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Date: 02/23/09 03:30 PM

218 Responses to How Deep Is The USA In Debt? [Pic]

  1. Profile photo of teath123
    teath123 Male 13-17
    227 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 2:17 pm
    Link: How Deep Is The USA In Debt? - When America`s debt is put this way, I don`t see how the deficit will ever even get close to being paid off.
  2. Profile photo of phlem
    phlem Male 13-17
    55 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:34 pm
    We`re screwed
  3. Profile photo of Dextrine
    Dextrine Male 18-29
    483 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:34 pm
    0?
  4. Profile photo of neveryours
    neveryours Female 13-17
    1269 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:38 pm
    dang...
  5. Profile photo of Pooptart19
    Pooptart19 Male 18-29
    2441 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:40 pm
    Why in the F*<K aren`t there more fiscal conservatives? Am I all alone here?
  6. Profile photo of dance4life
    dance4life Female 18-29
    209 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:41 pm
    yup, i agree phlem. we are definitely screwed...
  7. Profile photo of farquaadhnch
    farquaadhnch Male 18-29
    1225 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:41 pm
    You`re not alone pooptart19, but there aren`t as many of us and we aren`t as vocal.
  8. Profile photo of Backfat
    Backfat Male 30-39
    1895 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:48 pm
    bool WeRscrewed = true;
  9. Profile photo of Quackor
    Quackor Male 18-29
    2856 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:48 pm
    a million bucks a day! wow! thats like 3 dollars and change for every american!
  10. Profile photo of GothicQueen
    GothicQueen Male 13-17
    4376 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:49 pm
    holy drating crackers
  11. Profile photo of DarkFerret
    DarkFerret Male 18-29
    2749 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:50 pm
    Ok, here is what makes me mad about all this debt we are in. It`s our parents and grandparents fault. Why u ask? It`s because they spent and spent and spent with no regard for their children and grandchildren, who btw, will be paying off THEIR debt for a veryveryveryvery long time.....
  12. Profile photo of Willowpuff
    Willowpuff Female 18-29
    2220 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:51 pm
    Jeez.. that really puts things into perspective...
  13. Profile photo of tiggerwitch1
    tiggerwitch1 Female 18-29
    587 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:53 pm
    damn looks like my generation and the next few after are screwed
  14. Profile photo of Trumple07
    Trumple07 Male 13-17
    422 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:53 pm
    darkferret its not everyones fault. Just like you didnt personally...I dont know...but anyway, our parents generation inveted the computer so im happy :)
  15. Profile photo of checktree
    checktree Male 18-29
    29 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:53 pm
    actually quackor, 1 million a day is 1/300 of a dollar for every american
  16. Profile photo of xboxman
    xboxman Male 13-17
    381 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:55 pm
    I enjoy this
  17. Profile photo of crazydaiz
    crazydaiz Female 18-29
    251 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:55 pm
    can someone please ban that last guy and get rid of the picture!
  18. Profile photo of router52000
    router52000 Male 18-29
    613 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:56 pm
    thats not that much
    think about it
  19. Profile photo of jhe394
    jhe394 Male 13-17
    35 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:56 pm
    hahaha fancy got pwned.
  20. Profile photo of DannyDanko
    DannyDanko Male 13-17
    254 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 3:59 pm
    darkferret, you dont know anything about economics.

    if i had to point fingers my blame would go from:
    -the banks who offered crooked loans to consumers who obviously didnt understand the seriousness and risk of that kind of investment.
    -the government who didnt regulate this while it was happening even though it was clear that our economy was going downhill
    -the people for being stupid enough to take those huge risks en masse.

  21. Profile photo of dystopia04
    dystopia04 Female 18-29
    1082 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:08 pm
    yeah i pretty much realized it was that bad.
  22. Profile photo of BrimstoneOne
    BrimstoneOne Male 30-39
    2229 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:08 pm
    another empire bites the dust. like with any empire that is collapsing, it the common people that are hit the worst.
  23. Profile photo of splurbyburbl
    splurbyburbl Male 30-39
    2798 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:09 pm
    Bye Bye NEWFAG2.
  24. Profile photo of awesomo
    awesomo Male 13-17
    245 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:11 pm
    nice.
  25. Profile photo of basketkase
    basketkase Male 18-29
    1183 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:13 pm
    go america!
  26. Profile photo of tornadofdoom
    tornadofdoom Male 13-17
    1081 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:14 pm
    Not to mention guys, if you don`t spend spend spend now, we`re screwed.

    Damn, you, Keynesian paradox of thrift! Damn you!

    Btw Keynes was awesome. He made 2,000,000 pounds during the great depression on the stock market. And it was worth a lot more back then. And you know, he founded modern economics. Love the guy.

    I`m in the mood for a debate for Chicago vs Keynesian economics.

  27. Profile photo of DarkFerret
    DarkFerret Male 18-29
    2749 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:16 pm
    DannyDanko, i realize that all those things are factors, but what got the ball rolling was the mentallity of our elders that "nothing could wrong, money will always be there, so lets spend spend spend because if somthing does go wrong, our kids can pay it off!!!". and you cant disagree with that.
  28. Profile photo of Noodlez
    Noodlez Male 13-17
    132 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:18 pm
    *gets up and moves to Canada*
    im ashamed to live in america
  29. Profile photo of tornadofdoom
    tornadofdoom Male 13-17
    1081 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:20 pm
    Ferret:

    Well the money is still technically there, it`s just that it`s all in China. Is there anything China can`t do?

  30. Profile photo of wcclark
    wcclark Male 18-29
    731 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:22 pm
    I hate money. Mankind`s way of torturing itself.
  31. Profile photo of DarkFerret
    DarkFerret Male 18-29
    2749 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:22 pm
    word. but see the problem is that we are catching on to china and i think i heard some where that we are gonna boycott them or somthing like that....mostly cuz we can get stuff from europe and canada
  32. Profile photo of tornadofdoom
    tornadofdoom Male 13-17
    1081 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:24 pm
    And tiggerwitch:

    It`s only going to get worse. By 2050, the money spend on Medicare and Medicaid will equal 20% of GDP (that`s about, say, THE ENTIRE US GOVERNMENT`S BUDGET and a bit more). Social security will take about 10% of GDP. That`s right, of all the money we will produce, 1/3 of it will go to old people, essentially.

    Mind you, I`m sure Obama or somebody along the line will reform stuff so this doesn`t happen, but if the gov`t doesn`t do anything about it that`s what will happen.

  33. Profile photo of TheSharpest
    TheSharpest Male 18-29
    1767 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:26 pm
    wcclark`s a commie! Why do you hate America, you communist sonofab*tch?! Get him!
    jk.
  34. Profile photo of DarkFerret
    DarkFerret Male 18-29
    2749 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:26 pm
    And that, tornado, goes right back to my first point.
  35. Profile photo of tornadofdoom
    tornadofdoom Male 13-17
    1081 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:27 pm
    Ferret:
    Not gonna happen. Besides, the global economy would collapse if we do that.

    Mind you, when I said all the money is in China I think you assumed that we bought all Chinese products. That`s part of it, but...

    Have you noticed how we have this much debt yet it still hasn`t crashed down on our heads and we can still spend? That`s where China comes in. They bought it all up, and they have to keep buying it up, or their export-based economy will basically die spontaneously.

  36. Profile photo of USFEmoGirl
    USFEmoGirl Female 18-29
    1437 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:28 pm
    Ah a debate I actually love on IAB.

    First - kairobert - you are saying that having a Parliamentary Monarchy is better?! I understand that you are 13 - 17 but that still doesn`t explain the fact that you have not expanded your mind. Please, gain some more knowledge prior to making a comment like that one. In a few years you shall see - capitalism far exceeds any other government. Period. All have their flaws - however our capitalistic society trumphs the other options available.

    Second - the deficit we are in is quite atrocious. Bush did dig us deep. The reality is - the last time I checked - there isn`t a deadline. Times shall be hard - of course. We are basically in a recession. Due to America being the strongest and most powerful - the rest of the world is suffering. The bottom line - we made it through the last recession - we shall conquer this one as well. Maybe THIS time. . . we shall learn our lesson. . .

