy got pwned.
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Male 612
thats not that much
think about it
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Female 251
can someone please ban that last guy and get rid of the picture!
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Male 380
I enjoy this
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Male 29
actually quackor, 1 million a day is 1/300 of a dollar for every american
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Male 422
darkferret its not everyones fault. Just like you didnt personally...I dont know...but anyway, our parents generation inveted the computer so im happy :)
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Female 587
damn looks like my generation and the next few after are screwed
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Female 2,220
Jeez.. that really puts things into perspective...
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Male 2,748
Ok, here is what makes me mad about all this debt we are in. It`s our parents and grandparents fault. Why u ask? It`s because they spent and spent and spent with no regard for their children and grandchildren, who btw, will be paying off THEIR debt for a veryveryveryvery long time.....
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Female 4,376
holy drating crackers
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Male 2,855
a million bucks a day! wow! thats like 3 dollars and change for every american!
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Male 1,894
bool WeRscrewed = true;
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Male 1,225
You`re not alone pooptart19, but there aren`t as many of us and we aren`t as vocal.
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Female 209
yup, i agree phlem. we are definitely screwed...
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Male 2,440
Why in the F*<K aren`t there more fiscal conservatives? Am I all alone here?
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Female 1,269
dang...
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Male 483
0?
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Male 55
We`re screwed
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Male 227
Link: How Deep Is The USA In Debt? [Pic] [Rate Link] - When America`s debt is put this way, I don`t see how the deficit will ever even get close to being paid off.
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