  37. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:29 pm
    mccain`s a hypocrite. it was just a few months ago he announced he didn`t know anything about economics, now he knows enough to complain about.. well everything. obama has rightly adopted the castanza opposite theory and i applaud him for it
  38. Profile photo of quiknas
    quiknas Male 18-29
    451 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:31 pm
    this reminds me of way back when i used to put "5318008" in the calculator for a cheap laugh
  39. Profile photo of tornadofdoom
    tornadofdoom Male 13-17
    1081 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:32 pm
    Emogirl:

    To clarify 2 things, capitalism is an economic system, not a system of government. And you know, Bush only accounts for like 10% of the deficit (which is still a hell lot). It started with Reagan (who was a pretty good prez in my book, though not a fav)...The guy who could have stopped it was Alan Greenspan and Bill Clinton. But they chose to deregulate even more...

  40. Profile photo of dilldog123
    dilldog123 Male 18-29
    1856 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:34 pm
    USFEmoGirl-
    Your first paragraph is...I don`t have the word. One, you judge someone by their age. Saying "You`re young, that makes your opinion of less value than mine." isn`t right. Two, you tell him to `expand his mind` and then tell him to be closeminded and not even consider options other than capitalism.
  41. Profile photo of trashcan7
    trashcan7 Male 13-17
    564 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:34 pm
    lol to quiknas.
    What`s `TILT` supposed to mean?
  42. Profile photo of HorsesRule
    HorsesRule Female 13-17
    368 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:34 pm
    wow

    thats freaking ridiculous

  43. Profile photo of theHUSHSOUND
    theHUSHSOUND Female 13-17
    541 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:37 pm
    `TILT` as in like error, cannot compute on the calculator... like you know how you get a tilt sometimes when you play pinball?
  44. Profile photo of USFEmoGirl
    USFEmoGirl Female 18-29
    1437 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:37 pm
    @ Tornado: You know what I meant! I was on a rant and I`m at work as well - so I kept going back and forth between the 2. The deficit we were in prior to Bush was quite manageable - the amount he dug us into. . . well. . . hell you live in America.
  45. Profile photo of p4nd4z
    p4nd4z Female 18-29
    302 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:38 pm
    D:
  46. Profile photo of theHUSHSOUND
    theHUSHSOUND Female 13-17
    541 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:39 pm
    and wait.. tornado of doom.. didn`t clinton like get rid of our deficit for us, not put us deeper in like bush?
  47. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:41 pm
    look deregulation is not clinton`s fault. the "contract with america" republicans were lobbied by wall street to in essence gamble with our money. indeed bill clinton signed signed the bill into law but he had to.. republicans attached it to a completely unrelated bill
  48. Profile photo of tornadofdoom
    tornadofdoom Male 13-17
    1081 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:42 pm
    Hush:

    Yes and no. He was the first prez in like 50 years who had a surplus, so he did a great job with that.

    Unfortunately, Alan Greenspan deeply deregulated housing etc. which led to our current mess.

    However they are not responsible whatsoever for the deficit...I guess I was wrong on that. But they are still to share a portion of the blame.

  49. Profile photo of USFEmoGirl
    USFEmoGirl Female 18-29
    1437 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:43 pm
    Ok first - I`m quite tired of being in this debate and growing bored quite rapidly. Last comment -

    @ Dilldog: what I did was STATE THE OBVIOUS. Many people deflect and try to use their age for the reason they haven`t actually conducted research. Now - what I said was my opinion - everyone is entitled to their own. However, the facts are there. My mission in life is to at least have people read things and expand their minds. If nothing else in life - this must be accomplished. It is quite sad to read what someone says and you just shake your head because it was full of ignorance.

  50. Profile photo of Lockon
    Lockon Male 18-29
    376 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:43 pm
    Money is dumb. This debt will never be paid, and I think the whole world knows it. People just like to use our national "debt" as an excuse to further blame us for everything.
  51. Profile photo of tornadofdoom
    tornadofdoom Male 13-17
    1081 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:44 pm
    Mad:

    How about we say Greenspan, not Clinton? That works much better.

  52. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:44 pm
    everybody who writes can read
  53. Profile photo of DarkFerret
    DarkFerret Male 18-29
    2749 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:47 pm
    ok, i think everyone needs to just calm down. Im one for a debate, but hostility is never fun. We can all agree that the younger generations are screwed, no?
  54. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:48 pm
    i dunno.. the only people who know what they were doing was wall street. they spent many millions lobbying and lobbied the people who they thought were a safe bet to be in charge for a while. greenspan admits he shares some fault but he was long gone before it blew up. if you blame him you must blame bernake equally
  55. Profile photo of tornadofdoom
    tornadofdoom Male 13-17
    1081 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:51 pm
    Madest:

    Ok, done. I never said Bernanke wasn`t part of it. He totally was.

  56. Profile photo of crazyjelly
    crazyjelly Male 13-17
    74 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:58 pm
    im happy in canada :)
  57. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 4:58 pm
    be that as it may the bursting of the housing bubble would not have been as bad had bush not lied about the war and not increased the size of government by almost a quarter
  58. Profile photo of tornadofdoom
    tornadofdoom Male 13-17
    1081 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:00 pm
    Madest:

    Again, agreed.

    You`re arguing upon your own ears, my friend.

    My point is, it wasn`t just Bush, it wasn`t just Republicans, it wasn`t just consumers. It was a huge amount of people. The seeds of this started a LONG time ago, not just with the inauguration of Bush. (but yes, Bush helped screw things up quite a bit)

  59. Profile photo of WHOISIT12345
    WHOISIT12345 Male 18-29
    4394 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:00 pm
    crazyjelly
    Male, 13-17, Canada
    19 Posts Monday, February 23, 2009 4:58:07 PM
    im happy in canada :)

    lucky :(

  60. Profile photo of ThatWasFunny
    ThatWasFunny Male 18-29
    701 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:03 pm
    Like, OH NOES!
  61. Profile photo of mrwnt
    mrwnt Male 18-29
    334 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:14 pm
    For god`s sake Bush did not lie about the war. He, like everyone else at the time, completely believed that the intelligence was correct. Don`t blame him for what isn`t his fault.

    And this bill that was just passed wasn`t less expensive than the Iraq War. It cost more than all the US wars of the past 100 years COMBINED

  62. Profile photo of peloos12
    peloos12 Male 18-29
    3822 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:16 pm
    Making money = costs money = debt. Paying off the debt = making more money. Oh, it`s a vicious cycle.
  63. Profile photo of jondegi
    jondegi Female 18-29
    188 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:17 pm
    I could just...kiss a Canadian flag or something.
  64. Profile photo of digganob
    digganob Male 30-39
    135 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:19 pm
    But it`s so cold up there!
  65. Profile photo of habbazoot
    habbazoot
    2116 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:23 pm
    i hope everyone realizes we`ve almost always been in debt and it will probably never be paid off


    i say start fresh with 1, global currency/economy, but nooooooo, thatll screw us even moreee....


    peloos, how long have you been a mod, if it is like recewntly, congrats

  66. Profile photo of GosuPaul
    GosuPaul Male 18-29
    516 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:27 pm
    Oh NOOOO

    We`re in DEBT!

    Holy Crap, now that we know, it`s finally going to start affecting us!!!

    I mean, we sure as hell haven`t ever been in debt before, right?

    DAMN YOU BUSH!

    I WANNA JOIN EVERYONE ELSE AND FLAME YOUR ASS BECAUSE I DON`T KNOW ANYTHING!!!

    Wait what?

    The Revolutionary War costed money??

    We were millions of dollars in debt even when we first gained our independence in 1776??!

    Oh....

    GEORGE WASHINGTON I HATE YOU!!!!!!

    HOW DARE YOU PUT US IN DEBT BY FIGHTING THAT WAR!!!!!

    Grow up, chilluns.

  67. Profile photo of caboose117
    caboose117 Male 13-17
    1204 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:33 pm
    Apparently, Clinton had more blame to the issue than Bush did to blame. He started the trend of deregulation, while this does cause the initial surge of money, it eventually led to the downfall. Not saying that Bush didn`t do wrong too, we all know he`s a screw up, but he`s nott he only one.
  68. Profile photo of mike3027
    mike3027 Male 18-29
    52 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:35 pm
    "Quackor
    Male, 18-29, S. America
    707 Posts Monday, February 23, 2009 3:48:05 PM
    a million bucks a day! wow! thats like 3 dollars and change for every american! "

    LOL. That`s one for failblog.com
  69. Profile photo of orionsbelt
    orionsbelt Male 18-29
    151 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:36 pm
    GosuPaul...your saying if we didn`t invade iraq...we would have lost our independence?

    i think we all know wars cost money...thats why we don`t (or shouldn`t) wage them with imperfect intelligence

    it isn`t being put in debt that made us mad...its the fact that we went in with no clear exit strategy and thought we would be out in a few months

    but so you get an idea of who GosuPaul is IRL...here`s a picture of him with his "chilluns"

  70. Profile photo of alice_x
    alice_x Female 18-29
    5140 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:39 pm
    WOW....o.o holy...
    when you put it like that, it`s kinda.... disturbing o.O

    congrats pel!

  71. Profile photo of Zeppelin1210
    Zeppelin1210 Male 18-29
    1 post
    February 23, 2009 at 5:41 pm
    Mrwnt,
    It`s because of bush loving rednecks like you why we`re in this war in the first place. Bush refused to admit that he was wrong after no WMDs were found and he continued his destruction of Iraq. The whole war in Iraq was just a diversion from us not capturing Osama bin Laden.
  72. Profile photo of heartx3jess
    heartx3jess Female 18-29
    1578 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:42 pm
    I really dislike the government. ugh.
  73. Profile photo of trashcan7
    trashcan7 Male 13-17
    564 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:43 pm
    I really dislike politics in general.
  74. Profile photo of shinsvaka
    shinsvaka Male 18-29
    308 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:44 pm
    wow. i agree. the government sucks ass. really really really Fat Ass
  75. Profile photo of warmst
    warmst Male 30-39
    17 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:46 pm
    Actually this all started before Reagan. Carter was a huge proponent of "the right to a house". He started the community re-investment act, where banks HAVE to loan, by law, to a certain percentage of the local community that they are a part of, no matter if they can afford it or not. In order to do this the banks came up with Adjustable rate loans, people went nuts and then land was worth a whole lot less and we have the 80`s recession (The junk bonds are what caused that crash cause you have to get more money to buy more land).
    Then we move to the 90`s, and another recession small but only because the internet was invented, and then Productivity skyrocketed, not many people remember that a significant portion of workers was laid off due to productivity gains fora single person, but with new technology comes new jobs and there were more new jobs than laid off workers. But the tech bubble crashed, and 9/11, and our economy was about on the edge, and Bush did some things t
  76. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:46 pm
    mrwnt: clearly you have a short memory and twist logic to back your lousy votes.
    bush announced to the world that hans blix (the iaea head) clearly didn`t know what he was doing and kicked the guy out of iraq after telling him where the wmds were. your point about "everyone else at the time" might make sense if they spent the same money we did on cia, nsa and other clandestine entities. instead they laid all their hopes and LIES on someone code named screwball. face it dude you drank the kool-aide and the mess were in now can be blamed on your illogical votes.
  77. Profile photo of JihadAllah
    JihadAllah Male 13-17
    372 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:46 pm
    hooray for living above our means
  78. Profile photo of _Perfection_
    _Perfection_ Male 18-29
    1788 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:49 pm
    The Iraq war cost currently is hovering around $640 billion.

    The issue is the rapidly accelerating global recession, hey soon to be depression, combined with the ridiculously large national debt we have.

  79. Profile photo of GosuPaul
    GosuPaul Male 18-29
    516 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:50 pm
    "GosuPaul...your saying if we didn`t invade iraq...we would have lost our independence?"

    Actually, no, I`m not. I was just venting the fact that a large majority of people (Around me, anyhow) harbor hatred for Bush simply because other (more educated) people disapprove of his decisions. Personally, I don`t know much about politics so I try to keep my opinions loose, but everyone else just wants to join the crowd, and so they give Bush all their blind, uneducated hate.

    Even though -you- may not be angry at Bush for `throwing away` all our money on an `unwarranted` war, it doesn`t mean that others aren`t.

    My comment was more directed towards people who, subsequent to reading this, are pissed off about our debts.

    And so, came my George Washington comment. I was trying to show how ridiculous it is to get angry about debt.

  80. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:51 pm
    800 billion has been appropriated for the iraq war. 800billion plus whatever interest china charges. if were to end today there would still be another trillion in returning everything, repair of equipment, and the long term care that many injured soldiers are entitled too
  81. Profile photo of warmst
    warmst Male 30-39
    17 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:53 pm
    ..From going over the edge then and we had a small recession but we came out of it pretty quickly and the price of all commodities, which includes land, but like all other bubbles it burst and now we are here.
    The major problem was that so many companies had bought "mortgage" backed bonds, but the problem is that the "mortgage" they are backed with are actually other mortgage backed bonds, and worse than that they are junk (high yield) bonds. So we don`t know how to price them, and how do you value a company that can`t value its assets?
    The problem we have now is not the budget deficit, or the trade deficit, but with how we deal with the problem. There is more than enough blame to lay at every single person`s feet so let`s just forget blame and focus on fixing.
    Government spending will not work, and before anybody cries the new deal, we had the new deal for 8 years right alongside the great depression. WWII got us out.
    Lower taxes will do it, income and
  82. Profile photo of Negative_One
    Negative_One Male 30-39
    2583 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 5:57 pm
    Who is this Jesus fellow they are talking about?
  83. Profile photo of Zerro
    Zerro Male 18-29
    628 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:02 pm
    Hey u guyz Negative One is kool.
    i just thought you should know...

    Anyway, this puts it into perspective.
    I`m really worried about our current economic situation =/

  84. Profile photo of sixclaws13
    sixclaws13 Male 18-29
    2314 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:09 pm
    Yup, we`re f*cked.
  85. Profile photo of KeVsTeR2475
    KeVsTeR2475 Male 13-17
    1841 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:16 pm
    see? war=/= good
  86. Profile photo of deathshdw
    deathshdw Male 13-17
    17 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:24 pm
    Yup! That about sums it up!
  87. Profile photo of mcmonkeyman
    mcmonkeyman Male 13-17
    243 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:27 pm
    omg america is so fudgein dumb. lol everyone should just come to canada where its happy and nice
  88. Profile photo of 12charmaxxx
    12charmaxxx Male 30-39
    34 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:28 pm
    If I recall correctly from looking up both costs about a month ago with the same idea this image had, the United States spent about $600 billion on Iraq and about $800 billion on the then-proposed economic stimulus.

    Then again, Americans avoid facts and real statistics in the first place, it`s what the American political system is based on. I don`t know whether the self-assurance Americans have is hilarious because it`s so wrong or scary because it`s so powerful.

  89. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:35 pm
    They are forgetting the debt obligations the stimulus bill puts the government on the hook for.

  90. Profile photo of Anubis7160
    Anubis7160 Male 13-17
    14 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:35 pm
    You guys all do realize that every dollar that is created (for the government) must be paid back in full, with additional interest on top of that?

    This means debt will never be repaid. Period. Because how can you pay back a dollar loan (with the only way of making more being more loans) with any % interest?

    You can`t. Money means nothing. It is a numerical value of nothingness. Do you think that your mortgage is actually initially paid for by the bank? Well it isn`t. The bank created that $ value in their system as soon as you "bought" the house. It never existed, and never will, until you pay your mortgage payments.

    If you get a good lawyer in the US, you can prevent your house from being taken back by the bank, because the money they bought it with never existed in the first place.

    Zeitgeist

  91. Profile photo of Nidonemo
    Nidonemo Male 18-29
    9308 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:38 pm
    ...so if money is an illusion...would that have made us all slaves to a lie, or a society living one?
  92. Profile photo of firefliet
    firefliet Female 18-29
    1232 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:40 pm
    Seeing as how the US is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a minute on the war, it`s not surprising.

    mcmonkeyman, I might just take you up on your offer one of these days. I want to see the world and get out of this dreadful ethnocentrism.

  93. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:41 pm
    I got "OVERFLOW ERROR"
  94. Profile photo of 12charmaxxx
    12charmaxxx Male 30-39
    34 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:46 pm
    "Zeitgeist"

    Even as someone who thinks the American government just doesn`t work in general, even I think references to Zeitgeist are just ridiculous. Having watched Zeitgeist doesn`t mean you`re savvy or in the know, it just means you`re willing to listen to anything as long as it makes you feel better. Everyone`s watched Zeitgeist, and only the people who like it are the ones dumb enough to ignore every instance it`s been picked apart.

  95. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:48 pm
    Well, if you want to measure it, it`s comparable the government spent about $5000-6000 per person per day for the entire history of our country (based on a lower estimate of population given by Wikipedia).

    Of course this, like most statistically biased statistics isn`t really accurate in portraying the debt of our nation, or helpful in getting out of it.

  96. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:49 pm
    There is no way of repaying that debt short of devaluing the dollar. Well, more than its been devalued already.
  97. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:53 pm
    Whoa.... hold on there skine...

    233 years of independance *
    365 days/year *
    300,000,000 inhabitants *
    $5000/day
    = $127,567,500,000,000,000

    You`re off by 4 orders of magnitude.

  98. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:54 pm
    The money isn`t quite an illusion, It exists in the bank computers. Only 10-20% of all the deposits in banks are held in cash, In fact the treasury could not print money fast enough to keep up with demand if there was a run on the banks.
  99. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 6:57 pm
    LazyMe484, apparently you are lazy. The US hasn`t had a steady population of 300,000,000 for the last 250 years. From the Wikipedia article on US demographics, I multiplied each value by ten (each was a ten year period), then found that it was between 5 and 6 thousand per person. It`s likely closer to 4 to 5 thousand per person, but I make no claim that it`s perfectly accurate.
  100. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 7:01 pm
    Of course, I was too lazy to figure out whether the US population growth was exponential or polygonal, then determine which curve best fit, then figure out dollar per day per person.
  101. Profile photo of LazyMe484
    LazyMe484 Male 18-29
    10441 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 7:10 pm
    You don`t know what your talking about...
  102. Profile photo of theRam
    theRam Male 13-17
    166 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 7:26 pm
    "Then again, Americans avoid facts and real statistics in the first place, it`s what the American political system is based on. I don`t know whether the self-assurance Americans have is hilarious because it`s so wrong or scary because it`s so powerful."

    You sound so ignorant. Stop talking.

  103. Profile photo of mrwnt
    mrwnt Male 18-29
    334 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 7:31 pm
    "Mrwnt,
    It`s because of bush loving rednecks like you why we`re in this war in the first place. Bush refused to admit that he was wrong after no WMDs were found and he continued his destruction of Iraq. The whole war in Iraq was just a diversion from us not capturing Osama bin Laden."

    First of all, I love how bush-haters always resort to name-calling and prejudice. Second, Bush has admitted that his intelligence was wrong. Do you really think that exiting Iraq in 2004 or 2005 was a viable option? You`re irresponsible if you do

    You really think that Bush would wage an entire war just to take people`s minds off of Osama? Are you joking? You think bush doesn`t care about our soldiers` lives? He cares a lot. He wouldn`t wage a war to save his own ass. He did it because he thought it was the best way to keep america safe.

    Hindsight is 20/20. It`s shameful to ridicule those who made decisions without the information you have now.

  104. Profile photo of v10monster
    v10monster Male 18-29
    47 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 7:52 pm
    and add the already 500 billion before all this stimulus plan bullpoo.
  105. Profile photo of Mo73
    Mo73 Male 30-39
    322 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 8:12 pm
    OMG this crap again. Here it is real simple. Bush used 911 for an oil war. Him, his VP and most of “staff" all came from Oil. He thought he could do both and just send a handful of solders to Afghanistan and still get Bin laden. He was wrong. If anyone can think his dads war and this one has nothing to do with oil they are fooled very badly.
    For everyone worried about or wishing America will fold please save your energy on something else. This is called economic cleansing. This is nothing new. It has happen before and ..yes..it will happen again. Today wall street had the biggest drop since..are you ready..1997. I know I know. it has never been this bad. Well lets see oh yeah..early 80s and hmm early 70s. Do you know that in 1973 gas jumped up to almost 4.00 a gallon. People waited in long lines for gas and some places sold no gas on sundays at all. It sucks but it needs to happen and will happen again. I could go into why it has to happen but I can`t fit it all on here.
  106. Profile photo of TheSharpest
    TheSharpest Male 18-29
    1767 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 8:14 pm
    Hey, I got an idea! End the war.
  107. Profile photo of steve41high
    steve41high Male 18-29
    1153 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 8:16 pm
    "Hey, I got an idea! End the war. "

    you know, that just might work!

  108. Profile photo of Winter_ICE_0
    Winter_ICE_0 Male 13-17
    976 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 8:32 pm
    We`re gunna have to start inter-global commerce if we want to start getting out of debt, and living without war.
  109. Profile photo of Altaru
    Altaru Male 18-29
    3483 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 8:44 pm
    "He wouldn`t wage a war to save his own ass."

    History shows... People have, and chances are, people will. What stopped him?

    Although, whether he did or not, he failed horribly at it...

    "He did it because he thought it was the best way to keep america safe."

    God... This is the same bullsh*t all of you people always use... How the hell is it keeping AMERICA safe for us to create another enemy?

    I`m not even going to go into detail... You would either deny the facts, or just not understand in the first place...

    That, and I`m typing late at night so I can`t type a lot all at once...

  110. Profile photo of 12charmaxxx
    12charmaxxx Male 30-39
    34 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 8:48 pm
    "You sound so ignorant. Stop talking."

    You sound pathetic. Stop breathing.

    Just ignore me. Let your bubble of false hope block out the facts. It`s not your job to think, since most Americans simply can`t, their brain having long been replaced with the mainstream media telling them what to think. Don`t be angry at people who can see this, just go on continuing to provide the world`s entertainment. Everyone has a role, your role is to contribute to the downfall of thought, as is the average American.

  111. Profile photo of evilducky00
    evilducky00 Male 18-29
    430 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 8:52 pm
    I like this one betterDebt Clock
  112. Profile photo of AKappy
    AKappy Male 18-29
    2616 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 8:53 pm
    I don`t care if I sound naive, but I think Bush started the war with good intentions... he just didn`t manage to get out of it in a timely manner after it was a failed effort.
  113. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 8:57 pm
    One of the most annoying things about being online:
    Seeing people who just watched zeitgeist or loose change try to explain how our government works and what they "do," and how anyone who does not agree with them is simply "blind" and "unaware."

    And by the way, if you just go through either of those movies, their "facts" have been very disproved, their logic has been found with numerous fallacies, they stretch the "truth," and they use persuasive language as does any other movie MEANT to persuade.

    Know what`s even funnier to those of you who believe in those movies? (especially zeitgeist)
    The very fact that you eat up what the movie feeds is hypocritical, since the movie is meant to "enlighten you" in the EXACT same sense as the normal media does, albeit on the opposite end of the spectrum.

    :sigh:
    Those who say we need to open our minds are the exact same ones shutting theirs down to their own opinion.

    My

  114. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:02 pm
    My opinion is mixed, but at least it`s informed and balanced... rather than on a bandwagon and "in."

    I am not, though, going to discuss my views and logic on a forum. I`ll discuss through instant messaging or by voice.

    I do advise everyone to form their OWN OPINION; this does not mean "watch a video and eat it up because it sounds better."

    I`m not assuming everyone here does that, but I know the majority of those who say they are more "aware" are the same who have simply watched a persuasive conspiracy theory movie and believe it all.

    I advise everyone to do their own research on everything.

    Oh, and by the way, dear god people: religious people are not stupid because they are religious. There are VERY stupid people in every major group. Those who are stupid in religion just get more flak and make other religious people, as a whole, look as stupid as they are.

    Can we stop the unfounded flaming on religion, and just get cultured and/or well-

  115. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:03 pm
    well-informed*

    Character-max limit is very strange on here.

  116. Profile photo of joofro
    joofro Male 18-29
    548 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:04 pm
    interesting.
  117. Profile photo of mjfoxman
    mjfoxman Male 18-29
    336 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:15 pm
    im not gonna sit here and argue what costs the US taxpayers the most money, because frankly no one is gonna agree. What i do wanna ask is how does it make any sense to keep passing these bills that cost enough money that our children will be paying the taxes for it? Why did we give all that money to GM? Those idiots can`t run a business for poo, they claim it cost to much to manufacture and build factories in the US, yet Toyota has been opening factories in the US. Now were passing another asinine bill. Why are we giving money to these idiots who don`t give a poo about u and me. All they care about is staying rich however possible. This doesn`t help the economy. Maybe u don`t agree with me and frankly i don`t care but as Obama keeps drating poo up more and more people are gonna realize what a mistake it was to vote him into office.
  118. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:16 pm
    Another lesson for the mass of public to learn is that government debt is not a BAD thing.

    I`m not even ABOUT to say that this much is remotely a good thing... but if governments did not have debt, most likely they are doing something wrong.

    To believe governments should horde money is the idea of mercantilism, which has failed, will fail, and will always fail in the long run. They must constantly spend (not in this amount, of course), and plus... debt opens up more opportunity for foreign trade, currency exchanges, currency control, etc.

    Take an economic course, one especially geared toward "an inquiry into the nature and causes of the wealth of nations" by Adam Smith. If the professor is half decent, he should explain WHY government debt has benefits.

  119. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:23 pm
    The basics of the situation: Our economy was good 10 years ago. It isn`t now. It could have been prevented, at least to some extent. The people who are responsible for not preventing it were politicians, most of which were of the same belief as the president. The president is a powerful figurehead, and influences other influential people, including the afore mentioned politicians.

    Therefore, we blame Bush.

    Maybe it`s not his fault, but being the most powerful man in the nation, he could have tried.

  120. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:26 pm
    Government wealth is not a bad thing, no.

    But (in comparison to GDP) our current national dept is (or was before the stimulus bill was passed) proportional to the national dept caused by the Great Depression.

    Debt isn`t bad, but it`s huge right now.

    If we had to add to it by a significant order of magnitude...

  121. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:27 pm
    *debt
  122. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:31 pm
    Our economic system is one that will simply go through these cycles. Often it is just of its nature; often it is by stupid decisions; often it is of both.

    People are in a frenzy about how "we`ll never escape this depression," but they do not know anything about economy, or at least ours. A free market will work itself out naturally in times like these. No one will know how long it will take, or how long the "long term" is on average, but it will work itself out.

    Government "fixes" are not fixes, but they do help alleviate the pain of economic stagnation. The system must work itself out; the government`s role is to just help ease the pain of the repercussions, and, in this case, perhaps help speed up the process in whatever minute way that they can.

  123. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:33 pm
    of the money made by companies during the Bush years, 3/4 of it went to the higher 1% of the peeps, take it away from them since they havent done anything with that money, as producing jobs.
  124. Profile photo of sewermonkey
    sewermonkey Male 30-39
    280 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:35 pm
    I would like to know what other countries debt to the U.S. are total, compared to what we owe other countries. Also Zeightgeist was not completely wrong. There are some good lessons to be learned. There is also some tinfoil hat poo too. The main thing that stands true is what they call true wealth. Land and precious metals.
  125. Profile photo of opiebreath
    opiebreath Female 18-29
    15774 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:40 pm
    *ignores current debate*

    Ha, I wish my calculator would say "TILT" when it went over the digit limit...

  126. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:44 pm
    "I don`t care if I sound naive, but I think Bush started the war with good intentions... he just didn`t manage to get out of it in a timely manner after it was a failed effort."

    hmm i thought the terrorist were from afghanistan.

    and is not like we hate bush i hate republicans or any politician that tries to make it about their party instead of this country in peril...

    am just generalizing but with the republicans voting all against the stimulus package...

    sickening and they want to call themselves "real americans"


  127. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:44 pm
    I love forums where people don`t even read each other`s comments. It completely contradicts the use of the word `forum.` Especially when the most recent ranter is the most recent person to sign up for iab, with the vast majority of his posts on this very thread. If you have something worthwhile enough to say that requires you signing up for iab just for this forum, then you could probably say it in less than 1000 characters. But you`re just rambling on about your interpretation of the economy, likely bought secondhand (not directed at the newbie, but everybody). I know that it`s utterly impossible at this point to make your own opinion unless you decide to become a research scientist in all of the required fields, which is impossible (as I`ve mentioned earlier in this sentence).
  128. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:45 pm
    Whatever one says is "true" in Zeitgeist is that of which you will find in history or economic books.

    The problem is that they use basic concepts, add a bunch of stretched truths to it, and mix it with a persuasive tongue to push their own ideas upon people.

    The bigger problem is that people believe it. They ARE very persuasive, but it`s because they are using the basic persuasion tactics: State a general concept or fact, add whatever you want to it (whether it`s true, false, or stretched truth), add likeability, add any sense of credibility, and you`ll persuade the masses.

    I would NOT use Zeitgeist as a source for economic truths though. They used the same basic concepts as other, more legitimate, books or videos... they just used it for their own agenda, which is filled with many falsities.

    So why do people just not use books, or lectures, or economic videos for their arguments? (rhetorical, I know the answer, lol)

  129. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:47 pm
    But at least try to have a gull-durned conversation.
  130. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:51 pm
    Quote:skine

    My not having many posts does not limit my credibility, or should not. I am not "ranting," either. I am simply discussing... which IS the purpose of a forum.
    I bite my tongue quite often on this site, which I`ve frequented for YEARS btw, mainly due to time restraints caused by my job.
    I do not need a post count to establish my credibility, I feel (to others though, maybe).

    And btw, I think I made my account to post about a cute animal... not to argue with other forumites about government, economics, and logic. I generally avoid discussions about religion and government, because the ignorance just frustrates me.
    On those topics, people often just bandwagon and wont think for themselves. Being online exponentially increases that. Even if I give facts, logic (rational thinking is too scarce nowadays), or a bloody lecture, people will choose not to listen. "Newbie?" no. I`ve been around the block a few times.

  131. Profile photo of Quebec1217
    Quebec1217 Male 18-29
    109 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:58 pm
    Discussing politics here is a waste of time...
  132. Profile photo of ZIMAAgent7
    ZIMAAgent7 Male 18-29
    512 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:58 pm
    "Ha, I wish my calculator would say "TILT" when it went over the digit limit..."

    Indeed!

  133. Profile photo of skine
    skine Male 18-29
    719 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:58 pm
    Hey, all I know is that you just spent seven of your ten posts on a half dead forum, with your only comment which even acknowledges other people being based on the comment which calls you out on it.
  134. Profile photo of Tonyjet
    Tonyjet Male 18-29
    3298 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 9:59 pm
    fu ck this debate.... everyone is gay.

    there i win by default

  135. Profile photo of sewermonkey
    sewermonkey Male 30-39
    280 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 10:02 pm
    hwkiller I agree with you on several points of Zietgeist. Was only saying what ive found to be true. Since childhood i have collected silver coins. I have recently sold most of my coin collection and bought a house. No mortgage. That is my point about true wealth being land or precious metals. Paper is for wiping your butt with. Btw welcome to IAB
  136. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 10:26 pm
    quote: skine

    I disagree that I have only responded to one post. My post was built up from the many I have read. I may not have mentioned certain names, but I was not aware there was some requirement to name and list every person of which my comment(s) was based.

    If you read the comments in the forum, you`ll see that most of my writing was in response to it all, as a whole. Some things were directly replied to, just without a name listed.

    I`m sorry if you feel otherwise; however, you are not in any realistic state to assume my writing was just ranting on a random tangent, as I assure you, it is not.

  137. Profile photo of Filipino916
    Filipino916 Male 18-29
    494 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 10:38 pm
    I just watched that documentary that everyone should see called IOUSA. It will wake you up. The kind of debt that America is in probably won`t be paid off in our lifetime or our even our great great grand children`s life time. People better learn to pay themselves first.
  138. Profile photo of RandomEgg
    RandomEgg Male 13-17
    307 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 10:45 pm
    We should have hired MacGeyver to take out Saddam. He could have done it with a paperclip and a chewed shoelace.
  139. Profile photo of amaqdrinker
    amaqdrinker Male 18-29
    2245 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 10:46 pm
    when the government just prints billions of dollars its like they just spit in the face of every poor person in america.
  140. Profile photo of amaqdrinker
    amaqdrinker Male 18-29
    2245 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 10:47 pm
    and our economy went to sh*t because of greed, plain and simple.
  141. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 10:51 pm
    Amaq:
    no, our economy declined because of stupidity in a few major districts, namely the financial district.

    The financial district kept giving mortgages and loans to people who were not qualified to pay those back. They lost capital. Losing capital means they did not want to loan more money, because they were getting less of it.

    1) New businesses could not be formed as easily
    2) Payrolls could not be paid as easily (many businesses take out loans every month to pay workers, then pay it back once profits are yielded) <-- both in existing and new businesses
    3) Banks lost credibility, so less people wanted to borrow.

    4) When this happens, people dont want to spend money because it`s risky
    4a) hording money causes businesses to stagnate
    4b) hording money restricts banks from gaining capital.

    Then it all stagnates and repeats itself.
    And what do you mean, printing money is "spitting in the face of the poor?"

  142. Profile photo of USFEmoGirl
    USFEmoGirl Female 18-29
    1437 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 11:08 pm
    12charmaxxx
    Male, 30-39, Canada
    34 Posts Monday, February 23, 2009 8:48:01 PM
    "You sound so ignorant. Stop talking."
    You sound pathetic. Stop breathing.

    Just ignore me. Let your bubble of false hope block out the facts. It`s not your job to think, since most Americans simply can`t, their brain having long been replaced with the mainstream media telling them what to think. Don`t be angry at people who can see this, just go on continuing to provide the world`s entertainment. Everyone has a role, your role is to contribute to the downfall of thought, as is the average American.

    Wow - how wonderful of a person you are. So much hatred, ignorance and stupidity. Thank you for being alive to make people like myself feel so much better about ourselves.

  143. Profile photo of USFEmoGirl
    USFEmoGirl Female 18-29
    1437 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 11:13 pm
    On a Canadian two dollar bill, the flag flying over the Parliament Building is an American flag.

    Just wanted to drop a random funny fact.

    You guys are awesome! I`m finally leaving work so thank you and goodnight!

  144. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 11:17 pm
    " It`s not your job to think, since most Americans simply can`t, their brain having long been replaced with the mainstream media telling them what to think."

    Thanks for that sweeping generalization, and a false one at that.

    Contrary to elitist Europeans` beliefs, there ARE intelligent Americans.

    Please don`t act superior to us, simply because you believe you are more "aware" than every single American ever born into existence. *sarcasm*

    Please... you think Americans are the downfall of thought?
    Thought has been in a downward spiral for a long long while, before America was even known to Europe.
    Acting so pompous and superficially superior to Americans, I`m sure, is contributing to this "downfall" of thought you refer to. :)

    If you were truly wiser than us, oh mighty one, you would be humble in your knowledge; not bitter.
    Read some basic philosophy or something.

  145. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 11:19 pm
    I wanted to clarify something though:

    I said "elitist Europeans," and I did not mean to generalize Europeans as elitists in any sense.
    I meant to talk about Europeans of which I would refer to as elitists.
    Europeans are not elitist.
    Americans are not illogical, dumb, prehistoric cavemen.
    Europeans have elitists and dumb people, just as Americans have elitists and dumb people.
    I do not mean to imply any assumption or generalization myself.

    That is all.

  146. Profile photo of Cashcleaner
    Cashcleaner Male 18-29
    319 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 11:43 pm
    USFEmoGirl, you need to check your sources before posting fun "facts".

    The flag atop the Parliament Buildings on the discontinued Canadian 2 Dollar Bill is the new Canadian Flag. You`re thinking of the flag on the old 5 Dollar Bill which is actually the Red Ensign Flag which was once an unofficial flag of Canada.

    But nice try, anyway.

  147. Profile photo of Negative_One
    Negative_One Male 30-39
    2583 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 11:43 pm
    Seriously you guys, who cares? Take your opinions and GTFO.
  148. Profile photo of Lycrian
    Lycrian Male 13-17
    15 posts
    February 23, 2009 at 11:50 pm
    good thing i live in australia xD
  149. Profile photo of Lionhart2
    Lionhart2 Male 40-49
    8306 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 12:15 am
    I don`t care HOW deeply in debt the USA is, what I want to know is when its going to pay me back!
  150. Profile photo of barrooo
    barrooo Male 30-39
    414 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 12:18 am
    "Americans are not illogical, dumb, prehistoric cavemen."

    Are you sure?

  151. Profile photo of Thetas
    Thetas Male 18-29
    1540 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 12:34 am
    There are pro and con arguments for us being in debt. There are no serious consequences. We have always been in debt and we always will be. It helps keep the economy going and it`s good for those with short term investments.
  152. Profile photo of Eichenkatze
    Eichenkatze Male 18-29
    780 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 1:22 am
    barrooo
    Male, 30-39, Europe
    54 Posts Tuesday, February 24, 2009 12:18:16 AM
    "Americans are not illogical, dumb, prehistoric cavemen."

    Are you sure?

    -------

    Suck it. Period.

    The only thing with stuff like this topic is the fact that we as individuals see a VERY small amount of money, even upper-class don`t even come close and only the richest of the rich truly get a taste (and a small one at that) of what the government handles.

    the 2009 budget for the united states is 2.4 trillion dollars. Thats $2,400,000,000,000.00
    Most americans consider a person well-off if he/she earns $120,000.00 ...

  153. Profile photo of beternal
    beternal Male 18-29
    2589 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 1:49 am
    And the reason for the Iraq war?! - no one can ever give me a good reason for it.
  154. Profile photo of Maksie99
    Maksie99 Male 18-29
    695 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 1:51 am
    Reading this makes me glad to be a European.
  155. Profile photo of GothicQueen
    GothicQueen Male 13-17
    4376 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 2:16 am
    God this is why I hate posts like this. It always turns into some "well my country is so much better because....." debate. And ya know what drat it..drat it all. drat America, drat Europe, drat Australia, drat Africa, drat Asia, drat EVERY OTHER GOD DAMNED COUNTRY. God can`t we all at least try to pretend to like each other because fact is every country has done it`s share of crap and no one is better than anyone else. So cut the elitist crap because it gets old.
  156. Profile photo of ESQUEIRO
    ESQUEIRO Male 30-39
    134 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 2:42 am
    geez gothic queen, did the tampon get stuck again?

    well, people can be as snobby and put down the US as much as they want, but I for one believe we`re all in the same boat, no matter where we`re from. except africa, cause their boat sunk long ago

  157. Profile photo of Makaveli2779
    Makaveli2779 Male 18-29
    5 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 3:22 am
    thats actually very frightening
  158. Profile photo of lilhawk2892
    lilhawk2892 Male 13-17
    221 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 3:25 am
    @gothic queen.

    what do other countries doing bad poo have anything to do with the US being trillions in debt?

  159. Profile photo of boogersunite
    boogersunite Male 13-17
    197 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 3:28 am
    this comment nationalism/everybody hate America chain is sorta like how lots of American and Australian movies portray Russian women as mono-browed men with boobs
    and so i believed that
    and then i went to Russia and most are unbelievably hot
    preconceived ideas suck
    rite on eichenkatze
    and shut up gothicqueen
  160. Profile photo of boogersunite
    boogersunite Male 13-17
    197 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 3:28 am
    o and imagine what would happen if we all asked for our money back?
  161. Profile photo of dirty_blue
    dirty_blue Female 18-29
    75 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 3:45 am
    I wish I was Congress!!! I mean the spending loads of money on stuff bit... I`m gonna shut up, I don`t know what Congress is... and something tells me they`re not well liked! Ahem...
  162. Profile photo of SarahJ86
    SarahJ86 Female 18-29
    495 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 3:47 am
    "And the reason for the Iraq war?! - no one can ever give me a good reason for it..."

    It was never about MWD, nobody ever believed there were WMD - but it was always about getting rid of Saddam Hussein and the WMD claim was the best way to get some dubious support for it, legally. That much is now officially admitted and known. The exact reasons we will probably not get for a good couple of decades. Ive got a masters in War Studies, Im in the industry now too.. and Im not even close to knowing.

  163. Profile photo of dirty_blue
    dirty_blue Female 18-29
    75 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 3:48 am
    ... Oh, and I sort of agree with Gothic Queen, Englands in a right old mess too. I admire her attempt to get people together and not be against each other... Gothic Queen ftw!!! :)
  164. Profile photo of s0rd3dvis1on
    s0rd3dvis1on Male 18-29
    2388 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 5:34 am
    at least this proves the price of oil wasnt worth the cost of obtaining.
  165. Profile photo of mal_BB
    mal_BB Male 18-29
    1231 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 5:34 am
    The truth is that we`re all in the poo. Britain is going to be around £2.2 trillian in debt by the end of the year, which, considering we`re a small island, a hell of a lot smaller than the us, is quite scary. Our merchant bankers made the mistake of lending too leniently too; which went along way to causing the problem.
  166. Profile photo of lucehLOW
    lucehLOW Female 18-29
    357 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 5:38 am
    I KNEW THIS!

    yes i bloody did!

    proud.

    xlucyx

  167. Profile photo of ChainsawNbud
    ChainsawNbud Male 50-59
    741 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 6:08 am
    Crap like this is why I`d rather have a beer than think about the national debt.
  168. Profile photo of a1butcher
    a1butcher Male 40-49
    4809 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 6:10 am
    to:USFEmoGirl
    The Canadian $2 bill does not have an americain flag on it. What you see is the old Canadian flag with a union jack in the corner.
    Just wanted to enlighten you on that point.
  169. Profile photo of Quackor
    Quackor Male 18-29
    2856 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 7:14 am
    a million bucks a day! wow! thats like 3 dollars and change for every american!
  170. Profile photo of BBQ
    BBQ Male 18-29
    467 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 7:54 am
    Heh-heh. Where I live we haven`t really seen the effects of this "so-called" crisis..

    ... Oooooh! *Financial* crisis you say? Yea, we`re way deep into that.. Thought you meant the "lack of shoes"-crisis..

  171. Profile photo of HOLYCRAP1234
    HOLYCRAP1234 Male 13-17
    1468 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 7:56 am
    GothicQueen:God this is why I hate posts like this. It always turns into some "well my country is so much better because....." debate. And ya know what drat it..drat it all. drat America, drat Europe, drat Australia, drat Africa, drat Asia, drat EVERY OTHER GOD DAMNED COUNTRY. God can`t we all at least try to pretend to like each other because fact is every country has done it`s share of crap and no one is better than anyone else. So cut the elitist crap because it gets old.
    ---------------------------------
    ... Asia`s not a country.
    Neither is Africa or Europe.
  172. Profile photo of NowPleaseRea
    NowPleaseRea Male 70 & Over
    176 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 8:11 am
    Just to pay the INTEREST on the national debt requires all federal taxes collected until mid may of each year.
    This is the New Economic Serfdom. In the olden times serfs lived on the landowners estate and paid the upper 1-2% of the population a fee off the top of their earnings. It`s much cleaner now. The wealthy who supply the debt moneys to us no longer have to look at or smell us as we got about out labors. They just have direct deposit from our paychecks in the form of federal income tax. The repugnicans like this automatic transfer of wealth and actively encourage it. Mission Accomplished for the corporate gangsterism of 8 years of Bush Inc.
  173. Profile photo of warmst
    warmst Male 30-39
    17 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 8:17 am
    Beternal: reasons to invade Iraq
    * Iraq`s noncompliance with the conditions of the 1991 cease fire, including interference with weapons inspectors.
    * Iraq`s alleged weapons of mass destruction, and programs to develop such weapons, posed a "threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region."
    * Iraq`s "brutal repression of its civilian population."
    * Iraq`s "capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people".
    * Iraq`s hostility towards the United States as demonstrated by the alleged 1993 assassination attempt of former President George H. W. Bush, and firing on coalition aircraft enforcing the no-fly zones following the 1991 Gulf War.
    * Members of al-Qaeda were "known to be in Iraq."
    * Iraq`s "continu to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations,"
  174. Profile photo of warmst
    warmst Male 30-39
    17 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 8:17 am
    beternal also:
    * The efforts by the Congress and the President to fight terrorists, including the September 11th, 2001 terrorists and those who aided or harbored them.
    * The authorization by the Constitution and the Congress for the President to fight anti-United States terrorism.
    * Citing the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, the resolution reiterated that it should be the policy of the United States to remove the Saddam Hussein regime and promote a democratic replacement.
    there you have it the reasons to invade Iraq, took me all of two seconds to find it
  175. Profile photo of AnImbroglio
    AnImbroglio Male 30-39
    838 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 8:20 am
    No, it`s like a quarter of a penny for every American a day. 250,000,000 americans, X 1/250, = 1,000,000. Math skills rock, huh folks.
  176. Profile photo of Mindless2164
    Mindless2164 Male 18-29
    499 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 8:50 am
    warmst, and you clearly see how much that`s paid off to everyone. THE ENTIRE WORLD is screwed up.
  177. Profile photo of kairobert
    kairobert Male 18-29
    1623 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 9:19 am
    Your system fails
  178. Profile photo of SarahJ86
    SarahJ86 Female 18-29
    495 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 10:18 am
    Warmst... theyre the claimed reasons. Most of them have only been cited in order to find a semblence of legal justification. And the only reasons they have been cited is because Blair warned Bush that such reasons needed to be given to get acceptance. The day after 9/11 Bush said, as has now been proven with documentation - that he was going to `kick some ass` in Iraq. Even though, clearly, Afghanistan was the only place to invade legally.

    They aren`t necessarily the real and truthful reasons. Im not a conspiracy theorist, I dont believe oil was anywhere near the top of the agenda. But after studying Iraq for 4 years while I was at uni - Im sceptical of the truthfulness of many of the reasons you stated.

  179. Profile photo of Boredx12
    Boredx12 Female 13-17
    1654 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 10:21 am
    hahahaha! Capitalism fail!
  180. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 10:34 am
    "Your system fails"

    "hahahaha! Capitalism fail!"

    If that`s true so will the rest of the world.

  181. Profile photo of Frankii
    Frankii Female 18-29
    437 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 10:45 am
    Please do not start having a go at capitalism, I can remember someone talking about capitalism being wrong. Now what was his name? Ranin? Fanin? STALIN! That`s it!
  182. Profile photo of Hansbo
    Hansbo Male 18-29
    901 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 10:49 am
    Wow, I would love to be the country that all other countries` debts belong to.
  183. Profile photo of littlepete50
    littlepete50 Male 18-29
    1358 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 11:00 am
    Frankii, i have to agree,
    Ive literally just spent the last few months studying the Russian Revolution in history class, and lenin and stalin had some good ideas (stolen from marxism), but in this world, true communism can never be acheived because of the greed of human beings. So all you neo-commies can just get your coats and do one
  184. Profile photo of SarahJ86
    SarahJ86 Female 18-29
    495 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 11:01 am
    "Please do not start having a go at capitalism, I can remember someone talking about capitalism being wrong. Now what was his name? Ranin? Fanin? STALIN! That`s it!"

    .. because of course if you don`t like capitalism you are clearly just like an evil dictator. He wasn`t a real Marxist.

  185. Profile photo of megann_exoh
    megann_exoh Female 13-17
    688 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 11:04 am
    and to all the peens complaining about capitalism, communism is nice on paper, but works jack shizz in practice. and also, look at china. they have the big ass cities which are evidently richer than the crappy little villages in outer mongolia or wherever.
  186. Profile photo of scottk6
    scottk6 Male 30-39
    36 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 11:06 am
    Gothicqueen: technically, America isn`t a country either. The United States of America is a country. The two Americas are also continents.
  187. Profile photo of amaqdrinker
    amaqdrinker Male 18-29
    2245 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 11:14 am
    "The financial district kept giving mortgages and loans to people who were not qualified to pay those back. They lost capital. Losing capital means they did not want to loan more money, because they were getting less of it."

    actually they backed themselves up with loans from other banks, so even though the people were screwed they still got their money. the banks wanted more money and the people wanted houses they couldn`t afford. it was greed.

    "And what do you mean, printing money is "spitting in the face of the poor?""

    to save the system that has screwed the poor we magically make money while they live off of food stamps.

  188. Profile photo of SarahJ86
    SarahJ86 Female 18-29
    495 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 11:14 am
    Megann, Littlepete, Frankii.. Just because people do not like Capitalism, or see flaws in Capitalism doesnt mean that they are Communist or believe in Communism.

    As economic systems - they are just two possibilites out of dozens and dozens.

    But I agree with a lot of the spirit of what you have said.

  189. Profile photo of Frogtango
    Frogtango Male 13-17
    1720 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 11:37 am
    D: Jesus must be rich
  190. Profile photo of yoimmylene
    yoimmylene Female 13-17
    2065 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 11:54 am
    Holy crud. That`s a good way to put it. O.o
  191. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 12:31 pm
    Amaq.

    They sold tickets to other banks, transferring bad loans and mortgages to make up for lost money.
    The financial district still loses money.

    Selling claims and tickets is not greed, it`s making up for losses; it`s helping fix stupid mistakes. If the banks were making money, they wouldn`t have stagnated.

    Printing money does not create wealth, it lowers the value of the dollar.
    So no, printing money does not somehow spit in the face of the poor.

    We`re creating paper currency. We`re not creating wealth by printing money. There`s a big difference.

  192. Profile photo of h0ax_d3m0n
    h0ax_d3m0n Male 18-29
    2513 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 12:45 pm
    There was absolutely no need to mention jesus.
  193. Profile photo of amaqdrinker
    amaqdrinker Male 18-29
    2245 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 1:04 pm
    i feel that that is just semantics hwkiller. so no one is at fault, especially not the people in power. if the stimulus plan works, we are just reviving a corrupt system and even adding a central government with considerably increased influence and power. american capitalism is disgusting.
  194. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 1:10 pm
    The latest stimulus plan with GM is ridiculous, in my opinion.
    We should encourage competition. By letting GM fall, we would encourage better cars to be made by other companies.

    We cannot do that with the financial district, as easily anyway. We can`t really let some of them fall.
    However, I think we should force them to pay the government back in years to come, which would encourage smart banking rather than encourage the concept of "oh, we can just keep on giving out loans if the government can support us."

    How are we adding a government?
    How are they gaining power? just because the auto makers are "obligated" to work under their supervision?

    That COULD be a good thing, even if it is true. Might not be though.

    There are better, cheaper ways though, to stimulate the financial district and the economy though... I feel the government just took the expensive easy way out.

  195. Profile photo of amaqdrinker
    amaqdrinker Male 18-29
    2245 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 1:19 pm
    i understand where you are coming from, but the entirety of it just disgusts me. i feel that we reaped what we sowed and should adapt ourselves as a nation rather than trying to save this broken system. in reality, however, i know that that never has and probably never will happen.

    and yeah i realized that central government sentence was sh*t, but you got my point. should have been "...and even adding power and influence to the central government."

  196. Profile photo of dragonshadoz
    dragonshadoz Female 18-29
    4031 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 1:31 pm
    Oh, America.. what have you gotten yourselves into?
  197. Profile photo of hwkiller
    hwkiller Male 18-29
    490 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 1:39 pm
    My opinion, I suppose, is my classic analogy:
    I feel we started out with plans for a cabin. This cabin was an excellent cabin with some future allowance. The problem is, we`ve tried to glue Popsicle sticks to it in an attempt to make a mansion. Our government is far too big for the framework laid out for it.

    I believe over 50-100 years, we should go back to the very basics, the constitution, and rebuild our system into a more organized entity... we need to PLAN for a mansion if we`re going to have one... if that makes any sense to anyone.

    Too much govt spending is within itself in a disorganized clutter of organizations and bureaus.. and obligations... and the list just goes on. We need to reorganize the whole, to make a more efficient government. It`s a cluttered, inefficient mess right now. The core is good, we just need to incorporate that into a new building structure, so to speak.

  198. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 1:56 pm
    All of you are so negative according to the changelings Obama`s gonna fix everything while taking on the forces of evil all by himself!! Look he`s getting ready..
  199. Profile photo of Concetra
    Concetra Male 18-29
    2050 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 2:04 pm
    "Oh, America.. what have you gotten yourselves into?"

    Same shananigans different day

  200. Profile photo of jar-head
    jar-head Male 13-17
    596 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 2:57 pm
    PMC`s are the Future of War, lets just hope it doesnt end like the Roman empire.
  201. Profile photo of BeatleBonker
    BeatleBonker Female 18-29
    19 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 4:29 pm
    ....I`m moving to Mars.
  202. Profile photo of mrpopenfresh
    mrpopenfresh Male 18-29
    1036 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 6:25 pm
    Thats a pretty good diss.
  203. Profile photo of mypreciousss
    mypreciousss Female 18-29
    134 posts
    February 24, 2009 at 8:32 pm
    thats what i`m talkin about chattanooga! <33 loveeee
  204. Profile photo of Tiredofnicks
    Tiredofnicks Male 30-39
    5097 posts
    February 25, 2009 at 2:42 am
    On a slight tangent: I`ve heard a few rumors about the general public in the US which I`m not sure is true or not, and I was hoping that you could help me clarify that.

    Rumor #1: The average US citizen have seven credit cards.

    Rumor #2: The credit limit when applying for a new credit card is set by your previous credit limit.

  205. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    February 25, 2009 at 5:42 am
    VV Well I can help you with #1 I have one credit card and a debit card and I`ve never paid interest on my credit card I alway pay it off before it begins. As for #2 I`m not sure what they go off of for credit.
  206. Profile photo of Dr4k
    Dr4k Male 18-29
    575 posts
    February 25, 2009 at 6:21 am
    I have one credit card that I almost never use.
  207. Profile photo of Dr4k
    Dr4k Male 18-29
    575 posts
    February 25, 2009 at 6:23 am
    Yay indescribable debt!
  208. Profile photo of gorgack2000
    gorgack2000 Male 13-17
    4682 posts
    February 25, 2009 at 11:26 am
    Even if you support the Iraq war for moral reasons, you have to admit that it screwed up the economy by a huge amount.
  209. Profile photo of Mantistador
    Mantistador Male 18-29
    2200 posts
    February 25, 2009 at 4:08 pm
    our fall will come eventually... and when it does... England here we come!
  210. Profile photo of Smiley-Guy
    Smiley-Guy Male 13-17
    30 posts
    February 25, 2009 at 6:15 pm
    Stimulus Bill was ok but it apparently had a lot of "pork" and as for the Iraq war, i agree w/ gorgack2000
  211. Profile photo of eskimo9
    eskimo9 Male 18-29
    703 posts
    February 25, 2009 at 10:54 pm
    MachTurtle - 734,380,000,000 actually is 7.34E11 ... and i dont think you can complain about it not being 7.33285 since the numbers are way too epic to bother being pedantic. And now, why is there a recession?
  212. Profile photo of kairobert
    kairobert Male 18-29
    1623 posts
    February 26, 2009 at 6:58 am
    "First - kairobert - you are saying that having a Parliamentary Monarchy is better?! I understand that you are 13 - 17 but that still doesn`t explain the fact that you have not expanded your mind. Please, gain some more knowledge prior to making a comment like that one. In a few years you shall see - capitalism far exceeds any other government. Period. All have their flaws - however our capitalistic society trumphs the other options available."

    First
    The nationalist fumbnucks of IAB deleted my comment. I say "LOL".

    Second
    Understand that 13-17 does not mean 13-13.

    Third
    If your capitalist system is so great, how come that after over 200 years of fine tuning and development and nearly endless resources available, it still barely exceeds a wrongly executed system, created by a few years of debate and run by a makeshift bunch of corrupt, poor administrators?

  213. Profile photo of Jaydeejj
    Jaydeejj Female 70 & Over
    713 posts
    February 26, 2009 at 11:25 pm
    JAI HOOOOOO!
  214. Profile photo of dioxin
    dioxin Male 18-29
    91 posts
    February 27, 2009 at 6:30 am
    i mean, germany is poor, but the US tops everything good luck fixing that!
  215. Profile photo of spastically
    spastically Female 18-29
    61 posts
    March 2, 2009 at 5:28 pm
    ho man. the US is fooked!
  216. Profile photo of Minicow
    Minicow Male 18-29
    59 posts
    March 8, 2009 at 4:22 pm
    People really don`t understand the debt. At all. It isn`t a big deal.

    You get that? IT ISN`T A BIG DEAL.

    Once more: THE US NATIONAL DEBT IS NOT A BIG DEAL. IT IS NOT A SERIOUS ISSUE TO ANYONE BUT THE IGNORANT.


    Fact is, the US GDP has been comfortably outgrowing the debt for pretty much all of our history (aside from spending (and thus debt) spikes like wars and this stimulus package), and currently our debt to GDP ratio is, in fact, one of the smallest in the first world. Britain, for one, is around five times as heavily indebted, per capita, as the US is, and because Americans have higher incomes, the overall ratio is even worse.

  217. Profile photo of Minicow
    Minicow Male 18-29
    59 posts
    March 8, 2009 at 4:26 pm
    The debt doesn`t give China any power over us, either, contrary to popular opinion. They can`t "call" the debt, like you always hear about. And in fact, the debt gives us quite a bit of power over China. The worst they can do to us is dump their US Treasury Bonds, which, being the surest investment known to man, will be quickly gobbled back up by other banks, and, worst case scenario, perhaps force us to sell bonds at a slightly higher rate for a little while, perhaps costing us a few billion dollars. China, on the other hand, will have lost perhaps hundreds of billions due to having to sell bonds on the cheap, and will have lost the only thing keeping their currency from suffering massive inflation. The damage China would suffer from dumping their bonds could be as bad as total economic collapse.
  218. Profile photo of nonamewillfi
    nonamewillfi Male 13-17
    1404 posts
    November 24, 2009 at 7:03 pm
    wow we really fuucked

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